The Pacific Fleet suffered some amazing peace time disasters on the California coast. You also had the Honda Point disaster that cost the Navy 7 new destroyers about 6 years later.
The superstition about 'three on a match' is often a reference to the belief the third soldier lighting his cigarette would be shot by an enemy marksman.
It was less of the magic of the number 3, but more of a timing guideline or warning that the time needed to have a match lit long enough to light three cigarettes was enough time for a sniper to locate, aim, and fire.
Ditto... on all three elements of the statement that I am commenting. The salvage of the S51 and its place in salvage history is a good story (On the Bottom). A major figure in that salvage went on to do a fascinating salvage job of a port in the Red Sea in WWII... another great story (Under the Red Sea Sun). The sinking and salvage of the Squalus, her renaming, and her subsequent contributions to WWII in the Pacific is also a good story. Perhaps you will treat us with these at some time? Yes. I've read about them. But somehow you always manage to find interesting new twists and viewpoints that make even familiar history more interesting.
День тому+2
30 or so yrs ago I took my son to a sub in Portsmouth Nh. There was an old man there maybe 90. Was one of the men rescued offshore in a sunken sub. It was wonderfull to be able to talk to him.
Thanks so much for this. I live in Eureka now, and this wreck is fairly well-known. The very last remains of the Milwaukee are still visible at very low tides, along with some of the salvage structure, although I myself have not seen it.
You should have went into how the modern supsalv (supervisor of salvage for the Navy) was to come about! That would have been a good add on. Thanks for the great content.
For me the visual of a "submarine rolling on logs for a mile on the beach" is the "punch line" to this story. It's only a sentence or two in this video, but shows a creative solution and makes this a real "Fish (squid?) out of water story". lol An easy story to enjoy since no one died. I love this story and thank you for covering it.
I live in Eureka & know of this wreck, which is still partially visible at very low tides. While going through some old photos that were taken during my mother's parent's trip to Eureka from Sonoma County in the late 1920's, I found a picture of the Milwaukee wreck still very visible off the beach...
THG, did the person responsible for the decision to bring the Milwaukee in near shoals, in spite of locals saying that it was inherently dangerous, suffer any repercussions such as loss of command?
No, no one was ultimately held responsible. Lt Newton, in temporary command of the Milwaukee was charged, but the war shifted focus snd scattered witnesses and no trial was held. Lt Commander Bogusch of the H-3 was disciplined, but the penalty was minor and was later reversed. The commandant of Mare Island, responsible for the salvage, Captain Frank M Bennett, seems to have faced no consequences, and was given command of Division 4 of the Atlantic Fleet at the outbreak of war.
@@TheHistoryGuyChannel Thank you for the response. The depth of your research is impressive. It no longer surprises me when you have an answer to tangential questions.
This reminds me of something a Chief Petty Officer I once worked for in the US Coast Guard used to say: *_"There is NEVER enough time to do it right THE FIRST TIME, but there is ALWAYS enough time to do it right THE SECOND TIME."_*
Amazing story. I knew nothing of it. The Navy's equivalent of " . . . here, hold my beer." Presumably a career death knell for a number of ship's captains.
@@davidk7324 The Commanding Officer (C.O.) is ultimately responsible for everything that happens on board. In addition to every junior Officer who was involved in an incident can be reprimanded or even punished.
I’m sure someone else will have mentioned this but, the ‘three strikes of a match’ was from the WW1 as it gave time enough time for a sniper had enough time shoot the flame.
@@TheHistoryGuyChannel really? I thought until the Prussia rifles were in common use it was aim and hope. There again the Austrian rifles had a better range, but they still pushed the troops into the Prussian Los because they were taught that method.
The History Guy, my grandfather (South African) was in a WW II engineering division, and he told me that there was once a pilot on patrol who decided to cleared out all his ammo. By doing this he accident shot down a Japanese plan with a high official onboard. I would appreciate it if you confirm such an event or was it just a story.
Back when the History Channel actually did history, they ran a show about the killing of Japanese Admiral Yamamoto. He was on a mission to Rabaul to review the strategy there, and the US found out about it because they had broken the Japanese codes. It was too good an opportunity to pass up: A flight of P-38s were sent to intercept and shoot down Yamamoto's plane. If I recall correctly that show did an interview with one of the P-38 pilots, who said that, while he was on approach toward Yamamoto's flight, he "cleared his guns", just to be sure they wouldn't jam. This action ended up hitting the bomber Yamamoto was on, and it crashed, killing all aboard. This may be what your grandfather was referring to. However, I admit that I only heard this story one time, and I may be mixing it up with some other military action, since other accounts of Yamamoto's death don't mention it. It would be interesting to know for sure, one way or another.
Many Americans accustomed to the current power/capability of the USN do not realize it was a 3rd or 4th rate navy in 1898 (Spanish-American War) and still 2nd rate, at best, when this event happened. Much is made of the earlier sailing of "The Great White Fleet" as show-the-flag imperialism, but it would be more accurate to say that it was an exercise of learning to operate as a fleet rather than idiosyncratic squadrons.
There isn’t any scientist who would look at two submarine accidents and say they couldn’t be a third that doesn’t mean they believe the sub is unlucky, they just believe it’s broken.
I remember being very upset about making a $5k mistake when working for a insurance company. A co worker that formly worked as utility co manager told me to relax. In his experience he would see many bad calls that would cost millions... 😮
Sir. You are incorrect. The cat owns you. Proof? Tabulate the services and materials that it provides for you and that you provide for it. Food. Litter. Vet bills. Security. Hairball cleanup....
We have a log written by one of the rescuers of the crazy sequence of the H3 the event was written exactly as you told it here. I found the little book at a flea market. It was actually a small notebook he took from the H 3 . They called Capt.Newton fig newton ., The book goes on to his adventures on the Cheyenne and then to the Atlantic on another ship ,a destroyer in chasing German u boats in the channel and Irish sea.
A suggestion for another video related to the Navy, Coast Guard and submarines? The loss of USS S-4 on December 17, 1927 as a result of surfacing directly in the path of USS Paulding, a Navy four stack destroyer temporarily serving as a Coast Guard cutter is history that needs to be remembered. There is an excellent account titled “Seventeen Fathoms Down” written by Joseph A. Williams. Williams first became interested in the event while working as an Assistant Librarian at SUNY Maritime College’s Luce Library. There he came across artifacts from the commanding officer of the Spaulding.
The name "Moran" as a Puget Sound shipyard might ring a bell to anyone who has visited Rosario Resort on Orcas Is. As the Resort is located on the Moran Family estate.
Although not related to submarines, my great great grandfather was a tank gunner during World War Two. He always had a superstition where he would light a cigarette and put it butt side down. It was until one day where they encountered an enemy tank regiment and his commander was killed due to being such an ass to everyone on board. He made it out with minor injuries along with the rest of his crew, except the commander. I don’t know what his regiment was. All I know his last name was Clark.
I'm a little surprised that those bidding to salvage H3 weren't required to submit plans. Certainly, had that happened, the low bid pan would have seemed reasonable and likely to succeed.
A story and adage that is as old as time, "Penny Wise and Pound Foolish". It needs to be tattooed on the walls of many businesses and the DOD where 'lowest bidder' is a battle cry.
Hey Lance, not everyone can speak cat, which is ok, but I’m gonna help you out. He says: “Stupid human, put me down. I don’t want to be in your videos and stop using me as a prop for your sponsored content. Unless you are willing to pay scale then that will be ok. Also, I will require my own trailer and a production assistant. Give into my demands or so help me I will absolutely wreck the sofa.” Geessh, what a prima donna.
And we think of the Afghanistan Withdrawal as a Monty Python comedy of errors and waste of money. Well. OK that was a _LOT_ worse, but apparently the US military has had some experience in how to make a perfect disaster much much worse. 😅
Instead of blaming the accident on the bad luck of the number 3 they should have blamed in on the bad skill of the captain who grounded it 3 times in a row.
If you think you will save money by doing it yourself, just pay a professional double and you will still save money. --Jaime Andrews, "World's Dumbest."
75k costs versus 4 million in Great War era dollars, god damn now that's a major example of being penny-wise and dollar-foolish! Yes I changed that old idiom to the USA currency, so sue me! ;P
I live here. You can still go to the beach and see pieces of the Milwaukee stuck in the sand today.
Aww DUUUUDE! Spoilers!
me too. I've read about this story and my favorite part is the hubris of the Navy to not accept Mercer-Frasier's offer. Trust the locals!!!!
The Pacific Fleet suffered some amazing peace time disasters on the California coast. You also had the Honda Point disaster that cost the Navy 7 new destroyers about 6 years later.
" The Coasties saved the Squids".........epic.new CG motto !!!
The superstition about 'three on a match' is often a reference to the belief the third soldier lighting his cigarette would be shot by an enemy marksman.
First light, attention.
Second light, aim.
Third light, BANG!
It was less of the magic of the number 3, but more of a timing guideline or warning that the time needed to have a match lit long enough to light three cigarettes was enough time for a sniper to locate, aim, and fire.
Three strikes and you're out; but, third time's a charm.
The three-on-a-match came from trench warfare in WWI.
In the 60's my sister's used to say third on a match gets pregnant.
I'm a Submarine Veteran and I found this very interesting. Thank you!
Ditto... on all three elements of the statement that I am commenting.
The salvage of the S51 and its place in salvage history is a good story (On the Bottom). A major figure in that salvage went on to do a fascinating salvage job of a port in the Red Sea in WWII... another great story (Under the Red Sea Sun).
The sinking and salvage of the Squalus, her renaming, and her subsequent contributions to WWII in the Pacific is also a good story.
Perhaps you will treat us with these at some time? Yes. I've read about them. But somehow you always manage to find interesting new twists and viewpoints that make even familiar history more interesting.
30 or so yrs ago I took my son to a sub in Portsmouth Nh. There was an old man there maybe 90. Was one of the men rescued offshore in a sunken sub. It was wonderfull to be able to talk to him.
I remember hearing about this as a kid. Also some of the rusty wreckage is still visible and the Salvage company Mercer Fraser is still around today.
Thanks so much for this.
I live in Eureka now, and this wreck is fairly well-known.
The very last remains of the Milwaukee are still visible at very low tides, along with some of the salvage structure, although I myself have not seen it.
Good morning History Guy and everyone watching. To all my fellow Shipmates both past and present, thanks for your service. OS1(SW/AW) USN Retired
Classic management decision on the Milwaukee
Huzzah for the History Cat!
You should have went into how the modern supsalv (supervisor of salvage for the Navy) was to come about! That would have been a good add on. Thanks for the great content.
"Three on a match" is a real thing - the enemy sees the strike, takes aim on the second, and fires on the third.
Deepest Thanks to THG for sharing your knowledge with us!❤❤❤
Holy cow! Incredible! I do enjoy what you do Sir!
Thank you History Guy
For me the visual of a "submarine rolling on logs for a mile on the beach" is the "punch line" to this story. It's only a sentence or two in this video, but shows a creative solution and makes this a real "Fish (squid?) out of water story". lol
An easy story to enjoy since no one died. I love this story and thank you for covering it.
The structure of the USS Milwaukee can still be seen on low tides, it does not hurt the surf perch fishing.
@ 08:12 The stuck sub is ABOVE San Francisco, not below.
Great story. Thanks!
Very interesting. We learn from our mistakes.
"We learn from our mistakes."
We SHOULD learn from our mistakes, but often we don't.
We should also learn from the mistakes of others.
I live in Eureka & know of this wreck, which is still partially visible at very low tides.
While going through some old photos that were taken during my mother's parent's trip to Eureka from Sonoma County in the late 1920's, I found a picture of the Milwaukee wreck still very visible off the beach...
THG, did the person responsible for the decision to bring the Milwaukee in near shoals, in spite of locals saying that it was inherently dangerous, suffer any repercussions such as loss of command?
No, no one was ultimately held responsible. Lt Newton, in temporary command of the Milwaukee was charged, but the war shifted focus snd scattered witnesses and no trial was held. Lt Commander Bogusch of the H-3 was disciplined, but the penalty was minor and was later reversed. The commandant of Mare Island, responsible for the salvage, Captain Frank M Bennett, seems to have faced no consequences, and was given command of Division 4 of the Atlantic Fleet at the outbreak of war.
@@TheHistoryGuyChannel The US Navy always covers for it's brass hats.
Yes. All commanders that run aground are always fired often with mandatory retirement and reduced rank.
@@TheHistoryGuyChannel Thank you for the response. The depth of your research is impressive. It no longer surprises me when you have an answer to tangential questions.
This reminds me of something a Chief Petty Officer I once worked for in the US Coast Guard used to say:
*_"There is NEVER enough time to do it right THE FIRST TIME, but there is ALWAYS enough time to do it right THE SECOND TIME."_*
Time *_and_* money!
As an MK1 I used to tell the Second's and Third's that I was lazy. Doing it right the first time meant I didn't have to work twice.
One of the funniest stories I've seen here, though really it shouldn't be.
A nice little parable about hubris.
Nice to see your Co-Star helping out.
Amazing story. I knew nothing of it. The Navy's equivalent of " . . . here, hold my beer." Presumably a career death knell for a number of ship's captains.
No, not really. The only one to be disciplined was the submarine commander, and his punishment was revoked.
@@davidk7324 The Commanding Officer (C.O.) is ultimately responsible for everything that happens on board. In addition to every junior Officer who was involved in an incident can be reprimanded or even punished.
Thank you for the lesson.
These Navy “experts” must have trained the Navy “experts” who helped roll over the Normandy at her dock in NYC
OK. I'm here for the cat. What a cute tux kitty! Please consider him as a guest star from time to time. He(?) is adorable.
His participation is entirely up to him.
@@TheHistoryGuyChannel LOL! As a long-time... dare I say historically long-lived cat person, I totally get that.
Fortunately, the Navy did learn how to do salvage. In the late 30s, they pulled a sub off the bottom and reused it.
Are you referring to the USS Squalus (SS-192)?
@@richardcline1337 Yes, "The Silent Service" show has an episode on that.
I’m sure someone else will have mentioned this but, the ‘three strikes of a match’ was from the WW1 as it gave time enough time for a sniper had enough time shoot the flame.
It started in the Crimean war
@@TheHistoryGuyChannel really? I thought until the Prussia rifles were in common use it was aim and hope. There again the Austrian rifles had a better range, but they still pushed the troops into the Prussian Los because they were taught that method.
@TheHistoryGuyChannel Did practical, mobile matches exist in the Crimea War?
@@Svensk7119In the Smithsonian Magazine, they write that "Lucifers" (friction matches) were sold from 1829, a few decades before the Crimean War.
@ yes, friction matches were common in the 1850s. Numerous sources say that the superstition originated in the Crimean War.
I hope Squarespace is paying extra for the kitty's sponsorship!
Good talent is expensive
Cheers from a Wisconsinite!
The History Guy, my grandfather (South African) was in a WW II engineering division, and he told me that there was once a pilot on patrol who decided to cleared out all his ammo. By doing this he accident shot down a Japanese plan with a high official onboard. I would appreciate it if you confirm such an event or was it just a story.
Back when the History Channel actually did history, they ran a show about the killing of Japanese Admiral Yamamoto. He was on a mission to Rabaul to review the strategy there, and the US found out about it because they had broken the Japanese codes. It was too good an opportunity to pass up: A flight of P-38s were sent to intercept and shoot down Yamamoto's plane.
If I recall correctly that show did an interview with one of the P-38 pilots, who said that, while he was on approach toward Yamamoto's flight, he "cleared his guns", just to be sure they wouldn't jam. This action ended up hitting the bomber Yamamoto was on, and it crashed, killing all aboard.
This may be what your grandfather was referring to. However, I admit that I only heard this story one time, and I may be mixing it up with some other military action, since other accounts of Yamamoto's death don't mention it. It would be interesting to know for sure, one way or another.
@@fyrequeene Thank you.
Many Americans accustomed to the current power/capability of the USN do not realize it was a 3rd or 4th rate navy in 1898 (Spanish-American War) and still 2nd rate, at best, when this event happened. Much is made of the earlier sailing of "The Great White Fleet" as show-the-flag imperialism, but it would be more accurate to say that it was an exercise of learning to operate as a fleet rather than idiosyncratic squadrons.
Great, informative history!
Great video, HG...👍
You should mention the Honda Point disaster... that is a fascinating story like this one.
My great grandfather served on an H class submarine.
Semper Paratus! The USCGC is often mocked by the Navy until they’re called upon to risk their own lives to save others.
You might want to explain the nautical term “in irons” . It might help those non- nautical among us as to what happened.
@@jdphelps1 In Irons refers to being placed in handcuffs.
@@RetiredSailor60 That is one meaning, but in nautical terms it means stalling while sailing into a headwind unable to maneuver.
Thx you! 🇺🇸
There isn’t any scientist who would look at two submarine accidents and say they couldn’t be a third that doesn’t mean they believe the sub is unlucky, they just believe it’s broken.
I remember being very upset about making a $5k mistake when working for a insurance company. A co worker that formly worked as utility co manager told me to relax. In his experience he would see many bad calls that would cost millions... 😮
I love The History Guy. And I love your cat.
I appreciate you and thank you for making content.
Love your videos
''...physical yr nineteen-ten...'' om🤣
Hey from Indy. ❤😊
As an owner of a tuxedo(black and white)cat myself , I approve of this video.
Sir. You are incorrect. The cat owns you. Proof? Tabulate the services and materials that it provides for you and that you provide for it. Food. Litter. Vet bills. Security. Hairball cleanup....
Good story.
We have a log written by one of the rescuers of the crazy sequence of the H3 the event was written exactly as you told it here. I found the little book at a flea market. It was actually a small notebook he took from the H 3 . They called Capt.Newton fig newton ., The book goes on to his adventures on the Cheyenne and then to the Atlantic on another ship ,a destroyer in chasing German u boats in the channel and Irish sea.
Third on a match is a dead man. Strike gets the sniper’s attention. Second light, he takes aim. Third light, bang.
Good morning
You have a very distinguished looking tuxedo cat with that cute little mustache 😊
A suggestion for another video related to the Navy, Coast Guard and submarines?
The loss of USS S-4 on December 17, 1927 as a result of surfacing directly in the path of USS Paulding, a Navy four stack destroyer temporarily serving as a Coast Guard cutter is history that needs to be remembered.
There is an excellent account titled “Seventeen Fathoms Down” written by Joseph A. Williams. Williams first became interested in the event while working as an Assistant Librarian at SUNY Maritime College’s Luce Library. There he came across artifacts from the commanding officer of the Spaulding.
That's a good looking cat!
The Navy is as the Navy does!! This does not surprise me at all.
The name "Moran" as a Puget Sound shipyard might ring a bell to anyone who has visited Rosario Resort on Orcas Is.
As the Resort is located on the Moran Family estate.
Lyle guns (invented by CPT Lyle of the US Army) and breeches buoys (essentially a life ring sewn into a pair of short trousers) saved many people.
From Sturgis, SD: I sure enjoy your history commentary. Thank you.
I live in Lead! Greetings, neighbor!! 😆
$4 Million in 1917 would be akin to $98 Million today.
I hope someone got fired, but knowing the Federal Government, probably not.
I suspect any US Navy ship would be considerably more than that today.
Haw-ser! Not how-sir!
Although not related to submarines, my great great grandfather was a tank gunner during World War Two. He always had a superstition where he would light a cigarette and put it butt side down. It was until one day where they encountered an enemy tank regiment and his commander was killed due to being such an ass to everyone on board. He made it out with minor injuries along with the rest of his crew, except the commander. I don’t know what his regiment was. All I know his last name was Clark.
Governments and businesses both often afix themselves to a narrative that they cannot change.
History Guy, could you do an episode on the USS Jefferson City running aground underwater off the coast of San Diego?
Sometimes you have to cut your losses before they have been realized...
I knew about the Squalus incident, but not these.
Third time's a charm.
👍👍
Good morning all!
I'm a little surprised that those bidding to salvage H3 weren't required to submit plans. Certainly, had that happened, the low bid pan would have seemed reasonable and likely to succeed.
Love the cat - I have one who has very similar colouring, although she's a female and rather smaller.
A story and adage that is as old as time, "Penny Wise and Pound Foolish". It needs to be tattooed on the walls of many businesses and the DOD where 'lowest bidder' is a battle cry.
Hey Lance, not everyone can speak cat, which is ok, but I’m gonna help you out. He says:
“Stupid human, put me down. I don’t want to be in your videos and stop using me as a prop for your sponsored content. Unless you are willing to pay scale then that will be ok. Also, I will require my own trailer and a production assistant. Give into my demands or so help me I will absolutely wreck the sofa.”
Geessh, what a prima donna.
I guarantee you that it would be very obvious if Pocky did not want to be held. He is well paid in cuddles and kibble.
A bad or inept crew can seem unlucky indeed
Humboldt County California is timber country and moving the H3 was akin to moving a cut redwood out of the forests.
The crew was unusually negligent. H3 was not an unlucky boat except that the crew was lackadaisical about their duties.
Love the final math - spent 4+ mil to (try to) save 18k, then fail spectacularly, only to pay the 18k anyways.
Black and white cats are the best
@@labattomy his name is Pocky.
@@TheHistoryGuyChannel. He looks like a cool dude! For some reason they seem smarter than other cats
4:50 "December 13,1916" was it a Friday?
No; a Wednesday.
Today Salvage equipment and highly specialised salvage companies exist that could have solved this problem. What a waste of resources.
And we think of the Afghanistan Withdrawal as a Monty Python comedy of errors and waste of money. Well. OK that was a _LOT_ worse, but apparently the US military has had some experience in how to make a perfect disaster much much worse. 😅
- Why does the cat have a look of disgust as you hold it ??
Cats have other expressions?
@@Pygar2 hahaha
Can you do history of smoking products
Beautiful Cat! Meow!
People that think things are bad luck or cursed need to remember. In an infinite universe all things are possible and have probably already happened.
I wonder how many people got fired over this series of blunders.
Instead of blaming the accident on the bad luck of the number 3 they should have blamed in on the bad skill of the captain who grounded it 3 times in a row.
If you think you will save money by doing it yourself, just pay a professional double and you will still save money.
--Jaime Andrews, "World's Dumbest."
You might still be able to catch the rusting sharp remains of the Milwaukee at Samoa Beach near Eureka CA. Just don't surf near it!!
Three on a match was the sniper would see the match as first guy lights smoke, second guy he takes aim and shoot third guy
As the old swedish saying goes: "Avarice deceives wisdom".
Feeding the algorithm
75k costs versus 4 million in Great War era dollars, god damn now that's a major example of being penny-wise and dollar-foolish!
Yes I changed that old idiom to the USA currency, so sue me! ;P
Couldn't this be chalked up to the Garfish (H-3 that being renamed business invites bad luck too) was just a 'Wet Navy' ship like the Wilie D?
1:39 🐈⬛😻
All ships that change the name are UNLUCKY. NEVER CHANGE THE NAME. From the KEEL UP.
In terms of superstition, there is no culture more superstitious than sailors.
December 13, 1916 was a Wednesday, anyway.
$18,000??? Nah, Lets blow $4,000,000 🤣