Building a Wheel of Time Outrigger Story
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
- While at WoTCon, I got to be on a panel discussing ideas for a Wheel of Time Outrigger -- a story that happens after the end of the books. So let's go over the ideas we came up with!
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The part of Min having a viewing with two possible futures for Mat's daughter is BRILLIANT!!!
I have one suggestion about this: The image of Min's viewing is... wait for it... A COIN. One one side Mat's daughter is free and happy as an Aes Sedai, on the other she's weeping an miserable as a damane. Mat is The Gambler, and the future of his daughter's life is the ultimate gamble. Which side will the coin land on?
Oh my god, this is brilliant!
Just building on this but- the vision is of Mat flipping a coin. One one side is his daughter as a damane and on the other side is his daughter as an aes sedai. Mat catches the coin, but Min can't see which side it landed on.
Brilliant, absolutely brilliant! Would enjoy hearing more for sure! Thank you for all that you are and all that you give to our WoT community! Blessings to you always!! ❤ Cheers, Marcus
Thank you for how you keep the fandom updated with WOT news. I just backed the kickstarter quad collection.
Here's an idea (I think I started fleshing it out at the panel but now your video has helped me put the pieces together better!). Min has the bifurcated viewing about Mat's daughter and only shares it with him, and he concocts some way to keep her safe until he can be sure she won't get enslaved. But then, Elaida has a foretelling about the same thing, which becomes the inciting incident for a plot to rescue Elaida before she can be brought to Tuon and forced (via the Oaths) to recount it to her, at which point Mat's cover story for why he's kept the daughter safe would be blown.
Oooooo this is getting dangerously close to a WoT fanfic let's goooo
I would make sure that Alivia in the outrigger story involving the Seanchen. Her knowledge of their culture and being the strongest of the female channelers is very important.
The other terangreal Elayne made a bunch of were dream ones. A'dam that imperfectly allow the damane into t'a'r could lead to a lot of different plot possibilities, from spirit Egwene to sneaky meetings and/or yoinks into Tremalking
Oooh, this is such a cool idea!!
This would be a great book
This so full of great ideas, and I love the vision of two futures for Mat and Tuon's daughter. It puts him in a position to grapple with his BS views of Aes Sedai, and it capitalizes on his affection for children (and does the work that his OWN SISTERS being channelers should have done). And the inclusion of Elayne's Talent and Egeanin running an underground railroad? Mwah, chef's kiss. Now I'm absolutely devastated that this isn't a real novel.
The outrigger novel I would want is a story about Aes Sedai and Ash'aman working together to hunt down Dreadlords who survived the Last Battle. In my head cannon, the Red Ajah would be repurposed to work with the Ash'aman. It could star Pevara and Androl. Or 2 new characters
I've always thought both groups would go co-ed, the red and green ajah would join the asha'man and the men who want no part of being used in a military capacity would become aes sedai.
the point of the white tower since its creation was to keep knowledge of DO/TG alive and to prepare for it.. with TG over, they would have to transition back into being servants of all, instead of shepherds and tyrants.
What instead of two possible visions it is just their daughter wearing the collar. But it turns out to be one of the copied tampered with collars from Elayne and she over then manages to break free and reclaim Seanchan and abolish slavery. Matt would still want to secret her away as a child. Would need some big time jumps to make it work though.
I also want to see the changes Egwene made to the tower unchanged and see the real life consequences on the world building. The tower could be so powerful. And we would see a race between the tower and the seanchan to control new territories
I love the idea of Elayne making faulty a'dam, especially ones that eventually make sul'dam channel. Rescuing Elaida is a great idea too. To be fair, a fake a'dam that is not a ter'angreal would be useful for a one-off rescue mission.
Perrin also actively contributed to slavery by helping the Seanchan capture hundreds of Shaido Wise Ones. WTF Perrin!? This guy is supposed to be a hero? I think a good outrigger plot would be him getting into trouble for this.
I have another post-canon idea: a suspicious Whitecloak tricks Galad into drinking forkroot tea and when he wakes up, he's informed that he's fired. I'd love to see their reaction to that revelation - what better choice for a Lord Captain Commander than a man who can channel? I'd imagine that a lot of them would personally respect Galad but still support making potential new recruits drink forkroot tea to prevent such a scandal happening again.
Mat's a difficult character. We never really get much of a baseline on him, because he picks up the dagger so early on. And it's important to remember that it's beyond the Aes Sedai's abilities to 'cure' him of the dagger's influence; all they can do is break the bond, not roll Mat back to a previous version. The holes in his memories don't get filled in until Rhuidean, and while in Tar Valon, he experiences his first flashback of someone else's death. So when the holes in his memory do get filled, they're basically filled with other people's PTSD.
Frankly it's kind of amazing Mat doesn't spend Fires of Heavan onward in a foetal position, weeping.
Tuon's daughter is Murbella, nice. I' kinda thought of her as the mother of the reincarnated Artur Hawkwing, @Lezbi Nerdy, but this works as well.
I’ve put some thought into early 4th Age WoT. First of all, I think I want Mat to be older before his redemption arc, middle-aged at least. I want him weary and full of regret. But I’ll get back to him.
For the White Tower, I want Cadsuane to be Amyrlin for just a few years before she dies of old age. Nynaeve is selected to be the new Amyrlin. Elayne reveals that she’s devised a new Oath Rod that doesn’t reduce lifespans. Aes Sedai and Ashaman alike take oaths, but they are new Oaths for a new Age. One of the new Oaths is to not aid or give away secrets to those that would enslave or destroy channelers, and its taken as soon as possible (no waiting to be fully raised). The Blue Ajah, instead of letting its members arbitrarily choose the causes they champion, becomes focused on the abolition of slavery.
Back to Mat. I too have thought he needed to be faced with the murder, execution, or bondage of at least one channeling child to get him to do something about it. What I’d have him do is go to both Towers and offer his full assistance. For them to accept, he submits himself to Logain for testing, and he’s found to be able to learn to channel. He’s also required to be bonded to one of the Blue Sisters, Alivia.
Now the question of how Elayne gets away for an adventure now that she's queen.
she gets kidnapped, duh
As Cadsuane is the Amyrlin Seat, what does Cads think of the mission to rescue Elaida. This is not the type of mission that can be done without Cads knowledge. You have Aes Sedai involved in this plan
We decided that Leilwin/Egeanin did not tell Cadsuane what they found, so they are actually doing it without Cads knowledge
I love this conversation. I totally agree that the cards scene is Matt hanginf out with admitted rapists. Minimum 1 likely more than. Fully enraged me from the very first time I read it. I also agree that Mats personal growth arc goes straight into the toilet in the last couple books. I have a slightly different take on Mat's personal flaws/ areas for growth. I always read Mat's arc as centering around a bit of an inferiority complex, he never believes he has any authority or right to speak up. His growth (RJ writing exclusively) begins once he cant escape the Band. When he is playing cards he is revolted by the young lords and their behaviour but he still sees himself as a farm boy who is sneaking into places he's not supposed to be. So he actively represses his instinct to impose what he knows to be right. As soon as he is forced into/given authority he creates the redarms to keep stricter behaviour protocols and protections for everyone around him. He grows further once Oliver arrives and by that point he no longer views lords as outside his ability to reprimand and he actively lets those shitty young lords get beaten with a cudgel for their behaviours. The entire kidnapping plot sets Mat perfectly up for what should have been his continuous growth arc, giving him the exact experience he needs with Tuon to have him see himself as on her level regardless of her title. (The Tylin situation in it's disgusting way also gives him the growth of truly not seeing titles or money as a deciding factor in who he has to obey). He was even beginning his growth in regards to Aes Sedai during that arc, seeing them as women who can sometimes need protection, human enough to play a practical joke on, not very different than other women because he begins his relationship with Setalle Anan being just an inkeeper that he respects. I firmly believe that Mats redemption arc was well set up, it was just poorly executed at the end. An outrigger novel would have been an excellent way to finish his arc out. His initial fall is so steep, dark and early it makes poetic sense for his recovery to be gradual, impactful, and slow.
If the double viewing has her enslaved or as an Aes Sedai empress. I dont think she would divorce Matt but ahe would definitely try to kill him. If she tried to do that personally there could be a scene where they are fighting and she gets so upset she channels.
@Lezbi Nerdy, if you're talking about the conversation with Sunamon and Estean, I don't think they admitted to r-word. They were philanderers, true, and womanizers, but not necessarily assailants.
I'm going to quote the books here, it's pretty clear -
*"“Didn’t I say?” The plain-faced man squinted at his cards and scratched his head, then brightened. “Oh, yes. His proclamation, Mat. The Lord Dragon’s. His last one. Where he said commoners had the right to call lords before a magistrate. Who ever heard of a lord being summoned to a magistrate? And for peasants!”*
*Mat’s hand tightened on his purse until the coins inside grated together. “It would be a shame,” he said quietly, “if you were tried and judged just for having your way with a fisherman’s daughter whatever she wanted, or for having some farmer beaten for splashing mud on your cloak.”*
*The others shifted uneasily, catching his mood, but Estean nodded, head bobbing so it seemed about to fall off. “Exactly. Though it wouldn’t come to that, of course. A lord being tried before a magistrate? Of course not. Not really.” He laughed drunkenly at his cards. “No fishermen’s daughters. Smell of fish, you see, however you have them washed. A plump farm girl is best.”*
The context of the conversation was the Rand had made the law that peasants could bring lords to a magistrate for 'having their way with them'... that's rape. Mat makes a snide remark about doing that to a fisherman's daughter, and Estean says "no, not a fisherman's daughter, they smell bad, but a farmer's daughter."
Mat makes a snide remark about this about 'hangings' and keeps playing cards. (I'll quote again, just to make it clear: *"Mat told himself he was there to gamble. He told himself to ignore the fool's blather, reminded himself of how much gold he could take out of Estean's purse. His tongue did not listen though. "Who knows what it might come to? Hangings maybe."*
Would Mat have made a snide execution remark if he thought Estean was just womanizing these women? that doesn't make any sense ... I honestly can see no other way to interpret this.
@@LezbiNerdy Fair point, but I can also interpret that as simply stereotypes about what fishermen's daughters smell like. You could be very well right that he is admitting from personal experience, but i'm thinking the explanation of this donut hole thinking that's what fishermen's daughters smelling like a stereotype of what they think peasants smell like. He's an a-hole no doubt (I think one of them starts basing his marriage choice on the number of daughters each one has), but I don't think's its necessarily direct.
@@pueblonative *squint* bro that's about as direct as a signed confession. Estean may not have personally done it, even if "A plump farm girl is best" sounds confessional, but he thinks there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.
Here's the thing, even if (and it's a big if, it's a pretty clear statement) Estean wasn't confessing, Mat interpreted it as a confession. Otherwise Mat's "hanging" statement makes no damn sense. So Mat is sitting there, thinking that Estean is a rapist and thinking "calm down, don't worry about it, just keep gambling".
If you want to be charitable to Estean, then that interpretation is possible, but again, i see no way interpret the way Mat reacts to it that is anything other than Mat deciding to keep playing with a rapist
@@LezbiNerdy Also let's be clear, you very well could be right and Mat could be referring to an incident directly involving him. I just don't see it as a direct confession, which is also bad (Estean is only condemning the action based on the smell). Also, I think Estean is an asshole either way.
I love your speculation on what might have happened after the series ended. As always the enthusiasm you have for all things Wheel of Time comes through in your voice. That being said and in defence of Mat I think you are being a bit harsh on him. There is no doubt that the High Lords of Tear were a pretty unpleasant group and the way some of them treated the peasants was brutal and evil. That being said the Rand and co was trying to get the world ready to fight the literal devil and what might be the end of the world. Rand did what he could in the limited time he had in Tear without plunging the country into chaos and civil war. Likewise what was Mat supposed to do? Kill the offending High Lord? The bitter truth is that they needed the military and financial and political might of Tear. From memory part of the reason Rand when to the Waste was because a powerful group to support his fight against the Shadow without literally playing politics for personal gain. Before he had the Aiel on board I doubt very much if Rand would have thanked Mat for completely undercutting his position by turning the surviving High Lords & Ladies against them as he went around bumping off the nastier ones.
Later in the books Mat repeatedly said there was nothing he could do about the situation in Ebou Dar under Seanchan rule yet in the middle of an extremely dangerous operation to save the Aes Sedai you say he is so misogynistic towards, he took the time and added risk to free a damane windfinder. Yes, he knew she could channel and Mat has made no secret of his unease if not dislike for channelers. Yet at risk to his own life and wellbeing he helped who knows how many seafolk windfinders escape the collar because for all of what he might say and even think Mat is to my mind right up there with Nynaeve in doing what was right when he had a chance to and to hell with the 'big picture'. Otherwise he could have slipped out of Ebou Dar himself with his men with a lot less fuss and danger if he simply abandoned the Aes Sedai. Even when they escape Ebou Dar and the Aes Sedai continue to be a headache he continues to protect them instead of cutting them loose. For all his growing affection for Tuon who is a morally questionable character at best and all the grief the Aes Sedai were giving him he did not hesitate to free the Aes Sedai when Tuon arranged for them to be collared again.
I will admit Mat could have handled the meeting between Tuon and Egewene better but someone needed to remind both of them that the world was about to end and as much as they despised each other and what the other stood for the Last Battle should be every one's priority. I see Mat as the sort of person who might not like but can live with hearing about unpleasant things that are occuring out of his sight but its a different story when it happens right in front of him. With all that said I would not have been shocked to see Mat playing the part of the slightly rebellious Prince by day while secretly helping da'covala and even new damane get smuggled out of Seanchan lands to freedom. Finding out his daughter had the spark and would be collared would only add to the efforts he would put into his efforts. Mat has already demonstrated there is little he would not do for his friends. I dare say he would tear the world apart for his daughter.
I hope the above does not come across as too much of an attach on you or your outline. I have always enjoyed your content but in this case I think you are seeing Mat's character flaws without giving him proper credit for when he does what is right.
To answer your first question (I haven't read further yet) about what Mat was supposed to do -- it's really quite simple. The reason the lords were talking about it was because they were complaining that Rand had made it illegal to sexually assault peasants, one of the lords confesses (via innuendo, but it's pretty clear) that he had sexually assaulted peasants. Matt is Rand's friend. Tell Rand that this lord sexually assaulted peasants. It's not hard.
But like, at the very VERY least, stop playing cards with a rapist? Like that's the very bare minimum I hope to ask of anyone. Men need to learn that just side-eyeing predators isn't doing shit to help anyone. If one of your bros is a sexual predator, then they shouldn't be a bro anymore? Like, immedietely, that should end any relationship you have with them. Letting Mat off the hook for that is... well, it is alarming.
Okay, second point... he did not help the Windfinders just for fun, helping them helped him escape. I think it's good that he did that, but they were literally a part of his escape plan. That's why he asked them to wait. It wasn't a risk to his wellbeing, they were helping him escape. Again, it's good that he did it, I'm not knocking him for doing it, he's a hero for sure. But he had his reasons.
I will also say that helping rescue Aes Sedai (or any woman for that matter) in no way means you're not sexist towards them. Sexist men love the idea of saving damsels in distress. They love seeing women as damsels in distress. In fact, seeing them that way probably contributed to some of his sexist behavior towards the Aes Sedai. He saved them, they should grovel at his feet now, right?
He did help the Aes Sedai escape, I know... but again, do you remember the time when Tuon recollared them and he got mad at the Aes Sedai for being upset that she did that? He freaking spanked Jolene. Like, that's gross. Slavery is up there as far as crimes go (especially the slavery that the Seanchan do to channelers) with rape. I think most people would agree with that. It's just as abhorrent (especially the brand of slavery the Seanchan had with female channelers, it's completely degrading and dehumanizing). So instead of briefly re-enslaving them, imagine it as... well, you can fill in the blanks there. And then try and make Mat's response to it make any sense, and be in any way okay.
I think people like Mat a lot, and I get it, I like him too, he's super charming, but peoplelet him get away with a lot of stuff that if you imagine it in the real world would just be awful.
@@LezbiNerdy "Matt is Rand's friend. Tell Rand that this lord sexually assaulted peasants. It's not hard."
While Rand surely has the power to do so, punishing people for committing acts that were legal (no matter how despicable) when they occurred is not the way to keep them from rebelling against you.
"But like, at the very VERY least, stop playing cards with a rapist?"
Mat wasn't there to be their friends, Mat can't stand nobles. Without the above punishment, taking their gold is about the only punishment that Mat could actually perform. Just really depends on the reader as to whether or not it matters that Mat would've done it regardless of Estean admitting to being ok with those crimes.
You and I are going to have to just agree to disagree here. To me the very bare minimum, like the bar is literally the floor is when you are hanging out with someone and they confess to rape, you stop hanging out with them immediately... you don't talk to yourself to calm down because you could win more money (that's literally the reason Mat says to himself to calm down in that moment... the horror of rape is not as important as the fact that he could win money from this guy).
The bar is literally the floor.
@@LezbiNerdy I would agree that what the High Lord of Tear was talking about would be repugnant to anyone in the Two Rivers from what I gather what he did/was doing was perfectly legal in Tear prior to Rand changing the laws. I am not suggesting that this makes it right but one of the things I loved about the Wheel of Time is the moral complexity. Mat, Rand etc should all be horrified at what the noble was talking about but if I'm remembering it right I think Mat when he broke into the Stone discovered that one of the High Lords or at least someone high ranking actually had his quarters close to a torture chamber for presumably speedier access to said chamber. We were shown one or two instances of appalling behaviour but I suspect if a spotlight was shone on the other high ranging nobles we would find things they had done which we would be equally horrified about. I would have thought the instinctive response would be to ride away and never have anything to do with these terrible people again. Except how is that helping the servants or peasants etc. So they decide to stay for as long as they can and try and make things better. Do you wipe out/execute/exile everyone who is upper and middle management in Tear because the majority of them have done terrible things? The moral answer would be to say yes, but then the country falls apart as you have wiped out the management effectively. With the devil about to break loose soon and try and flood the world with human eating monsters can you afford that sort of chaos?
Put another way in our world the UK and the USA allied with the USSR against the Axis powers during WW2. Should the UK and USA have refused to fight along side the USSR because of all the terrible things Stalin had done and was continuing to do? If they don't allied with a political entity they are revolted by does that hand victory to the Axis powers who might even be worse?
On your point about Mat freeing the Windfinders as part of his escape plan I confess I never thought about it like that. It was my understanding that everything had been worked out regarding freeing the captive Aes Sedai and then Mat went off script to help the windfinders because of his conscience forced him to. I can see how the confusion and chaos caused by the Sea Folk escaping would certain distract the Seanchan from Mat’s party also getting away but I didn’t think Mat was thinking in those terms when he helped free the windfinder. That being said it’s a long time since I read the book so I could well be remembering it wrong.
I would have thought Mat's real moral failing would be sticking around with Tuon and the Seanchan after the Last Battle if it became clear that Tuon was not for bending at all on the issue of the damane and keeping people as property. With the world safe (at least from the Dark One) I can’t see how someone would justify staying with the Seanchan empire given what they do routinely to people.