Too Big For Most Locos & Burnt Out After 1 Day | Hornby's New HM7000
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- Опубліковано 29 бер 2023
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A full review of Hornby's new HM7000 Bluetooth DCC system for use with smart devices.
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0:00 Intro
5:02 Features
6:24 Unboxing
11:04 Decoders Don't Fit!
18:00 21 Pin Installation
19:10 The App
24:56 First Test
29:07 TT Loco Testing
32:13 Interruption Recovery Times
35:43 Range Testing
37:12 Using Standard DCC Controller
40:45 Pros and Cons
49:43 Decoder Failure - Авто та транспорт
Sam, regarding the functions, you don’t need to import a map. You can go to the function tab and setup your functions pages yourself. Click into each function and you can edit the name, icon, function number etc. You can also drag and drop the functions on the grid to rearrange.
Thanks Oliver, I'll have a look at that... would be much better if the functions were just there to push by default, as with every other controller!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
There are 2 major drawbacks with this system that I can see. You've touched on the first one with the size but it appears that Hornby have designed the decoder round their own locos and only their own. That means, as you have seen, the chances of it fitting anyone else's are slim.
Secondly, as this is a Hornby system, they control the sound files you can upload. Got a Dapol 59? Want sound for it? Sorry, not a Hornby model so you aren't getting it! Got a Bachmann 66? Want sound? Sorry but we designed the decoder so it won't fit in anyone else's models.
Hornby seem to exist to support their own models and get you to buy only those.
Thanks for sharing! Yes I'd say you're right on the first point... and only the TT locos at that, as I can't recall having any Hornby OO locos with a Next18 socket.
Agreed on Hornby's control of the sound files... but they stand to sell more decoders if they give some customisability to their customers... can't see what they've got to lose by not doing that!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Sam how long will they remain free to download? Other developers get market penetration then start to charge. There must be a cost to Hornby to record the sound files. So how long will they continue to subsidise modellers. Just asking!
Who's to say they won't release further sound files for non-Hornby locos? It seems logical that they would start with files for their own locos. Why would the decoder not fit in a Bachmann 66? There's loads of room in them.
@@mikewoods4177 That's a very good point!
I believe they are concentrating on sound files for their own locos first, which is fair enough.
Once they've done that then it would be good if they considered adding profiles for other locos or provided an option for people to add their own sound files. Whether that will happen I don't know, I guess it depends on whether there's an benefit to Hornby of doing so.
I know next to nothing about model trains but it seems like every hobby or profession has that one company - you know the one, they've been around for decades, make decent stuff, occasionally do something really innovative, but constantly make weird corporate decisions or products that don't work quite right. Watch collecting has Seiko; electronic music has Roland; and apparently train modeling has Hornby.
Used to be Dapol for a while but apparently they're making a turn around
What has Seiko done that didn't work?
Well there's also PIKO and ROCO if you can't buy hornby
@@Barnaby_bo their value on the low end has evaporated and their QA is garbage.
My local model railroad club here in the US has their layout set up with the dcc system through a secure wifi system to use both dcc controllers and smartphones. I used my phone to control my personal rivarossi allegheny, and though there were a couple of hiccups, it worked fairly well
Another good video, Sam. I am surprised that you did not start with the TT model or a recent Hornby one. I thought it was pretty obvious that Hornby designed this system with their locos in mind. Same as Bachmann and Dapol do with their chips although there will be some useful crossover. It will be more interesting to see if the other decoder manufacturers start to make compatible decoders. I think this looks like a great system with loads of potential.
Scot, as far as I know, the only other firm that makes decoders that operate with bluetooth is Soundtraxx in the US.They released their new Blu-nami decoders at the end of 2022. I do like the concept & hope Hornby won't take as long as Soundtraxx are to release the app for Android users.
The only reason that the decoders won't fit is that the pcb size is dictated by the antenna. If a version is offered with a separate antenna pcb the size issue would be solved
Interesting and informative review Sam. One angle that you didn’t mention is that, certainly an iPhone, is limited to 3 to 4 Bluetooth live connections at one time. This might be a deal breaker for anyone who wants to double head a couple of trains simultaneously on their layout.
& that's the point, Simon, iPhone are notorious for being unilateral - as are Hornby....unless the latter have a change of heart, I cannot see this getting off the ground, because it's (already) a self-limiting exercise....
It doesn't beat the click and turn of a good controller Knob but it's great that people have more choice.
Real trains are hard to get going & take a lot of planning to stop. Having instant response at the turn of a knob is a huge cheat around this.
So if you like driving trains, it beats a turn of a knob hands down. It depends on your preference doesn't it?
@TheRip72 I found it wasn't that hard to bring a peak to a stand at Chesterfield with 12 mk2s behind, But I kinda know what you mean.
"Tight is fine... as long as it fits!" No truer words have been spoken mukka. 😅
If these chips didn’t become self-fried and only come in large, these would be the perfect gateway for people like me on the fence between old reliable DC and ultra precise but previously expensive DCC. Very much appreciate as usual your thorough testing of absolutely everything with these!
I like the idea of Bluetooth, it seems to have potential.
Hornby will have to look at resizing the board, or maybe an extension lead so the Bluetooth board can be located elsewhere?
A dummy board would be good too, so we could try it for fit before purchase, to make sure we can fit them to existing locos.
Awesome idea! It's really hard to return a DCC chip after purchase as retailers often think you've messed around with it already
Yeah I do too - and while it worked this was really great to use! An extension lead would have helped a lot - reckon this could have fit into a few of the locos I tried if it had one!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains in the hornby livestream today they even said it could be fitted into a coupled wagon behind the loco. Not sure how you would connect it up though.
@@russcole5685 , did you watch all of the video, he went down 2 floors in his house and it still worked.
Hi Sam, I’ve enjoyed this very formative video. I noted your comment at the end, about the decoder burning out. Over the past 25 years or so, I have installed a range of decoders in my models, including TCS, Lenz, Bachmann, Hornby, NCE and ESU. Out of all these various decoders, the only decoders that stopped working for me have been the Hornby decoders, which do not seem to last the distance.
Hi Sam - ignore the negative comments. I thought this review was great! You are one of the most respected reviewers on youtube and had every right to call out some of these issues. Keep up the great work. This sort of review is why I come back to your channel and has (and will save me) many hrs and dollars building my collection. Respect. Wapp.
Why would any right thinking person ever think a review by an uneducated person was good? Sam doesn’t understand the technology behind this system, that’s pretty clear. The evidence is in his own video. You can convince yourself that an uneducated person telling you what to think in contradiction of the truth is a good thing or it could be you are in denial of reality
Sam has more education on these things than I can get by reading the selling brochures and the positive reviews by the various press and UA-camrs.
If I have to read the papers with the items plus a 200 page user guide and risk the thing burning out as at least two have, my commercial sense says wait and see.
If I add to that Hornby’s approach to the hobby, I am uncomfortable investing a few thousand pounds into converting my DCC ready locos to this system.
I was astounded by the vehemence of the model shops I contacted to buy some Hornby product recently. Sam is a fan boy for Hornby by comparison.
I then tried buying direct from Hornby, but individual postage for each coach in a rake of 4 wheelers and their dismissive reply made me realise just how much brand equity had been destroyed by the current managers.
That leads to loss of trust, so that plus the issues above means I am not going to rely on Hornby for the lifeline to operate my models.
@@mkaustralia7136 Are you saying you've tried 2 HM Bluetooth chips and they have burnt out already?! What were the circumstances? Thanks
Local Aussie retail Hornby prices & availability are influenced by exclusive distributor Southern Model Supplies. Getting anything sent from the UK or Europe is often expensive.
Great review Sam. Although I don't use or enjoy DCC much, I can definitely see the benefits to this system. As it's the first if it's kind it is understandable that there will be issues, but hopefully this will be a good first step for Hornby and other manufacturers to hopefully get the ball rolling, and bringing this hobby into a new age.
As has Lego, but in a much simpler form.
While everyone else is fiddling around, I am running my trains!!!
That was quite a bombshell at the end Sam, but thanks for being so diligent in your reviews. I hear some people say "Sam has bad luck with his loco's", but I think it's only because you put models through their paces and actually discover faults overlooked by others.
I tend to have similar levels of bad luck with my trains.
@@bjoe385 Me too 😢. You have my commiserations.
The 21 pin decoder size is within the limits of the NEM specification of the MTC21. This means that it will fit all locomotives with a MTC21 pin socket. This should cover 99% of all models on the market with the 21 pin socket.
You might be able to fit the Next18 non sound version. It is much smaller decoder.
NEM 662 covers the specs for the Next18 decoders and the dimensions for sound decoders are bigger than the ones for non-sound decoders.
Most of the ESU and Zimo non-sound decoders I've bought have clear shrink wrap to protect them. Hornby should consider that. Everyone should use an insulated screwdriver to avoid static.
And an earthing wristband, just like working with computer parts
The ESU decoders that are 8 pin ones have the shrink wrap but the 21 pin ones are bare.
As I have written elsewhere, I had the same problem with loading the sound profiles for Flying Scotsman. I think the Hornby server became overwhelmed, because when I tried it at 6am one morning, it worked fine.
These 18 pin decoders are really intended for locos designed for 18 pin, which so far is a category which is largely confined to TT120 ones. But I think the new Dublo Merchant Navy is either 18 or 21 pin, and I presume the new decoders will fit it.
I haven’t ventured into trying the 8 pin decoders so as to convert my 00 locos to TXS sound and Bluetooth control, but again, I assume the Hornby 8 pin TXS decoders will fit at least the majority of Hornby locos, and perhaps some other brands, and the pictures show that some components are on a separate harness.
As to burning out, I have been running three TT120 locos on this system without problems, using the Hornby 4 amp transformer, which I believe has short circuit protection? Are you sure your Powercab has? It looks like space junk from Apollo 13!
It’s very early days for a completely new system. Hornby freely admit it’s a case of constant development. They also have enough small locos of their own to realise that they will need to solve the chip size issue.
They do need t shrink their decoders, but do they make any small OO tanks with an 18 pin socket? All those Sam tried were from other manufacturers.
JMRI. I run JMRI on an old Windows 8 laptop and use an old Android phone running Engine Driver app.
Kept them out of a landfill with their new life on my railroad.
In the past I have dcc'd old locos with a pre wired 8 pin socket which you can then place anywhere in the loco body .I'm sure these are available for 6,21 and next 18. All it needs is a male to female extension with a 15cm ribbon in-between ,then you could place the chip elsewhere. Maybe someone will bring it to market.
I have never seen a 21-pin, Plux or Next decoder with wires. The whole point is that they are tidier with no wires hanging off & should be a standard size which should plug straight in. It is worth pointing out that the only Hornby 18 pin loco Sam tried was the TT120 Scotsman. The others were from different manufacturers.
There are already adapters Availiable from dcc concepts
Yes I get the point but if it doesn't fit then an adapter is the next best thing,thanks Roger
Very interesting review Sam! I assume it's also possible when using a DC power input, that you don't need to remove any other non-DCC Locomotives from your layout as long as you have isolated sections of track? Therefore you don't need to convert all your loco's at once, but as your budget allows for and still run both. It must be possible to station your Bluetooth loco (with sound off) and bring a DC loco out of a isolated section to run on the same track as the stationary engine. No more worries about damaging your locomotives!
Regarding the power loss and how long it takes to come back on is because it has to reconnect to Bluetooth as Bluetooth sometimes is slow to connect. This should use WiFi or WiFi direct which would be faster to connect. Bluetooth is slow and always will be. Great video as usual.
Bluetooth also has much less bandwidth then WiFi, which is why even things like Bluetooth headphones often cut out. There is particularly a known problem with Bluetooth on windows because of the bandwidth.
I really don't think people should be using Bluetooth for things that require complex controls. Even most gaming controllers use either USB or radio signals
that is so true, that's why i suggested this should use Wi-Fi or a USB dongle or something with more bandwidth than Bluetooth. @@Stettafire
Hi Sam, great honest review, this system looks very good, a lot of modellers use TTs decoders in Bachmann locos with great results, maybe Bachmann should invest and produce their own bluetooth system, going on what they charge for their items it would probably cost a kidney to buy one, hopefully somebody will produce a generic system for all manufacturers to use bluetooth.
I'm a big Accurascale fan, maybe they will bring out a bluetooth system in the coming years. By the way what burn out after one day?
it's at the very end of the video
It’s a case of each to their own with these. I won’t be using them having tried a 21~pin version because there is no finesse in the motor control. The sound as I perceive it is just the same as TTS in both the sound samples themselves and BEHAVIOUR of the sound. The chuffs are not spaced proportionally with the speed of the wheels - they simply play at certain fixed intervals so you can hear it ‘step up’ to the next set when the physical speed rises, rather than being gradual. Thus, you will never have the chuffs in sync with the wheels throughout the speed range. The extra cost of Zion and ESU is worth it to me because I can load my own sounds. Also, I could not tolerate such a long recovery time from a power outage. Thanks for the all the videos you put out.
I'm running HM7000 through an iPhone and Hornby Elite - the whole system works fine - no problems at all. It's very early days in what looks like a brilliant system. Sam - it might be worth doing a bit more homework and reading the manual before making some of your comments.
I think Sam Hornby designed these decoder to be fitted into there own locomotive, and not other manufacturers.
Cheers Jasper & Willow
If you're correct, it is a poor marketing decision because it would restrict sales.
Agree as Sam said, Sound Fitted would be dead as an option as even at a reduced price it would still not come with the smart phone app interface which seems superior to other DCC controllers.
Everyone else would have to improve, but in the meantime there are thousands of DCC ready locos which could be chipped if the owners desired.
Hi Sam,
I feel, as a DCC sound person, a few errors in your assessment of the Hornby decoder.
1) "Why would you buy from another decoder maker?" If you look at the major brands, ESU & Zimo you'll find they make various sizes of decoders to fit any size of loco. As you found with the Next18, only your D11 & TT A1 would accept it. The size of the decoder was a major issue. Add in the speaker plus a keep alive and you might find things won't fit anywhere.
2) Expecting to fit them in non-Hornby products or locos designed before these decoders were.. Again this is why I will be wary about using them over say a Zimo or ESU simply as Hornby have used a one-size-fits-all mentality.
3) Most ESU & Zimo decoders can play up to 8 sounds at a time. The new MS decoders from Zimo use 16 bit quality.
4) Soundtrax in the US released a similar Bluetooth system back last year. To date, there is still no Android app available, will Hornby be the same? Not everyone worships at the Church of the Bitten fruit!
5) Do you truly think Hornby will create sound set ups for competitor's locos? I highly doubt it to be honest. This, like the TT:120 are Hornby's own. I own a Roco Z21, the only function set ups i can get are either Roco or Fleischmann models from the last 10 years.
I do like the idea of the decoders, but the size, the lack of Android app & the tie-in to 1 manufacturer puts me off buying them.
Keep up the great work.
Excellent comments
Thanks for sharing! Yes the size of these (particularly the next18 one) is definitely a big con.
As for non-Hornby locos... very few Hornby locos have Next18 sockets... the two TT locos I have are the only ones as far as I know... so I assumed I might have been able to find a loco that could accommodate them... but no luck.
No, I don't expect Hornby to create sound profiles for competitor's locos, nor did I say I thought they would. What would be nice would be the option to customise/create your own profiles within the app... that's what I said!
Agreed, those are very offputting!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains I 100% agree with yr review. I loved it. We need more of this objective reporting in our hobby. So why aren't Hornby saying the Next18 is just for the new TT120 range. They need to spell this out ASAP. I had a H BT Next18 on order. sam thanks for the awesome efforts and review. I will be sending it back!
Hornby have stated android app will be available ''soon".
There are a lot of clever folks out there who I'm sure could mod the app and add their own sounds and dispribution them for free. The only potential problem is are those clever people interested in trains and hornby software.
@Cloudman "Soon" as I said Soundtrax released their Blu-nami decoders which have the same set up as Hornby the end of last year. To date, still no Android app. Over 4 months....
Sam- My guess as to why you lose control after loss of power under bluetooth is that when the power goes, you lose bluetooth comms to the tablet. It would take about that amount of time to recover bluetooth comm and regain control of the loco. You can see this type of lag when you drop other bluetooth devices and try to recover comms to them.
We were controlling our layout at Warley with smart phones, using a Raspberry Pi through a Sprog and with JMRI installed its all NRMA compliant and we had sound.
Personally i think this is a relatively new system so there will be issues and certainly the size could be fixed although adding bluetooth elements to sound elements means they have to go somewhere and that means a bigger chip. I'm not sure whether that means hornby locos are made with it in mind in future or not but certainly i can see other manufavturers scrambling to keep up. I believe there are other bluetooth chips in the US but it'll become more widespread over the next few years.
Just a note on next18 burn out. Handling these decoders has to be done carefully and making sure that you are earthed and don`t get the fingers touching across joints etc and depositing body oils which can short out the chip. The amount of times that decoder was tried in different locos ... tbh ... not surprised it blew. If handling instructions are provided (poor if not) they should be followed.
I was very careful with the handling, and if it'd fit into the first loco I tried, I wouldn't have been handling it as much. I didn't see any handling instructions. The decoder worked all day once fitted into the Scotsman. Not sure how body oils could short out the decoder over night, at least not at these low voltages, but I'm no expert!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
It's not possible to short components with "body oils" and it's also very unlikely that unearthed handling will do any damage. This is why manufacturers are happy to sell these bare boards -- if normal handling killed them the return rates would bankrupt them.
ive installed dcc in over 50 locos never have i killed a decoder by static and body oils aint going to do anything to a decoder
Hi Sam, By now there are many reviews on this new Hornby TXS - HM DCC system. What strikes me every time is the lack of insight for no one has consulted the 'Full Reference Manual' - let alone the 'Quick Start Guide'. So a lot of guessing and supposing and even pure nonsense (on a particular well known channel ) etc. I do recomment everyone to consult this very well written and well explained manual. It's a must to understand the 'system' - for help setting up - fine tune and then enjoy any loco you have equipped with a TXS decoder.
It's only normal that Hornby first provides this system for their own stock of locomotives but according to the latest life show other non-Hornby sounds will be released in the future. Downloading your own sound is excluded - understandable. Besides if you want to do this with systems as ESU and the like you need a serious investment in hardware to be able to do so. And yet not all sounds are free !
The problem with the size of the decoder can be solved using a cable Next 18 male / female or you could try to loosen the support board from the chassis. And hard-wiring is always a solution with the good old 8-pin version.. A con ? One need to be 'inventive' as we did and do with 'ready to repair' stock.
What no one mentions is that the chuff rate for steam locomotives is NOT synchronized. Explained in the 'Manual'. With all the high tech and possibilities of this new decoder this is a real let down. So high end ( read expensive ) decoders from the competition will remain for the 'purists' of fidelity to the prototype.
In the end you can't get a Lexus for the price of a 'deux chevaux'. But let's give Hornby and Hammond Morgan the credit to bring a system to the market with a lot of bells and whistles for a very reasonable price and without the need of expensive Command Stations that are outdated anyway. DCC with BLE is indeed 'the' future'. And this is only the start... Cheers, Filip
Come on, which channel is guilty of talking TXS nonsense?
Why is it understandable that you can’t download your own sound? They could make it so easy and another winner over the “old” way.
The idea is good. The realization by Hornbyy has some serious drawbacks, the worst of it being a closed and proprietary system.
@@OlivierGabin Well Oliver, Hornby is not a specific only 'Decoder producer' but a toy manufacturer and in that perspective their range of locomotive sound comes first. Other non-Hornby sound will follow - give it some time.
I'm still awaiting the Android version. Patience is required... Happy model railroading.
@@phil36310 Logical... I have skip the Android part (smartphone plus tablet for me). Wait and see...
Hi Sam . fitted a HM 7000 to a Bachmann class 37 Friday ( class 31 sound file ) read the instruction first .......Very impressed ...
Very glad to hear that! My 21pin decoder gave me no problems either, and it still works now too!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
👍👍Hello Sam, very good video! In depth and quite informative and well done. I'm from across the pond, I do enjoy and follow a number of UK modelers. I watched a video from Jenny Kirk yesterday covering the new Hornby Bluetooth decoders and App. It appears to be a very cost effective decoder and has all + more then most other manufactures. Here in America your going to pay over $100 for a decent decoder (just crazy) It will be very interesting to see if there are more issues with the decoder burning out in a day? I thoroughly enjoyed your video. 🚂🚂
I think il stay with dc
Not AC how new fashioned
I agree with you fully!
I have a DC layout but I’ll be honest, I think this kind of system is both an improvement and convenient enough for me to convert over to. I’m almost positive that the cons Sam has outlined here will be resolved in 12 months of further development.
You are missing so much staying with an antiquated system. This Hornby system might be flawed but there are plenty of other better functioning ones around.
@@johnhughes3796 I do have a gaguemaster DCC controller
I have a Hornby Coronation 8P that needs a chip. Maybe a Hornby Mallard. If they make this as an 8pin decoder I might give this a try.
I can see this working well for garden railways where its deadrail. I am thinking of buying 1 to install in my L guage Duchess and running of a 4 cell LIPO.
I have the dc Bluetooth controller, recently started to use it, no issues and seems to work fine
Sam, the size of the next18 board is defined by NMRA standards. There are two standard sizes, one for sound fitted and one for non sound fitted. Is the board actually bigger than the sound fitted standard? (Table 1 of the standard gives dimensions).
I've just answered my own question by downloading the hornby manual. It seems the board is longer and wider than the standard. Strictly speaking it is therefore incorrect for Hornby to call it Next18 compliant/ compatible.
Thanks a lot for looking into that for me! I suspected as much, as I couldn’t actually find a non-TT loco that’d fit!
@@SamsTrains Sam, you use decoder extension cables . In small locos decoders are often squeezed into tight spots away from the socket.
Nice little review Sam.
Is there any chance Hornby have got the exhaust beats right, or is that aspect stuffed as normal?
This is THE reason I can never consider DCC Sound - I need a really expensive DCC-S chip to permit correct beats / chuffs. All other sounds are likeable gimmicks - the exhaust is what's important on a steam locomotive.
Al.
Absolutely true!
Nice one Sam. As long as the prices remain keen, I can see a few older loco's coming out of storage for this system too. A great review, as ever, and thanks again. Cheers!
I generally fit stay a lives to all my locos, I normally use dcc concepts as you don’t have to be an expert soldier to attach to stay alive but size is certainly going to be a issue. Also in a garden layout 30ft probably isn’t that far, range would be something I would like to test further.
I think a major innovation is that you can run DCC Sound on what would normally be a DC layout simply by turning controller to max and using the app to control . So those of us who don’t want to go full DCC but would like to dabble with the occasional sound loco are catered for
Absolutely - that aspect really is a game changer isn’t it??
@@SamsTrains It is. Or, I would rather say, it would be once someone else than Hornby does this, DCC on BT.
I think it's brilliant you will need to measure the area your putting it but other than that it's amazing especially for the price!
I had a few issues with TTS chips burning out a few years ago. Hope these aren't as delicate as they are. The more expensive decoders have some level of protection.
Nice balanced review again, thank you for that. I ordered a Next18 sound decoder, intended to use in my Sonic A5 or Heljan NER Railcar. I'll see if it fits. Simon Kohler said however, that the next badge will be smaller in dimentions, so this is a possitive! Succes with getting a replacement for your decoder.
Did he say the next batch will be smaller for ALL chips or just the Next18? What you said is huge. I would wait. Where is that link to what Simon Kohler said?
The brake function is useful as you can set the chip up such that you can shut off the throttle and the engine will continue on its own simulated momentum. You can then stop the engine by pressing brake EXACTLY as you would on a real locomotive.
I also suspect that you turning the controller off and on may be causing a spike of some kind and confusing the chip. Is the controller a feedback type, if so due to the way they work they can confuse electronic things. Would be more representative to lift the loco clear of the track and leave the power steady.
No it isn’t a feedback controller - the switch just disconnects the power, in the same way that a cut out would!
@@SamsTrains worth a try to see if there's a difference, I have had electronic issues caused by switches in the past in industrial CNC machinery. Poor or burned contacts in the switch caused arcing and upset the electronic item "reading" that particular switch.
Just having a look at the tomix controller I've got and that after throttle off has continuous momentum, then brake applications in stages as per prototype enables different % drops depending on the brake applications. They're quite an art to use if you're used to the typical dcc/analogue user experience.
What happens if/when Hornby switch off the servers which host the updates, sound profiles and are required for the initial mandatory login?
I asked the question on Hornby's forum and a mod just locked the thread.
It's absolutely a case of "when". Hornby do not have a track record of maintaining old software they've produced. The fact that you need to log in to play with your trains is a hilariously stupid idea.
@@MrJoeyWheeler Hornby mentioned on their recent tube channel they will be try fixing this issue. We are lead to believe It was due to Apple accepting the app?
If the hornby servers stop working it will only stop you downloading new sounds it will not stop your already downloaded sounds etc from working on the app via bluetooth.
If hornby did stut down servers the a group could potentially get hornby approval to set up alternative server.
The 7000 sound decoders are a nice enough upgrade on the TTS decoder from the sound side that even without the bluetooth function and a good price.
If the bluetooth ever becomes unusable via the hornby app then there are relatively easy ways to use engine driver app to bluetooth control the loco and its sounds.
@@Cloudman572 this works until it doesn't. Look longer term. Sure you can use the app with no Internet today... Do we know how long the login lasts for without the app "phoning home"? A week? A month? Six months? Forever? Hopefully forever, but we can't verify that.
Let's go beyond that for a moment...
Your iOS device breaks because you dropped it (clumsy you), or maybe the battery gave out, whatever. No biggie. You go get a new one... Reinstall the app. Uh-oh, Hornby went bust/dropped support today for whatever reason. Now you can't sign in because the server is switched off. The equipment you own is now useless because it's all stuck in Bluetooth mode with no way to change it to DCC mode because you can't login.
Worse still, you can't even re-pair your decoder to the new device (even if you could login) as you need to get a one time code from customer services, who can no longer help you because Hornby has dropped support/gone bust. Hornby could have just put a small reset button on the device itself. They deliberately chose not to, to force you into relying on them.
That's a real shame as you purchased some sound packs you can no longer download (you didn't think all the new sounds would always be free, did you?)
If Google can drop services on a whim, then Hornby can do it as well.
The whole thing has been heavily architectured to *rely* on Hornby at every step of the way. Which means we need to rely on Hornby to always act in good faith and to stay in business forever for this stuff to work.
Are we expecting Hornby to support this thing and run it at a loss forever and a day? 5 years maybe. 15 years... Probably not.
At some point, these servers WILL be switched off.
Worse still, the Bluetooth protocol they are using is not open. It's all locked down to Hornby only.
One vendor, one choice. Imagine if DCC was designed like this... If it were open protocols it would matter a whole lot less.
Even worse is that Hornby have very clearly ignored the next18 standards and made the boards too large. Again, another deliberate move by them to lock you in.
I'll probably still buy one, admittedly. But I'll be keeping my eyes open for trouble on the horizon and I'll probably do the day-to-day stuff with DCC.
Go in with your eyes open to it: vendor lock in can be very expensive.
@@Cloudman572 Is the protocol used to communicate between the app and the decoder in the public domain then?
Good review. Like all new products pushing into new ground there will be a learning curve and teething problems for both manufacturer and operator. Adequate product testing and beta customer feedback should have minimised these and lead to product updates. I am sure Hornby will bring out software upgrades and improvements. 🤞
Great review Sam. It's amazing what we find when a new product comes into contact with the reality of a Sam's Trains review. I always wait until you have reviewed something before I decide to spend any money. Lots of hiccups which Hornby will need to fix, but other than hardware faults most of the system can be upgraded remotely as long as you can actually install the chip. A talking Thomas may one day be a reality! Keep up the great work, Allan. Hope you get a free replacement for the burnt out chip. 😂
@@Haymarket47 He certainly should.
It's been sent back already - I'm opting for a refund rather than a replacement, as I was hoping to use it in a OO loco ideally!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Perhaps reading the manual (the full manual online) before starting...
Decoder sizes to meet the various standards are defined very clearly - the problem here is that the Bluetooth decoders need an aerial and sadly that means an extra 10mm of circuit board (the blank bit at the end) which clearly pushes the limits of size - very sad that it does. An aerial socket and wire aerial (a la Arduino Giga) would fix this - just a thought.
Of course designing a loco so the DCC board fits across the loco width rather than along the length does handicap us all.
The sound profile issue is something that I've ranted about elsewhere on UA-cam... Sorry... There are good retailers with good sound libraries who could fix this issue but Hornby are insistent on keeping this in -house - a great shame.
Allowing specialist dealers to sell these decoders with their own sound schemes would fix this issue - a £65 decoder + £15 for installing a sound library is alot less than a £135 decoder with 'free' sound!
Having said all that - I now have a Class 37 (Hornby) with an 8-pin wired HM7000 decoder (direct wired) and an 11V LiPo battery that works great using Bluetooth on both Playtrains or any other layout so I think this is an amazing system.... (oh, but I'm using the Class 56 sound....)
I was asked for a Bluetooth conversion for garden layouts 10-years ago and this is the first viable solution since then! Well done Hornby! Now give us the sound solution and you can rule the world!
Sam, I think your expectation that this HM7000 will fit in a non-Hornby locomotive is unreasonable. The ‘other’ manufacturers never accepted a ‘requirement’ to accommodate the HM7000 decoder form factor that was unknown until a few days ago. I think a meaningful evaluation would have been to install it into a DCC-ready (I.e., 21-pin or Next18) Hornby locomotive for which a sound file has already been made available. If it fits in another manufacturer’s loco, we’ll, that’s great, but that loco was not designed to accommodate it.
It’s not unreasonable - DCC is a standard, and the box clearly stated that the decoder complies to all NMRA standards, The NMRA specifies standard decoder sizes, and this decoder exceeded them. So no, I wasn’t unreasonable, and I stand by my criticism of it for that oversight. The ‘other’ manufacturers designed their locos to adhere to the standards. Had Hornby done the same with their decoder, then all would have been fine.
My biggest concern is when will the app be discontinued, meaning that unless you left it in DCC mode, you just have a paperweight unless BT mode can be turned off with a CV or power cycle combination
Especially with some of my Diesels from the 1990s and earlier, including some of my Triang locos (Like the Class 35, where only one Bogie has pickups), where there's a lot of space inside the engine, it would be cool to get one of these DCC Bluetooth decoders specifically to get the power bank, as hiccups in the power are fairly common.
From what I can see, 6 pin and 8 pin versions are available, which would be the most ideal to retrofit engines from before including DCC sockets was a standard.
with luck the main benefit from this system will be to bring the prices of other decoders down to reasonably similar levels, the idea is a good one - even if the bluetooth stuff is only used for configuration of sound etc and not really running.
that said I can see a decent potential for these in "DCC Trainset" boxes, a prechipped sound locomotive with control over an app and not the "Select" controller could I think do pretty well
issue with burning out.. I guess this comes down to three things:
1. how common is it?
2. what causes it? (is it a design fault or is it poor testing causing the problem?)
3. how Hornby react to it when it happens
if the answers are "rare", "???" and "they replace them easily" its probably fine until they sort it out, new tech will have issues but if this is a case of the decoders are fragile in some way they are not really fit for purpose, if its a manufacturing and testing issue hopefully it can be resolved.
good review though as always, nice to see these things approached from basically a "does this work out of the box?" approach and not saying it worked but hiding all the fiddling needed
I think it's a "brilliant' idea as well.
I love my "Smart Phone", I love the way it tracks my every move and basically runs my life 🥰
The more things I can add to my "Smart Phone" and more it can control me, the more I love it🥰
do you use a bank card? that tracks you more than your phone, dont be fooled by the fear mongering
It is about seven or eight years since I saw the layout "Holcombe Brook and Tottington" at Wigan show with the locos all sound fitted and the layout being controlled by smart phones. The problem with the HM7000 is that the steam sound files STILL can't be synchronised to the wheels, which is basically is a kids toy. Serious modellers still need to pay about £100 for decent sound.
I think its a great idea. Dont know why its taken so long. I reckon too, once its on software, it opens up a whole new world. Want a full auto layout ? Forget rfid chips and readers etc, just mount a camera in your rafters and add vision software stuff to the app ? Tap on a location on your cam display, and say what you want the train to do when it gets there. Stopping at a station as an example 👍
TXS7000 8 pin fitted and working sweetly in a Bachmann Branchline 08 (32-115A 08021).
Very much a tight fit but very doable in that model.
Might have tried the 18 pin in a Hornby engine. I’m sure you must have one amongst your mass of engines or did you intentionally avoid that?
Which one fits?
No, I do t have one because all of Hornby’s OO locos are 8, 21, or 6 pin. The only Hornby locos with the socket (at least that I’m aware of) are the TT ones. The decoder doesn’t comply with the NMRA standard dimensions, that’s why it doesn’t fit.
I am on the team that prefers having some form of tactile experience controlling my trains
I Like using JMRI with a arduino and motor shield running DCC++. and the reason why it takes a while to resume is most likely due to Bluetooth taking its sweet time to reconnect to the decoder.
Bluetooth is a standard that anyone can follow. Hornby must be running a proprietary protocol on top of the Bluetooth to control the DCC decoder. It is this protocol, or something similar, that needs to be standardized and made available to all manufacturers. Hornby should do the honorable thing and allow NMRA to make the Hornby protocol into a, royalty free, standard that anyone can follow. This is what Lenz did when they released their DCC protocol to NMRA and that was hugely beneficial to the industry.
I use mine on my Lego Trains and they are amazing. Voltage is a-lot lower however.
If you have issues tell Hornby. I would suspect because they are lose in the box, it has become damaged.
Hi Sam
I think it would be a good idea to let Hornby know about all the faults and the size of the decoders not fitting in to the locos so they can sort out the problems looks a really good system but these are the type of problems they need to know about really good video and good testing of the items and explanations
He won't contact Hornby, he very very rarely does, only once that I can recall regarding the B12
It's called product testing. Hornby should have done all of that before releasing the chips to the market.
Just fitted a HM 7000 chip to a Bachmann 37,, the chip is no bigger than the one i took out and the sugar cube ( 4 different sizes) no problem and the power pack is no different to a standard stay alive .... GOING GREAT ...
@1tonyboat is the Class 37 sound profile on the App?
I'm pretty sure that Hornby will watch this and other review channels anyway.
They do seem tempting for larger scale outdoor layouts who use battery power. If you get a cheap dcc ready loco of ebay, take out the electric’s and wire up a 9v or similar battery to the wires where the pickups usually attach thus removing the cutting out issue, plus size won't be an issue due to the scale being larger. Wire up a motor, plug in the chip and you're good to go. A whole battery operated train with sound for £60 where it would normally cost you way over £100. Then you can have the control and the sounds of british locos on a garden railway layout where the sounds of realistic british locos are usually quite sparse.
However burning out the next day, I'm not too keen about 😂
I actually asked Simon Kohler the question about custom sounds, and he said it's not a feature, but he would pass the idea on to the design team.
When it comes to disappointment, Hornby never disappoint.
Be sticking with DC for a long while.
hahaha that's true - real pity about that Next 18 decoder... the 21 pin one actually was perfect! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
think it is very unfair on Hornby that you reviewed this item like this. You have done as most people will, try and install without reading any documentation and then get annoyed when you dont know what to do. You needed to be a lot more professional in my oinion and walk through the manual step by step, thats what it is there for. Not a good review at all
Strongly disagree. If they don;t fit they don;t fit!
Yes you need to know your onions 🧅
@@wapphigh5250 u read the manual mate if you are doing a review, be fair to the manufacturer. This is not a serious review as you could see he had no idea what he was doing at times, if he had the manual open and worked through it he may have had more success. If you dont understand that it is a waste of time me explaining it
@@nickedwards2904 I just watched the detailed Q/A Hornby release of the HM7000. I am not anti Hornby or HM7000 - it looks great to me! But they did say on that vid (it was aired just a few hrs ago) that the chips were compatible with other manufacturers. There was no mention about need to to check the size of the chips, or how big they were.. Just MO
@@wapphigh5250 looks good to me and will stop the need for additional controllers so expect to see them going cheap very soon lol of course they will be compatible but as with locos now the size of the loco does matter and speakers etc are a very tight fit in lots of locos
Great review Sam and thanks for showing us how 'good' the Hornby HM7000 DCC system is. LOL. I shall be sticking with ESU and Zimo sound decoders with my NCE DCC control system.
Does one not have to earth oneself when touching electronic kit these days? Back in the day on BT we always had to wear an earth strap to avoid 'wounding' or completely blowing up kit in exchanges and payphones.
I believe that there is smaller version of the 21 Pin decoder for engines that have a speaker already fitted it is the R7402 HM7000-21: Bluetooth® & DCC Decoder (21-pin) whether you can still use the sounds not sure, the RRP is 44.99 pound, there is also a R7401 HM7000-N18: Bluetooth® & DCC Decoder (Next18-pin) at the same price. Hope this helps
I have avoided DCC for years due to the amount of 00 locos I have that would need converting. However recently delving into TT120, this could be the perfect opportunity to start the new scale with DCC. Tempting!
I trust Digitrax and TCS decoders and my NCE controller for DCC. Tsunami decoders are good aswell.
$20 digitrax decoder ive thrown in anything and converted quickly
yes the size of almost any decoder is an issue, I use DCC and "Normal" DC for operating my railway, and just because a loco has a decoder socket inside, does not always mean that there is space for a decoder. I have tried to install two different types of decoder into one of my Hornby 08 shunters, one a direct plug in type but the body would not go back on fully. And the other was a wired version, but again trying to make it fit somewhere was the issue. We are 15 mins in to your review, and we have 3 locos that the new decoders don't fit into... And Big Kendo makes the same point as well!
Looking at an image of the Next 18 TXS decoder, it looks like the last 10mm does not contain any circuitry and could possibly be cut off. If the BT antenna is located there, then that would be a small issue but could still be overcome. I would need to see both sides of the PCB to know for sure...
Thanks for another great video. Really enjoy these. On the subject of the burnt out decoder, have you heard back from Hornby ? Asking as it’s quite expensive for me to get a decoder down to New Zealand from the UK (postage alone is £50) so don’t want to rush in until all the kinks have been worked out of these by Hornby
Handy hint. Don't connect any decoder to a prefitted speaker before you've checked the Impedance matching.
My assumption for the size is that they were designed with Hornby locomotives in mind, since its a hornby system. I bet as they continue to improve the product they'll be able to shrink the PCB size to fit in more locos.
With the cutting out and restarting under bluetooth, I bet its because it takes a few seconds for the bluetooth module to restart itself, and then reconnect to the tablet. Thats more a limitation with the bluetooth system in itself than with the decoder or controller, so I dont think theres much Hornby can do about it. You'll definitely want that stay alive battery to avoid those issues.
I'm sorry you had so much grief with yours. I fitted one to my TT Scotsman and it worked straight away. I didn't even have to chose the sound profile - it just did it all automatically and with a cycling of power (lifting the loco on and off the track) it worked faultlessly. I only have a few bits of TT track and of course drove it off the end of it at one point. A quick nudge back on and it picked up almost instantly and was away. As for it cooking itself, that's worrying. I'm guessing this, and perhaps the other issues could be down to power line issues (too much, too little, being unhappy with voltage/current profiles) but it's worryingly inconsistent from what you've shown and it should never bake itself as a fault condition. My set up was literally a HM6000 power supply, straight into the TT120 DCC track connector and it just worked. I guess it could be that temperamental in it's power requirements that it HAS to have Hornby kit, but that doesn't seem right. I will have to update if I have any problems like this crop up.
These decoders are supplied with a sound file pre loaded for A2/A3 steam
at 8:49 and 20:30 I noticed that the 08 is of the proportions of a Lionel Devious Diesel, as evident by the cab shape and lack of rods.
Soundtraxx has recently developed Bluetooh DCC recorder under the name Blunami which are the same size as their normal Tsunami line DCC decoders and have a larger variety of sounds programmed in. But they don't come with standard plug ends, no speakers, and are much more expensive.
I don't have an iPad at the moment but how do you find out which one's are compatible with this new system and it would be nice to have list of locos that this range chips will fit.
Hi Sam, Thanks for the review - food for thought. One thing that put me off the TTS decoders for steam was that the chuffs were far too slow and not adjustable so the chuffs could not be synchronised to the wheel revolutions (four chuffs per rev for a 2 cylinder loco). Do these new chips allow adjustment of the chuffs?
Each to there own but I couldn't be bothered with all the faff. I'm old school and for me can't beat the old fashioned method of a standard controller but great review pal.
I'm still gonna be buying regular sound chips due to their wider availability in terms of different sounds. However, I will be buying a 21-pin one to try out in my Dapol 08, now I have a Minerva class 14 with a Zimo sound chip installed. Not sure if any of the Hornby sounds would be suitable for the 57xx or 8750, or the 14xx yet.
However, if the one fitted to a TT loco burned out the next day, I hate to think how one would cope in an 0 gauge loco with 40 wagons behind it...
Do they make extension cables that fit these sockets? I think that might help with fitting them into more locos that would have space if the decoders were in a different orientation.
The reason it did not work, at the end of the load of profile the app showed the shunter being lifted off the track. This resets the decoder to make it work, all shown in the tutorial Sam. When you switched off the system it had the same effect so well worthwhile to have a section switch on a decoder track and watch out for that lifting the loco off the track on the app. It is used a couple of times in the setup process.
No no, I cycled power to the decoder whenever asked to - I can read haha!! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Hi Sam. That decoder was good while it lasted! I think it might have burnt out because it was in a very small enclosed space with completely no ventilation. It might be all right in an EMU where there is the space of an entire coach around it to disappate the heat. The drawback with Bluetooth is the amount of RF energy radiated from such a small aerial. It can't fail to heat up in such a small space! Thanks for uploading.
Wow. I hadn't considered that.. So are these chips going to be a goer in tight spaces or will they really only useful in areas like tenders? This is a major issue for Hornby quality control in the future... I hope it works out for them. I may only try them now in tenders...
@@wapphigh5250 The fact that Sam could pick up the Bluetooth signal from the ground floor of his house when the train was in the loft indicates the chip outputs a pretty strong signal. The more powerful the signal, the more electricity, the more energy, and the more heat!
@@AllensTrains Ok so that answers my question right there! Before I chip out my entire fleet, I think I will try one (and one only) in an old railroad scotsman 8 pin (it;s in the loco body) first and see how it goes. If I can fit a sound speaker in there as well and the stay alive I'll try ...and if all that squeezes in and works after a 6-8 hr run then my other tender DCC ready models should be fine. But Sam has pointed out with this review a very important point that not even Hornby (and their Q/A) did. Clearly overheating (and tight areas) may well be an issue. It's obviously going to be trial and error and not the awesome hi five game changer that the Hornby marketing team and spruik hi five crowd (think) it will be. Just MO
Bluetooth chipsets cannot ordinarily burn out; they are designed from the ground up to consume tiny amounts of power, of the order of a few milliwatts on average. This is why your phone can have Bluetooth permanently enabled. The part of a DCC decoder that *can* burn out is the motor controller, which may be dissipating a few watts in its failure mode.
@@wapphigh5250 I think sound decoders are extremely expensive for what they are. It would be cheaper to put 3 or 4 speakers around your layout. But that's probably why you cannot add your own sounds as Sam's review indicates! A sound decoder and speaker could be installed in any model, such as signal box or a brake van!
I don't know if there's any availability in the UK, but the American company Soundtraxx makes a conceptually similar product called blunami, a DCC sound decoder with Bluetooth control capability. I can't say I have any experience with it, but I'd be willing to bet that blunami doesn't have the problems this does as Soundtraxx are known for making high quality decoders that fit a wide variety of locomotives, but their decoders are extremely expensive, a single one costs as much as the two Hornby decoder kits and doesn't include speakers or baffle mounts.
Thanks for the helpful video. I'm looking forward to trying a 21 pin sound decoder in my new Hornby 9F on DC. Would be a game change for me if it works. Just got to hope it lasts longer than a day...😁
Will these work with three rail tin plate track? (ok, so my system is a bit older...)
Awesome video today Sam really interested to see where this goes
For smaller locos go for the non-sound version next 18 - it’s a smaller decoder so should fit
That's a good idea Steve - you're probably right!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I would imagine the delay to restart when the power is cut can also be attributed to the fact it's got to re-establish the bluetooth link also. So yes, the power bank they sell is the way to go to avoid it, or any other stay-alive capacitor. With regards to the size, and the fact that it seems to be aimed for their own newer models only, I think they are shooting themselves in the foot there. Hornby should know that will cause a lot of negativity towards them, I cannot see too many people wanting to use the system if it's not going to fit half of their loco's. And if Hornby feel this will make people buy more of their locos, that is just not going to happen, with maybe the exception being a child's train set. Hornby should be grown up enough to know that modellers will have a range of different makes of locos. If they really want the bluetooth system to take off, they need to make sure it fits other peoples locos.
Sam as Jenny stayed in her video on the hornby bluetooth the app would run any of the other bluetooth decoders other than it own which means that if you have a loco equipped with a bluenami decoder you can't run it from the hornby app.
Good video the system looks good and sounds good but will they be any good for n gauge which is what my layout is keep up the videos Sam
Hi Sam have you seen the 'loco remote ' control system? Basically the same idea as this in garden railway scales
Informative video.
1. If many decoders fail I'm sure it will be all over the forums, and it is the first batch so not unusual.
2. I have two small steam trains, shunters, and looking under the case they would both need a socket adding (box marked as DCC ready) and only room for a non-sound decoder.
3. The IOS version only works with iPads and iPhones manufactured in the last 5 years. I am waiting to see if the Android version works before ordering a decoder, as I am still only DC
The take-up of this will only sell if the app is excellent and the decoders are as good as other manufacturers.
I think I will stick with running DCC Sound Fitted locos on my DC system. Bachmann, Sonic, Dapol and others work that way. Put the power on quickly and you get the wheel slip; start slowly and you get steam so on with chuffs changing as you increase speed. They the seem to die away when the power is left constant.
Works for me.
It could be just me, but Hornby could have shortened the Next18 Decoder's length.
It looks like it has a lot of blank space after the solder tab GND is located.
I suppose they need the space to apply the QR sticker on the top.