Thanks to everyone who took part in the survey! The survey is now over. I will be going over the data and I'll make a follow up video with the results in the near future.
I honestly _do_ think that 3D Blast is mainline. • It's primarily a platformer. • Sonic is there / is the main protagonist. • Eggman is there / is the main antagonist. • There's an unlockable ending for achieving a milestone (namely, playing special stages to get the Chaos Emeralds). • It's the closest thing the Saturn's got. Bonus points for being released across two consoles at once, and for having two separate soundtracks.
@@TomTheyy Okay, first: "Why _wasn't_ it missing"? Second, to actually answer the question: because it wasn't received very well, and because it was mostly made by a different studio, so they'd have to ask them for permission. Plus, it was released across two consoles, so which one do you include: the technically superior Saturn version, or the Genesis port to match the other games in Origins?
@@MattTOB618 Blast and other Game Gear games weren't great, but still included under Game Gear games lol. And it's not like Traveller's Tales has any ownership rights over 3D Blast, it's Sega's game. It still released on Genesis to be a "main" game that's conveniently not included like the other "main" games. If it was remastered like those games were in RSDK, it'd blur the line on what version it was representing.
I think the logic for mainline is simple: - treated as a big release - Has sonic as the mai/prominent character - Developed by sonic team AND familiar gameplay (boost/2D) - Introduces something that is going to be prolific in the series going forward But just because its not mainline doesn't mean its not canon. So for instance, Rush, Story Books, and Battle are canon but they're not mainline in my eyes. Same for Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic Riders, and Sonic Dream Team
a lot people forgetting that sonic speed simulator is confirmed as canon and orbot references flicky island in shadow gens so i think we gotta fit those in too
The distinction between "Mainline" and "Side Game" for me is a super important thing. Lots of the games people brought up (Game Gear, Advance, Rush, 4, Storybook, Dream Team), definitely deserve to be counted as important to the series, but they weren't neccessarily treated as the "next big step" for the franchise when they were released. Even if I love Rush a lot and feel it would deserve the title, Shadow 2005 released on the exact same day, follows up on major story beats from Adventure 2 and Heroes, and was advertised as a major tonal shift from prior entries. I think being developed by Sonic Team is a very important factor but not the only deciding factor, for example in my survey I put the Dimps games as Side Games, while Mania and Superstars are Mainline.
@@julianx2rl Runners is more of an "endless runner" tbh. You might be confusing it with Rivals, which are a couple of (1-on-1) Racing games. Either way neither are platformers, yea.
I find it interesting that most people consider the handheld Mario games like Land, NSMB and 3D Land to be mainline Mario without question, but don’t consider the Game Gear, GBA and DS Sonic games mainline.
11:40 it’s cause of how portable games were treated when those games came out, when the game gear games came out companies that would make them often considered handheld games to just be their own thing, just a way to play the game on the go and not really as a main part of the series, this honestly still was present up until the switch came out but around the time the ds came out companies in general started to treat handheld as being important like game consoles and so portable consoles got mainline games for that reason, it’s why old handheld games are less likely to be mainline then newer handheld games
I personally feel intend is the most important for deciding which is which. Whether or not Sega and Sonic Team want it to be a big event or just something to tie fans over is very important. This actually makes Mania A weird exception though. As it's quite clear that it was meant to be more of a fun little side game to the main event of Sonic Forces (Mania was primarily made by a set of fans whose only previous Sonic work was the mobile ports, while Forces had as much of the main team as possible), but Mania was beloved while Forces was panned. And while Sega cannot backtrack and say "this game with the generation/colors gameplay that we hyped up front to back is it even a main event, lol", they can easily backtrack and say "You know, Sonic Mania was also the main event. I mean, it is the successor to the classic trilogy. (Please ignore the game we explicitly called Sonic 4, that was a mobile title we decided to slap a number onto because of New Super Mario Brothers.)" So it's debatable whether or not Mania should count. I guess it depends on whether or not you think "retroactive intent" (for lack of a better term) counts.
Sonic 4 is the only 1 that's legit kinda iffy but I'm willin to say side rather than main. Mania is no question a side game not only for the reason u stated but also cus it's not a ST game
@@nightlydata2181-.-I wasn't trying to refute you, I was just pointing out the old meme of how much Sega pushed Mania after it became successful, which many fans considered excessive. (Though to be fair, this is also why I believe Sega consider it to be mainline now.)
@@michaelkindt3288 I didn't say u refuted me. I was jus confused as to wut u meant cus I had no idea. hey did go hard on markettin but that's jus cus it was the 1st genuine classic sonic game in decades. I don't think that in any way makes it mainline. It's still not made by ST & was obv made to help lead into Forces. It also cost half the price of forces too. Success doesn't dictate whether somethin is mainline
I think there's a distinction to be made between Canon and Mainline. In my opinion every Canon game is every game referenced in Sonic X Shadow Generations and any games referencing those games. Every Mainline game is every game that has a level in Sonic X Shadow Generations (excluding the 3DS version) + CD, Mania, Lost World and Superstars.
@@gunman8452 I don't mean like music or trophies. I mean stuff like playable content or stuff mentioned by story. But that that does hold true what you said for the most part.
@@Mudkip971 Mania wasn't made by ST & is clearly a smaller tie in to help lead into the bigger release which was forces so it's factually not mainline. Shadow 05 is a mainline sonic game there's no debate on that. It's the next big release after heroes. SR is supposed to replace the Wii version of 06 they couldn't make cus it would be too big. That's the mainline release for the Wii. It also added very big things to the series like the homing reticle & design elements for the 3D boost games later. It's meant to be mainline & Black knight follows that up as the next big mainline release for the Wii.
Ok, it seems people are confusing mainline with canon (except with the people who considers anything mainline), a mainline Sonic game should be the games that are a plataformer and had a big budget for its time, but this would collide with some games, those are: Sonic CD, Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic Boom. Idk what to think for Sonic 4 EP 1 and 2, bc they were supposed to be mobile games (at least the first episode). 8:20 i agree with the assumption that this user is making, a mainline sonic game is the game that represents the "Next Big Thing"
I feel like mainline games that have a connection with one another. Sonic Rivals, Rush, Game Gear & Advance Games, 3D Blast, Storybook, 4 Ep 1 & 2, Knuckles Chaotix, Runners, Racing Games, SegaSonic, Dream Team
I believe the idea of mainline doesn’t matter it mostly depends on what is added to the timeline that sticks. A example would be Silver he first debut in 06 but was then retconned but did appear in Rivals. So I think any new event or characters added to the timeline could be considered as mainline if they are brought back or mentioned again in later games
I will never believe secret rings and black knight arent mainline, theyre both made in house BY sonic team and on a home console, and the story is canon to the sonic universe if im not mistaken, or at least it ties into it in some way shape or form
They can be canon without being "mainline". I chose to call them "side games" in the survey because SEGA themselves gave them a separate label, hence why we call them the "Storybook" games in the first place, but that doesn't make them unimportant.
It doesnt really feel right imo. Theyre def canon but the vibes are literally otherworldy to other mainline sonic games. Maybe if if it was one game instead of a series then itd be mainline but its like the New Super Mario dilemma where the first game was a unique but then branched into a seprate series all together.
I think majority of us can agree that it's set in stone Sonic 1, 2, 3 (& Knuckles) , and Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 are mainline. Probably the 5 most important Sonic games
The boost games are definitely a set in stone as well. I don’t think anyone would argue that Colors or Unleashed aren’t a mainline title, and especially not Generations or Frontiers
@@Grim0XVr also it’s literally part of sonic origins and almost was on mega collection but the sega cd emulator still needed work. It’s very much mainline
The mainline games are the big noteworthy Sonic Team releases that come out every 4-5 years. Sonic 1 and 2, CD, 3K, Adventure 1 and 2, Heroes, 06, Unleashed, Colors, Generations, Lost World, Forces, and Frontiers are all of the mainline games. Stuff like Mania and Superstars, the Advance and Rush games, Sonic 4, and so on are side games - they are still canon, but they mainly just exist to fill the void between mainline releases, keeping the money flowing and allowing the series to stay relevant.
I think a good indicator that a game is mainline is that the game is a platformer (obviously) and was released on more than 1 console, because if it didn’t get multiple versions at the start or a port later on, then it‘s probably not that important. Although this alone would leave a bunch of the Game Gear games and Sonic 4 as mainline which I don’t agree with so it‘s not completely comprehensive
Here’s my list of mainline sonic games in chronological order - Sonic 1 - Sonic CD - Sonic 2 - Sonic 3 (Sonic Route) - Sonic & Knuckles (Sonic Route - Sonic 3 (Knuckles Route) - Sonic & Knuckles (Knuckles Route) - Sonic Mania - Sonic Mania (Encore Mode) - Sonic 3D Blast - Sonic Superstars - Sonic Adventure - Sonic Advance - Sonic Advance 2 - Sonic Adventure 2 - Sonic Battle - Sonic Advance 3 - Sonic Heroes - Shadow ‘05 - Sonic ‘06 - Sonic Unleashed - Sonic Colours Ultimate - Sonic X Shadow Generations - Sonic Lost World - Sonic Forces - Sonic Frontiers
I always considered mainline based on Generations and Sonic's abilities in the games. So the three main core eras (Classic, Dreamcast, Modern) eras as the foundation. Then you fit the games in between depending on what abilities Sonic has obtained throughout each era and what he looked like. So for example my list would be S1 SCD S2 S3+K Mania (cause classic sonic got some new abilities during his time in generations ie drop dash which he used his SXS G) Super Stars (cause he also used it in that game) S4 (Episode 1+2. Cause he has his modern looks but still plays like his classic counterpart) The Advance Trilogy Adventure 1 Adventure 2 Heros Shadow the Hedgehog (Technically 06 cause it did happen but now is erased. Although non-existent, SxSG acknowledged 06 based on Crisis City, Kingdom Valley and Mephiles) Either The Rush Trilogy or Sonic Unleashed because he got his boost at this time Colors SxSG Lost World (weird he didn't use his boost in this time but technically this took place after generations since the last stage was a Colors stage that took place first before Lost World) Forces Frontiers That's my personal list
An interesting thing I realized when being asked what's a side game or a spinoff: Many of the games that fail the "mainline" qualifications purely by stint of obscurity do fall under the "side game" category, as do some of the more well-known games that don't control _quite_ the same. I also noticed that to count as a side game, it had to be canon, while spinoffs don't always need to be (Spinball due to too many Emeralds, Boom because that's a different continuity, etc.) I also noticed that there was a significant glut of spinoffs from the Wii to recently, of the "merely decent" variety. On their own not harmful, but to that extent?
Interesting video! Honestly what should be considered mainline are the ones that everyone generally agrees on (Classics, Adventures etc) and plus all of the others that have a canon character or expand to the story. Like Battle, Rush with Blaze of course (although it’s weird that it’s even a consideration lol) & etc
No he is not. He's definitely quite knowledgeable and very smart, but please don't treat his opinions as gospel. He has some pretty bad takes sometimes
What honestly bothers me so much is the Tails games... Sure, Shadow 05 can be debated, but you'd generally get enough evidence that it is indeed a Canon/Mainline Sonic game. And by that logic I also include the 32x title Chaotix (K-Chaotix in the west). But Tails' games are such a departure that even Tails' Adventure is hardly even canon, let alone Mainline... But if you include it, does that mean 90% (if not all) of 8-bit games mainline? If not, that means that Tails is the only character from the main characters that hasn't received a mainline Sonic game. Which is such a crime man... He is straight up the OG deuteragonist and you wouldn't give him a mainline game? Yeah, just a thought/pet peeve that crossed my mind that I wanted to share, Thanks for your videos man, don't ever stop creating
For my survey inputs, I just put in everything that has been established to have happened/have to have happened as mainline. I figured it meant in terms of importance for the Sonic universe/lore and could be interchanged with canon.
Oh wow, I didn't expect to get featured in the vid, haha. I would amend my statement a little bit though. I think if it's a platformer and is not directly referred to as a different branch by SEGA themselves, then it is essentially mainline. Because if it's not a platformer, then it's a spinoff by default, no matter how much their contributions matter (see Rivals and Riders). And if SEGA refers to these games separately, then that also means these games aren't directly mainline, such as the Storybook games having their own unique label (hence why they're called like that in the first place; it's the name SEGA gave them) or Boom failing so badly it fell back into being a separate branch despite being SEGA's vision once upon a time. I insist that all versions of any given mainline game is mainline even if it is not canon, though. The 8-bit versions of Sonic 1 & 2 are still meant to be those games but on handheld, likewise for some of the modern games having DS/3DS "ports". Plus this allows us the leniency to count their direct sequels as some level of mainline as well, as the 8-bit ports are sort of package with the "Sonic & Tails" games, and Colors DS is basically packaged with the Rush duology which itself is arguably also part of a greater whole featuring the Advance trilogy (although I would say Battle is canon but not mainline due to its genre shift; another case of "plot-relevant spinoff" in the franchise really). ... Knuckles's Chaotix and Sonic 3D Blast are weird for me tho, as they're technically platformers and don't have any other labels but are just incredibly bizarre to put side by side with other games I give the label to. Sonic Blast for Game Gear is not in any package deal with the other Game Gear titles so I can at least confidently call that one a side game. Same with Sonic Jam on the gamecom, which I wouldn't want to subject *anyone* to anyways. '^^
A mainline Sonic game is a game that has significant impact to the series, games like SA1, and SA2 are mainline, but games like Sonic rush arent as they are clearly just side games
@@hamstersandwich9917 it's not, as it introduced, yes, the BOOST GAUGE, and teo very important characters in the series: Blaze and Eggman Nega. And the Sol Dimension.
@CauaFriendsOficial while it's true that Rush introduced the boost gauge, calling blaze and Nega very important is a stretch tbh. I love Blaze as much as the next person but her impact on the series doesn't go beyond those games as she doesnt come back Beyond references and sponoffs. She's in mostly popular in the fanbase rather than the series as a whole. Nega is also pretty forgettable as a character as he's just a pallette swap eggman.
Actually, gameplay concepts that would be in adventure (such as the homing attack, in the form of a shield) as well as automated loops. In addition, Jun re-used some compositions initally for 3D blast. These two factors point to the idea that Sonic Team likely looked at 3D blast when making Adventure.
I really like lucasg5021’s thoughts on mainline games. Using the games featured in Generations as basis for which games are mainline makes a lot of sense because just like you said, it’s what Sega themselves sees as canon
A mainline would be stories that all connect to each other as one big universe or something. Spin offs are like racing games, sports, storybook games, sonic boom etc. Side games could be like mobile and arcade games, and maybe the tails games, and the collection games. A game that isn’t a sonic game would be like Lego sets, Mean Bean Machine etc.
You shouldn't have given me the power of the "Do you want to say anything else?" box... I wrote a novel to explain all of the oddcases in my choices. ;w;
My logic going into the survey: Mainline - crucial to Sonic lore, canon, and platformer with Sonic as the main playable character (with the exception of Shadow 05) Side game - adds to the lore somewhat, platformer, and canon, and Sonic is playable Spin-off - features a Sonic universe character but either doesn't add to the lore, isn't a platformer, or Sonic isn't a playable character or isn't canon
I've been a fan of Sonic since 91, and the 8 bit versions are part of my childhood (just like the 16 bits). As much as I love both series, I've always considered 8 bit and 16 bit games as separated timelines. for example, in the 8 bit soni, there are only (or at least they only found) 6 emeralds, which explains the lack of super sonic. There are several other discrepancies, but the idea is that they are alternative realities, or "what if". but both are canonical, just separate and unconnected. In fact, if Sega were smart, they could take this idea and continue 8-bit sonics as something separate, in current times... (in my opinion, of course)
I think it's funny how this changed over the years. 15-20 years ago 3D Blast was considered a mainline game as it was made as the next big entry and made for the Saturn. Archie and Fleetway has huge marketing for 3D Blast as well as all the gaming magazines. Other games from that time like Triple Trouble, Knuckles Chaotix and Sonic R didn't have that level of marketing, and was considered side games to fill the gap. Sonic X-treme, although canceled was also marketed as the next big entry after 3D Blast. Similarly, Sonic 4 ep 1 and 2 in the early 10s were considered mainline as they were stated to take place between Sonic 3&K and Adventure, 3D Blast already forgotten. Sonic 4 was considered a good game back then, it only sourer a few years later. While Sonic Mania wasn't considered mainline as it was during the time when Classic was considered its own thing. The Riders series was considered a side game not part of the canon, while the story book games were. However, recently Riders has been canonized with IDW and is now considered mainline by SEGA. Story book games are divided, not just in terms of mainline, but even it's canonicity. My personal opinion on the mainline games: Sonic 1 Sonic CD Sonic 2 Sonic 3&K Sonic 3D Blast Sonic Mania Sonic Superstars Sonic Adventure Sonic Adventure 2 Sonic Heroes Shadow 05 Sonic 06 Sonic and Secret Rings Sonic Unleashed Sonic and the Black Knight Sonic Gens Shadow Gens Sonic Lost World Sonic Forces Sonic Frontiers Sonic Dream Team Other games not mainline, but still important to it. Sonic Chaos, Sonic Triple Trouble, Sonic Pocket Adventure, Sonic Advance 1, 2, 3, Sonic Rush, Rush Adventure, Rivals 1, 2 and the Riders series somewhere in the timeline. Along with Murder of Sonic.
Games that introduce characters that have become intrinsic to the series should be canon. All the ones you mentioned in the original video plus Triple Trouble (Fang the Sniper), Chaotix (Espio, Vector, and Charmy), Sega Sonic(Mighty and Ray), Rush (Blaze the Cat) , and Advance (Cream the Rabbit and Cheese).
You know that feature that let's one video have a few different thumbnails? What if this video has a bunch of different thumbnails that are the exact same except the comment calls a different game mainline
My part of the timeline: there is sonic, sonic cd (even though he used the spin dash here, the game mentions that he learned it from tails), sonic 2, sonic 3, sonic and knuckles, mania, superstars, and adventure 1.
I've always used Generations as the barometer for "mainline." If it got a level or boss fight in Gens, it's definitely mainline. If it was limited to just artwork or a song in the galleries, it's a side game. The classic games (including CD), Adventure games, Heroes, Shadow, 06, Unleashed, and Colors are all mainline for sure. Forces and Frontiers also are due to Shadow Gens. Stuff like Chaotix, 3D Blast, the Storybook games, and Sonic 4 are side games. But it gets iffy once you get into the games that have come out *since* Generations. Lost World, Mania, and Superstars definitely should be mainline, if you ask me.
6:54 also this comment is completely correct they've kinda stated before that a lot of stuff is cannon and even tho a lot of it is remember when sonic x tried to fix some of adventure 1 and 2 issues i feel like that show has lot of cannon stuff like how sonic is drifter he doesn't really have a home but hearing that in one of the tails tube episodes that he sometimes hangs out at tails's homes it makes me think he kinda sleeps there sometimes too but yeah
To me there's four factors that determine whether it's mainline or not: -Story: Is it canon? Does it bring anything to the table or it's never mentioned again? (This would discard 3D Blast and Sonic 4) -Gameplay: Are the characters running and jumping or are they doing something completely different? (This would discard Riders and Shuffle) -Characters: Is Sonic a main character? (This would discard Shadow 05 and Knuckles Chaotix) -Console: Was it designed to be a home console/pc game? (This would discard the Advance games, the Rush games and the game gear games that got ported to the Master System) Keep in mind, that makes the games mainline, but it doesn't mean they aren't canon. Also, you could make an argument Shadow Gens is canon because it actually comes bundled in with Sonic Gens, and 06 just erases itself so it would also count.
Sonic 1, Sonic 2, Sonic CD, Sonic 3&K, Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, Sonic 06, Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Colors, Sonic Generations, Sonic Forces, Sonic Frontiers
For me, a Main Line Sonic Game has to tick All 3 Of These Criteria: 1). A Clear Story (Where you can tell what the story is from the game from just playing the game itself) 2). Significant World-building (Games which introduce significant lore &/or new characters that have made a major impact on the main line series (EG, Knuckles, Shadow, Chaos, Silver, Sage) 3). Was released (or re-released) on the mainline consoles of the time (Sega Genesis, Dreamcast, X-Box, Playstaion, Wii, PC) If a game does not meet all 3 of these criteria, but meets 2 of them; they’re are a side game (EG the Advance games, the Rush games, the Riders games (Yes, the Riders games don’t meet the 2nd Criteria. The Babylon Rogues & their games haven’t made that major of an impact on the series. They’re pretty standalone in nature & gameplay wise are different to the other games)). The only exceptions being crossover games with other IPs. There are no stories in those & are really just Sonic characters as selected characters to play rather than being full on Sonic Games, so they are regarded as Spin-Offs Sonic CD was an outlier for the longest time because of its release on the Sega CD add-on (& whether or not an add-on should count as part of the main console range is difficult to say). However, because it was re-released not only on its own in 2011 on all major consoles but was considered a major re-release at the time, that solidifies its placement as a Main Line Sonic Game. Shadow Generations is another tricky one as it does tick all the criteria above, but because of its short length & unavailable status on its own outside of Sonic Generations, I see that as mainline but paired with Sonic Generations (akin to Sonic 3 & Knuckles). The only change I can see here is if Knuckles Chaotix ever gets a major solo re-release akin to Sonic CD. If that ever happens, it has a slight chance of joining Shadow 05 in the ‘Mainline Sonic games which don’t really star Sonic but meets everything else so f*ck it, why not?’ So my list of ‘Mainline Sonic Games’ goes like this: 1). Sonic The Hedgehog (1991 - 16bit) 2). Sonic The Hedgehog 2 (1992 - 16bit) 3). Sonic CD (1993) 4). Sonic The Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles (1994) 5). Sonic Adventure (1998) 6). Sonic Adventure 2 (2001) 7). Sonic Heroes (2003) 8). Shadow The Hedgehog (2005) 9). Sonic 06 (2006) 10). Sonic Unleashed (2008) 11). Sonic Colours (2010) 12). Sonic X Shadow Generations (2011/2024) 13). Sonic Lost World (2013) 14). Sonic Mania (2017) 15). Sonic Forces (2017) 16). Sonic Frontiers (2022) 17). Sonic Superstars (2023) Also, there is a difference between ‘Canon’ & ‘Main Line.’ I think most Sonic games are canon. All of the games which I classified as ‘Side Games’ are still canon. It’s from Spinoffs where the canonicity of game can be called into question
I think that any Sonic game when playing as Sonic, where the gameplay is about traditional platforming (in 2D or 3D) and the goal is to get to the end of each (non-boss) stage is what I'd consider mainline. This definition only bothers me in regard to the Boom games, as that is how those games play, but they're also undeniably like a spinoff alternate reality series. So they might be the exception to my rule.
Personal definition of "mainline sonic game " 1: a side scrolling or 3d platformer 2: Playing as sonic the hedgehog is mandatory to complete the game 3: The game was released on a mass market game console aimed at general audiences (so no arcade games, no educational games for babies) Once you fulfill those 3 criteria congratulations! You're a mainline sonic game! You don't have to be canon or good or even made by sonic team! So basically games like sonic 3d blast are mainline while knuckles chaotix isn't because the latter doesn't fulfil criteria 2. Ditto for shadow 05.
Hard to pick which one’s a spin off and which one’s not, as a spin off is typically an installment in a franchise that stars a side character as the main lead, who’s writing style is different from the original, and it’s show has a different tone. There’s not even a crossover section.
is funny to me see a person say that ds port are not mainline, when i heard that someone in sega said sonic colors ds is like a more complete version of sonic colors
i still count sonic r as mainline due to the saturn not having a proper sonic game due to sonic xtreme being cancelled, so for the console to have a sonic game, sega had to work with TT to turn a in-development F1 game into a sonic game, which became sonic r, and other than jam and 3d blast, sonic r is still the only fully original sonic game for the console, and since it was co developed by sonic team and is still a platformer, it should count
What separates Game Gear games from Advance + Rush series as mainline to me is whether they push the gameplay of the series forward. Advance iterates over the Genesis games with features like the jump dash + homing attack, melee attacks, air tricks, rail grinding and Advance 2's "Boost Mode", whereas the Game Gear games are more like demakes trying to fit Genesis gameplay on inferior hardware with not many new features with staying power.
I would not consider sonic boom a mianline game, as it wasn't made by sonic team, and it is just a buggy kids game that would work with any other character.
Part of the argument about whether Advance and Rush are main is because they were made by Dimps, which is understandable (but also pointless when people consider Mania mainline), but the other part is just because they're handheld games and I really don't agree with that. There used to be a stigma around handheld games as being "lesser" but I think that's largely gone away, both as handhelds kinda died out and as phone games took on that stigma. With Mario for instance the Mario Land games used to frequently be ignored as minor games but these days are counted by a lot of people. They still don't get as much attention as the console games though so if that's also important for being mainline then idk. On that note, Sonic Dream Team seems to be in an awkward position where a lot of people who have played it count it as a mainline game, but because of the Apple Arcade thing most sonic fans can't play it and so it gets ignored. If it ever does get a PC release I think it might be in a similar position as Superstars, but for now... no one's buying an ipad just for this. I think I agree about Sonic 3D Blast historically being mainline just because it was meant to fill the gap left by Xtreme's cancellation. I don't see it called main these days as much as it used to be though, but I think historical consideration like that should count. Oh and I think the 2011 remake of Sonic CD was a big aspect in redeeming it and getting people to finally recognize it as one of the original main titles.
i consider robotniks mean bean machine and spin ball and 3d blast main line 1 because sonic origins 2 how robotniks mean bean machine (puyo puyo) was in mania
the advance games or just advance 3 can be canon or mainline because its referenced later in the idw sonic comics and the comics are considered to take place after forces
The survey doesn't include Sonic Unleashed Wii/PS2 nor Sonic Lost World 3DS Edit: Sonic Unleashed Wii is a different game content-wise and so is the mobile version The level designs and controls and some mechanics like the boost are severely different so it warrants being counted as a separate game
i used to be a "3d blast is mainline" truther though overtime i've changed my perspective. it largely came down to market importance for me at the time, 3d blast was the big sonic release in 1996 and the only "traditional" platformer on the saturn. i similarly considered the handheld platformers (s1 & 2 gg, chaos, triple trouble, advance and rush trilogies, and gens and lost world 3ds) to be mainline. nowadays it comes down to me, to "sonic team developed platformers with lasting impact on the canon that were promoted heavily as their big release that year", so my list now is sonic 1, 2, cd, 3k, adventure, adventure 2, heroes, shadow, 06, unleashed, colors, generations, lost world, forces, frontiers, and shadow generations, with special exceptions including mania and superstars as sonic team oversaw those projects and, at least at this point in time, considers them just as important as their own games (especially mania, given it ties directly into forces) secret rings and black knight i go back and forth on a lot, they fit a lot of the criteria and arguably did have a lasting impact in the form of being the games that the b team worked on before getting to do colors and lost world, but i dunno. they're in an awkward place and sonic team doesn't seem to value them much in the grand scheme of canon despite being pretty big deals at the time.
A mainline game really is : - no racing,fighting,party -made by sonic team -must be on a home console -sonic games that have other protagonist that aren't seen as important (not shadow tho) -games mustn't be on hand helds (ds, 3ds, gba, neo geo) -mustn't be 8 bit
I don't remember what all my votes were but honestly when it comes to the 8-Bit Sonic games they are fantastic but because they were released basically in unison with the 16 bit Sonic games I just consider the 8-Bit wants to be side games. I don't remember what I said about the Sonic Advance games. I think I considered them Cannon because cream the rabbit was introduced in Sonic Advance 2. I do think I considered Sonic colors DS to be a side game because I don't think that game is ever referenced even though it's a damn good game
I consider Sonic R mainline because its the only big release on the Sega Saturn. Its also the first real 3D Sonic platformer (not counting Sonic the fighters)
For me the games that are mainline are games that have levels in Sonic X Shadow Gens, games that introduce a reacuring and a couple games after sonic gens. Here is my list -Sonic 1 -Sonic 2 -Sonic CD -Sonic 3&K -Knuckles Chaotix -SegaSonic -All the 8bit games -Sonic Adventure -Sonic Adventure 2 -Sonic Heroes -Sonic Battle -Sonic advance 1, 2 and 3 -Sonic Rush -Sonic 06 -Shadow 05 -Sonic Colours -Sonic Unleashed -Sonic Generations -Sonic Forces -Sonic Mania Plus -Sonic Frontiers -Sonic Superstars -Shadow Generations -Sonic Dream Team Also the Sonic Rivals games because it’s the first time sonic and friends meet silver technically
I agree there's some ambiguity over what's as Mainline or not, but SO too many of the comments in the video are being way too loose with the term or think it means something else. A game can be canon or contribute to the series's characters or lore without being mainline, "mainline" its what the next main entry was. It can get weird with Sonic 4 (where it's not really the next main title but is ostensibly a sequel to one that was), Lost World, or the 2d titles since generations which is sort of a parallel line of titles to the boost games; but stuff like Advance, Rush, etc just clearly do not count, they're not even made by Sonic Team and have titled subseries! MO, the unambiguous mainline titles are 1, 2, 3&K, SA1, SA1, Heroes, 06, Unleashed, Generations, Forces, and Frontiers. CD, Shadow, Sonic 4, Colors, Mania, and Superstars probably SHOULD count, but I can see arguments against them: CD, Sonic 4, and Mania were all not really intended to be mainline releases at the time I don't believe, but retroactively sort of have become so due to how the series has evolved and framed itself since: CD is now basically an alternate Sonic 2, 4 is a sequel to 3&K as is arguably Mania and either/both can be credited to kickstarting a parrelel line of main titles which Superstars has codified as being major releases alongside the 3d titles, and Colors was made by Sonic team and seems to have been their main project after Unleashed, same with Shadow after Heroes, even if the former was invisioned as a Wii exclusive and the latter doesn't feature Sonic. Both also fit within the gameplay formula the series was establishing at the time. Lost World and the Storybook games I can KINDA see arguements for, in that they aren't that different from colors as a Nintendo exclusive title(s), but their gameplay styles are different and the latter are outright titled as a subseries. I really don't see any other title in the series even debatable counting other then ShadowGens but I think that's too recent to really comment on. As an aside, next survey, I would allow people to select multiple options at once (EX: a game is both a spinoff and a side game, not that I see a real distinction between the terms), and also a "probably is mainline" "is probably not mainline" in addition to "I don't know", which I would call instead "maybe mainline"
I agree with the majority of those, but I do want to add that in terms of the endings of all the games, the better ending is the canon ending for me. Yeah, I'm looking at you, Frontiers. For most of the games, the best ending IS the canon ending but for Frontiers, people are saying the original, TRASH, ending is canon. NO. I say the better ending is the canon one, and anything that gets in the way of that I will push through. The original ending sucked and the new one added in the Final Horizon is better, therefore that one is canon, NO QUESTIONS.
I think it's a mistake to think in terms of "mainline" for Sonic. Once upon a time, you could look at major releases on SEGA's main console at the time (this is why you have people citing Sonic 3D Blast and maybe doubting Sonic CD, since the Genesis was a more mainstream console than the SEGA CD). But after Dreamcast, there is no SEGA console. Once upon a time, you could look at "traditional Sonic gameplay" to exclude games like Mean Bean Machine or Sonic Spinball. But 2D Sonic gameplay is a different animal than 3D Sonic gameplay, and the Adventure games introduced a wide array of non-Sonic gameplay (e.g. treasure hunting, mecha riding) in a clearly mainstream Sonic series. It's just more useful to use terms like "the Genesis games", "the Advance games", "the Adventure games", "the 3D boost games", "the Modern Classic Sonic games", etc.
My criteria for mainline is the game has to introduce new characters, reference, or continute events/story from past games Sonic 1, 2, 3&k, CD, Knuckles Chaotix, only because it introduced team Chaotix. Chaos ig, I haven't played chaos. Triple Trouble, Adventure games, advance games, heroes, rush games, shadow 05 and sonic 06, sonic 4, unleashed, colors, lost world, generations/shadow generations, mania, forces, frontiers, and Superstars.
I think a Mainline Sonic Game has to meet these criteria: - It focuses mainly on Sonic - It is a Platformer - It was released on a Standard Console, not a handheld - It is canon to the main Sonic timeline - It was pushed as a big release and not as a smaller release in-between the major releases With that in mind, my list of Mainline Sonic games are: Sonic 1 Sonic 2 Sonic CD Sonic 3&Knuckles Sonic Adventure 1 Sonic Adventure 2 Sonic '06 Sonic Unleashed Sonic Colors Sonic Generations Sonic Lost World Sonic Mania Sonic Forces Sonic Frontiers Sonic x Shadow Generations Sonic Superstars
Im not completely sure if triple trouble should be considered mainline. Sure you could argue that the events of s3&k continue into TT, but if that's the case, then why was knuckles tricked by eggman again? You could also argue TT is canon since it introduced Fang The Sniper who hasn't returned until Superstars.
Ok so here’s what I consider mainline and I’ll also add my timeline for fun and in case you plan or want to make a spin-off with the “canon”. Okay I consider Sonic ‘91 (It’s an inside joke) , Sonic 2, CD, 3&K, Mania, Sonic Adventure duology, Heroes, Shadow ‘05, Sonic ‘06, Rush duology, Unleashed, Colors, Sonic Generations and Sonic + Shadow Generations, Lost World, Forces, and Frontiers. And also I want to point out that canon is very different from mainline so I’ll say those too, Tails Adventure, Sega Sonic Arcade, Classic Sonic Tetralogy (In order of Origins’ Story Mode) + plus Mania (but not mania adventures/plus bc of the forces retcon), Sonic and Tails duology, 3D Blast, Sky Patrol, Sonic 4: Superstars, Sonic Pocket Adventure (Where Eggman gets his modern suit), Sonic Adventure duology, Heroes, Shadow ‘05, (No Sonic ‘06 aside from the remnants of it in white space limbo), Rush Duology, Storybook duology, Unleashed, Colors, Shadic Gens, Lost World, Forces, TMOSTH, and Frontiers.
Sonic 3D Blast is mainline. It's a Sonic adventure that's it's unique and it has influence as the first 3D attempt. (Maybe Sonic Labyrinth is mainline too??)
Thanks to everyone who took part in the survey! The survey is now over. I will be going over the data and I'll make a follow up video with the results in the near future.
Damn, I always miss these kinds of polls... Why do I only ever find out about them when they're over?
Glad to be part of the survey! I usually end up missing out on these in other UA-camr's research, so looking forward to part 3
I honestly _do_ think that 3D Blast is mainline.
• It's primarily a platformer.
• Sonic is there / is the main protagonist.
• Eggman is there / is the main antagonist.
• There's an unlockable ending for achieving a milestone (namely, playing special stages to get the Chaos Emeralds).
• It's the closest thing the Saturn's got.
Bonus points for being released across two consoles at once, and for having two separate soundtracks.
Also, the title! It was technically one of Sonic’s first attempts at a 3D entry (technically).
I must agree with your observations!
Why wasn't it "missing" in Origins, then? Why wasn't it treated more as Sonic's next step after S3&K instead of Adventure?
@@TomTheyy Okay, first: "Why _wasn't_ it missing"?
Second, to actually answer the question: because it wasn't received very well, and because it was mostly made by a different studio, so they'd have to ask them for permission.
Plus, it was released across two consoles, so which one do you include: the technically superior Saturn version, or the Genesis port to match the other games in Origins?
@@MattTOB618 Blast and other Game Gear games weren't great, but still included under Game Gear games lol. And it's not like Traveller's Tales has any ownership rights over 3D Blast, it's Sega's game.
It still released on Genesis to be a "main" game that's conveniently not included like the other "main" games. If it was remastered like those games were in RSDK, it'd blur the line on what version it was representing.
I think the logic for mainline is simple:
- treated as a big release
- Has sonic as the mai/prominent character
- Developed by sonic team AND familiar gameplay (boost/2D)
- Introduces something that is going to be prolific in the series going forward
But just because its not mainline doesn't mean its not canon. So for instance, Rush, Story Books, and Battle are canon but they're not mainline in my eyes. Same for Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic Riders, and Sonic Dream Team
This
Rush pretty much fits the description. It's mainline for sure.
@@djdrizzy9139 Not sure I agree
Exactly!
6:40 that's me :) thank you for the acknowledgement and compliment
Good job man
Did the whole survey, really good and made me think about what I think of this messed up continuity
a lot people forgetting that sonic speed simulator is confirmed as canon and orbot references flicky island in shadow gens so i think we gotta fit those in too
The distinction between "Mainline" and "Side Game" for me is a super important thing.
Lots of the games people brought up (Game Gear, Advance, Rush, 4, Storybook, Dream Team), definitely deserve to be counted as important to the series, but they weren't neccessarily treated as the "next big step" for the franchise when they were released. Even if I love Rush a lot and feel it would deserve the title, Shadow 2005 released on the exact same day, follows up on major story beats from Adventure 2 and Heroes, and was advertised as a major tonal shift from prior entries.
I think being developed by Sonic Team is a very important factor but not the only deciding factor, for example in my survey I put the Dimps games as Side Games, while Mania and Superstars are Mainline.
I think it is every Sonic Platformer that's made by Sonic Team.
I believe that's a fair assertion.
So Sonic runners is Canon?
"But under those terms, are the games that introduced Blaze and Cream spin-offs?"
Uhm... Juh, maybe I should throw in Dimps as well.
@@P._diddy_disciple - It's probably cannon, but I said Platformers, Sonic Runners has platforming, but is not a platformer, it's a racing game.
@@julianx2rl i believe you're confusing runners and rivals
@@julianx2rl Runners is more of an "endless runner" tbh. You might be confusing it with Rivals, which are a couple of (1-on-1) Racing games. Either way neither are platformers, yea.
Thanks for featuring me in the video. I legitimately almost jumped off of my chair when I heard my name being read out loud.😅
I find it interesting that most people consider the handheld Mario games like Land, NSMB and 3D Land to be mainline Mario without question, but don’t consider the Game Gear, GBA and DS Sonic games mainline.
11:40 it’s cause of how portable games were treated when those games came out, when the game gear games came out companies that would make them often considered handheld games to just be their own thing, just a way to play the game on the go and not really as a main part of the series, this honestly still was present up until the switch came out but around the time the ds came out companies in general started to treat handheld as being important like game consoles and so portable consoles got mainline games for that reason, it’s why old handheld games are less likely to be mainline then newer handheld games
I personally feel intend is the most important for deciding which is which. Whether or not Sega and Sonic Team want it to be a big event or just something to tie fans over is very important.
This actually makes Mania A weird exception though. As it's quite clear that it was meant to be more of a fun little side game to the main event of Sonic Forces (Mania was primarily made by a set of fans whose only previous Sonic work was the mobile ports, while Forces had as much of the main team as possible), but Mania was beloved while Forces was panned. And while Sega cannot backtrack and say "this game with the generation/colors gameplay that we hyped up front to back is it even a main event, lol", they can easily backtrack and say "You know, Sonic Mania was also the main event. I mean, it is the successor to the classic trilogy. (Please ignore the game we explicitly called Sonic 4, that was a mobile title we decided to slap a number onto because of New Super Mario Brothers.)"
So it's debatable whether or not Mania should count. I guess it depends on whether or not you think "retroactive intent" (for lack of a better term) counts.
Sonic 4 is the only 1 that's legit kinda iffy but I'm willin to say side rather than main. Mania is no question a side game not only for the reason u stated but also cus it's not a ST game
@@nightlydata2181-.-Didn't stop them from floating the heck out of it.
@@michaelkindt3288 ??? I'm lost as to wut u mean
@@nightlydata2181-.-I wasn't trying to refute you, I was just pointing out the old meme of how much Sega pushed Mania after it became successful, which many fans considered excessive. (Though to be fair, this is also why I believe Sega consider it to be mainline now.)
@@michaelkindt3288 I didn't say u refuted me. I was jus confused as to wut u meant cus I had no idea. hey did go hard on markettin but that's jus cus it was the 1st genuine classic sonic game in decades. I don't think that in any way makes it mainline. It's still not made by ST & was obv made to help lead into Forces. It also cost half the price of forces too. Success doesn't dictate whether somethin is mainline
I think there's a distinction to be made between Canon and Mainline.
In my opinion every Canon game is every game referenced in Sonic X Shadow Generations and any games referencing those games.
Every Mainline game is every game that has a level in Sonic X Shadow Generations (excluding the 3DS version) + CD, Mania, Lost World and Superstars.
Pretty much every game was referenced in Sonic Gens though aside the game gear stuff
I wouldn't count mania & u'd be missin 05 & the storybook games
@@nightlydata2181 Those aren't mainline games, but they are canon . Mania is 100% mainline.
@@gunman8452 I don't mean like music or trophies. I mean stuff like playable content or stuff mentioned by story. But that that does hold true what you said for the most part.
@@Mudkip971 Mania wasn't made by ST & is clearly a smaller tie in to help lead into the bigger release which was forces so it's factually not mainline. Shadow 05 is a mainline sonic game there's no debate on that. It's the next big release after heroes. SR is supposed to replace the Wii version of 06 they couldn't make cus it would be too big. That's the mainline release for the Wii. It also added very big things to the series like the homing reticle & design elements for the 3D boost games later. It's meant to be mainline & Black knight follows that up as the next big mainline release for the Wii.
0:29 yo is that me😄😄
No way bro
16:18 everything is canon! AAAH!
Ok, it seems people are confusing mainline with canon (except with the people who considers anything mainline), a mainline Sonic game should be the games that are a plataformer and had a big budget for its time, but this would collide with some games, those are: Sonic CD, Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic Boom. Idk what to think for Sonic 4 EP 1 and 2, bc they were supposed to be mobile games (at least the first episode).
8:20 i agree with the assumption that this user is making, a mainline sonic game is the game that represents the "Next Big Thing"
That thumbnail is... *wow*
?
What about it?
It looks SUPER good
IT LOOKS GOOD, ALSO HI, Tails_Forever.
@@swiftthehedgehog-fastestthingA Hi!
I feel like mainline games that have a connection with one another. Sonic Rivals, Rush, Game Gear & Advance Games, 3D Blast, Storybook, 4 Ep 1 & 2, Knuckles Chaotix, Runners, Racing Games, SegaSonic, Dream Team
Pretty sure mainline just means a major release, canon or not.
2:54 If we're going off the lost in the description survey, that means one of his hobbies is turning into legos.
I believe the idea of mainline doesn’t matter it mostly depends on what is added to the timeline that sticks. A example would be Silver he first debut in 06 but was then retconned but did appear in Rivals. So I think any new event or characters added to the timeline could be considered as mainline if they are brought back or mentioned again in later games
I agree. Wish i could change my answers for the Advanced Trilogy and Sonic Rush series
canon doesn't dictate wut's mainline
@@nightlydata2181 the term mainline is so loose with Sonic it’s hard to tell where the line is
@@Hypersonic-hg8kd it's really not. The only 1 that's questionable is Sonic 4 other than that all of them R pretty clear cut
I will never believe secret rings and black knight arent mainline, theyre both made in house BY sonic team and on a home console, and the story is canon to the sonic universe if im not mistaken, or at least it ties into it in some way shape or form
I consider them canon solely based on when sonic says like half a line about evil genies in generations after restoring green hill
canon doesn't equal to mainline tho
They can be canon without being "mainline". I chose to call them "side games" in the survey because SEGA themselves gave them a separate label, hence why we call them the "Storybook" games in the first place, but that doesn't make them unimportant.
It doesnt really feel right imo. Theyre def canon but the vibes are literally otherworldy to other mainline sonic games. Maybe if if it was one game instead of a series then itd be mainline but its like the New Super Mario dilemma where the first game was a unique but then branched into a seprate series all together.
@@hamstersandwich9917 new super mario bros is still mainline tho
Good on you for shouting out the people you got the idea of the video from
Glad you took my idea of doing a survey! But man, doing it I realized there's a LOT of Sonic games.
I think majority of us can agree that it's set in stone Sonic 1, 2, 3 (& Knuckles) , and Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 are mainline. Probably the 5 most important Sonic games
The boost games are definitely a set in stone as well. I don’t think anyone would argue that Colors or Unleashed aren’t a mainline title, and especially not Generations or Frontiers
What about CD? Thats Amy’s first debut🫲🤨🫱
@@Grim0XVr also it’s literally part of sonic origins and almost was on mega collection but the sega cd emulator still needed work. It’s very much mainline
I consider 3 and knuckles to be 2 games, but most people dont
The mainline games are the big noteworthy Sonic Team releases that come out every 4-5 years. Sonic 1 and 2, CD, 3K, Adventure 1 and 2, Heroes, 06, Unleashed, Colors, Generations, Lost World, Forces, and Frontiers are all of the mainline games. Stuff like Mania and Superstars, the Advance and Rush games, Sonic 4, and so on are side games - they are still canon, but they mainly just exist to fill the void between mainline releases, keeping the money flowing and allowing the series to stay relevant.
Me on my way to put sonic labyrinth as mainline
I think a good indicator that a game is mainline is that the game is a platformer (obviously) and was released on more than 1 console, because if it didn’t get multiple versions at the start or a port later on, then it‘s probably not that important.
Although this alone would leave a bunch of the Game Gear games and Sonic 4 as mainline which I don’t agree with so it‘s not completely comprehensive
Here’s my list of mainline sonic games in chronological order
- Sonic 1
- Sonic CD
- Sonic 2
- Sonic 3 (Sonic Route)
- Sonic & Knuckles (Sonic Route
- Sonic 3 (Knuckles Route)
- Sonic & Knuckles (Knuckles Route)
- Sonic Mania
- Sonic Mania (Encore Mode)
- Sonic 3D Blast
- Sonic Superstars
- Sonic Adventure
- Sonic Advance
- Sonic Advance 2
- Sonic Adventure 2
- Sonic Battle
- Sonic Advance 3
- Sonic Heroes
- Shadow ‘05
- Sonic ‘06
- Sonic Unleashed
- Sonic Colours Ultimate
- Sonic X Shadow Generations
- Sonic Lost World
- Sonic Forces
- Sonic Frontiers
Im sure the knuckles story in sonic 3 & knuckles is after mania but before 3d blast
I always considered mainline based on Generations and Sonic's abilities in the games. So the three main core eras (Classic, Dreamcast, Modern) eras as the foundation. Then you fit the games in between depending on what abilities Sonic has obtained throughout each era and what he looked like. So for example my list would be
S1
SCD
S2
S3+K
Mania (cause classic sonic got some new abilities during his time in generations ie drop dash which he used his SXS G)
Super Stars (cause he also used it in that game)
S4 (Episode 1+2. Cause he has his modern looks but still plays like his classic counterpart)
The Advance Trilogy
Adventure 1
Adventure 2
Heros
Shadow the Hedgehog
(Technically 06 cause it did happen but now is erased. Although non-existent, SxSG acknowledged 06 based on Crisis City, Kingdom Valley and Mephiles)
Either The Rush Trilogy or Sonic Unleashed because he got his boost at this time
Colors
SxSG
Lost World (weird he didn't use his boost in this time but technically this took place after generations since the last stage was a Colors stage that took place first before Lost World)
Forces
Frontiers
That's my personal list
An interesting thing I realized when being asked what's a side game or a spinoff: Many of the games that fail the "mainline" qualifications purely by stint of obscurity do fall under the "side game" category, as do some of the more well-known games that don't control _quite_ the same. I also noticed that to count as a side game, it had to be canon, while spinoffs don't always need to be (Spinball due to too many Emeralds, Boom because that's a different continuity, etc.) I also noticed that there was a significant glut of spinoffs from the Wii to recently, of the "merely decent" variety. On their own not harmful, but to that extent?
Interesting video! Honestly what should be considered mainline are the ones that everyone generally agrees on (Classics, Adventures etc) and plus all of the others that have a canon character or expand to the story. Like Battle, Rush with Blaze of course (although it’s weird that it’s even a consideration lol) & etc
My list is tied very closely to Pariah695’s mainline list because he is THE MOST KNOWLEDGEABLE PERSON on the subject of Sonic the Hedgehog.
Cybershell exists
No he is not. He's definitely quite knowledgeable and very smart, but please don't treat his opinions as gospel. He has some pretty bad takes sometimes
Doing tricks on it
no he isnt lmao.
@@BBK113 sonic rush trick sfx
What honestly bothers me so much is the Tails games... Sure, Shadow 05 can be debated, but you'd generally get enough evidence that it is indeed a Canon/Mainline Sonic game. And by that logic I also include the 32x title Chaotix (K-Chaotix in the west). But Tails' games are such a departure that even Tails' Adventure is hardly even canon, let alone Mainline... But if you include it, does that mean 90% (if not all) of 8-bit games mainline? If not, that means that Tails is the only character from the main characters that hasn't received a mainline Sonic game. Which is such a crime man... He is straight up the OG deuteragonist and you wouldn't give him a mainline game?
Yeah, just a thought/pet peeve that crossed my mind that I wanted to share, Thanks for your videos man, don't ever stop creating
10:50 Shadow not existing as a character is insane
Canon and Maineline is NOT the same thing.
Battle is canon but not a mainline game.
For my survey inputs, I just put in everything that has been established to have happened/have to have happened as mainline.
I figured it meant in terms of importance for the Sonic universe/lore and could be interchanged with canon.
Oh wow, I didn't expect to get featured in the vid, haha.
I would amend my statement a little bit though. I think if it's a platformer and is not directly referred to as a different branch by SEGA themselves, then it is essentially mainline.
Because if it's not a platformer, then it's a spinoff by default, no matter how much their contributions matter (see Rivals and Riders). And if SEGA refers to these games separately, then that also means these games aren't directly mainline, such as the Storybook games having their own unique label (hence why they're called like that in the first place; it's the name SEGA gave them) or Boom failing so badly it fell back into being a separate branch despite being SEGA's vision once upon a time.
I insist that all versions of any given mainline game is mainline even if it is not canon, though. The 8-bit versions of Sonic 1 & 2 are still meant to be those games but on handheld, likewise for some of the modern games having DS/3DS "ports". Plus this allows us the leniency to count their direct sequels as some level of mainline as well, as the 8-bit ports are sort of package with the "Sonic & Tails" games, and Colors DS is basically packaged with the Rush duology which itself is arguably also part of a greater whole featuring the Advance trilogy (although I would say Battle is canon but not mainline due to its genre shift; another case of "plot-relevant spinoff" in the franchise really).
... Knuckles's Chaotix and Sonic 3D Blast are weird for me tho, as they're technically platformers and don't have any other labels but are just incredibly bizarre to put side by side with other games I give the label to.
Sonic Blast for Game Gear is not in any package deal with the other Game Gear titles so I can at least confidently call that one a side game. Same with Sonic Jam on the gamecom, which I wouldn't want to subject *anyone* to anyways. '^^
A mainline Sonic game is a game that has significant impact to the series, games like SA1, and SA2 are mainline, but games like Sonic rush arent as they are clearly just side games
Sonic Rush is NOT a side game
@@CauaFriendsOficialwhats wrong with Rush being a side game?
@@hamstersandwich9917 it's not, as it introduced, yes, the BOOST GAUGE, and teo very important characters in the series: Blaze and Eggman Nega. And the Sol Dimension.
@CauaFriendsOficial while it's true that Rush introduced the boost gauge, calling blaze and Nega very important is a stretch tbh. I love Blaze as much as the next person but her impact on the series doesn't go beyond those games as she doesnt come back Beyond references and sponoffs. She's in mostly popular in the fanbase rather than the series as a whole. Nega is also pretty forgettable as a character as he's just a pallette swap eggman.
@@hamstersandwich9917 eggman nega i can understand, but Blaze is important (at least on the lore, check the idw metal virus saga for example)
Actually, gameplay concepts that would be in adventure (such as the homing attack, in the form of a shield) as well as automated loops. In addition, Jun re-used some compositions initally for 3D blast. These two factors point to the idea that Sonic Team likely looked at 3D blast when making Adventure.
I really like lucasg5021’s thoughts on mainline games. Using the games featured in Generations as basis for which games are mainline makes a lot of sense because just like you said, it’s what Sega themselves sees as canon
A mainline would be stories that all connect to each other as one big universe or something. Spin offs are like racing games, sports, storybook games, sonic boom etc. Side games could be like mobile and arcade games, and maybe the tails games, and the collection games. A game that isn’t a sonic game would be like Lego sets, Mean Bean Machine etc.
You shouldn't have given me the power of the "Do you want to say anything else?" box... I wrote a novel to explain all of the oddcases in my choices. ;w;
My logic going into the survey:
Mainline - crucial to Sonic lore, canon, and platformer with Sonic as the main playable character (with the exception of Shadow 05)
Side game - adds to the lore somewhat, platformer, and canon, and Sonic is playable
Spin-off - features a Sonic universe character but either doesn't add to the lore, isn't a platformer, or Sonic isn't a playable character or isn't canon
4:06 bro really said “shadow 06”
He said. “Heros, Shadow, 06.”
@@Grim0XVrit still sounds like he said “shadow 06”and I prefer to believe e that because it’s funnier
@ ok…
I've been a fan of Sonic since 91, and the 8 bit versions are part of my childhood (just like the 16 bits). As much as I love both series, I've always considered 8 bit and 16 bit games as separated timelines. for example, in the 8 bit soni, there are only (or at least they only found) 6 emeralds, which explains the lack of super sonic. There are several other discrepancies, but the idea is that they are alternative realities, or "what if". but both are canonical, just separate and unconnected. In fact, if Sega were smart, they could take this idea and continue 8-bit sonics as something separate, in current times... (in my opinion, of course)
I think it's funny how this changed over the years. 15-20 years ago 3D Blast was considered a mainline game as it was made as the next big entry and
made for the Saturn. Archie and Fleetway has huge marketing for 3D Blast as well as all the gaming magazines. Other games from that time like Triple Trouble, Knuckles Chaotix and Sonic R didn't have that level of marketing, and was considered side games to fill the gap. Sonic X-treme, although canceled was also marketed as the next big entry after 3D Blast.
Similarly, Sonic 4 ep 1 and 2 in the early 10s were considered mainline as they were stated to take place between Sonic 3&K and Adventure, 3D Blast already forgotten. Sonic 4 was considered a good game back then, it only sourer a few years later. While Sonic Mania wasn't considered mainline as it was during the time when Classic was considered its own thing.
The Riders series was considered a side game not part of the canon, while the story book games were. However, recently Riders has been canonized with IDW and is now considered mainline by SEGA. Story book games are divided, not just in terms of mainline, but even it's canonicity.
My personal opinion on the mainline games:
Sonic 1
Sonic CD
Sonic 2
Sonic 3&K
Sonic 3D Blast
Sonic Mania
Sonic Superstars
Sonic Adventure
Sonic Adventure 2
Sonic Heroes
Shadow 05
Sonic 06
Sonic and Secret Rings
Sonic Unleashed
Sonic and the Black Knight
Sonic Gens
Shadow Gens
Sonic Lost World
Sonic Forces
Sonic Frontiers
Sonic Dream Team
Other games not mainline, but still important to it.
Sonic Chaos, Sonic Triple Trouble, Sonic Pocket Adventure, Sonic Advance 1, 2, 3, Sonic Rush, Rush Adventure, Rivals 1, 2 and the Riders series somewhere in the timeline. Along with Murder of Sonic.
Games that introduce characters that have become intrinsic to the series should be canon. All the ones you mentioned in the original video plus Triple Trouble (Fang the Sniper), Chaotix (Espio, Vector, and Charmy), Sega Sonic(Mighty and Ray), Rush (Blaze the Cat) , and Advance (Cream the Rabbit and Cheese).
My main metric is how much budget went into it compared to other games around that time
You know that feature that let's one video have a few different thumbnails? What if this video has a bunch of different thumbnails that are the exact same except the comment calls a different game mainline
My part of the timeline: there is sonic, sonic cd (even though he used the spin dash here, the game mentions that he learned it from tails), sonic 2, sonic 3, sonic and knuckles, mania, superstars, and adventure 1.
I've always used Generations as the barometer for "mainline." If it got a level or boss fight in Gens, it's definitely mainline. If it was limited to just artwork or a song in the galleries, it's a side game.
The classic games (including CD), Adventure games, Heroes, Shadow, 06, Unleashed, and Colors are all mainline for sure. Forces and Frontiers also are due to Shadow Gens.
Stuff like Chaotix, 3D Blast, the Storybook games, and Sonic 4 are side games.
But it gets iffy once you get into the games that have come out *since* Generations. Lost World, Mania, and Superstars definitely should be mainline, if you ask me.
6:54 also this comment is completely correct they've kinda stated before that a lot of stuff is cannon and even tho a lot of it is remember when sonic x tried to fix some of adventure 1 and 2 issues i feel like that show has lot of cannon stuff like how sonic is drifter he doesn't really have a home but hearing that in one of the tails tube episodes that he sometimes hangs out at tails's homes it makes me think he kinda sleeps there sometimes too but yeah
🎶How do we know what's mainline? Everything is senseless cause there's no consensus🎶
I also think some people forget that canon doesn’t mean mainline
To me there's four factors that determine whether it's mainline or not:
-Story: Is it canon? Does it bring anything to the table or it's never mentioned again? (This would discard 3D Blast and Sonic 4)
-Gameplay: Are the characters running and jumping or are they doing something completely different? (This would discard Riders and Shuffle)
-Characters: Is Sonic a main character? (This would discard Shadow 05 and Knuckles Chaotix)
-Console: Was it designed to be a home console/pc game? (This would discard the Advance games, the Rush games and the game gear games that got ported to the Master System)
Keep in mind, that makes the games mainline, but it doesn't mean they aren't canon. Also, you could make an argument Shadow Gens is canon because it actually comes bundled in with Sonic Gens, and 06 just erases itself so it would also count.
After Sonic X Shadow gens, it feels weird calling Shadow 05 a spin off or side series as its the closest of those games to being mainline
@hamstersandwich9917 fair point, it's the only exception I'd make (Chaotix and the Tails game gear games aren't as important lore wise)
Sonic 3D was just mentioned by Shadow Generations.
now you should ask sonic fans which ships are the best/cannon. Watch the fanbase implode
Sonic 1, Sonic 2, Sonic CD, Sonic 3&K, Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, Sonic 06, Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Colors, Sonic Generations, Sonic Forces, Sonic Frontiers
missin 05 & storybook
I doubt you're going to get a definitive answer with any Sonic fan when it comes to Mainline games
For me, a Main Line Sonic Game has to tick All 3 Of These Criteria:
1). A Clear Story (Where you can tell what the story is from the game from just playing the game itself)
2). Significant World-building (Games which introduce significant lore &/or new characters that have made a major impact on the main line series (EG, Knuckles, Shadow, Chaos, Silver, Sage)
3). Was released (or re-released) on the mainline consoles of the time (Sega Genesis, Dreamcast, X-Box, Playstaion, Wii, PC)
If a game does not meet all 3 of these criteria, but meets 2 of them; they’re are a side game (EG the Advance games, the Rush games, the Riders games (Yes, the Riders games don’t meet the 2nd Criteria. The Babylon Rogues & their games haven’t made that major of an impact on the series. They’re pretty standalone in nature & gameplay wise are different to the other games)). The only exceptions being crossover games with other IPs. There are no stories in those & are really just Sonic characters as selected characters to play rather than being full on Sonic Games, so they are regarded as Spin-Offs
Sonic CD was an outlier for the longest time because of its release on the Sega CD add-on (& whether or not an add-on should count as part of the main console range is difficult to say). However, because it was re-released not only on its own in 2011 on all major consoles but was considered a major re-release at the time, that solidifies its placement as a Main Line Sonic Game. Shadow Generations is another tricky one as it does tick all the criteria above, but because of its short length & unavailable status on its own outside of Sonic Generations, I see that as mainline but paired with Sonic Generations (akin to Sonic 3 & Knuckles).
The only change I can see here is if Knuckles Chaotix ever gets a major solo re-release akin to Sonic CD. If that ever happens, it has a slight chance of joining Shadow 05 in the ‘Mainline Sonic games which don’t really star Sonic but meets everything else so f*ck it, why not?’
So my list of ‘Mainline Sonic Games’ goes like this:
1). Sonic The Hedgehog (1991 - 16bit)
2). Sonic The Hedgehog 2 (1992 - 16bit)
3). Sonic CD (1993)
4). Sonic The Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles (1994)
5). Sonic Adventure (1998)
6). Sonic Adventure 2 (2001)
7). Sonic Heroes (2003)
8). Shadow The Hedgehog (2005)
9). Sonic 06 (2006)
10). Sonic Unleashed (2008)
11). Sonic Colours (2010)
12). Sonic X Shadow Generations (2011/2024)
13). Sonic Lost World (2013)
14). Sonic Mania (2017)
15). Sonic Forces (2017)
16). Sonic Frontiers (2022)
17). Sonic Superstars (2023)
Also, there is a difference between ‘Canon’ & ‘Main Line.’ I think most Sonic games are canon. All of the games which I classified as ‘Side Games’ are still canon. It’s from Spinoffs where the canonicity of game can be called into question
I think that any Sonic game when playing as Sonic, where the gameplay is about traditional platforming (in 2D or 3D) and the goal is to get to the end of each (non-boss) stage is what I'd consider mainline. This definition only bothers me in regard to the Boom games, as that is how those games play, but they're also undeniably like a spinoff alternate reality series. So they might be the exception to my rule.
I feel like anything Classic Sonic from Generations-onward is non canon to the Modern Sonic we know now, as if Generations had split their paths.
I think a side game is like a remake (ex:the 8-bit classic games)
I'm gonna fill the survey
Sonic Labyrinth is the first 3D Mainline game in my opinion :)
I don't think It is
@@goguitos nope, totally the first one bud
Personal definition of "mainline sonic game "
1: a side scrolling or 3d platformer
2: Playing as sonic the hedgehog is mandatory to complete the game
3: The game was released on a mass market game console aimed at general audiences (so no arcade games, no educational games for babies)
Once you fulfill those 3 criteria congratulations! You're a mainline sonic game! You don't have to be canon or good or even made by sonic team!
So basically games like sonic 3d blast are mainline while knuckles chaotix isn't because the latter doesn't fulfil criteria 2. Ditto for shadow 05.
Hard to pick which one’s a spin off and which one’s not, as a spin off is typically an installment in a franchise that stars a side character as the main lead, who’s writing style is different from the original, and it’s show has a different tone.
There’s not even a crossover section.
Most uhinged answer is any game adapted into the Archie comics, which would include Chaotix
is funny to me see a person say that ds port are not mainline, when i heard that someone in sega said sonic colors ds is like a more complete version of sonic colors
i still count sonic r as mainline due to the saturn not having a proper sonic game due to sonic xtreme being cancelled, so for the console to have a sonic game, sega had to work with TT to turn a in-development F1 game into a sonic game, which became sonic r, and other than jam and 3d blast, sonic r is still the only fully original sonic game for the console, and since it was co developed by sonic team and is still a platformer, it should count
The handheld ones should should be their own thing along with the Wii/U one. Boom is its own thing in its entirety
Bro put the Lego-Set in the survey
I consider the mainline games to be the platformers and everything else to be spin-offs/side games
What separates Game Gear games from Advance + Rush series as mainline to me is whether they push the gameplay of the series forward. Advance iterates over the Genesis games with features like the jump dash + homing attack, melee attacks, air tricks, rail grinding and Advance 2's "Boost Mode", whereas the Game Gear games are more like demakes trying to fit Genesis gameplay on inferior hardware with not many new features with staying power.
I would not consider sonic boom a mianline game, as it wasn't made by sonic team, and it is just a buggy kids game that would work with any other character.
Part of the argument about whether Advance and Rush are main is because they were made by Dimps, which is understandable (but also pointless when people consider Mania mainline), but the other part is just because they're handheld games and I really don't agree with that. There used to be a stigma around handheld games as being "lesser" but I think that's largely gone away, both as handhelds kinda died out and as phone games took on that stigma. With Mario for instance the Mario Land games used to frequently be ignored as minor games but these days are counted by a lot of people. They still don't get as much attention as the console games though so if that's also important for being mainline then idk.
On that note, Sonic Dream Team seems to be in an awkward position where a lot of people who have played it count it as a mainline game, but because of the Apple Arcade thing most sonic fans can't play it and so it gets ignored. If it ever does get a PC release I think it might be in a similar position as Superstars, but for now... no one's buying an ipad just for this.
I think I agree about Sonic 3D Blast historically being mainline just because it was meant to fill the gap left by Xtreme's cancellation. I don't see it called main these days as much as it used to be though, but I think historical consideration like that should count.
Oh and I think the 2011 remake of Sonic CD was a big aspect in redeeming it and getting people to finally recognize it as one of the original main titles.
hold up i think 3D blast should be mainline
How to start a war in 5 minutes shirt guide!
Every game with a banger soundtrack is mainline
i consider robotniks mean bean machine and spin ball and 3d blast main line 1 because sonic origins 2 how robotniks mean bean machine (puyo puyo) was in mania
There's only one mainline Sonic game, and it's Waku Waku Sonic Patrol Car
the advance games or just advance 3 can be canon or mainline because its referenced later in the idw sonic comics and the comics are considered to take place after forces
I see no problem with 3D blast being mainline.
The survey doesn't include Sonic Unleashed Wii/PS2 nor Sonic Lost World 3DS
Edit: Sonic Unleashed Wii is a different game content-wise and so is the mobile version
The level designs and controls and some mechanics like the boost are severely different so it warrants being counted as a separate game
i used to be a "3d blast is mainline" truther though overtime i've changed my perspective. it largely came down to market importance for me at the time, 3d blast was the big sonic release in 1996 and the only "traditional" platformer on the saturn. i similarly considered the handheld platformers (s1 & 2 gg, chaos, triple trouble, advance and rush trilogies, and gens and lost world 3ds) to be mainline. nowadays it comes down to me, to "sonic team developed platformers with lasting impact on the canon that were promoted heavily as their big release that year", so my list now is sonic 1, 2, cd, 3k, adventure, adventure 2, heroes, shadow, 06, unleashed, colors, generations, lost world, forces, frontiers, and shadow generations, with special exceptions including mania and superstars as sonic team oversaw those projects and, at least at this point in time, considers them just as important as their own games (especially mania, given it ties directly into forces)
secret rings and black knight i go back and forth on a lot, they fit a lot of the criteria and arguably did have a lasting impact in the form of being the games that the b team worked on before getting to do colors and lost world, but i dunno. they're in an awkward place and sonic team doesn't seem to value them much in the grand scheme of canon despite being pretty big deals at the time.
A mainline game really is :
- no racing,fighting,party
-made by sonic team
-must be on a home console
-sonic games that have other protagonist that aren't seen as important (not shadow tho)
-games mustn't be on hand helds (ds, 3ds, gba, neo geo)
-mustn't be 8 bit
I don't remember what all my votes were but honestly when it comes to the 8-Bit Sonic games they are fantastic but because they were released basically in unison with the 16 bit Sonic games I just consider the 8-Bit wants to be side games. I don't remember what I said about the Sonic Advance games. I think I considered them Cannon because cream the rabbit was introduced in Sonic Advance 2. I do think I considered Sonic colors DS to be a side game because I don't think that game is ever referenced even though it's a damn good game
I consider Sonic R mainline because its the only big release on the Sega Saturn. Its also the first real 3D Sonic platformer (not counting Sonic the fighters)
For me the games that are mainline are games that have levels in Sonic X Shadow Gens, games that introduce a reacuring and a couple games after sonic gens. Here is my list
-Sonic 1
-Sonic 2
-Sonic CD
-Sonic 3&K
-Knuckles Chaotix
-SegaSonic
-All the 8bit games
-Sonic Adventure
-Sonic Adventure 2
-Sonic Heroes
-Sonic Battle
-Sonic advance 1, 2 and 3
-Sonic Rush
-Sonic 06
-Shadow 05
-Sonic Colours
-Sonic Unleashed
-Sonic Generations
-Sonic Forces
-Sonic Mania Plus
-Sonic Frontiers
-Sonic Superstars
-Shadow Generations
-Sonic Dream Team
Also the Sonic Rivals games because it’s the first time sonic and friends meet silver technically
I agree there's some ambiguity over what's as Mainline or not, but SO too many of the comments in the video are being way too loose with the term or think it means something else. A game can be canon or contribute to the series's characters or lore without being mainline, "mainline" its what the next main entry was. It can get weird with Sonic 4 (where it's not really the next main title but is ostensibly a sequel to one that was), Lost World, or the 2d titles since generations which is sort of a parallel line of titles to the boost games; but stuff like Advance, Rush, etc just clearly do not count, they're not even made by Sonic Team and have titled subseries! MO, the unambiguous mainline titles are 1, 2, 3&K, SA1, SA1, Heroes, 06, Unleashed, Generations, Forces, and Frontiers.
CD, Shadow, Sonic 4, Colors, Mania, and Superstars probably SHOULD count, but I can see arguments against them: CD, Sonic 4, and Mania were all not really intended to be mainline releases at the time I don't believe, but retroactively sort of have become so due to how the series has evolved and framed itself since: CD is now basically an alternate Sonic 2, 4 is a sequel to 3&K as is arguably Mania and either/both can be credited to kickstarting a parrelel line of main titles which Superstars has codified as being major releases alongside the 3d titles, and Colors was made by Sonic team and seems to have been their main project after Unleashed, same with Shadow after Heroes, even if the former was invisioned as a Wii exclusive and the latter doesn't feature Sonic. Both also fit within the gameplay formula the series was establishing at the time.
Lost World and the Storybook games I can KINDA see arguements for, in that they aren't that different from colors as a Nintendo exclusive title(s), but their gameplay styles are different and the latter are outright titled as a subseries. I really don't see any other title in the series even debatable counting other then ShadowGens but I think that's too recent to really comment on.
As an aside, next survey, I would allow people to select multiple options at once (EX: a game is both a spinoff and a side game, not that I see a real distinction between the terms), and also a "probably is mainline" "is probably not mainline" in addition to "I don't know", which I would call instead "maybe mainline"
I agree with the majority of those, but I do want to add that in terms of the endings of all the games, the better ending is the canon ending for me. Yeah, I'm looking at you, Frontiers. For most of the games, the best ending IS the canon ending but for Frontiers, people are saying the original, TRASH, ending is canon. NO. I say the better ending is the canon one, and anything that gets in the way of that I will push through. The original ending sucked and the new one added in the Final Horizon is better, therefore that one is canon, NO QUESTIONS.
I can't believe my insightful comment wasn't included smdh
Im moreso surprised that Sonic Pocket Adventure wasnt mentioned
mainline and canon are two different things. i consider mainline being the BIG releases, not the side projects.
I think it's a mistake to think in terms of "mainline" for Sonic. Once upon a time, you could look at major releases on SEGA's main console at the time (this is why you have people citing Sonic 3D Blast and maybe doubting Sonic CD, since the Genesis was a more mainstream console than the SEGA CD). But after Dreamcast, there is no SEGA console.
Once upon a time, you could look at "traditional Sonic gameplay" to exclude games like Mean Bean Machine or Sonic Spinball. But 2D Sonic gameplay is a different animal than 3D Sonic gameplay, and the Adventure games introduced a wide array of non-Sonic gameplay (e.g. treasure hunting, mecha riding) in a clearly mainstream Sonic series.
It's just more useful to use terms like "the Genesis games", "the Advance games", "the Adventure games", "the 3D boost games", "the Modern Classic Sonic games", etc.
My criteria for mainline is the game has to introduce new characters, reference, or continute events/story from past games
Sonic 1, 2, 3&k, CD, Knuckles Chaotix, only because it introduced team Chaotix. Chaos ig, I haven't played chaos. Triple Trouble, Adventure games, advance games, heroes, rush games, shadow 05 and sonic 06, sonic 4, unleashed, colors, lost world, generations/shadow generations, mania, forces, frontiers, and Superstars.
I think a Mainline Sonic Game has to meet these criteria:
- It focuses mainly on Sonic
- It is a Platformer
- It was released on a Standard Console, not a handheld
- It is canon to the main Sonic timeline
- It was pushed as a big release and not as a smaller release in-between the major releases
With that in mind, my list of Mainline Sonic games are:
Sonic 1
Sonic 2
Sonic CD
Sonic 3&Knuckles
Sonic Adventure 1
Sonic Adventure 2
Sonic '06
Sonic Unleashed
Sonic Colors
Sonic Generations
Sonic Lost World
Sonic Mania
Sonic Forces
Sonic Frontiers
Sonic x Shadow Generations
Sonic Superstars
This feels unfair I left the internet to go study for my exams and the survey happened like damn.
Im not completely sure if triple trouble should be considered mainline. Sure you could argue that the events of s3&k continue into TT, but if that's the case, then why was knuckles tricked by eggman again? You could also argue TT is canon since it introduced Fang The Sniper who hasn't returned until Superstars.
Ok so here’s what I consider mainline and I’ll also add my timeline for fun and in case you plan or want to make a spin-off with the “canon”. Okay I consider Sonic ‘91 (It’s an inside joke) , Sonic 2, CD, 3&K, Mania, Sonic Adventure duology, Heroes, Shadow ‘05, Sonic ‘06, Rush duology, Unleashed, Colors, Sonic Generations and Sonic + Shadow Generations, Lost World, Forces, and Frontiers. And also I want to point out that canon is very different from mainline so I’ll say those too, Tails Adventure, Sega Sonic Arcade, Classic Sonic Tetralogy (In order of Origins’ Story Mode) + plus Mania (but not mania adventures/plus bc of the forces retcon), Sonic and Tails duology, 3D Blast, Sky Patrol, Sonic 4: Superstars, Sonic Pocket Adventure (Where Eggman gets his modern suit), Sonic Adventure duology, Heroes, Shadow ‘05, (No Sonic ‘06 aside from the remnants of it in white space limbo), Rush Duology, Storybook duology, Unleashed, Colors, Shadic Gens, Lost World, Forces, TMOSTH, and Frontiers.
Sonic 3D Blast is mainline. It's a Sonic adventure that's it's unique and it has influence as the first 3D attempt. (Maybe Sonic Labyrinth is mainline too??)