Thanks for the comment, PompadourSamurai. I think weaving multiple diverse plot threads through a story makes a much more interesting tapestry than overly relying on a standard, western three act structure.
This is a very interesting paradigm. Watched all 3 of your videos, and it was very helpful. I feel like all story paradigms are essentially the same, the difference is on emphasis. Watching the The Promised Neverland pilot, which is a very interesting concept (which I think is at the heart of why anime is so beloved, you'd never get a concept like this in western stories). The emphasis on the character's desire is very restrained, she's interested by the outside world but she doesn't really want to go out. If the The Promised Neverland was a western story the biggest changes they'd make is this. They'd make Emma want to go outside really badly from act 1. And there would be emphasis on the character taking said action at act 1 and ultimately leading to a traditional 3 act structure. But watching the anime, Emma likes being at the Orphanage. She's learning, she's has a family she loves, she gets to play, etc. She loves her home (which makes it all the more ironic when she finds out it's a farm). She wants to see what's outside the fence, but it's more out of curiosity rather than a desire for something more. Emma doesn't really have that desire to leave until the midpoint. * * SPOILERS FOR ACROSS THE SPIDER-VERSE BELOW * * I was watching Across The Spider-Verse, and it felt off in terms of the 3 act structure of Hollywood films. The first act has a small intro with Gwen that really sets up the theme of the story; which is identity, it's about being who you are and feeling like you belong to something that understands and accepts you. I don't know about the rest of The Promised Neverland show, but based on that "Ken" segment of the story, it's probably freedom vs bondage; and what greater prison is there than one where you deluded into believing you're free and loved? But back to Spider-Verse. The movie doesn't really end its act 1 break until a little over the 1 hour mark(if going by 3 act structure), and it doesn't really have an inciting incident or "Twist" until he finds out the Spider-Verse team is really all about making people who are meant to die actually die(happens around the 65% mark), they go against his values and now he has a goal which is save his dad, and then the cliffhanger ending. Ki- Gwen and Miles are struggling with their identity. Sho - Gwen and Miles being heroes in their ordinary word. Ten- Miles gets inverted to the spider-verse group and finds out they are letting people die, and they want him to stop being Spider-Man and Gwen knew. Ketsu- For Miles and Gwen its to change and realize the people they belong with are their family, and the people that love them. Ends unresolved. Particularly for Miles it's about resolving his flaw of dishonesty, which is formed by the fear of believing his parents won't accept who he really is. Also the interesting thing that might make Across the Spider-verse a Kishotenketsu is that the side character, Gwen, is the character with the actual goal, while Miles is just along for the ride until the theme hits them in the face with the twist. It seems to me that kishotenketsu prioritizes theme and character over the traditional western 3 act which prioritizes desire and objective. Both have all 4 elements but they both use different emphasis. You always hear in every 3 act paradigm, the main character has to have a desire and a goal. Which makes you ask "why?", there's nothing that says you HAVE to do that, it's nice see that this paradigm not only does by says you should. For example, using the 3 act structure paradigm, Luke wants to be a Jedi and his objective is to deliver the plans to Alderaan. While Han Solo doesn't really have that so the theme and character take priority of the first film; ultimately in the Han Solo, kishotenketsu paradigm story of A New Hope, it's about what it means to be a hero or a good person; having it be a aloft mercenary is the perfect character for that. Han Solo has no desire other than to keep making money, until the story forces him to make a change. Really interesting video. Learned a lot. Thank you. And if you read about to this point, thank you as well.
Across the Spider-verse is also a "Part One", which means it's actually just half a story, hence why it probably doesn't fit an obvious structure easily
@@trueoutlaw13 this is a bit of a delayed reply but the film does have structure. There is an element of Miles sort of being the main character in Gwen's story. It doesn't have a major 2nd Act central conflict, kind of meanders through it. Sure at the end of the day there are very western standards of story structure in it, but it felt more kishotenketsu like when compared to other massive blockbuster films especially in the superhero genre.
Here’s a tip for those planning to write a Kishotenketsu: Western stories (ones with the three act structure) come from a plot idea Eastern stories (like ones using Kishotenketsu come from a concept
Ok just some more clarification: by concept, I mean a what if question. What if a guy with a god complex gets the ability to kill anyone at will? (Death note) What if a spy, an assassin, and a telepath form a fake family where they have to hide their identities from each other? (Spy x family)
Thank you for this video, illustrating this narrative principle with some concrete examples is actually very helpful and it's difficult to find such content :) I would argue on the determinism term though. I think it's not inherently wrong and it's a way of putting it. I would suggest that Japan culture and society is more about conformism and a sense of harmony. Determinism word relate a lot to the philosophical concept developped in europe in the XIX century and is a very "mechanistic" vision of the world. The eastern approche of Ki Sho Ten Ketsu makes me think a lot more about the taoist philosophy of Wu Wei which is deeply spiritual, holistic and more about "going with the flow" and "effortless action" by emotionnaly accepting things you don't have control on.
We play TTRPGs like Dungeons & Dragons. Every game session is like an episode or partial episode of an anime. I can see how Kishotenketsu and Determinism can make for great adventures. The imaginary world that the Game Master creates to run the Player Characters through will continue whether the PCs/Adventurers deal with the village destroying monsters or not. If they do, then that threat is defeated and they might find out why those monsters were attacking the village. Several different reasons could lead to more semi-related adventures. If they don't, what will happen could eventually escalate to a much, much greater threat later.
I think it would make a great addition to your toolkit as a DM. Nintendo has started using Kishotenketsu to craft puzzles for their Mario games. I've never been a DM and only played a few rounds of D&D myself, but I have to imagine you could use a similar methodology to craft puzzles and quests.
Whilst I’ve loved this series as a whole and have found many interesting takeaways, I think there’s an issue with using episodes of an anime as prime examples. I feel like lots of western tv, especially the first episode of the series, uses this structure to make sure you tune in for the next episode. Something dramatic shifts right at the end with little to no explanation. It would be good to demonstrate Kishōtenketsu in either anime films, or maybe in an anime series as a whole. Sorry to be critical, as I said before I loved the series and have learnt a lot, so thank you!
Hi Eternity. Sorry for not responding sooner. The internet is spotty where I am. I started by researching the three act structure and branched out from there. Then I researched three act alternatives and dived down as many rabbit holes as I could. Most of my research has been through Google and UA-cam. If you want more on the Kishotenketsu method, try this article: www.kimyoonmiauthor.com/post/641948278831874048/worldwide-story-structures It should give you a good start. I hope that helped.
@@eternity4435 There are a few ways you could go. When I have time again, maybe I'll go into more detail on it in an article or video. But for now, this is what I've learned from my research. The easiest way would be to give your main characters a deterministic story arc. Write about a group of characters dealing with forces beyond their control. This works quite well if you're interested in the horror genre. In fact, many horror stories follow Kishotenketsu to a "T". One way I described in the video would be to give secondary characters a Kishotenketsu arc. This works because they are essentially at the mercy of the protagonists. Another more interesting way might be to give each of your main characters separate arcs based on different plotting styles. Give some a typical western, Romantic story arc and others a more deterministic, Kishotenketsu arc within the same story. Have some arcs with conflict and others without, where the characters just deal with forces beyond their control. After all, every character doesn't need to ride off into the sunset, do they? Sometimes it's all we can do to deal with what we're given. I have an upcoming project I"m going to try that last one on. We'll see how it goes.
Do another on Jo-Ha-Kyu, if you like. Also quite fuzzy and curious about your take on it. Much appreciate your rich nourishment for my mind! Enjoyed it a lot!
I think episode 1 of promised neverland is just a standard Act 1 structure. Mostly Establishing the setting and characters. The discovery of the orphanage’s secret is the inciting incident for the series. And when they decide to escape, that’s the end of act 1. The three heroes are extremely active throughout the rest of the show.
I think a perfect example of Kishotenketsu in a full arc story is Chainsawman part 1. I don’t want to give spoilers but the protagonist doesn’t move the story and the theme in part is about him not knowing what he wants and letting other people decide things in his place. In the third act there is a massive plot twist and the character that is moving the plot foward is revealed as well as the caracter’s motivations. There are a lot of moments that the focus is the protagonist feelings e reactions to what haha happened and even the ending of the arc it gets a conclusion of the conflict with caracter growth of the protagonist but I think it’s quite open. Open enough to allow a continuation of the story in part 2. Like, there was a conclusion but it didn’t feel like a conclusion as the caracter realized that he needed to change (by thinking and making decisions by himself) but we didn’t see him changing. And part 2 now I think it’s even more focused on the caracter’s feelings.
A manga/anime that left a mark on me with its use of Kishotenketsu is Jojo part 5/season 4. It basically divide its story into two half each built upon the structure. Interestingly in the first half it's the heroes that suffers the event of the 'ten' while in the second half it's the antagonist. Also it demonstrates very well that a Kishotenketsu can be used to tell a story of self actualisation very effectively instead of a story of "hammered nail".
@@calamuspress1487 The first 2 seasons are not as good in my opinion, but season 3 and 4 are definitely worth it even if season 2 is interesting since it introduce the main power system of the series. Since each season is an independant story you can watch them in any order more or less
it seems to me like breaking bad's pilot contains (and overlaps) a kishotenketsu within its three act structure from the beginning up until walter hires jesse
That's possible. I must admit that I haven't seen Breaking Bad yet. (Sacrilege, I know.) But it's very possible that they were inspired by certain aspects of Kishotenketsu. Or maybe they just hit on it naturally. There are also works of classic fiction that seem to follow this formula, to varying degrees. "The Island of Dr. Moreau," comes to mind.
It's not in every poster, whether Western or Eastern. But it's more common than you might think. And I don't think they really spoil anything. They drop clues to hint at the twist, such as the plates resembling clocks or the children being kept under a cloche. But they are the kinds of curious images that draw your attention, make you think and wonder what the twist could be. Then, after watching the show, you can look back on the poster with a new set of eyes and understand the symbolism. Thanks for the comment.
lol used the diagram I created based on a Japanese video, which I credited to the people who created it, but no credit to anyone? I mean, the wikipedia website also gives credit to the youtubers.
Wow, I didn't know anything about it, but I'm just so tired of Orientalist "critics" trying to force manga into "some form for European literature". To most critics, animes are "Greek epics", "Nietzschean tragedies" and so on... They pose as experts, but they never have a word to say about Chinese literature, about Buddhism, about this Kishotenketsu you've just told me about... I'm left to wonder if their long "analysis" have any worth to them.
It's true. Eastern cultures have confounded the West for as long as there has been a West to confound. Often we don't know what to do with their unique viewpoint.
Thank you for giving such a detailed explanation of “Kishotenketsu” with actual episode examples. Most videos only give a vague description.
Thanks for the sacrifice of your time. This is truly a great channel I appreciate your work.
Thanks again, Boss. I'll get back to creating content when my work schedule lightens up.
Thanks for the video. Combining multiple story structures into a single story was a lightbulb moment for me.
Thanks for the comment, PompadourSamurai. I think weaving multiple diverse plot threads through a story makes a much more interesting tapestry than overly relying on a standard, western three act structure.
This is a very interesting paradigm. Watched all 3 of your videos, and it was very helpful.
I feel like all story paradigms are essentially the same, the difference is on emphasis.
Watching the The Promised Neverland pilot, which is a very interesting concept (which I think is at the heart of why anime is so beloved, you'd never get a concept like this in western stories). The emphasis on the character's desire is very restrained, she's interested by the outside world but she doesn't really want to go out.
If the The Promised Neverland was a western story the biggest changes they'd make is this. They'd make Emma want to go outside really badly from act 1. And there would be emphasis on the character taking said action at act 1 and ultimately leading to a traditional 3 act structure.
But watching the anime, Emma likes being at the Orphanage. She's learning, she's has a family she loves, she gets to play, etc. She loves her home (which makes it all the more ironic when she finds out it's a farm). She wants to see what's outside the fence, but it's more out of curiosity rather than a desire for something more. Emma doesn't really have that desire to leave until the midpoint.
* * SPOILERS FOR ACROSS THE SPIDER-VERSE BELOW * *
I was watching Across The Spider-Verse, and it felt off in terms of the 3 act structure of Hollywood films. The first act has a small intro with Gwen that really sets up the theme of the story; which is identity, it's about being who you are and feeling like you belong to something that understands and accepts you.
I don't know about the rest of The Promised Neverland show, but based on that "Ken" segment of the story, it's probably freedom vs bondage; and what greater prison is there than one where you deluded into believing you're free and loved?
But back to Spider-Verse. The movie doesn't really end its act 1 break until a little over the 1 hour mark(if going by 3 act structure), and it doesn't really have an inciting incident or "Twist" until he finds out the Spider-Verse team is really all about making people who are meant to die actually die(happens around the 65% mark), they go against his values and now he has a goal which is save his dad, and then the cliffhanger ending.
Ki- Gwen and Miles are struggling with their identity.
Sho - Gwen and Miles being heroes in their ordinary word.
Ten- Miles gets inverted to the spider-verse group and finds out they are letting people die, and they want him to stop being Spider-Man and Gwen knew.
Ketsu- For Miles and Gwen its to change and realize the people they belong with are their family, and the people that love them. Ends unresolved. Particularly for Miles it's about resolving his flaw of dishonesty, which is formed by the fear of believing his parents won't accept who he really is.
Also the interesting thing that might make Across the Spider-verse a Kishotenketsu is that the side character, Gwen, is the character with the actual goal, while Miles is just along for the ride until the theme hits them in the face with the twist.
It seems to me that kishotenketsu prioritizes theme and character over the traditional western 3 act which prioritizes desire and objective. Both have all 4 elements but they both use different emphasis. You always hear in every 3 act paradigm, the main character has to have a desire and a goal. Which makes you ask "why?", there's nothing that says you HAVE to do that, it's nice see that this paradigm not only does by says you should.
For example, using the 3 act structure paradigm, Luke wants to be a Jedi and his objective is to deliver the plans to Alderaan. While Han Solo doesn't really have that so the theme and character take priority of the first film; ultimately in the Han Solo, kishotenketsu paradigm story of A New Hope, it's about what it means to be a hero or a good person; having it be a aloft mercenary is the perfect character for that. Han Solo has no desire other than to keep making money, until the story forces him to make a change.
Really interesting video. Learned a lot. Thank you. And if you read about to this point, thank you as well.
Across the Spider-verse is also a "Part One", which means it's actually just half a story, hence why it probably doesn't fit an obvious structure easily
@@trueoutlaw13 this is a bit of a delayed reply but the film does have structure.
There is an element of Miles sort of being the main character in Gwen's story. It doesn't have a major 2nd Act central conflict, kind of meanders through it.
Sure at the end of the day there are very western standards of story structure in it, but it felt more kishotenketsu like when compared to other massive blockbuster films especially in the superhero genre.
Here’s a tip for those planning to write a Kishotenketsu:
Western stories (ones with the three act structure) come from a plot idea
Eastern stories (like ones using Kishotenketsu come from a concept
Ok just some more clarification: by concept, I mean a what if question. What if a guy with a god complex gets the ability to kill anyone at will? (Death note) What if a spy, an assassin, and a telepath form a fake family where they have to hide their identities from each other? (Spy x family)
Great distinction.
@@Sarafimm2 thanks
that's why a lot of anime and manga seem to crash and bomb the longer they go on
@@doggerlander yeah, and also the horrible working conditions they have to put up with :(
I may or may not have binged Promised Neverland before continuing the video
Thank you for this video, illustrating this narrative principle with some concrete examples is actually very helpful and it's difficult to find such content :)
I would argue on the determinism term though. I think it's not inherently wrong and it's a way of putting it. I would suggest that Japan culture and society is more about conformism and a sense of harmony.
Determinism word relate a lot to the philosophical concept developped in europe in the XIX century and is a very "mechanistic" vision of the world.
The eastern approche of Ki Sho Ten Ketsu makes me think a lot more about the taoist philosophy of Wu Wei which is deeply spiritual, holistic and more about "going with the flow" and "effortless action" by emotionnaly accepting things you don't have control on.
We play TTRPGs like Dungeons & Dragons. Every game session is like an episode or partial episode of an anime. I can see how Kishotenketsu and Determinism can make for great adventures. The imaginary world that the Game Master creates to run the Player Characters through will continue whether the PCs/Adventurers deal with the village destroying monsters or not. If they do, then that threat is defeated and they might find out why those monsters were attacking the village. Several different reasons could lead to more semi-related adventures. If they don't, what will happen could eventually escalate to a much, much greater threat later.
I think it would make a great addition to your toolkit as a DM. Nintendo has started using Kishotenketsu to craft puzzles for their Mario games. I've never been a DM and only played a few rounds of D&D myself, but I have to imagine you could use a similar methodology to craft puzzles and quests.
Whilst I’ve loved this series as a whole and have found many interesting takeaways, I think there’s an issue with using episodes of an anime as prime examples. I feel like lots of western tv, especially the first episode of the series, uses this structure to make sure you tune in for the next episode. Something dramatic shifts right at the end with little to no explanation. It would be good to demonstrate Kishōtenketsu in either anime films, or maybe in an anime series as a whole.
Sorry to be critical, as I said before I loved the series and have learnt a lot, so thank you!
Just a add-on, Keiichi was trying to call a pizza but accidentally called the goddess centre, then Belldandy appears from the mirror.
Excellent series!
Thank you for taking the time ^^
Itd be nice to see a break down on a contuined story. Like 4 episodes of an anime carrying this all over
Thats great, man
Thanks, Jhesus.
hey, where did you learn all of this? i want to get more information about this unique structure but I'm in the west and no one really talks about it.
Hi Eternity. Sorry for not responding sooner. The internet is spotty where I am.
I started by researching the three act structure and branched out from there. Then I researched three act alternatives and dived down as many rabbit holes as I could. Most of my research has been through Google and UA-cam. If you want more on the Kishotenketsu method, try this article:
www.kimyoonmiauthor.com/post/641948278831874048/worldwide-story-structures
It should give you a good start.
I hope that helped.
@@calamuspress1487 thank you so much I'm also wondering how you would apply kishotenketsu to your scenes.
@@eternity4435 There are a few ways you could go. When I have time again, maybe I'll go into more detail on it in an article or video. But for now, this is what I've learned from my research.
The easiest way would be to give your main characters a deterministic story arc. Write about a group of characters dealing with forces beyond their control. This works quite well if you're interested in the horror genre. In fact, many horror stories follow Kishotenketsu to a "T".
One way I described in the video would be to give secondary characters a Kishotenketsu arc. This works because they are essentially at the mercy of the protagonists.
Another more interesting way might be to give each of your main characters separate arcs based on different plotting styles. Give some a typical western, Romantic story arc and others a more deterministic, Kishotenketsu arc within the same story. Have some arcs with conflict and others without, where the characters just deal with forces beyond their control. After all, every character doesn't need to ride off into the sunset, do they? Sometimes it's all we can do to deal with what we're given.
I have an upcoming project I"m going to try that last one on. We'll see how it goes.
Do another on Jo-Ha-Kyu, if you like. Also quite fuzzy and curious about your take on it. Much appreciate your rich nourishment for my mind! Enjoyed it a lot!
That one never came up in my research, but I Googled it and it seems interesting. I'll look into it.
Thanks.
I think episode 1 of promised neverland is just a standard Act 1 structure. Mostly Establishing the setting and characters. The discovery of the orphanage’s secret is the inciting incident for the series. And when they decide to escape, that’s the end of act 1. The three heroes are extremely active throughout the rest of the show.
I could easily just say that was a ten.
Kishotenketsu doesn't mean that the characters have to be passive.
CUBIC MEGA BUTTLOAD OF INFORMATION perfect😂😂😂
Glad I made you smile.
Sounds to me like kishotenketsu is character driven.
I think a perfect example of Kishotenketsu in a full arc story is Chainsawman part 1. I don’t want to give spoilers but the protagonist doesn’t move the story and the theme in part is about him not knowing what he wants and letting other people decide things in his place. In the third act there is a massive plot twist and the character that is moving the plot foward is revealed as well as the caracter’s motivations. There are a lot of moments that the focus is the protagonist feelings e reactions to what haha happened and even the ending of the arc it gets a conclusion of the conflict with caracter growth of the protagonist but I think it’s quite open. Open enough to allow a continuation of the story in part 2. Like, there was a conclusion but it didn’t feel like a conclusion as the caracter realized that he needed to change (by thinking and making decisions by himself) but we didn’t see him changing. And part 2 now I think it’s even more focused on the caracter’s feelings.
I haven't Chainsaw man, but from your description it sounds like a textbook example. I'll need to check it out.
Thank you for the comment.
A manga/anime that left a mark on me with its use of Kishotenketsu is Jojo part 5/season 4. It basically divide its story into two half each built upon the structure. Interestingly in the first half it's the heroes that suffers the event of the 'ten' while in the second half it's the antagonist. Also it demonstrates very well that a Kishotenketsu can be used to tell a story of self actualisation very effectively instead of a story of "hammered nail".
Sounds like an interesting twist on the form. Jojo has been on my list to watch for a while. I might need to dive into it.
@@calamuspress1487 The first 2 seasons are not as good in my opinion, but season 3 and 4 are definitely worth it even if season 2 is interesting since it introduce the main power system of the series. Since each season is an independant story you can watch them in any order more or less
@@sachacendra3187do not ever spread such heresy ever again boy. You know not of the powers you meddle in.
Ama a girl :3 and i do what I wanta òwó' @@ganimol9691
Thanks
it seems to me like breaking bad's pilot contains (and overlaps) a kishotenketsu within its three act structure from the beginning up until walter hires jesse
That's possible. I must admit that I haven't seen Breaking Bad yet. (Sacrilege, I know.) But it's very possible that they were inspired by certain aspects of Kishotenketsu. Or maybe they just hit on it naturally. There are also works of classic fiction that seem to follow this formula, to varying degrees. "The Island of Dr. Moreau," comes to mind.
Great video. I'm not sure if others would agree. But wouldn't the story of invincible be a kishotenketsu? 🤔
I'm not sure. It's been a while since I've seen Invincible. I might need to rewatch it and do an update.
@@calamuspress1487sounds good. I would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks for replying and great video.
In the Promised Neverland poster they give away the huge end of act 2 twist on the POSTER?!
Is that normal?
It's not in every poster, whether Western or Eastern. But it's more common than you might think.
And I don't think they really spoil anything. They drop clues to hint at the twist, such as the plates resembling clocks or the children being kept under a cloche. But they are the kinds of curious images that draw your attention, make you think and wonder what the twist could be. Then, after watching the show, you can look back on the poster with a new set of eyes and understand the symbolism.
Thanks for the comment.
Isn't this story structure similar to the type used in horror movies?
lol used the diagram I created based on a Japanese video, which I credited to the people who created it, but no credit to anyone? I mean, the wikipedia website also gives credit to the youtubers.
Wow, I didn't know anything about it, but I'm just so tired of Orientalist "critics" trying to force manga into "some form for European literature". To most critics, animes are "Greek epics", "Nietzschean tragedies" and so on... They pose as experts, but they never have a word to say about Chinese literature, about Buddhism, about this Kishotenketsu you've just told me about... I'm left to wonder if their long "analysis" have any worth to them.
It's true. Eastern cultures have confounded the West for as long as there has been a West to confound. Often we don't know what to do with their unique viewpoint.
Please equalize the volume between your intro and spoken portion of the video. It's too loud then to soft.
Ayn Rand is 100% correct