They FINALLY extended the G in Brooklyn after rebuilding the center 2 tracks. It used to stop at Smith - 9st, now it ends at Church Ave so they can run the F express to Church.
They have a GO coming up next week with weekend G trains terminating at Smith 9th and weekday G service turning at 18th Ave. If the V was brought back it should be weekdays only and go to 96st via 6th ave.
As someone that is originally from Queens I always wished the E,F went further east than just to Jamaica/Hillside respectively. Used to have to take the q46 from Kew Gardens to 259 and Union. But living jn the Bronx now I wish they would make a line from there going down directly to Queens.
@@jasonjtd79dunne88 I remember when the G train went to steinway. queens is right next to BK, so they shouldn't force us to go tru Manhattan to get there. the G train is the red headed step child of the MTA... I also agree to making it easier to get to bronx from queens, cuz that shit its ridiculous
The "F" not being expressed to church is due to local politics. The affluent neighborhood where Bergen is protested that they would be " downgraded" to a local stop. According to the MTA the Bergen express station is in too much disrepair that it would cost too much to fix.
I work for MTA and the express station is really bad! With all the money they waste on projects that take waaaay to long to finish it could be fixed. They waste money and cry broke!
@@ejm1225 Maybe, but the repairs of Chambers street and Bergen, are more useful to the average New Yorker than a white elephant like east side access. Repairing Chambers alone could result in additional service.
A few outlandish suggestions: 1. The K runs from Bedford to Canarsie. There are switch tracks at West 4th, Chrystie, and Broadway Jucntion that could make this possible. Bedford-145 on the D Line. 145-West 4 on the C line West 4th-Bway-Lafayette on the F line via switch track to 6th. Bway-Lafayette-Delancey-Essex on the M line via Chrystie St exch. Delancey-Essex-Bway Jcn on the J line. Bway-Jcn-Rockaway Pkwy-Canarsie on the L Line via switch track at Bway-Jcn. 2. The 9: have it run local while the 1 does peak express service (or vice versa due to this next suggestion). But extend the 9 to Brooklyn and switch it to the 4/5 line to run express Utica Ave with the 4. The switch could take place somewhere between Borough Hall Sta. and Atlantic Ave. 3. The Brown M: The J and M took over the N and R lines when they were incapacitated by the damage of its Cortlandt St Station just after the 2001 attack. Why not have the J shadow the R and the M shadow the N? Outlandish Ideas that would cost billions: 4. Build the Utica Ave extension, and let the V train service it, terminating at 2nd Ave Station. 5. The H: Restore the track between on the Far Rockaway Branch and connect it to the Qns. Blvd line at 63rd Drive and have it terminating at Woodhaven Blvd. Build a track loop past Woodhaven Blvd under the QB ROW so it could turn around and return to Far Rockaway.
A couple things about the H train, during summers on the weekend it is extended to rockaway blvd they are thinking of reactivating the abandoned rockaway beach branch and putting service through lower montauk (queens superexpress) or the queens blvd line. While this probably won't happen, it's cool that the MTA is thinking about it and not only us transit nerds lol
Illogical because the a train is slow in queens and the s train gets entirely replaced by the h train,but the k train replace the sir,so the h train goes to rock park and does the same thing as the a train but won’t run in Manhattan and south of broadway junction during late nights,but the c train can take lefferts blvd and run 24/7,basically the a and c train swapping roles,but the service pattern is intact,while the h train during late nights has two branch lines one via the lirr thing you mentioned,note the blue s train goes from rock park over the existing a line,then via the abandoned lirr thing during daylight hours only.
We are not transit nerds. We are railroad buffs and transit fans for one common cause. That is to share our knowledge about rail transit planning. It is a thing that the general riding public does not take notice of.
I really loved the brown M on the west end line! My dad used to ride the M from bay parkway to his work since 2009, I don't even remember if I rode on the M since 2009 because I was only 2 years old that time, I also live near the D and N trains and will always remember the M with the D train!
I remember one morning I went home after visiting a friend and I was at Bay Parkway… I was like where’s the M? A lady told me… Oh!! As of yesterday the M doesn’t come down here anymore. I was like ugh!! Guess I will have to stand on the D 😡
I used to live by the Fort Hamilton Parkway stop on the West End line, & rode the M while it was there. It did make my commute easier back then, & gave me an option between the THEN B & the M.
The K (formerly AA) existed because at one point, the C (from Broad Channel to the Bronx) was a rush hour only route alongside the rush hour B between Columbus Circle and 145th Street. When they finally came to their senses and made the C an everyday route from 168th to Euclid & rerouted the B to 145th St/the Bronx, there was no need for the K anymore. The brown M ran as a shuttle from Middle Village to Myrtle Av on weekends Hope that helps.
The Yellow B & D were basically continuations of the Orange B & D (from the Bronx/168th St) to Brooklyn due to that Manhattan Bridge project connecting at Herald Sq...& it made sense for both to end at 57th/7th (Yellow Diamond B at Astoria) rather than at Herald Square, which would've clogged all 4 routes running those Broadway express tracks. That's a whole different case. They were not permanent routes like the 9, H, K, brown M, V & JFK.
The Airport line was strictly for business riders as you paid an extra fare ON BOARD the train. The riders were for people who wanted to get to downtown BK, Wall Street and Midtown without many stops. The M train is one of the original elevated lines. I ran from Mid. village down Myrtle to downtown BK. The Brown M to brooklyn can happen any time they want. The connection from the Willie B bridge to 6th Avenue would remain. It's been there and unused for many years. A local train starting at Columbus Circle or 6th Ave/57th street over the F line to Kings Highway would be great. The local (terminal KH) & G train (terminal Church St.) could could handle service to Kings Highway. The express from Jay St - (perhaps Bergen lower level) - 7th Ave- Church- Kings Highway.
The M Train rolled between Metropolitan Avenue and Myrtle Avenue, and then continued on the Broadway trestle. The MJ, which line was in sky blue ran with its old Q-type wooden cars from Metropolitan Avenue to Bridge Street. The old Myrtle Avenue Trestle from Broadway to Bridge Street could support only the Q-Type cars. They were lighter than the steel railcars.
Gonna be a long reply, bear with me lol. Great video BTW -Skip-stop is more for passenger distribution, rather than a traditional "express". The 9 was useless simply because there was so few stops actually skipped, and all of those stations have pretty heavy ridership. All of them former 9 trains simply became extra 1 trains. It works on the J/Z because there's more stops skipped. -The frequency for the A branches doubles after Rockaway Blvd. A 7 minute wait at a station like Jay St is a 14 minute wait at like 111 St or Broad Channel. -The JFK Express is dead forever lol. That train was mostly used by Howard Beach residents to avoid the riff-raff, and paid the extra fare. -The K was just fodder. It would be super useless now. -The M/V combo was probably the best thing they've ever done. The V was empty more often than not, and was nothing more than extra 53 St service. 2 Av was a convenient terminal for it. The old M was used in Brooklyn just because it was there. Most of the time you would be the only person in the car from Bay Pkwy all the way to Atlantic
NYC shouldnt bring back any line except maybe 3rd av. They should call the queens blvd M the B and the coney island B the M. Then extent the M off the J line to the east of all those queens blvd/broadway trains. They need to make a new H that goes the length of Woodhaven to Queens Blvd. That street is already big and crowded. Extend the G and the N to LGA. Extend the 3 into JFKs terminals. Take the L north on 10th av in manhattan. Of course do Utica av from the water to the A on fulton. And please somehow ppl ....drop the Franklin av shuttle underground BEFORE it hits Atlantic and and countinue on to the G. Then start 4 tracking everything and NY will be the best once again! 🗽
@@mrgooglethegreat , and you morons should shut the fuck up and expand on the subway system, as well as modernize it as well. Moreover, you should also get rid of the vast majority of the streets in New York City and just make one group of vertically oriented subways and another group of horizontally oriented subways that are deeper underground than the vertically oriented subways, thus getting rid of vehicle congestion, on street parking, and parking lots in the New York City Metropolitan Area.
“It works on the J/Z” *it doesn’t.* Why do you think there are so many proposals to remove the Z. It’s functionally useless and hinders users, it saves like 1 minute of time while servicing *less* passengers, If the J was just a normal 2 track line like the L without any skip-stop, and the Z trains were transferred to the J, it would be so much more functional.
Regarding the 1 and 9 skip stop. It was a disaster from the beginning. I was a Conductor at the time that service was in place. Most of the time they both made all stops. It was confusing to most of the riders because it or at least was a heavy Spanish speaking line at the time. And when it did run. Riders were confused. They'd just pull the emergency brake at the stops it skipped and climb out from in between cards. Slowing service down. It was a happy day when it was finally discontinued.
The lirr to the AirTrain is now considered the “JFK” express. The JFK express ceased operations before the AirTrain even existed so getting from Jamaica to JFK took much longer since you had to take a bus. You also had to take a bus from the JFK express train to the Airport as well but a much smaller route.
I was born and raised in Manhattan on 125th and Amsterdam Ave, so I used either the 1 train (on 125th & Broadway) or the A and D trains (on 125th & 8th Ave). The A, D express from 125th St. to 59th St. (Columbus Circle) was great. When I went to High School in Brooklyn, that one express jump saved me a lot of time over three years. 🎉 I should also mention that the 9 train wasn't around all that long. I remember when it was introduced, thinking that it didn't make sense because there's "effectively" only one track for both the 1 and 9 trains (because of track switch and station arrangements). So the 9 train didn't last very long. Nice video by the way. 🤗 I was very well explained. Bravo.
Back in the mid 1970's the E train ran on the C line From 179 St. . to Euclid Ave.. I believe the C train was shuttle train that ran somewhere in Queens on the Far Rockaway A line..
The C which was the CC at the time ran from Bedford Park Blvd to Rockaway Park in the rush hour. After that the rush I don't remember what it did. Fun fact. It was the only line that touched The Bronx, Manhattan, Brooklyn and Queens.
They need to bring some of these lines back and build new railroads for them. Where I live is a train desert. We have no trains in our area and we have to take a bus to any train. They should restore some of these old train lines and build routes for them in areas where there are no commercial. Near where I live there is a freight train railroad on Utica Ave that is almost never used. They should use these abandoned freight railroads for some of the defunct train lines.
New to the channel! Born and raised in NYC (although I currently call the west coast home). For those that might be too young to remember, the JFK Express or the "Train to the Plane" as it was called back in the day was actually marketed by MTA as a premium service. You paid your fare at the turnstile and then boarded those trains (usually with all your luggage in tow) and paid an additional fare which was dropped into a collection box similar to what they used on the buses back in the day. Only certain doors on certain cars would open (usually the last of the four cars which also housed a conductor who would collect additional fares). As I recall, most riders on this line were folks from out-of-town who thought it was a quick and convenient way to get from midtown to the airport or vice versa. Locals from my neighborhood (in Brooklyn) either used gypsy cabs or took the bus to JFK. It was also nice to learn about lines MTA put into service after I left NYC for graduate school on the west coast. Namely, the H, K, and V lines. I had no idea that they discontinued the M. Thanks so much for sharing. Looking forward to whatever else is yet to come on this channel...
There were two "8" trains in the NYC Subway System. The first one was on the Astoria Line which terminated at Ditmars Blvd. The 8 was an extension of the Queensboro Line which is now part of the 7 line. The 8 ran along the Queensboro line. And it terminated on the other side of the Steinway tunnel at Grand Central Terminal. Service between Astoria and Manhattan ran between 1917 - 1949. The second 8 train ran exclusively in the Bronx along the 3rd Avenue line. This 8 was a relatively short line. It ran between the 3rd Avenue Station, ran all along 3rd Avenue and terminated at the Chrystie Street Connection. Sadly, this 8 train was short lived. It ran for only six years between 1967 - 1973, when it was replaced by the Bx55 Bus line and then later by the Bx15.
As someone who isn’t native to nyc and moved here only a few years ago, this is some fascinating stuff! I used to live at the Seneca Ave M stop and I didn’t know that the M used to go with the J and Z lines and then continue into Brooklyn with the D line! This makes so much more sense than its current wonky route
I was in favor of having the brown M train going to Bay Parkway everyday. The could've had the brown M go express to Bay Parkway and would've eased rush hour madness on the D train.
The #8 train used to be the 3rd Avenue train before they tore down that line. The number is reserved, so it wasn't used. If they could install platform doors at the skipped station, then the trains would not have to slow down.
After they tore down the Manhattan portion of it, the Bronx part ran for a few more years and while on the maps it was listed as the 8 train, if you actually took the train, it didn't have 8 on it but had the S for shuttle instead.
Thanks for clarifying this. You solved a mystery I had wondered about from time to time over the last 25 years. Before I lived in NYC, I visited my dad one summer. I saw a K train sign at canal street. It was 1995. I couldn’t find it on any map. We asked a few MTA employees and a police officer about it, but no one had ever heard of the K train.
Remember that skip-stop service is not designed to save time. It never was. It’s meant to save space on trains and relieve crowding on trains during the busiest periods of the day. As someone who used the 1/9 and the J/Z at different points in my life, there was nothing really wrong with it. You just had to keep that in mind. Yes it was annoying to wait in the station (with the doors closed) because there was another train in front of it. But this happens on many days during the rush hour anyway. Side note: Same is true for limited-stop bus routes. Super annoying when you get on a limited bus route, and the local bus passes you and you’re like, wtf?? But once again, it’s not designed to save time or be speedy, etc. it’s supposed to save space on buses. Thanks for your vids 🤘🏿🙏🏿💯
The H is the Rockaway Park shuttle on the pick sheets. Years ago it was a round Robin from RKP to Mott then Mott to Euclid and back to RKP midnights only. The A went to Lefferts 24 hours then the A just went to Mott 24 hours and the OPTO lefferts shuttle came to light.
And here's me still wondering why they didn't swap B and D back after the Manhattan Bridge repair was done - good to see you reference Vanshnookenragen map though, it's always with me on my laptop \m/
The Q is a full time train to Second Avenue. So with the Q running full time on Brighton Beach, they did not need two full time lines on the Brighton Line. The D was switched over to West End mine, giving 24 hour access to Manhattan as well. It sucked back in the day when people had to get off the B shuttle at that line.
It was a good idea in theory during rush hour but as you pointed out it didn’t work as much. All they did was switch 9 trains to 1 and have them make all stops all the time.
Back in the 35 cent day, the Broadway Local used to run a 'Thru Express' during rush hour that selectively skipped certain UWS stations before hitting the Bronx.
103, 116th Street, 125th Street, and 137th Street are very popular stations. Even skip stop service never skipped. Plus there’s no place actual platforms for a 1 express to stop. There are huge operational issues you just mentioned.
Great Video, I think the H could exist again if they could run a combined rapid transit service via a reactivation of the abandoned portion of the Rockaway Beach Branch, then as you said connecting to the LIRR main line and terminating at its own platform at Penn (which could work with the planned expansions to Penn discussed. The train to the plane failed for being a premium service. If it wasn't a premium service and simply operated as a super express, that probably would be a heavily used service. Run it from 59th Street Columbus, making all stops in Manhattan and Jay, then making no other stops other than maybe Broadway Junction for the transfer until Howard Beach and replacing the shuttle to Rockaway during rush hours. That would be one heck of a service. I read that quite a few people in Howard Beach paid the premium fare for the faster trip when it did exist, for the faster trip. I think it could be a great service, but only if it's not premium fare. That's what ultimely killed it. And the weekend brown M was just a short shuttle from Metropolitan Avenue to Myrtle Ave where riders needed to xfer to the J to go further.
About that Queens Crosstown Line, the demand is there. The Rockaway Beach Branch is currently proposed to be revitalized, plus two heavily used Select Bus Service corridors run a few blocks away from the proposed RBB reintegration. Edit: The K ran because the C was rush hours only.
@Antonio Cartel I say revive the G extension to the former Rockaway Beach Branch, and have it run down to either Howard Beach, Broad Channel, or Far Rockaway-Mott Avenue. While they're doing that, they should revived Woodhaven Junction station as an LIRR transfer station, and convert the bridge beneath the LIRR Main Line in Rego Park into another LIRR transfer station.
@@DTD110865 They should also considering converting Woodhaven Blvd - Slattery Plaza into an express station. You have the provisions to make it an express train, plus Woodhaven Blvd has a lot of ridership. Not to mention, but making Woodhaven Blvd an express station, will help lower the crowds at Roosevelt Av
Some weekends the Brown-Line went to prospect park. Most recently the J did that. It was liked cuz it didn't segregate Brooklyn. You just take the Brighton Line, walk off platform hop and the J in same platform. Easier trip on Jamaica line.
I remember the 9 train being in service. I was born in 2001 so I have very faint memories of riding it before it was defunct in 2005. And ofc I grew up with the original Brown M and the V train, I wish those were still around
I lived at 18th Ave on the D in Brooklyn. I loved the brown M because it was easy access to manhattan when I went to elementary in the city. After they removed it, the D was always packed from 18th and always got delayed at Dekalb
To the Railfans and Formers wanting these services back. Listen it’s never going to happen the MTA had valid reasons to remove those services in the first place 9 train: It was a failed subway line. Heck the 9 train was a failure from DAY 1, The skip stop services was hated by many 1 train riders even when it was first proposed in 1988 it got a lot of backlash from Inwood and Washington Heights riders. It’s started in 1989 at first the 9 train was all weekdays, than in 1994 the 9 train got strictly reduced to rush hours only due to unpopularity. Than in 2005 the 9 train was eliminated entirely due to customers wanting more frequent service and the 1 train now makes all stops. K train: It was essentially a half assed copy and paste of the C train it has literally no unique route that justify keeping the K train route the K train was nothing but a waste of space and if it wasn’t eliminated it 1988 it would’ve most likely been eliminated anyway in 2010 with the budget cuts it was completely unnecessary and not needed V train: Arguably the most realible train route out of all of them still suffered from low ridership nevertheless and It was basically F trains running local in queens and on a shorter route to Manhattan. I felt that it needed more of a purpose, the 2010 gave it that purpose when the V train was annexed to the M train. And when coming to the bottom line with how much people like the new M train route the V train has NO MORE purpose on the 6th Avenue line Brown M train: to be perfectly honest the Brown M train was very useless I mean it was basically J train running via Myrtle ave line. It was often empty, it carried more air than PASSENGERS, Back then The majority of riders often transfer to delanacy st Essex st for F train service to get to midtown. It reroute to the 6th Avenue line while cause of budget cuts turn out to be the BEST THING thats happened to the M train. M train was rerouted from downtown to 6th Ave which has proven very popular and an alternative to the crowded L train The Jamaica/Myrtle Avenue line got a one seat ride to midtown via the M train. It not perfect but it took some pressure off the L train, and a serious alternative to the overcrowded L trains were needed Well the only major downside of the M rerouting is that M train riders did lose one seat ride to lower Manhattan and during rush hours southern Brooklyn, and even that isn’t really a loss especially when you consider the fact that Williamburg is demanding more midtown service lower Manhattan has a lower ridership Heck at Broadway Junction a handful of J/Z riders transfer to the A/C and/or L trains to get to midtown and before y’all bring up (the “brown M train help the D and R trains during in southern Brooklyn during Rush Hours arguments”) That not a valid excuse. In fact the Brown M train via west end/4th Avenue is the LITERALLY definition of "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink." basically no one went to southern Brooklyn via Nassau Street or took the Brown M train to Nassau Street The demand is to midtown via the 6th Avenue or Broadway lines. EVEN DURING rush hours the trains were nearly empty and if they really want to get to lower Manhattan they can just transfer to the J/Z train. The J/Z aren’t even that crowded so it doesn’t justify bring back the Brown M train. You would be pissing off a lot of Williamsburg and Bushwick riders that want to get to midtown. Yes, there is a demand for lower Manhattan from Williamsburg but there’s still the J/Z trains And the G train via Queens Blvd: Perhaps we overestimated the realible of the G train on queens blvd. It’s was kinda a waste to have the G train run on queens blvd when the demand to midtown Manhattan was much higher. I think the G‘s one-seat ride between Brooklyn and Queens was a bit overstated. It was not a hugely popular service when it did run there. And given that the QB Line is the second busiest in the system, with an overwhelming rider preference for Midtown Manhattan service, bringing back the G to Queens Blvd would benefit a relatively small number of riders. It would probably be even less popular if it were brought back than it was in 2001 when weekday G service was cut back to Court Square to make room for the V. If anything I would said extend the G train to the Bronx creating a sort of a Triboro Subway line. The JFK express train: A failed subway a waste of money, a waste of time, a waste of space, and a waste of resources. Plan and simply worst subway line to ever exist
@@activecity4051 Yes remember even with the Worth Street Line you won’t have enough space for the K train to be revived. This also leaves space for a new Utica Avenue to be built
proposal for 2nd Avenue line that expands capacity In Harlem a new 125th Street Crosstown Amsterdam Avenue running up to 168th street Subway line would be build with transfer to the 1/2/3/4/5/6/A/C/B/D. The T train would be sent there this gives People on West Harlem easier access to the East Side of Manhattan taking pressure off the 7/L trains. As for the Bronx the most popular proposal is to rebuild the 3rd Avenue line so I split it up into multiple phases in order to better manage the costs phase 1 would be to build a new tunnel in the Harlem river and extending the Q train to 3rd Avenue 149th street. Phase 2 would be to extend the Q to Fordham Plaza. And phase 3 would be to extend the Q to Gun Hill Road. A optional phase 4 to Co Op City should be studied too. This would balance out west and east side TPH. And maybe even reduce crowding on the 2 train since now people would have a another option of getting to the West side of Manhattan. The 3rd Avenue line would have three tracks to allow for a peak way express and creation of a new Express Train. The express stops would be Co Op city, Gun Hill Road, Fordham Plaza, Tremont Avenue, 3rd Avenue 149th street, and 3rd Avenue 138th street. Now usually it’s the T via Bronx and Q via Harlem y’all used to but the reasoning for it is that currently they is 50 trains during rush hours heading to east midtown the 4/5/6 trains vs 25/30 trains heading to west midtown the 2/D. The 1 is further west away from the rest of the Bronx line and only three stations so technically we could exclude it in this scenario. The B is a rush hour only extension and runs on the same route as the D so it doesn’t really count as it’s own Individual line. Add the Q train would balance the ridership access out. And Broadway is a much more attractive line to be extended to the Bronx since it stops at a bunch of major transfer points in midtown ETC (Times Square Herald Square Union Square). And sending the T to 125th street crosstown Amsterdam avenue would give the people on Harlem easier access to the east side of Manhattan reducing crowding on the 7/L trains. And people are saying that the Q train might be too long while I agree with this at first. Realistic that argument is moot cause I believe we overestimated the length cause let’s be honest the Q train won’t be anywhere near as long as the A or F trains. It would be around the same length as the B train. In fact my proposed K train route would be longer than the Q train My estimate on the Q train length. Longer than the N train, Shorter than the D train. On queens a new 4 track Northern Blvd subway line would be build two new new 2nd Avenue lines will be created these are both currently defunct services the K and V trains. The K train would start off at Springfield blvd then it will meet up with the V train at Utopia Parkway the V train would run local while the K train would run express. The local only stations are 164th Street Kissena Blvd Main Street Elder Avenue College Point Blvd 108th Street 100th Street 85th Street 78th Street Local and Express stops Utopia Parkway Willets Points Blvd (transfers to flushing line) Junction Blvd Broadway Northern Blvd (transfers to queens blvd line) Both trains are based out of Sunnyside Yard The K train would branch off Broadway stoping at 31st Street (transfer to Astoria line) 21st Street Then a lower level at 72nd Street 2nd Avenue would be made then the K train rises up at 42nd street as the express service. The V train would branch using the existing 63rd street tunnel than connects to 55th Street running local with the T train. The reasoning why I propose Northern Blvd/2nd Ave express trains using the 63rd St tunnel. Is that It would allow would allow riders coming from 6th Ave, Queens blvd, Hillside the chance to easily transfer to the 2nd Ave Subway. 2nd Avenue would be expanded to 4 tracks the K train would extend to a new Williamburg Utica Avenue line first it would stop at Clinton Street and Bedford Avenue The proposed Utica Avenue line would include 8th Avenue and 2nd Avenue services The E train would also be extended to Williamsburg using the Worth Street provisions with the stations at Worth Street Chambers Street, Chatham Square, East Broadway and finally Montgomery Street. The Benefits are that it opens up new transfer options for riders in lower Manhattan. World Trade Center terminal will continue to get service but during rush hours only. The World Trade Center would be used to terminate extra C/E train during rush hours if their isn’t capacity on the Brooklyn routes when CBTC is Installed on the 8th Avenue, Fulton street, and the proposed Williamsburg lines. So a total of 8-10 rush hour trains would terminate there 4-5 rush hour C/E trains each would be sent there. But that might limit capacity on the Fulton street and the proposed Williamsburg lines. At all other times WTC is closed so you have to take the E to canal street for an A or C train I mean the Chambers street and World Trade Center are literally the same station complex so shutting it down shouldn’t be too much of a problem, however it does have a ridership count so some people might not like the sound of being forced to transfer at Canal Street for a A/C train. The World Trade Center would still be used for emergencies or G.O work. The E train will also make one stop at Bedford Avenue before meeting up with the K train at Havemeyer street This route would run south 3rd street and Utica Avenue it would be a 4 track line the E train is the local and the K train is the express. Local exclusive stops Flushing Avenue Lafayette Avenue Halsey Street Prospect Place Empire Blvd Church Avenue Avenue D Flatlands Avenue Avenue N All local and express stops Havemeyer Street Broadway South 4th street Myrtle Avenue Utica Avenue Fulton Street Crown Heights Utica Avenue Kings Highway Kings Plaza Utica Avenue This proposed south 3rd street and Utica Avenue line would help balance the load of new commuters from Williamsburg, Bushwick and Bed-Stuy which currently use the L or M to get to Midtown or take the J to get to Lower Manhattan. The J train and the BMT Centre St Subway in general suffer from being built when everyone from northern Brooklyn were headed to lower Manhattan and the Financial District. Today commuting patterns have changed that now both lower Manhattan and midtown are popular designations but the high cost of new infrastructure has hampered the ability to make needed service changes. The new Williamburg line that would be served by the E and K trains would give communters more alternatives for folks in Williamburg other than having to use the congested J/Z M and L trains. And it’s would be very attractive as it offers both west side and east side access to Manhattan. Phase 4 would be build too Hanover Square would be expanded to 4 tracks the inner tracks used for terminating trains the outer tracks used for Brooklyn service. the V train would only run up to Hanover Square. T trains would be extend to Fulton street local using the Court Street transit museum link. T/V meets up with the A/C at Hoyt Street the C train would be moved to the Express tracks with the A train on Broadway junction the T train would continue to Euclid Avenue. The C train would be extended to Lefferts Blvd. All A trains can than be diverted to Far Rockway and Rockway Park. During late nights V train won’t operate at all the K train operates local in its place. Lefferts shuttle still operates during late nights. The T train ends a at Hoyt street with the A train becoming local
Your whiteness is showing. And before people get on my case, yes when the service was first started, those Brooklyn neighborhoods were mostly black until the 2000's and back then I hear people say they rode that line to avoid riding along side "colored" folks.
Now a lot of these lines were rightfully removed. I do believe MTA should run heritage trains one a year like they do with the Christmas trains. However I think something that is needed is the extension of the Franklin ave shuttle!
They're actually be REPLACING it, they tore it down and replaced it with buses. Where the M turns onto the J/Z line above Broadway in Brooklyn is another example, it used to run to what's now the Jay St - MetroTech station.
Yes, but that is likely because people pulled stickers off of the signs. The MTA puts stickers on the signs to hide the Brown M, and people peel it off. I've seen Brown M signs at Borough Hall and V train signs at 14 St.
The the train used to be rush hour's operating only. It was never suspended. The (K) train was just a rename of the (AA) train. You have to know the history of these lines. I go way back with these lines following these train lines since I was 7 years old.
9 train can work during rush hours. The orange m gets split into 2 lines the v can go to Chruch Avenue with the g, while the the brown m can get sent to fresh meadows direct service.
J trains can still terminate at Broad St while brown M continues to Brooklyn, since there are extra switchback tracks for J trains to switch back, without cutting M's main track. As an example, some 1 trains terminate at 137 St.
The "K" was simply the AA after they drop the double letters. Also when the AA ran, the B and CC did not run. The AA was the part time, while the B and CC was rush hours only. So often riders of these lines along central part west often seen the AA than the B and CC, because the AA also ran on weekends. It was a cost cutting move for this period. Unfortunately, "A" service was force to cover local service outside rush hours in Brooklyn. Another point of history was there was another "B" and "K" service. The "B" ran from both 168th Street and 57th Street. The "B" from 168 was the 6th Avenue Express while the 57 "B" was the local. The 57 ran full time as the only train besides the JFK. I forgot what served 57 unless it was closed midnights. As for the K service that ran like the M train today. But it ran only to 57th Street. I personally like the idea of the "K" service as it ran with the J. It was the express from Broadway East NY to Essex Street.
Back then the double letter lines were local only at least in Manhattan. That got changed the same year I started college so going to school and expecting to ride the A local instead I was on the C line.
They could bring back the Same K Route and have it follow the J to Jamaica Center it would use 8 cars, so it could run with the J, the J needs this because during Rush Hours the frequency is mediocre
@@briancatchflightss yes! It could replace the Z skip stop. The "J" becomes the rush hour Express between East New York/Broadway Junction to Essex Street. The "K" becomes the local. Extended idea The center track could be restored, but no Woodhaven Station is not built. The center track is built and Woodhaven Station is built to accommodate Express. Additional Cypress Hills station is built. Local trains allow Express trains to go first to skip stations via Fulton Street into Broadway Junction. Provide for a single track South of Jamaica Avenue with no stops to Broadway. I like the last idea the best, but this has already been proposed years earlier. The community wanted stations. Stations are a major expense of a project so the Authorities killed the plan. Also running two must stop services is expensive from an operation viewpoint. So the concessions is to demolished the Fulton Street session. But this is the session that most people live. The advantage is the S curve is gone though. The curve into Jamaica Avenue will be mild in comparison. Another interesting thing about the Jamaica Broadway Elevated is that it connects to the Air Train. It can also improve the number of people using the "E" in lower Manhattan. The Jam BWY would be significantly faster. The more it is built out, the faster it become, making it more attractive to more riders. If it were built out, I proposed a fly junction between the M and J lines at Myrtle Avenue. Something similar has been done in Chicago. This would provide for more service via the "J" line. It could be promoted as an Airport connector. The "J" could be extended with the "R" during the rush hours
@@briancatchflightss I have another idea of just running the "K" to Broadway Junction as an Express from the yard. It would be extended with the "R" rush hours to 95th Street. Or it could be an all day service. This includes Weekends? Does Broadway and 4th Avenue really need this service? Probably not! This service is more geared to the "R" as an additional 4th Avenue service. Currently, the "N" does double duty on the Weekends. It is the Broadway 4th Avenue local, but operates via the bridge with the "Q". That's because the stations serving the "R" between DeKalb and City Hall is lightly used. But I still feel there should be a second option for 4th Avenue local. And I think it is unfair for "R" to be the only local.
The brown M train was very convenient and helped solve overcrowding on the D and R trains. I rode it every weekday for many years. The problem was the sporadic and limited service, which led to low or inaccurate ridership numbers, and that the MTA would hold it at 36th Street in order to let arriving D trains pass in front of it. That was a disincentive for riders who wanted to take the train that was leaving first. I always thought that it would be better if, rather than waiting in the station, that the D or M would run express on the middle track to Bay Parkway, alleviating the overcrowding on the rush hour trains. Now when I need to connect to the F or G trains, go to DeKalb Avenue or Broad Street, I have to switch trains. I think the MTA should seriously consider bringing back a new and improved brown M line.
@@michaelcatalano6208 The problem with the Brown M Train was that Bay Parkway was a terrible terminal because it was hard to relay trains West of the station instead of East…
@@michaelcatalano6208 How crowded was the Brown M Train down over at South Brooklyn during the Rush Hour is the million Dollar Question and does it justify bringing it back. The R is always terrible in Brooklyn and Ridership started booming down over at 4th Avenue after the MTA got rid of the Brown M line. I think the Brown M Train was too ahead of its time. IMO. Always loved taking that route especially when the SMEEs were on…
The issue with the 1/9 skip-stop was because that part of the line north of 137th Street had growing ridership and it didn't justify skip-stop anymore. Riders at skip-stop stations were experiencing longer wait times, and fewer riders were benefiting from the service pattern overall. It works for the J/Z because there are far more stops skipped and there's 5-6 minutes saved. My idea would be to have a.m. rush hour trains with a zone express service. trains would operate from 242 to 137, then express to 96th Street, then local. (1) trains would enter service at Dyckman Street, then local all the way down to South Ferry.
Not only that, Washington Heights and Inwood residents weren't happy with the service plan in 1988, long before the MTA finalized the skip stop service. As for the J/Z, it's skip stop is iffy at times. You have a Z running local like its a J.
@@historyisthebestmyfans2094 I have definitely heard stories of trains en route being turned into locals because of crew shortages. Happened to me once.
@@imdanumber1 Even long before pandemic, the Z ran local sometimes. I think once the service levels on Nassau get hectic, that's when Skip Stop service starts.
1. Turn the 9 into the 1 express (bypassing 103rd, 110th, 116th, 125th, then turns into the local by City College OR Ditto, but more earlier than the 1). 2. The H extension (becomes similar to the A service, alongside using the rockaway as the starting point and goes ALL the way towards 169th within the A service) 3. JFK Express refresher. (Makes the JFK stop at all of the express stops on its way to the airport). 4. K 168-WTC (self explanatory). 5. V extension to Church then F turns into express only past Church (self explanatory).
If I remember, the skip-stop started at 137 St. I think the Train to the Plane really catered to folks in Manhattan. They’d be the ones to provide the premium price the transit system was asking for.
Not from NYC, or the east coast for that matter, but I really enjoyed this video. I've always had an interest in the NYC Subway and it's quirks. Thank you for educating me on discontinued train lines of NYC!
The Third Avenue was physically connected to the #2 & #5 lines at the Gun Hill Road station in the northern Bronx until 1973, and had two other connections in the South Bronx when the full Bronx/Manhattan Third Ave El existed.
@@owltellyouwut I'm remembering it differently -- that the "8" bullet was purple, the same color as the "7" bullet -- but I, too, could be muddling this up. I also remember seeing a "10" bullet; no idea what color it was.
I lived on 207th (9 train) and had to commute to 86th (1/9 train) in HS from 2003-2005. I swear that two or three 1 Trains would come before a 9 sometimes.
15:00 my opinion I will like the (V) to replace the Kings highway (F) train so the (F) can run rush hour on the middle track then from church Avenue go express to jay Street that will reduce time and make the (F) more attractive....
@@TransitTalkNYC there can’t be 5 trains on 6th Ave so maybe send limited rush hour E’s there via Culver express trust me as a E rider rush hours there is a E every minute so half of those E trains go to Kings highway and when coming back it goes local to Church then continue to express
@@Flash_Warn1ng CBTC upgrades could increase capacity for the Cranbeyrry Street Tunnel allowing the E train to access that Tunnel. At Jay Street it could switch to Culver.
Most things you said about why the 1/9 failed is contradicted by J/Z service. The real reason why the 9 was discontinued was inconsistency. At a public hearing in February, 2004, many people complained that at stations served by only the 1 train, they would see two or three 9 trains pass before a 1 train arrived, and vice versa. Now as for the failure of the JFK Express, you should know that when it was introduced in 1979, the A train only ran express in Brooklyn during rush hours. So outside of rush hour, the JFK Express had the Brooklyn express tracks to itself, thus improving it's efficiency as an express train. But the sad truth is that not only was the JFK Express never really popular, but a survey showed that the majority of riders were not air travelers but rather Howard Beach residents. And then in December, 1988 , the A train started running express in Brooklyn all day on weekdays, thus severely compromising the JFK Express's efficiency and necessity. It was discontinued 16 months later in April, 1990.
I mean we can refurbished the A and C tracks to include the K. Make the E Express from 42nd Street to WTC. Maybe the K can go to Brooklyn at Flatbush Avenue via the Utica Avenue line after Fulton street- Utica Avenue it would be elevated stopping at Eastern Parkway, Empire Blvd, e.t.c.
This is an interesting video. I have some ideas on how they could do it. Not sure how my solutions could be worked in practice, but after looking at the track map and the existing services, this is how I would probably do it. - For the 9 train, they could implement it as a diamond 1 in peak direction if they wanted to. From Manhattan, it could go all stations from Whitehall St South Ferry to Chambers St, use the express tracks with 2 and 3 up to 96th St, jump to 137th St on the middle track, all stations to 215th St then jump onto middle track again up to Van Cortlandt Park. For the H train (Euclid Avenue to Rockaway Park) and JFK Express, I have an alternative idea. So that the A doesn’t have to tackle two terminals in Queens, they could extend the C from Euclid Avenue to Ozone Park and then have all A services go to Far Rockaway. They could then have the H go all stations from Rockaway Park to Euclid Avenue then run express like the A up to Columbus Circle where the H would terminate. The A would continue onto Inwood 207th St just like it does currently. I have no idea how a K, V or brown M could work in the modern setting as they would not really have anything new to offer if they were put in.
I dont know who lives in queens but do in LIC and public transport isnt a problem at all, but in many other parts of queens theres only buses and like no trains. Many places in queens need train lines because most of queens feels like long island. All the lines that go to queens are crowded and they mostly have good service because of the lack of transport in queens. Any new line in queens and the H train going along the old rockaway line would really be used and crowd the line. The only thing tho i sthat there trying to do that but with the M rain and extend it to rockaway park. The M train has bad service like every 6-8 min on peak and it would become weird because there 8 car trains and service woudnt be good. That means the rockaway park yard and a new yard would need to be created to support this. This extension would be good for many people tho. U can also have a couple rush hour trains like 6 go to far rockaway and 6 go to rockaway park like now. Idk but this would be legit and ideal to happen. the MTA is studying the line now.
Having never (yet) been to NYC I don't understand much but somehow I still find your videos interesting. There's quite a bit I don't yet understand about the design philosophy of transit in NYC but your videos help me kind of understand.
@@gururaj6594 Having now been there it just looks so run down. Definitely needs a lot more investment. I don't know a lot about the commuting patterns but the entire systems seems incomplete. Especially since the commuter railways seem barely integrated into the overall system.
@@josh_jay_way I don't think so. It was always a skip-stop service. The way the tracks are configured on the Broadway Line from 96 St to 242 St makes express service very, very difficult.
I believe that the MTA is the only company in the world where you can give them 12 billion dollars and they will spend it all inside of a year, have no idea where it went and demand more. And no one holds them accountable.
If M riders in Bushwick and Williamsburg lose their one seat ride to 6th Avenue then they’ll be pissed off. Leave the M orange. During the 80’s when crime was bad, some people in Howard Beach took the JFK Express to circumvent the stops in Brooklyn and avoid “undesirables”.
Skip stop service works. It moves trains faster and timetables showed. Washington hieghts community wanted more service and they demanded all local trains
Before discussing why "skip stop" is bad, "Transit Talk" should have studied the Market-Frankford Line in Philadelphia so as to understand what skip stop is and isn't. NYC today runs another skip stop service on the Jamaica Line. It is the J/Z service, and it works pretty well.
If the 9 train is ever brought back, it should be converted into a rush hour peak express service that will use the center express tracks at the 1 train stations instead of the skip-stop method of bypassing the station. Similar to how I think the Z train’s service pattern should be converted into instead of being skip stop.
I can speak for West End (D) that it gets EXTREMELY crowded during rush hours (7AM~10AM, then 3PM~8PM) during the weekdays and it's almost nearly impossible to fit said crowds when it traverses between Atlantic Avenue and Bay Parkway. An extra line would definitely benefit the riders here, and when the (M) ran, trains were far more frequent and less crowded. Just a shame that they won't bring it back. Edit: Brown (M) didn't operate at all on the weekends, and it ran between Delancy St-Essex and Metropolitan Avenue; if I remember correctly. Weekend crowds were far less than the weekday ones.
The M was a low ridership route to the point where there are other ways for West End service, including installing two new switches south of 36th Street and swapping the D and R/W over there, increasing the frequency over there.
All five routes on a Central Park West line didn't run at the same time. The diamond shaped routes back then ran doing Rush Hours only. You got to know your history. Back then it made sense.
The removal of all rush hour service was a problem for the MTA. I understand the reason for the service changes in order to streamline services, but there is a way to reintroduce this. At the moment, all we really have is the Z Nassau st Express operated during peak hours as a skip stop service along the Broadway elevated and JAMAICA elevated. No center track between ENY and Suphin Blvd. One way to improve this line is improve the service hours. It only operates One hour during the morning and evening weekdays. This is ridiculous. The old K line operated from 6am to 10 am...245pm to 7pm. Also,the K ran local from ENY to 57th st..covering local stations along the Broadway elevated, while J and M were Express. The new route,as the Z,could serve as a rush hour connector between the southern division (95th st) to the Eastern Divisions ENY subway complex. This could restore service between Brooklyn and the Nassau st loop,and give assistance to the 4th Ave local service. The restoration of Broadway Brooklyn Express service via the J would reduce run time skipping 8 stations.. Like the older service, the J would operate A B skip stop between ENY and Jamaica. However, if push comes to shove,the J could be through routed back to Brooklyn via 4th ave...while the Z ends at Chambers st. The Broad st terminal might be a bottle neck, but the quick turnaround shown there makes this a "maybe problematic"..situation if something goes wrong. I'm more inclined to see the Z become a Short line route for quick turn around along the Broadway elevated and Nassau st subway.. At least there will be five minute waiting between Broad st..or Chambers to ENY core network.. 8 to 10 minutes waits to JAMAICA. During Midday, the Z will operate a 10 minute headways, and J at 10. Services will potentially be every 5 minutes at all stop stations.
The (8) designation was last used for the last remnant of the 3rd Ave El between 3rd Ave - 149 St and Gun Hill Road on the White Plains Line wich was demolished in 1973.
Planning rapid transit lines is a tall order and it requires more than one head to complete the job. This is what I like about TransitTalk NYC. Also, I like that rail Vansnookneragen map that you showed in your show. It is more comprehensive that the subway map.
I agree with you about the Brown *M", the "R" and "V" lines. The first problem is the unreliable and infrequent "R" line. So the "M" offered another option partially. Except it should have gone to 95th Street instead of the West End line with the "D". The only thing I would say more about the F/V is a peak direction express can come out of the F line south of Church Avenue. Although this would be good for passengers south of the line, the demand is on the B and Q lines. But splitting them up even justify having an express.
MTA Operations and Planning: not only do they try to give each line a yard for equipment, crew schedules also play into. I once was part of a union report on "cab time", spent physically on the train. D,F,N trains are 1 1
Sorry, some lines are 11/2 hour one way trips x4, for an 8hr day. The M replaced the very poor performing V. Now its one of those 1 1\2 hr runs.(Midnight local A trains 207/ FRk are a 2 hr, 4min run "scraping the wall"
Interesting there was an “8” train that ran in the bronx on third ave from gun hill to 149 hub (current bx41+ bus). It even used to run down 3rd ave in manhattan, but that manhattan part was demolished in the 50s. The bronx section was eventually demolished as well in the 70s. If you see an old map you will see the 8 train
Original 7 train between Flushing Main Street to Times Sq-42 St (Also I would like the V train on The Queens Blvd Lines in Express Service, then go local to 2 Av and extended to Essex St.)
After 1968, there was a different K Peak Direction service between 57th Street and 168th Street in Jamaica (Local in Manhattan), It was to provide service between Midtown and the Jamaica Line after the B was extended to Washington Heights, 168th Street. The K and the JJ provided Skip Stop service. In 1973 it was cut back to Eastern Parkway/Broadway Junction. Service ended in 1976, having skip stop on the Jamaica line eliminated (Until the J/Z skip stop service was introduced)
Between 1976 and the introduction of the Z train, there was still skip stop service on the J train line. There was "A" stations and "B" stations, as well as A/B stations for the morning rush hours. "A" J Trains made A stations, and "B" J trains made the other stops.
The train to the plane just wasn't worth it because it was a skip-stop service, you'd get stuck behind an A all the way to Howard Beach. The MTA could never possibly sell that to the public. If you really wanted a worthwhile express to JFK, the best (expensive) option would be for the LIRR to restore service thro the junction at Rego park and run trains from Penn to a center platform at Howard Beach. That would be some real speed. On that tangent, there was a time when the LIRR tracks down to Howard beach also connected to the tracks under Atlantic Ave.
They FINALLY extended the G in Brooklyn after rebuilding the center 2 tracks. It used to stop at Smith - 9st, now it ends at Church Ave so they can run the F express to Church.
Not really.
The G was extended to Church Av because of 4 Av transfer to the R.
They have a GO coming up next week with weekend G trains terminating at Smith 9th and weekday G service turning at 18th Ave. If the V was brought back it should be weekdays only and go to 96st via 6th ave.
@@michaelscott7706 I rail fanned it
As someone that is originally from Queens I always wished the E,F went further east than just to Jamaica/Hillside respectively. Used to have to take the q46 from Kew Gardens to 259 and Union. But living jn the Bronx now I wish they would make a line from there going down directly to Queens.
@@jasonjtd79dunne88 I remember when the G train went to steinway. queens is right next to BK, so they shouldn't force us to go tru Manhattan to get there. the G train is the red headed step child of the MTA... I also agree to making it easier to get to bronx from queens, cuz that shit its ridiculous
The “C” ran peak hours only. The “K” ran all times except peak hours and nights. It was a former “AA”
There actually was an 8 train, it was the 3 av shuttle in the bronx and it would run alongside the 2 and the 5 up until gun hill road.
The "F" not being expressed to church is due to local politics. The affluent neighborhood where Bergen is protested that they would be " downgraded" to a local stop. According to the MTA the Bergen express station is in too much disrepair that it would cost too much to fix.
I work for MTA and the express station is really bad! With all the money they waste on projects that take waaaay to long to finish it could be fixed. They waste money and cry broke!
@@cstism Did someone say east side access?
But how much exactly? Like between $500 million to $1 billion? Like with the Chambers Street BMT station?
@@ejm1225 Maybe, but the repairs of Chambers street and Bergen, are more useful to the average New Yorker than a white elephant like east side access. Repairing Chambers alone could result in additional service.
Politicians should be separated from transit
I sometimes, took the JFK air train to Howard Beach, when I lived there.
A few outlandish suggestions:
1. The K runs from Bedford to Canarsie. There are switch tracks at West 4th, Chrystie, and Broadway Jucntion that could make this possible.
Bedford-145 on the D Line.
145-West 4 on the C line
West 4th-Bway-Lafayette on the F line via switch track to 6th.
Bway-Lafayette-Delancey-Essex on the M line via Chrystie St exch.
Delancey-Essex-Bway Jcn on the J line.
Bway-Jcn-Rockaway Pkwy-Canarsie on the L Line via switch track at Bway-Jcn.
2. The 9: have it run local while the 1 does peak express service (or vice versa due to this next suggestion). But extend the 9 to Brooklyn and switch it to the 4/5 line to run express Utica Ave with the 4. The switch could take place somewhere between Borough Hall Sta. and Atlantic Ave.
3. The Brown M: The J and M took over the N and R lines when they were incapacitated by the damage of its Cortlandt St Station just after the 2001 attack. Why not have the J shadow the R and the M shadow the N?
Outlandish Ideas that would cost billions:
4. Build the Utica Ave extension, and let the V train service it, terminating at 2nd Ave Station.
5. The H: Restore the track between on the Far Rockaway Branch and connect it to the Qns. Blvd line at 63rd Drive and have it terminating at Woodhaven Blvd. Build a track loop past Woodhaven Blvd under the QB ROW so it could turn around and return to Far Rockaway.
A couple things about the H train,
during summers on the weekend it is extended to rockaway blvd
they are thinking of reactivating the abandoned rockaway beach branch and putting service through lower montauk (queens superexpress) or the queens blvd line. While this probably won't happen, it's cool that the MTA is thinking about it and not only us transit nerds lol
Illogical because the a train is slow in queens and the s train gets entirely replaced by the h train,but the k train replace the sir,so the h train goes to rock park and does the same thing as the a train but won’t run in Manhattan and south of broadway junction during late nights,but the c train can take lefferts blvd and run 24/7,basically the a and c train swapping roles,but the service pattern is intact,while the h train during late nights has two branch lines one via the lirr thing you mentioned,note the blue s train goes from rock park over the existing a line,then via the abandoned lirr thing during daylight hours only.
We are not transit nerds. We are railroad buffs and transit fans for one common cause. That is to share our knowledge about rail transit planning. It is a thing that the general riding public does not take notice of.
@@alexthemtaandr211weatherfa2 ok wtf
@@alexthemtaandr211weatherfa2 That makes no sense dude
6:56 I agree, a personal expansion plan I have has 3 Island Platforms on 2 Levels, 2 A Division, 1 B Division
I really loved the brown M on the west end line! My dad used to ride the M from bay parkway to his work since 2009, I don't even remember if I rode on the M since 2009 because I was only 2 years old that time, I also live near the D and N trains and will always remember the M with the D train!
Me too! I used to live off the 79th street stop and worked in downtown Brooklyn and that empty M train was a godsend.
I remember one morning I went home after visiting a friend and I was at Bay Parkway… I was like where’s the M? A lady told me… Oh!! As of yesterday the M doesn’t come down here anymore. I was like ugh!! Guess I will have to stand on the D 😡
@@ariesmichaelsayan4013 Damn
@@douglasjgallup k
I used to live by the Fort Hamilton Parkway stop on the West End line, & rode the M while it was there. It did make my commute easier back then, & gave me an option between the THEN B & the M.
The K (formerly AA) existed because at one point, the C (from Broad Channel to the Bronx) was a rush hour only route alongside the rush hour B between Columbus Circle and 145th Street. When they finally came to their senses and made the C an everyday route from 168th to Euclid & rerouted the B to 145th St/the Bronx, there was no need for the K anymore.
The brown M ran as a shuttle from Middle Village to Myrtle Av on weekends
Hope that helps.
What about the yellow B and D train ?
The Yellow B & D were basically continuations of the Orange B & D (from the Bronx/168th St) to Brooklyn due to that Manhattan Bridge project connecting at Herald Sq...& it made sense for both to end at 57th/7th (Yellow Diamond B at Astoria) rather than at Herald Square, which would've clogged all 4 routes running those Broadway express tracks. That's a whole different case. They were not permanent routes like the 9, H, K, brown M, V & JFK.
@@KCIRProjaM1 oh thxs god bless
@@KCIRProjaM1 does this mean the brown M still runs but technically as a shuttle between Myrtle Avenue-Broadway and Middle Village?
@@louisianafriesss great question. IDK. 🤣
The 63rd street extension on the F line came into existence in 1989.
The Airport line was strictly for business riders as you paid an extra fare ON BOARD the train. The riders were for people who wanted to get to downtown BK, Wall Street and Midtown without many stops.
The M train is one of the original elevated lines. I ran from Mid. village down Myrtle to downtown BK. The Brown M to brooklyn can happen any time they want. The connection from the Willie B bridge to 6th Avenue would remain. It's been there and unused for many years.
A local train starting at Columbus Circle or 6th Ave/57th street over the F line to Kings Highway would be great. The local (terminal KH) & G train (terminal Church St.) could could handle service to Kings Highway. The express from Jay St - (perhaps Bergen lower level) - 7th Ave- Church- Kings Highway.
The only junction unused is the one at Broadway junction and the one beyond Broad a street to court street on the R
@@fgaye1 huh?
nice idea
The M Train rolled between Metropolitan Avenue and Myrtle Avenue, and then continued on the Broadway trestle. The MJ, which line was in sky blue ran with its old Q-type wooden cars from Metropolitan Avenue to Bridge Street. The old Myrtle Avenue Trestle from Broadway to Bridge Street could support only the Q-Type cars. They were lighter than the steel railcars.
Gonna be a long reply, bear with me lol. Great video BTW
-Skip-stop is more for passenger distribution, rather than a traditional "express". The 9 was useless simply because there was so few stops actually skipped, and all of those stations have pretty heavy ridership. All of them former 9 trains simply became extra 1 trains. It works on the J/Z because there's more stops skipped.
-The frequency for the A branches doubles after Rockaway Blvd. A 7 minute wait at a station like Jay St is a 14 minute wait at like 111 St or Broad Channel.
-The JFK Express is dead forever lol. That train was mostly used by Howard Beach residents to avoid the riff-raff, and paid the extra fare.
-The K was just fodder. It would be super useless now.
-The M/V combo was probably the best thing they've ever done. The V was empty more often than not, and was nothing more than extra 53 St service. 2 Av was a convenient terminal for it. The old M was used in Brooklyn just because it was there. Most of the time you would be the only person in the car from Bay Pkwy all the way to Atlantic
NYC shouldnt bring back any line except maybe 3rd av. They should call the queens blvd M the B and the coney island B the M. Then extent the M off the J line to the east of all those queens blvd/broadway trains. They need to make a new H that goes the length of Woodhaven to Queens Blvd. That street is already big and crowded. Extend the G and the N to LGA. Extend the 3 into JFKs terminals. Take the L north on 10th av in manhattan. Of course do Utica av from the water to the A on fulton. And please somehow ppl ....drop the Franklin av shuttle underground BEFORE it hits Atlantic and and countinue on to the G. Then start 4 tracking everything and NY will be the best once again! 🗽
@@mrgooglethegreat , and you morons should shut the fuck up and expand on the subway system, as well as modernize it as well. Moreover, you should also get rid of the vast majority of the streets in New York City and just make one group of vertically oriented subways and another group of horizontally oriented subways that are deeper underground than the vertically oriented subways, thus getting rid of vehicle congestion, on street parking, and parking lots in the New York City Metropolitan Area.
@@mrgooglethegreat Utica should be the (3)
“It works on the J/Z” *it doesn’t.* Why do you think there are so many proposals to remove the Z. It’s functionally useless and hinders users, it saves like 1 minute of time while servicing *less* passengers, If the J was just a normal 2 track line like the L without any skip-stop, and the Z trains were transferred to the J, it would be so much more functional.
Regarding the 1 and 9 skip stop. It was a disaster from the beginning. I was a Conductor at the time that service was in place. Most of the time they both made all stops. It was confusing to most of the riders because it or at least was a heavy Spanish speaking line at the time. And when it did run. Riders were confused. They'd just pull the emergency brake at the stops it skipped and climb out from in between cards. Slowing service down. It was a happy day when it was finally discontinued.
The lirr to the AirTrain is now considered the “JFK” express. The JFK express ceased operations before the AirTrain even existed so getting from Jamaica to JFK took much longer since you had to take a bus. You also had to take a bus from the JFK express train to the Airport as well but a much smaller route.
"Take the train to plane--the train to the plane..." I remember that commercial when I was a kid! lol
Ever since coming to NYC I’ve been fascinated by the subway! I appreciate knowing this bit of history … thanks for sharing
Me too! My parents moved to suburban NYC in 1966.
I was born and raised in Manhattan on 125th and Amsterdam Ave, so I used either the 1 train (on 125th & Broadway) or the A and D trains (on 125th & 8th Ave). The A, D express from 125th St. to 59th St. (Columbus Circle) was great. When I went to High School in Brooklyn, that one express jump saved me a lot of time over three years. 🎉
I should also mention that the 9 train wasn't around all that long. I remember when it was introduced, thinking that it didn't make sense because there's "effectively" only one track for both the 1 and 9 trains (because of track switch and station arrangements). So the 9 train didn't last very long.
Nice video by the way. 🤗 I was very well explained. Bravo.
The (M) used to go to Coney Island via Brighton Line during weekdays
Back in the mid 1970's the E train ran on the C line From 179 St. . to Euclid Ave.. I believe the C train was shuttle train that ran somewhere in Queens on the Far Rockaway A line..
The C which was the CC at the time ran from Bedford Park Blvd to Rockaway Park in the rush hour. After that the rush I don't remember what it did. Fun fact. It was the only line that touched The Bronx, Manhattan, Brooklyn and Queens.
They need to bring some of these lines back and build new railroads for them. Where I live is a train desert. We have no trains in our area and we have to take a bus to any train. They should restore some of these old train lines and build routes for them in areas where there are no commercial. Near where I live there is a freight train railroad on Utica Ave that is almost never used. They should use these abandoned freight railroads for some of the defunct train lines.
New to the channel! Born and raised in NYC (although I currently call the west coast home). For those that might be too young to remember, the JFK Express or the "Train to the Plane" as it was called back in the day was actually marketed by MTA as a premium service. You paid your fare at the turnstile and then boarded those trains (usually with all your luggage in tow) and paid an additional fare which was dropped into a collection box similar to what they used on the buses back in the day. Only certain doors on certain cars would open (usually the last of the four cars which also housed a conductor who would collect additional fares). As I recall, most riders on this line were folks from out-of-town who thought it was a quick and convenient way to get from midtown to the airport or vice versa. Locals from my neighborhood (in Brooklyn) either used gypsy cabs or took the bus to JFK.
It was also nice to learn about lines MTA put into service after I left NYC for graduate school on the west coast. Namely, the H, K, and V lines. I had no idea that they discontinued the M. Thanks so much for sharing. Looking forward to whatever else is yet to come on this channel...
I remember, and it was 5 bucks extra.
There were two "8" trains in the NYC Subway System.
The first one was on the Astoria Line which terminated at Ditmars Blvd. The 8 was an extension of the Queensboro Line which is now part of the 7 line. The 8 ran along the Queensboro line. And it terminated on the other side of the Steinway tunnel at Grand Central Terminal. Service between Astoria and Manhattan ran between 1917 - 1949.
The second 8 train ran exclusively in the Bronx along the 3rd Avenue line. This 8 was a relatively short line. It ran between the 3rd Avenue Station, ran all along 3rd Avenue and terminated at the Chrystie Street Connection. Sadly, this 8 train was short lived. It ran for only six years between 1967 - 1973, when it was replaced by the Bx55 Bus line and then later by the Bx15.
As someone who isn’t native to nyc and moved here only a few years ago, this is some fascinating stuff! I used to live at the Seneca Ave M stop and I didn’t know that the M used to go with the J and Z lines and then continue into Brooklyn with the D line! This makes so much more sense than its current wonky route
I was in favor of having the brown M train going to Bay Parkway everyday. The could've had the brown M go express to Bay Parkway and would've eased rush hour madness on the D train.
The brown M went through the Montague St tunnel.
Bergen St lower level station is a mess. Never reopen.
The #8 train used to be the 3rd Avenue train before they tore down that line. The number is reserved, so it wasn't used. If they could install platform doors at the skipped station, then the trains would not have to slow down.
After they tore down the Manhattan portion of it, the Bronx part ran for a few more years and while on the maps it was listed as the 8 train, if you actually took the train, it didn't have 8 on it but had the S for shuttle instead.
Thanks for clarifying this. You solved a mystery I had wondered about from time to time over the last 25 years. Before I lived in NYC, I visited my dad one summer. I saw a K train sign at canal street. It was 1995. I couldn’t find it on any map. We asked a few MTA employees and a police officer about it, but no one had ever heard of the K train.
Remember that skip-stop service is not designed to save time. It never was. It’s meant to save space on trains and relieve crowding on trains during the busiest periods of the day. As someone who used the 1/9 and the J/Z at different points in my life, there was nothing really wrong with it. You just had to keep that in mind. Yes it was annoying to wait in the station (with the doors closed) because there was another train in front of it. But this happens on many days during the rush hour anyway.
Side note: Same is true for limited-stop bus routes. Super annoying when you get on a limited bus route, and the local bus passes you and you’re like, wtf?? But once again, it’s not designed to save time or be speedy, etc. it’s supposed to save space on buses.
Thanks for your vids 🤘🏿🙏🏿💯
The H is the Rockaway Park shuttle on the pick sheets. Years ago it was a round Robin from RKP to Mott then Mott to Euclid and back to RKP midnights only. The A went to Lefferts 24 hours then the A just went to Mott 24 hours and the OPTO lefferts shuttle came to light.
And here's me still wondering why they didn't swap B and D back after the Manhattan Bridge repair was done - good to see you reference Vanshnookenragen map though, it's always with me on my laptop \m/
The Q is a full time train to Second Avenue. So with the Q running full time on Brighton Beach, they did not need two full time lines on the Brighton Line. The D was switched over to West End mine, giving 24 hour access to Manhattan as well. It sucked back in the day when people had to get off the B shuttle at that line.
It was a good idea in theory during rush hour but as you pointed out it didn’t work as much. All they did was switch 9 trains to 1 and have them make all stops all the time.
Yeah I think that we should have 9 return but Broadway Express.
I wish the JFK limited express comes back to running between 57th Street, and JFK Howard Beach Airport. I do miss that express service.
As someone who lived in Rockaway, mad people use the Shuttle (formerly the H train).
Back in the 35 cent day, the Broadway Local used to run a 'Thru Express' during rush hour that selectively skipped certain UWS stations before hitting the Bronx.
People don't remember the C Train Originally went to Bedford Park Blvd The Bronx doing rush hours from the B Train Line.
The CC at the time. Ran from Bedford Park Blvd to Rockaway Park. Only line to touch all mainland boros.
@@MrRoyalewhat happened to that it sounds cool ?
^
@@MrRoyaleI remember!
I remember!
103, 116th Street, 125th Street, and 137th Street are very popular stations. Even skip stop service never skipped. Plus there’s no place actual platforms for a 1 express to stop. There are huge operational issues you just mentioned.
Exactly, the 9 train didn't work because it skipped too few stops, and the stops it did skip were heavily used.
@@mikoparolantowell if the 9 does return then the line would need to have island platforms at 125, 157, 225 and 242 streets.
Great Video, I think the H could exist again if they could run a combined rapid transit service via a reactivation of the abandoned portion of the Rockaway Beach Branch, then as you said connecting to the LIRR main line and terminating at its own platform at Penn (which could work with the planned expansions to Penn discussed.
The train to the plane failed for being a premium service. If it wasn't a premium service and simply operated as a super express, that probably would be a heavily used service. Run it from 59th Street Columbus, making all stops in Manhattan and Jay, then making no other stops other than maybe Broadway Junction for the transfer until Howard Beach and replacing the shuttle to Rockaway during rush hours. That would be one heck of a service. I read that quite a few people in Howard Beach paid the premium fare for the faster trip when it did exist, for the faster trip. I think it could be a great service, but only if it's not premium fare. That's what ultimely killed it.
And the weekend brown M was just a short shuttle from Metropolitan Avenue to Myrtle Ave where riders needed to xfer to the J to go further.
I have another idea for broad st:
Renovate station to have four tracks and make the entire station different from the old looks
There should be a subway line connecting to throggs neck to Brooklyn Honestlt
New Roles in regards to the 9 train goes to 148 Lenox Avenue. Meaning the 3 train helps the 4 train in Jerome and the Moshulu Cars
How would you get the 3 to the Jerome line from the Westside?
About that Queens Crosstown Line, the demand is there. The Rockaway Beach Branch is currently proposed to be revitalized, plus two heavily used Select Bus Service corridors run a few blocks away from the proposed RBB reintegration.
Edit: The K ran because the C was rush hours only.
@Antonio Cartel I say revive the G extension to the former Rockaway Beach Branch, and have it run down to either Howard Beach, Broad Channel, or Far Rockaway-Mott Avenue. While they're doing that, they should revived Woodhaven Junction station as an LIRR transfer station, and convert the bridge beneath the LIRR Main Line in Rego Park into another LIRR transfer station.
@@DTD110865 They should also considering converting Woodhaven Blvd - Slattery Plaza into an express station. You have the provisions to make it an express train, plus Woodhaven Blvd has a lot of ridership. Not to mention, but making Woodhaven Blvd an express station, will help lower the crowds at Roosevelt Av
Some weekends the Brown-Line went to prospect park. Most recently the J did that. It was liked cuz it didn't segregate Brooklyn. You just take the Brighton Line, walk off platform hop and the J in same platform. Easier trip on Jamaica line.
Why not have the run to Forest Hills or beyond when the does not reach Forest Hills on the weekends?
Amazing video. Do you think you could do a series wear you review MTA's rolling stock for their busses, subway fleet etc?
I remember the 9 train being in service. I was born in 2001 so I have very faint memories of riding it before it was defunct in 2005.
And ofc I grew up with the original Brown M and the V train, I wish those were still around
I lived at 18th Ave on the D in Brooklyn. I loved the brown M because it was easy access to manhattan when I went to elementary in the city. After they removed it, the D was always packed from 18th and always got delayed at Dekalb
To the Railfans and Formers wanting these services back. Listen it’s never going to happen the MTA had valid reasons to remove those services in the first place
9 train: It was a failed subway line. Heck the 9 train was a failure from DAY 1, The skip stop services was hated by many 1 train riders even when it was first proposed in 1988 it got a lot of backlash from Inwood and Washington Heights riders. It’s started in 1989 at first the 9 train was all weekdays, than in 1994 the 9 train got strictly reduced to rush hours only due to unpopularity. Than in 2005 the 9 train was eliminated entirely due to customers wanting more frequent service and the 1 train now makes all stops.
K train: It was essentially a half assed copy and paste of the C train it has literally no unique route that justify keeping the K train route the K train was nothing but a waste of space and if it wasn’t eliminated it 1988 it would’ve most likely been eliminated anyway in 2010 with the budget cuts it was completely unnecessary and not needed
V train: Arguably the most realible train route out of all of them still suffered from low ridership nevertheless and It was basically F trains running local in queens and on a shorter route to Manhattan. I felt that it needed more of a purpose, the 2010 gave it that purpose when the V train was annexed to the M train. And when coming to the bottom line with how much people like the new M train route the V train has NO MORE purpose on the 6th Avenue line
Brown M train: to be perfectly honest the Brown M train was very useless I mean it was basically J train running via Myrtle ave line. It was often empty, it carried more air than PASSENGERS, Back then The majority of riders often transfer to delanacy st Essex st for F train service to get to midtown. It reroute to the 6th Avenue line while cause of budget cuts turn out to be the BEST THING thats happened to the M train. M train was rerouted from downtown to 6th Ave which has proven very popular and an alternative to the crowded L train
The Jamaica/Myrtle Avenue line got a one seat ride to midtown via the M train. It not perfect but it took some pressure off the L train, and a serious alternative to the overcrowded L trains were needed
Well the only major downside of the M rerouting is that M train riders did lose one seat ride to lower Manhattan and during rush hours southern Brooklyn, and even that isn’t really a loss especially when you consider the fact that Williamburg is demanding more midtown service lower Manhattan has a lower ridership Heck at Broadway Junction a handful of J/Z riders transfer to the A/C and/or L trains to get to midtown and before y’all bring up (the “brown M train help the D and R trains during in southern Brooklyn during Rush Hours arguments”) That not a valid excuse. In fact the Brown M train via west end/4th Avenue is the LITERALLY definition of "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink." basically no one went to southern Brooklyn via Nassau Street or took the Brown M train to Nassau Street The demand is to midtown via the 6th Avenue or Broadway lines. EVEN DURING rush hours the trains were nearly empty and if they really want to get to lower Manhattan they can just transfer to the J/Z train. The J/Z aren’t even that crowded so it doesn’t justify bring back the Brown M train. You would be pissing off a lot of Williamsburg and Bushwick riders that want to get to midtown. Yes, there is a demand for lower Manhattan from Williamsburg but there’s still the J/Z trains
And the G train via Queens Blvd: Perhaps we overestimated the realible of the G train on queens blvd. It’s was kinda a waste to have the G train run on queens blvd when the demand to midtown Manhattan was much higher. I think the G‘s one-seat ride between Brooklyn and Queens was a bit overstated. It was not a hugely popular service when it did run there. And given that the QB Line is the second busiest in the system, with an overwhelming rider preference for Midtown Manhattan service, bringing back the G to Queens Blvd would benefit a relatively small number of riders. It would probably be even less popular if it were brought back than it was in 2001 when weekday G service was cut back to Court Square to make room for the V. If anything I would said extend the G train to the Bronx creating a sort of a Triboro Subway line.
The JFK express train: A failed subway a waste of money, a waste of time, a waste of space, and a waste of resources. Plan and simply worst subway line to ever exist
Finally, a post based on logic and not railfanning fantasies.
@@activecity4051 Might as well send the E train there
@@activecity4051 Yes remember even with the Worth Street Line you won’t have enough space for the K train to be revived. This also leaves space for a new Utica Avenue to be built
proposal for 2nd Avenue line that expands capacity
In Harlem a new 125th Street Crosstown Amsterdam Avenue running up to 168th street Subway line would be build with transfer to the 1/2/3/4/5/6/A/C/B/D. The T train would be sent there this gives People on West Harlem easier access to the East Side of Manhattan taking pressure off the 7/L trains.
As for the Bronx the most popular proposal is to rebuild the 3rd Avenue line so I split it up into multiple phases in order to better manage the costs phase 1 would be to build a new tunnel in the Harlem river and extending the Q train to 3rd Avenue 149th street. Phase 2 would be to extend the Q to Fordham Plaza. And phase 3 would be to extend the Q to Gun Hill Road. A optional phase 4 to Co Op City should be studied too. This would balance out west and east side TPH. And maybe even reduce crowding on the 2 train since now people would have a another option of getting to the West side of Manhattan. The 3rd Avenue line would have three tracks to allow for a peak way express and creation of a new Express Train. The express stops would be Co Op city, Gun Hill Road, Fordham Plaza, Tremont Avenue, 3rd Avenue 149th street, and 3rd Avenue 138th street.
Now usually it’s the T via Bronx and Q via Harlem y’all used to but the reasoning for it is that currently they is 50 trains during rush hours heading to east midtown the 4/5/6 trains vs 25/30 trains heading to west midtown the 2/D. The 1 is further west away from the rest of the Bronx line and only three stations so technically we could exclude it in this scenario. The B is a rush hour only extension and runs on the same route as the D so it doesn’t really count as it’s own Individual line. Add the Q train would balance the ridership access out. And Broadway is a much more attractive line to be extended to the Bronx since it stops at a bunch of major transfer points in midtown ETC (Times Square Herald Square Union Square).
And sending the T to 125th street crosstown Amsterdam avenue would give the people on Harlem easier access to the east side of Manhattan reducing crowding on the 7/L trains.
And people are saying that the Q train might be too long while I agree with this at first. Realistic that argument is moot cause I believe we overestimated the length cause let’s be honest the Q train won’t be anywhere near as long as the A or F trains. It would be around the same length as the B train. In fact my proposed K train route would be longer than the Q train
My estimate on the Q train length.
Longer than the N train, Shorter than the D train.
On queens a new 4 track Northern Blvd subway line would be build two new new 2nd Avenue lines will be created these are both currently defunct services the K and V trains.
The K train would start off at Springfield blvd then it will meet up with the V train at Utopia Parkway the V train would run local while the K train would run express. The local only stations are
164th Street
Kissena Blvd
Main Street Elder Avenue
College Point Blvd
108th Street
100th Street
85th Street
78th Street
Local and Express stops
Utopia Parkway
Willets Points Blvd (transfers to flushing line)
Junction Blvd
Broadway Northern Blvd (transfers to queens blvd line)
Both trains are based out of Sunnyside Yard
The K train would branch off Broadway stoping at
31st Street (transfer to Astoria line)
21st Street
Then a lower level at 72nd Street 2nd Avenue would be made then the K train rises up at 42nd street as the express service.
The V train
would branch using the existing 63rd street tunnel than connects to 55th Street running local with the T train.
The reasoning why I propose Northern Blvd/2nd Ave express trains using the 63rd St tunnel. Is that It would allow would allow riders coming from 6th Ave, Queens blvd, Hillside the chance to easily transfer to the 2nd Ave Subway.
2nd Avenue would be expanded to 4 tracks the K train would extend to a new Williamburg Utica Avenue line first it would stop at Clinton Street and Bedford Avenue
The proposed Utica Avenue line would include 8th Avenue and 2nd Avenue services
The E train would also be extended to Williamsburg using the Worth Street provisions with the stations at Worth Street Chambers Street, Chatham Square, East Broadway and finally Montgomery Street. The Benefits are that it opens up new transfer options for riders in lower Manhattan. World Trade Center terminal will continue to get service but during rush hours only. The World Trade Center would be used to terminate extra C/E train during rush hours if their isn’t capacity on the Brooklyn routes when CBTC is Installed on the 8th Avenue, Fulton street, and the proposed Williamsburg lines. So a total of 8-10 rush hour trains would terminate there 4-5 rush hour C/E trains each would be sent there. But that might limit capacity on the Fulton street and the proposed Williamsburg lines. At all other times WTC is closed so you have to take the E to canal street for an A or C train I mean the Chambers street and World Trade Center are literally the same station complex so shutting it down shouldn’t be too much of a problem, however it does have a ridership count so some people might not like the sound of being forced to transfer at Canal Street for a A/C train. The World Trade Center would still be used for emergencies or G.O work.
The E train will also make one stop at Bedford Avenue before meeting up with the K train at Havemeyer street
This route would run south 3rd street and Utica Avenue it would be a 4 track line the E train is the local and the K train is the express.
Local exclusive stops
Flushing Avenue
Lafayette Avenue
Halsey Street
Prospect Place
Empire Blvd
Church Avenue
Avenue D
Flatlands Avenue
Avenue N
All local and express stops
Havemeyer Street
Broadway South 4th street
Myrtle Avenue
Utica Avenue Fulton Street
Crown Heights Utica Avenue
Kings Highway
Kings Plaza Utica Avenue
This proposed south 3rd street and Utica Avenue line would help balance the load of new commuters from Williamsburg, Bushwick and Bed-Stuy which currently use the L or M to get to Midtown or take the J to get to Lower Manhattan. The J train and the BMT Centre St Subway in general suffer from being built when everyone from northern Brooklyn were headed to lower Manhattan and the Financial District. Today commuting patterns have changed that now both lower Manhattan and midtown are popular designations but the high cost of new infrastructure has hampered the ability to make needed service changes. The new Williamburg line that would be served by the E and K trains would give communters more alternatives for folks in Williamburg other than having to use the congested J/Z M and L trains. And it’s would be very attractive as it offers both west side and east side access to Manhattan.
Phase 4 would be build too
Hanover Square would be expanded to 4 tracks the inner tracks used for terminating trains the outer tracks used for Brooklyn service. the V train would only run up to Hanover Square. T trains would be extend to Fulton street local using the Court Street transit museum link. T/V meets up with the A/C at Hoyt Street the C train would be moved to the Express tracks with the A train on Broadway junction the T train would continue to Euclid Avenue. The C train would be extended to Lefferts Blvd. All A trains can than be diverted to Far Rockway and Rockway Park. During late nights V train won’t operate at all the K train operates local in its place. Lefferts shuttle still operates during late nights. The T train ends a at Hoyt street with the A train becoming local
@@Amiri_Francis I wonder how long you spent to replay
10:27 plane to the train ? take the plane to the train XD
@@TransitTalkNYC you crack me up dude your he best bro
10:44 - 'Out-of-town' people going from Manhattan to JFK Airport want no contact with the people of mid-Brooklyn.
Now, the E-train service is the Train-to-the-Plane -- to the AirTrain at Jamacia. 12:39
12:50 - Was the World Trade Center station newly built about 50 years ago?
Stick up kids were out to''tax'' back in those days.
Your whiteness is showing. And before people get on my case, yes when the service was first started, those Brooklyn neighborhoods were mostly black until the 2000's and back then I hear people say they rode that line to avoid riding along side "colored" folks.
Now a lot of these lines were rightfully removed. I do believe MTA should run heritage trains one a year like they do with the Christmas trains. However I think something that is needed is the extension of the Franklin ave shuttle!
They're actually be REPLACING it, they tore it down and replaced it with buses. Where the M turns onto the J/Z line above Broadway in Brooklyn is another example, it used to run to what's now the Jay St - MetroTech station.
Recently there has been brown M train signs popping up around certain stations like Canal and Atlantic Ave's
Yes, but that is likely because people pulled stickers off of the signs. The MTA puts stickers on the signs to hide the Brown M, and people peel it off. I've seen Brown M signs at Borough Hall and V train signs at 14 St.
The the train used to be rush hour's operating only. It was never suspended. The (K) train was just a rename of the (AA) train. You have to know the history of these lines. I go way back with these lines following these train lines since I was 7 years old.
I agree with this! Instead of making new lines they could bring back these lines.
9 train can work during rush hours. The orange m gets split into 2 lines the v can go to Chruch Avenue with the g, while the the brown m can get sent to fresh meadows direct service.
What about the T train, that hasn't been sued since the mid 1960's.
The train kudve used the express track btwn 96 - 157 St and Dykman to 242 St.
J trains can still terminate at Broad St while brown M continues to Brooklyn, since there are extra switchback tracks for J trains to switch back, without cutting M's main track. As an example, some 1 trains terminate at 137 St.
20:58 actually it kinda is the MTA’s fault because trains can end at city hall
Never mind you mentioned it
The "K" was simply the AA after they drop the double letters.
Also when the AA ran, the B and CC did not run. The AA was the part time, while the B and CC was rush hours only. So often riders of these lines along central part west often seen the AA than the B and CC, because the AA also ran on weekends. It was a cost cutting move for this period.
Unfortunately, "A" service was force to cover local service outside rush hours in Brooklyn.
Another point of history was there was another "B" and "K" service.
The "B" ran from both 168th Street and 57th Street.
The "B" from 168 was the 6th Avenue Express while the 57 "B" was the local. The 57 ran full time as the only train besides the JFK. I forgot what served 57 unless it was closed midnights.
As for the K service that ran like the M train today. But it ran only to 57th Street.
I personally like the idea of the "K" service as it ran with the J. It was the express from Broadway East NY to Essex Street.
Back then the double letter lines were local only at least in Manhattan. That got changed the same year I started college so going to school and expecting to ride the A local instead I was on the C line.
They could bring back the Same K Route and have it follow the J to Jamaica Center it would use 8 cars, so it could run with the J, the J needs this because during Rush Hours the frequency is mediocre
@@briancatchflightss yes! It could replace the Z skip stop. The "J" becomes the rush hour Express between East New York/Broadway Junction to Essex Street. The "K" becomes the local.
Extended idea
The center track could be restored, but no Woodhaven Station is not built.
The center track is built and Woodhaven Station is built to accommodate Express.
Additional Cypress Hills station is built. Local trains allow Express trains to go first to skip stations via Fulton Street into Broadway Junction.
Provide for a single track South of Jamaica Avenue with no stops to Broadway.
I like the last idea the best, but this has already been proposed years earlier. The community wanted stations. Stations are a major expense of a project so the Authorities killed the plan.
Also running two must stop services is expensive from an operation viewpoint. So the concessions is to demolished the Fulton Street session. But this is the session that most people live.
The advantage is the S curve is gone though. The curve into Jamaica Avenue will be mild in comparison.
Another interesting thing about the Jamaica Broadway Elevated is that it connects to the Air Train.
It can also improve the number of people using the "E" in lower Manhattan. The Jam BWY would be significantly faster.
The more it is built out, the faster it become, making it more attractive to more riders.
If it were built out, I proposed a fly junction between the M and J lines at Myrtle Avenue. Something similar has been done in Chicago.
This would provide for more service via the "J" line. It could be promoted as an Airport connector.
The "J" could be extended with the "R" during the rush hours
@@briancatchflightss I have another idea of just running the "K" to Broadway Junction as an Express from the yard. It would be extended with the "R" rush hours to 95th Street.
Or it could be an all day service. This includes Weekends?
Does Broadway and 4th Avenue really need this service? Probably not!
This service is more geared to the "R" as an additional 4th Avenue service. Currently, the "N" does double duty on the Weekends. It is the Broadway 4th Avenue local, but operates via the bridge with the "Q". That's because the stations serving the "R" between DeKalb and City Hall is lightly used. But I still feel there should be a second option for 4th Avenue local. And I think it is unfair for "R" to be the only local.
The brown M train was very convenient and helped solve overcrowding on the D and R trains. I rode it every weekday for many years. The problem was the sporadic and limited service, which led to low or inaccurate ridership numbers, and that the MTA would hold it at 36th Street in order to let arriving D trains pass in front of it. That was a disincentive for riders who wanted to take the train that was leaving first. I always thought that it would be better if, rather than waiting in the station, that the D or M would run express on the middle track to Bay Parkway, alleviating the overcrowding on the rush hour trains. Now when I need to connect to the F or G trains, go to DeKalb Avenue or Broad Street, I have to switch trains. I think the MTA should seriously consider bringing back a new and improved brown M line.
Yea I miss going from Ridgewood to Bensonhurst on one train
@@michaelcatalano6208Are you sure people actually used the Brown M train back then? Is this for real?
@@michaelcatalano6208 The problem with the Brown M Train was that Bay Parkway was a terrible terminal because it was hard to relay trains West of the station instead of East…
@@TiagoGomez-hb9te yea I used to take it from fresh pond road to borough hall one train straight to downtown bk
@@michaelcatalano6208 How crowded was the Brown M Train down over at South Brooklyn during the Rush Hour is the million Dollar Question and does it justify bringing it back. The R is always terrible in Brooklyn and Ridership started booming down over at 4th Avenue after the MTA got rid of the Brown M line. I think the Brown M Train was too ahead of its time. IMO. Always loved taking that route especially when the SMEEs were on…
The issue with the 1/9 skip-stop was because that part of the line north of 137th Street had growing ridership and it didn't justify skip-stop anymore. Riders at skip-stop stations were experiencing longer wait times, and fewer riders were benefiting from the service pattern overall. It works for the J/Z because there are far more stops skipped and there's 5-6 minutes saved.
My idea would be to have a.m. rush hour trains with a zone express service. trains would operate from 242 to 137, then express to 96th Street, then local. (1) trains would enter service at Dyckman Street, then local all the way down to South Ferry.
Not only that, Washington Heights and Inwood residents weren't happy with the service plan in 1988, long before the MTA finalized the skip stop service.
As for the J/Z, it's skip stop is iffy at times.
You have a Z running local like its a J.
@@historyisthebestmyfans2094 I have definitely heard stories of trains en route being turned into locals because of crew shortages. Happened to me once.
@@imdanumber1 Even long before pandemic, the Z ran local sometimes.
I think once the service levels on Nassau get hectic, that's when Skip Stop service starts.
1. Turn the 9 into the 1 express (bypassing 103rd, 110th, 116th, 125th, then turns into the local by City College OR Ditto, but more earlier than the 1).
2. The H extension (becomes similar to the A service, alongside using the rockaway as the starting point and goes ALL the way towards 169th within the A service)
3. JFK Express refresher. (Makes the JFK stop at all of the express stops on its way to the airport).
4. K 168-WTC (self explanatory).
5. V extension to Church then F turns into express only past Church (self explanatory).
If I remember, the skip-stop started at 137 St.
I think the Train to the Plane really catered to folks in Manhattan. They’d be the ones to provide the premium price the transit system was asking for.
I think it would make sense if they have kept the 9 train, but only during peak hours, like the Z and it could run skip stop like the Z.
Not from NYC, or the east coast for that matter, but I really enjoyed this video. I've always had an interest in the NYC Subway and it's quirks. Thank you for educating me on discontinued train lines of NYC!
Top 10, videos that I didn’t skip 10 seconds through, great vid
The (8) was the final section of the 3rd Avenue Elevated, entirely separated from the system until they demolished it in 1973
The Third Avenue was physically connected to the #2 & #5 lines at the Gun Hill Road station in the northern Bronx until 1973, and had two other connections in the South Bronx when the full Bronx/Manhattan Third Ave El existed.
@@michaelsherrell6389 Two other connections? I know it also connected to the 2 and 5 at 149th/3d Avenue.
if i remember correctly, some 1 trains have the 8 train bullet on some cars, its rare tho
@@owltellyouwut I'm remembering it differently -- that the "8" bullet was purple, the same color as the "7" bullet -- but I, too, could be muddling this up.
I also remember seeing a "10" bullet; no idea what color it was.
@@stevevasta both were green actually
I lived on 207th (9 train) and had to commute to 86th (1/9 train) in HS from 2003-2005. I swear that two or three 1 Trains would come before a 9 sometimes.
Big reason why it didn't work.
15:00 my opinion
I will like the (V) to replace the Kings highway (F) train so the (F) can run rush hour on the middle track then from church Avenue go express to jay Street that will reduce time and make the (F) more attractive....
@@TransitTalkNYC there can’t be 5 trains on 6th Ave so maybe send limited rush hour E’s there via Culver express trust me as a E rider rush hours there is a E every minute so half of those E trains go to Kings highway and when coming back it goes local to Church then continue to express
@@Flash_Warn1ng CBTC upgrades could increase capacity for the Cranbeyrry Street Tunnel allowing the E train to access that Tunnel. At Jay Street it could switch to Culver.
@@justingaffneysamuels2072 I’ll do rush hour extension of my Minecraft v train via Central Park east line ind.
Most things you said about why the 1/9 failed is contradicted by J/Z service. The real reason why the 9 was discontinued was inconsistency. At a public hearing in February, 2004, many people complained that at stations served by only the 1 train, they would see two or three 9 trains pass before a 1 train arrived, and vice versa.
Now as for the failure of the JFK Express, you should know that when it was introduced in 1979, the A train only ran express in Brooklyn during rush hours. So outside of rush hour, the JFK Express had the Brooklyn express tracks to itself, thus improving it's efficiency as an express train. But the sad truth is that not only was the JFK Express never really popular, but a survey showed that the majority of riders were not air travelers but rather Howard Beach residents. And then in December, 1988 , the A train started running express in Brooklyn all day on weekdays, thus severely compromising the JFK Express's efficiency and necessity. It was discontinued 16 months later in April, 1990.
@@TransitTalkNYC Tbh West End is also in need of an express service but there isn't really a demand for it
I mean we can refurbished the A and C tracks to include the K. Make the E Express from 42nd Street to WTC. Maybe the K can go to Brooklyn at Flatbush Avenue via the Utica Avenue line after Fulton street- Utica Avenue it would be elevated stopping at Eastern Parkway, Empire Blvd, e.t.c.
The V was a hated line as it had a transfer at every single stop and the brown M got re added for some time as a shuttle
This is an interesting video. I have some ideas on how they could do it. Not sure how my solutions could be worked in practice, but after looking at the track map and the existing services, this is how I would probably do it.
- For the 9 train, they could implement it as a diamond 1 in peak direction if they wanted to. From Manhattan, it could go all stations from Whitehall St South Ferry to Chambers St, use the express tracks with 2 and 3 up to 96th St, jump to 137th St on the middle track, all stations to 215th St then jump onto middle track again up to Van Cortlandt Park.
For the H train (Euclid Avenue to Rockaway Park) and JFK Express, I have an alternative idea. So that the A doesn’t have to tackle two terminals in Queens, they could extend the C from Euclid Avenue to Ozone Park and then have all A services go to Far Rockaway. They could then have the H go all stations from Rockaway Park to Euclid Avenue then run express like the A up to Columbus Circle where the H would terminate. The A would continue onto Inwood 207th St just like it does currently.
I have no idea how a K, V or brown M could work in the modern setting as they would not really have anything new to offer if they were put in.
I dont know who lives in queens but do in LIC and public transport isnt a problem at all, but in many other parts of queens theres only buses and like no trains. Many places in queens need train lines because most of queens feels like long island. All the lines that go to queens are crowded and they mostly have good service because of the lack of transport in queens. Any new line in queens and the H train going along the old rockaway line would really be used and crowd the line. The only thing tho i sthat there trying to do that but with the M rain and extend it to rockaway park. The M train has bad service like every 6-8 min on peak and it would become weird because there 8 car trains and service woudnt be good. That means the rockaway park yard and a new yard would need to be created to support this. This extension would be good for many people tho. U can also have a couple rush hour trains like 6 go to far rockaway and 6 go to rockaway park like now. Idk but this would be legit and ideal to happen. the MTA is studying the line now.
Having never (yet) been to NYC I don't understand much but somehow I still find your videos interesting.
There's quite a bit I don't yet understand about the design philosophy of transit in NYC but your videos help me kind of understand.
@@gururaj6594 Having now been there it just looks so run down. Definitely needs a lot more investment.
I don't know a lot about the commuting patterns but the entire systems seems incomplete. Especially since the commuter railways seem barely integrated into the overall system.
The 9 was sort of an express that used the middle tracks to bypass stations
The 9 that I remember only did skip stop with the 1. I'm curious, Was there a 9 express and 1 local at some point??
@@josh_jay_way I don't think so. It was always a skip-stop service. The way the tracks are configured on the Broadway Line from 96 St to 242 St makes express service very, very difficult.
I believe that the MTA is the only company in the world where you can give them 12 billion dollars and they will spend it all inside of a year, have no idea where it went and demand more. And no one holds them accountable.
I think the MTA should make the (1) train express, like (Inwood Express)
I agree!
I always liked that idea.
in between 2001 and 2004 the m did go to Brooklyn on midday but only to 9 Av
If M riders in Bushwick and Williamsburg lose their one seat ride to 6th Avenue then they’ll be pissed off. Leave the M orange.
During the 80’s when crime was bad, some people in Howard Beach took the JFK Express to circumvent the stops in Brooklyn and avoid “undesirables”.
The orange M train also exists to relieve pressure from the L (Canarsie Line).
Skip stop service works. It moves trains faster and timetables showed. Washington hieghts community wanted more service and they demanded all local trains
Skip stop was a disaster. I can tell you that from experience being a Conductor at that time.
@@MrRoyale of course you won’t like like. You are a conductor and had to remember the stops during RH
@@MrRoyale it’s such a disaster that the J Z trains still use it
Before discussing why "skip stop" is bad, "Transit Talk" should have studied the Market-Frankford Line in Philadelphia so as to understand what skip stop is and isn't. NYC today runs another skip stop service on the Jamaica Line. It is the J/Z service, and it works pretty well.
If the 9 train is ever brought back, it should be converted into a rush hour peak express service that will use the center express tracks at the 1 train stations instead of the skip-stop method of bypassing the station. Similar to how I think the Z train’s service pattern should be converted into instead of being skip stop.
I can speak for West End (D) that it gets EXTREMELY crowded during rush hours (7AM~10AM, then 3PM~8PM) during the weekdays and it's almost nearly impossible to fit said crowds when it traverses between Atlantic Avenue and Bay Parkway. An extra line would definitely benefit the riders here, and when the (M) ran, trains were far more frequent and less crowded. Just a shame that they won't bring it back.
Edit:
Brown (M) didn't operate at all on the weekends, and it ran between Delancy St-Essex and Metropolitan Avenue; if I remember correctly. Weekend crowds were far less than the weekday ones.
The M was a low ridership route to the point where there are other ways for West End service, including installing two new switches south of 36th Street and swapping the D and R/W over there, increasing the frequency over there.
All five routes on a Central Park West line didn't run at the same time. The diamond shaped routes back then ran doing Rush Hours only. You got to know your history. Back then it made sense.
This former New Yorker just subed 👍🏽👍🏽
The removal of all rush hour service was a problem for the MTA.
I understand the reason for the service changes in order to streamline services, but there is a way to reintroduce this.
At the moment, all we really have is the Z Nassau st Express operated during peak hours as a skip stop service along the Broadway elevated and JAMAICA elevated.
No center track between ENY and Suphin Blvd.
One way to improve this line is improve the service hours.
It only operates One hour during the morning and evening weekdays.
This is ridiculous.
The old K line operated from 6am to 10 am...245pm to 7pm.
Also,the K ran local from ENY to 57th st..covering local stations along the Broadway elevated, while J and M were Express.
The new route,as the Z,could serve as a rush hour connector between the southern division (95th st) to the Eastern Divisions ENY subway complex.
This could restore service between Brooklyn and the Nassau st loop,and give assistance to the 4th Ave local service.
The restoration of Broadway Brooklyn Express service via the J would reduce run time skipping 8 stations..
Like the older service, the J would operate A B skip stop between ENY and Jamaica.
However, if push comes to shove,the J could be through routed back to Brooklyn via 4th ave...while the Z ends at Chambers st.
The Broad st terminal might be a bottle neck, but the quick turnaround shown there makes this a "maybe problematic"..situation if something goes wrong.
I'm more inclined to see the Z become a Short line route for quick turn around along the Broadway elevated and Nassau st subway..
At least there will be five minute waiting between Broad st..or Chambers to ENY core network..
8 to 10 minutes waits to JAMAICA.
During Midday, the Z will operate a 10 minute headways, and J at 10.
Services will potentially be every 5 minutes at all stop stations.
The (8) designation was last used for the last remnant of the 3rd Ave El between 3rd Ave - 149 St and Gun Hill Road on the White Plains Line wich was demolished in 1973.
Planning rapid transit lines is a tall order and it requires more than one head to complete the job. This is what I like about TransitTalk NYC. Also, I like that rail Vansnookneragen map that you showed in your show. It is more comprehensive that the subway map.
Also Rockaway Park Shuttle in the summer weekend from 9am to 9pm run till Labor Day between Rockaway Park and Rockaway Blvd.
I don’t know almost anything about the nyc subway, even though, i watched it entirely, great video dude!
Same
I live in brooklyn and honestly this was really interesting. Nice video bro
I think they should refurbish the Port Morris branch up in the Bronx and bring service back.
I agree with you about the Brown *M", the "R" and "V" lines.
The first problem is the unreliable and infrequent "R" line. So the "M" offered another option partially. Except it should have gone to 95th Street instead of the West End line with the "D".
The only thing I would say more about the F/V is a peak direction express can come out of the F line south of Church Avenue. Although this would be good for passengers south of the line, the demand is on the B and Q lines. But splitting them up even justify having an express.
They still run "Skip-Stops" on the J in Brooklyn.
It's unfortunate that they don't use the express track often between Junction and Myrtle
Yup, during rush hour.
MTA Operations and Planning: not only do they try to give each line a yard for equipment, crew schedules also play into. I once was part of a union report on "cab time", spent physically on the train. D,F,N trains are 1 1
Sorry, some lines are 11/2 hour one way trips x4, for an 8hr day. The M replaced the very poor performing V. Now its one of those 1 1\2 hr runs.(Midnight local A trains 207/ FRk are a 2 hr, 4min run "scraping the wall"
Excellent Review on the fromer MTA Subways routes. But the H train can be the revibe Far-RockBeach Line !!
Interesting there was an “8” train that ran in the bronx on third ave from gun hill to 149 hub (current bx41+ bus). It even used to run down 3rd ave in manhattan, but that manhattan part was demolished in the 50s. The bronx section was eventually demolished as well in the 70s. If you see an old map you will see the 8 train
Original 7 train between Flushing Main Street to Times Sq-42 St (Also I would like the V train on The Queens Blvd Lines in Express Service, then go local to 2 Av and extended to Essex St.)
The volume on the Culver line doesn't support weekend express
After 1968, there was a different K Peak Direction service between 57th Street and 168th Street in Jamaica (Local in Manhattan), It was to provide service between Midtown and the Jamaica Line after the B was extended to Washington Heights, 168th Street. The K and the JJ provided Skip Stop service. In 1973 it was cut back to Eastern Parkway/Broadway Junction. Service ended in 1976, having skip stop on the Jamaica line eliminated (Until the J/Z skip stop service was introduced)
Between 1976 and the introduction of the Z train, there was still skip stop service on the J train line. There was "A" stations and "B" stations, as well as A/B stations for the morning rush hours. "A" J Trains made A stations, and "B" J trains made the other stops.
@@michaelsherrell6389 So in the 1988 the Z train was created to reduce confusion with the services right
Didn't the KK have Atlantic Ave (Before it was renovated) as a terminal.
The train to the plane just wasn't worth it because it was a skip-stop service, you'd get stuck behind an A all the way to Howard Beach. The MTA could never possibly sell that to the public.
If you really wanted a worthwhile express to JFK, the best (expensive) option would be for the LIRR to restore service thro the junction at Rego park and run trains from Penn to a center platform at Howard Beach. That would be some real speed.
On that tangent, there was a time when the LIRR tracks down to Howard beach also connected to the tracks under Atlantic Ave.
I think they would extend the k to Brighton beach via the Broadway Lafayette and the bridge and Brighton local to Brighton beach