Why Staten Island Doesn't Have a Subway
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- Опубліковано 6 жов 2024
- Staten Island's lack of a subway system can be attributed to a complex interplay of historical, geographical, and logistical factors. Unlike other boroughs of New York City, Staten Island's separation by waterways, primarily the Upper New York Bay, creates a significant geographical barrier. The island's population density and development patterns historically differed from the rest of the city, leading to less immediate demand for a subway system. Additionally, the construction of a subway line would involve substantial costs, logistical challenges related to tunneling beneath waterways, and potential disruption to existing infrastructure. Instead, Staten Island primarily relies on an extensive network of buses, ferries, and railways connecting it to the rest of New York City.
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As a native Staten Islander, you missed a very important part of this story... Staten Island basically consists of solid rock and marshes... neither would be easy or cost effective to build subway lines... the North Shore and South Beach lines are worthy of their own episodes... and then you have Robert Moses and the saga of the Greenbelt... thousands of people were forced from their homes and a thriving beach resort were destroyed for a highway that was never built....another great video... thank you!
"Subway" in this instance is just a euphemism for rail rapid transit connected to and part of the NY Subway system, not that it would be literally underground except for the tunnel portion on the SI side. Any subway extension to SI would include taking over the current SIR as well as a service to St. George as SIR currently provides.
Actually “solid rock” isn’t a particular problem for tunnelling - sand is however a massive problem.
New York has been digging a tens of miles long water supply tunnel hundreds of feet under Manhattan.
Ah, yet another aspect of NY that Moses fucked up for absolutely no reason.
The problems were aren't technical at all. Tunnels are dug through worse conditions all the time. It's down to mindless politiking nothing more... Spent that money when "I'M UP FOR RE-ELECTION? I CAN'T DO THAT!" And if you suggest it, you get labelled a socialist... It's a sickening poisonous cycle that swamps everything in America...
Those abandoned highways made a lot of staten islanders childhoods! That was the hangout spot
Before the Verrazano Bridge was opened in the 1960s, connecting it with Brooklyn, Staten Island was sparsely populated. An opportunity existed for the bridge to carry subway lines, but that was not given serious consideration. The Bridge caused Staten Island's population to bloom, but the opportunity for a cost-effective connection was lost.
A really, really stupid move by the leadership at the time.
@@SamanthaIreneYTube You can thank Robert Moses. Notoriously pro-car, anti-public transit. (Ironically, he never learned to drive.) _The Power Broker_ by Robert Caro goes into great detail on his influence on the city.
@@alexhajnal107Excellent book.
There was supposed to be a freight line running from near Owls Head underground to SI but it ran out of money just after preliminary construction.
So true
Why can't they build a train over the varanzano
It’s not the forgotten borough. Its the borough that the rest of the city doesn’t claim. They are like the step-borough of the city!
Without the Verrazano it’s the country
We wish we weren’t part of this city or state
@@talljohn5350 When I was a kid & looked at a map SI always looked like it should be part of NJ
What are you doing Step-Borough? - Rest of NY's buroughs.
Like most native Staten Island residents, I love living in Florida!
When I was a high schooler (early 90's) the kids from SI would take the ferry to downtown Manhattan so they were "affectionately" called "boat people" or FOB (Fresh Off the Boat).
Lol you crazy
I was briefly a Staten Island-Manhattan high school ferry commuter (Stuyvesant, before I dropped out!)
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Typical ignorant bullying by the supposed smart progressive folks.....
Sounds pretty mean......what do you call different ethnic folks?
When Staten Island became part of New York City in 1899, the agreement included that the fare for the Staten Island Ferry remain at the cost of the subway token of five cents. When growing up in New York, my friend and I would make a point of taking the Staten Island ferry since where else could you take a water cruise for just a nickle.
Having lived on S.I. I get the joke. I would often tell people that I've never had the desire to go on an ocean cruise because I went on one everyday while commuting to work.
According to what I've heard, and this may be just urban legend because I've never read the city charter, but in the consolidation of NYC in 1898, there was a stipulation that there must be "free & easy access to all boroughs". This existed between all the other 4 boroughs because if you wanted to cross from Manhattan to Brooklyn or the Bronx, you could just walk over the bridge and that was free, and from Brooklyn to Queens you didn't need a bridge. You didn't have to pay for a subway or ferry. But from Staten Island, unless you were going to swim, you always had to pay to get to another borough, even if it was five cents for a ferry ride. That's why the ferry was made free, I guess about 20 something years ago. Up to that time the fare had been raise to a quarter, but you only paid one way.
It's free
Not funny
@@timjolly9998nobody said it was funny wut
Staten Island is never forgotten. We can still get a Subway system over there. Build another bridge next to the Verrazzano. Twin Bridges baby!! Put some tracks on it. Connect the R Train to the SIRT. Boom .. done.
Staten Island is very small population wise compared to the other city boroughs. Remember that most all of the subways were built by private companies back in the day, it was quite apparent to them that a sufficient ridership to pay for a tunnel just didn't exist and was unlike to happen for some time into the future. Brooklyn was a city of a million people many of whom traveling into Manhattan for work. At the time that Greater NY was established at the end of the 19th century much of Richmond was farm land and a collection of small villages connected to the ferry terminal by various trolley lines and the Staten Island railroad system that was built by the B&O RR to support its dock operations on the island. Due to changes in ship technology, i.e. container ships, this area, like the Hudson River piers in Manhattan and the port facilities in Brooklyn, have fallen into only limited use or have been abandoned completely. There is actually a railway bridge that connects the island to the mainland railways in NJ. I don't think it is used very much. There really isn't much of a market to connect SI to Brooklyn and the tunnel to connect to Manhattan would be crazy long and more crazy expensive. Money would be better spent on developing tram lines into the interior communities on the island. The ferry service is very good and achieves about the same average speed as most of the subways over the same distance, it has the advantage of no intermediate stops. These ferrys are very large and hold over a thousand passengers and operate about every 15-20 minutes during rush hours and pretty frequently during the daytime and the connections to rail lines at either end are pretty convenient, the ferry is actually free. the ferry ride takes about 20 minutes and is way more pleasant than riding a crowded subway or commuter train. people actually ride the ferry for fun.
Well stated. That rail bridge does see a bunch of use because Howland Hook terminal is on SI. It's not as busy as Elizabeth/Newark obviously, but it is a critical piece of transport infrastructure and they haul trains out of there regularly.
When my parents took me to visit as a young teenager that is something that we did. We rode the ferry over. Checked it out for half an hour, then we were city bound just like that.
Utter non sense and clearly a lack of knowledge of NYC history. First off when Richmond county joined as the 5th borough of the City of New York, it was guaranteed by NYC politicians a subway would be built connecting the borough with rest of the city. This was the deal but unfortunately ‘Boss Tweed’ politics played a role later in time. It had nothing to do as you state above with decent ferry service which to this day is joke. Neither with Staten Island low population as the rest of the city itself had a low population as well with farm land. The bottom line why Richmond county / Staten Island doesn’t have a subway connection is because of politics. There were 3 attempts to build a subway connection via Brooklyn 4th avenue line at 59st station that can be seen. ( this presentation is correct in stating) The second is further along the 4th avenue line R line that was engineered to expand to 4 tracks to 95th street and then continue to tubes to Richmond county. Third, the culver line- F line was built with express tracks designed to feed under Ft Hamilton parkway IND second system to Staten Island tubes. All these attempts were stopped either by dirty politics or the Great Depression and World War 2. None of these reasons was stated in this ‘It’s history’ presentation and not accurate at all.
Staten Island is more comparable to Nassau County or Eastern Queens. The most suburban borough by far.
The rail terminal is in Greenville Jersey City it’s still in use as of 2022 the last I ran a tug in the harbor. In the early 00’s I worked for the 3rd oldest tugboat co on Staten Island who has the contract to move rail car barges from Greenville to Brooklyn as well as taking coco bean cars into Redhook Brooklyn piers.
You forgot Robert Moses built the Verrozzanno Bridge without a subway link. The 4th Avenue Subway below 59th Street was built with 4 tracks with only 2 in use. The Manhattan Bound side has a false wall with 2 tracks behind it. That's why Bay Ridge Avenue and 77th Street Stations have no poles. The platform would be the Manhattan bound express track. If you look under the platform you could see the track bed and also when it crosses the Bay Ridge Branch you can see the 2 never used tracks. There's also a turnout south of 59th Street to the planned tunnel on Senator and 68th Street. The tunnel south of 95th Street also goes to 100 street but it's not long enough to make a turn around. There was a planned station at 101st Street. The 2 tracks used on the 4th Avenue Subway are located on the Westside of the Avenue with the 2 unused tracks occupying the Eastside of the Avenue.
How can there be two hidden tracks? Wouldn't they be under the buildings on the avenue? I
There should have been at tracks as part of the bridge, but Moses was a car nut
That EVIL man...!
@@stitcher4729 because, as said, the two tracks in service are actually more on the west side of the avenue, which explains why 86th Street has a second exit on the southwest corner of 87th Street and 4th Avenue only and it’s actually directly over the platform, somehow. So the unused tracks are still under the street but not accessible.
But at 65th st you can see the southbound R go thru under the street/over the railroad cut and it is right on the edge most track. I'm trying to think if the west side of 4th Avenue at 86th is wider but just cannot picture it. alas, I don't live around there now but if I ever find myself in the area gain I'll try to remember to look. Just can't believe I never heard this before when the aborted tunnel to SI has been written about so often. Maybe street view will help!@@HesJustSteven
I didn't hear you clarify that Staten Island does have a Subway, just not one that connects to the other 4 boros. It is an Isolated 1 line system that goes down the literal middle of the borough. Lol Staten is so isolated they left it out of GTA IV - but that game even included north Jersey lol
He didn't mention it, but it's on the graphic starting at 4:03
Technically not a subway but a rail line. I can remember conductors on Staten Island Rapid Transit.
Because Staten Island doesn’t have a Subway, they have a railway. A Subway is more so defined as being underground.
@@mannyislikethat Much of the NYC "subway" is on elevated tracks once you get out of Manhattan. Subway these days just means "heavy rail rapid transit" in the NYC context.
@@andrewweitzman4006 subway means. sub-way , sab level, half way or substitute way, it does not matter if its under or above, its still a sub-way a sub level or a substitute way.!
When we crossed the border into the USA from Mexico many years ago. We left a lot of Burros back home. They are also forgotten.
😅
I was stationed on Staten Island. We always had fun traveling back and forth on the ferry.
I live in Oakwood on Staten Island & would take the ferry 99 times out of 100 over the subway. It's a peaceful, beautiful ride. And St. George isn't really a subway station.
The Italians who fled NYC don't want the connection
Yeah, Big Paulie had a house on Todt hill. A miniature White House It was bugged from top to bottom....
Yo...youse guys are right Vinnie and the gang don't wants da crime coming into the south shore and mess up the mansions and stuff plus all the traffic and stuff will gets the whole quality of live. Outa there
Hahaha
Part of the design of the light rail from Hoboken to Bayonne is for it to expand from Bayonne over the redesigned Bayonne Bridge to Staten Island giving rail commuter access to several path stations into Manhattan
Really? I did not know that. Interesting.
You can thank R. Moses for that! In the 1960's he killed a proposal to extend the BMT 4th avenue line over the Verrazano Bridge into Staten Island to connect up with the SIRT.
VERRAZZANO
NOT VERRAZANO
@@RonGersteinthe the VZ. BRIDGE AKA THE gangplank open. SI. IN 1964
As someone who's grown up across the river in NJ, I say its mostly NIBMY, but as the demographics change on SI (and they already are), I think it could be revisited. As far as the distance across the Narrows, we definately have the technology today. Consider that San Franciso's BART subway Transbay tunnel is 3.6 miles. The Verrazanno Bridge is only 2.5 miles in total. But cost would most likely be the kiss of death in this case.
Not really NIMBY on Staten Island.
More of cost plus other 4 boroughs get priority plus no land available.
The tunnel shown on a map in this video, the Island side had little in the area the line would come up out of the ground at. Now there is so much development already finished and occupied, there is no room for anything.
The old Beach line is gone having homes built over it and it was removed to make way for the VZ Bridge toll plaza. The North Shore line is simply abandoned, most of the land is still there and usable but too many factors deny rebuilding it.
Geographically it would be easier to connect to New Jersey than the rest of NYC. When they built the recent Goethals beidge between NW Staten Island and Elizabeth, NJ they supposedly left room for possible passenger rail link.
@@geardo3635 It sounds like a missed opportunity to have designed the Narrows bridge without a rail link that could connect to the SIR. When they replaced the old Champlain bridge here in Montreal, they ensured there were rails on the center span. It enabled the first leg of the REM to be built without a massive expenditure for either a tunnel or new rail bridge
NYC’s GDP each year is on par with Poland’s or Switzerland’s. It can happen
Alot of nimby in Northwest England UK 🇬🇧. Plus the fact everything here is London centric.
@@geardo3635 God help the people of Linden,Elizabeth, South Amboy ect if they open a passenger line into any of those towns... the crime rate will triple overnight... the ghetto trash that has taken over most of SI will be on their doorsteps...
Staten Island does have a rapid rail transit line, and connects to the SI Ferry. The ferry carries about 70,000 riders per day which is the realm of rapid rail transit line capacity.
Only on the Brooklyn side of S.I. The Jersey side of S.I is abandoned. Even the Stadium Station was closed due to lack of ridership & it was only one stop from ST. GEORGE TERMINAL 🚇
It almost had a subway when they were building the BMT's 4th Avenue Line down to Bay Ridge 95 Street, which was NOT meant to be a terminal station for the current (R) formerly # 2 and (RR) trains. The tunnel itself extends further down 4th Avenue to 101 Street to connect to a NEVER BUILT underwater tunnel under the Narrows to Staten Island designed and built to take over the South Beach Branch near its Grasmear station, and take over the line to its Wentworth Avenue terminal. At the time it would have been a very different line had this tunnel been built, with through BMT service from Queensboro Plaza to Wentworth Avenue in Staten Island stopping at this station before proceeding to Staten Island, since this station is also the closest point to Staten Island. The SIRT had been electrified in preparation for the tunnel, and had purchased subway cars similar to the AB Standards of the BMT. Again, it was POLITICS back then that prevented Staten Island from having this subway, but its now over-saturated with very expensive $6.75 fare express buses which is clogging the highway system in NYC.
The geology of the island is also important. The north end has large igneous intrusions or sills, the south ranges from marine estuary and marshlands to clay and soil deposits.
The second issue is that Staten Island in general does not have the same density that is needed to justify a subway instead of grade level railways. Its not like they dont have a train, they just dont have the same need to bury it or incur that massive expense.
Great point.
The sealed shafts for the last si tunnel project can be seen at about 92 street, in the park off of shore road.
Nope....owls head park.
It would nice to see one of the Brooklyn subways extended to from the bay ridge area to staten Island but as you say not in this lifetime. The forgotten borough
PS I’m originally from Brooklyn
The depth they'd have to go might be impractical, the narrows have water depths that are 100 feet compared to 50 where the Holland and Lincoln tunnels go under the Hudson and they'd have to get that much deeper in a shorter distance.
@@alexkitner5356
Really that’s pretty deep
When Verrazano narrows bridge was being built, one time they were talking about building a subway to run over the bridge but that fell through
It would be very difficult to ever build a subway tunnel that connects Manhattan directly with Staten Island. There's more than 5 miles of open water across New York Harbor between the two islands. That would be an extremely long and expensive tunnel!
Brooklyn
Bart has successfully built the trans bay tube which is around the same length so I wouldn’t doubt on what kind of engineering we can do, but as for the cost to build, I would totally understand
In connecting Manhattan with Staten Island, which line would you choose, as the SIR uses BMT/IND sized equipment?! My choice would be the 2nd avenue line....
It's borough. Not burrow.
What about duplicating the construction method used for the BART system’s Transbay Tunnel between San Francisco and Oakland? It was built using 1960s technology. Today it should be easier to replicate because of more modern materials and building technologies.
Staten Island doesn't need a subway - the density isn't anything close to the other boroughs that have a need. The surface rail works just fine. Where an opportunity was blown was not connecting it via the Verrazano.
As a Staten Islander I always wondered why we didn’t have subway tunnels or something like trams since the buses always get stuck in car traffic. I hope the public transit system is improved in the future.
I don't live in NYC matter of fact I don't live in any part of America. But I always wondered why they didn't expand the subway into Staten Island Jersey Yonkers and into Long Island Nassau County etc decades ago..given the metro area has something like over 20 million people.Thats a lot of people... You would think they would really push for more public transit like in Europe and get as many cars off the road. as possible. Yes cost is a big factor but I imagine politics are involved.
we literally do near hylan blvd
@@oldgordo61Live in Texas but lived in the NYC area for college and there is connections to NJ. It’s called the PATH but honestly it’s pretty much the subway. You can use your subway card for both of them. And then there’s NJ transit which is a bigger system for the state into NYC and LIRR for Long Island folks :) Staten Island is the one left out lol
The 1934 proposed subway map shows an extension of the R train to Staten island
At owls head park in bay ridge I believe there is a stone covering where a tunnel to staten island began to be dug.
Since Staten Island has heen developed later in relation to the other boroughs I always wished the city had some kind of fund where the beautiful historic architecture that was demolished to make way for newer buildings in the older boroughs could have been more carefully disassembled and rebuilt there... think of all the lost townhouses, mid rise buildings destroyed for skyscrapers that wouldnhave been considered architectural crown jewels in any other city. It would have been insanely expensive but worth it IMHO, it essentially would have been a ready made historic district.
We also need a pedestrian/bike pathway on the Verrazzano-Narrows Bridge.
No we don't!
Naa, we need lower tolls and less subsidies of other peoples commuting services ..
@@uncomfortabletruth5915 Not everyone on Staten Island drives.
Cars are for losers.
@@laurenb359 Maybe you don't, but for those of us Staten Islanders who mostly get around by bicycle and public transportation, and don't drive it is a much needed option. Right now you can take your bike on the S53, S79 and S93 buses, which is an improvement, but they can only accommodate two bikes at a time. The only other option to get your bicycle to Brooklyn is by taking it on the ferry and then over the Brooklyn, Manhattan or Williamsburgh Bridges. For years I commuted to Brooklyn that way, it would have been great if there was an option to ride my bike on the VZ.
Thanks for sharing the amazing history of our remarkable country. There are two groups of folks in this world: There are those that love and create vs those that hate and destroy.
Idk imo, I think the problem lies with them looking down when they should be looking up. Meaning why don't they make an elevated line and run it on the Verrazano Bridge then once on the island, it can go underground. They could do Cut & Cover on the island. They don't have to bore any tunnels. Like Patco, it runs underground in Philly, then crosses the Ben Franklin Bridge and goes right back underground in Camden. Hell, the D Train crosses the Manhattan bridge then goes back underground for a while in brooklyn before rising up to elevated. This could be done the same way. Idk but to me, Running a line or two on the Verrazano Bridge from Brooklyn to the Island seems less expensive than digging a tunnel and using tubes.
Exactly! Why not?
^
THIS! Like…come on! This shouldn’t be rocket science when you can just build a railroad bridge to Staten Island, it doesn’t have to be like the Lincoln Tunnel where it was built underwater for the road ways to connect from New Jersey to New York!
Sounds good yet too much work and trouble for folks who want to be their own state...BYE!!!!!!!!!!!
I met my wife in Staten Island back in the 80's. The people that I worked with were a hoot.
As the VZ bridge is 2 levels, it could have definitely handled rail tracks. Moses definitely squashed that. Cars are better he thought.
More important than the subway line, for most SI'ers, would be an expansion of the rail service around the Island, and even connections to NJ, which are a more practical solution. Staten Island used to have a North Shore rail line. Most of the right of way still exists, along with several abandoned stations. I spoke with a city council rep some years back about the topic. She said that she also wanted to reopen the line, but their studies showed that it was no longer viable since parts of the bulkhead have disintegrated into the Kill Van Kull waterway. I really don't buy that explanation. A bulkhead could certainly be rebuilt if there was will behind a project. More likely the right of way issues are more pressing. In one area, the elevated tracks were removed for the extension of Jersey Street, part of the track was buried under waste from the abandoned Staten Island Wheel project. Maritime business that historically co-existed with the rail have squatted on the rail property and it may not be in the interest of politicians to challenge the right of the right of way. Even the still existent portions of the rail have been eyed as public park land rails-to-trails projects. Anyway, if the will to open this line were present, it would lead all the way to the Bayonne and Goethals bridges - adding a rail line to either bridge would be more practical than the Verrazano Bridge. There is even an existing railroad bridge that could be brought into service. This would enable a connection to NJ Transit or even Amtrak that could be a route to Manhattan or elsewhere.
Also, the numerous projects in the St. George hub area that have been limping along would benefit by a direct transit link to NJ.
As someone who lives on Staten Island, you only have 3 options the express bus to Manhattan with 2 buses to bay ridge R train the bus & SI rail road connecting to SI ferry By public transportation. Other then driving
Very interesting. I was born and raised in Brooklyn and always wondered why, now I know
I was Born in Elizabeth NJ it was the city that bordered Staten Island. I remember the old Gothales Bridge that connected NY and NJ , Elizabeth doesn't have a Subway either it stops in Newark NJ? I don't know why they didn't have a Subway in Elizabeth? It is not a small city I remember watching the world trade center rise over the horizon as it was being built, it was easy to see from the(former ) Bayway circle on US 1-9 . As a kid I always thought why didn't we have tunnels under the city? We did have 3 train stations NJT Elizabeth and North Elizabeth, and the now abandoned Penn Jersey station. That was a sad story how all those people died because the engineer had a heart attack and the train went into the water at an open bridge 😢. I remember riding that line with the old Diesel engine the cars had windows that opened and ceiling fans. That line didn't have power like NJT did.
Staten Island is the only borough where you can really hike and that should be kept
Where’s that exactly? 😂
@@TBrl8 the Staten Island Greenbelt
@@SuperAnimeking100yes there are some parks, but a walk in the park is not hiking in my book. Also having subway would not remove the greenbelt.
SI was the LAST borough to be populated. By the time Subway proposals rolled around Mid 20th Century, the World Wars, Robert Moses and the age of Highways rolled around and funding/priority was allocated elsewhere.
Also the Elephant-in-the-room is many residents OPPOSED adding transportation as it would cause a huge influx of residents and tall buildings kin to inner-city neighborhoods of NYC.
I lived on Staten Island for 4 years when I went to college there. I always thought they should have had one under the Verrazzano Bridge. Back then in the 90's you could also bring your car on the Staten Island ferry for 5 dollalrs.
Staten Island does so have a subway line!!! But they call it the SIR. Admittedly, it's only one line that goes out from the ferry terminal and it's all above ground. But it's still a MTA "subway" line.
I agree they need to connect it to the rest of the city, maybe by crossing the Verrazano Bridge...
while using the Verrazano bridge could be a good idea, the current bridge is unable to accommodate subway trains because of the bridge not being strong enough.
Was originally a standard rail line. It was simply converted to Rapid Transit use
@@lambo8961in all actuality, the Verrazano Bridge IS strong enough to carry two subway tracks on its lower deck; in order for the end of the 4th avenue line to be connected to it, the line would end up having to be built on a spiraling structure to achieve the necessary height for the bridge.
@@BillyMartin4Life Yeah, I know. I believe it was originally the B&O.
@@lambo8961 They could run the PATH down and into Staten Island and connect it. It would be a roundabout route going through NJ, but the whole city would be connected by train if they did that.
I’m a life time Staten Island resident, why couldn’t they run under the Verrazzano-Narrows Bridge as they did on the Brooklyn Bridge? Or have one track on either side of the bridge, of course adding new structure to the bridge, but making the new addition, state of the art design & style! I’m sure with all the new construction methods, and the great minds behind it, they can have the subway connect easily into the subway connection’s! Just use what’s available, you’ll save billions on tunnels, and put the money into the bridge and new structures!
Similar idea that is used for the PATCO trains in Philadelphia and New Jersey
Robert Moses wouldn't allow it. He was vehemently opposed to any mass transit operations.
I went to Monsignor Farrell HS from 1962 to 1965 and was a student commuter from Grasmere to Oakwood Heights. Had a weekly reduced rate ticket and rode the train to school for those three years. Now I live in upstate NY on 10 acres.
I'm from.the Bronx and I like Staten Island, I think Staten Island needs more attention JUST LIKE The Bronx, it's The Bronx & Staten Island boroughs that singled out the most, MANHATTAN, QUEENS & BROOKLYN doing very well.
Yonkers should have been a sixth Buro.
@@mikeherrera5302No, Yonkers is good where it should be, in Westchester county.
I think they want to keep certain demographics of people out of Staten Island. Just a thought 🤔
"If you ain't got a car, you ain't living here!"....
This worked in the past but won't work going forward. Too much demand for housing in the city.
Just looking at an area map, it's obvious that Staten Island (like Liberty Island) should have been part of New Jersey all along. Seems like they should make a deal with NJ Transit and PATH to bring a train over from Staten Island and use those networks to connect with Manhattan.
To get a subway, they'll need to do a lot of upzoning to make it worth the money! But I hope they will-- we need more housing here.
Keep them videos coming
Great commentary with clearly spoken English, it's refreshing to hear🇺🇸
Here in San Francisco Bay Area, we didn't build a tunnel across the San Francisco Bay. We built a tube. Sections of the tube were built above ground and sunk under water as the foundation was completed. When a section was sunk, divers connected the sections together. The tube goes from San Francisco to Oakland. I tunnel was not built to connect San Francisco to Marin County. The reason may have been the strong currents, or the fact that Marin County didn't want to pay for the connection to BART (Bay Area Transit). I believe Marin County owns the Golden Gate Bridge.
As someone from SI another reason why it wouldn’t happen is because of the fear of over population and over development like the rest of the boroughs cause I was told when they build the Verrazano a lot of people opposed it that’s why they created the greenbelt to prevent overdevelopment between that and cost of building it
But it is already over-populated, isn't it? I would think there are no places left to build, but the upside would be that SI residents could get into Manhattan much easier.
@@bobbysands6923 it’s not so when they build the Verrazano activist and residence came up this proposal called the Staten Island green belt basically a bunch parks and they city is not allowed to build on it. That’s why the middle of the island is nothing forestland underdeveloped land SI is the only borough that isn’t over developed and its least populated of the 5 the majority of the Staten islanders aren’t living on top of each other like the rest of rest of the city a good portion of Staten Island residents live on the north shore since it’s closest to the city and more convenient side of the island but no it’s actually not overpopulated compared to the other boroughs
Yes it would make easier for people to commute however that would cause a second wave of people moving over SI cause that’s what happened when they open the bridge a lot of people from Brooklyn migrated over to Staten Island
Probably not much feasible real estate on Staten Island to develop. A large portion of the island is too marshy correct? @@bobbysands6923
@@Wavylikedaviee A shift to urbanization and greater density is inevitable. The demand for housing in the city is very high, so it would make sense to look to SI as the "next frontier."
I miss the old intro music.. love your shows. They are filled with amazing information .. thank you!!
technically Staten Island dose have a subway since it’s rolling stock consists of R44 and R211 modified subway cars.
I was born in Staten Island and lived in St. George on Ward Hill. ❤
Tottenville sounds like a British location.
Staten Island railway is a subway and it uses subway trains, so this doesn’t make sense
It’s a railroad using subway cars modified to FRA requirements.
They should just dig a small tunnel northwest toward Bayonne and then connect it to some of the NJT services there. At least then you could just catch one of the NJT trains into Penn, or the PATH from Hoboken.
The HBLR plan was to go on the Bayonne Bridge and file the 440 alignment then get on Richmond Ave medians to connect to Etyingville on the SIR. Somehwat incorporating both Hudson Bergen Light Rail and Staten Island Light Rail
Most of HBLR should have been a PATH line and the PATH line would terminate in St. George in the same terminal a hypothetical subway service would. @@TheRandCrews
This is interesting, but note that the PATH from Jersey City, Newark, and Hoboken they were able to build a NJ subway into NY. Of course they have higher density on the river compared to Staten Island which never got the equivalent population density. If they successfully built a subway to Staten Island then they probably today would have higher density housing than it ever experienced. As it stands the homes dominate the Island, not high rises.
I was born and raised in NYC, (over 45 years of living there), yet I've only been to Staten Island twice!
My guess is.......there's better places to get a sandwich in Staten Island, no need for one. Perhaps I should watch the video first.
Heh heh yeah if we talking sandwiches u damn right
The best opportunity for a subway to Staten Island was when Robert Moses built the Verazzano Bridge. But of course he vetoed it since he ran the authority responsibie for the crossing.
Now, if the CCP were to take over New York City and make it a part of the People's Republic then Staten Island would not only get one subway to the rest of the city but at least three.
It actually could have been built and the railway could have run over the Verrazano between Brooklyn and Staten Island, but Robert Moses opposed Railways running over the Bridges he built, including the Verrazano Bridge, thus no rapid transit connecting Brooklyn and Staten Island
Wished they made one. It be such a Convenience.
I grew up on Staten Island in the 40’s and 50’s. There used to be a ferry between Brooklyn and Staten Island. It thrived until the Verrazano Bridge was built. The island was very rural until the bridge was built. Then housing costs rose exponentially my family moved to New Jersey
HAPPY NEW YEARS AND THANK YOU
The Staten island subway should connect to Elizabeth, EWR, and Newark in NJ
You don't need an expensive subway here in Staten Island. There is an above ground and unused freight line that runs from Port Richmond all the way to Mariners Harbor. They only need to tunnel from Port Richmond to the Stupid Island ferry terminal or Borough Hall. They can then extend the line from the Harbor all the way to industrial parks where AMZN has their warehouses.
ALL that was mentioned was a connection between Brooklyn and Staten Island; NOT a "Staten Island Subway" per se....
If Staten Island doesn’t have a subway then what is the SIR (Staten Island Railroad)
The Staten Island Railroad was built first in the mid 1800's as a freight and passenger railroad, with the last portions of it built in the 1880's, under Baltimore & Ohio Management. (The SIR became a subsidary of the B&O in 1899, later the Chessie System until 1971.) Because it was built as a railroad with an expansion into Elizabeth Port, NJ, via the Arthur Kill Rail Bridge, this system was never intended to connect with the New York Subway. Historically, the Staten Island Railroad was very similar to the Long Island Railroad. It was a commuter railroad that had a connection with the National Freight Rail Network and handled freight trains.
It's a train service on the ground if above then it's elevated if below ground then subway.
Because Robert Moses was so anti-transit, the Verrazzano Narrows bridge was not built to support rail. Now, extending a Path line from Jersey City to SI would work, especially if it could use the Bayonne Bridge. Even if it couldn't, the Kill Van Kull is narrower than the "Narrows" and would be easier to traverse.
Robert Moses had nothing to do with the lack of a subway.
@DTD110865 yea yea , we read ur same comment 40 times. Stop spamming
@DTD110865 yea yea , we read ur same comment 40 times. Stop spamming
@DTD110865 yea yea , we read ur same comment 40 times. Stop spamming
@@mikeherrera5302 It's your own fault if you can't take the truth!
Staten Island has a subway, but it’s completely above ground. Actually it’s on ground like metro north railroad. It’s called the Staten Island rapid transit. SIRT. Runs north south from the ferry terminal at St. George to tottenville. If a subway link would ever be built it would be to use the Verrazano bridge to Brooklyn. Not Manhattan.
Why "subway"? Take over a couple lanes of The Verrazzano-Narrows Bridge for a rapid transit line between Staten Island and Brooklyn. The double-deck bridge carries 13 lanes of Interstate 278: seven on the upper level and six on the lower level. Using two lanes for rapid transit would actually carry MORE people than what the single-occupant automobiles using them today.
You might note that the subways lines into Brooklyn and Queens generally climb above ground onto elevated structures but another consideration is south brooklyn has relatively high groundwater and tunnels would require continuous pumping to keep them moderately dry. I believe that some of the Queens lines were subwayed in the 70s and 80s but the Bronx lines are mostly all elevated. Much of Queens is swampy too.
What about the proposal to extend NJ Transit light rail to Staten Island? Much shorter crossing and more likely to happen in less than 90 years.
It is a little complicated. In order for rail lines to cross state lines, they need to be a certain class by the FRA (Federal RR Administration). Subways do not generally meet this designation (including NYCTA). PATH does (Port Authority Trans Hudson), which is why it runs from Manhattan to NJ, but it is an interstate class railroad and thus has special license and capability to do so. If the Port Authority of NYNJ was so inclined, they could connect NJ to SI via Bayonne or Perth Amboy or Newark via Elizabeth, but who knows. Would be nice to see for sure! The other option would be NJ Transit building a light rail system to SI. But again, who knows. They haven't expressed too much interest in doing it sadly.
@@njunderground82I saw some proposals with like Staten Island Light Rail proposal on Richmond Ave from Ettingvill station then get on the 440 across the Bayonne Brudge to connect to the HBLR there or flipped with it being extended to the SIR.
Why not extend the PATH subway to Staten Island through Bayonne and over the Bayonne bridge? The subway and the bridge are both owned by the Port Authority. One might even consider joining it up with the SIRT.@@njunderground82
PATH is supposedly built to railroad specifications for this reason, partially at least. As we know PATH rolling stock is not though as they are nearly identical in specifications to NYCTA A Division rolling stock. @@njunderground82
The bayonne bridge was originally designed for auto traffic, but with provisions for adding an upper deck for rail. However, these provisions were exploited in order to raise the roadway to allow bigger ships to travel under the bridge. So it is no longer possible to have a rail crossing on a separate deck. Former governors Christie and Cuomo both hated rail.
In 1962, the Governor of NY attempted to sever the bridges to Staten Island, so that Staten Island would float out to sea and become a bird sanctuary.
If that’s true…..that would’ve been perfect considering how half of Staten Island wants to act in general…..like birds
Terra cotta on the George Washington Bridge?
Never noticed that.
Was it removed when the lower level was added or something?
He may be referring to the original plans for the towers to be sheathed in stone-face. During construction the public found that they liked the bare steel towers better so the powers that be decided to leave them as-is.
The terra-cotta should be covering the Manhattan cable anchorage....
@@RailRideI read that Case Gilbert, the consulting architect, wanted the towers encased in concrete and faced with granite; the Port Authority turned him down, citing unnecessary expenses.
It was thought out. They wanted to keep the "inner city" out. You needed a car to get there.
"They" being just ONE person,an automobiliated individual named Robert Moses.
I think there should be more rail lines within Staten Island and no connectivity to the city. They can all converge on St George. Having a faster ferry would help tremendously. It takes about 25 mins from end to end. If they could have a ferry that can get you to the South Ferry in 10-15 mins that would be a game changer.
A train on the Verrazano Bridge isn't the worst idea either. It's sad that this wasn't put into play because the demand is there.
The extreme winds would be an issue
@@kampoutkidExtreme winds aren't an issue with the Manhattan Bridge,and that one's a helluva lot older and much more heavily used..
VERRAZZANO
NOT VERRAZANO
The photo of the London Metro at Trafalgar Square is an interesting addition to the New York are photos.
That excuse for its geographic location digging a tunnel is BS .. if they can build a tunnel such as a subway tunnel for the aqueduct to connect from Bay Ridge and done it twice after hurricane Sandy destroyed the tunnel it’s can be built the city and mta doesn’t want it and here’s why they would lose money in revenue that they currently get from the express bus running. And the decrease revenue from the Verrazano bridge from people traveling to and from Brooklyn.
Staten Island was also more small-town country like for a long, long, time.
Flight almost over my house at the beginning.
If you need any drone work, i’ll be happy to do “most” of it on the strength. Thanks for the content.
They could do a bridge like we have in Michigan...the MACKINAC or (MACKINAW) Bridge spans 5 miles across to our Upper Peninsula.
Now maybe go on to why NYC has no circular subways from Brooklyn to Queens to the Bronx to Manhattan.
Not passenger rail but an interesting project I've heard is a twin tube railroad tunnel
from Brooklyn to Staten Island for container freight trains. That would be massive!
The tunnels would have to be thirty feet wide at least to have double stack trains going
through them. Like so many others, is it really going ahead? It would be fun to see!
The current name for this is the cross Harbor freight movement project. FYI.
I’ve lived in New York my entire life and I’ve only been on Staten Island once (I don’t count driving through it). Some amazing hidden gems but it reminds me more of Long Island than the city
Exactly!!! I'm a native Long islander, and what you stated is absolutely correct 💯💯💯
I love this City and Staten Island too.
If the subway was to extend to Staten Island, the best lines would be the 1 from South Ferry and the R from 95th St.
Actually Staten Island has the SIRR (Staten Island Railway) From the New York City Subway so Staten Island does have a subway but most people ignore it
Staten Island has no subway for two reasons 1 it's too far under water to get there and 2 most of the island is landfill
Hey Ya'll,
accrossing Waterways is everywhere a big financial problem to public network systems worldwide.
Please have a look over the Atlantic Ocean to Germany's biggest northetn City of Hamburg and ask yourself the question, why the Hamburg elevated subway does not have a directly connection to southern Hamburg subburbs?
Yes it is history, too.
The heritage subway system had been eastablished in the more northern parts of subburbs in 1912 when the circle line had been completed together with some branch lines into the east and north of the big Elbe River Stream.
There were plans to build a subway line to the southern subburbs in the mid 1950's after the end of WW2 but the big financial problems let built up a onle a bridge to one Elbe Island but not more than that, the re-building of the during the war demadged subway lines had first priority. Still round about 70 years later there are plans to jump with one subway line accross the Elbe River to the Grassbrook Island and maybe later to the southern subburbs, too?
Happy new year and greeting from Germany,
Ingo R.
I don't understand why they can't do that along side the varranzano bridge . The Ted Williams tunnel in Boston starts in South Boston and ends across the harbor in East Boston at Logan airport Obviously new yorks harbor is alot busier, but those same container ships of fuel and etc cross over it to get to their port or pier. This tunnel was shipped up to Boston from a metal plant in Baltimore in 12 section immersive tubles and is just as long as the famed Varranzano
I need to plan a trip to Staten Island and ride the train from St George to Tottenville. I only rode the ferry and back to Wall St. Good video thanks for the history lesson. Anybody know hoe much it cost to ride the train out there? 😅
Oh my God!
Menon skills are on a whole different level, making everything they touch exceptional. His strategy changed my life
Thanks for another great video
The lower deck of the Verrzano Bridge was meantthe carry a subway line from Bay Ridge to St Gearge but Robert Moses killed that idea with his political dominance and self serving interests.
The Euro-Tunnel under the English Channel is 31 miles long, so I don't think the engineering is beyond the possible.
While the subway may be dated to 1904, elevated railroads had existed for decades. Ignoring the earlier history is like ignoring the elevated lines in Chicago and only looking at the underground portions. A full history of rail system is fascinating with a special footnote for the subway under Atlantic Avenue in Brookly in the 1840s.
With the example of Path and the threatened extension of the 7 train New Jersey, it's possible to imagine a connection via New Jersey rather than Brooklyn.
I lived in SI before the bridge. It was heaven.