Well, my players used to be mad about sandboxing against nameless and expendable proxies with the puppetmasters totally unseen. When i tried to throw them a bone, sending someone with more knowledge, they just killed the guy. Involving the players in a game of shadows is tricky.
Great video, Guy!!! As the "basic template" for spy personalities in my games, I've more often referred directly to "Solomon" from Indiana Jones (played by John Rhyes-Davies)... as the quintessential BELIEVABLE type of all-purpose Character for exactly "hiding in plain sight" that any true secret agent would need. OH sure, the worlds of 007 or Maxwell Smart and the lot are fine, but it's just a bit "questionable" to have your spies larking about in all -black suits and expensive super-cars... The dubiously flamboyant guy who can improvise an unexpected punch to the face through a news-paper, scream-sheet, or even by requesting an enemy agent in pursuit to hold the money for a bar-room bet and stall for the PC's is a MUCH more fun, believable, and (more specifically) noticeable persona to inject into the roll. BUT (of course) I'm not the only perspective on the "spy game"... for which many are probably just as happy. ;o)
"Being spy is actualy boring job" Well sure if you're talking about real spies. I mean the James Bond types: flirting with Ivana Foolaround in Monte Carlo, breaking into Dr. Evils suite, finding the secret base in Waziristan and leading a highly trained group of Canadian Mounties on an assault on the fortress, that sort of thing.
I actually made my Players once start their game out like this. I sent an agent of an evil organization to manipulate them right out the gate, after their first quest. None of them questioned it, because I made them think I was an inexperienced GM, so they thought it was just poor writing from me when I said “I’m an agent of the king, and I heard you’re a band of promising individuals.” This let them drop their guard, and when I revealed, after they had set in motion a chain of events that fell the entire kingdom, I had the agent come out as the big bad who used them as a scapegoat. This flipped their expectations of my campaign immediately. That soft little government stooge turned out to be a level 20 Rouge who ended up killing one of the PC’s because they underestimated him after he showed his true colors. This set a tone that for them, this would be a campaign that they couldn’t use their intuition on, and that they’d instead need to be more cautious and clever about how they went about clearing their name and stopping this bastard who manipulated them into taking the blame. Luckily, the player who died didn’t get upset, and instead became even more interested, because he had a chance to reset and make a character more suited for a campaign like this.
I needed this upload more than I realized. I play a Khajiit Rogue (Agent), a member of the Penitus Oculatus and he's undercover among a band of adventures. He's a former slave to the dunmeri and has made his life mission to free the dunmeri slaves and end the tribunals.
Recently had in a campaign that after our initial recruiting, the PC was having trouble figuring out my character, the only Ranger on a pirate ship of thieves and a couple tanks. I roleplay a few sessions and we start to see a World War 1-esk situation setting up. I actually plan on having Ranger written off and start a new one. DM said no, wait, he's got a plan. I had maid my Ranger with a soldier background... DM used that and had my character drafted to be a spy. It has proved fun.
Before running an undercover game I have found (from a serious mistake) be sure, probably with a session 0,that everyone knows that the type of game is Fleming or LaClaire.
yes, long age when the first all espionage titles like top secret came out I tried running a serious LeClaire style game, took two sessions before I had to kill it because the player wanted Bond,years later I started a Bond style that the players morphed into a more serious game in the style of LeClaire.
When my players are asked to drive a truck they spend the next 20 minutes asking questions. On the other hand, it is fun to have obvious spys watching them just to make them nervous. BTW Love the accent. Is that supposed to be American?
I tried playing a spy game once. The group ran into a series of bad rolls at the very beginning of the first mission. All the characters looked like idiots and we just don't want to play anymore.
You should try Vampire the Masquerade. It's highly political, while still horror and dealing with "being a vampire and turning into a monster". Great fun
Kinda depends on the particulars... First, it's worth pointing out that NO plot or sub-plot has a purpose in the game if it isn't REVEALED at some point. That's important so you can "brief" any Player who approaches with the intent of a PC-spy scenario in a Campaign. Then it's a matter of picking around the various powers for that PC to invest in, take sides with or against, independent of the Party... AND due note: "Independent" is exactly that. It doesn't require the PC act against the Party specifically, just without the rest of them involved or weighed on any particular thinking... or choice of ally, etc... Mechanically, it generally runs by the same principles as the rest of the PC's, BUT with the exception of "clandestine" information... Since there will be some things this one Player will have to communicate with the GM and the other Players shouldn't be privileged to know about it until "Revelation"... Then it helps to create a secret messaging between GM and Player... I've passed notes under the table, myself. Folded and laid "sniper style" messages for the GM and for a certain Player to find... practiced and trained for "cantor", which is a method of hand signals, symbols, and simple improvised material signs and things for making messages... even "double speak" has been a thing. It takes practice to get to a level of functionality, but in application, it's worth it... IF you're actually into that sort of thing. Finally, just because a certain PC is also a Spy or Double Agent, that's not necessarily to the detriment of the Party. It doesn't have to entail any betrayal between Players... It certainly CAN include those sorts of things IF the rest of the Table isn't going to rage-quit and start bludgeoning each other with over-loaded bags of dice on such a revelation... SO some dubious account for sensibility and "reading your Players" will help. ;o)
You can see my comment about our PC agent above. I was mindful when crafting the plots for the character that the character's choices must not be preordained, in order to preserve agency & avoid the perception of railroading. Having the character's mission to find out something for someone who otherwise is having trouble finding it out fits into Guy's "sentence". Why does the agency/guild/church/government want it, and the Consequences once they have the information is where the excitement of the story happens. Keeping it morally ambiguous will keep it exciting. Make the PC unclear if who they are working for is on the right side of things/ if who they are investigating are not as bad, or perhaps have a valid point of view. The PC should never need to turn against the party to do their subplot/character stuff; it should always be value-added. If the spy thing is thought of early, give them a flashy obvious cover: cook, musician, bartender, salesman that lets them interact with people in an obvious way. No silent quiet types! If an existing character is being recruited to spy, it would be a character with good people skills, who has reason to interact with the targeted people or area. If a character was taking a level of rogue, it would be a nice in-game way to work this in. Just my thoughts, I hope they help!
What do I do when I have a 6 year campaign with lots of master plot Politics villains scheming Armageddon lich army riding to kingdom with a powerful corruption is gods enemy Cosmic horror unseen God playing chess corruption but never show up Heroes journey something about being chosen one but it's a mystery which PC is Invaders a powerful bad guy unknown coming with an army What if I delayed the main plot which is the lich and cosmic gods so far that I have lost the plot created too many useless npc and sub plot nobody cares about . The heroes journey needs to be done so is the cosmic war and Armageddon But the heroes are far far removed from the main story cause they are busy surviving back stabs How to move the story forward since its lost
Bring the plot forward, let them find things from the main plot like destroyed towns, slaves, whatever your villain likes. Then keep exposing it to them. If you use a map you could draw a circle around the army and anything in that zone should run the risk of seeing soldiers pillaging houses, patrolling, setting up road blocks. Basic things armies do. It still gives the players options. You could have the nation the lich is attacking lose and become occupied then the heroes would act accordingly. Making pacts with lesser lords and battling to reclaim the nation.
Guy: Lists Bonds faults
Me: Pictures Archer
Well, my players used to be mad about sandboxing against nameless and expendable proxies with the puppetmasters totally unseen. When i tried to throw them a bone, sending someone with more knowledge, they just killed the guy. Involving the players in a game of shadows is tricky.
"Possibly to steal the Thesaurus"
Now that's a worthy mission!
Great video, Guy!!!
As the "basic template" for spy personalities in my games, I've more often referred directly to "Solomon" from Indiana Jones (played by John Rhyes-Davies)... as the quintessential BELIEVABLE type of all-purpose Character for exactly "hiding in plain sight" that any true secret agent would need.
OH sure, the worlds of 007 or Maxwell Smart and the lot are fine, but it's just a bit "questionable" to have your spies larking about in all -black suits and expensive super-cars... The dubiously flamboyant guy who can improvise an unexpected punch to the face through a news-paper, scream-sheet, or even by requesting an enemy agent in pursuit to hold the money for a bar-room bet and stall for the PC's is a MUCH more fun, believable, and (more specifically) noticeable persona to inject into the roll.
BUT (of course) I'm not the only perspective on the "spy game"... for which many are probably just as happy. ;o)
I would actually like to see a video on how to run a spy type game. That is, the player are spys.
"Being spy is actualy boring job" Well sure if you're talking about real spies. I mean the James Bond types: flirting with Ivana Foolaround in Monte Carlo, breaking into Dr. Evils suite, finding the secret base in Waziristan and leading a highly trained group of Canadian Mounties on an assault on the fortress, that sort of thing.
Watch Archer!
I actually made my Players once start their game out like this. I sent an agent of an evil organization to manipulate them right out the gate, after their first quest. None of them questioned it, because I made them think I was an inexperienced GM, so they thought it was just poor writing from me when I said “I’m an agent of the king, and I heard you’re a band of promising individuals.” This let them drop their guard, and when I revealed, after they had set in motion a chain of events that fell the entire kingdom, I had the agent come out as the big bad who used them as a scapegoat. This flipped their expectations of my campaign immediately. That soft little government stooge turned out to be a level 20 Rouge who ended up killing one of the PC’s because they underestimated him after he showed his true colors. This set a tone that for them, this would be a campaign that they couldn’t use their intuition on, and that they’d instead need to be more cautious and clever about how they went about clearing their name and stopping this bastard who manipulated them into taking the blame. Luckily, the player who died didn’t get upset, and instead became even more interested, because he had a chance to reset and make a character more suited for a campaign like this.
I needed this upload more than I realized. I play a Khajiit Rogue (Agent), a member of the Penitus Oculatus and he's undercover among a band of adventures. He's a former slave to the dunmeri and has made his life mission to free the dunmeri slaves and end the tribunals.
Phenomenal as always, this has just given me loads of ideas for my campaign:)
Recently had in a campaign that after our initial recruiting, the PC was having trouble figuring out my character, the only Ranger on a pirate ship of thieves and a couple tanks. I roleplay a few sessions and we start to see a World War 1-esk situation setting up. I actually plan on having Ranger written off and start a new one. DM said no, wait, he's got a plan. I had maid my Ranger with a soldier background... DM used that and had my character drafted to be a spy. It has proved fun.
Before running an undercover game I have found (from a serious mistake) be sure, probably with a session 0,that everyone knows that the type of game is Fleming or LaClaire.
That is fantastic advice! I'd add Clancy in there as well.
yes, long age when the first all espionage titles like top secret came out I tried running a serious LeClaire style game, took two sessions before I had to kill it because the player wanted Bond,years later I started a Bond style that the players morphed into a more serious game in the style of LeClaire.
Haha the intro voice will forever be Donkey for me :)
Scratches was a government spy all along!
Fantastic video. Love these plot methods.
I love how much life you breath into your advice!
I read "Ghosts of Saltmarsh: Call of the Kracker" which made me laugh lol
When my players are asked to drive a truck they spend the next 20 minutes asking questions. On the other hand, it is fun to have obvious spys watching them just to make them nervous. BTW Love the accent. Is that supposed to be American?
I tried playing a spy game once. The group ran into a series of bad rolls at the very beginning of the first mission. All the characters looked like idiots and we just don't want to play anymore.
I don't have an ad blocker, and I did not see an ad during your video...
If you think Spies and bond-ish agents are not that fitting, you could make the agents members of THE thieves guild.
who would want to rpg career politicians as P.C.s ?!?
You should try Vampire the Masquerade. It's highly political, while still horror and dealing with "being a vampire and turning into a monster". Great fun
What if a PC is playing the secret agent
Kinda depends on the particulars...
First, it's worth pointing out that NO plot or sub-plot has a purpose in the game if it isn't REVEALED at some point.
That's important so you can "brief" any Player who approaches with the intent of a PC-spy scenario in a Campaign. Then it's a matter of picking around the various powers for that PC to invest in, take sides with or against, independent of the Party...
AND due note: "Independent" is exactly that. It doesn't require the PC act against the Party specifically, just without the rest of them involved or weighed on any particular thinking... or choice of ally, etc...
Mechanically, it generally runs by the same principles as the rest of the PC's, BUT with the exception of "clandestine" information... Since there will be some things this one Player will have to communicate with the GM and the other Players shouldn't be privileged to know about it until "Revelation"... Then it helps to create a secret messaging between GM and Player...
I've passed notes under the table, myself. Folded and laid "sniper style" messages for the GM and for a certain Player to find... practiced and trained for "cantor", which is a method of hand signals, symbols, and simple improvised material signs and things for making messages... even "double speak" has been a thing. It takes practice to get to a level of functionality, but in application, it's worth it... IF you're actually into that sort of thing.
Finally, just because a certain PC is also a Spy or Double Agent, that's not necessarily to the detriment of the Party. It doesn't have to entail any betrayal between Players... It certainly CAN include those sorts of things IF the rest of the Table isn't going to rage-quit and start bludgeoning each other with over-loaded bags of dice on such a revelation... SO some dubious account for sensibility and "reading your Players" will help. ;o)
After watching this, I dusted off my old TSR Top Secret game.
You can see my comment about our PC agent above. I was mindful when crafting the plots for the character that the character's choices must not be preordained, in order to preserve agency & avoid the perception of railroading. Having the character's mission to find out something for someone who otherwise is having trouble finding it out fits into Guy's "sentence". Why does the agency/guild/church/government want it, and the Consequences once they have the information is where the excitement of the story happens.
Keeping it morally ambiguous will keep it exciting. Make the PC unclear if who they are working for is on the right side of things/ if who they are investigating are not as bad, or perhaps have a valid point of view. The PC should never need to turn against the party to do their subplot/character stuff; it should always be value-added.
If the spy thing is thought of early, give them a flashy obvious cover: cook, musician, bartender, salesman that lets them interact with people in an obvious way. No silent quiet types! If an existing character is being recruited to spy, it would be a character with good people skills, who has reason to interact with the targeted people or area. If a character was taking a level of rogue, it would be a nice in-game way to work this in.
Just my thoughts, I hope they help!
@@HLR4th oh they will help .
Spies are interesting
"Acting ish easy. You jusht have to speak like thish..."
Build for a character or NPC who's a member of the secret police?
4:06 Just go straight in?! That’s what your mother said last night Tre-beck!!! Harharharharharhar!!!
I freaking love fake jeopardy with fake Connery. And Bond. And Austin Powers
Best Sean Connery impersonation ever!
Secret agents are easy in Pathfinder. Just make a vigalantie.
Just use a rogue.
man... if only that option existed in literally every other ttrpg known to man...
Whoa. Scratches The Donkey was a secret agent!
What do I do when I have a 6 year campaign with lots of master plot
Politics villains scheming
Armageddon lich army riding to kingdom with a powerful corruption is gods enemy
Cosmic horror unseen God playing chess
corruption but never show up
Heroes journey something about being chosen one but it's a mystery which PC is
Invaders a powerful bad guy unknown coming with an army
What if I delayed the main plot which is the lich and cosmic gods so far that I have lost the plot created too many useless npc and sub plot nobody cares about .
The heroes journey needs to be done so is the cosmic war and Armageddon
But the heroes are far far removed from the main story cause they are busy surviving back stabs
How to move the story forward since its lost
Bring the plot forward, let them find things from the main plot like destroyed towns, slaves, whatever your villain likes.
Then keep exposing it to them. If you use a map you could draw a circle around the army and anything in that zone should run the risk of seeing soldiers pillaging houses, patrolling, setting up road blocks. Basic things armies do.
It still gives the players options.
You could have the nation the lich is attacking lose and become occupied then the heroes would act accordingly. Making pacts with lesser lords and battling to reclaim the nation.
@@epicfail5473 thank you very much . I hope I can move the story forward
Glad to have helped.
first comment
also second comment