@@TheRealVenom448Yeah, Tony says they were "going easy on them", then Vision shows up. I think the implication is that they called Vision on because they were no longer holding back.
If it was comic accurate, and now that the X-Men are in the MCU, it should’ve been Wolverine since Bucky killed his wife Itsu in 1940’s-1950’s, and “killed” his unborn son
One line that always gets looked over is when Tony in all his grief asks Bucky “Do you even remember them?” And Bucky responded with “I remember all of them”, he never wanted to do those things, he practically wasn’t even Bucky during that moment.
Sebastian Stan actually suggested that was a lie. That Bucky didn't, in fact, remember all his kills, and only said that because it was what he thought Tony wanted to hear. He figured one of them wasn't going to get out of the facility alive, and would prefer Tony kill him than Steve.
@@englishlady9797dont remember him saying that, but even so the falcon and winter solider show indicates he remembers them and recalls them in his nightmares
@@ryanneale6501 Yes but that show is full of silly retcons anyway so I don't count anything it says. According to it Bucky never had memory loss and was working for HYDRA willingly the whole time. Both of which aren't accurate or true. Also look at the context. He's basically trying to scare Karlii into not doing bad stuff. I don't think the writers of the series watched anything other than Civil War. 😂
@@englishlady9797 You said it yourself though: "Sebastian Stan actually suggested that was a lie." He SUGGESTED that it was a lie. That's the magic word that indicated it could be a future plot point but decided against it.
@@englishlady9797 " that show is full of silly retcons anyway so I don't count anything it says" - not how it works I'm afraid, Batman not killing people is originally a retcon, so I guess we should ignore that from now on too huh?. And I'd rather believe the show writers than a random online with no proof Stan ever said that. Like it or not, the show is part of the universes canon.
We have a guy that can see the future and stop crimes before they happen. He is right normally, the test to see if he can see the future should have been what are the winning lotery numbers guess right we trust you guess wrong your off the team, he would guess 5/6 numbers.
@daraghokane4236 what's crazy is he wasn't even the first character to have that power, but they're acting like all of a sudden it's a problem. Never made sense.
@@daraghokane4236 , his super powers is the same as Basic Observational Haki from One Piece, so of course I side with Tony in Civil War 2 that he shouldn't make the nation a police state by the slight possibility of the future being wrong.
@@mups4016 I like the idea that in dc and marvel just like real life there are tons of people that think they can see the future or have some power but don't. Superman saves people from a fire and one goes I knew you would show up then superman goes convinced there pysic and trusts them on everything.
The best part about Steve not telling Tony is: Even when Cap is wrong, he's right. He said it from the jump: People have agendas, and agendas change. Even Cap is like "Don't think I'm infallible. I'm not. Don't do everything I say because you think I'm perfect. I can lie. I can keep secrets."
@@Just_Some_Guy_with_a_Mustache you’re last two sentences and the quote he quite literally did the opposite lol he brought Clint back who was on retirement given where his safe house is at there’s no way he would’ve known what was happening unless Cap had told him and Antman
That's not true, Wanda was literally Ultrons henchman. Tony made Ultron by accident but Wanda consciously helped Ultron enact his plan, she's more responsible for Sokovia than Tony ever was. Plus everything Tony was saying was proven correct by the events of Wandavision and Multiverse of Madness
@@prolastmedia6171I don't agree that Wanda was more responsible for Ultron, that an exaggeration seeing that she only helped him get vibranium from Klaw and fight the Avengers once. Ultron is Tony's sole responsibility especially cause he was made without the rest of the Avengers knowing what he was doing. Wandavision happened when the avengers disbanded. I blame the surviving Avengers and Doctor Strange for Westview as much as I blame Wanda. But Ultron? Nah bruv, that Tony and Bruce's fault all the way
@@kadewade8726 they turned Spiderman into Jimmy Olsen with Superpowers. We skipped the origin story, only for them to do an origin story anyway. What a waste of a trilogy.
@DavidMartinez-ce3lp Oh man you weren't there. Audiences didn’t want a third retelling of the same story and back in the day, audiences were pleasantly suprised for not retreading again. Can't be mad when literally everyone asked for it
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp Forreal... T'Challa was a complex, interesting character in Civil War and they made him kind of a goof in his own movie like WTH were the writers doing. Homecoming wasn't as bad but they kept making him too much of a Tony Stark fanboy and I kinda didn't mess w it seeing as he was already taking on hero work before he was found.
@@jointkay-y5iThe fact Tony's ideology totally influenced by that Black woman at the start of the movie is totally stupid . Like you can't guilt trip a superhero and completely change his ideology into believing that government is right. It's the same man who said he not gonna give secret formula of his suits to the government in Ironman 2 . This feels so out of pocket for his character
In that final fight, Cap was trying to save Bucky from Tony. But in addition Cap was also trying to stop Tony from killing an innocent man. Hydra is responsible for killing Tony's parents. They just used Bucky as a weapon. He is innocent. Heck, he is a victim of Hydra as well.
Though That's true and I agree with that at the end of the day bucky is still the one who shot them mind control or not he was still the one who physically did the act
@@LouisBerina are you being serious? He had no control over his actions. If someone with mind control powers forced you to kill someone, is it your fault? Should you be punished as the murderer?
Tony wasn't just angry that he killed his mom, Tony felt betrayed when Cap lied to him. That's when he lost it. Tony can be rational and was rational when he went to help Cap but once Cap also betrayed him, he wanted to go for the kill
You guys have good points on Tony' side. Tony had every right to feel the way he felt. He had just seen video footage of the man standing in front of him killing his parents. And the other man standing in front of him is his best friend who knew about it and didn't tell him. He understandably became blinded in a rage of revenge and betrayal. The fact that that scene was so morally complex is what makes it so great.
Cap was right about the accords Cap was wrong for hiding the truth Tony was right to feel rage towards the winter soldier BUT he was not justified in taking buck's life.
I mean if a men who is supposedly a stranger to you is responsible for the murder of your parents on video while he's standing right next to you in that very moment you wouldn't gaf about mind control and only resort to hands and cap didn't make it any better when he knew about this all the long which made tony want to kill bucky even more
@@cynthiamorisson458 Still not justified. I mean you’d think someone as smart as Tony would realize that this man was not the culprit in his parents deaths and certainly didn’t want them dead, and that Hydra was. And he CLEARLY saw that this was the case all while completely and purposefully ignoring this context.
@@sohrtresort20 thats just it.... Stark DOES know Bucky was brainwashed and not in control.... he called him "Manchurian Candidate" 5 minutes before throwing down. For those unaware.... The Manchurian Candidate is a movie about brainwashing.
It wouldn't have mattered if they were all together anyways. If anything if they never split they would have been too weak to fight Thanos during the invasion. add onto the fact that the avengers are slower to accept teammates as a group, they go full military protocol and there would have been no time for that(Example: Meeting the guardians and Thor for the first time) If anything he helped make earth strong enough to face Thanos.
The thing is that Tony supported the accords because he wanted to throw his responsibilities as a hero to the government just so he wouldn't feel bad when his decisions blew up in his face. Meanwhile Cap understood that every individual must hold the responsibilities of their own actions and that letting someone else make the decisions for them won't expedite them from said responsibilities. Ironically this is the same reason most people want a government, to have someone else make the decisions for them so they don't have to to the point that they turn a blind eye to all the crap the system does just so they can keep the illusion of being free from their own responsibility.
I agree. Mrs Spencer confronting him in Civil War after he gave his speech to students demonstrated to him that, because he built Ultron, he's still guilt and remorse motivated like in Iron man 1 when the soldiers who escorted him in the desert got killed with his own weapons. Back to square one. I just wrote a long independent comment about how this finds parallels, calls back to, sets up more things. And it is amazing that We DC fans feel more grown up having had the Cadmus arc and the calm Darkseid find their cinematic equivalent in the Avengers and the Sokovia accords Shield etc and the rarely enraged Thanos.
@@Arovna , Darkseid is the Thanos of the DC universe, but even with a government making illegal clones of Superman that didn't save the world from Superman and Darkseid nearly destroying the world in the Earth 2 comics from the New 52 tie in comics, so both Marvel and DC I don't trust the government in those comics like I do in the Invincible comics.
@@Arovna , even in the DCAU I hated Amanda Waller, but I only gotten into the DC comics and Invincible comics fairly recently, so I haven't read all of those comics like I have with the Marvel comics.
People often forget that Steve read the entire Sokovia Accords before making his decision he didn't read part of it or most of it he read all of it and then Steve was like yeah I'm good, so yeah I'm taking Steve side not just because he's worked for the US Government and he knows how these mofos think and operate but again he actually read the entire Sokovia Accords.
Steve's perspective was just flat out wrong, there's no argument to can make against that. Yeah the Sokovia Accords weren't perfect but they were a first step on what could've turned into a much better system, if Steve had actually bothered to stay and help instead of running away to hang out with his little boyfriend
@@prolastmedia6171I’m convinced some people just saw the title and ran straight into the comments. Tony was right to crash out over his parents that’s about it
@@prolastmedia6171 Tony was right that the Heroes need to be put in check and regulated but it shouldn't have been through the accords. Tony want the Avengers to become complete slaves to the UN, the most evil group in the world. Cap wasn't completely against it as shown in he video but he wanted safe guards. Tony on the other hand said "We need to be put in check, whatever form that takes i'm game." Cap was willing to compromise while Tony wasn't. In the real would you wouldn't want their to be superpowered group of people policing the world while following NO rules. The Avengers is a Private miliary doing whatever they wanted where ever they wanted. . If you look up the Accords you'd understand that it was a bunch a civil rights violations and should've been thrown out.
@@topspinbot5777He only knew that Tony’s parents where killed. He could have assumed it was Bucky but he never could have been sure. If you think I’m wrong when did he find out?
@@ultrachim7080 I haven’t seen the movie in a while but I think that it was implied that Steve knew. So I can’t confirm that ur right or wrong but it really doesn’t matter fr.
@@topspinbot5777 No Steve only new Hydra had a hand in killing Tony's parents because in Winter Soldier, When Steve told Zola 'Someone would've been found out about Hydra' Zola replied with we have ways of accidents happening,'(I'm paraphrasing here) before showing Ateve the article of Howard and Maria's death So no Steve didn't know that Bucky specifically killed Tony's parents
@@ultrachim7080 You are not wrong, he knew Hydra did it, but he didn't know it was Bucky until Civil War when Bucky told him, but he wouldn't tell Tony either because he was so busy running away from him.
I have an issue with Tony black mailing a 15yo kid from Queens to help him fight super-powered criminals and inducted him partly as an avenger. Imagine if he was killed or severely injured and Tony has to explain to aunt may why that happened. This happens in the same movie where tony is confronted by a grieving mother about how his creation killed her son.
@@furiousfizzypop7549 Tony went to Peter’s house and told him that he knew his secret, something that Peter desperately hides from everyone including his aunt. Tony says come to Germany, Peter says that he has responsibilities with school, Tony says “I’m gonna pretend I didn’t hear that,” Tony says Peter is joining him or he’s gonna tell Aunt May Peter’s secret. Peter also really looks up to Tony and sees him as a father figure and Tony uses his status to make Peter oblige. Sure Peter does get some injuries from cap, but he excuses them as getting in a fight with other kids. Peter could’ve absolutely been killed though had caps team not held back as much as they did and Peter was lucky not to get in direct fights with more dangerous members of team cap. Scarlet Witch, Bucky, Ant-man, and Hawkeye could’ve killed him had they not been fighting other characters as well as Spider-man playing safe. Team Tony had more in-fights than cap with Black Widow betraying the gov’t and Vision missing Falcon and hitting Rhodey which caused his crippling. Hell T’Challa wasn’t with the gov’t he just wanted to kill Bucky, imagine if Peter accidentally got in the way, BP could’ve killed him. Tony is not in the right.
Honestly both sides are in the wrong if we’re being deadass outside of sokovia accords Tony didn’t need to kill Bucky because he was brainwashed but Cap didn’t need to keep that truth from Tony until Civil War.. also let’s not act like anyone of us wouldn’t crash out if you saw the person who killed your mother..
Yeah I’ll be the first to admit that if i was tony, more likely than I would’ve crashed out like he did. But that doesn’t mean it was the right thing to do. Just because u can understand a persons feelings doesn’t mean it makes their actions the morally right actions. There’s a reason why they had tchalla not kill zemo, it showed that tchalla had more self control than tony. How tchalla acted is what Tony should’ve acted but tony let his emotions get the best of him. Again I’m not saying Tony wasn’t justified for being mad and upset but that doesn’t take away from that fact that he was about to murder an innocent man. Yes bucky is innocent no matter how u spin it ok. Mind control is a real thing in the fictional world. Facts are facts at the end of the day and Tony literally got mad at gun instead of the person that shot the gun.
honestly, who cares about that, the real question is about whether Tony was right to try and restrict the liberty that Superheros had as vigilantes or whether Cap was right to want Supers to be self governing and not accountable.
@@prolastmedia6171 who cares about that?? That was the whole main drive from both parties in the third act of the film.. the Sokovia Accords are just as important and once again both are wrong. Cap wants a world where the Avengers can do whatever whenever disregarding civilian life Tony wants the opposite but they have to work with the government
@@smokedsanjlNo, no, Cap wants a world where the Avengers are accountable to each other....accountability is still there and present just not to a government or higher power and after Winter soldier, my guy.....do you blame him? On top of that, Tony doesn't want the opposite per say, Tony just wants them to be held accountable by a government which to be honest. Is a dumb idea especially after the best plan they could come up with for the battle of new York being nuke the place. After that Hail Hydra in Winter Soldier. After that Damage Control being being compromised. My dude, in this particular aspect of the argument. Cap is right, they just needed a better internal system of accountability as a private organization. Cause in fact, the safest hands were their own.....until they broke up after endgame again lol
What's wild is that Tony & Steve had an interesting perspective on their respective stances: -Tony was the one confronted by the mother of one of the victims in Sokovia. He literally had to stare down someone who blamed HIM for her son's death due to the events of Ultron. No other Avenger was there alongside him to share in that blame/guilt. -Steve was on the run from S.H.I.E.L.D. in Winder Solider and learned he couldn't trust the government due to Hydra's infiltration. Sam & Natasha were along for the ride in this one, but remember Steve had such a belief in his country and the powers that be prior to even gaining his superhuman abilities. He woke up in a world not like the one he remembers and his allegiance to his country was shattered after that movie (and even more in Civil War). I have no doubt he would easily be the one most against the Accords due to NOT wanting the government to be in charge of the Avengers because for all they know there are other Hydra operatives in the ranks! Both could be described as 'selfish' with their actions. You could say Steve was in terms of protecting Bucky, BUT that really has nothing to do with the Accords themselves. He was against them even before Black Panther's father was murdered. Tony was projecting HIS guilt for the events of Age of Ultron onto everyone else and it wasn't fair! In the long run, he was right about Wanda though... Tony was self projecting in a 'Tony knows best...' kinda way and it didn't work...
To be fair though, Tony is the only one that should be confronted with that blame and guilt, HE created Ultron. Sure the Avengers were at Sokovia and part of the fight, but the only reason Sokovia fell was because of Ultron's plan, and Ultron only existed because Tony decided to try making another super bot.
@@snowmann. No Wanda just put fear into his head which lead to his decision to make Ultron. Wanda may have pushed it, but Tony made him under his own free will.
I think I do too as yes cap did lie and it's bad but he lied to save Bucky from dying. Something Tony should understand. I'm sure Steve would do the same for Tony too.
@Seoul_Soldier He didn't want to see his friend die who had no control of his actions. Wanda helped make Tony make ultron but cap still stood by his side even though they did have a argument about him.
One thing that instantly makes the movie Civil War better than the Comic event itself is that characters like Tony Stark, and others, aren’t bastardized and written wildly out of character for no reason. Which basically made it less of a “who do you side with?” and more of a “Tony is fucking wild and on some supervillain type shit”. So, I’m glad to see a proper take on this event of these two opposing forces actually having legitimate reasons within their genuine character.
The issue with this is that MCU Iron Man, isn’t Comic Iron Man. They’re not the same character writing wise, so course they’re gonna act different from what their intentions in the Civil War story.
Ultimate Alliance 2 felt far more legitimate in that regard. Not completely even, but it wasn’t just one sided. And at the end, they teamed up together and took down the big bad orchestrating the events, and righted their wrongs
@@prolastmedia6171bro wah? Ok, let's try the Hydra incident which runs deep in almost every government in the world. Tony's point is completely invalidated because he want to trust the same people who have proven themselves corrupt and untrustworthy in most installments of the franchise😂😂😂😂😂😂, brother please😂😂😂
@@InnuendicThoughts yep. "The government wouldn't do that." Yes, Yes they would. Bro thinks working for one of the most corrupt organisations without any checks or balances is good idea.
@@gayanudugampola8973 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂dude😂😂😂 Like mans, even if I were to agree that the avengers need to be held accountable for their stuff........trusting the government in this universe would bring more problems than solutions😂😂😂😂😂 I think the best compromise I've seen was how the justice league operated in YJ and even then they got hoe'd when Lex Luthor got into the UN. This system doesn't work😂😂😂😂😂
@@InnuendicThoughts Literally, Young Justice was the best example of why a scenario like the Sokovia Accords wouldn’t work. The UN would stall whichever superhero group out, especially with corrupt individuals all throughout each governmental body within each country apart of the UN and the cherry on top is they all have different agendas; most countries wouldn’t want basically a special military force from the UN coming within their countries to try and help or solve their issues. This all would happen with or without the influence of people like Lex Luthor, Amanda Waller, Nick Fury, Thunderbolt Ross, and different organizations (organizations like Cadmus, The Light, League of Assassins in DC; organizations like Hydra, Shield & Sword, and The Hand in Marvel) making the process more difficult for the JL/Titans or Avengers/X-Men/etc (other spinoff teams). We barely figure out or solve the world’s issues with our own UN and people think a superhero/supervillain world wouldn’t make it even harder to come to a consensus? 🤦🏽♂️💀
While I loved the Civil War comics and even Civil War II unironically😂 yeah its definitely character assassination one on one and really made Tony look like an absolute monster
@@gayema664No it’s not. The game doesn’t make Iron Man Worse, as it removes the parts from the comic that made him terrible in the storyline itself.
Tony was only half right in the film, had he not tried to kill Bucky he would’ve been able to convince Steve and the others to join the accords, that being said, Steve is wise to mention that the accords were at risk of corrupt politicians taking control of the Avengers.
@@emmarosedewittbukater i meant in a pure emocional Sense he was right, is the same as saying that although its understandable its not something you should do logically or legally, i Just used weird words
The UN was over the Avengers in the comics for a while, and it was complete disaster. Just like Cap said in the film, there were times when the Avengers were needed and the UN wouldn't let them act. This lead to serious fallout that rippled across the Marvel Universe; particularly affecting the X-Men, some Avengers members, and mutant relations in general.
@@navy0287 Touche’, even the Marvel Ultimate Universe (early 2000s) was a perfect example why the military shouldn’t oversee SuperHumams to begin with.
I might've been alone in it but I was 100% team Captain America. I've always respected his perspective of "holding a gun to people's head isn't creating peace, but fear" and Steve was absolutely right that if higher powers control them then they have to obey their orders above doing what is right is the accords went through. From the perspective of Tony, who has never had a leash and desperately wishes he had one, he doesn't know what that feels like. Meanwhile Steve, who's thought of himself as a dancing monkey, understands what this means. The answer, in my opinion, was not that they needed a leash, they needed a netting. Something that protected the general public from them, which was what S.H.I.E.L.D. was supposed to be in the first place. They should've done everything they could to unite and make something to protect the public from THEM without putting a leash on. That's my two cents though.
If you're referring to the comics, it was: SHIELD created the "Cape-Killers" strike teams to either arrest or kill heroes who were against registration.
By the time Captain America Civil War came out, SHIELD was still around thanks to Age of Ultron and Agents of SHIELD, so I don’t know why they weren’t involved with the movie’s plot. At least in Ultimate Alliance 2, SHIELD was actually the main starting point regarding the two Teams.
I just find it crazy how often TeamCap people have shown that they can understand the TeamTony reasoning while still showing clear holes in the logic, while in contrast TeamTony people *_STILL_* to this day will show that they are incapable of understanding where TeamCap is coming from.
@@SockieTheSockPuppet I agree. There are whole vids dedicated to showing how many crimes and felonies Tony commited in his time- well beyond weapons dealing. He discharged his weapons whilst drunk at a party in Iron Man 3 I mean *what?* He took a literal child into combat in Civil War and that's without considering the millions of deaths he caused in Segovia or the fact his father was basically responsible for the infilration of SHIELD because he hired known Nazi war criminals. They're always saying "oh the Avengers must be held accountable!" but you notice that Tony hihmself is *never* held accountable? For anything. *Ever*. I think Tony fans are just trying to make themselves feel better for stanning a narcissistic war criminal with few scruples who gets away with his actions because he's billionaire. And sucked up to corrupt poliitcians.
@englishlady9797 I feel like you went too far with that. Like why him being white, an American, and a billionaire, what has that got do with anything? Especially his skin color? I'm focusing on Tony's belief ultimately in more government control (or rather him being in control, at times) is a major part of his personality problem shared with these people, narcissism needless to be said.
@@SockieTheSockPuppet Yeah maybe. Though his being a billionaire is relevant as it allows him to basically buy his way out of trouble if he needs to. Also people who suck up to governments can often get away with bad stuff if they do what that government wants though that doesn't apply exclusovely to Americans at all. Yeah, its also interesting how the whole thing in Civil War is started by a woman confronting Tony over her son's death in Segovia. She says that she wants him to face the consequences but hasn't got any legal means of making sure that happens. Its almost the same with Zemo (though I am not one of those "actually Zemo isn't bad" peopl since he murdered innocents in pursuit of his goals). I think Tony was more interested in making it *look* like he was being held accountable, even if that meant throwing others under the bus, then actually *being* accountable. It is basically the easy way out though as it costs him nothing really. it is others who have to suffer and make sacrifices. The not wanting to be responsible or held responsible does seem to be a shared personality trait, but God help you if you hurt Tony. Also not seeming to care about consequences for others.
I used to be on Team Iron Man, but the more I thought about it, the more Captain America made more sense. Especially when you consider The Winter Soldier and the corruption in the government. (And yes, I was blindsided by Black Panther and Spider-Man.)
I hope you make more "[marvel character] was WRONG" videos because the fact people unironically think Thanos was right for wiping out countless lives when he had infinite power and definitely better options, or the guy who's basically Marvel's Victor Zsasz are the "true heroes" of their stories is so ludicrous.
I find that comic book fans (or, at least, people who call themselves comic book fans when I'm 90% sure they've never picked up an actual comic book) have the most braindead takes. Siding with the villain just because they have some nihilistic take doesn't make you seem cool, it just makes you look like you've never outgrown your middle school edgelord phase.
Although Iron Man was in the wrong in this movie at least he didn’t clone a God, hired super villains to his side and imprisoned heroes in the Negative Zone.
@Mustafa_AhmedPGH not Superman, those were all things tony did in the Civil War comic. He was pretty fucking wild, sometimes you questioned if he was a hero or flat out villain atp.
2:48 that scene right there proves why Steve is Captain America. He truly values the freedoms that the Constitution/Bill of Rights entails. So much so that he doesn’t want the avengers to be controlled by the very government they work with and protect.
No one's going to say anything about Tony. Stark blackmailing Peter Parker into going to Germany to fight against Captain America and his team. That's just weird.
Nobody going to say anything about Zemo. Its funny who people are always harping on about Tony's parents this, Tony's parents that... but the death of Zemo's wife and kid which Tony caused by means of Ultron was the real catalyst for everything that happened in Civil War.
Thank you!!!! I am so sick of this debate, especially when all the Tony supports bring up the end fight with no context of the entire movie. As if Cap and Bucky were jumping him for no reason. Not to mention, during the whole fight, both Cap and Bucky were not trying to kill Tony or for any death blows while Tony nearly took Bucky's head off at least 3 times and blew his arm off making him a cripple. Watch the fight closely, and you can see Cap and Bucky just disabling Tony's suit. Also, on Twitter, it's crazy that people want to mention Bucky trying to rip out the Arc reactor, and they think that will kill Tony. Like, these people clearly don't watch the MCU because Tony took care of that problem in Ironman 3. Ripping the Arc reactor out would just disable the suit, not kill Tony. The only thing Cap did wrong was not tell Tony, but also when would've been a good time for that? Winter Soldier was 2014, and Civil War was 2016, and in between that they had to deal with Ultron in 2015. What was Steve gonna do? Invite Tony over for steaks and say, "You know my best friend Bucky? Well, Hydra brainwashed him and made him an assasin who killed over 200 people, including JFK and your parents. Want some steak sauce with that?" Tony acted out of anger, and Cap/Bucky acted out of defense but were not trying to kill Tony, but Tony was trying to kill Bucky. Cap was right.
Cap knew that Hydra killed Tony's parents ( in Winter Soldier), not that Bucky was used to do it! He found that out the same time Tony does! He says I knew but not about Bucky!
Tony is just trying to arrest Bucky, not killing him. If Tony really wants to kill Bucky, he can use missiles,lasers and whatever tech he has in his suit to do it.
@jinkaiho6128 we talking about the final battle after the airport battle and after he found out about his parents. Watch the video again. Tony went for his head plenty of times. He was out for blood. Stop lying and watch the video
@@Batman-st4hq bro, that energy blast won't kill Bucky, Bucky got shot by the energy blast once after Tony destroyed his arm, watch back the laser Tony use to block Cap, that's the weapon can kill Bucky, and he didn't used it on Bucky.
@@Batman-st4hq I agreed Cap didn't try to kill Tony, but Bucky? Not really, he pointed his gun towards Tony right after Tony slapped Cap in the face. Is not that Bucky didn't try to kill Tony, it's just that he isn't capable of killing Tony. You misconceptions of kindness and incapability.
Not to mention the Sokovia Accords were a blatant violation of human rights built on a political pipe dream. The world governments acted on knee-jerk prejudice and fear out of the legitimately destructive collateral damage of war being waged among civilians and turned around creating a set of mostly unenforcable rules that treated all enhanced persons, innocent or not, like second-class citizens at best and - how was it Stark phrased it? - weapons of mass destruction instead of people at worst. The worst part was you know they weren’t ever consulted in the creation of those Accords. No one tried to work with them to find a solution that bred respect and safety for all, no one considered the extreme danger those Accords would put enhanced people in, no one considered them at all except as threats to be chained and controlled, regardless of if they actually proved themselves to be dangerous. That’s not okay. The clause effectively saying they could be imprisoned without trial if they were read as a threat (read: if someone twitchy got a little spooked by them even if they did nothing wrong), is just abhorrent. It opens the door to unchecked witch hunts, and that’s exactly what followed. Unenhanced people absolutely deserve security assurances, but not like that. Those Accords needed to have been scrapped and remade with equal voices from day one. Stark had absolutely no way of knowing or understanding how this would impact the enhanced people it targeted and true to character, he didn’t even try to understand. He reacted on impulse out of guilt and dragged everyone around him down as a result. Team Cap all the way.
@@dungeonsanddragonshomebrew3165 The bad luck that John Walker would have been subject to had he appeared in the 3rd film. Hopefully the Accords won't revive in Thunderbolts
@@dungeonsanddragonshomebrew3165 Also the real reason I wanted Tobey Maguire's Peter Parker in the 3rd captain america film is to see if he can convince Tony to end his self pity by talking or unwillingly becoming as cold as how he was in Spider Man 3. Think about it a joke cracking guy like Maguire's Spider Man as shown in No Way Home has more convincing wisdom that Tony at this rate
It always boggles my mind that no one in these situations brings up other cases of mind control such as Wanda controlling Banner to rampage all over Africa. Or Loki brainwashing Hawkeye fo kill however many people he killed in Avengers 1. I know movies have to movie, but there was such a simple solution right there and it only needed words. Words that the characters themselves had. This isn't one of those situations where the audience knows something that the characters don't, no this is all onformation they have because they went through these tense and life changing moments together as a team.
Banner wasn't there to testify that fact since he was in space as the Hulk 24/7, and Loki, according to the Avengers, was being judged by the Asgardians, so again, he couldn't be there to testify.
Not affected?? The one lady who came up to Tony in Civil War to say her son died in the battle of sokovia?? He blamed himself and the avengers for that… when his weapons was used against him and Pepper in the Ironman movies he blames himself for that. Tony just realized working with the government is a smarter handicap to withhold him from doing more bad things
@@smokedsanjlNot affected by the terms is what I wrote revealing his identity doesn’t put his family in the same danger compared to revealing Spider man’s identity as seen in the comics, you misunderstood what I wrote
@@Sid3Ball You must be talking about the comics then bcuz this wasn’t gonna happen in the movies lol. The government just wanted the avengers to work with them not reveal their identities. Comic Tony during Civil War is a different story tho
Tony collaborating with Thunderbolt was a huge mistake and I do think the plan they came up with was morally compromised. All I'm saying is that Tony tried to do something and Cap offered no solutions, so I'm gonna side with Tony every time. That's just my POV as a proactive person but inaction in the face of an issue is morally worse than taking the wrong action in the face of an issue imo. And again, if Steve wasn't so concerned about a single individual, he could've sat down with Tony and tried to come up with a better compromise, but because he was more concerned with Bucky than anything else, he didn't put his full attention on the larger issue
4:30 thats absolutely moronic IMO, people giving him flag for killing a terroris it beyond dumb, this was no "confused" teen. That was a terrorist with a body count, even if the method was not the best, killing him was morally right, i hated that show for trying to be morally correct when "heroes" like Captain America or Iron man have definitely killed before and nobody ever bat an eye
yeah I didn’t have much of a problem with him doing it. They only stripped him of his captain america rank cause he did it so publicly. That’s not the “captain america” thing to do. If he was acting as a normal soldier, I don’t think anybody would’ve batted an eye.
I was Team Captain America as soon as he pointed out signing the Sokovia Accords meant the government could force them somewhere they shouldn't go and prevent them from going somewhere they should. And I kinda wish the revelation that Hydra secretly took over Shield didn't happen until this movie because then Steve Rogers could say "the only reason they want us to sign the accords is so Hydra can control us" and it would have been very interesting if Tony Stark sided with them until finding out Hydra is responsible for Bucky killing his parents.
While i loved the Civil War comics when i was younger years after they came out and still do the movie definitely made both sides have fair point without major character assassination and both sides were valied its not fair for the governement to constantly moniter and take away a hero's freedom but there's also case heroes need to be held accountable for their actions no matter what
Hopefully this shit about the goverment's selfish actions will have a colossal deconstruction in Thunderbolts. Because stealing stuff from the goverment that was seen in the teaser suggests for me like a rather........................... poetic revenge. Almost as if the movie seems to desire the complete extinction of the Accords. No resurrections this time as Thanos says
Stark basically became a boot licker. Trauma or not, nuking civilians is more than enough prove the feds shouldn't be trusted at all. Not to mention Hydra and the tesseract-based weapons.
Tony was wrong for trying to kill bucky (tho understandable) Cap was wrong for not immediately telling tony what happened to his parents when he found out Bucky is innocent he was kidnapped & brainwashed for years and when finally free gets hunted so his side is the only right side in this movie
One thing you are forgetting is that Cap knew Bucky killed him in Civil War and he wouldn't tell him at the airport and when they met at Siberia, he wouldn't tell him instantly because they were on the mission.....And I don't blame Cap at all, he and Nat knew Hydra killed Tony's parents and none of them said anything, why? they had a bigger reason for that.
@UltraBrian-e2q Also even with that. Tony's proven time and time again that he overreacts and makes things worse when presented with tough issues. I would be tempted not to tell him either. Also I remember watching in the bts of the Civil War movie, the Russo brothers said that even if Cap told Tony beforehand, he would've reacted the same way.
I do think Tony's belief in the Sokovia Accords was very understandable, given the damage superheroes in the MCU have caused and I do greatly think Tony was justified in his hatred for Steve for lying to him and about how he knew Bucky killed his parents. However I completely agree that Steve was right about Sokovia Accords and how having superheroes under government control is a bad idea and only restrict them from truly making change
@@daraghokane4236 Look what happened to Hawkeye and Wanda. Hawkeye murdered people for 5 movies and Wanda returned to being a Supervillain. So yeah, they need to be put in check, The Accords simply wasn't the way.
I see both sides. I believe Tony was right ina way. that the Avengers needs regulations, oversight and follow the Laws and borders of other nations. but not to the point of working directly under the UN. Like Tony wanted. a Avengers being treated like a Private Military and rules that come with it. Cap on the other hand wanted the Avengers to act like pure vigilantes policing the world, killing people where ever whenever they wanted while Tony wanted to be slaves to the Government. The middle ground (Private Military) is where i'm at. But seeing how much bad stuff in the accords i'm leaning more on Caps side. Even Tony just ignores the accords in the end of the Movie after seeing the raft so he changes teams.
It's crazy how Tony created Ultron and almost destroyed Earth, and all he has to says is "my fault." That's it. No real consequences for him. Just my bad, and it's all good.
He’s also the same reason the world wasn’t destroyed so what’s your point his punishment is living with the fact people are fucking dead because of him 😂. How bout we punish Wanda for manipulating both Tony and banner, how bout we punish Bucky for all his killings granted he wasn’t in control but we don’t use that logic for drunk drivers
@spadesofpaintstudios1719 Bucky was literally brainwashed. That's not at all the same as drunk drivers. They chose to drink, amd then chose to get behind the wheel
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp they choose to drink but not all the options that come with it much like how Bucky didn’t necessarily choose to commit all actions but he still did them even if he had no control his own subconscious is suppressed. Never the less he did what he did
Tony, "we need to put in check" That's what made me team Cap. It's like Tony didn't trust the Avengers. How are you going to fight side by side with these people and say that? You feel guilty for your mistakes? Fine, make amends. Don't drag everyone else with you. Thinking your way is the only way.
But Ironman was right not to trust them, Cap was lying to his face and Wanda eventually tried to blow up the universe to be with her imaginary kids. Tony was 100% vindicated.
@@prolastmedia6171 Cap was wrong for that. Wanda is just bad writing. Anyone who heard the "ice-cream song" knew those kids weren't worth the trouble 😂
It’s not so much a lack of trust but more so enabling accountability. The whole point of the Accords was that the Avengers wouldn’t believe “thinking your own way is the only way” by having a legal authority supervise and reprimand them if they messed up.
@@jonathandelgado3755 That legal authority consisted of politicians and therein lie the problem. Its not just that policians are corrupt, its that there is an established history in the MCU of politicians not regulating enhanced people. but rather creating and weaponizing them for their own evil ends. Most of the Avengers were created by politicians, and often against their will. You cannot trust people to "supervise" you who view you as a machine to be used for their own ends. You also cannot give that kind of authority to people who do not respect or act within the law themselves. Especially someone like Ross- Ross for goodness sake! He was the guy who created Hulk by illegal human experiments and then created Abomination the say way. A guy who utilizes torture, sanctions extra judicial executions, and is prepared to destroy entire city districts to get his daughter back. If the Avengers wanted someone to hold them to account, they should have chosen some independent body not comprised of politicians. (Rhodey was extremely naive in assuming the UN were not HYDRA: the UN is full of career politicians. We know many politicians were in HYDRA so it stands to reason there were good number of HYDRA operatives among them).
But its mot just his mistakes, its all of theirs. The avengers are a powerful group that can literally hold the fate of the world in their hands. You're really telling me that they should just be allowed to roam free?
Steve line where he talks about people with agenda says it all. I can never be team Iron Man when i know that the people blaming them would actually be gone.
Imagine if even in Agatha All Along the witches would begrudgingly be Team Cap. Think of it Agatha may still be a colossal bag of douche but Tony's blunders have to be so stupid to make a witch side with Steve 😂😂
I think the film did a way better job than the comics. The comics were full of character assassination and led to things like Spider-Man One More Day. It also ruined comic Iron Man’s perception to the public even tho he’s made up for it countless times.
Cap said the best line that should’ve made all the hero’s turn against the Sokovia Accords: It’s run by people with agendas, and agendas change. All it takes is the wrong person in a position of power to screw things up for every one. Cap knows this, and was not going to allow it to happen. Ultimately, Cap was not going to let the Avengers be used for any purpose other than saving lives and doing the right thing. In the long run, he was correct
For real.... you watched the movie, and you understood it. You didn't take a side by first, looking at the characters, seeing which one is on which team.
I understand why Tony believed in it. It’s not as black and white as what people make it out to be. Damn, I miss when the mcu made movies that were so good that we could have these discussions
I love how people forget that the entire point of the accords was to limit the heroes and potentially make them into a black ops team for the U.S general Ross hinted that it was whole reason why the government was so eager to put them into effect and King T’chaka was a mere pawn in order to guilt more super powered individuals into joining the accords and be test monkeys the thunderbolts program the game was literally rigged from the start
Someone finallly mentioned Ross is a pos. How Tony fans can believe he was right when he's literally sucking up to the MCU equivalent of Joseph Mengele is beyond me.
Go ahead and continue your disgusting and prejudiced hate speech against vulnerable people like Tony Stark. While you're busy dehumanizing Tony Stark, I genuinely hope that Bucky Barnes overcomes his trauma and becomes a better person - something Tony Stark will never be abre to do, thanks to hateful people like YOU!!!!!
I tried to somehow find a way in which Stark is right, but there is simply none. Stark chose government's side out of guilt, through emotion not intelligence. Rogers already seen SHIELD try it, and they got compromised by Hydra. Stark was wrong.
I swear people keep forgetting that Tony manipulated/didn't fully explain the situation to Peter when recruiting him, which is pretty questionable. If I was Peter, I would have many questions firing in my head about what was going on instead of just blindly following what Tony tells me.
Yup. He also lied ot Aunt May about where he was going/what he was doing. In fact all of the others acted really shocked and horrified that Tony bought a a literal child into it. In fact if you look at the members of Team Tony there's only like 1 person who really believes in the Accords and that is Rhodey. Tony doesn't care and breaks them as soon as they become inconvenient. T'Challa only sided with Tony because he wanted to kill Bucky but ends up helping him, taking him to Wakanda and pulled Wakanda out of the Accords aferwards anyway. Vision only came to basically take Wanda home. Spidey was just a fanboy who Tony manipulated and really had no idea what was going down. It was in his words "just a chance to impress Mr Stark". Oh and Natasha straight up defected to Cap's side before the movie even ended because she realized she was only alive because Clint did for her what Cap was doing for Bucky. She wanted to repay the favor in a way.
Iron man was so wrong in every single way. His reasoning was bs and due to him they lost in infinity war, if the team wasn’t split they might have won against Thanos. Cap is the leader and the most moral hero of all time while Tony is just a spoiled genius.
Which is understandable. His very own employee who was hired to take pictures of Spider-Man actually turned out to *be* Spider-Man. Anyone in JJJ’s situation would have a reaction like that.
Im 100% with Cap. Not just because i believe in personal freedom to a certain extent but the government has always been shady AF. I also find it funny that Tony is like "we need to be put in check" when he's the reason why Ultron existed and why Quicksilver and Wanda worked with him"
@@ugobrown2357 ya that's true and understandable if he wants to be part of the government let him do him the others aren't obligated too unless they're willing to.
Okay, so Cap didn't actually KNOW it was The Winter Soldier that killed Howard and Maria Stark. In "The Winter Soldier" Zola told Steve and Widow that Hydra did it, but he didn't specify that it was Bucky who pulled the trigger. Steve actually says to Tony "I didn't know it was him" but Tony cuts him off and Steve sees in that moment that Tony has already made up his mind, so he just cops to it and says "yes" because he did know that Hydra had them killed. At best Steve might have guessed/figured out that it was likely Bucky that did it, but he didn't know for a fact.
I agree with Cap too, but you gotta imagine if you were in Tony's shoes. Seeing actual footage of this guy physically killing your parents would make most people go berserk
What i love about the comic book versionsbof the superhero registration act and the mutant registration act is that irl ppl tend to oppose them cuz they view them as infringements on liberties. But the arguement used to support them in comics are identical to gun control arguements. You'd be amazed how many ppl oppose the fictional laws but support the real ones.
Tony Stark was wrong in the film, but I think he had (somewhat) of an argument in the comic. The actions of the New Mutants led to the deaths of hundreds. I wish the film had a better reason for the government getting involved, like the comic.
@@Terminus-y9v I thought the film universe had a decent reason. Superheroes had been active for years and with two Avenger level threats plus several superhero solo adventures I’d say the governments would’ve seen enough to think “Hey, I think we gotta do something.”
@@jonathandelgado3755 There was better build up in the comics, and more of a history to go off of for the government, and by some extension the American public, to want Heroes named and licensed. Terrorist attacks from Brotherhood of Mutants, alien invasions happening on the Fantastic Four's doorstep with countless bystanders harmed in the crossfire, Namor getting pissy about pollution so casually invades the surface whenever, complicated relations with the Inhumans, whatever existential threats the Avengers are dealing with that given day, The Hulk alone... The American people throughout the Marvel comics were skeptical of capes even on a good day and outright wanted Spider-Man shot on a bad one. In the MCU we have no mutants let alone a Magneto to royally fuck up mutant-human relations, Spider-Man films are awful at world building so we really don't have a clearer picture of what the wider public think of Spider-Man post Civil War, and Spider-Man being involved has no where near as much weight as him just revealing his identity to the public after decades worth of comic history to tug on. The Inhumans and Namor along with Atlantis got horribly botched by Marvel Studios so let's not even try to pretend any of that actually happened, so that just leaves existential Avengers level threats and the Hulk's outburst in Age of Ultron to really have any argument for registration. Still a fair argument to be had, but the registration act doesn't have as much weight behind it as it does in the comics from my perspective.
@@jonathandelgado3755 yeah but like it’s mentioned in the universe….they planned to nuke the city. they’re not much better especially because the avengers would probably be misused
@@starchyldecommentaries In all honesty, they’re really not much better, but that may or may not render their points entirely worthless. In the case of NYC it was a last ditch effort against a threat they’d never faced before. Now they kinda just want super powered vigilantes to be held accountable for things that aren’t entirely without fault. It may be hypocritical coming from them but they do have a point.:/
@@jonathandelgado3755 I think if it was just the US government then Tony would be completely wrong but this is the UN. I don't think they would say no to the Avengers saving the world
I wonder if Cap would have the same mindset if we got an MCU version of X-MEN vs AVENGERS. In that series Steve was definitely the Tony. Scott (Cyclops) Summers was right.
The Avengers are NOT the go-to for investigating “cosmic”. Professor Reed Richards should have been brought in immediately (Reed even told Tony and Steve to “stop poking the bear”). And Wolverine’s “Cyclops sucks” yapping didn’t help at all. And what’s with EVERYBODY blaming Scott for “killing” Xavier? HE WAS MIND CONTROLLED! Logan, Cap, Iceman, Storm. All up in Cyclops face. Again, MIND CONTROLLED! You name me one major superhero who hasn’t been. Plus Namor almost destroyed Wakanda. Was he sent to the Gulag?
It's so crazy I didn't remember cap side until I see that specific scene in the conference room, he was cooking way too hard. He didn't want the avengers to have to become the villains because they screwed up in some contract mess or even disassemble. Tony was the one trying to be hollywood, which was strange like you said since he was the one that fucking made ultron. I still side with cap, his side just makes too much sense
Tony fans say that Steve didn't want to play by the rules, but that's one the case at all. Steve's main concern was that those with power could easily abuse the Accords to weaponize superheroes for their own ends- and that happens in the MCU a lot. Also worth noting: Steve is not at any point trying to impose his ideas on others: nor does he force anyone to agree with or support him. He's prepared to go it alone if needs be. He tells Natasha very early on he's not gonna sign, but he respects her descision and she respects his. Tony on the other hand is very much the "I know what's best for you all and you'd better do it or you're in trouble!" guy.
I also never understand how Cap should’ve told Tony that Bucky killed his parents 😭. He found out about that in Winter Soldier, when he found the computerized Zola. The next time we see cap and tony together after that was during age of ultron. But it’s not exactly Avengers Dinner conversation to go up to him and tell him, “Yo you know my best friend who was brainwashed? He killed your parents.” And this was when he hadn’t even found Bucky after Winter Soldier, the first time Cap and Sam find him is DURING Civil War, when Bucky gets framed, and that’s AFTER him and Tony already split up because of the Accords.
All Cap Had to say was the "Right to choose" im not a women but women need the right to choose. Not everybody identity is safe if REVEALED💯💯💯 it's a right to choose to keep your identity sealed AKA hippa
It's crazy that the Sokovia Accords was presented to the Avengers by Secretary Ross. He is the same person who used a derivative of the super soldier serum that created Captain America on one of his soldiers in order to combat the Hulk. He is the same leader who allowed the use of heavy artillery on an occupied university campus. He is the same father who failed to keep his daughter in control thus almost killing her with his own weaponry. He is the same man chastising the Avengers for their apathy of collateral damage even he allowed the Hulk to fight the Abomination within a fully populated city.
The worst part is Tony pinning the blame for his actions on the entire team. Surprised no one brought up that he was the problem, and if they wanted him off the team, fine, but the rest of them didn't cause his problems
@@topspinbot5777 when he didn’t take accountability for sokovia, he’s the whole reason age of ultron happened yet he said nothing. Ultron. Would. Not. Have. Been. Created. If. Not. For. Tony.
@@hughjanus3562 the whole movie is about the danger the Avengers as a whole bring not just Ultron and Sokovia. The movie clearly states that the mere existence of the Avengers insights and breeds conflict. And yes, Tony does take responsibility for what happened with Ultron. He might not show it publicly but him being on the side of the accords is enough proof. Also Tony didn’t intend for Ultron to be a kill bot and since Ultron is his own being. He made the conscious choice to wipe out humanity. They also get on his ass about Ultron in AoU. And keep this same energy for Bruce Banner because. He. Helped. Make. Ultron. And actually DOSEN’T take responsibility of it ether, he flies off world and runs from his own mistakes.
@@topspinbot5777 so wouldn’t the solution be to disband the avengers and not just simply have them under the control of world governments where conflict would still occur? Tony felt guilty that’s why he signed, if he simply took responsibility he’d have pushed for the accords sooner. Whatever Tony envisioned as is irrelevant because if not for Tony ultron wouldn’t have been able to make those decisions. I’m also not worried about blaming banner either. while he did at least attempt to stop Tony from making ultron he ultimately played a role in his creation, not as big a role as Tony but still a role.
@@hughjanus3562 I do agree that they should have disbanded instead of fighting each other but the Avengers are still needed so that’s not really an option they have. Thanos comes to earth regardless so they still need to be together to at least have a fight chance. We saw what happened when they were separated (they still could have won their first encounter with Thanos but u get the picture) if they were together that fight probably would have ended much differently.
I cant really blame cap for not telling tony i mean he was constantly on missions then you have the ultron problem and him trying to find croobone so there was not a right time yo tell tony
The take people have of "Steve and Bucky jumped an orphan who just lost his parents" is wild. All I can conclude is they haven't actually watched the movie and only saw a clip or something. Not just that Bucky was brainwashed or that Tony started that fight. Its also that Tony's parents had been dead for *25 years* at that point and Tony was nearly *50*. He wasn't some young kid who just lost his parents days earlier. He's a grown-ass man whose parents died a quarter century earlier. He's much older that T'Challa who had lost his father only one day before, and yet T'Challa quickly rose above his desire for revenge.
Sensing a theme here. Sokovia.. Caused by killer robot made by Tony to show he could. They need the Tony Accords to keep an eye on Mister Stark. And on the.. Bucky killing Tony's parents - Steve suspected it, but never had any proof. Bucky had no memory of it, Cap had no evidence. No newspaper clippings, no security footage, no notes of Bucky's deployment.. He had suspicions, but nothing beyond them. Cap really had nothing he -could- tell Tony. I'd like to think that if he did he would have said so. But at least onscreen there's nothing show to indicate that Cap had any evidence for said suspicion. And if one wants to get hyper-technical Tony violates the Accords by going to Siberia by setting up a decoy of him being on his plane so as soon as they inconvenience him they're out the window.. Whereas technically he should have passed it along to Ross and gotten authorization to pursue...
Tony really did like to do whatever Tony wanted and ignored anything to the contrary. His betrayal of the accords makes his betrayal of the rest of the Avengers that much worse. The Accords were written and passed in large because of Ultron, which Tony created without informing the team or asking their opinion. He had a momentary feeling of guilt, shifting that guilt onto everyone else, made sure they signed their freedom away, and then just ignored the accords himself. What an ass.
Ultimately what gets me a lot about Tony here is his hypocricy. If he had abided by said Accords at least he would have believed in them. But the fact at the first moment of convenience he specifically broke them shows how little he cared for them. There's also very much the way he introduced them to the team. It was already negotiated, he gave them no real time to review the accords (we see what are clearly several hundred pages) and have an honest discussion before he's applying a lot of pressure to them (and mild threats). If the Accords were necessary and an issue, then Tony should have gotten together with the team, they should all have sat down with the Security Council (or whomever had jurisdiction) and negotiated it amongst them all. Not him just dropping it on all of them with no real time to actually read the materials and demand they agree to it. There's also him working in concert with Thaddeus "Thunderbolt" Ross who wanted to vivisect his science bro Bruce but that's ane ntirely different concern here.
I was team Cap in Civil war, but Iron man is still the GOAT Avenger. Sacrificed himself in every film including the ultimate sacrifice and he paid for everything to facilitate the avengers.
What's really fucked up is that people were saying Bucky DESERVED TO DIE! for killing the starks despite being brainwashed. I tell them about the brainwashing and they just still say "well he still did it".
What mainly pissed off Tony is because Steve knew and chose not to tell. Here's a question: what if Tony never saw the recording, would Steve take this information to his grave?
I mean to be fair tho here is another question if Tony never saw the recording and Steve told him about what Bucky did do you think tony wouldn't go kill Bucky ? But yeah he should have told him much earlier before civil war
@@Idk_idc_0916 After Tony watched the video, he wanted to attack Bucky, but Steve held him back. Steve can't hold the armor but his presence stop Tony, for a few seconds. It's only after Steve admits of withholding the truth, his friend, his father's friend, betraying his trust, that's when Tony snapped. Which is a recurring theme in Tony's life. I don't think Tony would've reacted the same way if Steve told the truth, however he wouldn't allow Bucky to become a fugitive. It would be an arrest instead of an attempted murder. It's a big What If.
Also, almost at the end of the movie, Steve admitted to Tony in a letter that he made a mistake in keeping Tony´s parents murderer´s identity a secret. And Steve didn´t do it because he wanted to, he did it because he thought he was protecting Tony yet realized that he was only sparing himself.
The writers must've forgotten this when making Endgame, since in that movie, Iron Man blamed Cap for not being there when he needed him. Like, dude, Cap reached out to you but you chose not to answer. And now you're pissed?
@@jvbutalid8316 the writers didn't forget. that speech was improvised by rdj. tony was supposed to tell steve he was sorry and reconcile with him, but rdj didn't like that so he improvised that whole mess.
In short: Iron Man wanted them to be regulated. Everything here falls apart if he would just think about regulating themselves, put rules in place to be a part of Avengers, but no, he wanted a corrupt government to make them do their dirty bidding for owns profit instead of good. He should know that since hes a billionaire and a past weapons manufacturer which are the most corrupt so he should've been familiar with them
When Civil War came out I was 11 so I barely understood the plot and just liked all the fighting so I was originally on Tony’s side bc I like him more but when I rewatched it I converted to Steve’s side cause he was right
Why would giving government control over the super heroes actually be a good thing? All the complaints are about collateral damages and casualties when the avengers fight avenger level threats. And in the comic if I remember correctly it was about a hero group failing to stop a bombing by a mutant with steroids. How would working for the government changed these outcomes?
Of course Tony is wrong. The literal second the accords posed a hindrance to him, he ignored them. The issue here was not that we shouldn't have some oversight for supers, it was that the side most might agree with IRL is presented by a man who's heart was only in it due to a previous mishap.
You've hit the nail on the proverbial head. The guy talking about "Accountability" is the very one who breaks the rules without consequences as soon as it becomes inconvenient. Which basically makes the whole idea of accountability a joke.
im late af but another important thing with Cap and Bucky was that he had just buried Peggy at the beginning of the movie One of the very few connections from his past life is now 6 ft underground and he was not going to let that happen again with Bucky Civil War is such a great movie, it's sad to see how far Marvel has fallen from grace
I don't even blame Steve for not telling Tony about his parents. We watch in real time how that goes over. Tony is historically known for being impulsive and unpredictable. That's literally the entire plot of Age Of Ultron. Now granted, it would probably be different if Bucky wasn't right in front of Tony, but it is reasonable to fear the worst. I don't agree with what he did, but I think it's pretty hard to blame Steve for doing it. That's a difficult position to be in.
The lesson I got from it was you can't force Captain America. He stands tall and when he says no in either accords or Bucky situation, you just have to respect it. Both were fully right but when Cap says No, Tony wants to use force.
I like that you brought up that Cap just wanted safeguards(5:11). It highlights a problem that is consistent on the United Nations/Tony's side, the refusal to work together. United Nations wanted them to shut up and obey. There was no negotiations or compromises made. It was either Tony's way or the highway.
While I do like Civil War, I am also 100% Team Cap because the alternative just sucks ass. Tony was only being so insistent about the Accords because he was projecting his guilt onto everyone else. Ultron was almost entirely HIS fault and after being confronted by a direct victim of HIS fuck-up, he decides the Avengers should be government slaves to make himself feel better. Not to mention how almost his entire team was only helping for their own personal reasons, the only guy on Team Iron Man that was just there to help Tony was Rhodey. Meanwhile all of Team Cap were there out of genuine loyalty to Steve. I mean shit, Tony had the audacity to get pissy at Cap for getting Hawkeye to help him - as if Clint wasn't a grown-ass man who can make his own choices - when Tony had blackmailed a FUCKING TEENAGER into going to Germany with him and fighting AT LEAST Captain America, Falcon and the goddamned Winter Soldier. Who Tony still believes to be a willing mass-murderer at this point. Tony signed the Accords so he could be responsible for once, then he goes and enlists a fucken 15-year-old to fight murderous super-soldiers? What the fuck Tony?
I'm happy that Tony was given a real reason to hunt down Bucky.
The movie is not comic accurate but very well written
@@WasiuGiwa-ul4hsweell there's some weird plot holes like vision barely doing anything in the airport but it is a really good movie
@@jersont.3339I imagine he refrained to cause less damage and prevent the deaths of any Avengers, he was ridiculously strong.
@@TheRealVenom448Yeah, Tony says they were "going easy on them", then Vision shows up.
I think the implication is that they called Vision on because they were no longer holding back.
If it was comic accurate, and now that the X-Men are in the MCU, it should’ve been Wolverine since Bucky killed his wife Itsu in 1940’s-1950’s, and “killed” his unborn son
Literally everyone on Tony's team turned against the Sokovia Accords by the end of the movie and people still argue he was right aint no way
I mean, we never really knew how T’Challa ended up feeling about the accords.
@Evoker23-lx8mb the fact wakanda hid itself from the world would tell me he'd be against it
@@zeeski7454 Wakanda revealing itself to the world was literally the entire point of the first Black Panther film.
@@Evoker23-lx8mb T'Challa wasn't really on Tony's team- he was more his own man, acting for his own purposes.
@Evoker23-lx8mb The first black panther came out AFTER Civil War
One line that always gets looked over is when Tony in all his grief asks Bucky “Do you even remember them?” And Bucky responded with “I remember all of them”, he never wanted to do those things, he practically wasn’t even Bucky during that moment.
Sebastian Stan actually suggested that was a lie. That Bucky didn't, in fact, remember all his kills, and only said that because it was what he thought Tony wanted to hear. He figured one of them wasn't going to get out of the facility alive, and would prefer Tony kill him than Steve.
@@englishlady9797dont remember him saying that, but even so the falcon and winter solider show indicates he remembers them and recalls them in his nightmares
@@ryanneale6501 Yes but that show is full of silly retcons anyway so I don't count anything it says.
According to it Bucky never had memory loss and was working for HYDRA willingly the whole time. Both of which aren't accurate or true.
Also look at the context. He's basically trying to scare Karlii into not doing bad stuff.
I don't think the writers of the series watched anything other than Civil War. 😂
@@englishlady9797 You said it yourself though: "Sebastian Stan actually suggested that was a lie." He SUGGESTED that it was a lie. That's the magic word that indicated it could be a future plot point but decided against it.
@@englishlady9797 " that show is full of silly retcons anyway so I don't count anything it says" - not how it works I'm afraid, Batman not killing people is originally a retcon, so I guess we should ignore that from now on too huh?. And I'd rather believe the show writers than a random online with no proof Stan ever said that. Like it or not, the show is part of the universes canon.
Even Tony wasn't about the Sokovia Accords.
Fr, by the end of the movie Tony already ignored the Accords so the Avengers could go free lol.
And I don't even understand why Spiderman wouldn't have had to register. Was it only for the Avengers and that's it? Doesn't really make sense
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lpBecause he was a 15 yr old he knew that him being applied wouldn't go well for him so he purposely kept him out
@@Skips10 but he recruited him for war at 15?
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lpThat 15 year old could stop a car with his bare hands
You think he was wrong in Civil War, wait till you hear how wrong Captain Marvel is in Civil War 2...
We have a guy that can see the future and stop crimes before they happen. He is right normally, the test to see if he can see the future should have been what are the winning lotery numbers guess right we trust you guess wrong your off the team, he would guess 5/6 numbers.
@daraghokane4236 what's crazy is he wasn't even the first character to have that power, but they're acting like all of a sudden it's a problem. Never made sense.
@@daraghokane4236 , his super powers is the same as Basic Observational Haki from One Piece, so of course I side with Tony in Civil War 2 that he shouldn't make the nation a police state by the slight possibility of the future being wrong.
@@daraghokane4236his super powers show him images with no context
@@mups4016 I like the idea that in dc and marvel just like real life there are tons of people that think they can see the future or have some power but don't. Superman saves people from a fire and one goes I knew you would show up then superman goes convinced there pysic and trusts them on everything.
The best part about Steve not telling Tony is: Even when Cap is wrong, he's right. He said it from the jump: People have agendas, and agendas change. Even Cap is like "Don't think I'm infallible. I'm not. Don't do everything I say because you think I'm perfect. I can lie. I can keep secrets."
Well you’re just lying cuz he did exactly the opposite of what you’re saying but let’s just glaze Cap just cuz
@ What did he say/do the opposite that I said?
@@Just_Some_Guy_with_a_Mustache you’re last two sentences and the quote he quite literally did the opposite lol he brought Clint back who was on retirement given where his safe house is at there’s no way he would’ve known what was happening unless Cap had told him and Antman
@@jackcable1028 I think we're having two different conversations here.
The main Civil War comic was a complete mess (I hear that the tie ins were much better). I'm pretty impressed by how much better MCU did this story
Yeah the characters were jerks in the Civil War comic, they’re supposed to be role models, they shouldn’t resort to violence every time.
By making iron man not be a literal supervillian
They were stupid@@comicbookking3446
Exactly! Tony is much more complex and interesting unlike his comic counterpart where he hired literal supervillains -_-
@@johans3164 that was Maria Hill, not Tony.
The Avengers weren't responsible for Sokovia, Tony was.
He was projecting his own guilt onto everyone else.
Spot on (but Wanda was definitely not a help).
That's not true, Wanda was literally Ultrons henchman. Tony made Ultron by accident but Wanda consciously helped Ultron enact his plan, she's more responsible for Sokovia than Tony ever was.
Plus everything Tony was saying was proven correct by the events of Wandavision and Multiverse of Madness
@@prolastmedia6171 he didnt make ultron from accident lol but i see your point
@@prolastmedia6171I don't agree that Wanda was more responsible for Ultron, that an exaggeration seeing that she only helped him get vibranium from Klaw and fight the Avengers once. Ultron is Tony's sole responsibility especially cause he was made without the rest of the Avengers knowing what he was doing.
Wandavision happened when the avengers disbanded. I blame the surviving Avengers and Doctor Strange for Westview as much as I blame Wanda. But Ultron? Nah bruv, that Tony and Bruce's fault all the way
Uh
Wanda ,bruce and quicksilver weren't any better 💀
I'm happy that two Iconic characters debuted in the MCU. Black Panther & Spider-Man.
They were written so well in Civil War. Honestly, didn't like how they were portrayed in their own movies.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lpspiderman specifically cause they honed on the "Awh Geez Mr. stark!"
@@kadewade8726 they turned Spiderman into Jimmy Olsen with Superpowers. We skipped the origin story, only for them to do an origin story anyway. What a waste of a trilogy.
@DavidMartinez-ce3lp Oh man you weren't there. Audiences didn’t want a third retelling of the same story and back in the day, audiences were pleasantly suprised for not retreading again. Can't be mad when literally everyone asked for it
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp Forreal... T'Challa was a complex, interesting character in Civil War and they made him kind of a goof in his own movie like WTH were the writers doing. Homecoming wasn't as bad but they kept making him too much of a Tony Stark fanboy and I kinda didn't mess w it seeing as he was already taking on hero work before he was found.
Ngl I’m still team cap but I get Tony’s reasonings
EDIT FIRST TIME 1K LIKES AAAYYYYYY THANKS YALL
Tony didn't have reasoning. He had guilt.
@jointkay-y5i a good reasoning
@@jointkay-y5iguilt is how Spider-Man became a hero
@draiocht1979 nope Peter's guilt caused him to hunt down Uncle Ben's killer. Uncle Ben's responsibility speech is what made him a hero.
@@jointkay-y5iThe fact Tony's ideology totally influenced by that Black woman at the start of the movie is totally stupid . Like you can't guilt trip a superhero and completely change his ideology into believing that government is right. It's the same man who said he not gonna give secret formula of his suits to the government in Ironman 2 . This feels so out of pocket for his character
In that final fight, Cap was trying to save Bucky from Tony. But in addition Cap was also trying to stop Tony from killing an innocent man. Hydra is responsible for killing Tony's parents. They just used Bucky as a weapon. He is innocent. Heck, he is a victim of Hydra as well.
Though That's true and I agree with that at the end of the day bucky is still the one who shot them mind control or not he was still the one who physically did the act
@@LouisBerina are you being serious? He had no control over his actions. If someone with mind control powers forced you to kill someone, is it your fault? Should you be punished as the murderer?
Tony wasn't just angry that he killed his mom, Tony felt betrayed when Cap lied to him. That's when he lost it. Tony can be rational and was rational when he went to help Cap but once Cap also betrayed him, he wanted to go for the kill
You guys have good points on Tony' side. Tony had every right to feel the way he felt. He had just seen video footage of the man standing in front of him killing his parents. And the other man standing in front of him is his best friend who knew about it and didn't tell him. He understandably became blinded in a rage of revenge and betrayal.
The fact that that scene was so morally complex is what makes it so great.
@@ballsackschrader218yes, if you did it lmao. Its a messed up situation fs but this is a poor excuse
Cap was right about the accords
Cap was wrong for hiding the truth
Tony was right to feel rage towards the winter soldier BUT he was not justified in taking buck's life.
I mean if a men who is supposedly a stranger to you is responsible for the murder of your parents on video while he's standing right next to you in that very moment you wouldn't gaf about mind control and only resort to hands and cap didn't make it any better when he knew about this all the long which made tony want to kill bucky even more
Neither was Bucky in running and hiding from him about it
@@spadesofpaintstudios1719 “I don’t care, he killed my mom”. When you hear that quote in regard to a crime you had no control over, RUN.
@@cynthiamorisson458 Still not justified. I mean you’d think someone as smart as Tony would realize that this man was not the culprit in his parents deaths and certainly didn’t want them dead, and that Hydra was. And he CLEARLY saw that this was the case all while completely and purposefully ignoring this context.
@@sohrtresort20 thats just it.... Stark DOES know Bucky was brainwashed and not in control.... he called him "Manchurian Candidate" 5 minutes before throwing down. For those unaware.... The Manchurian Candidate is a movie about brainwashing.
We ever think about how Zemo indirectly helped Thanos by breaking up the Avengers?
No.
Yes that was the whole point
It wouldn't have mattered if they were all together anyways. If anything if they never split they would have been too weak to fight Thanos during the invasion. add onto the fact that the avengers are slower to accept teammates as a group, they go full military protocol and there would have been no time for that(Example: Meeting the guardians and Thor for the first time)
If anything he helped make earth strong enough to face Thanos.
Why do people believe this crap...Thanos would've won either way.hes bad like that
@@SPECTRA890 you think Zemo's whole point was to indirectly help an alien he didn't know existed?
The thing is that Tony supported the accords because he wanted to throw his responsibilities as a hero to the government just so he wouldn't feel bad when his decisions blew up in his face. Meanwhile Cap understood that every individual must hold the responsibilities of their own actions and that letting someone else make the decisions for them won't expedite them from said responsibilities.
Ironically this is the same reason most people want a government, to have someone else make the decisions for them so they don't have to to the point that they turn a blind eye to all the crap the system does just so they can keep the illusion of being free from their own responsibility.
I agree. Mrs Spencer confronting him in Civil War after he gave his speech to students demonstrated to him that, because he built Ultron, he's still guilt and remorse motivated like in Iron man 1 when the soldiers who escorted him in the desert got killed with his own weapons. Back to square one.
I just wrote a long independent comment about how this finds parallels, calls back to, sets up more things. And it is amazing that
We DC fans feel more grown up having had the Cadmus arc and the calm Darkseid find their cinematic equivalent in the Avengers and the Sokovia accords Shield etc and the rarely enraged Thanos.
@@Arovna , Darkseid is the Thanos of the DC universe, but even with a government making illegal clones of Superman that didn't save the world from Superman and Darkseid nearly destroying the world in the Earth 2 comics from the New 52 tie in comics, so both Marvel and DC I don't trust the government in those comics like I do in the Invincible comics.
@@RoronoaZoro-ur6hr i had meant to write DCAU fans, and MCU fans (til endgame). I'm sorry I dont read the comics.
@@Arovna , even in the DCAU I hated Amanda Waller, but I only gotten into the DC comics and Invincible comics fairly recently, so I haven't read all of those comics like I have with the Marvel comics.
"I was just following orders"
Wow, dude's like a cowardly irresponsible Nuremberg Trial German officer or smth 😱😱😱🫥
People often forget that Steve read the entire Sokovia Accords before making his decision he didn't read part of it or most of it he read all of it and then Steve was like yeah I'm good, so yeah I'm taking Steve side not just because he's worked for the US Government and he knows how these mofos think and operate but again he actually read the entire Sokovia Accords.
"Whoaaa! STEVE READ A DOCUMENT??? THAT MUST MEAN HES CORRECT" 😂
Steve's perspective was just flat out wrong, there's no argument to can make against that. Yeah the Sokovia Accords weren't perfect but they were a first step on what could've turned into a much better system, if Steve had actually bothered to stay and help instead of running away to hang out with his little boyfriend
@@prolastmedia6171I’m convinced some people just saw the title and ran straight into the comments. Tony was right to crash out over his parents that’s about it
@@prolastmedia6171 just say you lack basic comprehension dawg lmao
@@prolastmedia6171 Tony was right that the Heroes need to be put in check and regulated but it shouldn't have been through the accords. Tony want the Avengers to become complete slaves to the UN, the most evil group in the world.
Cap wasn't completely against it as shown in he video but he wanted safe guards. Tony on the other hand said "We need to be put in check, whatever form that takes i'm game." Cap was willing to compromise while Tony wasn't.
In the real would you wouldn't want their to be superpowered group of people policing the world while following NO rules. The Avengers is a Private miliary doing whatever they wanted where ever they wanted.
.
If you look up the Accords you'd understand that it was a bunch a civil rights violations and should've been thrown out.
Cap didn't know until watching that video that Bucky specifically killed Tony's parents, he only knew that Hydra did it and framed it as a car crash.
He knew the whole time and didn’t tell Tony, that’s the whole thing. Steve knew for a while and didn’t bother to tell Tony.
@@topspinbot5777He only knew that Tony’s parents where killed. He could have assumed it was Bucky but he never could have been sure. If you think I’m wrong when did he find out?
@@ultrachim7080 I haven’t seen the movie in a while but I think that it was implied that Steve knew. So I can’t confirm that ur right or wrong but it really doesn’t matter fr.
@@topspinbot5777 No Steve only new Hydra had a hand in killing Tony's parents because in Winter Soldier, When Steve told Zola 'Someone would've been found out about Hydra'
Zola replied with we have ways of accidents happening,'(I'm paraphrasing here) before showing Ateve the article of Howard and Maria's death
So no Steve didn't know that Bucky specifically killed Tony's parents
@@ultrachim7080 You are not wrong, he knew Hydra did it, but he didn't know it was Bucky until Civil War when Bucky told him, but he wouldn't tell Tony either because he was so busy running away from him.
I have an issue with Tony black mailing a 15yo kid from Queens to help him fight super-powered criminals and inducted him partly as an avenger. Imagine if he was killed or severely injured and Tony has to explain to aunt may why that happened. This happens in the same movie where tony is confronted by a grieving mother about how his creation killed her son.
It’s recklessness on Tony’s part, which is proper characterization for him at that moment. He’s faulty and going through it
but he didnt blackmail him also hes from queens
@@furiousfizzypop7549 Tony went to Peter’s house and told him that he knew his secret, something that Peter desperately hides from everyone including his aunt. Tony says come to Germany, Peter says that he has responsibilities with school, Tony says “I’m gonna pretend I didn’t hear that,” Tony says Peter is joining him or he’s gonna tell Aunt May Peter’s secret. Peter also really looks up to Tony and sees him as a father figure and Tony uses his status to make Peter oblige. Sure Peter does get some injuries from cap, but he excuses them as getting in a fight with other kids. Peter could’ve absolutely been killed though had caps team not held back as much as they did and Peter was lucky not to get in direct fights with more dangerous members of team cap. Scarlet Witch, Bucky, Ant-man, and Hawkeye could’ve killed him had they not been fighting other characters as well as Spider-man playing safe. Team Tony had more in-fights than cap with Black Widow betraying the gov’t and Vision missing Falcon and hitting Rhodey which caused his crippling. Hell T’Challa wasn’t with the gov’t he just wanted to kill Bucky, imagine if Peter accidentally got in the way, BP could’ve killed him. Tony is not in the right.
@@furiousfizzypop7549”Help me in Germany or I’ll tell your aunt that you’re Spider-Man.” That sounds A LOT like blackmail
Cap did the exact same thing dude? "Wandas just a kid". Cap is a huge hypocrite in this movie
Honestly both sides are in the wrong if we’re being deadass outside of sokovia accords Tony didn’t need to kill Bucky because he was brainwashed but Cap didn’t need to keep that truth from Tony until Civil War.. also let’s not act like anyone of us wouldn’t crash out if you saw the person who killed your mother..
Yeah Tony was more angry at Steve for keeping the truth about his parents but Bucky was brainwashed for doing it
Yeah I’ll be the first to admit that if i was tony, more likely than I would’ve crashed out like he did. But that doesn’t mean it was the right thing to do. Just because u can understand a persons feelings doesn’t mean it makes their actions the morally right actions. There’s a reason why they had tchalla not kill zemo, it showed that tchalla had more self control than tony. How tchalla acted is what Tony should’ve acted but tony let his emotions get the best of him. Again I’m not saying Tony wasn’t justified for being mad and upset but that doesn’t take away from that fact that he was about to murder an innocent man. Yes bucky is innocent no matter how u spin it ok. Mind control is a real thing in the fictional world. Facts are facts at the end of the day and Tony literally got mad at gun instead of the person that shot the gun.
honestly, who cares about that, the real question is about whether Tony was right to try and restrict the liberty that Superheros had as vigilantes or whether Cap was right to want Supers to be self governing and not accountable.
@@prolastmedia6171 who cares about that?? That was the whole main drive from both parties in the third act of the film.. the Sokovia Accords are just as important and once again both are wrong. Cap wants a world where the Avengers can do whatever whenever disregarding civilian life Tony wants the opposite but they have to work with the government
@@smokedsanjlNo, no, Cap wants a world where the Avengers are accountable to each other....accountability is still there and present just not to a government or higher power and after Winter soldier, my guy.....do you blame him?
On top of that, Tony doesn't want the opposite per say, Tony just wants them to be held accountable by a government which to be honest. Is a dumb idea especially after the best plan they could come up with for the battle of new York being nuke the place. After that Hail Hydra in Winter Soldier. After that Damage Control being being compromised.
My dude, in this particular aspect of the argument. Cap is right, they just needed a better internal system of accountability as a private organization. Cause in fact, the safest hands were their own.....until they broke up after endgame again lol
What's wild is that Tony & Steve had an interesting perspective on their respective stances:
-Tony was the one confronted by the mother of one of the victims in Sokovia. He literally had to stare down someone who blamed HIM for her son's death due to the events of Ultron. No other Avenger was there alongside him to share in that blame/guilt.
-Steve was on the run from S.H.I.E.L.D. in Winder Solider and learned he couldn't trust the government due to Hydra's infiltration. Sam & Natasha were along for the ride in this one, but remember Steve had such a belief in his country and the powers that be prior to even gaining his superhuman abilities. He woke up in a world not like the one he remembers and his allegiance to his country was shattered after that movie (and even more in Civil War). I have no doubt he would easily be the one most against the Accords due to NOT wanting the government to be in charge of the Avengers because for all they know there are other Hydra operatives in the ranks!
Both could be described as 'selfish' with their actions. You could say Steve was in terms of protecting Bucky, BUT that really has nothing to do with the Accords themselves. He was against them even before Black Panther's father was murdered. Tony was projecting HIS guilt for the events of Age of Ultron onto everyone else and it wasn't fair! In the long run, he was right about Wanda though...
Tony was self projecting in a 'Tony knows best...' kinda way and it didn't work...
To be fair though, Tony is the only one that should be confronted with that blame and guilt, HE created Ultron. Sure the Avengers were at Sokovia and part of the fight, but the only reason Sokovia fell was because of Ultron's plan, and Ultron only existed because Tony decided to try making another super bot.
@@Mailpaper06 you’re not wrong
@@Mailpaper06 Wanda brainwashed him into making ultron
@@snowmann. No Wanda just put fear into his head which lead to his decision to make Ultron. Wanda may have pushed it, but Tony made him under his own free will.
Accurate.
It all comes together by Infinity War and Endgame, Tony’s character fully develops
I choose Team Captain America any day.
I think I do too as yes cap did lie and it's bad but he lied to save Bucky from dying. Something Tony should understand. I'm sure Steve would do the same for Tony too.
@@SOM-v4o He wouldn't. If he actually gave a damn about Tony, he would have told him before any of this happened.
@Seoul_Soldier He didn't want to see his friend die who had no control of his actions. Wanda helped make Tony make ultron but cap still stood by his side even though they did have a argument about him.
As long it's Civil war and there's team Cap, i side with it
I choose Team Neither because both Team Iron Man and Team Captain America are wrong.
One thing that instantly makes the movie Civil War better than the Comic event itself is that characters like Tony Stark, and others, aren’t bastardized and written wildly out of character for no reason. Which basically made it less of a “who do you side with?” and more of a “Tony is fucking wild and on some supervillain type shit”.
So, I’m glad to see a proper take on this event of these two opposing forces actually having legitimate reasons within their genuine character.
The issue with this is that MCU Iron Man, isn’t Comic Iron Man. They’re not the same character writing wise, so course they’re gonna act different from what their intentions in the Civil War story.
Ultimate Alliance 2 felt far more legitimate in that regard. Not completely even, but it wasn’t just one sided. And at the end, they teamed up together and took down the big bad orchestrating the events, and righted their wrongs
HISHE Cap said it best about the nuke missile, "What was that gonna do? Shower New York with hugs?"
Two wrongs don't make a right tho. Tony's point isn't invalidated because of the actions of the American government in a completely separate incident
@@prolastmedia6171bro wah?
Ok, let's try the Hydra incident which runs deep in almost every government in the world. Tony's point is completely invalidated because he want to trust the same people who have proven themselves corrupt and untrustworthy in most installments of the franchise😂😂😂😂😂😂, brother please😂😂😂
@@InnuendicThoughts yep. "The government wouldn't do that." Yes, Yes they would.
Bro thinks working for one of the most corrupt organisations without any checks or balances is good idea.
@@gayanudugampola8973 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂dude😂😂😂
Like mans, even if I were to agree that the avengers need to be held accountable for their stuff........trusting the government in this universe would bring more problems than solutions😂😂😂😂😂
I think the best compromise I've seen was how the justice league operated in YJ and even then they got hoe'd when Lex Luthor got into the UN. This system doesn't work😂😂😂😂😂
@@InnuendicThoughts Literally, Young Justice was the best example of why a scenario like the Sokovia Accords wouldn’t work. The UN would stall whichever superhero group out, especially with corrupt individuals all throughout each governmental body within each country apart of the UN and the cherry on top is they all have different agendas; most countries wouldn’t want basically a special military force from the UN coming within their countries to try and help or solve their issues.
This all would happen with or without the influence of people like Lex Luthor, Amanda Waller, Nick Fury, Thunderbolt Ross, and different organizations (organizations like Cadmus, The Light, League of Assassins in DC; organizations like Hydra, Shield & Sword, and The Hand in Marvel) making the process more difficult for the JL/Titans or Avengers/X-Men/etc (other spinoff teams).
We barely figure out or solve the world’s issues with our own UN and people think a superhero/supervillain world wouldn’t make it even harder to come to a consensus? 🤦🏽♂️💀
Comic version of Tony Stark/Iron Man are far worse!
While I loved the Civil War comics and even Civil War II unironically😂 yeah its definitely character assassination one on one and really made Tony look like an absolute monster
In the ultimate alliance 2 game even worse as because of both conflicts lead to the end of the world literally.
Yes, I agree.
@@gayema664No it’s not. The game doesn’t make Iron Man Worse, as it removes the parts from the comic that made him terrible in the storyline itself.
@@ShockwaveFPSStudios i meant like the after effects of their conflicts were worse as it lead to the end of the world.
Tony was only half right in the film, had he not tried to kill Bucky he would’ve been able to convince Steve and the others to join the accords, that being said, Steve is wise to mention that the accords were at risk of corrupt politicians taking control of the Avengers.
But he was right in trying to kill bucky in the emocional side of things
@@microcelltechnicalassistencehe wasn’t right, but he was understandable
@@emmarosedewittbukater i meant in a pure emocional Sense he was right, is the same as saying that although its understandable its not something you should do logically or legally, i Just used weird words
The UN was over the Avengers in the comics for a while, and it was complete disaster. Just like Cap said in the film, there were times when the Avengers were needed and the UN wouldn't let them act. This lead to serious fallout that rippled across the Marvel Universe; particularly affecting the X-Men, some Avengers members, and mutant relations in general.
@@navy0287 Touche’, even the Marvel Ultimate Universe (early 2000s) was a perfect example why the military shouldn’t oversee SuperHumams to begin with.
I might've been alone in it but I was 100% team Captain America. I've always respected his perspective of "holding a gun to people's head isn't creating peace, but fear" and Steve was absolutely right that if higher powers control them then they have to obey their orders above doing what is right is the accords went through. From the perspective of Tony, who has never had a leash and desperately wishes he had one, he doesn't know what that feels like. Meanwhile Steve, who's thought of himself as a dancing monkey, understands what this means.
The answer, in my opinion, was not that they needed a leash, they needed a netting. Something that protected the general public from them, which was what S.H.I.E.L.D. was supposed to be in the first place. They should've done everything they could to unite and make something to protect the public from THEM without putting a leash on. That's my two cents though.
Shield should've been a part of Civil War, especially since they're the ones that brought the Avengers together in the first place.
If you're referring to the comics, it was: SHIELD created the "Cape-Killers" strike teams to either arrest or kill heroes who were against registration.
@@ShiningT1g3R I'm talking about the MCU. Shield and Fury directly brought the team together in the first Avengers movie.
By the time Captain America Civil War came out, SHIELD was still around thanks to Age of Ultron and Agents of SHIELD, so I don’t know why they weren’t involved with the movie’s plot.
At least in Ultimate Alliance 2, SHIELD was actually the main starting point regarding the two Teams.
@@ShockwaveFPSStudios yes, exactly what I was thinking! Shield just sort of disappeared.
Nothing will ever make what happened to John Walker justified, and it just character assassinates Falcon and Bucky.
I just find it crazy how often TeamCap people have shown that they can understand the TeamTony reasoning while still showing clear holes in the logic, while in contrast TeamTony people *_STILL_* to this day will show that they are incapable of understanding where TeamCap is coming from.
Honestly I think it's because the majority of Tony fans refuse to believe Tony can ever be wrong no matter what. Or responsible for his actions.
@englishlady9797 Frankly, that's a bit scary, especially because it also comes off as projection from them.
@@SockieTheSockPuppet I agree. There are whole vids dedicated to showing how many crimes and felonies Tony commited in his time- well beyond weapons dealing. He discharged his weapons whilst drunk at a party in Iron Man 3 I mean *what?*
He took a literal child into combat in Civil War and that's without considering the millions of deaths he caused in Segovia or the fact his father was basically responsible for the infilration of SHIELD because he hired known Nazi war criminals.
They're always saying "oh the Avengers must be held accountable!" but you notice that Tony hihmself is *never* held accountable? For anything. *Ever*. I think Tony fans are just trying to make themselves feel better for stanning a narcissistic war criminal with few scruples who gets away with his actions because he's billionaire. And sucked up to corrupt poliitcians.
@englishlady9797 I feel like you went too far with that. Like why him being white, an American, and a billionaire, what has that got do with anything? Especially his skin color?
I'm focusing on Tony's belief ultimately in more government control (or rather him being in control, at times) is a major part of his personality problem shared with these people, narcissism needless to be said.
@@SockieTheSockPuppet Yeah maybe. Though his being a billionaire is relevant as it allows him to basically buy his way out of trouble if he needs to. Also people who suck up to governments can often get away with bad stuff if they do what that government wants though that doesn't apply exclusovely to Americans at all.
Yeah, its also interesting how the whole thing in Civil War is started by a woman confronting Tony over her son's death in Segovia.
She says that she wants him to face the consequences but hasn't got any legal means of making sure that happens. Its almost the same with Zemo (though I am not one of those "actually Zemo isn't bad" peopl since he murdered innocents in pursuit of his goals).
I think Tony was more interested in making it *look* like he was being held accountable, even if that meant throwing others under the bus, then actually *being* accountable. It is basically the easy way out though as it costs him nothing really. it is others who have to suffer and make sacrifices.
The not wanting to be responsible or held responsible does seem to be a shared personality trait, but God help you if you hurt Tony. Also not seeming to care about consequences for others.
I used to be on Team Iron Man, but the more I thought about it, the more Captain America made more sense. Especially when you consider The Winter Soldier and the corruption in the government. (And yes, I was blindsided by Black Panther and Spider-Man.)
A lot of people are blindsided by that too. The biggest fan of Iron-Man would not side with Team Cap.
I hope you make more "[marvel character] was WRONG" videos because the fact people unironically think Thanos was right for wiping out countless lives when he had infinite power and definitely better options, or the guy who's basically Marvel's Victor Zsasz are the "true heroes" of their stories is so ludicrous.
I find that comic book fans (or, at least, people who call themselves comic book fans when I'm 90% sure they've never picked up an actual comic book) have the most braindead takes. Siding with the villain just because they have some nihilistic take doesn't make you seem cool, it just makes you look like you've never outgrown your middle school edgelord phase.
@@sunflowerboinagachikayeah always that one edgy sob
Although Iron Man was in the wrong in this movie at least he didn’t clone a God, hired super villains to his side and imprisoned heroes in the Negative Zone.
When did Injustice Superman clone a god?
@Mustafa_AhmedPGH not Superman, those were all things tony did in the Civil War comic. He was pretty fucking wild, sometimes you questioned if he was a hero or flat out villain atp.
He basically imprisoned heroes, he was the reason Sam, Wanda and Clint were arrested by General Ross
Imprisoned heroes without a trial, even.
2:48 that scene right there proves why Steve is Captain America.
He truly values the freedoms that the Constitution/Bill of Rights entails. So much so that he doesn’t want the avengers to be controlled by the very government they work with and protect.
Captain America is my beautiful anti-federalist Thomas Jefferson-pilled king. We have no Hamilton fans out here
No one's going to say anything about Tony. Stark blackmailing Peter Parker into going to Germany to fight against Captain America and his team. That's just weird.
I also think about that and how greedy peter was that he willing to fight cap without understanding the whole situation
Nobody going to say anything about Zemo. Its funny who people are always harping on about Tony's parents this, Tony's parents that... but the death of Zemo's wife and kid which Tony caused by means of Ultron was the real catalyst for everything that happened in Civil War.
Thank you!!!! I am so sick of this debate, especially when all the Tony supports bring up the end fight with no context of the entire movie. As if Cap and Bucky were jumping him for no reason. Not to mention, during the whole fight, both Cap and Bucky were not trying to kill Tony or for any death blows while Tony nearly took Bucky's head off at least 3 times and blew his arm off making him a cripple. Watch the fight closely, and you can see Cap and Bucky just disabling Tony's suit. Also, on Twitter, it's crazy that people want to mention Bucky trying to rip out the Arc reactor, and they think that will kill Tony. Like, these people clearly don't watch the MCU because Tony took care of that problem in Ironman 3. Ripping the Arc reactor out would just disable the suit, not kill Tony. The only thing Cap did wrong was not tell Tony, but also when would've been a good time for that? Winter Soldier was 2014, and Civil War was 2016, and in between that they had to deal with Ultron in 2015. What was Steve gonna do? Invite Tony over for steaks and say, "You know my best friend Bucky? Well, Hydra brainwashed him and made him an assasin who killed over 200 people, including JFK and your parents. Want some steak sauce with that?" Tony acted out of anger, and Cap/Bucky acted out of defense but were not trying to kill Tony, but Tony was trying to kill Bucky. Cap was right.
Cap knew that Hydra killed Tony's parents ( in Winter Soldier), not that Bucky was used to do it! He found that out the same time Tony does! He says I knew but not about Bucky!
Tony is just trying to arrest Bucky, not killing him. If Tony really wants to kill Bucky, he can use missiles,lasers and whatever tech he has in his suit to do it.
@jinkaiho6128 we talking about the final battle after the airport battle and after he found out about his parents. Watch the video again. Tony went for his head plenty of times. He was out for blood. Stop lying and watch the video
@@Batman-st4hq bro, that energy blast won't kill Bucky, Bucky got shot by the energy blast once after Tony destroyed his arm, watch back the laser Tony use to block Cap, that's the weapon can kill Bucky, and he didn't used it on Bucky.
@@Batman-st4hq I agreed Cap didn't try to kill Tony, but Bucky? Not really, he pointed his gun towards Tony right after Tony slapped Cap in the face. Is not that Bucky didn't try to kill Tony, it's just that he isn't capable of killing Tony. You misconceptions of kindness and incapability.
I 100% agree with everything u said but come on 2 old ppl jumping an orphan u can’t tell me that doesn’t sound like a funny narrative 😂
Not to mention the Sokovia Accords were a blatant violation of human rights built on a political pipe dream. The world governments acted on knee-jerk prejudice and fear out of the legitimately destructive collateral damage of war being waged among civilians and turned around creating a set of mostly unenforcable rules that treated all enhanced persons, innocent or not, like second-class citizens at best and - how was it Stark phrased it? - weapons of mass destruction instead of people at worst. The worst part was you know they weren’t ever consulted in the creation of those Accords. No one tried to work with them to find a solution that bred respect and safety for all, no one considered the extreme danger those Accords would put enhanced people in, no one considered them at all except as threats to be chained and controlled, regardless of if they actually proved themselves to be dangerous. That’s not okay. The clause effectively saying they could be imprisoned without trial if they were read as a threat (read: if someone twitchy got a little spooked by them even if they did nothing wrong), is just abhorrent. It opens the door to unchecked witch hunts, and that’s exactly what followed. Unenhanced people absolutely deserve security assurances, but not like that. Those Accords needed to have been scrapped and remade with equal voices from day one. Stark had absolutely no way of knowing or understanding how this would impact the enhanced people it targeted and true to character, he didn’t even try to understand. He reacted on impulse out of guilt and dragged everyone around him down as a result. Team Cap all the way.
Thank you
So many people don’t realize that the accords aren’t even justifiable on a legal stance
@@dungeonsanddragonshomebrew3165 The bad luck that John Walker would have been subject to had he appeared in the 3rd film. Hopefully the Accords won't revive in Thunderbolts
@@nestorsifuentesaguirre2722 unless they make civil war 2 I doubt it
@@dungeonsanddragonshomebrew3165 Also the real reason I wanted Tobey Maguire's Peter Parker in the 3rd captain america film is to see if he can convince Tony to end his self pity by talking or unwillingly becoming as cold as how he was in Spider Man 3. Think about it a joke cracking guy like Maguire's Spider Man as shown in No Way Home has more convincing wisdom that Tony at this rate
People debating this like it’s not a CAPTAIN AMERICA movie.
eyowwwww
Iron Man 4
The Avengers 2.5
Captain America: Finding Zemo
The Avengers: Looking Pensive and Arguing
The Avengers: The Revenge of Sokovia
It always boggles my mind that no one in these situations brings up other cases of mind control such as Wanda controlling Banner to rampage all over Africa. Or Loki brainwashing Hawkeye fo kill however many people he killed in Avengers 1.
I know movies have to movie, but there was such a simple solution right there and it only needed words. Words that the characters themselves had. This isn't one of those situations where the audience knows something that the characters don't, no this is all onformation they have because they went through these tense and life changing moments together as a team.
Banner wasn't there to testify that fact since he was in space as the Hulk 24/7, and Loki, according to the Avengers, was being judged by the Asgardians, so again, he couldn't be there to testify.
Civil war was the first time I noticed Tony's arm trauma
Yeah that was a thing written by the Russos
If you thought Iron Man was 100% the right side you gotta go gang, bro is literally not affected by some of the biggest terms.
Not affected?? The one lady who came up to Tony in Civil War to say her son died in the battle of sokovia?? He blamed himself and the avengers for that… when his weapons was used against him and Pepper in the Ironman movies he blames himself for that. Tony just realized working with the government is a smarter handicap to withhold him from doing more bad things
@@smokedsanjlNot affected by the terms is what I wrote revealing his identity doesn’t put his family in the same danger compared to revealing Spider man’s identity as seen in the comics, you misunderstood what I wrote
@@Sid3Ball You must be talking about the comics then bcuz this wasn’t gonna happen in the movies lol. The government just wanted the avengers to work with them not reveal their identities. Comic Tony during Civil War is a different story tho
@@smokedsanjlexactly
Tony collaborating with Thunderbolt was a huge mistake and I do think the plan they came up with was morally compromised. All I'm saying is that Tony tried to do something and Cap offered no solutions, so I'm gonna side with Tony every time. That's just my POV as a proactive person but inaction in the face of an issue is morally worse than taking the wrong action in the face of an issue imo.
And again, if Steve wasn't so concerned about a single individual, he could've sat down with Tony and tried to come up with a better compromise, but because he was more concerned with Bucky than anything else, he didn't put his full attention on the larger issue
4:30 thats absolutely moronic IMO, people giving him flag for killing a terroris it beyond dumb, this was no "confused" teen. That was a terrorist with a body count, even if the method was not the best, killing him was morally right, i hated that show for trying to be morally correct when "heroes" like Captain America or Iron man have definitely killed before and nobody ever bat an eye
Sam: "Don't call them terrorist, that's not what they are"
yeah I didn’t have much of a problem with him doing it. They only stripped him of his captain america rank cause he did it so publicly. That’s not the “captain america” thing to do. If he was acting as a normal soldier, I don’t think anybody would’ve batted an eye.
I mean cap knocks foes, iron man shoot people with light.
@@aleysibbs2461 not trying to be that person but Cap technically shoots his foes too
@@Achieme you right, but he doesn't really chop them to pieces.
I understand that everybody has an opinion. My opinion is that you're wrong for thinking one side was wrong in this war.
I was Team Captain America as soon as he pointed out signing the Sokovia Accords meant the government could force them somewhere they shouldn't go and prevent them from going somewhere they should. And I kinda wish the revelation that Hydra secretly took over Shield didn't happen until this movie because then Steve Rogers could say "the only reason they want us to sign the accords is so Hydra can control us" and it would have been very interesting if Tony Stark sided with them until finding out Hydra is responsible for Bucky killing his parents.
The Avengers would have been sent by Alexandra to find Cap when he was a fugitive from shield, and they'd do it.....
While i loved the Civil War comics when i was younger years after they came out and still do the movie definitely made both sides have fair point without major character assassination and both sides were valied its not fair for the governement to constantly moniter and take away a hero's freedom but there's also case heroes need to be held accountable for their actions no matter what
Hopefully this shit about the goverment's selfish actions will have a colossal deconstruction in Thunderbolts. Because stealing stuff from the goverment that was seen in the teaser suggests for me like a rather........................... poetic revenge. Almost as if the movie seems to desire the complete extinction of the Accords. No resurrections this time as Thanos says
Stark basically became a boot licker. Trauma or not, nuking civilians is more than enough prove the feds shouldn't be trusted at all. Not to mention Hydra and the tesseract-based weapons.
Tony was wrong for trying to kill bucky (tho understandable)
Cap was wrong for not immediately telling tony what happened to his parents when he found out
Bucky is innocent he was kidnapped & brainwashed for years and when finally free gets hunted so his side is the only right side in this movie
One thing you are forgetting is that Cap knew Bucky killed him in Civil War and he wouldn't tell him at the airport and when they met at Siberia, he wouldn't tell him instantly because they were on the mission.....And I don't blame Cap at all, he and Nat knew Hydra killed Tony's parents and none of them said anything, why? they had a bigger reason for that.
@UltraBrian-e2q Also even with that. Tony's proven time and time again that he overreacts and makes things worse when presented with tough issues. I would be tempted not to tell him either. Also I remember watching in the bts of the Civil War movie, the Russo brothers said that even if Cap told Tony beforehand, he would've reacted the same way.
I do think Tony's belief in the Sokovia Accords was very understandable, given the damage superheroes in the MCU have caused and I do greatly think Tony was justified in his hatred for Steve for lying to him and about how he knew Bucky killed his parents. However I completely agree that Steve was right about Sokovia Accords and how having superheroes under government control is a bad idea and only restrict them from truly making change
Yep Iron Man was right in everything but execution
@@prolastmedia6171 Ironman build Ultron when all the avengers told him not to, so he should the one the goverment watch he is the most dangerous
@@daraghokane4236 You have never seen a mcu movie
@@daraghokane4236 Look what happened to Hawkeye and Wanda. Hawkeye murdered people for 5 movies and Wanda returned to being a Supervillain. So yeah, they need to be put in check, The Accords simply wasn't the way.
I see both sides. I believe Tony was right ina way. that the Avengers needs regulations, oversight and follow the Laws and borders of other nations. but not to the point of working directly under the UN. Like Tony wanted. a Avengers being treated like a Private Military and rules that come with it.
Cap on the other hand wanted the Avengers to act like pure vigilantes policing the world, killing people where ever whenever they wanted while Tony wanted to be slaves to the Government.
The middle ground (Private Military) is where i'm at. But seeing how much bad stuff in the accords i'm leaning more on Caps side. Even Tony just ignores the accords in the end of the Movie after seeing the raft so he changes teams.
It's crazy how Tony created Ultron and almost destroyed Earth, and all he has to says is "my fault." That's it. No real consequences for him. Just my bad, and it's all good.
He’s also the same reason the world wasn’t destroyed so what’s your point his punishment is living with the fact people are fucking dead because of him 😂. How bout we punish Wanda for manipulating both Tony and banner, how bout we punish Bucky for all his killings granted he wasn’t in control but we don’t use that logic for drunk drivers
@spadesofpaintstudios1719 Bucky was literally brainwashed. That's not at all the same as drunk drivers. They chose to drink, amd then chose to get behind the wheel
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lpI mean TECHNICALLY bucky DID choose to go to war he also CHOSE to go on that mission with cap
@@draiocht1979 but he didn't choose to be brainwashed
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp they choose to drink but not all the options that come with it much like how Bucky didn’t necessarily choose to commit all actions but he still did them even if he had no control his own subconscious is suppressed. Never the less he did what he did
Tony, "we need to put in check"
That's what made me team Cap.
It's like Tony didn't trust the Avengers. How are you going to fight side by side with these people and say that?
You feel guilty for your mistakes? Fine, make amends.
Don't drag everyone else with you. Thinking your way is the only way.
But Ironman was right not to trust them, Cap was lying to his face and Wanda eventually tried to blow up the universe to be with her imaginary kids. Tony was 100% vindicated.
@@prolastmedia6171 Cap was wrong for that. Wanda is just bad writing. Anyone who heard the "ice-cream song" knew those kids weren't worth the trouble 😂
It’s not so much a lack of trust but more so enabling accountability. The whole point of the Accords was that the Avengers wouldn’t believe “thinking your own way is the only way” by having a legal authority supervise and reprimand them if they messed up.
@@jonathandelgado3755 That legal authority consisted of politicians and therein lie the problem. Its not just that policians are corrupt, its that there is an established history in the MCU of politicians not regulating enhanced people. but rather creating and weaponizing them for their own evil ends. Most of the Avengers were created by politicians, and often against their will.
You cannot trust people to "supervise" you who view you as a machine to be used for their own ends. You also cannot give that kind of authority to people who do not respect or act within the law themselves. Especially someone like Ross- Ross for goodness sake! He was the guy who created Hulk by illegal human experiments and then created Abomination the say way. A guy who utilizes torture, sanctions extra judicial executions, and is prepared to destroy entire city districts to get his daughter back.
If the Avengers wanted someone to hold them to account, they should have chosen some independent body not comprised of politicians. (Rhodey was extremely naive in assuming the UN were not HYDRA: the UN is full of career politicians. We know many politicians were in HYDRA so it stands to reason there were good number of HYDRA operatives among them).
But its mot just his mistakes, its all of theirs. The avengers are a powerful group that can literally hold the fate of the world in their hands. You're really telling me that they should just be allowed to roam free?
Steve line where he talks about people with agenda says it all. I can never be team Iron Man when i know that the people blaming them would actually be gone.
Imagine if even in Agatha All Along the witches would begrudgingly be Team Cap. Think of it Agatha may still be a colossal bag of douche but Tony's blunders have to be so stupid to make a witch side with Steve 😂😂
I think the film did a way better job than the comics. The comics were full of character assassination and led to things like Spider-Man One More Day. It also ruined comic Iron Man’s perception to the public even tho he’s made up for it countless times.
Cap said the best line that should’ve made all the hero’s turn against the Sokovia Accords:
It’s run by people with agendas, and agendas change.
All it takes is the wrong person in a position of power to screw things up for every one. Cap knows this, and was not going to allow it to happen.
Ultimately, Cap was not going to let the Avengers be used for any purpose other than saving lives and doing the right thing. In the long run, he was correct
For real.... you watched the movie, and you understood it. You didn't take a side by first, looking at the characters, seeing which one is on which team.
I love how that guy said the Zola algorithm identified Dr Strange as a possible threat while he hasn't even become a sorcerer at that point
I understand why Tony believed in it. It’s not as black and white as what people make it out to be. Damn, I miss when the mcu made movies that were so good that we could have these discussions
I love how people forget that the entire point of the accords was to limit the heroes and potentially make them into a black ops team for the U.S general Ross hinted that it was whole reason why the government was so eager to put them into effect and King T’chaka was a mere pawn in order to guilt more super powered individuals into joining the accords and be test monkeys the thunderbolts program the game was literally rigged from the start
Someone finallly mentioned Ross is a pos. How Tony fans can believe he was right when he's literally sucking up to the MCU equivalent of Joseph Mengele is beyond me.
Go ahead and continue your disgusting and prejudiced hate speech against vulnerable people like Tony Stark. While you're busy dehumanizing Tony Stark, I genuinely hope that Bucky Barnes overcomes his trauma and becomes a better person - something Tony Stark will never be abre to do, thanks to hateful people like YOU!!!!!
I tried to somehow find a way in which Stark is right, but there is simply none. Stark chose government's side out of guilt, through emotion not intelligence.
Rogers already seen SHIELD try it, and they got compromised by Hydra.
Stark was wrong.
I swear people keep forgetting that Tony manipulated/didn't fully explain the situation to Peter when recruiting him, which is pretty questionable. If I was Peter, I would have many questions firing in my head about what was going on instead of just blindly following what Tony tells me.
Yup. He also lied ot Aunt May about where he was going/what he was doing. In fact all of the others acted really shocked and horrified that Tony bought a a literal child into it.
In fact if you look at the members of Team Tony there's only like 1 person who really believes in the Accords and that is Rhodey.
Tony doesn't care and breaks them as soon as they become inconvenient.
T'Challa only sided with Tony because he wanted to kill Bucky but ends up helping him, taking him to Wakanda and pulled Wakanda out of the Accords aferwards anyway.
Vision only came to basically take Wanda home.
Spidey was just a fanboy who Tony manipulated and really had no idea what was going down. It was in his words "just a chance to impress Mr Stark".
Oh and Natasha straight up defected to Cap's side before the movie even ended because she realized she was only alive because Clint did for her what Cap was doing for Bucky. She wanted to repay the favor in a way.
Yeah Tony admitted he was wrong about Bucky. And it’s crazy Cap knew his parents got snatched since Captain America Winter Soldier.
Bro is spitting the GOSPEL
Iron man was so wrong in every single way. His reasoning was bs and due to him they lost in infinity war, if the team wasn’t split they might have won against Thanos. Cap is the leader and the most moral hero of all time while Tony is just a spoiled genius.
0:33 Oh, naw, JJJ had a heart attack when that happened, full stop.
Which is understandable. His very own employee who was hired to take pictures of Spider-Man actually turned out to *be* Spider-Man. Anyone in JJJ’s situation would have a reaction like that.
Im 100% with Cap. Not just because i believe in personal freedom to a certain extent but the government has always been shady AF.
I also find it funny that Tony is like "we need to be put in check" when he's the reason why Ultron existed and why Quicksilver and Wanda worked with him"
Y’all gotta understand that Tony also blames himself, proof of the scene when the woman blames Tony for her sons death
@@ugobrown2357 ya that's true and understandable if he wants to be part of the government let him do him the others aren't obligated too unless they're willing to.
Okay, so Cap didn't actually KNOW it was The Winter Soldier that killed Howard and Maria Stark. In "The Winter Soldier" Zola told Steve and Widow that Hydra did it, but he didn't specify that it was Bucky who pulled the trigger.
Steve actually says to Tony "I didn't know it was him" but Tony cuts him off and Steve sees in that moment that Tony has already made up his mind, so he just cops to it and says "yes" because he did know that Hydra had them killed.
At best Steve might have guessed/figured out that it was likely Bucky that did it, but he didn't know for a fact.
I agree with Cap too, but you gotta imagine if you were in Tony's shoes. Seeing actual footage of this guy physically killing your parents would make most people go berserk
What i love about the comic book versionsbof the superhero registration act and the mutant registration act is that irl ppl tend to oppose them cuz they view them as infringements on liberties.
But the arguement used to support them in comics are identical to gun control arguements.
You'd be amazed how many ppl oppose the fictional laws but support the real ones.
Tony Stark was wrong in the film, but I think he had (somewhat) of an argument in the comic. The actions of the New Mutants led to the deaths of hundreds. I wish the film had a better reason for the government getting involved, like the comic.
@@Terminus-y9v I thought the film universe had a decent reason. Superheroes had been active for years and with two Avenger level threats plus several superhero solo adventures I’d say the governments would’ve seen enough to think “Hey, I think we gotta do something.”
@@jonathandelgado3755
There was better build up in the comics, and more of a history to go off of for the government, and by some extension the American public, to want Heroes named and licensed. Terrorist attacks from Brotherhood of Mutants, alien invasions happening on the Fantastic Four's doorstep with countless bystanders harmed in the crossfire, Namor getting pissy about pollution so casually invades the surface whenever, complicated relations with the Inhumans, whatever existential threats the Avengers are dealing with that given day, The Hulk alone... The American people throughout the Marvel comics were skeptical of capes even on a good day and outright wanted Spider-Man shot on a bad one.
In the MCU we have no mutants let alone a Magneto to royally fuck up mutant-human relations, Spider-Man films are awful at world building so we really don't have a clearer picture of what the wider public think of Spider-Man post Civil War, and Spider-Man being involved has no where near as much weight as him just revealing his identity to the public after decades worth of comic history to tug on. The Inhumans and Namor along with Atlantis got horribly botched by Marvel Studios so let's not even try to pretend any of that actually happened, so that just leaves existential Avengers level threats and the Hulk's outburst in Age of Ultron to really have any argument for registration. Still a fair argument to be had, but the registration act doesn't have as much weight behind it as it does in the comics from my perspective.
@@jonathandelgado3755 yeah but like it’s mentioned in the universe….they planned to nuke the city. they’re not much better especially because the avengers would probably be misused
@@starchyldecommentaries In all honesty, they’re really not much better, but that may or may not render their points entirely worthless. In the case of NYC it was a last ditch effort against a threat they’d never faced before. Now they kinda just want super powered vigilantes to be held accountable for things that aren’t entirely without fault. It may be hypocritical coming from them but they do have a point.:/
@@jonathandelgado3755 I think if it was just the US government then Tony would be completely wrong but this is the UN. I don't think they would say no to the Avengers saving the world
I wonder if Cap would have the same mindset if we got an MCU version of X-MEN vs AVENGERS. In that series Steve was definitely the Tony. Scott (Cyclops) Summers was right.
I hated that story. As a lifelong X-Men fan, seeing the writers making the X-Men the villians just pissed me off.
@@kevinbre7563the avengers being the villains?
@@microcelltechnicalassistence X-Men. Sorry for being unclear
@@kevinbre7563 i mean they writers erre saying they were the villains, but Scott was Just out there being the best x-men líder in 15 decades
The Avengers are NOT the go-to for investigating “cosmic”. Professor Reed Richards should have been brought in immediately (Reed even told Tony and Steve to “stop poking the bear”). And Wolverine’s “Cyclops sucks” yapping didn’t help at all.
And what’s with EVERYBODY blaming Scott for “killing” Xavier? HE WAS MIND CONTROLLED! Logan, Cap, Iceman, Storm. All up in Cyclops face. Again, MIND CONTROLLED! You name me one major superhero who hasn’t been. Plus Namor almost destroyed Wakanda. Was he sent to the Gulag?
It's so crazy I didn't remember cap side until I see that specific scene in the conference room, he was cooking way too hard. He didn't want the avengers to have to become the villains because they screwed up in some contract mess or even disassemble. Tony was the one trying to be hollywood, which was strange like you said since he was the one that fucking made ultron. I still side with cap, his side just makes too much sense
Tony fans say that Steve didn't want to play by the rules, but that's one the case at all. Steve's main concern was that those with power could easily abuse the Accords to weaponize superheroes for their own ends- and that happens in the MCU a lot.
Also worth noting: Steve is not at any point trying to impose his ideas on others: nor does he force anyone to agree with or support him. He's prepared to go it alone if needs be. He tells Natasha very early on he's not gonna sign, but he respects her descision and she respects his.
Tony on the other hand is very much the "I know what's best for you all and you'd better do it or you're in trouble!" guy.
I also never understand how Cap should’ve told Tony that Bucky killed his parents 😭. He found out about that in Winter Soldier, when he found the computerized Zola. The next time we see cap and tony together after that was during age of ultron. But it’s not exactly Avengers Dinner conversation to go up to him and tell him, “Yo you know my best friend who was brainwashed? He killed your parents.” And this was when he hadn’t even found Bucky after Winter Soldier, the first time Cap and Sam find him is DURING Civil War, when Bucky gets framed, and that’s AFTER him and Tony already split up because of the Accords.
Spider-Man would have been 100% against the accords. That’s the funniest part of Civil War
All Cap Had to say was the "Right to choose" im not a women but women need the right to choose. Not everybody identity is safe if REVEALED💯💯💯 it's a right to choose to keep your identity sealed AKA hippa
Word
Captain America: The GOAT Avenger 😤
It's crazy that the Sokovia Accords was presented to the Avengers by Secretary Ross. He is the same person who used a derivative of the super soldier serum that created Captain America on one of his soldiers in order to combat the Hulk. He is the same leader who allowed the use of heavy artillery on an occupied university campus. He is the same father who failed to keep his daughter in control thus almost killing her with his own weaponry. He is the same man chastising the Avengers for their apathy of collateral damage even he allowed the Hulk to fight the Abomination within a fully populated city.
THANK YOU for bringing up the plot of Winter Soldier. Often goes overlooked into discussing Steve's perspective
I think most Tony fans skipped that movie to be honest.
The worst part is Tony pinning the blame for his actions on the entire team. Surprised no one brought up that he was the problem, and if they wanted him off the team, fine, but the rest of them didn't cause his problems
When did Tony blame the Team for his problems? I think I missed something here?
@@topspinbot5777 when he didn’t take accountability for sokovia, he’s the whole reason age of ultron happened yet he said nothing. Ultron. Would. Not. Have. Been. Created. If. Not. For. Tony.
@@hughjanus3562 the whole movie is about the danger the Avengers as a whole bring not just Ultron and Sokovia. The movie clearly states that the mere existence of the Avengers insights and breeds conflict. And yes, Tony does take responsibility for what happened with Ultron. He might not show it publicly but him being on the side of the accords is enough proof. Also Tony didn’t intend for Ultron to be a kill bot and since Ultron is his own being. He made the conscious choice to wipe out humanity. They also get on his ass about Ultron in AoU. And keep this same energy for Bruce Banner because. He. Helped. Make. Ultron.
And actually DOSEN’T take responsibility of it ether, he flies off world and runs from his own mistakes.
@@topspinbot5777 so wouldn’t the solution be to disband the avengers and not just simply have them under the control of world governments where conflict would still occur? Tony felt guilty that’s why he signed, if he simply took responsibility he’d have pushed for the accords sooner. Whatever Tony envisioned as is irrelevant because if not for Tony ultron wouldn’t have been able to make those decisions. I’m also not worried about blaming banner either. while he did at least attempt to stop Tony from making ultron he ultimately played a role in his creation, not as big a role as Tony but still a role.
@@hughjanus3562 I do agree that they should have disbanded instead of fighting each other but the Avengers are still needed so that’s not really an option they
have. Thanos comes to earth regardless so they still need to be together to at least have a fight chance. We saw what happened when they were separated (they still could have won their first encounter with Thanos but u get the picture) if they were together that fight probably would have ended much differently.
I cant really blame cap for not telling tony i mean he was constantly on missions then you have the ultron problem and him trying to find croobone so there was not a right time yo tell tony
The best part about this movie was it introduced Spider-Man to the MCU.
And after that it went downhill for him until No Way Home fixed him.
@@ShockwaveFPSStudiosNah hot take the whole trilogy is good
@@brothsipper-h5oYeah it’s a hot take, but it’s not the common opinion.
The take people have of "Steve and Bucky jumped an orphan who just lost his parents" is wild. All I can conclude is they haven't actually watched the movie and only saw a clip or something.
Not just that Bucky was brainwashed or that Tony started that fight. Its also that Tony's parents had been dead for *25 years* at that point and Tony was nearly *50*. He wasn't some young kid who just lost his parents days earlier. He's a grown-ass man whose parents died a quarter century earlier. He's much older that T'Challa who had lost his father only one day before, and yet T'Challa quickly rose above his desire for revenge.
It's funny, this video is literally just what the audience is supposed to understand. The fact that you needed to make this is crazy.
Sensing a theme here. Sokovia.. Caused by killer robot made by Tony to show he could. They need the Tony Accords to keep an eye on Mister Stark.
And on the.. Bucky killing Tony's parents - Steve suspected it, but never had any proof. Bucky had no memory of it, Cap had no evidence. No newspaper clippings, no security footage, no notes of Bucky's deployment.. He had suspicions, but nothing beyond them.
Cap really had nothing he -could- tell Tony. I'd like to think that if he did he would have said so. But at least onscreen there's nothing show to indicate that Cap had any evidence for said suspicion.
And if one wants to get hyper-technical Tony violates the Accords by going to Siberia by setting up a decoy of him being on his plane so as soon as they inconvenience him they're out the window.. Whereas technically he should have passed it along to Ross and gotten authorization to pursue...
Tony really did like to do whatever Tony wanted and ignored anything to the contrary. His betrayal of the accords makes his betrayal of the rest of the Avengers that much worse. The Accords were written and passed in large because of Ultron, which Tony created without informing the team or asking their opinion. He had a momentary feeling of guilt, shifting that guilt onto everyone else, made sure they signed their freedom away, and then just ignored the accords himself. What an ass.
Ultimately what gets me a lot about Tony here is his hypocricy. If he had abided by said Accords at least he would have believed in them. But the fact at the first moment of convenience he specifically broke them shows how little he cared for them.
There's also very much the way he introduced them to the team. It was already negotiated, he gave them no real time to review the accords (we see what are clearly several hundred pages) and have an honest discussion before he's applying a lot of pressure to them (and mild threats).
If the Accords were necessary and an issue, then Tony should have gotten together with the team, they should all have sat down with the Security Council (or whomever had jurisdiction) and negotiated it amongst them all. Not him just dropping it on all of them with no real time to actually read the materials and demand they agree to it.
There's also him working in concert with Thaddeus "Thunderbolt" Ross who wanted to vivisect his science bro Bruce but that's ane ntirely different concern here.
Never understood how the avengers were blame for everything. The only one that was their (mostly Tony’s and Bruce’s fault) was Ultron
@@Shadowkiller-dq2ju it simply just isn’t logical. Like you mentioned the only logical reason to be upset would be because of Tony
One of the best things about Civil War was that there wasn’t really a wrong answer for both sides or at least it was understandable.
I was team Cap in Civil war, but Iron man is still the GOAT Avenger. Sacrificed himself in every film including the ultimate sacrifice and he paid for everything to facilitate the avengers.
What's really fucked up is that people were saying Bucky DESERVED TO DIE! for killing the starks despite being brainwashed.
I tell them about the brainwashing and they just still say "well he still did it".
What mainly pissed off Tony is because Steve knew and chose not to tell. Here's a question: what if Tony never saw the recording, would Steve take this information to his grave?
I mean to be fair tho here is another question if Tony never saw the recording and Steve told him about what Bucky did do you think tony wouldn't go kill Bucky ? But yeah he should have told him much earlier before civil war
@@Idk_idc_0916 After Tony watched the video, he wanted to attack Bucky, but Steve held him back. Steve can't hold the armor but his presence stop Tony, for a few seconds. It's only after Steve admits of withholding the truth, his friend, his father's friend, betraying his trust, that's when Tony snapped. Which is a recurring theme in Tony's life. I don't think Tony would've reacted the same way if Steve told the truth, however he wouldn't allow Bucky to become a fugitive. It would be an arrest instead of an attempted murder. It's a big What If.
Also, almost at the end of the movie, Steve admitted to Tony in a letter that he made a mistake in keeping Tony´s parents murderer´s identity a secret. And Steve didn´t do it because he wanted to, he did it because he thought he was protecting Tony yet realized that he was only sparing himself.
The writers must've forgotten this when making Endgame, since in that movie, Iron Man blamed Cap for not being there when he needed him. Like, dude, Cap reached out to you but you chose not to answer. And now you're pissed?
@@jvbutalid8316 the writers didn't forget. that speech was improvised by rdj. tony was supposed to tell steve he was sorry and reconcile with him, but rdj didn't like that so he improvised that whole mess.
@@tokoshie Dammit, it's Iron Man's fault then
peter would have sided with captain america if he knew the stakes
It was all Barron Zemo. We should not blame either side. Because at the end, everyone came together, and that is what matters.
In short: Iron Man wanted them to be regulated. Everything here falls apart if he would just think about regulating themselves, put rules in place to be a part of Avengers, but no, he wanted a corrupt government to make them do their dirty bidding for owns profit instead of good. He should know that since hes a billionaire and a past weapons manufacturer which are the most corrupt so he should've been familiar with them
When Civil War came out I was 11 so I barely understood the plot and just liked all the fighting so I was originally on Tony’s side bc I like him more but when I rewatched it I converted to Steve’s side cause he was right
Why would giving government control over the super heroes actually be a good thing? All the complaints are about collateral damages and casualties when the avengers fight avenger level threats. And in the comic if I remember correctly it was about a hero group failing to stop a bombing by a mutant with steroids. How would working for the government changed these outcomes?
They which is why in both versions government wad wrong
Looks like M Enterprises is finally covering some good old Marvel stuff after a while
Of course Tony is wrong. The literal second the accords posed a hindrance to him, he ignored them. The issue here was not that we shouldn't have some oversight for supers, it was that the side most might agree with IRL is presented by a man who's heart was only in it due to a previous mishap.
You've hit the nail on the proverbial head. The guy talking about "Accountability" is the very one who breaks the rules without consequences as soon as it becomes inconvenient. Which basically makes the whole idea of accountability a joke.
im late af but another important thing with Cap and Bucky was that he had just buried Peggy at the beginning of the movie
One of the very few connections from his past life is now 6 ft underground and he was not going to let that happen again with Bucky
Civil War is such a great movie, it's sad to see how far Marvel has fallen from grace
1:26 wtf 😂
Miss Marvel was saying that to Captain Marvel
I don't even blame Steve for not telling Tony about his parents. We watch in real time how that goes over. Tony is historically known for being impulsive and unpredictable. That's literally the entire plot of Age Of Ultron. Now granted, it would probably be different if Bucky wasn't right in front of Tony, but it is reasonable to fear the worst.
I don't agree with what he did, but I think it's pretty hard to blame Steve for doing it. That's a difficult position to be in.
2:26 Even hishe called him out for it
The lesson I got from it was you can't force Captain America. He stands tall and when he says no in either accords or Bucky situation, you just have to respect it. Both were fully right but when Cap says No, Tony wants to use force.
I like that you brought up that Cap just wanted safeguards(5:11). It highlights a problem that is consistent on the United Nations/Tony's side, the refusal to work together. United Nations wanted them to shut up and obey. There was no negotiations or compromises made. It was either Tony's way or the highway.
While I do like Civil War, I am also 100% Team Cap because the alternative just sucks ass.
Tony was only being so insistent about the Accords because he was projecting his guilt onto everyone else. Ultron was almost entirely HIS fault and after being confronted by a direct victim of HIS fuck-up, he decides the Avengers should be government slaves to make himself feel better.
Not to mention how almost his entire team was only helping for their own personal reasons, the only guy on Team Iron Man that was just there to help Tony was Rhodey. Meanwhile all of Team Cap were there out of genuine loyalty to Steve.
I mean shit, Tony had the audacity to get pissy at Cap for getting Hawkeye to help him - as if Clint wasn't a grown-ass man who can make his own choices - when Tony had blackmailed a FUCKING TEENAGER into going to Germany with him and fighting AT LEAST Captain America, Falcon and the goddamned Winter Soldier. Who Tony still believes to be a willing mass-murderer at this point. Tony signed the Accords so he could be responsible for once, then he goes and enlists a fucken 15-year-old to fight murderous super-soldiers? What the fuck Tony?