This Is the Best Way to Increase VO2 Max (NOT zone 2) | Martin Gibala
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- Опубліковано 17 січ 2024
- Short on time? No fear. Turns out you do NOT need to do 3-4 hours/week of zone 2 to increase your VO2 max. In this video, expect to learn:
• The best way to increase your VO2 max if you're short on time
• Why some individuals don't experience VO2 max improvements with zone 2 cardio
• What exactly VO2 max is (and why it's the best measure of cardiorespiratory fitness)
• Why the greatest longevity benefits come from escaping the "low range" of VO2 max for your age group/gender
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Think of trying to increase your VO2Max as trying to blow up a balloon and keep it at that size.
If you are quite unfit, you start with a mainly deflated and quite thin balloon. If you blow too hard too early, it bursts and you're back to square 1 (or lower). If you go slowly, the balloon (in our analogy) will inflate very slowly but its walls will get thicker. Now that your balloon is thicker, it means you can blow harder for a bit to inflate it a bit faster, but you need back off before it bursts. Then you spend another good chunk of time blowing really slowly in order to thicken the balloon even more. Then you can blow harder for a bit and so on.
The thicker (and bigger) the balloon gets, the harder it is to maintain it at that size and even harder to make it bigger. These are the limits of your lifestyle and you can only raise this ceiling by creating more space in your life for aerobic exercise.
Given that the name of the game in increasing and keeping your VO2Max high is *consistency* , low intensity exercise ("zone 2") is compulsory in reducing the risk of _bursting the ballon_ (ie. getting injured, sick, overtrained etc) and going back to square 1. You earn your 30mins of high intensity aerobic exercise with many hours of slow intensity aerobic exercise.
V02Max is genetic. Unless you are born with the kind of balloon that can get that blown up in the first place, you don't have much to gain doing lots of HIIT. Also you can easily get over trained. I know from experience.
People with elite genes can train without getting over trained. The reason we mere mortals do Zone 2 a lot is because if we did high intensity a lot we would over train real fast.
300 minutes of Zone 2 a week is enough for most people to max out their genetics for cardio. If you have elite genes and only if, then maybe you can do more volume and keep getting benefits. But you need to do resistance training for health too, and most people aren't genetic elite in endurance.
Ultimate bro science right there
@@theanomaly3038 I'm happy for you to write a more scientifically accurate analogy. This was the best I could do, not a way to pretend I understand the phemonenon in full. Have a good day!
@@norbert4571 this vo2max thing is actually simple, scientifically you just need to
well, nobody (including Attia) said that zone2 training is for vo2 max, so I can't understand the comments here. He suggests a zone2 heavy + zone 5 training regimen - and surprise, the latter is exactly for vo2max. The former is for mitochondrial adaptation. Still, picking only 1/2 zones and religiously keeping you there is... hm... exaggerated?
btw, most people (runners) enjoy another aspect of z2 after they experience injuries: if you let your body adapt at a slower pace, you will get fewer injuries and less recovery time -> more time to train.
"Still, picking only 1/2 zones and religiously keeping you there is... hm... exaggerated?"
I'm no expert, but isn't it just that it's easier to program this way? I would imagine that trying to figure out how to distribute training volume across all 5 zones is a mess, but this way you just manipulate one independent variable and see what works. Is it 75/25, 80/20 or 90/10? Much simpler.
@@jb_1971 if you believe that those zones really exist... there are some maximums of body functions (like lactate balance for z2, vo2 max for z5), but do you really have an explanation for the missing? Other than, once upon a time somebody defined 5 zones, another one 6, and now we try to force our newer results into those vague categories.
Attia experiments with himself constantly, so for him it's normal to measure his lactate level during workouts. He does not have zones in his mind, just 2 exact states (points), because that's optimal based on his views.
For an average, non-competitive 'athlete' and non longevity maniac nothing happens if any of those limits are under/overachieved. Keeping these zones puts much stress and fear on recreational athletes for nothing.
@@tamasburghard6778 check out Veronique Billat French Physiologist: she was a pioneer in vVO2 MAX type of training.
Zone 2 can lead to increases in VO2 Max. Coaches have known since the 1960's that volume increases in VO2 Max and researchers following runners have shown that VO2 max increases up to a volume of 120km per week. Of course, still more increases in VO2 Max can be achieved by exercising above 90% of max heart rate for 3-5 minutes repeated 3-5 times with 3-5 minutes recovery.
It is exactly like you wrote it!
As a basic rule for most people, do more than you are doing now. I use 30 min to 1 hour zone 2 every day for the mind. Strength training 3 days per week for the body. Intervals once per week for the VO2max. Keeps me pretty well rounded
What you mean when say "intervalos"? Is HIIT ?
@@betorezende7645 Intervals with 2 to 4 minutes max heart rate training. Example: sprinting/fast running for 2 minutes - you use your maximum strength so that it lasts for a maximum of 2 minutes. then take a break of 2 to 4 minutes until your heart rate has regulated. Repeat this 3 to 5 times. then cool down training
Your formula sounds good and well balanced.
Thank you. That's helpful.
Thank you so much! I've been struggling with creating a more well rounded fitness routine. This spells it out!@@lirox79
Zone 2 is for mitochondria adaptation and capillary density and size .
and fat oxidation
Then why are 40% non responders at low intensity?
@@natew4489 it's because they aren't athletes and their diet sucks big time
@@natew4489 Lmao thats complete bullshit. Why does everybody have to find some special secret training methodology? Just train all the different energy systems for the best overall results like what is already common knowledge.
@@natew4489 Some people don't have the genetics to be great endurance athletes. That doesn't mean Zone 2 isn't beneficial.
Long slow z2 is pure mitochondrial work, thus you vo2 max elevates as they get efficient... Cranking out 4 hit workouts per week will fry your nervous system, mix and match folks.
I tried HT, still recovering after 2 years. Everybody is different, find your own bucket. I think mixing it up does the trick. Zone 2-3-4/week, 1 VO2/week and some strength 3/week, and movement in general. That with a good deal of luck.
FYI for all the people in the comments; Martin Gibala is talking about this in the context on VO2 Max training. Do not forget that zone 2 training is king for metabolic flexbility
Amen. Absolutely true.
Yes!
Yes - short term it might be the same. But not over time.
You have a human limitation of how much you can improve your oxygen uptake. Zone 2 is the long game. This is where you develop the Mithocondria density which is endless. This development is a function of time not speed.
Do you think it’s more of a function of ATP demand? Regular sprint intervals, HIIT increases mitogenesis.
Clickbait title. It’s not one or the other, to truly maximize you need both.
Who has ever said that zone 2 increases vo2max in the first place?
Many people. And it does, even they just said it does.
It's the same thing as with the intensity-volume trade-off in strength training. If you want higher intensity, you have to sacrifice some volume, and vice versa. The optimal approach for most people most of the time will be neither 1 rep max all the time, nor 10 sets per muscle group every day, but rather an undulating routine that balances the two.
Peter Attia MD. He did a podcast with Andrew Huberman that talks all about it.
It does but you need waaay more training volume.
There is an interesting article that makes a case for it - "How ‘Trainable’ Is VO2 Max Really? - A Case Study". There is a graph there contrasting weekly training volume with cardiac stroke volume. The more you train, the higher your cardiac stroke volume tends to be. However, the graph STARTS with almost 14 hours of training per week and progresses up unto 20 hours. That is A LOT of training, even at the lower limit. Most people will get maybe 2 hours of cardio per week at best, and I can't see how telling them to spend 80% of that in zone 2 is productive.
A few points: 1. the often stated 20-30 hours of zone two might be relevant for an elite endurance cyclist or triathlete, but top runners would do half that volume, or less. 2. there is a lot of either/or thinking in this discussion - what is wrong with a blend of zone 2 and high intensity? 3. people of go from the couch to just about any form of regular exercise are likely to show material gains. However, going from the couch to high intensity sessions is more likely to quickly lead to soft-tissue injuries - ruptured achilles wouldn't be a surprise. 4. VO2 Max testing is hard work, and relatively few people are likely to push themselves to the same level of effort across multiple tests, meaning the testing results will be inconsistent and therefore minimal value at an individual level. 5. Genetics plays a significant factor in VO2 max, there is a large range of variability in the population i.e. the range of 35-95 is enormous. So assuming you are unfit, improving is more important than the actual number.
Agreed!! For people who are sedentary, simply getting up and doing anything is great. I fear many are intimidated by all the info and finding the "perfect plan" instead of just doing something.
yeah not sure why it's either/or, you really need both. They do different things.
Aren't people with metabolic syndrome perpetually in zone 2?
I agree with doing what you like or what fits for you. I found that if I combine zone 2 and HIIT I get nice results. On my bike trainer, I do a lead-up into HIIT with a simulated mile of zone 2. I repeat that four or five times. The only VO2 max measure I have is my resting heart rate. It improves but I especially like my times on my cyclocross bike course. My times have improved since starting this combination after mainly HIIT and riding on the course. Simply riding did not cause much improvement. For what it's worth, I'm 79 and this combination is working. I live in Maine and my trails are snow covered and I am looking forward to the spring and finding out if this winter routine of combined approaches does me much good.
if dr martin turns his head at the right angle it looks like the top of his head is flat
You are almost certainly not in zone 2 again after the first interval. It takes longer for the switch back to zone 2/mitochondrial energy after a max interval.
Elaborate more on your method. I think you might be onto something but I didn't know you could mix Zone 2 and HIIT?
Nice lady and great clear question to start the discussion. Thanks!! Good clip and thanks both of you.
Thanks and have a great weekend. Good clip.
I appreciate your pragmatic perspectives on these topics. Love Dr. Attia and have learned a lot from him and, he can get overboard at time with details I have trouble following. Thank you.
that's not him 😂😂😂 but from the thumbnails they look the same
The chart at 1:29 does not backup what's being said there. He's talking about replacing high volume zone 2 training with low volume HIIT training. Low volume, high intensity training isn't even on that chart. The chart just shows that higher volume is better, but so it higher intensity.
Good catch, thanks for taking the time to be critical. I typically listen when doing other things, maybe it's time to start reading the slides more often.
I think the definition of what is high/low volume is not clearly defined other than as a variable time span and will vary depending on your current conditioning with these exercises. High/Low intensity are equated to HIIT/Zone2. High volume Zone2 training means stay longer on the bike while low volume HIIT is your typical HIIT workout, meaning you only need a fraction of the time when doing HIITs to get a similar perhaps better VO2 Max improvement. The overall chart result just says more is better whether it be volume or intensity. The chart shows the result of a Zone2 workout which would be similar to your normal low volume/high intensity workout, i.e. HIIT.
Yep, I was surprised it wasn't that big a difference between high intensity and low intensity both with high volume. Low intensity is probably going to have less injuries as well. I used to be almost exclusively high intensity, but now I try to do at least one day a week long and slow.
4:45 They emphasize elite athletes, but the chart shows a tiny difference between them and high performers.
Brisk walking is regenerative and brisk walking is the best.
Good discussion. One thing I feel needs thought is how hard HIT actually is. I see many underestimate it, and really surprise themselves when we coach an athlete through a real HIT session.
I'm going to try to combine Zone 2 and HIIT, myself. I tried high intensity and after several days of seeming success I injured my leg so I had to stop. I'm a healthy 61-year-old but I may not have warmed up enough beforehand. I stayed away for some 10 days and am just now doing something like Zone 2 and hope to move back toward a limited level of HIIT.
Kick ass. Exactly what I've been doing: 80% zone 2 (running/jogging) and 20% HIIT/SIT.
You MUST interview Professor Ulrik Wisloff from Norway about this topic. I have done so on my podcast show. He is the single world expert at delivering the science behind this for health and converting it to a health impact software that tracks heart rate, converts it to VO2 max and more…Ulrik is in Australia (where I live) this year. I’m about to visit with him soon.
He is at UQ!! 😶🌫
Recently i was searching for running programs for a 10k race. The vast majority of programs suggested 2-3 hours of zone 2 training and half an hour of hiit training. It's nothing new.
I have been running for 30 years. I’m 50. I can run a 3 hour marathon. I’ve found the best and fastest results using a mix of the two. Meaning on weekends I will run a long zone 2 half marathon and during the week I run 3-5 miles running HIIT or just flat out race pace 3x a week.
But by far the fastest way to increase vo2 max is losing weight if you are overweight or obese.
I think that to get the last bit of value out of a training commitment beyond just HR and time spent is to then optimise mitochondria, vasculature and general bodily preparedness... Hot & cold, fasting, etc can all play a role in tweaking the metabolism... you may not any more gains, but what you have will be easier to maintain and achieve...
As a casual runner I don’t put in enough miles to get much from zone two. The thing that has worked for me is longer intervals (3-4 minutes and rest) once a week and the odd sprint session to build those speed muscles. Other than that it’s nice to go out without an agenda and go as slow as you want but that is rarely zone two according to my watch.
Knowing what zone two is for you is so problematic it’s just as likely to get you doing the wrong thing if you go by heart rate. You can get tested for it and those tests show a wide range of heart rate percentages for the desired effect.
Interesting point. I am a couple years into triathlon training and z2 pace after testing almost never matches z2 heart rate for me. The heart rate is always way higher. Very hard to get them to match, although recently I have gotten them pretty darn close if I stay on the lower end of z2 pace.
For cycling the pace and wattage matches perfectly.
For other metrics between whoop and garmin, It is nothing but confusing as they rarely match, sometimes complete opposite, and they rarely match RPE.
The more devices and data I learn, the more confusing it gets, and the more I find, just go have fun with only the general idea of what workout you effect want and thar is enough to put you in the right direction
I use to do only HIIT and hit a plateau. Then I learned about zone 2. I started to mix 4 hours of zone 2 and 1 hour of HIIT per week. Surprisingly I broke my plateau. New PR, less injuries, and now I enjoy my workouts a bit more.
Really all that matters is consistency.
Zone 2 training (see Stephen Seiler) isn't V02 max training. It's base training, and training that you can do at a lower intensity instead of stressing your system incessantly with high aerobic work. Look at 80/20 method.
My garmin had my vo2 max higher when i did more higher intensity workouts. It went lower when i took them out or did prioritize them as much and put more emphasis on my zone 2 work. Just truthful anecdotal for anyone interested.
Great interview. I'll throw in my 2 cents. I've been exercising for over 50 years. I wrestled for 6 years then got into strength training and bodybuilding (non-competitive) I competed in powerlifting meets locally. Never took steroids but I was mentally strong from the wrestling workouts I had to go through. I've found that context is everything because what wasn't discussed here is the other life factors we all have like sleep quality, diet and stress. Zone 2 training works best when I've been doing HIIT for a while and HIIT works best when I've been doing zone 2 training consistently. It's the mixture of both and knowing when to emphasize one over the other for whatever reason. If you want your intensity to go up definitely incorporate zone 2 training. Not overtraining and keeping our central nervous system in peak form should always be a priority.
Makes sense and sounds like you are basically saying forget the ratios and apply the appropriate modality intuitively. Maybe possible for someone who has been at it for 50 years and perhaps more difficult for others who just want to set up a weekly plan and go for it.
@@bhaganism It’s possible for anyone. Hell, most will probably be better at it than I was.
We used to call this LSD back in the day. Then working into vigorous intervals coupled to threshold and beyond. When you need to pop out of the saddle and stomp your guts out to the next corner, you’ll never get there if you aren’t training for it.
You're right. Triathletes though don't need to sprint so can adapt for a big diesel engine.
I’ve been running first 3-5 miles then follow up with weight training for 30 min with air constricted elevation mask. My VO2 has went from 56.3 to 57.3 within one month
The Thing is just that zone 2 and HIT exercise have not the same goal. I agree that just for VO2max you should spend more time at a higher training zone like zone 4 (HIT) but if you want to improve your metabolic fat consumption you should train more in zone 2. So if you like to be a good endurance athlete you have to train both there are different pathways!
100% ^^^^^
The reason for zone 2 is also you can train more often because it low stress to the body, and it's lower chance of injury
I’ve really ever only heard of improving VO2 max by doing zone 5 intervals
I loosely follow Dr. Inigo San Millan's approach. 3 days a week I ride my bike for 1 hour in Zone 2, and I then punctuate with 5-7 minutes of all-out Zone 5. That'll "fix your wagon" pretty well. 3 other days a week I do a combination of strength training and kettlebell ballistic work.
Did you do 5 - 7 minutes of all-out Zone 5 right after 1-hour bike riding 🤔? Does HR Zone matters during your "strength days"?
@@lomaleks1332 Sure do. I get to about 58 minutes Z2 on my stationary bike, ease up for 2 minutes, then go as hard as I can for 5-7 minutes. My HR will get up to 180bpm (I'm 54 years old). I plan on incorporating the 4X4 once a week for varity. I DO use a Polar H10 for all my workouts, but I don't pay much attention to HR zones on strength/ballistic days.
The speaker discusses the benefits of high-intensity interval training (HIIT) on VO2 Max, emphasizing that shorter and more vigorous exercise sessions may yield similar improvements compared to longer, lower-intensity Zone 2 training.
Zone 2 training, characterized by lower intensity and longer durations (3 to 6 hours per week), is acknowledged but questioned in terms of time commitment.
The speaker suggests that more vigorous intensity exercise can lead to greater improvements in VO2 Max and may eliminate non-response issues observed in moderate intensity continuous exercise.
VO2 Max is explained as the maximum rate of oxygen uptake by the body, measured during incremental exercise tests. It is a key indicator of cardiovascular fitness and associated with longevity and reduced risk of chronic diseases.
The discussion touches on the 80/20 training ratio recommended for elite athletes (80% low to moderate intensity, 20% high intensity), but the speaker notes that this ratio may vary for individuals engaging in 1 to 4 hours of exercise per week, suggesting that more vigorous intensity exercise may offer additional benefits for time-pressed individuals.
Hi. Thank you in advance for your help. Is there any accurate online calculator for zones/max heart rate and between which pecentages of Max, Zone 2 pointed here falls
Biggest issue with HIIT is most gyms don’t know how to execute it in their programming. They have people do a circuit and maintain HR/demand while changing muscle groups, but there is not a rest period between bouts of high intensity exercise.
My zone 2 work is MOSTLY focused on two benefits; 'recovery but really its for time in the saddle and working on getting my body ready for long efforts. I'm not really a runner, but more a mnt biker, bikepacker, climber, backcountry skier, etc. So for me I'm actually using time to get my butt and hands habituated in sitting in the saddle for example. I still find intervals to give me the best fitness results.
I imagine that balance is key: alternate between different forms of exercise to maximize benefits.
Into San-Milan the cycling coach also says Zone 2 increases VO2 max but takes a regimented protocol and results aren’t seen for up to 6 months. For me zone 2 and hit are best for overall performance and health. There are no shortcuts
Glad I missed the memo about zone 2 increasing VO2- turns out, that non-existent paper was wrong after all
I am a trail runner and do both. Often during my runs I will blast up a hill or really get on it on the flat or slight downhills and run my HR up to near max, because it is fun. What I am saying is do BOTH. Always do HIT whenever you can, but if you like to run or workout, then go for some Zone Two also. I am willing to challenge this guy to a trail run and see who has the best ability regardless of whatever the VO2 max says. I am 59, this guy looks like 45-50.
I did not get any useful information out of this. Please be succinct and clear in your message.
So in the end he still didn't tell us what the minimum dose was
I've never heard anyone say VO2 max with increase with Zone 2. Seriously.
As a runner I'm drawn to these conversations but my Kenyan friends (some world champions) wouldn't know the first thing about scientific training. They still seem to be the best in their game. Take the young guy I ran with this morning 18 months training and his 5k pb is 14'30 at 2200m. He doesn't even own a stopwatch let alone a heart rate monitor.
So what is the lesson? Forget the science and run?
When looking at the research of Inigo San Millan, i’m convinced both is the most deal. Nothing affects metabolic health as powerfully, as a strong base of steady state zone two. But for those on major time constraints, it might be a little bit different.
Maybe I am missing something but I don’t see the bar chart in 1:34 showing results for low volume - high intensity group which is the appropriate comparison to support the claim that it is equivalent or better for Vo2 max improvement compared to the high volume - low intensity group.
Injury rates would go through the roof if everybody switched to just vo2max type workouts, which would be terrible for long term health and fitness.
I've never come across anything saying Z2 helps vo2M, it's just supposed to develop cardio system while not being intense enough to need much recovery?
Vo2 max HR training is not the best due to HR drift. Lactate threshold training is the king. However not all have access to that info. So, even through Vo2 Max HR % is not the best, what would be a goal for Vo2 max HR training. Zone 5 PE and or 80-95% Max HR? To once per week?
Thanks
Zone 2 increases mitochondrial function while Zone 3-4 increase strength.
At the 56 second mark, the host commented about “20 - 25 minutes of HIT training 3 - 4 times a week”. Assuming she was referring to V02 Max level training, that would be a REALLY hard load for a non-elite athlete to sustain. I wonder if she meant “once per week”??
Exactly, it's just way too much..
Well, in an interview with Peter Attia, I think she said she was doing Tabata every day or something. Obviously that can't be very optimal and would not reach vo2max adaptations with accumulated fatigue. I can't imagine doing more than 2 interval sessions per week, too much pain and fatigue.
Zone 2 training is lactate threshold training? I understand them to be very different.
Good luck getting 80% of the improvement in VO2max that an elite athlete achieves
My friend in South Africa completedv10 Comrades marathons, got his green number and boom, triple bypass surgery. VO2max did not help him.
Being fit won't override a bad diet.
I train about 7 hours per week with almost only zone 2 and i believe I'm at 95% of my generic vo2max (63, in my 40s). I'm also at 10% body fat which helps this value. So Ronda, as a committed exerciser, pretty sure you can get that 80% by training wisely, probably 80/20 zone 2 and hiit. It's important to be consistent, it takes 6 month to max vo2max and 6 month to lose it all.
I wouldn't be surprised if longevity effects are due to reverse causality, since being able to raise vo2max requires a healthy body, can't do it with crippled joints and bouts of angina.
I tried the 80/20 for 2 years after hearing Attia but couldn’t shift the dial on improving my VO2 max. Been doing 3 intervals per week for a couple of months and it’s noticeably improving. I’ve stopped actively trying to train zone 2. I walk regularly, zone 1 only I would think, which is pretty much the only steady state cardio I get. I think this explains the problem I was having with 80/20 and Zone 2. Basically I couldn’t get enough training volume in per week to shift the dial like elite athletes do or Attia does. Either that or I’m in the 40% of none responders 🤷🏻♂️
The graphic at 1:35 is missing high intensity with low volume. Is high intensity with high volume not a formula for injury?
Isn't there a metabolic different between Aerobic Efficiency (Zone 2 training) and Aerobic Power (Zone 4 & 5 VO2 Max/lactate threshold) and Anaerobic Endurance, Strength and Power. Therefore, cycling between both might be the better option?
Yes, all proper training programs has both in about 80/20.
What’s the goal? Improve health, improve performance in events less than 15min, improve performance in events >15min? Each of these goal require different focus in training
Any training event over 1 minute, aka 400m, requires basically the same trading. Training for a mile or a marathon is surprisingly similar.
When someone is doing 20 min of high Intensity training 3xs a week.. that’s 1 hour a week…
does This mean it’s the TOTAL time witch includes rest periods ?
For example today I did a hard 2 min run followed by a 3 min rest. I did 4 of those.. would that be considered HIIT for 8 minutes or for 20 minutes (which includes the rest period ) ?
U did 8 minutes at high intensity and 12 minutes of resting or walking to recover.
But that 20 minutes x 3 per week is good.
You might want to run 1 workout of 10 sec on the minute x 6-12. 10 sec / 50 sec work to rest .
At 6min- 4min pace per mile :
Once a week for anaerobic/ Sprint conditioning.
I can do those on my manual Treadmill at 10- 15 mph .
I ran Sprints in College and 800 in masters 70 year age group this year.
Going 4 national age group record if I can get in shape this year.
Google : Veronique Billat French Physiologist: she is a pioneer in vVO2 MAX type of training and has trained Olympic and professional athletes.
@@davidjanbaz7728....Good luck
I'm mid 50s with a Vo2 max of 49 - I train on the bike in zone 4 (threshold) roughly 8-10 hours a week. Over the course of the last 9 months, I have only seen my Vo2 Max increase from 48 to 49. I'm not really seeing any gains.
It may well be that you are at your limit of achievable VO2 max, I'm roughly the same age and also same estimated VO2 max. For me maybe losing weight would be the best way to compensate for VO2 max not being elite level, although good number for my age. I train differently, do quite a lot of zone 2, probably 80-20 between zone two and the harder stuff which is a bit random, sometimes pushing hard on the bike, sometimes running.
Vo2max takes 6 month to max out. You can't expect it to increase forever. You can however raise recovery and longer time at greater percentage of vo2max by training more hours. Ie. Sustain 1h at 80% vo2max instead of just 30m.
I think this video should be renamed to “this is the best way to increase your VO2 max if you have little time”. The Norwegians crushing endurance sports with some of the highest VO2 maxes are doing the majority of their training at low intensities for much longer durations. A few HIIT workouts a week won’t get you anywhere close. You have to put in the time (20-30+ hours per week) to increase your cardiac stroke volume and push your absolute VO2 max much higher.
I could not agree more with that.
2:07 "...now some of that non-response was eliminated in a group that was doing the same total amount of exercise, but in a more vigorous manner. So, that would seem to argue against Zone 2, somewhat."
I'm hung up on "same total amount of exercise." Isn't the tradeoff of Zone 2, as is mentioned in the initial question, that you need to do a greater volume of it? How does it make sense to compare the volumes equally?
Also, the very next paragraph of the paper cited while he says this says that non-response is not just mitigated by increased intensity:
'However, the growing consensus is that “non-responders” to training programs are based more on anecdotal than experimental evidence, with several investigations showing that the incidence of non-responders is abolished if training intensity is higher, training frequency is increased and/or the training mode switched from endurance to resistance training. Additionally, extending the length of the training program reduces the incidence of non-responders to training.'
Yeah, people seem to be talking past one another. The optimal approach depends on your bottleneck. For some, it's their ability to recover, for others - the time they have available. If you confuse the two, you will end up having an endless debate over nothing.
SO happy to hear this!
I respect Peter Attia, but his rationale for zone 2 simply comes from trusting & observing elite cyclists. As you've pointed out, most cannot put in the hours to make zone 2 work.
@Zane_Zaminsky I know that isnt Attia, he's the zone 2 advocate... not everyone is the same which is why we need to look at the data rather than look at the elite cyclist pool.
Playing ice hockey, I feel zone 2 has its place, but my best results come from all out max effort with a tread mill pointed up to the sky. Put my legs to the side, let treadmill slow down, catch my breath, walk between 1-4 minutes, then do it all over again...
But of course this is anecdotal
As I understand it, the 80/20 split is for the situation when it is your ability to handle training load that is the bottleneck. That is not the case for most people.
Plus we are not elite athletes. So we should not presume to adopt their strategies.
The 80/20 split idea became popular after the research done by Prof Stephen Seiler collecting data from a range of elite athletes in endurance sports. Interestingly this type of split has been studied for people who are not elite and who are exercising much less - if my memory serves me i think they were doing 4 hours a week. In comparison to other ways of distributing time and intensity the 80/20 came out on top even for these people. There is other research showing that high intensity interval training provides these big benefits but for most people only up to twice a week, hardly anyone gets extra benefit from 3 or 4 sessions of HIIT each week. So if you are really time poor, by all means do 2 or maybe 3 20 min HIIT sessions a week as your only exercise (keeping in mind the potential for injury can be higher with high intensity exercise). If you have a little more time to spare then you will benefit from doing one or 2 HIIT sessions, plus as much time as you can manage in zone 2. Zone 2 is defined as being at or just below the rate at which you burn the most fat, for most people this is around 60-70% of max HR, and where you can talk fairly easily. If you are not fit, or are overweight it is very easy to find yourself above zone 2. On the other hand if you are well trained, zone 2 can be harder than you might think, up to 80% max HR for example. The other pitfall is that people often underestimate how hard they need to go to properly do HIIT - you really need to do some kind of exercise like running, cycling, rowing, swimming and you need to be aiming to get your HR to the 85-95% max HR range by the end of each interval. There are a few different interval protocols which all work well, such as the 4 x 4mins, or 40/20's or 30/15's, or 30/30's and all kinds of variations...do a search and you can easily find the details of these.
Important to clarify that “maximize” in this case is not potential. He’s referring your current aerobic capacity, not the fitness you could achieve if you dedicated the time.
Your body does best what it does most. If you do all your miles in zone 2 then you will only get good at running slowly. If you want to run fast then you have to run faster.
When did exercising get this complicated??
Science is complex.
@@thebrownviking9523 well, it isn't for the person who can comprehend stuff... Exercise should never get this complicated.. my take is, do basic medical tests to make sure you don't have an underlying problem, start slowly and build it up.. your body will do the rest of the work
Learn about this more in my new book, "How to take the fun out of exercising."
Firstly, it's important that we do something physical with regularity. HIIT is not going to work for everyone and Z2 training likewise. For me, I followed a training routine through my Garmin membership which utilised a mix of long slow runs with 800m repeats (at around 4 min/km, roughly 6:25 min/mile) and 3 min walks in sets of 8. This would add up to about 2hrs/week.
Admittedly I've been a runner for some time, but my VO2 Max got to 54 (at age 54) from 45 in something like 5 months. Unfortunately it's back to 45 now and I'm psyching up to get back to it (now age 56). At the time, I felt stronger than I had since my 20s, and seemingly immune from all the bugs around me. Cheers - Dave
Vo2 takes 6 month to max out with proper training. 6 month to lose it to by not training Not sure why Peter Attia seems to imply that you could raise it so much by training for years ahead of getting old.
@@purpleblueunicorn I think in some ways it depends very much on the individual. Right now, 2 years later and I'm not sure I'm as inclined to push myself as hard as I did at 54. Injuries are also a concern too. So the chances of me getting a VO2 Max somewhere near my age now are in decline.
@@deldridg so Vo2max is a consequence of your health as long as you're inclined to train it, which to me seems a reverse causality thing. If you're always injured, you just can't train your Vo2max
Do both!
Instead of incessant argument about which zone is best for this or that just make sure your weekly mileage incorporates a proportion (decided by you) of all zones.
I think you cant always go hard, lowering imune sistem and dont have much time to recover , maby 2x hiit vo2.
i'm not aware of anyone suggesting zone 2 can improve vo2 max.
It doesn’t, that’s why people who only ever run in zone 2 never get any faster.
My understanding of zone 2 from running is not lactate threshold.... but below that.... more like aerobic threshold...
Zone 2 is under lt1, under 2mmol/L. Lactate threshold is lt2 where you cross 4.0.
Do you want us to listen to the experts or read the slides?
I'm confused about what Zone 2 actually is. Peter Attia's guideline is not "allows for easy conversation." He's always stated that you can talk, but you don't want to. It's NOT easy to have a conversation.
It's not EASY but it's not uneasy 😅
You can talk if you have to, but it's not confortable like if you were just walking slowly
@@highseastrader4190 Right, but the guideline in this video says it's easy to have a conversation. Not labored breathing. That's the opposite of what Attia says zone 2 is.
Zone 2 training refers to exercising at a low intensity, specifically between 60% and 70% of your maximum heart rate (MHR). It's often described as a comfortable pace where you can hold a conversation without feeling winded.
Here's how to calculate your Zone 2 heart rate:
* Find your maximum heart rate (MHR). There are several ways to do this, but a common method is to subtract your age from 220.
* Multiply your MHR by 0.6 and 0.7. This will give you the lower and upper limits of your Zone 2 heart rate range.
@@Filipp81 Thanks, yes I've seen that definition before. But it contradicts Attia's and other's definition which is more in the 70-80% range. Hence the confusion.
70% of maxHR is too easy for me, I don't think it's enough to be called Z2.
75%-80% is a better Z2 range, at leat for me. It's when it's still relatively easy but I can't speak normally.
The problem with HIIT schemes is nobody sticks with them. Some folk jog. Some play basketball or disc golf or pickle ball or bike or hike. But I don't know anybody who's ever stuck with a HIIT routine disconnected from some sport, unless they work in the fitness field or are using it once a week to train for a marathon or supplement softball, etc.
Actually I have. I run 3-4 miles 2x/week and also do HIIT/SIT sessions every 4 days. I'll be 54 next month.
HIIT = diminishing returns
@keithzastrow Great! There's also an exception. Somebody who's got a supernatural will. But then again, in your 2 runs a week, are you keeping yourself in shape for local 5ks? Not saying you are. Just that it may very well be that without those jogs it might be hard to stick to the 3x/2week HIIT routine for the last 20 years or longer. Because folk who jog in their 20s are often still jogging in their 70s. Nobody was doing Orange Theory in the 1980s.
@@Shevock I actually took 3rd place in a 5K last August. The only 2 people who beat me were 2 boys from a high school cross country team. Not bad for 53 years old lol.
@@anathamon Literally ALL of the scientific research out there proves the opposite of your comment.
If that study about types of exercise was over 6 years and not 6 months, my guess would be that the lower intensities would have performed much better in the comparison. This is important because most people who set out to train their endurance should expect it to take years, not months.
It is always important to do a few sessions fast, too.
Vo2max maxes out in about 6 month with proper training. You can improve efficiency and lactate at vo2max with years of training so increase speed with same vo2max which is limited by genetics.
@@purpleblueunicornI hadn't realised that. Very interesting. Thank you for the correction.
The chart at 1:33 is garbage and does NOT fit the conversation. You see bars pointing to low vol/low intensity, high vol/low intensity and then the damn thing skips to high vol/high intensity even tho this whole convo centers on LOW vol/ high intensity.
Over complexing simple. if you want lungs to support an intensity level for time train the lungs at the desired intensity level for the desired length of time. Basic threshold training
In summary: If you don’t have copious amounts of time, you can supplement zone 2 exercise with high intensity exercise and achieve similar results.
I feel It's not a wise idea to simply aim for vo2 max wo/ conditioning your heart.
PA has.nicely explained it with an analogy of a triangle where the base would be your zone-2 and peak would be your vo2 max.
Just aiming for vo2 max without conditioning your cardio-respiratory system is not appealing to me. May be I am wrong wrt to vo2max training.
Remember zone-2 helps with a lot of things like conditioning,endurance, reduction in anxiety , BP etc .
Ratio.of.zone-2:vo2 training can be different according to different people but one has to understand that zone-2 has its undisputed place in the exercise regimen
If Hiit training develops great vo2 max how come no olympians or world record holders are coming from f45 and BFT who state they do HIIT training.
Simple answer is that they dont do hiit and volume is too low
The best way to increase aerobic performance is 70-80% of your time in zone 2 and 20-30% of your time at higher intensities.
runners figured this out 50 years ago....
It seems that the interviewee has missed the memo on the objectives of low intensity training and HIIT training.
For many who pick up injuries during HIIT, Zone 2 is probably better. Personally, I am losing weight just walking.
Why do some runners have heart attacks
Peter Attiya is looking different today.
If you are a serious elite athlete that trains 15-20 hours a week, you are not working a full time job or exposed to as much other day to day stress that most people are and if so your athletic career is not going to be long and healthy. Personally I think allot of average people can get in trouble with overtraining by trying to do too much and not evaluating all of the stress, (mental, chemical and physical) that they are exposed to on a daily basis. Listen to your brain and don’t pound out a specific program just because it’s the latest fad. Learn what good training load balance feels like in your own body so that something that can be very beneficial doesn’t turn into a misguided unhealthy mistake.
A few years ago, UA-cam was all about HIIT. Then zone 2 became the fad. I predict that threshold runs will be the next big thing. Hmm, that pretty much covers all the different runs I do for my marathon training right?
Haha maybe. Lydiard's training was all about Z2 with tempos during base and then add the speed before an event. Polarized training seems to be liked by many. I personally love threshold and hate intervals, people now call it junk zone. It's all good.
@@purpleblueunicorn Z2 is SO boring. This morning I just did a 30 minutes threshold and called it a day.
@@watcherworld5873 I just did 2h. Z2 while watching the beekeeper, not boring at all!
Athletes and coaches have known for decades that the greatest impact on vo2 max is interval training. 2 to 3x per week. HIIT is just someone’s hyperbolic attempt on getting people to think they have some new trick. They don’t.
If it's purely for health benefits there's no need for "cardio" at all. resistance training intensely will give you all the benefits and is a lot safer on joints etc
People who say that Zone 2 training is new clearly know nothing about training
Highly conflicting interview when compared to what Attia had to say to Rhonda. Attia espouses the 80/20 ratio for everyone but he has been criticized for having an exercise bias from some. Very confusing.
Zone 3