No matter how much practice you do for a piece to camera, For someone to rattle off all them regs in normal talk speed you must go to bed reading the book 🤯😂well done joe
PME is frankly dangerous. I remember around 16yrs ago attending a new build house. The client complaining that the electrics were doing 'funny things'. On entering the kitchen and put my hand on the stainless steel kitchen sink - I got an ALMIGHTY belt from it. A little investigation and found the PME earth and neutral were connected together , but had come loose in the head. Like I say dangerous stuff.
That’s a Nice little unit . Very well explained and very interesting and informative. Even though I am not a fan of EV charging and electric cars . I did find it interesting Fantastic video Joe as always 👍❤️
@@efixx yup watched the before I got mine installed. Really useful as it have me an understanding of the very basics so I knew what my electrician was talking about :-)
Brilliant explanation. I can see so many electricians moving into installing EV charge points, and getting totally confused. So many things go against their instincts.
10:04 load curtailment by the PEN detection device is a terrible way to do it, as it would be disconnecting at full load. If this is a risk, you should be using a chargepoint that can regulate charge current based on total load, so current can be reduced gracefully by the car's onboard charger.
@@timballam3675 Not entirely true. The way these pen faults operate is they watch for the Voltage and if outside of a range they act. So, you might have a situation where there is no problem with the neutral but voltage is 200V and the pen fault will disconnect the car while it's being charged. Hence the need the conctactor to tick the "on load" requirement.
Guys I ask again surely an GARO or viridian unit cod be used for section 721 caravans which are on rubber wheels and use solar dc and ac. Rather than the country exporting earth's using an adaptor at home to plug into there home and down the 25m orange lead in the garden or drive.
Last time we talked to Matt::e. these devices were not CE or UKCA Approved or marked making them unlawful for sale or use. and therefore a deviation note on an EICR. Looking at the internals they also dont appear to meet BS EN 60204. The device itself is outside of BS7671 but the fundamental principals and chapter 51 require that equipment be approved, tested and CE marked. How many will fail EICR’s in the future? I know they have added a DOC but still no UKCA mark.
Any faster speaking than this and Einstein will have to review the fact that there is no higher speed than the speed of light. Although a brilliant videoclip as most from Effix, either a transcript or a slower pace would help. Thank you Joe.
You guys and your videos are brilliant. Question for you all. Bs7671 touch voltage 50v EV charger Pen Devise 70v.ok may I ask even though its not in the regs but surely for safety would it not be good to use this device for a caravan sat at home considering that millions of people buy those 13 amp Adaptors to connect up there motor homes and caravans with there 25m orange leads. I would have thought that it would be safer to use an ev open pen devise for a caravan. Caravan has wheels, 240and dc. And solar.
Good questions - We assume you mean when connecting a caravan at home. On caravan sites TNCS isn't allowed and must be TT' supply - see our CPD module - www.efixx.co.uk/Know%20How/bs7671-caravan-site-installations
Millions of caravan and motor homeers connect to there home. Would it not be a safer option to use one of the viridian or GARO devices. Would be safer!
I believe so - however its quite difficult to do "to code" in many situations - siting of the earth electrode(s) and length and size of earth conductor. Its covered in one of John wards videos.
No, unless you make the chairing point purely TT. Earth rods do not protect you. Remember the greatest voltage loss is at the greatest resistance i.e. on the earth rod. TT is considered safe as the spot is RCD protected so no low impedance fault path is needed,
I have a question... EV is a bit of a pain.. If you install Single Phase C32 MCB off a 3 phase commercial EV consumer unit to feed a Garo single phase 40A Open consumer unit outlet which incorporates a Type B RCBO (B40AS) 30mA unit feeding a 13amp socket outlet with 4mm SWA which for charging Hybrid cars only is this acceptable. Hybrid cars are designed to be charged at home of a 13a socket outlet. They Trickle Charge using manufactures supplied 13a charging lead? Is it not better to over protect then under?
One thing that I have noticed is that it is not a standard thing to have a dwelling or construction connected to the mass of earth via means of an earthing rod or connection to reinforcing structures. It is only done in, (remote situations from supply) or in older instalations. Here in New Zealand we require both a Neutral return path to the transformer and connection to the mass of earth. Can you tell me why it is that you don't require the same? Another thing with our system is Earth (CPC) and Neutral bus bar are linked, with a removeable link for testing.
It is simply that the grounding of the neutral which is done at several points is the responsibility of the service provider. Am earth rod does not protect against PEN faults.
@@SnotrocketLT4US different from the fact that the low voltage network is very short, typically just a cable to the nearby transformer. Also because of the split phase the neutral voltage at a PEN fault is 0-120 V and not 240 V like in the UK.
Great video. It would be good to see the alternatives to the matte please. This looks a little flimsy and I've read that it can be noisy. I would prefer something a little more industrial in my garage.
I want to add a single phase ev charger to a 3 phase installation? Its PME at origin and earth rods are required for the ev charger but are not practible to install. Would a single phase matt e work or would i nees a 3 phase matt e?
Great video. Confused about one thing. This is not a criticism.. just trying to make sense of it. You advise on your other video that AC RCD’s may not trip in domestic premises with DC leakage with so much technology? Then get a Type A RCD? Or B/F? Which will prevent DC leakage stunning the RCD?. The Matt E device has thr A type in? So why would the charger require the RDC DD device to detect DC leakage? Hope you can respond so I can understand. Thank you 🙏🏻
A type A RCD can withstand a small amount of DC leakage current flowing through it. They will not detect the DC leakage and trip. In this scenario the charger has to have the DC leakage element of the RCD function built in.
@@efixx so what your saying is that the A type may not trip over 6mA of DC passing through it? So the RDC DD will trip if 6mA plus detected? Is the RDC DD device a B type? Or even an RCD at all? The likes of the Zappi must have the A type, PEN fault protection and the RDC DD built in then? All 3?
Top tip- Only ever use an installer who is approved by the company supplying the equipment. If they dont have approved installers choose a better charger.
O-Pen devices do not have a product standard so the installer is responsible. Are you happy to break and make the earth with a contactor that cannot handle the likely fault currents? Where closing to a fault could cause the earth contact to fail leaving just the live! In my opinion it is not safe to switch a earth unless it is monitored. Eg the earth continuity is checked before the phase can close. I think they introduce a greater risk than a PME fault. Also unlikely to comply with the electricity at work act as a contactor is not designed for maintaining continuity when closing to a fault.
So if these devices aren't permitted on 3 phase installs, what are the options? We have a 3 phase tn-c-s supply to the property although the house and hence ev charger only uses 1 phase. We had a Rolec charger installed in 2017 and it has no earth rod, nor pen fault unit.
@@okaro6595 That relies on the EVSE being 3 phase, and the connected vehicle making use of all 3 phases (the Nissan Leaf is single phase only), neither of which can be guaranteed.
How often do PEN faults realistically occure? Or are we just looking for new potential electrical hazards, that are a extraordinary rare occurrence? Do European countries have any PEN fault protection?
If a pen cable earth fault is likely why are these protection devices not fitted as standard? Or in other words if you dont have a EV charge point installed its ok for for metal work within the house to have the potential of bercoming live, or am i missing something here? The word IF is very apparent here, so IF i get hit by a lightning bolt what are the chances of me surviving?
An EV is a large grounded surface in that you may touch while standing in the ground. When you are inside the home the main risk is between devices and water pipes (taps). Bonding protects against that. Now it may well be that at sometime in the future these are mandated generally. After all of every house gets one why not protect the whole house. It is good that they have now reacted to the new risk i.e. the EV chargers.
@@efixx It depends on the house. If your house is built with concrete and bricks and the floor is tiles then you have a problem when the neutral is gone.
Sorry, you are an electrician, please get it correct. "70V will kill you" is not correct. A CURRENT of down to 100mA (0.1A) can kill you if it goes through your chest - via you hand (on the car) and your feet (on the ground). A voltage that can result in this current, or higher, to flow you will kill you, and that voltage can can very small if you are very wet (and skin soaked), and quite large if dry and you are wearing footwear that is mostly insulator. 1) This means 20 volts is just as dangerous as 500 volts in wet conditions. 2) The internal resistance of a human in the dry with plastic shoes is very unlikely to electrocuted even at 240V. You may define this as pedantic, but how can you discuss the difference between earth bonding and CPC if you make this comment.
@@okaro6595 ever touched an electric fence, it is 5000 V, it will not kill you as current is tiny as it uses a capacitor to limit the current available. A van der graaf generator is 50,000 to 2,000,000 volts and you actually feel very little effect as the current is very very tiny - depending on thr capacitance of the dome, of order micro amps. Can I recommend you don't contribute to an electrician's channel with such I limited knowledge.
And you can ignore all this and wire a regular 3pin socket to charge your car and it’s deemed perfectly acceptable… I really don’t know who these nutters are trying to enforce these dated electric cars. For one the UK grid carnt even cope with the load and secondly we’re moving away from electric vehicles, even our EV course tutor didn’t believe in them.
No matter how much practice you do for a piece to camera, For someone to rattle off all them regs in normal talk speed you must go to bed reading the book 🤯😂well done joe
Brand new to renewables, cannot express my thanks for efixx properly for your videos
Very informative video with all relevant regulations shown and covers most of the important points of EV charging point installation. Thank you!!
PME is frankly dangerous. I remember around 16yrs ago attending a new build house. The client complaining that the electrics were doing 'funny things'. On entering the kitchen and put my hand on the stainless steel kitchen sink - I got an ALMIGHTY belt from it. A little investigation and found the PME earth and neutral were connected together , but had come loose in the head. Like I say dangerous stuff.
This is fantastic, really clear and concise.
Love a bit of Matt:e great innovation
Another very informative video guys. Keep it up.
That’s a Nice little unit .
Very well explained and very interesting and informative.
Even though I am not a fan of EV charging and electric cars .
I did find it interesting
Fantastic video Joe as always 👍❤️
Thanks Sean, there's some interesting stuff needed for EV charge points.
@@efixx ? How many years has it taken to separate the charging socket from the enclosure of charging control assembly?
Just had a Tesla Gen 3 wall charger installed with that Matt:e device. I like the look of the Tesla charger ;-)
Tell me you got a tesla without telling me
Check out this video to see the install of a Tesla charger. ua-cam.com/video/_SIzebzSxc0/v-deo.html
@@efixx yup watched the before I got mine installed. Really useful as it have me an understanding of the very basics so I knew what my electrician was talking about :-)
Noice. Glad it helped! 😊
How much was the Matt:e device?
Tesla charger is £475 right John?
Brilliant explanation. I can see so many electricians moving into installing EV charge points, and getting totally confused. So many things go against their instincts.
Well said
Thanks for an informative video that has been viewed multiple times. Can you elaborate on the final point you made (10.33 onwards) please? Thank you.
10:04 load curtailment by the PEN detection device is a terrible way to do it, as it would be disconnecting at full load. If this is a risk, you should be using a chargepoint that can regulate charge current based on total load, so current can be reduced gracefully by the car's onboard charger.
Yeah it's a real hack....not healthy for the car at all
@@daverann it may be bad for the car but at least the operator won't die
Generally when you have a pen fault you lose eart and neutral so have no power just a live so the car can't charge anyway.
@@timballam3675 Not entirely true. The way these pen faults operate is they watch for the Voltage and if outside of a range they act. So, you might have a situation where there is no problem with the neutral but voltage is 200V and the pen fault will disconnect the car while it's being charged. Hence the need the conctactor to tick the "on load" requirement.
Fantastic content 👏🏻
Nice Pi ZeroW
Guys I ask again surely an GARO or viridian unit cod be used for section 721 caravans which are on rubber wheels and use solar dc and ac. Rather than the country exporting earth's using an adaptor at home to plug into there home and down the 25m orange lead in the garden or drive.
Last time we talked to Matt::e. these devices were not CE or UKCA Approved or marked making them unlawful for sale or use. and therefore a deviation note on an EICR.
Looking at the internals they also dont appear to meet BS EN 60204.
The device itself is outside of BS7671 but the fundamental principals and chapter 51 require that equipment be approved, tested and CE marked.
How many will fail EICR’s in the future?
I know they have added a DOC but still no UKCA mark.
The Sync EV is literally the same size and has pen fault, type A , WiFi, GSM, ethernet port built in...
As a designer and after direct discussion with SPEN they will not allow O PEN devices to be installed on their network.
Any faster speaking than this and Einstein will have to review the fact that there is no higher speed than the speed of light. Although a brilliant videoclip as most from Effix, either a transcript or a slower pace would help. Thank you Joe.
You guys and your videos are brilliant. Question for you all. Bs7671 touch voltage 50v EV charger Pen Devise 70v.ok may I ask even though its not in the regs but surely for safety would it not be good to use this device for a caravan sat at home considering that millions of people buy those 13 amp Adaptors to connect up there motor homes and caravans with there 25m orange leads. I would have thought that it would be safer to use an ev open pen devise for a caravan. Caravan has wheels, 240and dc. And solar.
Good questions - We assume you mean when connecting a caravan at home. On caravan sites TNCS isn't allowed and must be TT' supply - see our CPD module - www.efixx.co.uk/Know%20How/bs7671-caravan-site-installations
@@efixx yes I mean at home only
Millions of caravan and motor homeers connect to there home. Would it not be a safer option to use one of the viridian or GARO devices. Would be safer!
Stupid question maybe but the car on the thumbnail, which brand is that ?
Would a earth electrode connected to property’s consumer unit earth rail (TNCS supply), be an alternative way to protect against PEN faults?
I believe so - however its quite difficult to do "to code" in many situations - siting of the earth electrode(s) and length and size of earth conductor. Its covered in one of John wards videos.
No, unless you make the chairing point purely TT. Earth rods do not protect you. Remember the greatest voltage loss is at the greatest resistance i.e. on the earth rod.
TT is considered safe as the spot is RCD protected so no low impedance fault path is needed,
Do you switch from grey outside to dark inside?
Just checking I am not going insane.
😂 No you're not, I think it was a combination of the light and camera settings. I did a double take myself!
Do you need a 40amp pen fault unit ? My electrician wants to fit a 100a pen fault for my Tesla charger is this ok ?
I have a question... EV is a bit of a pain.. If you install Single Phase C32 MCB off a 3 phase commercial EV consumer unit to feed a Garo single phase 40A Open consumer unit outlet which incorporates a Type B RCBO (B40AS) 30mA unit feeding a 13amp socket outlet with 4mm SWA which for charging Hybrid cars only is this acceptable. Hybrid cars are designed to be charged at home of a 13a socket outlet.
They Trickle Charge using manufactures supplied 13a charging lead? Is it not better to over protect then under?
Great video as usual....does anyone knows if there is there a way of measuring how much DC current is leaking back into your circuit...thanks
One thing that I have noticed is that it is not a standard thing to have a dwelling or construction connected to the mass of earth via means of an earthing rod or connection to reinforcing structures. It is only done in, (remote situations from supply) or in older instalations. Here in New Zealand we require both a Neutral return path to the transformer and connection to the mass of earth. Can you tell me why it is that you don't require the same? Another thing with our system is Earth (CPC) and Neutral bus bar are linked, with a removeable link for testing.
Neutral and earth are linked at the transformer and the consumers service head. However the electrician can’t unlink them.
We have the same setup as you have, here in USA.
It is simply that the grounding of the neutral which is done at several points is the responsibility of the service provider. Am earth rod does not protect against PEN faults.
@@SnotrocketLT4US different from the fact that the low voltage network is very short, typically just a cable to the nearby transformer.
Also because of the split phase the neutral voltage at a PEN fault is 0-120 V and not 240 V like in the UK.
Great detailed video! How much is a Matt-E?
Great video. It would be good to see the alternatives to the matte please. This looks a little flimsy and I've read that it can be noisy. I would prefer something a little more industrial in my garage.
Did you find an alternative?
I want to add a single phase ev charger to a 3 phase installation? Its PME at origin and earth rods are required for the ev charger but are not practible to install. Would a single phase matt e work or would i nees a 3 phase matt e?
Great video. Confused about one thing. This is not a criticism.. just trying to make sense of it. You advise on your other video that AC RCD’s may not trip in domestic premises with DC leakage with so much technology? Then get a Type A RCD? Or B/F? Which will prevent DC leakage stunning the RCD?.
The Matt E device has thr A type in? So why would the charger require the RDC DD device to detect DC leakage?
Hope you can respond so I can understand. Thank you 🙏🏻
A type A RCD can withstand a small amount of DC leakage current flowing through it. They will not detect the DC leakage and trip. In this scenario the charger has to have the DC leakage element of the RCD function built in.
@@efixx so what your saying is that the A type may not trip over 6mA of DC passing through it? So the RDC DD will trip if 6mA plus detected? Is the RDC DD device a B type? Or even an RCD at all?
The likes of the Zappi must have the A type, PEN fault protection and the RDC DD built in then? All 3?
What about being able to test the open PEN protection of the Matt e device? Is this something that may be included in amendment 2 of BS7671 I wonder?
Just drop the neutral out
Cannot see the need for open pen fault as if no neutral then contactor on vehicle would open so no power on vehicle.most properties are pme.
You don’t loose the neutral as in a PME system earth is connected to neutral.
Top tip- Only ever use an installer who is approved by the company supplying the equipment. If they dont have approved installers choose a better charger.
Hes voided the warranty on that mini pro there is no back entry with those
O-Pen devices do not have a product standard so the installer is responsible. Are you happy to break and make the earth with a contactor that cannot handle the likely fault currents? Where closing to a fault could cause the earth contact to fail leaving just the live!
In my opinion it is not safe to switch a earth unless it is monitored.
Eg the earth continuity is checked before the phase can close.
I think they introduce a greater risk than a PME fault.
Also unlikely to comply with the electricity at work act as a contactor is not designed for maintaining continuity when closing to a fault.
Talk dirty to me with all those standards!
So if these devices aren't permitted on 3 phase installs, what are the options? We have a 3 phase tn-c-s supply to the property although the house and hence ev charger only uses 1 phase. We had a Rolec charger installed in 2017 and it has no earth rod, nor pen fault unit.
Video looking at three phase devices coming soon.,
The risk in three phase is less as if the load is balanced there would not be voltage on the neutral.
@@okaro6595 That relies on the EVSE being 3 phase, and the connected vehicle making use of all 3 phases (the Nissan Leaf is single phase only), neither of which can be guaranteed.
How often do PEN faults realistically occure? Or are we just looking for new potential electrical hazards, that are a extraordinary rare occurrence? Do European countries have any PEN fault protection?
About 400 per year with 70 injuries. Germany has TNCS with foundation earthing so fewer issues. Italy is mainly TT
@@efixx Wow that's more often than I imagined🤔. I suppose some of the grid is quite old.
That’s quite a shocking statistic
Gone through the back of the EO mini invalidates the warranty.....bottom entry only
I've seen loads of EOs fit this way including most of their marketing material.
I know but it does state in the manufactures instructions that it invalidates warranty
@@daverann how odd of them! Probably another reason why I wouldn't fit them.
Why not just install a RCD and earth-rod?
An RCD does nothing against a PEN fault. Did you mean make it TT?
@@okaro6595 Yes, My mistake. Of course only when the soil makes it possible.
What is going on with that utility's cutout!?
Pretty standard set up in the UK - including the sloped board at the front.
@@efixx yeah the sloped board threw me off, in NI they'd always try and use the cavity to get in.
I need to translate it
If a pen cable earth fault is likely why are these protection devices not fitted as standard? Or in other words if you dont have a EV charge point installed its ok for for metal work within the house to have the potential of bercoming live, or am i missing something here? The word IF is very apparent here, so IF i get hit by a lightning bolt what are the chances of me surviving?
Within the house you don’t generally make contact between an earth wire and the general mass of Earth 🌎
An EV is a large grounded surface in that you may touch while standing in the ground.
When you are inside the home the main risk is between devices and water pipes (taps). Bonding protects against that.
Now it may well be that at sometime in the future these are mandated generally. After all of every house gets one why not protect the whole house.
It is good that they have now reacted to the new risk i.e. the EV chargers.
@@efixx It depends on the house. If your house is built with concrete and bricks and the floor is tiles then you have a problem when the neutral is gone.
Sorry Its A type A RCBO
Sorry, you are an electrician, please get it correct. "70V will kill you" is not correct.
A CURRENT of down to 100mA (0.1A) can kill you if it goes through your chest - via you hand (on the car) and your feet (on the ground). A voltage that can result in this current, or higher, to flow you will kill you, and that voltage can can very small if you are very wet (and skin soaked), and quite large if dry and you are wearing footwear that is mostly insulator.
1) This means 20 volts is just as dangerous as 500 volts in wet conditions.
2) The internal resistance of a human in the dry with plastic shoes is very unlikely to electrocuted even at 240V.
You may define this as pedantic, but how can you discuss the difference between earth bonding and CPC if you make this comment.
What I actually said was "70V is enough to kill", which you've then gone on to confirm is correct via your own reasoning. Thanks.
You are not going to get 100ma through you at 20v no matter how wet you get.
Obviously 500 volts has a greater danger than 20 volts. Also how are you going to receive a 500 v to ground shock from a 230v to earth supply?
Just stop that "it is the current" nonsense. Any practical system can deliver enough current to kill. It is the voltage that counts.
@@okaro6595 ever touched an electric fence, it is 5000 V, it will not kill you as current is tiny as it uses a capacitor to limit the current available. A van der graaf generator is 50,000 to 2,000,000 volts and you actually feel very little effect as the current is very very tiny - depending on thr capacitance of the dome, of order micro amps. Can I recommend you don't contribute to an electrician's channel with such I limited knowledge.
And you can ignore all this and wire a regular 3pin socket to charge your car and it’s deemed perfectly acceptable…
I really don’t know who these nutters are trying to enforce these dated electric cars. For one the UK grid carnt even cope with the load and secondly we’re moving away from electric vehicles, even our EV course tutor didn’t believe in them.