Repair, Restoration, Conservation and Outright Fakery
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- Опубліковано 26 лип 2024
- In this episode, we'll discuss the differences between repairs, restorations, conservations and outright fakery. We'll also look at some firearms and talk about what types of firearms might be suitable for the different levels of work and how it may affect their value.
I personally like guns with wear, they tell a story, plus you don’t feel bad about shooting them
I wish you were closer to Wisconsin! I’d volunteer to come help you in your workshop!! You have a lot to give. I’m glad you take the time to share these precious nuggets of wisdom!!
Ha. A Westerner only wishes he was farther from Wisconsin. My family moved West in 1868 to get away from Cheeseheads.
Haha, I said the same thing a year ago. I was wishing i could move from Ky to there.
This was a very well done discussion on the differences between repairs, restorations, conservations and fakes. At one point in my life, I built musical instruments, then later collected vintage instruments. I experienced all the things you discussed here today. The number of attempted fakes were unbelievable. Most were easy to spot, but I did run across a couple of examples that were very well done. Like yourself, I love the old cowboy guns. Thankfully, I'm old, broke & can no longer afford to participate in the collector game, otherwise, I would be camped out in the corner of your shop :) Great video, loved it allot. Thanks.
Always like your honesty and a great information you put out,, 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
One thing I have always done with any work on originals is to provide a detailed document of the condition of the firearm when it came into the shop and all of the work I had done to the piece to stay with the item as a part of its history and provenance. Dealing primarily with 18th century pieces I felt this was really important due to the “fakery” that goes on. Good video!
Excellent advice!
Excellent video, thanks! Reminded me of Great Grandad's hammer - it's had the handle replaced five times, and the head changed twice - *but it's still the same old hammer!* LOL!
Wow Mark, you had me going with that 1895, .405 when you said "we could really make this an attractive gun by going in and doing some restoration work." I almost choked and heart palpitations!! Thank God you said, "but we're not going to touch it!" Now, I'm getting on the older side of living, and talk like that can be a bit dangerous in my camp anymore! I suggest you put a forewarning in the video to prevent old collectors or appreciators of fine original firearms like me, from having a major medical emergency!! You know us old-timers have one foot in the grave and another on a banana peal, and talk like that can.... Lol!
I found a Model 92 winchester in 44-40 with strange markings. and after research I found that the carbine had gone around the world through England then to Argentina as a police carbine. When Argentina was through with these carbines, they were setting up a new arsonal to repair their military rifles. So to get experience these 92 winchesters were reconditioned with new barrels and any parts needed reblued and sorry to say sanded the stocks. After finding the right diameter bullet this rifle shoots great. I like the history and the way it shoots, have not gotten a groundhog with it yet But I am sure I will. Love your videos.
I'm glad you made this video and referenced Mark Novak. Mark and others are doing a great job of educating gun owners and collectors about conversion and maintenance. As a collector I do my own conservation and I do it for others. Not really as a business. If we are going to save these guns for future generations we have to do the work now.
Your channel has quickly become one of my favorites. You're a natural in front of the camera. I hope I can be that way in front of a camera eventually
You're doing fine. Keep up the good work. It keeps getting easier.
I happen to be the owner of Winchester Lever-Action shotgun s/n 369. Not only is it from the first YEAR of production, but the Cody letter says that its from the first MONTH of production, June 1887. Plus, it was never sent back to the factory to be upgraded with dual extractors, it's still an original single extractor shotgun.
Before I acquired it, it had been severely neglected and then someone decided to completely refinish the gun and did their best to preserve the wood, but simply ended up coating it in clear varnish.
The factory stampings are clean and it functions and shoots well, so I'm lucky in that respect, but I've often considered if I should have a proper restoration done.
I think another category is a “reset”. That being a complete restart of finish and condition. It sickens me to see any change in an original finish other than conservation. Keep up the great videos. I too collect Winchester rifles from the pre Spanish-American war. I specializes in the rough an unwanted rifles. Bringing them back to full time use on my ranch in Washington.
Always buy the Firearm , not the story. ✔
Cinnabar, thanks for sharing this wonderful article. I thoroughly enjoyed watching it.
Even though some of the firearms you displayed had some issues, I fell in love with them. There's nothing like an old Winchester or Colts revolvers.
Stan
I have done a few like that. I have had people give me rifle that they thought were garbage and not worthy of restoration. I just can't let them die, so I breath new life into them. Not sure why anyone would carve their initials in one, but they do. I enjoy your videos, thank you for your content.
In the mid 70's my dad got two '93 7x57 Mausers for my brother and I to hunt whitetails. A big step up from our single shot 20ga. We absolutely butchered these by sporterizing but they were great shooters and quite accurate.
This was a great topic and I'm glad you covered it.
So enjoying your videos, always interesting and so well presented. The depth of knowledge is so inspiring, as is your easy going style of presentation. Thanks very much
Great video! Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience with us that are not as schooled as you. I started collecting just a few years ago and have learned a lot from watching your videos, and I agree with all your thoughts and opinions on the topics that you talked about on this video. So thanks for all you do that benefit the rest of us. I'm planning on making a trip out your way sometime this year.
I have a pretty good collection of Winchester brand lever action guns (56 total). So I really appreciate and respect this video!
Mark, you are a good speaker and this was an interesting episode. Thank you 🙂
I really like what you're doing here @ the Cinnabar! With so many types of older "western" styles of firearms it's good to know that some folks are paying attention to these historically engineered "tools" for their times! Keep up the good work Cinnabar!
I was glad to hear YOUR take on restoration versus conservation vs DON’T MESS WITH IT. I have a few high condition leverguns and a couple right off a ranch with the stocks carved with a pocketknife and forends worn concave from saddle horns. Love ‘em all just in different ways. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Would you be able to do another short video on what to spot such as that Colt that tells it's been refinished rather than original? Thank you for doing these videos, love your channel.
Thank you for another very informative video.
Thanks for another great video Mark. I guess in the end, like the adage says "they're only worth what someone will pay you for them." I have an old 92 saddle ring carbine with the flip up elevated sight. It's in .32 wcf, in all original condition and belonged to my uncle. He traded it to my dad for a couple of burial plots that my dad had purchased years ago, with the condition that when my dad passed the rifle would go to the goat roper. That's what my uncle called me. I decided to take the rifle to a gun show to find out it's value. I asked around to find out who the knowledgeable collectors were. When I would approach them the first words out of my mouth were "this gun's not for sale". I would then asked them, "if this rifle was in your personnel collection what would it take for someone to buy it?" I would then reiterate that I was NOT selling this rifle and told them to be brutally honest with their opinion. Out of 5 different men I was given prices that varied from $800 to $1800. So that shows how opinions vary. The rifle is worth a mint to me because it was my uncles and for a short time my dad's. I'm now trying to figure out who I will pass it on to. It will more than likely go back to someone in my uncle's family.
Excellent video. Solid advice. Thanks for sharing it.
Great Video Mark!! So many good points here.
Great video! Thanks for educating me again
Great video I wish I'd have seen a thousand purchases ago. Takes a while to figure out just what kind of collector you want to be. Money and circumstances help determine plenty. Couldn't help cringe during the video thinking of my mistakes but happy where I landed. Thanks Mark.
I had to look at the Colt for a second time and I must say for one thing those are very nice Ivory grips. I used to make Ivory grips for various types of pistols and revolvers and checkered and carved them. I'm not going to belabor explaining what happened to this industry but Ivory made very nice grips. I also noticed no calibre designation on the left side of the barrel. The firearm looks similar to the fashion of restoration by Turnbull but they use roll stamps to restore the lost engravings. Thanks Mark for this explanation on old firearms.
Another wonderful video, so informative. Unfortunately for me, I don't own anything of real high value but what I do have is valuable to me. Do you have any videos showing how to maintain the lever guns to help keep them in original shape? Especially keeping the wood and finish in good shape?
Jay Leno once said in a UA-cam video discussing a Chevrolet Corvair, that restorations often were “you spend 10-15,000 on the car, 50-100,000 restoring it, then be lucky to sell it for 25-30,000” guns are often the same way. I think for me the point of restoration is to get as close as you can to how the gun was when it was factory fresh, or to take a gun and make it what you want. Also I will say the value lost or gained by a restoration also depends on who did the restoration. You’re definitely going to pay more for a gun that was restored (and has paperwork and receipts to match) by Turnbull, TylerGunworks, or any of the other high end gunsmiths, than you will pay for a gun restored by Mike at your LGS.
I have a 1895 in 405 made in 1903 according to the 4 digit ser # in about the same condition as yours mine is not checkered but like I say same condition
I would never touch it .Clean it yes or repair but restore no way .I have a few Winchester options on it like the Lyman rear sight and a role over front
same butt pad as yours I have the factory sling studs and sling . Like you I love it and still shoot it with Hard Cast bullets with a light load .
The sick thing is I payed $650.00 Canadian for it with 10 old boxes of Western amo in mint condition .Thank for doing your shows I watch them all .
Thanks Mark For All The Informative Information 😀😊😀
Thanks for another great video. I never get tired of looking at old Winchesters. I’ll gladly buy the refin Colt SAA from y’all. You shouldn’t have that fake in your collection haha
Vintage motorcycles are the same as firearms. I know just enough to get swindled. I saw a 1936 Harley Knucklehead here at Sturgis a few years ago. As I fawned over it, telling it's owner how cool he was and thanking him preserving it. He just smiled and said, " I built it from swap meet parts." He said the.difference is about $50K.
This was a very good video, thank you for sharing.
Very good insights thank you
Thanks Mark another great one. Every Rifle video you do makes me think I should own one of these Winchester Rifles. See ya later.
Well done! I think it's important to remember that most firearms enthusiasts are not collectors merely caretakers of these old guns, I have no plans to sell anything I own, I've made that mistake years ago with guns that are literally impossible to get anymore. instead, I'm hoping to hand these guns down to my grandchildren. my motto for owning any gun is a fairly simple proposition, if it shoots well, I keep it and take great care of it, if it doesn't, down the road it goes. The idea is not a new one, remember when these guns were originally owned, they were basically a tool, and when a better tool came out, they were traded off.
So is the second model 1895 with the pistol grip yours or a customer's ? Those are beautiful and unique high powered lever actions thanks to the genius of JMB.
It will interesting to see what you can possibly do to restore the 1890 Win 22LR.
Great video. I love looking for the misfits out there. The process of bringing them back to their original configuration helps me learn about the history of that particular firearm. It's a shame how many firearms out there are in such poor condition. Well, shameful for the owner and lucky for me.
Been collecting frontier era firearms since the 80's and I'm increasingly befuddled at how much restored/ refinished firearms are selling for now. I see them online daily with asking prices higher than actual original pieces. None of the high-end collectors I know will touch one of them but somebody's buying them apparently. I'm glad to hear you say we're really just the custodians of these historic pieces. I've always felt that way.
I'm shooter grade only collector. If I can't shoot it, then I don't consider it. In my humble opinion, the fun is in it's use, not just in it's admiration.
Very informative.Thank you .
You're very welcome!
I've had a couple SAAs completely refinished by my buddy in Ten Sleep Wyoming. Both had been completely stripped of finish by previous owner to "antique" them. Got a third first generation with him now.
Nice explanation Mark. I am by no means an investment collector. I love the history of the guns and take them for what stories they may have had. I will do repairs when needed. But only functional repairs. I have done some restorations on a couple of guns only because they have been neglected and it was the only way to save them. In those cases I did it for me, as I liked the gun and this was the only way I could own one. Thanks very much for sharing.
I can really appreciate everything you show and teach here. Thank you. Any plans on showing us more winchester shotguns?
That poor old roach of a shotgun, I see hours of TLC required. I’ve lost count on the hours I spent stopping the decay of vintage shooting irons.
I used to hunt with a fellow who had a beautiful Belgan A5 that he treated like I would have a farm shovel. When he laid it in the back of his pickup, and in the mud I used to wonder why he just didn't have a Sears and Roebuck like me?
I'm glad to see that you can get some use out of that 1890 Winchester and looking forward to seeing some footage on your restoration work or conservation work.
Hey Rick. I meant to give you shout out when I talked about that old 1890 and then forgot. Thanks again. I'll try to do better when we fix that one up. That should make a fun episode.
@@thecinnabar8442 yes it will,it might even save some vintage, old but useful gun's from the scrap yard. There's no telling just how many old guns have been thrown away that could have been salvaged and made useful again.
What are your thoughts on guns returned to the factory for rework or modifications?
Bores corroded or worn out but the gun otherwise in good condition. Should the barrel be relined or replaced? Modifications made by famous barrel makers like Pope or Schoyen?
I used to do restorations on old Winchesters and old double barreled shotguns. Usually these were family heirlooms that the family wanted restored to keep. I did slow rust blue, and worked to make the original finish as it was done originally. I never intended these to be passed off as originals, but some were mistaken for originals, but I disclosed they were not. I really hate to see the old guns buffed out to a high polish, flat edges rounded by buffing, lettering diminished, and hot tank blued. To me that is horrendous. LOL
Ah yes, the gunsmithing equivalent of the Earl Shieb $200 automobile paint job. 🙂 Sadly, many really special firearms have been destroyed that way.
THANK YOU SIR
So true I have seen some guns and have passed up also.
Like Mark Novak says; Get in and get out without anyone knowing you were there.
Great video thanks for all the information. I don’t like guns that are made to look brand new. That 95 in .405 WCF is beautiful .
You had me really worried on that 1895 with the long list of potential mutilations, then at the end "but we are not going to do that", I almost spilled my glass of wine! I often wonder what goes through the mind of people that spend many times the value of a firearm on a as new re finish when they come to sell, I see early Colt 1873s with descriptions like "very early number first model, rebuilt with new barrel cylinder and frame" I wonder what happens to the original bits, they are laying in a box somewhere waiting to be used in another expensive early Colt! Stay safe! Chris B.
Haha! I'm glad you recovered and didn't spill any of your fine wine. I would have felt guilty for setting you up for that. :) I'm sure you've seen your fair share of rare and collectable firearms that have been butchered. It sure makes a guy cringe when he comes across them.
Trying to rembember if it was at my first or second job when I got to chattng with a co-worker. His name was Vern Litvin and he and his brother? were on a road trip, with no money... And they stopped at the ZX ranch near Paisly, OR to work for awhile. He told me the mosquitoes were so bad they'd drive about anyone crazy! He had his clothes washed for awhile...and everyone would give him heck but not say why. After a while he learned it was because if you smashed the mosquitos unttil your clothes got crusty the mosquito's couldn't get through it. Doing some math I figure Vern was working there mid-60's. Oh what beautiful country around there but working hard, with all the bugs,... Lakeview 30 miles away...that must have sucked! Hardy people not so long ago!
I agree with you. I'm not a big fan of the high-end Restorations. to me seeing a Colt Single Action Army get most of its parts replaced then brought back to looking brand new. Then be still sold as a perfect numbers matching gun being sold for 10k or more. To me its crazy and to me its lost it's appeal and what made the firearm special.
Great video!! On this subject I wish you would consider doing wells Fargo coach guns. There's a subject that could use a light on it!!!!
Took me a while to warm up to you but you seem to know what you are talking about interesting vids. Not a collector here but own historic firearms that I shoot
One I dont see much of is busted upper tang on post 64 Winchester 94 scentered receivers.
I have a rough condition 1979 with a busted repair.
Rivited brass lap patch.
Excellent topic for a video. Not that I'll ever be in this game, but I always look at some of the things going at one of the and think that they look too good to be true. Please understand that I am not trying to accuse anyone of wrongdoing, just a hypothetical example. But how does something survive for 150 years and still look fairly new. I have a couple of projects around here that I'd love to get running someday, but how far do you really go and is it worth it. Again, excellent video topic Sir!
Other than over paying for those two guns (model 94 and revolver) , I would be proud to own both.
I have a 1899 Bonehill English made side by side with external hammers. I use it for bird hunting as it was intended. Sure its worth about $2500 but I'll never own a firearm I can't use if desired.
Good Video
There are so many scoundrels in the classic car and gun scene. I only trust about five people today. I can remember back in the 1980’s when these scoundrels would brag about ripping off an old woman that didn’t know what she had. Now that these things are so expensive, the average working person can’t enjoy what our grandparents had. There are so my fakes out there, be careful.
I love your channel! You are doing well. I have a SAA shooting channel that was under 1K subs up until jan1. I started doing shorts vids a couple months ago. I got lucky with a short shooting video just after the first of the year and now I'm at 33K subs.Try some short vids. You can quickly make them out of long vids you already have in just a couple minutes with your phone.😃
Thanks so much for the heads up. That's pretty amazing to gain all those views and subs in such a short time. I'll start playing around with those shorts. BTW, I checked out your channel and really enjoyed it. You picked up another new subscriber. 😉
@@thecinnabar8442 Thanks! 😃
My dang Excel 410 wont separate the barrel from the Reciever. Hand guard pops off, it opens up fine, then just wiggles but wont Separate???
Mark, excellent discussion. Value is dictated by collectors. In my case, I had my two oldest firearms restored because I wanted to shoot them and to extend their life. Shooting a safe and operable gun was the first objective. Everyone will make his or her own choice. Perry Pappous
Maybe try out the magnet fishing guys for some projects or parts
I paid a lot for a totally fake Columbus Firearms percussion revolver which came with lots of written "documentation". Shame on me and shame on the seller.
If anything you have helped and not mudding any Waters that I see. That last rifle you showed if it's workable and will shoot I'll buy it it doesn't have to be in excellent condition or collectible condition or all the other words you used. If it will shoot accurate or is accurate as it can I will compensate for that I'll buy it. Is it for sale? Stay vigilant!
I can't count how many times I've heard dealers or collectors say that such and such gun, that looks original and well preserved to me, has in fact been refinished, as you did just now with that Colt. Nobody ever takes the rime to educate exactly what to look for to detect a firearm that has been expertly redone for the purpose of deception. So I ask, EXACTLY how do you know that Colt is not "original"? Could you take that Colt and show IN DETAIL how you discovered it was refinished? Thanks.
What are your thoughts on a factory refinish? This is not an uncommon practice with say blued S&W revolvers for example. How would this effect value in your opinion?
A factory refinish will have a modest impact on the value of a firearm with serious collectors, if they can be assured that it was indeed refinished at the factory. A firearm refinished outside the factory will have a much more dramatic impact on value. The more amateur the job, the greater the impact on collector value.
@@thecinnabar8442 thanks for the insight. Stainless steel hasn’t been used in firearms until relatively recently but some of these stainless firearms are becoming collectible. What are your thoughts on refurbishing a stainless finish? Would you consider polishing out scratches on a stainless finish akin to removing rust from a blued finish with steel/brass wool or a copper penny? Or would altering a stainless finish in any way diminish the value?
And let’s be honest, Ruger’s stainless finish especially, and to a lesser extent S&W’s is what I’d call utilitarian. Plenty of scratches if you look close even when they’re brand new.
I have caustic and rust blued some of my guns but I was wondering if there is any way to replicate Carbonia Blue?
Unfortunately, the original carbonia bluing methods have been lost to the ages. I think Turnbull has a process he uses to try to replicate the look, but he's not likely to share his recipe. I think the closest process that's realistic for the average person would be the charcoal bluing process. It produces a beautiful finish, but I don't like the repeated heating and cooling cycles on the metal.
🙏🤘🏼♥️💪🏼🤟🏽♥️
They were new only once.
Similar to buying an old vehicle and you didn't catch all that Bondo under the paint!
Yes, very similar. Good analogy
@@thecinnabar8442 thanks for another great video!
🙂☕👍
So, buyer beware.
They are only original once
If i wanted something shiny and new i will buy a replica
Another great video as usual. I've never understood why someone would want to take a firearm with honest wear and try to make it look new. Damage from rust or abuse is another matter, of course. I am not likely to be taken in by a faked high "original condition" firearm because I like to shoot my guns, not just look at them. That is the beauty of original condition "shooter grade" guns. You can use them as intended, and if taken care of, you will never know the difference. As far as I am concerned, "shooter grade" is a firearm's highest calling. The character they have from years of use makes them interesting to look at, too, way more than a new looking gun. Works out in my favor pretty well, since they cost less and I am cheap. But even shooter grade guns in the stuff I am interested in is getting up there.
"INTERESTING"
You know Mark I'm 65 going on 66 and I sure do wish that all of those old 1886 Winchester rifles that my Dad and I would look at in the late 60's and early 70's for $300 bucks were in a gun safe at my house .
Great video and I've run across many fakes in my gun trading. Some I could see right away others not until it was too late.