Це відео не доступне.
Перепрошуємо.
How many PSI to blow out PEX?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 19 сер 2024
- We found out last week that PEX fittings are pretty stout, but how many PSI exactly till the PEX walls fail? And how much pressure will a Sharkbite PTC fitting take before it blows off? Let’s find out on today’s new Build Show.
The Build Show with Jordan Smith - / jordansmithbuilds
Huge thanks to our Show sponsors USG/Tremco, Polywall, Huber, Dorken Delta, Prosoco, Rockwool & Endura for helping to make these videos possible! These are all trusted companies that Matt has worked with for years and trusts their products in the homes he builds.
www.Securockexo...
www.Dorken.com
www.Poly-Wall.com
www.Huberwood.com
www.Prosoco.com
www.Rockwool.com
www.EnduraProdu...
![Дон ДОН, Алаудинов и СБЕЖАВШИЕ из под Курска ахматовцы 😁 [Пародия]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dEfCf5IK26Q/mqdefault.jpg)
This certainly supports my position that PEX is the best piping for shop compressed air.
(A plumber I know uses it for all his air lines, since it is more than adequate for pressure, doesn't rust or corrode, and never flakes like galvanized AND copper can do.)
All of them well over a 4:1 safety factor which is a good thing.
As a licensed Professional Engineer, let me say that the failure mode will be fatigue... meaning, how many cycles of pressure spikes can a pipe or joint take? For instance, water hammer will momentarily cause a pressure spike of double or perhaps triple your normal operating pressure. So even on a well pump system, you could see repeated spikes of 200 psi or more. After several thousand such spikes, you could easily see a leak - even though the pressure never reaches half or a quarter of the burst pressure.
The other thing to consider is the combined affect of chemicals (chlorine), pH and time. All of this means that leaks can and will cause plumbing to fail well before ever reaching burst pressures for a brand-new pipe.
as an engineering intern I would mention these are creep failures, these materials have a creep nature to them, like aluminum, they are under pressure constantly.the spikes you are talking about are not very high in a pex palsitc strechy pipe.
Yeah but those failure modes are even more likely in copper (fatigue, corrosion)??
So I've been using 1/2" PEX pipe in my home garage for an air distribution line going on 11 or 12 years now. I use three ear wing backs with bushings for the air chuck take offs and I use PEX 90s and tees wherever necessary. A few PEX ball valves to isolate zones and to blow out any moisture from the end of the lines. I've been told by a few people that it's dangerous because of the high pressures. My compressor cuts out at a tank pressure of 125 psi but the regulated pressure is 100 psi. My PEX is rated at 160 psi at room temperature, we now have data that suggests that even the poorest connection type is good for over 500 psi and better connections and pipes are good for maybe 750 psi. Some dedicated air line system are listed for up to 220 psi. Let's just cut the sh.t! Pex tubing is more than ok for air lines with what appears to be a 4x to 4.5x safety factor built in. All of the items are readily accessible at any home center and are cheap. I understand there are regulations and governing bodies who tests and validate these items but it is possible to perform high quality and safe work by ignoring the labels.
Nice. And I'm sure Jordan preferred bursting pipes in the hydro test rather than the hydraulic. That last one was an oily mess. A few comments ask about testing in temperature extremes. I'm in the Phx area. It would be interesting to see how the Pex pipe does under pressure in a simulated 150 degree attic. I'm picturing a cheap electric Kenmore range with 1-inch holes drilled through each side and the pipe running through it. Get on it, Matt! :)
What pray tell is the difference between the hydro test and the hydraulic test? Psi is psi
Very useful test, Matt. Here's another variation of the test that would be useful for those of us in hot weather climates where builders like to run Pex in attics:
Test the three versions of Pex with extreme pressures a home might see, say 150psi to cover worst case scenario. Then apply 200 degree F to the pipe to see how it reacts. My guess based on your pressure tests is that Pex A would likely fail first. However, I also believe (w/o evidence) it may outlast the others in longevity since it may remain more pliable over time. Pex B & C just appear to have a composition that could become more brittle over time (like PVC). Again, just guess and testing longevity isn't easy. But the heat test under pressure would be useful to many of us. Thanks for educating (and entertaining) all of us.
Can't wait to see the pressure that copper can handle. I hope you are going to test various schedules and types, including a soldered connection as well.
I would also like to see how kinked pex and kinked and heat fixed pex test. I wonder if they are different, weakened? Cpvc tests?
Thanks for this test, guys. It's really reassuring.
This was a good benchmarking exercise of the fittings.
My suggestion: Find a steel or some other metal pipe that fits snug over the plastic/PEX/whatever. Even cut a pipe in 1/2, lengthwise, and use multiple hose clamps, to prevent the hose from rupturing. Keep the hose length shorter so you could just use however many hose clamps, each touching the previous and the next. This will FORCE the rupture to occur at the connection device rather than the hose. I'm curious what kind of pressure the connections can withstand. Great show! Just keep the hose lengths all the same. Use a hose clamp on the plug at the top.
Also, you could look for a gauge that has a second needle that will be pushed up by the main needle, but doesn't come back down until it's manually re-zeroed.
Keep up the good work!!!
Or, a digital gauge, way more accurate and with built in max pressure display
From the perspective from a materials scientist, you guys did a good job proving the point that correctly installed PEX is unlikely to burst under normal residential water pressures. But as you know so much better than I, the real question is what would the results be 30, 40 and even 50 years from now? As long as they are not exposed to any adverse conditions, there should be no reason these pipes would fail under normal pressures. But the burst strengths are not likely to be the 100x normal pressure that you get when everything is new (of course, that's why these things are manufactured with such high specs).
The house I'm living in / slowly flipping has been fully redone with Uponor. I'm hoping it provides the next owner with at least a few trouble free decades. Regardless, anything is better than the mess that was here before!
@@TheMigraineGuy the thing with palstic, when it goes, it bursts, but copper when it degrades, it just leaks with small pin holes lol
@@randomrazr I mostly agree, except if copper freezes it'll burst. PEX on the other hand can stretch. The biggest issue on my current home was not needing to rip open every wall to solder joints. With the Uponor, I was able to run a single tube from the basement to the second floor. The various bends, angles, etc. were no problem and the expander fittings are damned impressive. But, there is no perfect building material - it'll all fail one day!
I'd like to see repeated transient pressure spikes, of a lower pressure level, and see how they handle that
30 year master plumber here... just to say " ok, that was pretty cool ".
Now try to blow off a solder joint. You won't budge a brazed joint. Not if it's brazed correctly. Brazing makes the two metal surfaces like one but solder joints can be peeled easily with a smack after cutting a fitting in half. I'm wanting to say the solder joints friction to hold a fitting socket together can be overcome before the wall strength of copper is.
At the same time - see how long copper pipes will last with water hammer.
Very interesting and obviously fun video Matt. You and Jordan work well together thank you.
Matt, pretty interesting in your experiment. I talked with Viega yesterday as I plan on using their manabloc. Their tech support said not to go higher then 100psi, as they do not guarantee it. So seeing your high pressure tests makes one feel good about how tough it really is.
Blowing out the new yr. Looking forward to new products being tested out on the field Matt
Great video and test. Based on what I saw: 1) do NOT use these fittings in finished walls. Similar to where to apply electrical connectons. Not very practicle if you plan to run PEX. 2) Use Water Hammer preventers where you have electrical valving. 3) theTPR valve in the water heater should stop pressure loads over 150psi (not hammer).
Lmfao wrong
Really great test! As said, Although the pressures are way above a normal use. It's useful to know how far from failure these products are actually. Look forward to the next subjects!
Definitely would like to see CPVC next!
Love the test. Seems like you really can't go wrong with any type of PEX.
When you guys do copper make sure you get a good plumber to do the soldering. I'm a gc and I have done my own copper many times in repairs and whatever. I recently hung out a union plumber. He had a bunch of connections he had cut out to cut in half to make sure the solder had completely filled the fitting. Long story short he was way better than me! Mine work at home pressures but this guy took it to a totally new level!
You guys are just having fun, but this is good info.
Wish you would have had a copper as a control. Great episode.
If you want to do more tests you could kink a section and then unkink to see what effect that has on the pex strength.
It is recommended to silicone wrap the sharkbite quick connect,with sharkbite silicone wrap which wasn't done..
Sharkbite is not a Type B PEX but a PERT Pex. PERT is the newest pex on the market and Legend has a 100 year warranty and made in Michigan. P E R T is KING.
Good test setup, much better than the first go around. There's a lot more you can test with this setup, as others have suggested.
but what pressure will it hold with hot water? I know a house where the hot water on demand malfunction and it blew the pex pipe. so did the pipe blow before the safety valve open to blew off excess pressure. if so at what temperature and pressure was the water.
This would be a very relevant test. Great suggestion. I am in the plumbing sales industry and would love to be able to give solid advice as to what pressure the pipes could potentially fail other than what is marked on the pipe itself. For example: if pex b is rated for 180 psi at 70°f (just a random number, not exactly) what psi would it fail at say 200°f?
Guys could you test two grades of copper, can’t wait to see it as that’s the reference, love the show from Northern Ireland
Like to see new and several old out in the field samples of CPVC tested to put the rumors to rest.
@@808kiker Me too but I tested it, tried to crush under a wrench and it seems like new, not brittle. Perhaps it was a certain make and not all types of CPVC and it's limited hopefully.
Just like PEX, nearly all variations of Vinyl also become brittle with UV exposure. Chlorine will also degrade both eventually, but at the concentrations in city water, it would likely take a long long time. As long as your plastic piping isn't exposed to sunlight or florescent bulbs (direct or indirect, aka: it should be in a wall), you will probably be fine.
do you seriously tighten fittings up with vice grips??? As a plumber this bothers me. Also, pex a and pex b have different properties that you failed to mention. The way i see it, they have two different uses. All in all great educational video you guys. We use primarily pex b where im from, and alot of PLASTIC fittings. I have seen several of those fittings fail. Can you test those, as all your connectors were strictly brass?
Oh no, Vice grips. 😂
I'd love to see you guys find the burst pressure for a frost free valve!
Okay fellows you guys are having too much fun, would there be any openings with the Risinger/ Smith home R & D team. And where do I send my resume, awesome info I gathered with this one again thanks for taking the time to share it with us.
From Elliot Lake Ontario Canada.
I'd like to see the NIBCO in your test ... we use it throughout our campground and marina as it at one time was the only pex rated for both above and below ground as well as direct UV exposure ... this marks our 15th year running NIBCO in our operation with minimal failure including high heat exposure from a boat fire and routinely subjected to freezing temps
All of the pipes start to deforming after 750psi. Good video guys.
Now do Copper and PVC
Yes do copper
LOL need a different gauge likely would burst before it registers on the gauge
David Bird PVC doesn't like the cold. We ran it into our workshop to give us water to the sink two year ago. The water froze and the PVC split into slivers. Don't have any experience with copper.
@@eyesalooking I threw an large but empty box on a PVC drain tube for my ac unit in the attic. It was cold so the thing snapped. I threw some duct tape on it but will change it out with pex when it warms up. not sure if that is against some sort of code, don't car. PVC is horrible,
IN EU is NO NO NO... copper for drinking water.Just heating
Awesome test...thanks!
"Wooahh we got a blowout, Oh baby we gotta blow out, yeah we got a blow out...look at that blow out" LOL Its like a swingers party
hey matt can you repeat this test and somehow do it with 160 degree water? Since pex bursting pressure reduces with heat, would be nice to see what the actual bursting pressure is at say 120, 140, and 160 degrees.
Great video, thanks!
I'd be curious if temperature changes the pressure they can take. Especially for the Uponor. Hot, say ~120F to simulate extremely hot environments. On the other side, what happens if the pipes freeze under pressure.
Also can we do stress tests on these type of fittings? Rig up something to flex the pipe and connection over and over to simulate a long term expansion and contraction? Something along those lines. Or put it in a repeated heat cool cycle that lasts a few minutes for a week or two. and get a few thousand cycles in?
If you wrap the pipes with masking tape and draw some lines on the tape, you can see when the pipe expands as the tape will tear.
I wonder if the pex had a fine woven metal mesh in the plastic if it would allow more pressure. I'm thinking the mesh would slow down the bulging which thins the plastic walls allowing it to handle better under pressure.
This flexible water line is not pipe, it is tubing. Glued fittings on pvc pipe fail at glue joint and the temperature is a factor. Almost everything is tested at 70 degrees. Above or below changes everything.
Pressure drops on these tests are the tubing expanding which drops the pressure significantly and quickly.
If you are peaking the lower pressure gauge and then not taking it out of the circuit you are damaging it if you exceed the maximum pressure on the face of the gauge you have significantly damaged the gauge.
Tensile strength is ultimate pressure, you mean yield pressure.
Tensile strength is the ultimate strength where it fails. You are referring to yield strength where it starts to move or the wall thickness thins because the tubing is expanding.
You are a blast at parties I'm sure.
Brandon Masser . LOL. I am in the business of pipe, tube, hose and fittings. Most of it deals with hydraulic oil but some with water. There is a lot to know if not 100 things, 10,000 things. I have done pressure testing in the past up to 15,000 PSI. It’s an interesting field.
Most hydraulic hose would be tested at twice it’s working pressure and would fail at over four times working pressure. So a 5000 psi hydraulic hose would fail at over 20,000 PSI.
So if you wanted a static test of a 5000 psi hose I would test it at 10,000 PSI. Fairly remarkable for a simple hydraulic hose on a machine.
I agree with the pressure drop is the tubing expanding but that's assuming the check valve in the pump is not leaking!!
@@ThePvcralph so would like to see cycling of the high pressure and how many times it can cycle without issues
I'd be curious to see if 1) temperature affects this if the pipes are chilled/ almost frozen if that will strengthen the plastic, and 2) if the change in pressure in terms of time affects the strength of the pipe, seems like the first two pipes were held at a certain pressure and this "weakened" the pipe walls and by the time it got up 750 they were already weakened. I'd be curious if all of the pipes can consistently hold a pressure right before they ruptured.
Nice follow up!
Yes on the copper fail test
Id love to.see you guys test these with hot water to see whether PEX-Al-PEX is needed for your higher temp coils in floors etc.
How quickly could you guys pneumatic testing experiment? Very interesting
What was the ambient temperature?
I’m curious the Delta when the water is 130* or 180*.?
I’d like to see the test on the kinked and heat reformed section of pex A to see if there is a weakness that would be exploited.
so, bottom line is that the sharkbite PTC's are fine for normal usage, right?
Not if you want plumbers to hate you
plumbers think mutilating joists is an okay thing to do.
Aidan Skoyle
@@James-lo5ne a hole here, a notch there, no problem ;)
If you're using it on copper pipe and you have water hammering in your lines it can get driven off.
You shouldn't bury sharkbite in walls or in the ground.
I wonder what the plastic connectors and lines will be like 50 years from now, well within the life span of copper.
Pex has been around in Europe since the 60s so you could probably check.
do a burst test using zurn pex b with Uponor expansion fitting and ring.
Hey Matt, while you're into it could yall check the old school stuff we are all used too like copper, pvc, black coil pipe, ect..Also if there is any way to check the effects of an overheating water heater on pex. Awesome vid .. Many wonder about these things..
Good video about pex. I would love to see how push to connect (shark) handles water hammer. In other applications we use it with flexible air hoses that whip around with pressure changes no problem. How would that work in my house on copper pipe with water hammer? O ring gaskets in other products are prone to slipping and failing whenever the rigid pipe moves.
Thank you for continuing these tube tests.. How about CPVC with glued joints??
I would be interested in seeing the performance of the PEX tubes that have been bent or squashed. All this stuff is going to perform fine out of the box but I'm more concerned about how it does when somebody steps on it during installation or puts a kink into it while running it through a wall bend. In particular, I'd love to see how much strength PEX-B loses.
Once pex b is kinked its trash from what I understand
I love pex 1000 psi is insane
Great second test guy! Looks like all pex connections and both pex types are more than capable for handling real life situations. Now it's just a matter of proper installation and how these systems age over time. I still think Uponor leaves the least to worry about due to no risk of rusting and the nature of the connection leaves less risk of improper connection. I did notice a small amount of water leaking from the Viega connection before it actually started showing swelling in the pipe. (It was still at a high pressure) Hats off to the Sharkbite connection for being the only 1000+ contender.
Much better test! Could you scratch and kink the pipe. Maybe leave it in the sun a few days and see if it affects it!
Great video, can't wait to see the copper one! :D
Great testing. I would love to see what the testing results are compared to installation reviews (elbows needed??) to cost of specialty equipment needed to install.
Much better testing with the water, and smaller ranges on the gauges.
You guys are having too much fun.
Interesting. If you feel like trying another experiment - I would love to know which type of pipe (CPVC, PEX copper) holds heat best in long runs of hot water pipe. I suspect but don't know for sure, that the plastic pipes will perform much better.
It would be interesting to do the same test with 180 degree Fahrenheit water, also using a load cell on a piston to measure pressure would be more reliable.
Good so far ... but I’m on the other end of the continent, in Fairbanks Alaska. If we lose heat in just one area it can be a disaster. It’s about -5F at the house but about -25F in town which is 700 feet lower elevation (warmer air rises, cold air falls to the valley bottoms).
So my concern would be how do the different PEX brands work when their below freezing? I saw the fitting test in the cold box, how about the same for the different PEX brands/styles for us northerners?
You do know that the hole PEX invention comes from Sweden/Finland? It can take freezing amazingly well.
Parents house was built in 94 and the shower was installed on a outside wall. Stupid thing always freezes every winter due to plumber saying it will work just fine, was even planned on a other wall but he thought it looked stupid. You know there's that first cold rush when there is almost no snow, as soon as it's snowed they shovel snow on the wall to help. It's installed to far out in the concrete also so extra insulation don't help, need to widen the house foot also then or hammer out the floor and move the pipes.
And Still to this day it has not started to leak.
I keep having a problem with my pex valves blowing out. My water pressure is 50lbs. It blows out the rear plug. I bought a new manifold and it came with all new valves. I did not have a problem for 4 years but I have blown out 2 in the last 2 weeks.
I would like to see how a push fitting does on copper tubing, teeth might hold better
nathan lavoie I would think the opposite. The harder pipe the less likely the teeth are going to be able to “Dig in”. I have seen several push fittings blow off on Water services( before the meter ) here. I’m wondering if it’s the water hammer effect blowing them off. The water utility I work for doesn’t allow for any connections other than copper flare or Ford or McDonald Brand Brass pack joint connections. When a contractor hits a service and doesn’t want to report the damage to avoid getting a bill they scramble to fix it with push on fittings and we always end up showing up that night or the next day cause their fittings can’t handle it and this is on copper pipe. They will jump in a piece of PEX pipe. I find them always blown off the copper pipe not the PEX.
@@MARKE911 what's the main pressure though? Is the meter not ALSO a pressure regulator or have one next to it?
Check out the freeze test he did of copper vs pex vs cpvc. The shark bite push to connect fitting popped off on the coper and the teeth didn't really dig in. On pex and cpvc it stayed on. The teeth were actually able to dig in properly on those 2.
nathan lavoie , before I installed sixteen Sharkbite push-on shut-off valves in my house, I consulted with a plumber. He told me he has not had any failures so far, but did not recommend using push-on fittings inside walls. I tried to remove one without using the release tool and could not do it. I have copper pipes. The Sharkbite valves replaced sixteen compression fit valves. I saved a thousand dollars changing the valves myself.
I remember a study I read in a plumbing trade back a while that it blew above 2000(I think) the sweat was best, and press was worst, but still way over 1000
Wonder what's the barking point on old brass fittings versus the new plastic ones !!!!
Promises of a second make with pressure readings. It’s been a year, would love to see the data.
Pex is superior to everything when you factor in expansion also. Shark bite push fitting will fail at around 500 psi the average house is between 30-80 psi
What’s the average pressure a well puts out for PEX on my home. I didn’t realize PEX could burst. Copper sucks in the winter. Thank you
OMG! Guys! Stop testing like this!!!!! To fine out what kind of connection will fail, you need to do a few things!!!
1st put a check valve on it, so you don't have it leaking back into the pump! 2nd! Make the pipe either really short, that you basically have the 2 fitting touching each other so the pipe isn't the weak point. OR.... SLEEVE the pipes! Like put a copper pipe over the pex pipe so it can't expand and then the press will go to the fitting connections! Also put a cover /lid over the pipes, so it doesn't shoot off like a rocket! You need to stop it from going up in the air like that, because it can go really high and come back down and hit a car, person, house or a pet!
And finally, do the test with HOT water as well! Oh and why not try to pump up a copper pipe as well? Then you can see the difference between the two! And i saw your 1st video on doing this with hydraulic fluid, man that was a total Sh¡t show.... so when you actually do this, you will heroes to everyone who is a plumber, thanks!
I hate pecs worst thing ever ,i got screwd by contrator that put pecs in my new home,,hired by precision estamators a public adjuster co. Took outmy copper pies n put pecs crap thay took mysupply main4 water ,i had a inch line or at least 3/4 thay made it like ,3/8inch omg nopressure, in home now, people dont let these contractors screw u, never use pecs,i have 2get a reputable plumber now and redo entire plumbing in house, oh yea all old copper misteriousy disapperd. Humph,guess plumber used it in his house, oh yeA new heat sys.is settin off co detectors ,guess da town of crookhaven insptors. Got pd.off 2 pass the crap jobsdone,butnow housewont pass final insp.say main floorbeam ng.contractor cannotb found, ie.dont let presion adjusters screw u 2 there in manorville ny.
What about a crimp style pex a like heatlink? Though the fitting style apparently doesn’t matter. It’s odd considering you film out of a certain Austin plumbing supply that carries it as their main pex a
The thing with air is cycles-what effect does cycles either air or water have on PEX?
Repeated spikes in pressure-even in teh 100psi range, spikes from 20-100 and back 10-20 times/hour or day?
can you recreate this with PEX that's been left exposed to UV for a year, demonstrating materials that have been dragged from site to site or left in a truck for an extended period of time or even from elongated distribution channels...
CPVC next! Then 2 inch PVC used on pools! (Not DWV)
Would've liked to have seen you add a copper setup to the test, to see how it compares to the PEX.
Any correlation between pressure and freezing?
I think that would only matter if the freezing occurred around a fitting. The fittings are the weakest part
That's what I thought but, I am far from an expert. All I know how to do is roof so, plumbing has always been confusing to me. 😂🤣😂🤣
I'd like to know as well.
@@apex007
I can't address pressure, but freezing SPLITS the pipe, fittings okay. And that's with low temperature solder. That makes me THINK the copper pipe would fail before the fittings do. Keep in mind this was the thin wall copper, generally used in water supply lines. Type L might be a different story. (caveat, I'm not a plumber either, just a witness to the effects of freezes)
Look at their freeze test... Pex was just fine fully frozen. Copper? No.
could you try with hot water and copper connectors
So if I use shark bite and pex for an air compressor system AFTER 25' of compressor tubing, just to have a small section to collect condensed water before the air filter, then that should work fine?
Can you test Pex with freezing water under pressures??? To see what the UPONOR (A) and Pex B will bust at since Uponor flexs and Pex B doesn't flexs as much.
Jason Welsh They have done that test. It is here on UA-cam. If you subscribe you should be able to find it.
Always cool vids, these compare tests are my favorite. Matt question about the Zip R-Sheathing on other videos. Can you install the R3-12 Zip over existing sheathing in zone 5 New England? Thinking of residing my raised ranch, would zip R3 for example, be acceptable to put over the existing OSB once I take the siding off?
another worthwhile test may be to put a sharkbite end cap on rigid copper
@3:30 that's what she said
Safely, what is the maximum one can set the water pressure using Shark Bite?
I'd be very interested to see what the SharkBite EvoPEX would do?
But what pressure does a frozen pipe actually reach? Maybe test a few sizes and lengths. Fill vertical pipe with water and top off the last bit with an oil that wont freeze, and a gauge on top.
I could be wrong, but I thought I remember seeing over 1000 psi for freezing water.
I would recommend having some safety for the team doing the test. Having this much pressure just a few steps away, I would want to have some kind of shield in case of this missile flyes my way. I'm glad no one was hurt, but please do it safer next time. Great channel, I really appreciate your team's videos.
Or different size pex. Curious if 3/4 would fair better
I was really looking forward to that copper pipe pressure test. What happened?
Why would you think sharkbite would fail @ 120-150psi when it has a maximum working pressure of 200psi ?
So, will this work for outside irrigation Line Feed at pressures over 200 PSI?
I don’t know why but this is really fascinating, I’ve used pex to build a plumbing system for an rv, the pump runs the system up to about 50-65 psi, no problems at all, I’m using the stainless steel crimp fittings, what is your opinion on those fittings?
What about testing CPVC and PVC?
I would love to see copper propress and cpvc test
With as much expansion as those pipes underwent before failure, it would seem impossible for them to burst from freezing, do you have any information on that?
Try plastic firing vs bronce
Everybody keeps talking about testing copper... I want them to test galvanized lol