What DESTROYS A WoW Guild?
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- Опубліковано 11 жов 2024
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A guild starts dying when ranks like officer becomes a "seal of friendship" more than a position with responsibilities and power.
facts my friends are officers and i gear my friends first is ass esp if they are average but even if they are skilled
Cliques are inevitably the death of any guild. "Core" players who always hang out in voice chat get promoted sooner and get more favouritism, it's not even a concious decision most of the time, just instinct, pure human nature. If the guild uses Loot Council then they will invariably prioritise the "core" members over anyone else. If the guild is hosting trials to fill in missing gaps, they are more than likely treated like disposable NPC's. When a new member wants to be social in guild chat they are met with silence or at the most half-hearted replies, but when a "core" member logs in they are met with "Hey X!" from the other "core" members, which just leads to resentment and discouragement from the new guys. It's a social wall that is incredibly hard to breach and nine times out of ten is simply not worth it. Ironically its more efficient to start your own guild and form your own "core" than to try and become the "core" of an already established guild.
Exactly. It's a sign the guild has a clique problem. I think Cata had the worst problem with cliques because of the guild leveling system. The elites wanted a bunch of peasants to help them level the guild, but they didn't want to socialize with them.
The right officer will boost a guild, the wrong one will tear it apart. Should always be a soulless process picking one because your stamp of approval as a GL should be on them before they reach those positions.
@@RainyeC23 The ideal officer is someone who is both "one of the boys" and at the same time is respected by said boys. The GM/RL can afford to be aloof and "larger than life" by the non-officers if the officers are there to speak for them.
Officers should prioritise the non-officers over the other officers, they are sargeants not captains.
Yet this ideal is never realised, the second a person gets promoted it goes to their head, and they want to keep that power at any cost, and that usually means sucking up to the other officers. They become the snobby elite, who view the casual raiders/trials as disposable.
All it takes to kill a guild is one bad raid night
Or a cheating spouse
If you have too few good sports in there for sure, but that's a problem that cultivated before that bad raid night.
While my CE guild has to look at individual performance in logs while recruiting, just having good vibes from that person comes as a close 2nd priority, progress-minded and tiltproof mentality are just as important as player skill.
If a guild is dying over a bad raid night, that wasn't a guild anyway. Pugs die over a bad raid night; not guilds.
@@NovusGMthat’s not true! My guild was progressing in ICC back when Wrath was fresh. We were tight and had a great group of people. We’re on our way to getting server first. We had a couple that couldn’t make it that night, so we ended up pugging a couple people. Long story short, the pug mage was messing up on one of the last boss fights pretty bad (I think it was the dragon?). Not listening to call outs, not being where they needed to be, dying a lot, etc. Their failure had this cascading effect on the group where they would mess up, we would try to compensate, and end up dying. We spent two hours on this fight alone. Trash respawned TWICE, so overall the entire raid night went from a cruise to this multi hour slog because this one guy decided to shut his brain off. We ended up losing out on server first clear, a bunch of people got discouraged, guild leader got big mad, and the entire guild collapsed in under a week.
Absolutely one guy can kill a guild. I’ve seen it happen.
Or loot disputes.
Mike, your passion talking about WoW guilds and raiding is absolutely enthralling to listen to.
I don't even play WoW anymore, but I always love listening to stuff like this, especially from Mike
I gotta say that apathy is a silent killer, if your team stops caring it's just over.
"Facts are facts, but perception is reality." Seems relevant here as in many places: often the facts are not what matters, it's about the people's perception
Our Horde Guild wanted to Raid. So Raid Leader found another Guild to join with us who took Raiding waaaaayyyy more seriously than our Guild. Now some input from an expert Guild was always appreciated but this didn't happen... they simply got rid of anyone on the bottom of the DPS meter. So people got fed up of being kicked (by our own Raid leader) - they left the Guild. The environment became so toxic that the Guild simply collapsed as the obsessive raiders left to join the expert Guild. The Guild leaders left.... and now I am the Guild Leader (I renamed the Guild too) - No one is toxic at all.... as there's no one left - LOL. Consequently I never Mythic+ as I have PTSD from all the sh*t that went down. My Alliance Guild is gradually turning it around for me - but it's taken time.
"We should add another raid day that's optional"
Two factors: leadership and communications being key, having both strong traits in place creates a collaborative environment for all to feed into and thrive, just the same with any top performing workforce...
Guilds are like workplace environments. As you mentioned, you don't need to get along with everyone, as long as you can still 'work' with them. Is it nicer to be friends with your 'co-workers' and have relationships where you can go out to the bar on a Saturday night? Sure. But it's not required to achieve good results.
The guilds that try to force that are the ones that fail.
+
In my experience, it usually comes down to people having different goals and standards. No matter the guild or raid size, there is always a spectrum of sweatiness and commitment. Those at the lower end will always frustrate those at the higher end. When those at the higher end start having to enforce things and levy criticism (even if well-intentioned) that's where the dysfunction starts to creep in. The best guilds are clear about their goals and standards and never actually have to enforce anything because they recruit like-minded folks who are already on the same page.
I really think the 20 player requirement for mythic exacerbates the problem immensely. Roster turnover, more personalities to conflict, more likely real life gets in the way, that fucking guy who is always 15 minutes late, that fucking guy who always has to piss 30 minutes into the raid night, that fucking guy who acts like every trinket is BiS, that fucking guy who wants to bring his alt which screws up the MRT notes....@The Daily Preach could have a weekly "that fucking guy in raid" skit that goes on into perpetuity.
Yea raids should be solo so then the problem only comes from yourself.
Imagine being mad that someone has to take a piss while playing a videogame
@@adoudede6443 - Imagine being so selfish to waste 19 other people's time because you can't piss before raid starts -_-
Toxic/High performers promoted to officer killed two of my past guilds. Esp. when toxic/high perf. start talking down to guildies they perceive as beneath them. 💀☣️. Even worse when that behavior is ignored/tolerated by GM/officers. Officers that are high trust/medium performers are the sweet spot. Other issues that harm guilds are cliques. I do miss fat boss guides.
I love listening to preach talk about raiding back then, I miss all the old videos! Long rant ahead about my personal experience as a mid mythic raid leader trying to push my guild to Cutting Edge.
What preach said about the guild all having the same goals is so true. I started my guild at the start of Legion with about 6 of my mates. We met and recruited a lot of people with the attitude of 'we want to play at a high level but talk as much shit as possible'. Everyones goal back then was to grow the guild and push into mythic. We got into mythic by Antorus, cleared up to Imonar, and for BfA we went in with a full 25+ people ready to push.
When we hit our first major wall, which was Zek'voz for some reason, I noticed the cracks forming. Lots of people couldnt be bothered after 50 attempts, the shit talking died down a little bit. Lots of people just wanted bis gear and then called it quits. The vibes were still there and it was a lot of fun, but we werent able to progress too far. Interest waned and we needed some replacements. We went half way through mythic constantly, we hit bosses like Ashvane and Sludgefist, until Aberrus where Echo of Neltharion just killed us. Bosses like that are impossible if you're constantly cycling people in and out. We also picked up some people that others didn't like, and they brought friends and created some different cliques. The vibe of the raid changed a lot.
Everyone had different goals, some for loot, some for progression, some just to hang out with their mates. When the gearing slowed down, we'd lose some interest. Then we'd lose people when the progression slowed down, and suddenly the raid isn't full of your mates, and we'd lose more. The original motto of 'we want to play at a high level but talk as much shit as possible' was almost completely lost. I could've fixed it and cut the raid back to what it used to be, but my personal goal was to get cutting edge.
It's also true that every time I talk to people about why I disbanded the raid team my story is a bit different. There was a myriad of my own personal issues and dramas between so many people and over such a long time. What this video has made clear to me is that in the end, it's entirely due to everyone not having the same goals anymore.
In the case of my guild. My guild essentially bled out of active players, most of them quitting WoW all together. While some not having time anymore, because of obligations or server transfers.
It's me. I am become death, destroyer of guilds.
I come along, and within weeks your guild stops raiding, nobody's online, and it never recovers.
Had a guild die in vanilla when paid server transfers opened and some other guild that was a bit more progressed recruited half our 4pc tanks and a handful of others including the officer that had the guild bank (which was his alt, this was before actual guild bank existed) and took off with all our accumulated frozen runes.
Had a guild die in Cataclysm because all the officers quit WoW to go play Star Wars Galaxies.
Had a guild die in Cataclysm due to loot drama mid raid on mythic flying boat fight.
My very first WoW guild was killed by a Star Wars discussion. It was during vanilla, I don't even remember what was spoiled, but it was something minor and the guild lead just goes "That's it! I'm done with this s***!" and immediately disbanded the entire guild with no warning. A few different officers tried to pick up the pieces but there was no success there.
Title should be “What destroys a guild, period” as ive seen this in multiple places.
I've actually had the "negative" guild ending post happen before.
I joined a guild that was, from what I was told, made up of world first Rift: Planes of Telara raiders. For reasons that I cannot remember, they quit that game and came to wow with the intention of raiding but as time went on, more and more of their raiders from the rift quit. Either went back to rift or stopped playing mmo's entirely. So by the time I got there, there were only 7 or 8 of their original group, which was around 30 people or so. So we started raiding Siege of Ogrimmar with the intent of cutting edge, but I began to notice that after a couple weeks, more of their guys stopped showing up and so the gm (who was undoubtedly hurt by this) had to start recruiting more "outsiders".
Suffice to say (to keep things short) we found ourselves wiping on Dark Shaman, which was a farm boss for the guild. For 3 weeks we couldn't get passed it and finally the GM and the one remaining dude from rift said fuck it. They absolutely dumsptered on this poor shadow priest (albeit their raid performance was terrible) and another player I cannot remember. I waited there to see if I was gonna get cussed out to but I got the "nah dude you're cool" lol. I mean they absolutely ripped the place to shreds and held nothing back.
I can only assume, going from the death and taxes equivalent in their previous game to struggling to get decent players in the new one must of drove them nuts.
Although this likely won't help jog your memory I do wonder if the Infernal Dawn world first raid drama caused them to quit. A few people in my old guild in Rift at the time, even though we were no where near world first (likely 10-15th) pretty much noped out of the game because of it.
Had 2 guilds end. First was WotLK, after getting a server first a few players wanted to push for world first, others didn't, and both new guilds struggled to find players.
Second was from WoD to BFA. Started with 40+ raiders but had a few carries and over time raiders just kept leaving as they didn't want to carry (only heroic btw). The only people left at the end were the officers and carries and a lot of casual members.
Man this video has brought back some memories I've not had in a long while.
Being a WoW player since Vanilla I'm not gonna say I've seen it all but damn I've seen a lot. From nepotistic officers to major ego problems it's really easy for just one person in a role of power to splinter a guild apart, many not realising that being an officer is a responsibility instead of a power badge to show off.
At the same time though I've been in guilds where everyone was fucking amazing, but what ended up killing it was apathy and burnout, perhaps from real life shit weighing folks down to the point where they can't play anymore, or the game itself being so lacking in what people want (looking at you WoD and Shadowlands...) that folks feel no choice but to move on to other games.
It would be far too easy for me to mention other ways I've seen guilds collapse but I can happily just mirror what other folks have said here, every guild is gonna face hardship and while that can make a guild as tough as a diamond, it can also shatter them like glass. And yet in spite of the sad memories of guilds I have long left behind, I'd happily do it all again for the good times each one brought to my life.
This is why I personally, not everyone is like this but, I tell my guild to have fun! Play what you want. I don't care if you're meta or parse in the gray. We WILL hit aotc eventually but let's drink on a Friday night with friends. Chill atmosphere and fun times by all. That works for us and we still kill bosses and get loot.
I feel like if there are try hard people who try to suck the fun out of the room with logs or pointing fingers. Maybe this isn't the raid for you man. N some times it isn't but I think fun is very much undervalued in these areas. =)
thanks for showing off those sheets. I already rack my brain poring over spreadsheets and Google docs and meeting notes all day at work. I didn’t realize until now that I have no desire to spend a bunch of time studying before I can game after work. I’ve just been torturing myself because I want to be a raider, not because I like raiding.
In my 30-ish years of experience in MMOs (back to Ultima Online), I've noticed that the #1 guild killer is when the guild leader and the #1 officer are husband and wife. Just save yourselves the trouble and get out of there.
Interesting. My wife & I have lead a guild for a LONG time... LONG time. Even when the guild has taken small breaks, we have made numerous friends who always remain a part of the community and comment that the guild was awesome and express surprise that it was how it was with us both running the guild. I'm curious what your experience has been?
I've been raid leading, usually a highly competitive DPS or a tank. My wife is typically our #1 DPS in mythic prog (near CE level, occasionally achieving CE level). I've always put officers around me who are outside of our close friend group to ensure we are not favoring everyone, and our loot councils included 3 non-officers and only 2 officers (to guide the vision / rules). I've also sat friends, and even at one point myself for under performance.
I'm curious, since I've lead my guild since Everquest until Now and been very successful, so I haven't joined others to see your experience, what your experience was that lead to this comment.
@@nethri1 usually the dinamic I had the displeasure to experience is couple is made of either 1 good 1bad/insane or both insane.
Bad/insane person is perma involved because of obvious reasons and you cannot bring up the bad performance because no sane person would go against their insane significant other for mmo. stuff so it's either talking to a wall or actively punching yourself if you speak out.
This creates a climate of stress and frustration which leads to disbands unless you have a gigachad with hostage negotiations level diplomacy that can come down and mediate
Stagnation.
In modern WOW there is less and less to do and those few things you can do are hyper streamlined and compartmentalized that a guild just slows you down, unless its something like mythic raiding which requires co-ordination and competency.
Every day I log into EVE or OSRS, there is always someone doing something, raids, roams, PVP, ect, and unlike WOW there aren't limited slots, you bring as many friends as you can. With WOW you log in, do your dailies, log out, unless its raid night or vault reset.
But Mythic Raiding in WOW or High M+ is so niche, with limited slots (20 for raids, 5 for M+) that your guild is sitting on a razor's edge that if someone quits or wants to play with another friend, your group falls apart or struggles to fill in slots with new people.
WOW also in general struggles with new player retention, and without new blood to replace the old, you will struggle to maintain a cohesive group.
At first guess, I'd say drama is what destroys a WoW guild.
With you in DarK Light on balnazzar back in the day, this was very much the case. I was Goeres/Grundig
Back in '07 during BC expansion. My 4 player guild fell apart because one member thought one of the other ones was using a hack to always win the loot rolls.
I'm currently going through the death of my FC on 14. Been in the same fc since a realm reborn and its sad to know that this team is over.
I watched a big fall out between officers and GM kill friendships and a guild, just because some had an in group and didn't really help guild raiders and potential future raiders in m+, shame because we were a really tight guild.
Not WoW, but what killed my FFXI Dynamis linkshell was me going to graduate school.
I've been playing MMOs for almost 20 years and from my experience its been a mix of death of a thousand cuts and at least 1 poisonous one guy. From what I've seen usually a guild can handle a lot of dumb little things and problems with a game for an extended period of time but the moment the well is poisoned it creates a chain reaction.
For my old guild it was much less dramatic. It was just a combination of burnout, apathy and real life taking priority. There was no huge break up, we just slowly fizzled out until I realized I was the only one still logging on.
Top1. RL/GM burnout, its rare for a guild to have another person ready to pickup the mantle. Top2. Bad game. Its that simple
my guild death in BFA was definitely death by a thousand cuts. Although, I also know that many people would say it was me. its hard to know that. the guild im in now was one guyed, and the leadership has now rebuilt it, and its amazing.
I have my own stories. Never a first tier guild! Just didn’t realise a guild *could* fold in 24 hours. Real life friends involved, there and then gone with one post. Didn’t understand why for ages afterwards. The best they could have done was hand it over, but no, it was closed. It’s probably one of the most emotional instances in my life, and that’s a little nuts right? A good lesson, but I don’t learn and I will totally make that mistake again and again.
Random mitchell and webb callout, i like it
In my experience when a guild tries to go from casual progression to intense progression raiding can kill a guild. This usually happens when the ones who desire to be top couple hundred in the world get control of the guild or when they all leave. Your raiders need to have an understanding of what the goals are and need to be on the same page. I started in 2009 in Wrath. By the end of the expansion I was clearing ICC on normal, by the end of Cata I was clearing heroic deathwing, same with MoP and Garrosh. WoD hit and my guild combined with another for a Mythic team and when Blackrock Foundry dropped I got benched for lack of dps as a ret pally. It wasn't a skill problem it was bad RNG with weapon drops. Basically we cleared Highmaul on normal really fast, then cleared heroic quick too but I just kept losing the rolls for two handed weapons and we just kept advancing. By the time BRF dropped we started clearing heroic and I just hadn't gotten a weapon upgrade due to only so many dropped and I just kept losing the rolls. When I showed up for the second day of raiding that week and the GM didn't send me an invite and I hopped into our chat and asked why my invite wasn't coming and I was told I was being benched until my dps went up it caused a massive division. My half of the guild who knew my skill level knew it was an item issue not a skill issue but instead of go back to get me a two handed they benched me and told me to pug until I got an upgrade. Nobody raided that night because half the team refused to. My core group that I had been with for years at that point all left the guild and formed our own team. The funny part was we were consistently downing bosses before the players that were left in the other guild who were okay with benching people.
Love hearing all your old guildie stories
It’s like a spiral: people don’t put in the effort to keep progress good (because it has no immediate consequences) so burnout and dissatisfaction set in… which in turn cause lack of effort
My guild in WoW died from a little thing called rules for thee but not for me.
Feel like eventually, the people that made the guild quit and it gets handed to someone that it shouldn't be handed down to, and it all slowly breaks appart.
Honestly even being a guild officer for a couple tiers was pretty bad, I have to imagine being a GM or RL would be even worse. Every week was like "there is so much more drama and conflict here than I realized, and that would be kind of interesting except everyone is hell bent on making it my problem."
I wish this was more of a list or talking about what kills a guild
So I just recently started wow this week. And the first guild I joined they asked for donations and no one was active in the guild, I tried to get a little party going or just find someone to help teach me the game. And it was dead silent but they were asking for MONEY
Wildcard Gaming's guild disband post is one that came to mind as an example of placing the blame at one individual and airing a lot of drama. I don't think they were as large as a lot of the guild disbands, but the way they announced that they were finished was pretty contentious.
those excel files definitely look like work to me
In World of Warcraft the only thing they do is raiding, that's it. They don't organize anything else for the members. In the other games I play the guilds actually serve a purpose beyond raiding and the guild masters plan something for nearly every night of the week for people to participate in. You see that yourself in Final Fantasy. You don't see that in WoW.
I had an ffxiv guild fall apart that I was an officer in because the guild leader accepted help and attention from others, but the moment someone suggested that she needed to seek help for herself (personal stuff) they were suddenly transphobic and ableist. She got into a argument with another member who told her that he didn't mind helping her when he was able, but she needed to seek help on her own as well, work on getting herself better, not just have everyone do the work for her. she kicked him for being transphobic and ableist. I tried to mend the situation by bringing them both into a discord call, got both sides of the story and said yes, he should have had more tact with what he said, but you (her) also blew it way out of proportion and twisted things he said. You do need to also work on yourself because we cannot do that for you. You have to want to get better and by not actively seeking help, you're saying that you don't.
I was then demoted from being an officer and thrown under the bus so I left. Someone told me later that she tried to spin the narrative that I took his side and was also transphobic and albelist, but I had already sent someone screenshots of previous conversations I had with her basically going over what was said in the call in case she tried to do that. The screenshots were shared with the fc when she tried to twist it and the fc burned to the ground.
This feels like a good time to promote Drama Time, guild-ending stories happen all the time there
By now I simply think the moment a guild dies is the moment when you can no longer trust your comrades. Be that trust them to play correctly, trust them to handle the stuff they need to handle, trust that they stick around, trust that they are on time. I had a very tight group of 5 people I met through dungeons in TBC and after playing a lot together we each knew we can trust each other blindly during each and every dungeon run. This was perfect for dungeons but as soon as we wanted to join guilds to do more exciting content we quickly realised that we could only trust each other. We had no trust in the guild leaders to respect our female teammate. We had no trust in the loot councils to give us the stuff we wanted. We had no trust in most players in these guild to just do the fucking mechanics correctly. Well to be fair: During that time in WoW, even pressing your hotbar buttons in the right order was something special to behold on most other players. But knowing you are in a guild where you can just trust each other to play correctly is the most important thing.
You can look at Preach's Hunter Story and can clearly say: That guy left the guild because he lost all the trust he had in the team to play the way he expected them to play: To be aware of what they are doing. You do not want to be a guild leader of such a disparate group of people because you can not trust each other to keep their squabbles out of the raid. You can have people dislike each other but when you are in an encounter you need to trust each other that even if you dislike someone that they will still work and play together and solve the problem at hand: The boss, not their personal issues. If you can trust in that, you are golden. And in most cases you need to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and trust that they do - until they do not. That moment is always the moment where the guild leader sighs and knows: Oh fuck now I have to actually evaluate that guy on other merits than just their performance.
The reason guilds die is simple. It happens when the leadership doesn’t live up to whatever mission they developed. Most often this is caused by either one of two reasons 1) members of the leadership go inactive and either the leader promotes people who haven’t been properly vetted, and it sparks discord, or the people they promote really aren’t interested in being an active leader, they just want a title. The second reason is that the leader is so desperate at gaining members, they aren’t honest about what the guild actually is to potential members. This again sparks discord.
Couldn't be a GM again. It was just too much at once. More often than not I was playing guild HR, people messaging me at bonkers hours with gripes and complaints. I just wanted to raid with people and have a chill time. Brought out the worst in everyone when pulls went to shit.
Don't get me wrong, had a lot, an awful lot of great moments, but my lord was the hassle after everything was over not worth it.
Never again.
I felt a bit old and addicted to the game when he started naming all of those guilds and realising that I know or heard all of them 😅😅😅
Out of my experience of being in so many guilds that all ended, was due to lack of wow content, couple leaders (as in gf/bf or husband and wife duo), and the blame game.
I can’t speak from a raiding guild perspective but just as a player looking for a casual/social guild I haven’t found a single active one since Vanilla…. I had ONE guild back in like 2005 that was decent and since then absolutely nothing. WoW has always felt like such a lonely game because of it. Meanwhile on the flip side I’ve been in the same FC in FF14 for almost 5 years now and it’s been amazing.
Okay looking forward to that one ☝️ if you announce something like “death of the super guild’” give an approximate release date just in case it doesn’t come up in my feed.
Imo it starts when you let people "Do whatever they want" the start really fast to go insane, we had a leadership switch in a guild where i was for 5 years, the new leader.. well.. on one evening a new member of the guild (was there for 5 months) get kicked from officer just for fun.. after that.. everything turns slowly to sh*t. People get bullied.. or all case of shitty behavior.. or in my case. "Yeah we treat you like a outcast but we keep you in the guild because you are our best dps and we need your damage to clear the raids." i leave after a while and tbh i see it as _Justice_ that the whole guild collaps just one season later.
The FF14 FC/Guild is just a hangout guild. So I do not have these kinds of problems with that. But we tried raiding and it failed terribly for the reasons you said. So we hang out together.
In my experience it's always been guilds where the officers are all irl friends or you invite a new girl , she sounds , posts pics , she is hot and tells everyone she's single. Oh boy that has stirred far too many cauldrons of drama in the past.
i killed my old guild of 600 people because the GM took 300k gold from the GB, i exposed them and then it spiraled and the GM dissolved the guild entirely (she also was "taking a wow break" while taking 300k from the GB, not to mention she was an alcoholic with serious mental issues)
In my experience if the social dynamic is healthy it's the game systems. Content where you can't carry players that were able to do heroic, but not mythic. Needing exactly 20 people. Daily grinds causing disparity between players that make some people feel like others aren't doing as much.
i killed a guild intentionally once, because they really disrespected my friend and they were sort of a holes anyway, the leader that is, so i joined them, and just gently tugged at a few nice players, started playing more with them, subverting the core of that raid team a bit, and they just crumbled. but it would have been impossible to do had it not been for the shit leadership and bad atmosphere there already, the truth is that a good guild is soaked in anti poison. when a single person can topple a guild there is already a problem, the guild i killed had a bunch of nice people, cool people, who were good players and those guys had options, all i had to do is cause a few wipes here and there, and taking those guys to play with nicer people, better players and at some point within a couple of weeks the toxic leadership did themselves in and there was no more guild left to save.
All healthy discussion is good discussion. Looking forward to the video.
I absolutely agree with all that you have said.
Leadership that thinks "they need to always be improving". Its simple. You've been a last week CE guild for tier after tier as you "remove bad apples".... Wake up already.
I was an officer for like 2 months and it was the worst period of my life in wow. I don't blame the players, vast majority of them were very cooperative, but I'm a shit boss. I wish I could apologize to them. I'll never be in a responsability position in wow anymore.
At Blizzcon Mike Ybarra's introduction talked about "that one raid encounter your guild barely survived." The social aspects are true but I think we all felt that at some point.
So, as a former co guild leader on a 300-person guild on classic back on TBC. What killed us, and I am sure other guilds were politics and raiding. Now, I do not like to talk about politics online, but some things can happen in the world that will be discussed. Like the Russia and Ukraine war and how the American government was handling covid. And then raiding, we had a raid leader who was an ele shaman that quit the guild after he didn't get a piece of gear. We, as a guild, spend so many months with this guy, and he just ups and leaves for a piece of gear. It was crazy. Things like this will just kill a guild, unfortunately
There are as many reasons a guild dies as there are people in the guild. Everyone has their own reasons for being there and for leaving.
I killed my old guild in Cata. I was the raid leader/theory crafter. I felt really bad, but I hated playing the game at that point.
16:54 Is this some known drama I missed between Preach and Tettles?
yeee I noticed that as well, at first I thought he was talking about rich without wanting to say his name, but as much as I have consumed preach's content, never heard about tettles before.
Are you playing the B.P.M. soundtrack?
As a gm/raid leader first 3 mins is 100% true. It's juggling relationships and it's annoying af
I don't need to watch the video to know the answer. The reason why WoW guilds fall apart is that they continue to play WoW.
Many reasons over the years. First guild I was in was like a big family. Fully. Died when one of the guys met one of the girls and he turned out to despise her irl once they met. Caused issues between people and boom. Started dying as people stopped playing as much and therefore raiding couldn’t happen. Most other guilds was related to officers not being officers, just friends with a title of the GM. Conflicting interests, getting people who are amazing at the game to play with people who are less than adequate, shall we say. Always leads to drama. Loot issues has broken up groups. Biggest offender is probably girls tho. I hate that it’s a thing as a gay leaning bi dude, but it just is. And I’m tired of people saying or making out it isn’t a thing. It really fucking is. The second an actual female is around that sounds feminine, it’s over. At least 3/infinite guys will now change their entire behaviour around this girl and become different people. This girl is all that matters. Her guild. Her gear. Who she plays with. What she does. It gets insane.
What kind of guilds were these? Social guilds? PvP? Mythic raiding? Top 50, top 300, top 1000?
I've been in a few different Mythic raiding guilds somewhere between top 200 and top 1000, and I have never seen this happen, despite many of the guilds having one or more girls. I have seen girls be made fun of for being bad at the game, and I have seen girls getting kicked from the guild for actively causing drama, but I have never seen other raiders going out of their way to "give her" everything.
Greed by the leadership. Gearing up their alts before other people's mains is the biggest thing I've seen. I've seen officers with 8 characters all geared out while the rest of the guild is still wearing greens because they never get the drops.
What kills guilds? Well in my last few experiences it just takes One Guy.
Interesting, I didn’t get a notification for this video
Please no, not the PTSD on being a guild master or raid leader Mike.. I had gotten away from that
Always managing peoples problems, solving issues like I'm a parent, raiders acting like 5 year olds. Fucking never again
This makes me miss drama time
Drama time is still going, just moved to its own channel to please the youtube algorithm gods.
Josh the priest……killed a guild
Husband cheated on the wife, guild split with them, both halves went to shit within month. 10/10
Not denying that BFU were solid skill-wise, but the reason they ranked so well was in no small part due to them getting all the strats and weird ass funky WAs from the top5 guilds before shit went public - that certainly made up for a lot of these so-called "3 days but actually 4 days during the first 4 weeks" guilds. Especially when you pair it with the "not mandatory but we kinda expect you to be around for just about every PTR testing session on Friday & Saturday evenings" that certainly was a thing in BFU + the mandatory alt split raiding and the "we don't force you to do m+ and worldquests all day... but you better do a shitton of m+ and island farming outside of raiding hours".
Again, not saying BFU sucked, but I think you're heavily overestimating just how much better they were than your average 4-5day world#50 guild. "If we went full day raiding we'd have been world#10" also really doesn't mean all too much when there's barely 10 guilds doing said full day raiding, like, obviously you'd then be ahead of all the non-24/7 guilds.
Guild drama made raiding so off putting to me I stopped playing MMOs. The petty drama happens way more often than the more serious drama. Leads to guild collapse and ugh. Got sick of it
Why was Tettles useless?
Complacency kills guilds
Blizzard.
Me, I destroy WoW guilds.
Lol poor Tettles
Wait what's this music from... ?
A bit of a hot take but guilds are meant to die, sometime the solution is just to start anew a big reason why some guilds get bad is that they kept going for too long. The leadership often taking decisions just so they can keep going rather than try to respect their current players moreover in hardcore content a lot people prioritizing skills over personality also has been a pretty bad thing in wow.
I don't like the whole poison narrative going on around Minute 5 (haven't watched further yet).
It's never just one person. If two people are fighting, both of them aren't seeking a peaceful conflict resolution. Now, if one of them cheated on the other, or one said the n-word, this might have been a clear cut case, but even then, these things usually don't happen out of nowhere - unless you have a real nutter among you.
So usually if you want to lead a good guild you have to have a clear goal - usually it's high end raiding - and a clear vision of how to achieve it. Usually guilds like yours end because high end players are leaving for greener pastures, or because the game turns to shit and everybody is annoyed at each other because in truth they are frustrated with the game.
I see one person being the cause for a fire that burns the house down, but that one person is rarely the one stuffing it with kindle and pouring gasoline all over.
If only there was a mutual agreement in interest and people could organise their own shit haha 😅
I’ve led two guilds that have both died within a few months. Both in classic - One died due to a racist in the guild not owning up to the fact that what he said was racist, I kicked him and then 15 of his friends left with him so there went our raid team, and I didn’t have the will to rebuild half a team. The first guild I ran was as a pseudo GM running things because the GM was woefully incompetent and useless. We thought we could branch off and form our own guild. Our classic server was dying and a bunch of people decided to just server xfer rather than rejoin as a new guild, and there it all went. It can really be absolutely anything that can kill a guild
My rules for joining/staying in a guild:
1.) Never join a family guild unless it's with people I know personally
2.) Never join a guild where the guild leader is also the raid leader
3.) Never join a guild where the majority of people in it are under the age of 20
4.) Never join a guild that has an e-girl in it (NOT A FEMALE, AN E-GIRL THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!!!)
5.) Never join a guild where the chat allows politics, racism, general douchebaggery, etc.
6.) Never join a guild where the majority of its players are alts of the main guild clique
Needless to say, I'm never going to find a guild.
Number 2 is huge in my experience. You need checks and balances. I had a raid leader that misunderstood a mechanic on a fight one time and we started to butt heads about it. He was a good guy but since he was the raid leader everyone assumed that he was right and I was wrong and it wasn't until a couple days banging our heads against the wall on Deathbringer Saurfang that the guild leader pulled us aside to get to the bottom of the issue. He did some research and realized I was right the whole time. If the raid leader was also the guild leader and I had a conflict right that I probably would have been benched, they would have kept having the same problem, but that wouldn't have helped me or them. Having the checks and balances solved the issue. As far as the issue itself that fight had the two adds that would pop up and they needed to aggro the healer, which meant using no cleave or AOE. The raid leader said don't use it at all in the fight but that fight was a dps race Patchwerk style. A ret paladin not using divine storm or concecrate was absolutely stupid. The technique was to time them after the adds were far enough away from you. The adds kept aggroeing into mele and they kept assuming it was because I used concecrate. AOE spells did 96 percent less aggro to those adds it was cleaves that would keep them in mele. Turned out it was the raid leader's wife who was a blood dk who kept using Heartstrike which was a cleave that was messing up the mechanic but I kept getting blamed for it lol. It got sorted out and we were all good after that but it would have gone really bad for me without the separation of roles.
Shitty leadership kills a guild.
what is it with wow guilds and drama -- ffxiv is so chill in comparison
Phases that last too long
when he pulled up the ducking datasheet. if you have to do this in a game for people to reliably kill mythic bosses. the game is fucking designed wrong... they just need to make the fights simpler... guilds are about having a laugh not being a buch of sweaty dickheads. if you dont like it? go play another game... preach sure did untill blizz came calling and invited him to their HQ to smooth things over.....
Malygos 25