Activation legality is by far the most complex and convoluted aspect of the game and anyone that says otherwise does not understand how screwed it actually is.
Even something to most yugioh players seen as trivial, like can not summon Mirrorjade with Lubellion on field under Rivalry of Warlord is pretty confusing to explain to a new player
I liked using the card in my kashtira deck lol. Honestly a good thing it’s banned, but it was only at 1 it comes up like twice ina hundred duels unless u get lucky draws
I hate the "do something, also do something else" activation legality ruling. Whereby a card like Forbidden Droplet can attempt to negate an already negated monster and halve its ATK which is already 0. This is because "halving 0" is still considered to be having an effect. But *almost* no other card or effect can be activated if you cannot perform all mandatory parts of the effect (classic example being Guardian Chimera Draw, and if you do, Destroy effect). There's also the OCG-specific ruling where it's legal to activate Dugares declaring Special Summoning from GY, even if there is no valid monster to Special Summon from the GY at the point the effect is activated. As long as another other effect you could declare on activation can legally be chosen. Thankfully this isn't in the TCG yet because it's insane.
Yeah, it's pretty straightforward, you blow up their field and summon nib, then you summon the token, before you summon the token for all purposes they don't have monsters so you cant summon a monster
The TCBOO rules (and the other, similar floodgates) are genuinely one of the most frustrating things about those cards to me. If I could tribute or link away an unhelpful monster, they would be infinitely more bearable to play with.
Imaginet surprise finding out I couldn't make mikailis with the only two sisters I had on board because they're spellcasters and it's a warrior :') Like am I insane for believing that doesn't count
@@Ice_Icemb It's not that they can see the future. It's more like they're proactively stopping you from taking actions that violate the restrictions they put in place. Too often you forget the order of Summoning a monster: (1) Choosing what to summon (2) Sending any required materials to the GY, or stacking them if Xyz Summoning (3) Placing the monster on the field TCBOO and similar floodgates restrict you at step (1), and so you have to do this step under those restrictions. For example, if you control a Dragon, you cannot choose a Dragon to summon under TCBOO since it would violate the card's effect.
The logic I'm seeing here is in the exact thing that Kaiser is preventing: while Kaiser Colosseum is applying, you cannot place a monster on the field if it would result in you controlling more monsters than your opponent. If the result is "0 and 1" then it doesn't care if 0 turns off Kaiser, it just sees "the opponent controls more monsters." It's looking at an effect and asking "will this immediate action cause the opponent to control more monsters?" before it's turned off.
According to Master Duel, Continuous effects like that are also not applied anew while another effect resolves (such as Bagooska turning everything to defence), only between chain links.
How about when I removed this card from the field and then they summoned 4 monsters and reset this card and magically, I can only summon 1 monster still. Explain that
a reason for this might be that nibiru and kaiju slumber summons 2 cards to the field, 1 to your field and one to the opponents, Colosseum states that your opponent can't place monsters on the field if it exceeds the amount of monsters you control, thus nib and kaiju slumber summons 2 cards whilst the Colosseum controller will only have 1 monster on board. thus trying to summon 2 when you can only summon 1. the effect of Colosseum applies regardless to which field you summon. TL:DR 2 summons > 1 monster on board
I doubt that is the case: at the end of the video Coder has three Salamangreat monsters on the field by his fifth summon, yet Nibiru cannot be activated, even though it is attempting to summon only two monsters, which is less than three. Honestly, I don't get it
@@florinalinmarginean1135 Maybe it is because it is trying to increase the amount of monsters your oponent controls? What happens if you try to ojama trio your oponent that has kaiser up
@@florinalinmarginean1135 Essentially once active Colosseum check constantly and doesn't allow even for a moment to disrespect the equation (which is what nib would do). It's a little counter intuitive but a lot of rules in yugioh are after all.
@@LorisEnsatzukenIt's not counterintuitive at all because it depends upon resolution. That is almost always what people are refusing to understand. This is not MTG where you can have effects happen in the middle of resolution. The game state doesn't change until resolution so until whatever it is that you're trying to do resolved, Kaiser Coliseum wouldn't turn off. And since it's not turned off, you can't resolve it and therefore can't activate it because you can't intentionally activate something that can't be resolved at activation. There are multiple other rulings that perfectly explain why this doesn't work. It is 100% logically consistent with the rest of the game.
I'm guessing the reason it works that way is because of resolution rules. If you can't legally resolve the entire effect at time of activation, then you can't activate it. Like how lumina doesn't let you discard to summon a lightsworn from grave unless you already have a lightsworn in grave. You can't do it even if you're discarding a lightsworn for cost. There has to be lightsworn in grave at time of activation. Same deal with TCBOO. It won't let you attempt the summon unless the summon can legally happen under the current game state. It doesn't realize that the summon being attempted removes the monster stopping the summon from being legal. So for nibiru, it would be that gamestate doesn't let you attempt an effect that would summon a monster to your board at any point during the effect. It doesn't know or care that the first half of the effect clears the board.
@@dragon-id5uj that wouldn't change anything. The problem is that nibiru summons itself. The token is irrelevant. It could be rewritten so that it clears the board and summons the token, and that's it for that effect. Then have a trigger effect as a separate effect that summons nibiru itself when a primal being token is on board.
Not quite, when Nib is activated, it would be able to summon itself just fine because the opponent has more monsters, the issue is that it tributes all of the opponent's monsters before it summons itself, which should still let it be summoned because kaiser doesn't apply when the controller has no monsters, but kaiser colloseum doesn't check that it would be turned off when it's looking into the future (apparently).
@@qedsoku849No, they are 100% correct. It's not looking into the future any more than any other card when performing its effect. The problem is that, yes, it hasn't resolved. Kaiser Coliseum can't deactivate itself in the middle of resolving an effect. You're expecting the effect of KC to immediately turn off, but it doesn't. No card does, that's not how the game works. You can't resolve the effect of Nibiru without first resolving a card that would make it turn off, so you can't activate the effect.
Nibiru tributes and summons, he doesn't tribute then wait 5 seconds and summons Same thing as TCBOO there's no "time" it takes for effects to resolve, it just happens Nibiru tributes AND summons, and you can't summon
@@sharktos3218 all right go to an official regional tournament in attempt to summon Nibiru underneath Kaiser while calling a judge over to confirm if your plate is legal, and make sure it’s recorded and that’s the name of the Regional you attend it is available
I thinn its because kaiser is a continuous which is the main differentiation between kaiju slumber. Kaiser checks when the effect is activated, and is continuous through resolution. Kaiser doesnt check the field again once the monsters are tributed, its stuck in its original state of how many monsters are on the field orginally at activation of nib
@yuemaeve no its checking if your opponent is trying to Summon monster(s) which are more than are currently on the board, regardless of what has to happen to Summon said monster(s), including tributing. Essentially it counts the monsters now, and then it says well you're trying to Summon more monsters right now and you can't. It ignores the way you get there
@yuemaeve basically it forbids activating and effect to Summon if the amount of summoned monsters excess the ratio listed. What happens in between isn't of consequence
@@GeminiMoto Which it shouldn't because the summoning part of the card is under "If you do ~ Then" clauses of the card. There is no definite summoning yet until after the face-up cards are tributed, which should have disabled Kaiser Colosseum in the process.
@KenEvangelista it most definitely should regardless of the if then, you should re read what I said. You're *attempting* to Summon when you're not allowed to. That's why it won't let you activate. It's similar to cards that read "your opponent cannot activate effects that includes summoning a monster".
When coder mention that it seems like you can't tribute or replace any type monsters on the same type monster under "the only can be one" it really all make sense
thought about it for a bit, and it may be because you're technically trying to summon an additional monster to your opponents side of the field, whoch is not allowed because it is a summon that would "exceed" the number of monsters your opponent already controls
@@qedsoku849 on the one hand it’s annoying but on the other hand it makes complete sense. only the affect is seeing into the future not the “condition”
So, here's how I'm taking this. You control Kaiser Colosseum and 1 monster, so Kaiser is live. Because it is live, it'll see that while resolving Nib, it'll put the opponent at more monsters on board, even though it would be zero monsters on your board at that time. Because it's mid-resolution, Kaiser doesn't turn off. It's the same thing with Kaiju Slumber. Even though Kaiju Slumber is simultaneous, it sees that you are trying to summon to your field while controlling the same number of monsters as your opponent.
I think the explanation is simply that “the effect” Is capable of seeing that you will clear the field and have zero monsters making Nibiru activation illegal. But the condition of kaiser (requiring you to control at least one monster) doesn’t see The field will be cleared and so will allow the effect to still apply. basically effects can see into the future but conditions can only see the now
I believe the logic is the line that states : his/her opponent cannot place a monster on the field if his/her number of monsters would exceed the number of monsters of this controller At the time kaiser is on the field, and Nibiru would attempt to activate & then resolve, nibiru would tribute all monsters, player with Nibiru would then summon Nibiru from hand thus causing the player with Kaiser to have 0 monsters. My understanding comes from the language that would defend said ruling due to the placing of Nibiru causing the confliction with Kaiser
It is. It was the same rationale with IKS back in 2015 before KC got the banhammer in the TCG. You cannot attempt to summon a monster that could create a gamestate (no matter how temporary) that could attempt to cause the opponent to control more monsters than the player who controls KC.
I know these videos usually don't get as many views as some others, but these are my fav vids on your channel Everytime. This is why I originally started watching your content in the first place 😁
Right, but when Nib is summoned there are no cards on the opponents board meaning KC is off. What he's getting at is that the rules of the game see ahead that you will have more monsters by summoning Nib. But it doesn't see that a board wipe is going to happen between the activation and resolution of Nib that should turn KC off. So it doesn't allow Nib to activate.
@@lucasalarcon3230 And it's why it lock them away. Kaiser check the future but doesn't update his activation condition until open game state. So during the effect the equation has the controller to 0 (even if for a brief moment) and that lock any possibility of summon.
Immediately the term “far sighted” comes to mind if we were to keyword. Recognizes you’re going to summon more guys, but not that you’d be clearing them first
It took me a second but it is as if your current monsters are in a final state, and a new monster, while replacing a monster, where you think it would make them void, constitutes as a new monster.
It makes perfect sense to me. Nib summoning summons a token by mandatory effect. Which you cant do because you would have one monster and your opponent would have 0
That actually doesn’t make it make sense, because Colosseum says, “When there is 1 or more monsters on the field of the controller of this card” meaning that when they don’t control a monster, the card does nothing. It’s a pretty unintuitive ruling.
@@Kintaku but they never don't control anything while the effect is active. Cause the resolution of nib tributes. So before an open gamestate where Kaiser can check active/not active it shows active with you having 0 and your opponent can't play a monster to their field and then give you one because that would exceed the conditions.
But that condition is onlu active while the controller of KC has 1 or more monsters on their side of the field, if they go KC pass wjth no monsters, the Opp can summons as many monsters as they want @sinistrdairy2971
@@sinistrdairy2971 it doesn’t though. Idk if you’ve ever played again KC when your opponent controls no monsters, but it literally does nothing in that case. It’s kind of like Secret Village when the opponent has no spellcasters. That’s why Coder was confused on the ruling, because if tributing read them as having 0 monsters, you should be able to summon. But simultaneously, if you control nothing and they have monsters on field, it would also work because you would only be summoning one monster. It’s at best confusing.
@@Kintaku you have to take it apart. Kaiser is clairvoyant it knows that if nib effect were to resolve we would have 0 monsters and the opponent would summon a monster. Because we currently have monsters the effect saying they cannot do that is active. It doesn't matter at what point we control 0 the point is that during the resolution before nib is summoned we would have 0. And because 1 is greater than 0 it's not allowed. If nib tributed for cost it would be fine.
My understanding of the ruling is. It tributes all the opponents' monsters. It's 0:0, then you cannot Summon the Nib giving you 1:0 thusly breaking Kaiser's ruling
@nerazim1110 nono, so Kaiser states your opponent can't summon more monsters than you control. Nib wipes the board and then summons itself, THEN summons the token. So if your opponent controls Kaiser Nib cannot be activated
@@SoraSeiichiVT that's literally what I meant. Kaiser does not turn off mid-resolution, and you control no monsters, so you can't summon nib. Therefore, you can't activate the effect
@nerazim1110 The way I interpreted your comment was like since the effect of Kaiser is still active why couldn't you Summon Nib since they would be considered simultaneous with the board wipe.
Of course it's a rulings nightmare that got this stupid thing banned again. The TCG couldn't handle something as simple as Kaiju interactions, it took the nuances of Nibiru's interactions with face-downs to make the OCG give up on allowing this thing, less than the fact that it's a Continuous Spell and thus is unsearchable by Pharonic Advent, making it sackier than the other floodgates.
Because tributing + summoning 2 monsters is a single effect. It is not like you tribute field for cost then summon 2 monsters for the effect. Kaiser C checks that your card is trying to summon 2 monsters as part of its effect while they have only 1 monsters therefore it does not allow it.
But he couldn't used a nib when Coder had 3 monsters. Kaiser prevents summoning more monsters than the controller of this card have, so just summoning 2 shouldn't be an issue
I might be wrong but is it not the ‘on the field ’ clause messing this up? Like coder controls 1 monster and nib would special summon 2 monsters on the field, so then that would end up being over 2, but if coder controlled 2+ monsters, maybe it would be fine?
@@unoreyno129 But during the resolution of Nibiru, your opponent goes to 0 monsters, yet Kaiser Colosseum is not allowed to turn off until after Nibiru would finish resolving. This prevents you from resolving the whole effect of Nibiru, and so its activation is illegal under KC regardless of how many monsters your opponent has.
Ok, why do floodgates have the ability to look into the future game state? Wouldn't there be less ruling issues involving floodgates if they're only able to observe the current game state?
In the case of Kaiser Colosseum, if it were not able to look into the future, it'd be even more obnoxious, because then it would have to turn off your opponent's ability to summon at all if they have an equal amount or more monsters on the field than you do. An effect like Kaiser can only conceivably work by looking into the future. TCBOO, Rivalry, etc. cannot look into the future, despite what Coder says, and it is exactly because they cannot see the future that they are so frustrating. They simply make it so it is not legal to attempt the summon of a monster with a type/attribute that you do not control (or already control in the case of TCBOO). When you attempt to summon a monster, you pick the monster to summon first, then pick the appropriate materials to send to the GY, but those types of floodgates stop you at that first step. If those floodgates could look into the future, you'd actually be able to circumvent them much more easily, basically the same logic would apply as why you can still summon under Kaiser Colosseum when your opponent controls a monster, as long as you don't put more monsters on the field by using monsters you already control as material/tributes instead. Kaiser Colosseum is just particularly weird because it only partially looks into the future, as explained in the video, which leads to this unintuitive ruling.
They look in the future they don't let you alter the game state and the effect check is on activation the gane doesn't check for continuos effects in the middle of effect resolution
@@JamesNintendoTurd thats BS, why did they even make these cards?! So hold up, TCBOO and Rivalry just makes it so that any action you'd take of placing a monster of the same type/attribute an illegal action? Let's say I only control 1 Wind Winged Beast monster on the field while TCBOO is up, why is it that I can't just tribute it or send to the GY to Summon another monster of the same type. Does it not imply that I can only control 1 monster of said type on the field, therefore would it not be logical thinking that I am able to Summon a monster of the same type as long as I remove that face-up monster on the field, since by the end of that Summon I'd still control 1 monster of that same type?
@@nashcifer5666no because you already have one thus illegal, tribute summoning is not send one to GY then put one on field, it’s all one instance, so if you cant summon another monster of the same type on field due to restrictions then the same goes for tribute summoning
last time I saw rulings this weird, was when I was made awae what Darkness Approaches did prior to Link monsters appearing - face-down Attack Position was one helluva rulings swamp for judges, and I am 100% sure the judge community gave max 10 seconds to think about FDA Link monsters and went "nah, get this scheisse out of here."
I think its kinda right the ruling because at least in MD is coded as a 3 step thing, step 1, tribute the entire field, step 2, summon nib, step 3 summon token, so kaiser checks before the second step and it becomes an illegal activation
The issue is due to the tense shift of kaiser colosseum. Kaiser's restriction is in the present. The opponent cannot activate an effect that WOULD exceed the monsters you have over the course of the effect (future). So, for Kaiju slumber, because the field would be wiped and the opponent would have 0 cards, and you cannot complete the second step to special summon to your field over the card limit, which would be 0, then slumber cannot be acrivated. In nibiru's case, because it would tribute the field, leaving your opponent with 0 monsters, it cannot complete it's simultaneous effect to special summon itself because it would be over the 0 limit, that xomes from after tributing for nibiru. Kaiser's effect requirements only get applied after nibiru's or slumber's effect has resolved (like if you flip up a "DNA surgery" while "tcboo" is on the field and your opponent chains a special aummon to it). However, because of the word "would," it can look into the future to see if, during a card's activation and resolution, the monster reatriction would be violated at any point in the process.
So to summarize Kaiser Colosseum doesn't check its condition's fulfillment during resolution of an effect, therefore its effect would be active during resolution of an effect, and since the game checks for the legality of a play before activation it won't allow the activation. This is kind of an absurd limit case.
Yet it also makes perfect sense. The game state must first allow the effect that's attempting to be activated to fully resolve before letting you commit to the play. KC doesn't allow that with Nibiru, so Nibiru cannot be used under KC.
This would really tick me off if I did not learn this in this way. Having it brought to my attention like this, it makes enough sense that I am at peace
oh the joy of anecdotal evidence for rulings over coherent rules where every rule will affect all other rules to create intuitively understandable rules ps.: i think the issue is that you try to put a monster on the opponents board while it disregards the removing of it so they have any number bigger than 0 you try to summon a monster to their field that means you try to summon a monster to A field so that it is more monsters than what your opponent has and the game says no you are not allowed to place monsters on the field if that means you increase the amount of A field to bigger than the opponents number. if this is true all effects that summon to the opponents field should be illegal under kaiser but i lack the technology to test this idea out
Im am no expert, but does it maybe have something to do with the opponent being the owner and you the controller of the card? In no other case i can see why the Kaiser is confused ^^
It also works that way with monarchs stormforth (with monarchs having been a meta deck at the time of the ban): you can't tribute over your opponent's only monster while you have no monsters.
Its similar to not being able to say use the only plant on your field to summon another plant under there can be only one, or monsters unaffected by traps being negated by skill drain.
It's the same reason why you cannot tribute an opponents monster for your summon with monarchs stormforth. "You cannot leave your opponent with less monsters than you at the end of the summon/chainlink while kaiser is active on the field"
And this is the main reason why Konami OCG just banned Kaiser Colosseum in the lastest OCG banlist. This card is so popular in the OCG's Phantom Nightmare format.
The summon of Nibiru is simultaneous, but the token is not, so you would activate an effect that would give you 1 extra money while they control monsters, which is why you can't nib. "... And if you do, summon this card, THEN dining a token"
Actually that makes sense because in order to complete the resolution of Interrupted Kaiju Slumber, you *_must_* do BOTH of the following: (1) Destroy as many monsters on the field as possible (2) Special Summon 2 Kaijus, 1 to each field Jowgen prevents (2) from even being attempted until Kaiju Slumber finishes resolving, and thus Kaiju Slumber cannot be activated even though Jowgen would leave the field during the resolution. If you cannot complete the resolution of a card or effect under the current game state, then you cannot activate said card or effect.
It's the same reason you can't try to banish a face-up Imperial Iron Wall. Even though it's part of the effect and not cost, you can't even try to do it even if the condition would be removed.
It's an order of operations thing. Nib tributes the entire field then summons itself, then it summons the token. So you can't nib under Kaiser's because of the brief window mid-activation where nib didn't summon the token yet
Not quite. If Kaizer worked like Gozen you wouldn't be able to super poly 2 of your monsters and 1 of your opponents monsters in a gamestate where you both have 2 monsters but you can.
Slumber is the outlier here, it has a speciffic ruling that makes its effect possible even if there are kaijus on the field. The niberu thing makes sense if you know that cards see the board state as " how it is" and not as "how it will be". This is the same reason why The Creator cant use its effect if you have a empty gy, sure there will be a monster in there from the discard, but at the effects activation there would not be a valid target.
Kaiser Colosseam: "If there is 1 or more monster(s) on the field of the controller of this card, his/her opponent cannot place a monster on the field if his/her number of monsters would exceed the number of monsters that are on the field of this card's controller. The cards that are already on the field before this card's activation are unaffected by this effect."
I think the logic behind it is something like this : Colliseum first sentence that says "If you control 1 or more monsters" is a requirement for it's effect, and when any card that would destroy your monsters AND then summon monster(s) to their field, whether simultaneously or not, It'd be Illegal, because of Colliseum effect still linger, but if the summon hapen in different chain link, the Colliseum requirement already unfulfilled so it's now legal
Conjunctions shouldn't determine activation legality in this case, so simultaneous or sequential is irrelevant. Here is why I think it should be legal. While Player A controls Kaiser and at least 1 monster, and Player B controls 1 fewer monsters than them. Player B activating Nibiru is not attempting to place a monster on their field that would exceed the number of monsters Player A controls at that specific point in time. We can disregard the summon of the Token as its summon is indeterminate and not relevant to the actual ruling anyway. Here's why it's not legal. Kaiser looks into the future, calculating the number of monsters Player A would control if Nibiru activated and tributed all possible monsters. Then, at the point just before Nibiru would be summoned simultaneously, it's checking if Player B is attempting to put more monsters on the board than Player A controls at that point in time. If it returns YES - which is often the case, as Nibiru tributes all of Player A's monsters so they control 0, so placing 1 monster (Nibiru) is greater than 0 - it comes back to the present and says "STOP! You are attempting to perform an illegal action based on the possible future I have predicted!" This is why Player B cannot legally activate Nibiru. It reminds me of that Tom Cruise film, Minority Report, where they arrest people for crimes they will commit in the future. Kaiser Colosseum is basically a Precognitive with the Precrime unit and anybody trying to activate Nibiru is the future criminal. This just leaves the question of why Kaiser Colosseum doesn't recognize its own effect would not technically be applying at that very brief moment in time between when Player A would control 0 monsters after they are all Tributed by Nibiru and the simultaneous Summon of Nibiru. But maybe Continuous effects cannot stop applying for such brief a moment in time? Or maybe it's because this ruling is super arbitrary and they didn't think of that when ruling it. Regardless, it's a crazy ruling. Nothing should be looking into the future to predict gamestates like this. It's an awful basis for a ruling, one that has no precedent in any other ruling.
Great wording. However by that logic it should recognize that it's turned "off" when Nib attempts to summon the Token allowing the activation in the first place, since it 'understands' its owner would have 0 monsters in order to do the comparison. I gave up on this years ago.
Kaiser Colosseum cannot "turn off" while Nibiru is resolving, since ALL of the following count as one effect: (1) Tribute as many face-up monsters on the field as possible (2) Special Summon Nibiru (happens simultaneously as (1)) (3) Special Summon a Token to the opponent's field While all of this is happening, Kaiser Colosseum (and similar floodgates) is live regardless of how many monsters are in play at once. You're effectively attempting to put a monster in play while, for a brief moment, your opponent will have 0. Because Kaiser Colosseum is still active at this time, it's recognizing that you cannot put a Token in play to complete the resolution of Nibiru -- thus making the activation of Nibiru illegal under KC.
@@cameraredeye3115 Kaiser is still using a future point in time to determine if the activation of Nibiru is legal, so logically, it should also be able to use that point in time to determine if its own effect would be applying. It's like the Earthbound Immortal ruling when you activate a Field Spell while one is already controlled. They destroy themselves before the activation of the new Field Spell resolves because in that briefest moment in time, you don't control a Field Spell. The summon of the Token is also irrelevant to the ruling. It's checking the number of cards each player would control and be attempting to summon, at the point in time after all possible monsters are tributed and just before Nibiru would be summoned simultaneously (it already shouldn't be doing this because these things are simultaneous, but it is). So if Nibiru tributes all monsters, Kaiser's controller controls 0 monsters, Nibiru's activator is now attempting to place 1 monster on the field. 1 is greater than 0, therefore the activation is illegal in the present time. The summon of the Token doesn't factor into the ruling because the illegal action occurs before that point of the effect even gets to resolve.
@@monkfishy6348 And that is exactly why Nibiru's activation is illegal under KC. Same ruling goes for Interrupted Kaiju Slumber, since it's basically the same effect.
The only thing I can think of this is how chains work, the chain of activation of nibiru would require u to tribute the enemy whole field however during this said chain kaiser colosseum effect still lingers bcuz it only deactivates after the whole chain's resolution hence not being able to activate
Maybe it has to do with the fact that those effects want to summon more than 1 monster, as colosseum doesn't say you can't mure on your side, it says you can't put more on the field.
The thing about Kaiser Colosseum and similar cards is, they can't update their effects until it's an open game state. While Nibiru is resolving, your opponent goes to 0 face-up monsters on the field, but KC doesn't turn off despite its condition no longer being met. Thus it interprets the board state as "you cannot place any monsters on the field" which prevents Nibiru from completely resolving. So resolution rules dictate that Nibiru and similar cards (like Interrupted Kaiju Slumber) cannot be used under KC.
It's because the effect of Nibiru has to tribute, then summon itself then summon the token to your opponent's board, and then you'd be summoning 2 monsters (1 to your opponent's field) which you cannot do under Kaiser with 1 monster already present on the board. You cannot attempt to summon the token after the nib hits the board, and since they both most summon as part of Nib's effect, you cannot nib at all
It makes a lot more sense if you consider the tribute and the summon as one simultaneous action, since one causes the other to happen. If they have 5 monsters and you have 0, then summoning nibiru would make their monsters go from 5 -> 0 and yours from 0 -> 1 at the same time, therefore that action would not be allowed. There isn't an in-between step to get their monsters to 0 to invalidate the effect.
This interaction makes perfect sense. Kaiser is unable to look ahead and see the end result of an effect like Nibiru. Because of the 'And if you do' clause in Nibiru's effect, Kaiser only has the ability to see that Nibiru will summon a guy onto your board (assuming you control Kaiser). Once it sees that, Kaiser can't look any further and prevents Nibiru from activating.
It doesn't make sense because in that case, Interrupted Kaiju Slumber would destroy all monster on the field THEN try to summon 1 kaiju in each side of the field. Given that when the then apply the board is cleared KC should not activate and let the special summon pass. Instead KC just go f u and won't let you activate Interrupted Kaiju Slumber. Nibiru is iffy because normaly it tribute everything and summon itself at the same time, the spell does not. "Destroy as many monsters on the field as possible, then Special Summon in Attack Position, 2 "Kaiju" monsters with different names from your Deck (1 on each side), but they cannot change their battle positions, and must attack, if able. During your Main Phase, except the turn this card was sent to the GY: You can banish this card from your GY; add 1 "Kaiju" monster from your Deck to your hand. You can only activate 1 "Interrupted Kaiju Slumber" per turn." Anyway, "there can be only one" and other terrible floodgate should be banned and never see the light of a duel anyway or be severly errated like brain control or chaos emperor dragon.
The problem comes from Kaiser Colosseum. That card has Prohibition-like card text, so you cannot do a lot of things that you should be able to do just because something in the text would change the number of monsters in a way that breaks Colosseum.
- Opp. field has "Kaiser Colloseum" active - Your Nibiru activates, wipe opp. board. - Your opp. has 0 monsters, thus Kaiser doesn't resolve. - Nibiru summons FIRST in your field. - THEN, a token is summoned on his field - Token's treated as a monster, triggering Kaiser eff. No other monster in your field cannot be summoned UNLESS your opp. has 0 monsters or just pop it.
FYI if El Shaddoll Winda is face up Nibiru cannot be activated. As Nibiru attempts to do two special summons but Winda says each player is allowed one (after she is summoned).
Because of the and if clause it does the check after each monster is tributed so once first monster is removed kaiser checks count. Then 2nd card removed kaiser checks. So once it reaches the state that your opponent has one card nib does its check if it can be summoned then kiaser blocks it so nib does not meet its conditions.
The OCG (and MD by extension) now rule it as "The new controller of the monster can activate the effect as if it was their monster". I think it makes sense. The monster is on YOUR field, so YOU can use the effect
@@nerazim1110 yeah... before that in the OCG it was the player who summoned the monster, even when he has no longer control of it, can activate the effect. in the TCG it came down to the Judge deciding how it plays out.
Nibiru is attempting to create a situation where you will control more monsters than your opponent, because Nib hits your board first, THEN it summons a monster on your opponent's board. Even though it's a single effect, it is attempting to create a gamestate which an active card effect says cannot happen (i.e., opponent has KC, so you cannot perform an effect that would a. summon a monster and b. cause you to have more monsters than your opponent). If it summoned the token first, it *would* be legal.
The reason is interesting and has to do with how effects work and apply mid chain and are resolved by the game. Because kaiser coloseum is applying due to you having a monster on the field, it doesnt get turned off mid resolution. So if nib would attempt to activate, it would clear the field then attempt to summon itself to the opponents field, making them place 1 monster on tue field wilhich is more than you would control (which would be zero) thus making the activation of nib (or slumber) an illegal activation when under kaiser coloseum. Its the same interaction as sangen summoning (tenpai field spell) and fiendsmith desirei's negate, where desirei tries to negate both sangen summoning and the effect of an on field tenpai monster at the same time. The tenpai monster will still resolve because during resolution sangen summoning is still applying its protection (this doesnt get turned off mid resolution, same as kaiser v nib/slumber).
the intial check for effect activation is given at the moment nibs effect starts. the effect itself doesnt care what happens in the meantime, it only cares about the final result in the moment of summoning, which means: Short: In the Moment of Nib entering the Field it is the only creature card on the field, meaning, if active, kaisers doesn't allow this to happen. bit more Detailed: the activation condition for kaisers (as a permanent) is met at the Moment Nib would be activated and since its all happening in one go/effect (besides the token, which is summoned after nib) and kaisers doesn't directly state anything of deactivation and instead only talks about condition and final result and is a preventive effect, the step between in niburus effect doesn't deactivate it, which keeps it effective for the entire effect and prevents nibiru from being summoned on a 0 creature board or generally any board that would result in you having more creatures in that very moment. actually i think its just a smart move to bring kaisers to counter nib and thats it, the ruling is more like a clearification to stop disputes. also a reprint of nib that summons the token first would fix this, ironically.
ruling nightmares like this could be easily prevented with a simple ruling stating: effects of same (summon, both players draw): are simultaneous, all other effects are considered sequential
Nibiru mentions you must tribute at least 1 face up monster, but Kaiser blocks the tribute. In simple terms, imagine Nibiru success tribute monster and special summon, at that time, the Kaiser player owns zero monster on the field, while Nibiru player owns 2 monsters (nibiru and token). Maybe Nibiru is using effect to summon, while Kaiju is summon conditions, because I remember Barrone able to negate Nibiru but not Kaiju.
I feel like it's because of the order of the summons by the effects of both nib and slumber since the order of the summons happens in the order of the person who activated the effects would summon first, and since the controller of kaiser would no longer have monsters at the resolution of the nib/slumber wouldn't have a monster, then that would result in the opponent having a monster before the controller of kaiser would have a monster. Idk exactly the logic behind it, but this would be my guess.
Activation legality is by far the most complex and convoluted aspect of the game and anyone that says otherwise does not understand how screwed it actually is.
pole position ftk was the craziest thing i've ever seen ruling-wise
it's ok Coder Mikanko Solo's Kaiser Colliseum Good luck crafting 20 Ultra's to counter 1 super rare! XD
Even something to most yugioh players seen as trivial, like can not summon Mirrorjade with Lubellion on field under Rivalry of Warlord is pretty confusing to explain to a new player
I liked using the card in my kashtira deck lol. Honestly a good thing it’s banned, but it was only at 1 it comes up like twice ina hundred duels unless u get lucky draws
I hate the "do something, also do something else" activation legality ruling. Whereby a card like Forbidden Droplet can attempt to negate an already negated monster and halve its ATK which is already 0. This is because "halving 0" is still considered to be having an effect. But *almost* no other card or effect can be activated if you cannot perform all mandatory parts of the effect (classic example being Guardian Chimera Draw, and if you do, Destroy effect). There's also the OCG-specific ruling where it's legal to activate Dugares declaring Special Summoning from GY, even if there is no valid monster to Special Summon from the GY at the point the effect is activated. As long as another other effect you could declare on activation can legally be chosen. Thankfully this isn't in the TCG yet because it's insane.
Coder summoned more then 5 arguments about the ruling being weird. The opponent activates Nib, tributes Coder's brain.
It was the judges that got the biggest sigh of relief, and not players, when they finally banned this card in the OCG.
Makes complete sense to me. Children’s card game by the way.
Reject the Master Rule. Embrace the Duellist Kingdom.
Imo better than the "pokemon charts" lmao
@grimrapper5202 the pokemon Type Chart is a lot easier to Understand then the Entirety of yugioh
I love this game's complexity a lot ngl
Yeah, it's pretty straightforward, you blow up their field and summon nib, then you summon the token, before you summon the token for all purposes they don't have monsters so you cant summon a monster
The little terms in YGO like "and if you do", "when/if", etc. always frustrates me with this game.
I am like I KNOW ENGLISH. Except when it comes to Yugioh.
Unskilled player detected
@@cazzarinobolvacchio5698 yes bad game design means bad players get a grip little one
@@TheSirAshton90 I can perfectly navigate through these mechanics with no issues, this isn't a game for the illiterate
@@cazzarinobolvacchio5698could u have anymore of an ego 😄
The TCBOO rules (and the other, similar floodgates) are genuinely one of the most frustrating things about those cards to me. If I could tribute or link away an unhelpful monster, they would be infinitely more bearable to play with.
Imaginet surprise finding out I couldn't make mikailis with the only two sisters I had on board because they're spellcasters and it's a warrior :')
Like am I insane for believing that doesn't count
It's so annoying that floodgates can see the future.
@@Ice_Icemb It's not that they can see the future. It's more like they're proactively stopping you from taking actions that violate the restrictions they put in place. Too often you forget the order of Summoning a monster:
(1) Choosing what to summon
(2) Sending any required materials to the GY, or stacking them if Xyz Summoning
(3) Placing the monster on the field
TCBOO and similar floodgates restrict you at step (1), and so you have to do this step under those restrictions. For example, if you control a Dragon, you cannot choose a Dragon to summon under TCBOO since it would violate the card's effect.
Can't like off Raye under floodgates but can use Raye effect 🤡
@@cameraredeye3115 so they see the future by seeing what you are attempting to summon before you summon it.
The logic I'm seeing here is in the exact thing that Kaiser is preventing: while Kaiser Colosseum is applying, you cannot place a monster on the field if it would result in you controlling more monsters than your opponent. If the result is "0 and 1" then it doesn't care if 0 turns off Kaiser, it just sees "the opponent controls more monsters."
It's looking at an effect and asking "will this immediate action cause the opponent to control more monsters?" before it's turned off.
According to Master Duel, Continuous effects like that are also not applied anew while another effect resolves (such as Bagooska turning everything to defence), only between chain links.
How about when I removed this card from the field and then they summoned 4 monsters and reset this card and magically, I can only summon 1 monster still. Explain that
a reason for this might be that nibiru and kaiju slumber summons 2 cards to the field, 1 to your field and one to the opponents, Colosseum states that your opponent can't place monsters on the field if it exceeds the amount of monsters you control, thus nib and kaiju slumber summons 2 cards whilst the Colosseum controller will only have 1 monster on board.
thus trying to summon 2 when you can only summon 1.
the effect of Colosseum applies regardless to which field you summon.
TL:DR 2 summons > 1 monster on board
I doubt that is the case: at the end of the video Coder has three Salamangreat monsters on the field by his fifth summon, yet Nibiru cannot be activated, even though it is attempting to summon only two monsters, which is less than three.
Honestly, I don't get it
@@florinalinmarginean1135 Maybe it is because it is trying to increase the amount of monsters your oponent controls? What happens if you try to ojama trio your oponent that has kaiser up
@@florinalinmarginean1135 Essentially once active Colosseum check constantly and doesn't allow even for a moment to disrespect the equation (which is what nib would do).
It's a little counter intuitive but a lot of rules in yugioh are after all.
No, the nib has to do with how the effect applies, first you tribute everything and then you summon nib, and then you summon the token
@@LorisEnsatzukenIt's not counterintuitive at all because it depends upon resolution.
That is almost always what people are refusing to understand.
This is not MTG where you can have effects happen in the middle of resolution. The game state doesn't change until resolution so until whatever it is that you're trying to do resolved, Kaiser Coliseum wouldn't turn off.
And since it's not turned off, you can't resolve it and therefore can't activate it because you can't intentionally activate something that can't be resolved at activation.
There are multiple other rulings that perfectly explain why this doesn't work. It is 100% logically consistent with the rest of the game.
Fucking schrodinger Nibiru, tributing but checking the number of monster on field at the same time.
I'm guessing the reason it works that way is because of resolution rules.
If you can't legally resolve the entire effect at time of activation, then you can't activate it.
Like how lumina doesn't let you discard to summon a lightsworn from grave unless you already have a lightsworn in grave. You can't do it even if you're discarding a lightsworn for cost. There has to be lightsworn in grave at time of activation.
Same deal with TCBOO. It won't let you attempt the summon unless the summon can legally happen under the current game state. It doesn't realize that the summon being attempted removes the monster stopping the summon from being legal.
So for nibiru, it would be that gamestate doesn't let you attempt an effect that would summon a monster to your board at any point during the effect. It doesn't know or care that the first half of the effect clears the board.
Right; theoretically, nibiru *could* be rewritten to where the token summons later as a separate effect.
@@dragon-id5uj that wouldn't change anything.
The problem is that nibiru summons itself. The token is irrelevant.
It could be rewritten so that it clears the board and summons the token, and that's it for that effect. Then have a trigger effect as a separate effect that summons nibiru itself when a primal being token is on board.
That is what I was thinking, but I'm too dumb in yugioh rulings to say with confidence.
Not quite, when Nib is activated, it would be able to summon itself just fine because the opponent has more monsters, the issue is that it tributes all of the opponent's monsters before it summons itself, which should still let it be summoned because kaiser doesn't apply when the controller has no monsters, but kaiser colloseum doesn't check that it would be turned off when it's looking into the future (apparently).
@@qedsoku849No, they are 100% correct.
It's not looking into the future any more than any other card when performing its effect.
The problem is that, yes, it hasn't resolved. Kaiser Coliseum can't deactivate itself in the middle of resolving an effect.
You're expecting the effect of KC to immediately turn off, but it doesn't. No card does, that's not how the game works.
You can't resolve the effect of Nibiru without first resolving a card that would make it turn off, so you can't activate the effect.
Today I learned!!! That is something I did not even know at all! Thanks for show us that info Coder.
It brings tears to me eyes that Coder has brought us another ruling video. :)
10:06 "Surely you draw Nib, right? Because you're playing against Salamangreat. ... Yeah, you have Nib? Everytime, bro. Crazy."
Nibiru tributes and summons, he doesn't tribute then wait 5 seconds and summons
Same thing as TCBOO there's no "time" it takes for effects to resolve, it just happens
Nibiru tributes AND summons, and you can't summon
I can technically summon because at no point do i control more than my opponent does.
It's just badly ruled/programmed
@@sharktos3218 all right go to an official regional tournament in attempt to summon Nibiru underneath Kaiser while calling a judge over to confirm if your plate is legal, and make sure it’s recorded and that’s the name of the Regional you attend it is available
@@empireyouth5791 There are easier ways to show you don't understand shit, you don't have to comment here for that ;)
I thinn its because kaiser is a continuous which is the main differentiation between kaiju slumber. Kaiser checks when the effect is activated, and is continuous through resolution. Kaiser doesnt check the field again once the monsters are tributed, its stuck in its original state of how many monsters are on the field orginally at activation of nib
but it's like selectively checking. it isn't checking whether you have monsters on the board but it is checking if your opponent would have more after
@yuemaeve no its checking if your opponent is trying to Summon monster(s) which are more than are currently on the board, regardless of what has to happen to Summon said monster(s), including tributing. Essentially it counts the monsters now, and then it says well you're trying to Summon more monsters right now and you can't. It ignores the way you get there
@yuemaeve basically it forbids activating and effect to Summon if the amount of summoned monsters excess the ratio listed. What happens in between isn't of consequence
@@GeminiMoto Which it shouldn't because the summoning part of the card is under "If you do ~ Then" clauses of the card. There is no definite summoning yet until after the face-up cards are tributed, which should have disabled Kaiser Colosseum in the process.
@KenEvangelista it most definitely should regardless of the if then, you should re read what I said. You're *attempting* to Summon when you're not allowed to. That's why it won't let you activate. It's similar to cards that read "your opponent cannot activate effects that includes summoning a monster".
When coder mention that it seems like you can't tribute or replace any type monsters on the same type monster under "the only can be one" it really all make sense
Software engineer. I live and die by this level of pedantics
thought about it for a bit, and it may be because you're technically trying to summon an additional monster to your opponents side of the field, whoch is not allowed because it is a summon that would "exceed" the number of monsters your opponent already controls
But it checks your field, not the opponent's
But summoning a monster to your opponent's side of the board doesn't make the number of monsters on your side exceed the number of monsters on theirs.
Floodgates being clairvoyant is always insane to me
They see into the future of what you are able to summon, but also choose not to see into the future of any monsters leaving the board, super annoying.
@@qedsoku849 on the one hand it’s annoying but on the other hand it makes complete sense.
only the affect is seeing into the future
not the “condition”
So, here's how I'm taking this. You control Kaiser Colosseum and 1 monster, so Kaiser is live. Because it is live, it'll see that while resolving Nib, it'll put the opponent at more monsters on board, even though it would be zero monsters on your board at that time. Because it's mid-resolution, Kaiser doesn't turn off. It's the same thing with Kaiju Slumber. Even though Kaiju Slumber is simultaneous, it sees that you are trying to summon to your field while controlling the same number of monsters as your opponent.
I think the explanation is simply that “the effect” Is capable of seeing that you will clear the field and have zero monsters making Nibiru activation illegal.
But the condition of kaiser (requiring you to control at least one monster) doesn’t see The field will be cleared and so will allow the effect to still apply.
basically effects can see into the future but conditions can only see the now
I believe the logic is the line that states : his/her opponent cannot place a monster on the field if his/her number of monsters would exceed the number of monsters of this controller
At the time kaiser is on the field, and Nibiru would attempt to activate & then resolve, nibiru would tribute all monsters, player with Nibiru would then summon Nibiru from hand thus causing the player with Kaiser to have 0 monsters. My understanding comes from the language that would defend said ruling due to the placing of Nibiru causing the confliction with Kaiser
I believe the explanation at 4:38 would be the logic behind it
It is. It was the same rationale with IKS back in 2015 before KC got the banhammer in the TCG. You cannot attempt to summon a monster that could create a gamestate (no matter how temporary) that could attempt to cause the opponent to control more monsters than the player who controls KC.
I know these videos usually don't get as many views as some others, but these are my fav vids on your channel Everytime. This is why I originally started watching your content in the first place 😁
Nib is summoned before the token.
Right, but when Nib is summoned there are no cards on the opponents board meaning KC is off.
What he's getting at is that the rules of the game see ahead that you will have more monsters by summoning Nib. But it doesn't see that a board wipe is going to happen between the activation and resolution of Nib that should turn KC off. So it doesn't allow Nib to activate.
The Kaiju monsters from Kaiju Slumber are summoned after the board is wiped, but that card can't be activated under Kaiser Colosseum either.
@@Sipricy yeah but it's not a separate effect. It's a "then" but it's during the resolution of the one cards effect. I don't like it to be honest
@@perkocettsby games rules it happens all at the same time the board is never really empty
@@lucasalarcon3230 And it's why it lock them away. Kaiser check the future but doesn't update his activation condition until open game state. So during the effect the equation has the controller to 0 (even if for a brief moment) and that lock any possibility of summon.
Immediately the term “far sighted” comes to mind if we were to keyword. Recognizes you’re going to summon more guys, but not that you’d be clearing them first
It took me a second but it is as if your current monsters are in a final state, and a new monster, while replacing a monster, where you think it would make them void, constitutes as a new monster.
fun vid. love learning about odd interactions like this
very interesting, thanks for doing the research on this. didn't expect such a wild card to possibly exist that can work in this way.
I love master thesis breakdown of printed cardboard
It makes perfect sense to me. Nib summoning summons a token by mandatory effect.
Which you cant do because you would have one monster and your opponent would have 0
That actually doesn’t make it make sense, because Colosseum says, “When there is 1 or more monsters on the field of the controller of this card” meaning that when they don’t control a monster, the card does nothing.
It’s a pretty unintuitive ruling.
@@Kintaku but they never don't control anything while the effect is active. Cause the resolution of nib tributes. So before an open gamestate where Kaiser can check active/not active it shows active with you having 0 and your opponent can't play a monster to their field and then give you one because that would exceed the conditions.
But that condition is onlu active while the controller of KC has 1 or more monsters on their side of the field, if they go KC pass wjth no monsters, the Opp can summons as many monsters as they want @sinistrdairy2971
@@sinistrdairy2971 it doesn’t though. Idk if you’ve ever played again KC when your opponent controls no monsters, but it literally does nothing in that case.
It’s kind of like Secret Village when the opponent has no spellcasters. That’s why Coder was confused on the ruling, because if tributing read them as having 0 monsters, you should be able to summon.
But simultaneously, if you control nothing and they have monsters on field, it would also work because you would only be summoning one monster.
It’s at best confusing.
@@Kintaku you have to take it apart.
Kaiser is clairvoyant it knows that if nib effect were to resolve we would have 0 monsters and the opponent would summon a monster. Because we currently have monsters the effect saying they cannot do that is active. It doesn't matter at what point we control 0 the point is that during the resolution before nib is summoned we would have 0. And because 1 is greater than 0 it's not allowed. If nib tributed for cost it would be fine.
My understanding of the ruling is. It tributes all the opponents' monsters. It's 0:0, then you cannot Summon the Nib giving you 1:0 thusly breaking Kaiser's ruling
Like it doesn't turn off because the effect hasn't finished resolving yet?
@nerazim1110 nono, so Kaiser states your opponent can't summon more monsters than you control. Nib wipes the board and then summons itself, THEN summons the token. So if your opponent controls Kaiser Nib cannot be activated
Because Nib would have to be summoned under Kaiser WITH no monsters on your opponent board
@@SoraSeiichiVT that's literally what I meant. Kaiser does not turn off mid-resolution, and you control no monsters, so you can't summon nib. Therefore, you can't activate the effect
@nerazim1110 The way I interpreted your comment was like since the effect of Kaiser is still active why couldn't you Summon Nib since they would be considered simultaneous with the board wipe.
Of course it's a rulings nightmare that got this stupid thing banned again. The TCG couldn't handle something as simple as Kaiju interactions, it took the nuances of Nibiru's interactions with face-downs to make the OCG give up on allowing this thing, less than the fact that it's a Continuous Spell and thus is unsearchable by Pharonic Advent, making it sackier than the other floodgates.
Also giving Salamangreat Nib immunity explains why so many of them were using the blasted thing in those final moments, good to know.
Because tributing + summoning 2 monsters is a single effect. It is not like you tribute field for cost then summon 2 monsters for the effect.
Kaiser C checks that your card is trying to summon 2 monsters as part of its effect while they have only 1 monsters therefore it does not allow it.
But he couldn't used a nib when Coder had 3 monsters.
Kaiser prevents summoning more monsters than the controller of this card have, so just summoning 2 shouldn't be an issue
I might be wrong but is it not the ‘on the field ’ clause messing this up? Like coder controls 1 monster and nib would special summon 2 monsters on the field, so then that would end up being over 2, but if coder controlled 2+ monsters, maybe it would be fine?
Nvm I just got to the part of the vid that debunks what I said I’m so fucking confused
@@unoreyno129 But during the resolution of Nibiru, your opponent goes to 0 monsters, yet Kaiser Colosseum is not allowed to turn off until after Nibiru would finish resolving. This prevents you from resolving the whole effect of Nibiru, and so its activation is illegal under KC regardless of how many monsters your opponent has.
Ok, why do floodgates have the ability to look into the future game state?
Wouldn't there be less ruling issues involving floodgates if they're only able to observe the current game state?
In the case of Kaiser Colosseum, if it were not able to look into the future, it'd be even more obnoxious, because then it would have to turn off your opponent's ability to summon at all if they have an equal amount or more monsters on the field than you do. An effect like Kaiser can only conceivably work by looking into the future.
TCBOO, Rivalry, etc. cannot look into the future, despite what Coder says, and it is exactly because they cannot see the future that they are so frustrating. They simply make it so it is not legal to attempt the summon of a monster with a type/attribute that you do not control (or already control in the case of TCBOO). When you attempt to summon a monster, you pick the monster to summon first, then pick the appropriate materials to send to the GY, but those types of floodgates stop you at that first step. If those floodgates could look into the future, you'd actually be able to circumvent them much more easily, basically the same logic would apply as why you can still summon under Kaiser Colosseum when your opponent controls a monster, as long as you don't put more monsters on the field by using monsters you already control as material/tributes instead.
Kaiser Colosseum is just particularly weird because it only partially looks into the future, as explained in the video, which leads to this unintuitive ruling.
They look in the future they don't let you alter the game state and the effect check is on activation the gane doesn't check for continuos effects in the middle of effect resolution
@@JamesNintendoTurd thats BS, why did they even make these cards?!
So hold up, TCBOO and Rivalry just makes it so that any action you'd take of placing a monster of the same type/attribute an illegal action?
Let's say I only control 1 Wind Winged Beast monster on the field while TCBOO is up, why is it that I can't just tribute it or send to the GY to Summon another monster of the same type. Does it not imply that I can only control 1 monster of said type on the field, therefore would it not be logical thinking that I am able to Summon a monster of the same type as long as I remove that face-up monster on the field, since by the end of that Summon I'd still control 1 monster of that same type?
@@lucasalarcon3230 what?!
How's that even make sense?😵💫
@@nashcifer5666no because you already have one thus illegal, tribute summoning is not send one to GY then put one on field, it’s all one instance, so if you cant summon another monster of the same type on field due to restrictions then the same goes for tribute summoning
it sees the effect as a summoning method. so by its logic, it cannot let it go through.
last time I saw rulings this weird, was when I was made awae what Darkness Approaches did prior to Link monsters appearing - face-down Attack Position was one helluva rulings swamp for judges, and I am 100% sure the judge community gave max 10 seconds to think about FDA Link monsters and went "nah, get this scheisse out of here."
I think its kinda right the ruling because at least in MD is coded as a 3 step thing, step 1, tribute the entire field, step 2, summon nib, step 3 summon token, so kaiser checks before the second step and it becomes an illegal activation
The issue is due to the tense shift of kaiser colosseum. Kaiser's restriction is in the present. The opponent cannot activate an effect that WOULD exceed the monsters you have over the course of the effect (future).
So, for Kaiju slumber, because the field would be wiped and the opponent would have 0 cards, and you cannot complete the second step to special summon to your field over the card limit, which would be 0, then slumber cannot be acrivated.
In nibiru's case, because it would tribute the field, leaving your opponent with 0 monsters, it cannot complete it's simultaneous effect to special summon itself because it would be over the 0 limit, that xomes from after tributing for nibiru.
Kaiser's effect requirements only get applied after nibiru's or slumber's effect has resolved (like if you flip up a "DNA surgery" while "tcboo" is on the field and your opponent chains a special aummon to it). However, because of the word "would," it can look into the future to see if, during a card's activation and resolution, the monster reatriction would be violated at any point in the process.
So to summarize Kaiser Colosseum doesn't check its condition's fulfillment during resolution of an effect, therefore its effect would be active during resolution of an effect, and since the game checks for the legality of a play before activation it won't allow the activation.
This is kind of an absurd limit case.
Yet it also makes perfect sense. The game state must first allow the effect that's attempting to be activated to fully resolve before letting you commit to the play. KC doesn't allow that with Nibiru, so Nibiru cannot be used under KC.
*Breaking News*: Yu-Gi-Oh Ruling is Confusing and Unintuitive.
More at 11.
This would really tick me off if I did not learn this in this way. Having it brought to my attention like this, it makes enough sense that I am at peace
oh the joy of anecdotal evidence for rulings over coherent rules where every rule will affect all other rules to create intuitively understandable rules
ps.: i think the issue is that you try to put a monster on the opponents board while it disregards the removing of it so they have any number bigger than 0 you try to summon a monster to their field that means you try to summon a monster to A field so that it is more monsters than what your opponent has and the game says no you are not allowed to place monsters on the field if that means you increase the amount of A field to bigger than the opponents number. if this is true all effects that summon to the opponents field should be illegal under kaiser but i lack the technology to test this idea out
Im am no expert, but does it maybe have something to do with the opponent being the owner and you the controller of the card? In no other case i can see why the Kaiser is confused ^^
It also works that way with monarchs stormforth (with monarchs having been a meta deck at the time of the ban): you can't tribute over your opponent's only monster while you have no monsters.
Its similar to not being able to say use the only plant on your field to summon another plant under there can be only one, or monsters unaffected by traps being negated by skill drain.
Feels like a question during a masterduel proficiency exam
It's the same reason why you cannot tribute an opponents monster for your summon with monarchs stormforth. "You cannot leave your opponent with less monsters than you at the end of the summon/chainlink while kaiser is active on the field"
the same thing applies to There can be Only One, Rivalry of the Warlords and Gozen Match
you cant do it simultaneously
And this is the main reason why Konami OCG just banned Kaiser Colosseum in the lastest OCG banlist. This card is so popular in the OCG's Phantom Nightmare format.
The summon of Nibiru is simultaneous, but the token is not, so you would activate an effect that would give you 1 extra money while they control monsters, which is why you can't nib. "... And if you do, summon this card, THEN dining a token"
Interrupted Slumber vs Jowgen on the field is wild too. Counter intuitive that you cant even activate it even though you would wipe the field first.
Actually that makes sense because in order to complete the resolution of Interrupted Kaiju Slumber, you *_must_* do BOTH of the following:
(1) Destroy as many monsters on the field as possible
(2) Special Summon 2 Kaijus, 1 to each field
Jowgen prevents (2) from even being attempted until Kaiju Slumber finishes resolving, and thus Kaiju Slumber cannot be activated even though Jowgen would leave the field during the resolution. If you cannot complete the resolution of a card or effect under the current game state, then you cannot activate said card or effect.
i remember having a discussion so similar to this, when i hear that you cant nibiru under el shaddol winda
It's the same reason you can't try to banish a face-up Imperial Iron Wall. Even though it's part of the effect and not cost, you can't even try to do it even if the condition would be removed.
It's an order of operations thing. Nib tributes the entire field then summons itself, then it summons the token. So you can't nib under Kaiser's because of the brief window mid-activation where nib didn't summon the token yet
Seeing the ruling from Kaiser just hurts my brain even more.
I think Kaizer works like Gozen where you cannot attempt to activate even if a tribute would happen
Not quite. If Kaizer worked like Gozen you wouldn't be able to super poly 2 of your monsters and 1 of your opponents monsters in a gamestate where you both have 2 monsters but you can.
@@TwistedBOLT of course not exactly like gozen
Slumber is the outlier here, it has a speciffic ruling that makes its effect possible even if there are kaijus on the field. The niberu thing makes sense if you know that cards see the board state as " how it is" and not as "how it will be". This is the same reason why The Creator cant use its effect if you have a empty gy, sure there will be a monster in there from the discard, but at the effects activation there would not be a valid target.
Kaiser Colosseam: "If there is 1 or more monster(s) on the field of the controller of this card, his/her opponent cannot place a monster on the field if his/her number of monsters would exceed the number of monsters that are on the field of this card's controller. The cards that are already on the field before this card's activation are unaffected by this effect."
I think the logic behind it is something like this :
Colliseum first sentence that says "If you control 1 or more monsters" is a requirement for it's effect, and when any card that would destroy your monsters AND then summon monster(s) to their field, whether simultaneously or not, It'd be Illegal, because of Colliseum effect still linger, but if the summon hapen in different chain link, the Colliseum requirement already unfulfilled so it's now legal
Good to know that Kaiser is still as infuriating as ever, even almost a decade later.
I always like all you’re rulling videos
at first i was like "what is that a thing", then "oh it's simple, that makes sense" to "holdup this does not make sense" to " oooooooh this is cringe"
Conjunctions shouldn't determine activation legality in this case, so simultaneous or sequential is irrelevant.
Here is why I think it should be legal. While Player A controls Kaiser and at least 1 monster, and Player B controls 1 fewer monsters than them. Player B activating Nibiru is not attempting to place a monster on their field that would exceed the number of monsters Player A controls at that specific point in time. We can disregard the summon of the Token as its summon is indeterminate and not relevant to the actual ruling anyway.
Here's why it's not legal. Kaiser looks into the future, calculating the number of monsters Player A would control if Nibiru activated and tributed all possible monsters. Then, at the point just before Nibiru would be summoned simultaneously, it's checking if Player B is attempting to put more monsters on the board than Player A controls at that point in time. If it returns YES - which is often the case, as Nibiru tributes all of Player A's monsters so they control 0, so placing 1 monster (Nibiru) is greater than 0 - it comes back to the present and says "STOP! You are attempting to perform an illegal action based on the possible future I have predicted!" This is why Player B cannot legally activate Nibiru. It reminds me of that Tom Cruise film, Minority Report, where they arrest people for crimes they will commit in the future. Kaiser Colosseum is basically a Precognitive with the Precrime unit and anybody trying to activate Nibiru is the future criminal.
This just leaves the question of why Kaiser Colosseum doesn't recognize its own effect would not technically be applying at that very brief moment in time between when Player A would control 0 monsters after they are all Tributed by Nibiru and the simultaneous Summon of Nibiru. But maybe Continuous effects cannot stop applying for such brief a moment in time? Or maybe it's because this ruling is super arbitrary and they didn't think of that when ruling it.
Regardless, it's a crazy ruling. Nothing should be looking into the future to predict gamestates like this. It's an awful basis for a ruling, one that has no precedent in any other ruling.
Great wording. However by that logic it should recognize that it's turned "off" when Nib attempts to summon the Token allowing the activation in the first place, since it 'understands' its owner would have 0 monsters in order to do the comparison. I gave up on this years ago.
Kaiser Colosseum cannot "turn off" while Nibiru is resolving, since ALL of the following count as one effect:
(1) Tribute as many face-up monsters on the field as possible
(2) Special Summon Nibiru (happens simultaneously as (1))
(3) Special Summon a Token to the opponent's field
While all of this is happening, Kaiser Colosseum (and similar floodgates) is live regardless of how many monsters are in play at once. You're effectively attempting to put a monster in play while, for a brief moment, your opponent will have 0. Because Kaiser Colosseum is still active at this time, it's recognizing that you cannot put a Token in play to complete the resolution of Nibiru -- thus making the activation of Nibiru illegal under KC.
@@cameraredeye3115 Kaiser is still using a future point in time to determine if the activation of Nibiru is legal, so logically, it should also be able to use that point in time to determine if its own effect would be applying. It's like the Earthbound Immortal ruling when you activate a Field Spell while one is already controlled. They destroy themselves before the activation of the new Field Spell resolves because in that briefest moment in time, you don't control a Field Spell. The summon of the Token is also irrelevant to the ruling. It's checking the number of cards each player would control and be attempting to summon, at the point in time after all possible monsters are tributed and just before Nibiru would be summoned simultaneously (it already shouldn't be doing this because these things are simultaneous, but it is). So if Nibiru tributes all monsters, Kaiser's controller controls 0 monsters, Nibiru's activator is now attempting to place 1 monster on the field. 1 is greater than 0, therefore the activation is illegal in the present time. The summon of the Token doesn't factor into the ruling because the illegal action occurs before that point of the effect even gets to resolve.
@@monkfishy6348 And that is exactly why Nibiru's activation is illegal under KC. Same ruling goes for Interrupted Kaiju Slumber, since it's basically the same effect.
It's because of one "key word" in the card text of Kaiser Colosseum, that no one seems to get, lol.
The guys that programmed the game are fucking geniuses
Someone had to code this in...wonder if that person was also mind blown that it worked that way
Yo... this music is super Mario sunshine! Wtf that's 🔥
The only thing I can think of this is how chains work, the chain of activation of nibiru would require u to tribute the enemy whole field however during this said chain kaiser colosseum effect still lingers bcuz it only deactivates after the whole chain's resolution hence not being able to activate
This is the content i miss from you coder. Cool shit to see
Maybe it has to do with the fact that those effects want to summon more than 1 monster, as colosseum doesn't say you can't mure on your side, it says you can't put more on the field.
The thing about Kaiser Colosseum and similar cards is, they can't update their effects until it's an open game state. While Nibiru is resolving, your opponent goes to 0 face-up monsters on the field, but KC doesn't turn off despite its condition no longer being met. Thus it interprets the board state as "you cannot place any monsters on the field" which prevents Nibiru from completely resolving. So resolution rules dictate that Nibiru and similar cards (like Interrupted Kaiju Slumber) cannot be used under KC.
It makes sense do to winda .
You can’t nib me while I have that monster on the field .
Nib effects is all one sentence that’s why.
It's because the effect of Nibiru has to tribute, then summon itself then summon the token to your opponent's board, and then you'd be summoning 2 monsters (1 to your opponent's field) which you cannot do under Kaiser with 1 monster already present on the board. You cannot attempt to summon the token after the nib hits the board, and since they both most summon as part of Nib's effect, you cannot nib at all
It makes a lot more sense if you consider the tribute and the summon as one simultaneous action, since one causes the other to happen. If they have 5 monsters and you have 0, then summoning nibiru would make their monsters go from 5 -> 0 and yours from 0 -> 1 at the same time, therefore that action would not be allowed. There isn't an in-between step to get their monsters to 0 to invalidate the effect.
I want a whole series testing weird obscure or interesting rulings or interactions something like a Yugi oh myth busters
This interaction makes perfect sense.
Kaiser is unable to look ahead and see the end result of an effect like Nibiru.
Because of the 'And if you do' clause in Nibiru's effect, Kaiser only has the ability to see that Nibiru will summon a guy onto your board (assuming you control Kaiser). Once it sees that, Kaiser can't look any further and prevents Nibiru from activating.
It doesn't make sense because in that case, Interrupted Kaiju Slumber would destroy all monster on the field THEN try to summon 1 kaiju in each side of the field. Given that when the then apply the board is cleared KC should not activate and let the special summon pass. Instead KC just go f u and won't let you activate Interrupted Kaiju Slumber. Nibiru is iffy because normaly it tribute everything and summon itself at the same time, the spell does not.
"Destroy as many monsters on the field as possible, then Special Summon in Attack Position, 2 "Kaiju" monsters with different names from your Deck (1 on each side), but they cannot change their battle positions, and must attack, if able. During your Main Phase, except the turn this card was sent to the GY: You can banish this card from your GY; add 1 "Kaiju" monster from your Deck to your hand. You can only activate 1 "Interrupted Kaiju Slumber" per turn."
Anyway, "there can be only one" and other terrible floodgate should be banned and never see the light of a duel anyway or be severly errated like brain control or chaos emperor dragon.
The problem comes from Kaiser Colosseum. That card has Prohibition-like card text, so you cannot do a lot of things that you should be able to do just because something in the text would change the number of monsters in a way that breaks Colosseum.
Distant coder ruling video? I must've traveled back to 2022
So THIS is why Kaiba pushed for Duel Academies...
- Opp. field has "Kaiser Colloseum" active
- Your Nibiru activates, wipe opp. board.
- Your opp. has 0 monsters, thus Kaiser doesn't resolve.
- Nibiru summons FIRST in your field.
- THEN, a token is summoned on his field
- Token's treated as a monster, triggering Kaiser eff.
No other monster in your field cannot be summoned UNLESS your opp. has 0 monsters or just pop it.
I wish MD had a more malleable way to test things like this. I want a training mode.
FYI if El Shaddoll Winda is face up Nibiru cannot be activated. As Nibiru attempts to do two special summons but Winda says each player is allowed one (after she is summoned).
It’s because full effect of nib has to be legal… with 1 monster on both sides it has to be able to legally summon itself
Because of the and if clause it does the check after each monster is tributed so once first monster is removed kaiser checks count. Then 2nd card removed kaiser checks. So once it reaches the state that your opponent has one card nib does its check if it can be summoned then kiaser blocks it so nib does not meet its conditions.
The fact that this is a thing these floodgates could do is hysterical and im glad they're basically dead in the water in the tcg now.
So this is why they banned kaiser. I never saw anyone play this card even before the ban.
I miss your ruling vids more of this please.
Some rulings simply don't make sense... another one is TTT "Stealing" effect chained by a "On Summon" effect from the opponent.
Did this interaction actually get a ruling yet or does it still warp your game into the rulings void?
The OCG (and MD by extension) now rule it as "The new controller of the monster can activate the effect as if it was their monster". I think it makes sense. The monster is on YOUR field, so YOU can use the effect
@@nerazim1110 yeah... before that in the OCG it was the player who summoned the monster, even when he has no longer control of it, can activate the effect. in the TCG it came down to the Judge deciding how it plays out.
My friend asked me this few days ago, and it also make confused af
Thanks for testing it coder
Nibiru is attempting to create a situation where you will control more monsters than your opponent, because Nib hits your board first, THEN it summons a monster on your opponent's board. Even though it's a single effect, it is attempting to create a gamestate which an active card effect says cannot happen (i.e., opponent has KC, so you cannot perform an effect that would a. summon a monster and b. cause you to have more monsters than your opponent). If it summoned the token first, it *would* be legal.
The reason is interesting and has to do with how effects work and apply mid chain and are resolved by the game.
Because kaiser coloseum is applying due to you having a monster on the field, it doesnt get turned off mid resolution. So if nib would attempt to activate, it would clear the field then attempt to summon itself to the opponents field, making them place 1 monster on tue field wilhich is more than you would control (which would be zero) thus making the activation of nib (or slumber) an illegal activation when under kaiser coloseum.
Its the same interaction as sangen summoning (tenpai field spell) and fiendsmith desirei's negate, where desirei tries to negate both sangen summoning and the effect of an on field tenpai monster at the same time. The tenpai monster will still resolve because during resolution sangen summoning is still applying its protection (this doesnt get turned off mid resolution, same as kaiser v nib/slumber).
the intial check for effect activation is given at the moment nibs effect starts. the effect itself doesnt care what happens in the meantime, it only cares about the final result in the moment of summoning, which means:
Short: In the Moment of Nib entering the Field it is the only creature card on the field, meaning, if active, kaisers doesn't allow this to happen.
bit more Detailed: the activation condition for kaisers (as a permanent) is met at the Moment Nib would be activated and since its all happening in one go/effect (besides the token, which is summoned after nib) and kaisers doesn't directly state anything of deactivation and instead only talks about condition and final result and is a preventive effect, the step between in niburus effect doesn't deactivate it, which keeps it effective for the entire effect and prevents nibiru from being summoned on a 0 creature board or generally any board that would result in you having more creatures in that very moment. actually i think its just a smart move to bring kaisers to counter nib and thats it, the ruling is more like a clearification to stop disputes. also a reprint of nib that summons the token first would fix this, ironically.
ruling nightmares like this could be easily prevented with a simple ruling stating: effects of same (summon, both players draw): are simultaneous, all other effects are considered sequential
Honestly, being a YGO Rule Lawyer should be a job, that demands a degree to understand
I thought Kaiju Slumber while your opponent controls a kaiju was explicitly an exception because Konami said so
My immediate next thought is if this also applies to Lava Golem and Sphere Mode.
My guess is that because the board is empty your opponent can't have the niburu token before niburu is placed on the board
Thank you for explaining!
Nibiru mentions you must tribute at least 1 face up monster, but Kaiser blocks the tribute. In simple terms, imagine Nibiru success tribute monster and special summon, at that time, the Kaiser player owns zero monster on the field, while Nibiru player owns 2 monsters (nibiru and token).
Maybe Nibiru is using effect to summon, while Kaiju is summon conditions, because I remember Barrone able to negate Nibiru but not Kaiju.
I feel like it's because of the order of the summons by the effects of both nib and slumber since the order of the summons happens in the order of the person who activated the effects would summon first, and since the controller of kaiser would no longer have monsters at the resolution of the nib/slumber wouldn't have a monster, then that would result in the opponent having a monster before the controller of kaiser would have a monster. Idk exactly the logic behind it, but this would be my guess.
It reminds me of not being able to tribute summon under Kaiser Colosseum
What if this is more so a programming error in the game rather then an official rule.
Its in the ocg database