Interview with the grievance studies hoaxers
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- Опубліковано 10 січ 2019
- In the second week of January (2019) I spoke with Dr. Peter Boghossian, Dr. James Lindsay, and Helen Pluckrose, authors of the infamous “Grievance studies” hoax papers. We discussed their motivations and the consequences of their actions.
Portland State University is currently taking disciplinary actions against Dr. Boghossian, having found him guilty of academic misconduct for failing to have PSU’s Institutional Review Board approve his "studies" before they were conducted (!)
Draw your own conclusions...
Google Drive containing all the papers and reviewer comments: bit.ly/2OsWnnH
Mike Nayna's ongoing UA-cam series documenting the Grievance Studies Affair: bit.ly/2TBnICS
An account of the disciplinary proceedings against Dr Boghossian: bit.ly/2GWEISL
A number of influential scholars have written letters of support for Dr. Boghossian. I plan to read these in an upcoming video/podcast.
Additional links relevant to Dr. Peterson's work:
Website: jordanbpeterson.com/
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Books:
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Podcast: jordanbpeterson.com/podcast/
Reading List: jordanbpeterson.com/2017/10/g...
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These people are American heroes. Even the British one.
oh hello Think Club. Fancy finding you here.
what about the Canadian one?
@@themadmachinist8637 Thanks for the reminder.
@@joshuazemar9319 That's very kind but the truth is that the USA is trying to stop this nonsense. The UK is currently a police state and unsavable. It's very sad and I've left. Yes I'm English.
I'm not convinced, Ben. For us to be a police state, our police would have to be something more than merely useless.
MAKE ORWELL FICTION AGAIN
B-Radical Productions: 10 points! I'm tempted to write that on my other yellow vest.
That's an awesome quote!
B-Radical Productions I’ve put that hat on my Amazon wish list.
MOFA!
This is a brilliant post
“A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, only in expressing opinions.”
-Proverbs 18:2
Oh damn thats me, I gotta do some more meditation lol
@@lukeanderson6046 yeah man. stay quiet unless what you're saying comes from you. i got that from Peterson and from Kierkegaard
@@maxonmendel5757 I keep going hey you know this obscure fact I spent 2 minutes learning about also im and expert here's my awesome opinion!
@@maxonmendel5757 Did *bruh momentum* charge you for reading his comment? Why complain? Just don't read the UA-cam comments. The comment section does not say philosophers only. It is for anyone who wants to to comment on the video they just watched.
Sooo I wonder if I should choose a different screen name?🤔🤔🤔
Well, this is more pertinent now than ever.
Agreed. People in large US cities are living in Grievance Studies gone wild.
I really wish more people would watch it. My liberal friends won’t even engage in this sort of deep dive.
chimayinasniffer
The three researchers are liberal too. Ironic
Agreed
The silent majority seems to be very real. The loudest people now seem to be the least informed. I believe optimistically that they are a minority. This is definitely pertinent right now.
This satire project/ academic critique is one of the most valuable contributions to Western academia in many years. I hope the personal costs will not be too high. This deserves the utmost respect.
ralf m Not really. This was a political entertainment project and not scientific work, it didn’t follow the scientific method.
It doesn't need to follow scientific method. It's power is in exposing the path social sciences are going and provides academia the mirror it needs to rectify their wholly unacademic/disingenuous approach that is laced with ideology. This is for all the quality work that has preceded and is in danger of being devalued.
ralf m If it’s not scientific, nothing was proven, friendo. For instance, how do you draw the conclusion that “grievance studies” journals will only publish progressive stuff if you never attempted submitting conservative stuff? And why do they single out “grievance studies” when you can defraud peers in any area?
By having their work accepted and even published, they've proven everything there needs to be proven. Anyone who is sincere and neutral in observation will concur that things have been going awry for a while now. I've been a green voter for 30 years, so if anything I lean towards supporting leftist agenda, but misusing academic research to support an agenda, is plain wrong.
As to your specific point: try that with engineering and come back to me. The whole concept of grievance studies is not the advance of knowledge, but the academic support of a particular agenda which invariably undermines the search for truth.
How can you possibly find the path towards truth if you've already determined the road you're taking?
@@theespatier4456
Something tells me you have a personal animus against Boghossian et al as a result your own ideological alignments. :) You have seemingly trolled every thread on this comment section which supported what they did. You've derided the study as non-scientific, sealioned with a bunch of inane questions, and defended all of these noxious "academic disciplines" as if you had skin in the game.
Moreover, you are wrong. The study done by Boghossian et al followed the criteria of the scientific method (albeit loosely). They formulated a hypotheses (via induction) based on observations; conducted experimental and measurement-based testing of deductions drawn from the hypotheses; and refined (or eliminated) elements of their hypotheses based on the experimental findings.
I just sent an email to the PSU admin a few hours ago pleading with them to reverse their stance on this. I have a BA in sociology and value of that degree has been plummeting ever since intersectionality started infecting the humanities a few years ago. This regressive and resentful ideology must be exposed, confronted, and stopped.
I feel bad for my old Sociology tutor: she's big on critical thinking and taught us for every 'pro' we found in a theory, we had to come up with a 'con' (this included feminist theory!)
She explained the wage gap disparities and told us to never go by feelings and to stick to logic: I hope she's managed to retire by now or isn't being made to teach nonsense for the sake of political expediency.
That's a great idea actually! It's analogous to inflation of the currency by printing more money. Is there an organised group of people who are affected similarly to you? If not there should be.
@@francescop1 I think it might be closer to a particular currency (in this case, sociology degrees) being used primarily for terroristic acts
@@TheChugg11 What exactly is the pro in feminist theory? That it enables you to manipulate culture in a way that gives you power?
@Username [Redacted] When I studied sociology (from 2005-09), I was fortunate enough to have professors who sought to educate rather than indoctrinate. Concepts like white privilege and mordern patriarchy where certainly brought up, but they were taught as being a potential way of viewing things rather than as fact. Intersectionality in particular was explained by my profs as being a fringe, radical theory that none of them expected would pick up steam due to it's inherently divisive nature and similarity to Marxism. It has been shocking and terrifying for me to see such a concept become so dominant so quickly.
"I don't want to talk to you, I want to hurt you."
The hardest part of this cultural struggle is having to constantly be the lone, civilized adult in the room.
It reminds me of the struggles and courage of people like Rosy Parks, in a few years those people doing the harassing will be so ashamed of themselves.
As God told humanity time and time again: "I've heard your suffering, now go suffer"
We have to take these opportunities to show, not tell, people the best in us through understanding, even though they're stupid, blind children playing with ideological hand grenades.
I wish it was just a room , in Canada the masses are falling in line . Going to be a long hard fought verbal battle to get back to reality . The crusades of past civilization seem to be forgotten cross my fingers we don't get there
Is that what a troll does?
What does trolling mean?
The honesty is out of character, but the Left fascist sentiment is entirely expected.
In any case, they understand the situation. This isn't a scientific debate. We're being conquered. It's to the death.
"These things don't stay in the universities."
No kidding.
March 2021. Yep
Yes they're all in middle management now destroying with wilful ignorance
Dr Peterson is looking more a more like a wise wizard every day .
The day he strokes his whispy chin pubes into a fine point live on TV, will be a fine day.
He embodies the archetype of Gandalf and Rafiki, he is calling thousands of young guys to take on the hero's journey
In other words The Wise Old Man archetype
he almost looks like mr lahey from tpb
Don’t say the W-word too loudly. Owen Benjamin might be listening...
It wasn't satire. It was an experiment. And where the ACTUAL experiment is concerned, they falsified no data. The data for the actual experiment was a measurement of how many journals would publish blatantly absurd research.
This is THE point. This was data accumulation, not data analysis.
That still doesn't make it not satire. It uses real life as the pallet. Performance art satire. They did it with a sense of humour and the intent to expose. Doesn't really matter how we categorize it though. It just depends how you interpret reality. Sometimes all of the news reads as satire.
The fabricated data on some papers, but not others that got published. They still hit their objective out if the park, the Journals only cared about a “correct narrative” being published , not rigorous academic study.
@@JamesM99 .........academia's way of trying to cover being caught with their pants down, totally exposes the folly of group think(consensus) not based on actual data.
@@Fry1077 Using chapter 14 of Mein Kampf with "white male" put in place of "Jew" and getting awarded for it makes the point of the absurdity of the academic position of fact vs agenda.
Wow. Just wow. Academics get a rap for being cowards, and many of them are. However these three amazing people had the courage of their convictions and stood up for what they thought was right - and produced the evidence to show what a complete academic sham 'critical theory' really is in its current guise. Peter Bhogassian, James Lindsey and Helen Pluckrose: you represent all that is good about what academia should represent - the search for truth, and outing anyone who seeks to corrupt that standard.
Well, not EVERYTHING. None of the 3 knows diddly squat about STEM disciplines.
Harry Mills James Lindsay has a degree in physics and a phd in math!?!
@@harrymills2770 Ummmm, one of them has a PhD in Mathematics. #fail
A nation that makes too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools.
An educated warrior did his research and found the words above to be ancient and likely discovered/observed in multiple disconnected societies and eras. That educated warrior labels such a thing as a universal ancient truth.
@@harrymills2770 What - one has a doctorate in Mathematics.
The fact that these guys still laugh so deeply after the blowback shows how awesome they are.
I mean, the papers they wrote are so much of a joke it's hard not to laugh at them
Exactly!! Great point
Stop calling it ''Social Justice", start calling it "Social Revenge"...
Perfect.
Such an original comment from the video.
Or, you could call it what it used to be before reactionaries started trashing the concept: civil rights.
@@MRayner59 uncivil injustice
@@MRayner59 Rights and social justice are mutually exclusive. That is not "the concept"
Highly respect Helen Pluckrose. We chatted once and her perspectives on everything are refreshing and incisive.
Yeah, I was familiar with Peterson and Boghossian, but she was really sharp too.
Pluckrose's summation of post-modernism as "unapologetically irrational" is spot on. Post-truth is complete nonsense.
I would donate to JBP if I knew all my money was going to a microphone
Omg lol
Hahahahahahahaha
Room acoustic treatment, mic placement. Not so much the mic itself.
@@alan2a1l Tech up your room!
send him one :D
Edit: also he is in tour now so maybe he used what he had.
"What do we do about it?"
"That's another podcast."
I, for one, will definitely be looking forward to it.
Colleges should exposed by inviting the parents that pay for this “education” by holding a reading of this project ON each campus that behave this way , then perhaps they will lose enrollment until the behavior changes , this could actually bring tuition down as well colleges have gotten out of hand
Excellent. I laughed my ass off when these guys first revealed themselves, and now I am even more impressed with them. And Dr. Boghossian deserves our support during his battle with PSU.
MAN.... INSTANT heroes!!!!!! Dr. Peter Boghossian, Dr. James Lindsay, and Helen Pluckrose....
I'm in total awe of you guys..... thanks JP for highlighting these incredible people!!!!! Breath-taking!!!!!
Get well, Jordan. Be well. Jordan. We miss your voice.
I kept expecting them to talk about peer review and its inability to catch sub-standard papers. I wanted to hear about how these daft papers got through that system.
If you accept the whole postmodern "subjective truth", "lived experience" etc then the whole point of peer review and academic quality is basically negated (I suspect that the concept of "academic quality" is probably a "partiarchal white imperialist power claim" anyway).
@@jrd33 fun fact, "lived experiences" is a term that was appropriated by social justice activists.
It is in fact a very real, legitimate branch of research, wherein the researcher will identify commonalities among a group, and note similar patterns over a period of time. It's used to get more specific than normal statistics. For instance, I first heard of it from Karlyn Borysenko, a psychologist whose focus is on building and maintaining strong groups within businesses, and who used such techniques to better understand particular jobs or workplaces, and the "lived experiences" of those in said fields.
Just another thing social justice is trying to ruin, lol
Omg it’s Lloyd
Thats exactly what i was thinking. Its a serious problem and not many people are talking about it. Its a shame how politics can seemingly skew reality
Peer review is not intended to "catch" substandard papers. It is intended to "catch" papers that are not prepared according to the required methods. Otherwise, what to publish is an editorial decision.
I hope Dr. Boghossian has the support he needs to see him through this difficult time. Any University with a commitment to moral and ethical virtue would be lucky to have him and their students would benefit greatly from his wisdom.
Portland State Univ. professor to face discipline for exposing shoddy scholarship
www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/jan/7/peter-boghossian-portland-state-univ-professor-fac/
@@hkusno99 So sad...I wish him well
Nowadays universities are either left leaning (ex: UCB) or are extremely right leaning (ex:Liberty U). More polarization by the day:(
I love how the authors themselves can't help laughing when they describe the dog park paper.
"Specifically,
and in order of priority, I examine the following questions:
(1) How do human companions manage, contribute, and
respond to violence in dogs? (2) What issues surround queer
performativity and human reaction to homosexual sex
between and among dogs? and (3) Do dogs suffer oppression
based upon (perceived) gender? It concludes by applying
Black feminist criminology categories through which my
observations can be understood and by inferring from lessons
relevant to human and dog interactions to suggest practical
applications that disrupts hegemonic masculinities and
improves access to emancipatory spaces."
AMAZING
RobT Well, they wrote it... so these people are literally laughing at their own jokes, you know.
Check out the "Pal" Review when it comes to shoddy data analysis in global warming papers. They have created a wall in that field, if you are pro global warming then just about any paper passes their "pal" review. If you have a paper that disagrees with their narrative they send you around and around for make believe reasons why you need to rewrite your paper and resubmit (never ending). Just check out some of their emails in the "Climate Gate emails". Complaining about people asking for their data, saying don't give him the data he will just find something wrong with it (aka how science is supposed to work). They flip data when it doesn't go the direction they want, they cut off data post 1960 when the data goes down and they want data that goes up to create a hockey stick.
That field is absurd.
@@blankhank2850 Andrew Montford`s `The Hockey Stick Illusion" should be mandatory reading for every science student.
I applaud these guys for their courage! This needs to be shared much more widely.
As someone immersed in academia, and very much so the social sciences (disaster science to be specific), hearing these scholars discuss their work and the subsequent response is important as we continue to produce valid and ethical knowledge. While the IRB and peer review processes have a vital purpose in research, we also must continue to have clear and honest dialogue about the ideologically produced problems in the research and publication processes.
disaster science? The heck is that? I've studied political science and never heard of it
word salad from a twat...
Exactly!!!
"I don't want to talk, I want to hurt you." Standards of modern academic discourse.
I'm still surprised that behavior hasn't left more of those people dead after running into a CCW holder. Getting assaulted in a public bathroom by a guy going "all I want is to hurt you" is borderline stand-your-ground territory...
Grievance studies? You mean REVENGE POLITICS
I never thought of it like that. Well said mate. ☺
Yeah, of course its another euphemism. How Orwellian haha
24:00 ;-)
Never gonna give you up
@@probablyjustme77
Wyatt Earp - What does Johnny Ringo want ?
Doc Holiday - Revenge.
Wyatt - Revenge for what ?
Doc - For being born.
I am overwhelmed by the sheer positive good faith and cooperation between intellectuals.
I'm seriously worried about the university as a cultural institution for knowledge production, and the mental aptitude of the students it will be producing. The future looks grim when you can have a whole generation of 'graduates' leaving university with a substandard ability to react/formulate an argument against ideological criticism, who are additionally mentally weak and indoctrinated into dangerous dogmas. Some of the content which is being taught on these 'grievance studies' course is simply factually incorrect, yet happily taught by lecturers who or either willfully ignorant or essentially don't care and are more concerned with pushing an agenda. What a recipe for disaster!
Beautifully said. Absolutely spot on.
It is worse than you think. Even the hard sciences are corrupt. A graduate student at a prestigious university told me that the majority of studies have conclusions that are the opposite of what the data show, and these are "peer reviewed" studies. Universities get a lot of money to test the safety of various substances, the safety and efficacy of drugs, GMO's etc. The people paying for the studies stand to gain or lose depending on the results, and the universities get money to say what the companies want to hear. How the editors of the "peer review" journals maintain their positions we can only guess. No wonder that ad campaigns for the new miracle drugs are followed shortly by ads for attorneys conducting class action lawsuits because of catastrophic side effects.
These grievances and victimhood have been inculcated into the last couple of generations in order to cause rifts in society. Its the divide and conquer method and seems to be working well - unfortunately
I'm not a shill,but people need to be ready to donate and support boghossian, depending on what happens to him. We have to provide some kind of shield from this power hungry madness
Someone needs to start a godundme so he can pay for good lawyers and maybe counter sue. Have it backfire on the school and get these leftists out of power.
Patrick Brogan I would like to donate at least $5 monthly
Has the GoFundMe started? I want to donate
To my understanding, Boghossian still has a job. I don’t think the IRB wanted to fire him. They said they wanted to review the rules with him, didn’t they? I don’t think it’s crazy to think the IRB was just doing their job.
It seems possible the IRB didn’t want to talk because Boghossian has a different political stance, but because they had some legitimate questions for him with the papers he submitted. Didn’t he at least flirt a little bit with the rules? Isn’t this a sign of a system that is at least somewhat rigorous?
+1
Very very very good interview. Helen also did a very good job in particular with the disambiguation of how postmodern doctrine and all its variances have become politicized over the past few decades. Thank you Peterson for another exceptional video.
Would really love to hear an extended talk between Helen and JBP on postmodernism, she seems to have a different and interesting perspective that they only slightly touched upon
It was G.K. Chesterton who said: “When men choose not to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing in anything .”
False. Not believing in god does not mean you believe in nothing.
@@santifresnel2320
That's basically what Cheterton says.
SF][- FRES Try it.
SF][- FRES You’ll believe anything.
@@santifresnel2320 It seems Chesterton is saying that nothing is exactly what they DON'T believe. Not believing in God just makes people susceptible to believing ANY ideas, even really crazy ones. So actually--True. Not believing in God does not mean you believe in nothing.
“Once you’ve disintegrated and dismantled absolutely everything and it’s all in a mess on the floor, you have got nowhere to go with this.” Best description of postmodernism I have ever heard. Hats off to Helen Pluckrose! Brilliant.
19:30
They should mock and sue anyone that tries to punish these geniuses. Proving that there are flaws within "The System" should be a lock for a Nobel Prize. Also, Dr. Peterson's knowledge is terrifying!
hertzer2000 Really? Critics of these hoaxsters are already having to censor their names... and who’s complaining, again?
The Espatier who are censoring their names? Examples?
Well at least the ignoble prize. This is exactly the the type of papers they look for, ones that firstly make us laugh and then make us think.
I've been playing smashbros(a video game) competitively for 3 years and I haven't even touched the skill level of some of my local best players. Keep in mind they are proportionate to .01 of what it takes to beat the best. As I've grown in that and in philosophical meta's, I've learned it's a deep hole and acknowledging your ignorance is indeed a difficult task (regardless of how much you try). I think of these scholars as the best. So listen carefully. Cause you don't compare.. but it makes me think that some group of kids who think their good at some game got together to oppose the true fact that they don't have the power to beat the best. But the culture from that regardless is developing false power in numbers. It's not you, it's your competence.
Dumbledore, Harry, Ron, and Hermione
Hermione went sjw though
@@keto3883 Hermione is a fictional character.
Robert Tulley really? I thought she was a real person and Harry Potter was a documentary🤔
Hello. This relates in no way to your comment. It's your name that caught my eye. My maiden name is Tulley and here in Canada, you just don't find the name spelled with the "e"
I suppose I'm wondering if we might be distantly related, given how uncommon that spelling is.
- "I can't believe we are having this conversation"
- **breaks out in laughter**
I'm so thrilled to see someone of mathematical and physical sciences background become involved in these discussions. I'm currently studying physics but I'm obsessed with this debate and psychoanalysis. It's so relieving to know these doors aren't closed to me because I'm not studying history or psychology.
Helen Plucklose is great. The build about the 80’s reconstruction of applied post modernism fusing with political activism is an excellent brick in the wall of the overall picture and how we got here.
They’re all great btw - great interview and exploration of one of the big ideas JP has pioneered around what the deuce is going on
I wouldn't mind if he did a another separate interview with Pluckrose.
Can Helen and her colleagues organize this idea and write it as a paper? I would love to read this!
Nik Hierro the
I have your book. I bought it when it was first printed. I was recently diagnosed as Bipolar I and during a manic episode I bought your book. I love it and I don’t regret my buy. Thank you for being there for so many people!
I am bipolar and found Jordan's lectures and his book during a deep depression and they have helped me more than I could ever say. I'm so glad you found clarity in your mania. Good luck to you!!
:)
"Academia is self-selecting for cowardice."
YES. A THOUSAND TIMES, YES!!!
(The same could be said of corporations, btw.)
EDIT: JP literally makes the corporations point a sentence after I typed this, buahahaha.
This is true of academia in the US (and perhaps Canada and the UK). Thankfully, many seats of higher learning and sites for academic discourse in Western Europe have not become infected by this. Hopefully, this kind of ideology will never be able to flourish in countries like France, Germany and the Netherlands.
@@summernoelle7769 Actually, it's in the process of infecting Europe. Hungary and Romania banned grievance studies on State universities for a reason. Germany introduce a "third gender" option for official records. Austria and the ECHR fined an Austrian citizen for saying that Muhammad was a pedophile according to today's standards. The EU appointed ten crazy feminist cat ladies to a body called GREVIO to make sure the Istanbul Convention is implemented in the EU (the IC introduces gender and self-identification). And these are just off the top of my head.
That can work for many years, but the safe path is a sure path to eventual self-destruction.
@@nikolaneberemed That's why now Poland is fighting it back.
Summer Noelle I’m afraid the tendrils of communism has reached the entire western world. It’s taking off in the US and moving fast, but it is absolutely on its way to other countries in the west.
Just like folks in the US said that’ll never make it out of the universities and just laughed at how ridiculous it was....here we are in August of 2020.
I love that Ms. Pluckrose had the integrity to point out that she only had an MA.
She took up the offer to do the PHD, medieval womans studies tuff to do the archeology.
Three sisters, family 1910s where all taught music to uni level, all had thier independence, work, a late family, the whole 9 yards. This history always kills a grievance rant.
We the I.R.B., find the defendant guilty of making our friends look bad.
Helen's defense of her ideas - which insomuch as they disconnect Marxism and post modernism, runs somewhat contrary to JP's oft related ideas were solid and very much food for thought.
It was an excellent section.
JP interrogates these ideas thoroughly with Helen and this is an excellent part of the meeting IMO.
About 15 years ago I gave a series of Ph.D defense interviews with my mentor and the academic board. This feels very much like that. Really rigorous. Pointing out things the members of the board might not have considered, being questioned on those, and answering factually. No fluff. Citation, sources and logic laid out.
I'm not saying she is right. I'm saying she is very good and probably should consider getting her Ph.D.
She might be right of course - Not my field, I just thoroughly enjoyed the conversation - it was new incite for me.
A grown up conversation where people are, in real time, prepared to reconsider views they have held and expressed in the past.
This is exactly what academia should be about.
Well done everyone involved.
The bit on post modernism and Marxism stood out to me also and I'm really glad she spoke to it. I like Peterson but I think conflating this social justice phenomenon with Marxism, constantly as Peterson does, is very problematic. If it was accurate, that's fine, but I don't believe it is.
Whether Peterson intends to or not, he is empowering conservatism in the US. I don't have a problem with that in general, but 'Marxism' stands for deep ideological differences on economics when we debate politics in the US. He's also discrediting universal health care imo. Or I should say, he's fueling right-wing propaganda that discredits the left with anti-Marxist propaganda, and has been doing so for decades. Any debate on affordable health care is met with arguments about Stalin and genocide. Peterson is fond of drawing this correlation also, evoking genocide, when debating gender studies and the rest. It's nonsense really. We're not headed towards communism. We're seeing a threat to free speech under the law but not a threat to the democratic process.
Conservatives threaten freedom also with their ideological extremes. We have to be diligent to protect the separation of church and state against conservatism. The ACLU has a page on their website devoted to active 'Religious Freedom' legislation, designed to give employers, landlords and business owners the right to discriminate on religious grounds. The right-wing in the US can be just as delusional as the left-wing, any debate against their extremes is also defined as intolerance and hate in their echo chamber.
We have a healthy enough democracy to challenge both threats coming from the left and right imo. 'Marxism' is irrelevant, at least to the extent Peterson repeats it. Calling the right 'Fascist' and the left 'Marxist' is really the same problem, two sides of the same coin. Part of what Peterson is challenging so well. False claims and meaningless generalizations about millions of people with no basis in fact or reason, making his fear mongering about genocide very hypocritical imo.
I've also heard him speak favorably about Canada's socialist health care system, I don't think he's ideologically in line with Republicans in the US. I think he should make more effort to emphasize that his critiques are against identity politics only, not economics.
To be honest she has a valid point - and I'm happy someone finally pointed it out, as in prof. Peterson lectures this nuance usually slips:
1) Marxism assumes existence of objective reality and does not give much attention to culture as treats it as product of underlying economic structure (those two points are even more or less reasonable) or points out existence of some utopian, socialist future and class struggle (this is the tricky part ;) ).
2) Postmodernism - undermines any claim of existence of any objective reality and is all matter of narrative.
The thing is that the ideology is at best a mixture of those two and either calling it as "Marxism" or as "postmodernism" may be considered as imprecise or even misleading.
@@DaveZ150 , Standardowy Login, Agree so much! Peterson's love of plugging in this Marxism thing everywhere always rubbed me the the wrong way, and I'm totally delighted to finally see someone confront it and point out the flaws in his narrative in such a direct and educated way. Just made me respect Helen that much more, and I didn't know it was possible.
It's almost ironic that someone as brilliant as Helen is prevented from getting her PhD.
She could likely think circles around those who deprive her. We are deprived too. It's like academia wants a 2-legged stool.
I am in awe, love these “rebels” 🤗. Thank you for exposing the failing system of knowledge production. We need so many more like you. It would be nice to see a podcast with ALL the professors who have experienced a type of bigotry from Universities. Although it seems we have sounded the alarm too late to make change. It’s still important to get information out about what’s going on within these institutions. Appreciate these discussions.
On the off chance Peterson sees this, being so busy. I just want to say thank you. I haven't given you a dime, yet I've consumed every bit of audio content you've ever produced. That's the definition of selflessness. People talk about the money you make, you deserve every cent, it's so important to point out that your content is available to those who contribute NO MONEY AT ALL.
The only money he has ever received from me is the fraction given for buying one of his books. I agree, he is def deserving of his boons.
The Antifa stuff is a real shock to me. I mean, it's young guys dressed in uniform so that nobody can identify individuals, fighting militantly and violently against people they don't agree with creating an environment people are afraid of speaking up. Isn't that kind of behaviour the definition of fascism?
Hans Wurscht
Pretty much
This is exactly what I have never understood about antifa. They are what they say they hate.
@@mistymcd2292 Which is true for the entire extremist left.
@@Copenharvest I believe they will self implode eventually
@@mistymcd2292 I certainly hope so. We need sanity and balance in the world, not fraction and extremism.
I wish these four people had a podcast together every week.
I would listen faithfully!!! Great idea
I'm an American 70 years of age and not highly educated, and I wonder why Civics classes and the Debate Society have been eliminated from many high school curriculums and activities these days. Our high school history classes back when I was in high school also never covered anything on the atrocities committed by Mao or Stalin"s regime.
James Lindsay's audio for the win. Everyone should copy his setup, so crisp, so warm, ooh la la
I have a man crush on james lindsay
I'm not ashamed
It would have been nice to see all four of them on the screen at once. Maybe Dr. Peterson should investigate this technical capability.
so, instead of academics finding the lesson in the hoaxes thought provoking, and learn something from it, they resent the notion they have something to learn. They out themselves by such a reaction, don't they..
Well said ... it’s a common cult mindset ... to consider criticism blasphemous and refuse to consider the evidence in front of them.
Four amazing intellectuals and people. A wonderful hour spent watching this.
Very important issues, and I personally want to thank all four of you for the stances you have taken on behalf of the betterment of the common man.
It's pretty neat to be able to listen in on a conversation between four brilliant good-doers.
I like that. The other side are the do gooders!
These people are heroes and have done society a huge service. They should be acclaimed and instead of being vilified.
Incidentally, they also have a great sense of humour. The Dog Park Paper is comedy gold!
They basically provided some evidence for what every serious social scientist in good faith already knew. Its nice that it got some public attention now, but honestly this is nothing new for sociology and psychology students.
@Hector Lewis thank the internet. Things didn't go 'viral' instantly pre internet proliferation.
This whole situation reminds me of Milan Kundera and his novel "The Joke", which talks about a Czech student who fakes to be member of the party to impress a girl he liked. When the party found out about his joke, they expelled him and made his life miserable. Milan Kundera had to escape the Soviet-controlled Czechoslovakia, because teh real party there didn't like his novel either.
Milan Kundera argued back in the late 70's that the next concentration camps would be when you would loose your private life and everyone would be listening to what you say and do, checking if it adheres to the ideology. So basically, we would be trapped in a society where you couldn't have an opinion different from the dogma.
31:00. Engineering is not free from this kind of thinking! The field of "environmental engineering" is a HUGE money-maker for university engineering departments and companies. It's vulnerable to group-think and bias because there is NOT a binary test for success/influence when it comes to a lot of these environmental studies (the example for the structural field being: 0 - bridge stand, 1 - bridge fails). This leaves the field open to politics, data manipulation to fit predetermined conclusions, and departure from reality. I have experienced it first-hand, and was involved in writing a grant/pitch which I considered borderline fraudulent (but that didn't bother the tenure-track professors who were so desperate to publish and bring in funding that it warped their behavior!). I have a master's degree in engineering and can tell you, the first red flag I encounter is when someone say the empty buzzword "sustainability."
@@bannerlad01 I agree. It is a legitimate field of study. However, it's the most easily corrupted because many aspects are dependent on governmental mandate. If the EPA suddenly decides that "X" is now considered a toxic substance, tons of research grant money will suddenly be available to academics. It was this way with coal-ash for decades, and spawned tons of half-baked research.
As for an example, here is one of my papers. It's basically academic trash, but my professor demanded that I publish it, so there ya go.
"Pathologic Interpretation of Loading and Cracking Process of SCARC Specimens Using Fiber Bragg Gratings", proceedings of Geo-Hubei 2014 International Conference on Sustainable Civil Infrastructure.
I was righ in the thick of it, and you are naive on the subject of journal acceptance. It's a major pay-to-play scam in some cases (especially internationally, ESPECIALLY in China). Your example of "feminist glaciology" is the extreme example. These are the papers that get the headlines, but the real problem is the pursuit of the "least publishable increment" in pursuit of tenure. The professors do all they can to fly under the radar and pad their resumes at the expense of taxpayer dollars.
@@bannerlad01 It's not disingenuous at all. They appoint boards all the time, which are chaired by academics and industrialists with their own sets of incentives, who are listening to testimony from third parties, and it all becomes exceptionally political. I don't trust it at all. I'm just saying that the the environmental side of engineering has a larger incentive structure to produce junk studies because of this.
Oh man, I miss Dr Peterson a lot :c Hopefully he's getting better...
His absence has left a vacuum, which, I am afraid, may be filled with something evil. Get well soon! From Ottawa, Ontario. ♥️
He's apparently recovering and making some appearances.
His entire family is recovering from Covid. He had it worse than everyone else and came down with phneumonia for the second time in a year. However his daughter said he is on the mend and will be fine. For everyone else it was like a cold for a month.
I want him to be well! The world needs him!!!!!!!
@@chrisdawson3859 when did they ever mention covid? His issues over the last year or more were caused by prescribed medications which the doctors didn't and don't understand.
I really appreciated this opportunity to listen in on an intelligent conversation about important issues in universities. This not only reveals something about the fake social sciences but also reveals the depth of commitment to maintaining the quality of higher education that is practiced by ethical academics. Real risks with real consequences. What was challenging for Galileo is still challenging today in this regard: Science vs ideology.
"They feel aggrieved... and want revenge" (for their relative lack of power)
Those are the best and simplest words spoken here.
Here's the thing: these so-called aggrieved people utterly misuse any power they gain.
Fairness does not come from their use of power, only revenge.
Let;s recognize how dangerous these people are, and why they must be removed
from posittions of power punished (perhaps harshly) for misusing it
"of all tyrants, the worst is a slave in power."
-- Robert Green Ingersoll
I'm a big fan of these individuals. Thanks for the interview!
"the more we talk about this, the more ridiculous it gets" That killed me right there.
I love listening to the audio book version of your latest book, "12 Rules for Life." Your voice is so easy to listen to for a few hours a day.
I've tried to give it to my mother and brother...how did you approach giving it to your family? Did you avoid giving it to any family members? (not to get personal, just wondering if you avoided anyone and why)
@@pineapplaplatypotamus I'm the head of the household of my wife and 3 children. I say, they do. We're all on the same page.
These people are nothing short of heroes. Great interview.
They're definitely revolutionaries. Their work has completely derailed my plans and redirected my future in academia. I mean this in a very commendable way.
You guys did a great job exposing the absurdity of what is happening! I hope you will pull through. I keep sharing your videos. Greetings from Krakow in Poland.
I love how the power of the current system is all corrupting, but the power of grievances is somehow pure and innocent.
J B Peterson = Gandalf
Jordan Peterson to the postmodernists:
You shall not pass!
@@lucasdarianschwendlervieir3714 Surely "Jordan Peterson to Bill C-16"?
@@hemipemi Oh yes, good call, forgot about that.
The "wise old man" archetype! 🙂
He liked this comment lmao
This IRB sounds like a modern day Star Chamber.🙄 I vividly remember the moment I read about these “Hoax Papers” and my husband and I (both Engineers) cheered at the news. You guys are our heroes!!😂 By the way, our colleagues in Climatology are victims of the SAME religious persecution that you’re currently experiencing. 256 Government Scientists working in Northern California were fired/forced into early retirement VERY recently for “blasphemy” and “heresy.” They were also forced to sign NDA’s.😑
That's extremely interesting. I became a lot more skeptic of the climate consensus after seeing the power of pharma to sustain long-term political planning. Still 250 scientists let go at once? What were their positions?
You 4 are so brave and I applaud you, thank you for trying to save our Universities and our children’s education.
Matthew 5:10
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
That moment when Jordan finds someone to talk about "postmodern neo marxists" with. He could've talked to Helen all day about that I reckon haha
If that's true, I bet he will. Although the subject is completely insane
:')
Yeah and she straight off the bat disagreed with him 👍 discuss.
@@pineapplaplatypotamus I did notice Jordan felt compelled to cut her off as she was trying to talk long-winded responses that got nowhere really slowly 😴
@@tikkabrno Yeah he did, based solely on what she said. I'm just noting the correlation. He's really good at that though, cutting off ramblers before they waste a million people's times
Threats of physical harm indicate that it's a cult you have just left/exposed - a sign of cult thinking...
I'm standing (figuratively) in a fervent raptus of applause for these three! Thank you all -- it really needed doing, and you're all brave. My commendations!
The idea that reading further into crazy pomoid ideas taking a mental toll of you is so true and I thought I was alone in this. The last decade or so of cultural development took a deep toll on me and became depressed. Seeing how my social circles would buy into this nonsense was exasperating, specially because I had already gone through the nonsense when it was only a thing in the USA and felt hopeless when everything, bit by bit, was being imported to Spain and everyone started regurgitating ideological points and further creating new texts that were an open door to insanity. Good thing I got better on my own and have acclimated to surviving in this madness, because the world hasn't gotten much better.
Commenting before I watch to say JBP is the man and he helps me in every aspect of my life
And that's THAT, Bucko
Every aspect?
Flatulent language
PROLAXBRO447 cant tell if ur trolling or not haha
Wow. Helen actually schooled Jordan on the relationship between Post-Modernism and Marxism. I bet he is gonna use that in his future work.
I loved that moment! I've read both Helen and Jame's critiques of Peterson, so there was some precedent there
Where can I find those critiques?
@@nicolesimonealexander4639 mostly just from twitter I think, but James wrote a very lengthy article on Peterson for Areo Magazine, you can find that online
@@StudioWestLessons Regardless of whether or not JP agrees with the difference between P-M and Marxism, she made some excellent points. Points that I never considered and I have been studying the etymology of ideas and ideologies all my life.
Granted, there is an overlap of the two, and quite a bit at that, but she very eloquently described the differences.
Thanks!
This is such a cool interview. I truly enjoyed it and listened to it twice. You are building up such an interesting selection of interviews.
A sane discussion among truly educated people. What a delight, and how very unique on UA-cam.
The quote “he who believes in nothing will wind up believing in anything” is commonly attributed to GK Chesterton. Thank you for the illuminating discussion and God bless you.
I want to thank each and every one of you for fighting back against the inmates running the asylum. MUCH appreciated.... and actually entertaining too!
Holy s, this is amazing, how hasn't anyone in my uni talked about this while it was ongoing, god daaaaamn
Thank you professor, you did an amazing thing interviewing these amazing, selfless people!
Because THEY are terrorized into silence...read White Swans and you will see the parallels wiith the Maoist Cultural Revolution.
Jordan can you ask them for a second interview? there is so much left for you both to talk about and uncover.
If I had professors like this I might have actually tried during college. Interesting and fantastic discussion
The difference in thinking and speech is alpha vs. beta, yeah?
I'm hoping Jordan gets that online university up and running.
I had the entire spectrum, I almost ended up with an additional minor in Political Science(My degree is Criminal Justice), just because I kept taking this guy's classes...
On the other end I had a Diversity course which I never went to, turned in an entirely made up journal about my social activities, and aced... This was 7 years ago.
Savage_Gaming What professors?
You are one of the few people that make me feel sane Jordan
Well done, Jordan. A very interesting conversation.
Professor Peterson, to say that you have been trans-formative to my life over the last couple of years would be a huge understatement, from your lectures and helping me better articulate my views on transgender issues which I feel like I already knew and understood but couldn't seem to organize it into something I could articulate with friends, to helping me show my friends the dangers of socialism and modern feminism to even introducing me to the carnivore diet which has completely turned my life around, I want to say thank you. I also volunteer to help you set up a decent streaming setup. I mean my goodness, at least the audio. I have an audio background, I can help.
My only problem with this conversation was it was too short
@Weird Science *your :P
The 3-5 minutes after 46:40 is worth the full price of listening thus far. Ie: the dog park paper .....I laughed SOOO hard!!! No wonder "they" are embarrassed. I always say, "Don't try to use logic in this, that would break the rule." Hysterical. Extremely funny. You 3 are very naughty!!!!
Oh yeah Dog Park is a gem.
Hey Providence I don't know if you saw this, but Ben Shapiro on this topic is truly HYSTERICAL. I laughed sooo hard. ua-cam.com/video/PwFmrI5QQFI/v-deo.html
If I were a rabid believer in Social Justice, Critical Race Theory & Lesbian Dance Theory and came across this video I'd surrender & blow a gasket...........
The fact that the dog park paper was possibly the most ridiculous and got an award for exemplary scholarship makes it even freaking funnier
@@RobwLPOC Ikr! Haven't any of the "social justice" reviewers ever had a dog of their own? Ever gone to a dog park?
Just reading the outline (let alone the whole paper!) I'd already have known they fabricated the data for this one paper (as opposed to the Fat Studies paper and the others).
Can you imagine close to 10,000 dogs having owners who would've allowed some random stranger to "carefully examine the dog's genitals", and then even tell the stranger their own sexual preference?! 🤦🏾♀️🤣
Yikes -- if I met someone like that in a dog park, I wouldn't let them anywhere near either of my dogs! I'd be thinking -- WTF is wrong with this person? 🤪😳🙅🏾♀️
Jordan...as usual, a fascinating video. The one quibble I have is the terrible audio quality. Audio makes a huge difference is whether or not a message will be listened to.
Peter...I have a suggestion. I have no doubt that you will not be allowed to record the proceedings at whatever meetings you have with the university, but a workaround might be if you can have a person dictate a record. In fact...record everything. Wear a body camera.
Loving the new intro reel. Great interview btw. These guys are doing great and essential work for the continuation of the scientific method in academics.
OMG, terror and belly-laughter all in one hour...
They may be related. Nervous laughter overwhelming your terror response.
I just pictured that Conflicted Steve Harvey meme when you said that haha.
Thank you, Dr. Peterson. We need to expose the corruption to wake up the public.
Thank you for having these discussions publicly.
I want to thank ALL 4 of you for your contribution to noticing these disturbing trends, and for being the voice that not all of us have. You all are superheros in my eyes. This world has cracked.
Only just got around to watching these guys on Joe Rogan yesterday. So keen for this video now.
Didn't see that on my UA-cam feed
ua-cam.com/video/AZZNvT1vaJg/v-deo.html
Great interview
I cant stand joe Rogan . He has good people on but he just says dumb stufff sometimes when he talks
@@willnill7946 Everyone says dumb stuff when they are trying to learn something new.
This situation has me feeling all kinds of things: anger, sadness, betrayal. Boghossian, Lindsay, and Pluckrose are heroes
YoungD91 The emotional type, eh?
I heard about this trio, but I never seen an interview. So this is great and I am glad those three get to make their points.
No way! Huge Peterson fan and just got into Pluckrose and Lindsay. No idea they had a chat. Just great. We need Dr. Peterson back! Glad he’s on the mends.
54:50 "Somebody had to do it" ... yes ... and we thank you for it.
The one time when saying "you're so brave" is actually fitting. Three great people.
Helen is so clever, but whenever she speaks her voice shakes and makes her sound super nervous.... If she was a stronger public speaker she would be a real force to be reconed with!
Agreed, I'm looking for more of her stuff.
I think shes practicing and getting stronger. I agree she is so incisive.
She still has that mannerism that reminds me of an undergrad presenting a class project. That being said, the material and presentation has gotten better and she has done some recent stuff: ua-cam.com/video/xoi9omtAiNQ/v-deo.html
Just wish she could have been on the JRE podcast with Lindsay.
The "we recycled the data" line has me legit cracking up alone in a room like a crazy person. This is all amazing, God's work lol
Holy shit this is the smartest thing I've ever listened too. Helen's knowledge and intellect is the sexiest damn thing. Damn girl. Rock it!