I’m glad you brought this up, since people tend to treat curved dao as something exclusively Mongol in origin. Various cultures of central and northeast Asian horse archer cultures had been using curved sabres; Mongols simply happened to be one of them. Imo the Central/East Asian dao sabre is quite underrated, they are more often than not overshadowed by weapons like the Jian, Qiang/other polearms, or even things like the Miao dao/Japanese swords. They’re simply depicted as basic weapons used by common unskilled soldiers or as brutish objects lacking in finesse or potential.
Aden YANG Yeah, totally agree! The mongols loom large in the modern imagination, but they actually stand out as one particularly successful steppe culture out of the dozens which played a crucial role in history. Likewise, I also think that the Dao deserves all of the love it can possibly get. Although the spear and dao are sometimes viewed as simplistic, these two weapons are real power houses for fielding and fighting with large armies. It wouldn’t be wise to ignore their influence.
The Scholar-General 墨將點兵 Iirc shorter spears tend to get as much attention as the Jian and the staff in Chinese media and pop culture. For some strange reason long spears and pikes that actually had huge roles among infantry, not so much. Imo the staff and shorter spears being more popular has to do with the prevalence of civilian martial arts and modern wushu. Curved dao/liuyedao style swords being unpopular compared to other weapons may have to do with certain populist revival movements regarding Han Chinese culture (in which the Jian and the staff/spear are iconic) throughout history, including post-cultural revolution China. The curved dao/liuyedao, on the other hand, were more often than not associated with northern horse archer cultures, who were viewed as barbaric by Chinese, Joseon, and Japanese alike. Which is hilarious to me since the Ming dynasty loved loved liuyedao style swords, and there’s even an indication that a large number of officer swords in 19th century Korea were curved dao/liuyedao.
Hi, according to some new archeological research, some Chinese ring pommel sabre actually are curved(including backward curved and forward curved) since Han dynasty and warring states period, long before nomadic influences. You can search the key words環首刀內彎反彎 or 環首刀内弧外弧. I can't post links since it'll be auto-deleted.
The video doesn't actually talk about why the dao are curved. It talks about historical influences and when they might have been introduced to China, but that doesn't answer the question of "why". A better discussion of why would start with the advantages/disadvantages of a curved blade vs. a straight blade, then look at technological, cultural, and environmental conditions and speculate about why that might have made a curved blade the way to go.
Yeah, you are right. This video should probably have a different title. As far why curved blades were first adopted, I think that it mostly has to do with cavalry use.
This is a great topic, one that has always fascinated me in general, as I have a love of sabers from all over the world. The Avar / Magyar sabers were really influential basically everywhere. There is a surviving example that is reputed to be Charlemagne's sword: Here are some example pictures( www.hungarianottomanwars.com/swords-and-sabers/the-sword-of-charlemagne-or-the-saber-of-attila/. ) It's also worth mentioning that these early saber types were found in and used in the Byzantine empire, called the paramerion: Here is an example of a sword reputed to be a paramerion ( sword-site.com/thread/1468/12th-byzantine-iron-paramerion-sword ) which in many accounts and artworks looks like a direct descendant of the magyar/avar type, that then also was adopted by the Ottomans and later Persians and Arabs. It seems all sabers of the world have a common ancestor in the steppes. Those early Type sabers kept being used in Eastern Europe throughout the middle ages, then later were adopted in western Europe when heavy plate armor fell out of use. As firearms dominated the battlefield, again so did sabers become dominate against light armored infantry. So even the British/French/German type sabers of the modern era all shared that same ancestry as they were adaptations of Hungarian, Polish, Ottoman designs.
There were curved swords waaay before the Song. The Tang, for instance, had a long, curved sword called Chandao, which was held with two hands, and by the time of the Song, the popularity of that type of swords became more evident as they rose to become commonplace among the Song Dynasty's soldiers.
Hello, thanks for watching! Do you mean chang dao (長刀)? If that is the case we actually don’t have any evidence for watch tang dynasty chang dao actually looked like and some scholars believe that it was a glaive-like polearm. Curved swords do pop up here and there before the Liao dynasty, even a few curved bronze blades have been found, but the transition from almost all dao beinng straight to almost all dao being curved occured due to the influence of the turko-mongol saber.
A good smith or artisan can hammer out almost any shape they want so moderate curvature won’t make a sword much easier or more difficult to produce. But only having to grind and sharpen one edge instead of two like on a jian can save a lot of time and effort.
well i speculate it's by petty traders in caravans bringing around from turko-mongol areas from time to time way before those mongol dominance, maybe. But who actually invented it, that's a great question
You give a great introduce about the origin of chinese Dao Curved,the very earliest Chinese Dao Cureved are from Yuan Dynasty which was founded by mongolians have the typical curved blade.So i think that is true the real curved bladed chinse knife originated from the Turkey-Mongo. The Han Dynasty ring pommel sabre actually are curved(including backward curved and forward curved),but just a little curved ,so its hardly can be said to be curved bladed knife.and even in the Tang Dynasty ,the blade is still straight. I have to say ,the knife you hold is the Qijia Dao ,which is in Ming Dynasy .
That's not entirely true. Some excavated curved ring-pommel swords relics from Han dynasty and warring states era actually are quite curved, not just a little curved, the curvature can be easily observed just by naked eyes, no need to measure them by tools. Maybe it's the nomadic swords were influenced by those curved Chinese swords first, then transmitted back to Chinese again, not the other way around. This is called interinfluence, similar to the relationship between Chinese swords and Japanese swords. This is not for negating the nomadic influence on Chinese swords or "Chinese nationalism", in case you and anyone immediately start labeling. This is actually try to remind people of China already has curved before nomads and to correct the false conclusion that is "Chinese curved sword was merely derived from nomadic influences".
It is a broad catch-all term for single-edged blades. It’s foil, the term jian, is more specific in that it only refers to double eged straight swords.
I’m glad you brought this up, since people tend to treat curved dao as something exclusively Mongol in origin. Various cultures of central and northeast Asian horse archer cultures had been using curved sabres; Mongols simply happened to be one of them.
Imo the Central/East Asian dao sabre is quite underrated, they are more often than not overshadowed by weapons like the Jian, Qiang/other polearms, or even things like the Miao dao/Japanese swords. They’re simply depicted as basic weapons used by common unskilled soldiers or as brutish objects lacking in finesse or potential.
Aden YANG Yeah, totally agree! The mongols loom large in the modern imagination, but they actually stand out as one particularly successful steppe culture out of the dozens which played a crucial role in history.
Likewise, I also think that the Dao deserves all of the love it can possibly get. Although the spear and dao are sometimes viewed as simplistic, these two weapons are real power houses for fielding and fighting with large armies. It wouldn’t be wise to ignore their influence.
The Scholar-General 墨將點兵 Iirc shorter spears tend to get as much attention as the Jian and the staff in Chinese media and pop culture. For some strange reason long spears and pikes that actually had huge roles among infantry, not so much. Imo the staff and shorter spears being more popular has to do with the prevalence of civilian martial arts and modern wushu.
Curved dao/liuyedao style swords being unpopular compared to other weapons may have to do with certain populist revival movements regarding Han Chinese culture (in which the Jian and the staff/spear are iconic) throughout history, including post-cultural revolution China.
The curved dao/liuyedao, on the other hand, were more often than not associated with northern horse archer cultures, who were viewed as barbaric by Chinese, Joseon, and Japanese alike. Which is hilarious to me since the Ming dynasty loved loved liuyedao style swords, and there’s even an indication that a large number of officer swords in 19th century Korea were curved dao/liuyedao.
有趣的是，中國早期的環首刀基本上都有一定的內弧
Hi, according to some new archeological research, some Chinese ring pommel sabre actually are curved(including backward curved and forward curved) since Han dynasty and warring states period, long before nomadic influences. You can search the key words環首刀內彎反彎 or 環首刀内弧外弧.
I can't post links since it'll be auto-deleted.
Those are also due to the nomadic influence.
The video doesn't actually talk about why the dao are curved. It talks about historical influences and when they might have been introduced to China, but that doesn't answer the question of "why". A better discussion of why would start with the advantages/disadvantages of a curved blade vs. a straight blade, then look at technological, cultural, and environmental conditions and speculate about why that might have made a curved blade the way to go.
Yeah, you are right. This video should probably have a different title. As far why curved blades were first adopted, I think that it mostly has to do with cavalry use.
those sabres were probably much older.
L0 If you are refering to turko-mongol sabers then yes theya couple centuries are older than the first ones in China.
This is a great topic, one that has always fascinated me in general, as I have a love of sabers from all over the world. The Avar / Magyar sabers were really influential basically everywhere. There is a surviving example that is reputed to be Charlemagne's sword: Here are some example pictures( www.hungarianottomanwars.com/swords-and-sabers/the-sword-of-charlemagne-or-the-saber-of-attila/. ) It's also worth mentioning that these early saber types were found in and used in the Byzantine empire, called the paramerion: Here is an example of a sword reputed to be a paramerion ( sword-site.com/thread/1468/12th-byzantine-iron-paramerion-sword ) which in many accounts and artworks looks like a direct descendant of the magyar/avar type, that then also was adopted by the Ottomans and later Persians and Arabs.
It seems all sabers of the world have a common ancestor in the steppes. Those early Type sabers kept being used in Eastern Europe throughout the middle ages, then later were adopted in western Europe when heavy plate armor fell out of use. As firearms dominated the battlefield, again so did sabers become dominate against light armored infantry. So even the British/French/German type sabers of the modern era all shared that same ancestry as they were adaptations of Hungarian, Polish, Ottoman designs.
Mind sharing where I can learn more about avar/magyar swords kind of tough looking for info.
There were curved swords waaay before the Song. The Tang, for instance, had a long, curved sword called Chandao, which was held with two hands, and by the time of the Song, the popularity of that type of swords became more evident as they rose to become commonplace among the Song Dynasty's soldiers.
Hello, thanks for watching! Do you mean chang dao (長刀)? If that is the case we actually don’t have any evidence for watch tang dynasty chang dao actually looked like and some scholars believe that it was a glaive-like polearm. Curved swords do pop up here and there before the Liao dynasty, even a few curved bronze blades have been found, but the transition from almost all dao beinng straight to almost all dao being curved occured due to the influence of the turko-mongol saber.
not sure if curved blades are easier to make than absolutely straight ones... most old straight steels are actually a little curvy, right?
A good smith or artisan can hammer out almost any shape they want so moderate curvature won’t make a sword much easier or more difficult to produce. But only having to grind and sharpen one edge instead of two like on a jian can save a lot of time and effort.
basically a chineseized North West Asian sabre, with a disk guard and an oversized grip added.
well i speculate it's by petty traders in caravans bringing around from turko-mongol areas from time to time way before those mongol dominance, maybe.
But who actually invented it, that's a great question
You give a great introduce about the origin of chinese Dao Curved,the very earliest Chinese Dao Cureved are from Yuan Dynasty which was founded by mongolians have the typical curved blade.So i think that is true the real curved bladed chinse knife originated from the Turkey-Mongo.
The Han Dynasty ring pommel sabre actually are curved(including backward curved and forward curved),but just a little curved ,so its hardly can be said to be curved bladed knife.and even in the Tang Dynasty ,the blade is still straight.
I have to say ,the knife you hold is the Qijia Dao ,which is in Ming Dynasy .
That's not entirely true. Some excavated curved ring-pommel swords relics from Han dynasty and warring states era actually are quite curved, not just a little curved, the curvature can be easily observed just by naked eyes, no need to measure them by tools. Maybe it's the nomadic swords were influenced by those curved Chinese swords first, then transmitted back to Chinese again, not the other way around. This is called interinfluence, similar to the relationship between Chinese swords and Japanese swords.
This is not for negating the nomadic influence on Chinese swords or "Chinese nationalism", in case you and anyone immediately start labeling. This is actually try to remind people of China already has curved before nomads and to correct the false conclusion that is "Chinese curved sword was merely derived from nomadic influences".
the term "Dao" is just way too unspecific.
It is a broad catch-all term for single-edged blades. It’s foil, the term jian, is more specific in that it only refers to double eged straight swords.
盲猜底下有民族主义者刷内弧、青铜。中国早期在和直刃刀并行的时代确实有内弧刀具和弯曲的青铜刀具，但是那些弯曲应该只是做不直而不是特意造出来的。和后来的外侧弯曲不一样。
中国的民族主义者往往不能接受中国采纳外来事物的这一特点。
你說你M的民族主義? 漢代考古出土的實物刀和壁畫上都有彎刀，而且是"鋼鐵彎刀"，全都是實證，這叫民族主義? 另外你怎麼知道是造不直才變彎? 也靠瞎猜? 這你也有臉說? 你做過多少研究? 你實際接觸過這些刀? 你懂多少造刀? 你懂多少冶金學? 那其他這麼多直刀直劍是怎造出來? 笑死。
我看你才是反華逆向民族主義，怎麼樣都見不得中國好。我們只是澄清誤解替自己的先人和文化辯護幾句，你這廝都一看就跳針倒打一耙，是甚麼樣扭曲陰暗的心理才能造就你這奇葩的二G子蛙式反應? 有夠病態。
汉代的环首刀很多是内弧，很优美但是我认为无助于增加劈砍威力和使用手感，可能是在锻打的过程中，刃部和背部拉力不一样，自然形成的。