In college I had an amazing 3 year relationship with the kindest, strongest and most mature guy. Jim was the most Christlike person I have ever known. He towered above me at 6' 3", lean and all muscle. Jim loved his sports and I loved my music. We brought out the best in each other. We never talked about being gay or queer, we just lived it. We thoroughly indulged in each other, taking every opportunity to be alone, take a ski trip to the Colorado Rockies, a train trip to the big city or visit family. We lived under the radar. Not a soul really knew what was between us. Because of the times in which we lived a gay relationship could not survive. We went our separate ways after graduation. That was 49 years ago. We have seen each other twice in 49 years. We both married, have children and grandchildren. Losing Jim at the age of 23 was the hardest thing I have ever gone through. I cried myself to sleep every night or didn't sleep at all. Pain no words can describe. No one knew then or now the real relationship we had. It has been our secret all these years. For me, a heterosexual relationship has been anything but good. Like Lance said what does it benefit anyone by living a lie. Four things have sustained me...my children, my grandchildren, my profession and my faith. I never got to live the real me. I never liked labels and still don't, like gay, lesbian, LGBTQ...they only set us apart and divide us from ppl. Why can't we just all be one humankind. I understand equal rights but at 72, I don't think I will see the day when we don't live by labels and prejudice and can love each other for who we are, black, white, brown, gay, lesbian, Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, etc. When we get past all these divisive labels and names is when we will have accomplished something. I still struggle with who I am because of my Christian faith, my family and prejudice that still exists. I envy in a good way what Tom and Lance have. Jim and I had that dream stolen from us.
I'm sorry that you never had your real love by your side after 23. But you lived in times, as Lance said, that you would have lost everything. And although not yet there, your choisses know would have been different... be happy with your children, and grandchildren. And if they struggler, you can support them.
This moved me immensely. Part deep sorrow for the loss you endured and still grieve for after all these years (but not that you brought into the world a family) and part wanting to shake you no matter that it is too late now to do so. You still quibble about identity and labels but these admittedly inadequate words and the actions that arise from them, were and remain the necessary rite of passage for people of difference to be and stand in their own truth. There is no other way. Until people of faith get their religion out of the destiny laid down in us to love those we love, we will have to continue to struggle to live in our own lights. And any god surely asks us, most of all, to live in our truth and love. Any other god is, in my sincere opinion, not comprehensible to me.
@@joekelleher9761 Nothing makes much sense in this upside down world. After all I have lived through, I still stand on my faith in Jesus Christ, His love, forgiveness and restitutionary shed blood as an atonement for us, my family, my chosen life's profession and a reasonable amount of peace. I will always still wonder, "What if." I do carry the Jim and I of our youth, tucked away in my heart. It was pure beauty and bliss. Yes, I still grieve, to some degree, our loss. That part, neither, will ever leave me. Even today, I have a much younger guy friend (all platonic) who has, once again captured my heart. He is amazing but I could never let myself, "go there" again. Thankyou for your expressive insight.
@@joekelleher9761 I guess my point is, Joe, as a healthcare practitioner (Anesthesia) I don't refer to my patients as gay, lesbian or heterosexual. I'm not a gay anesthesiologist, just an anesthetist. Ppl don't care, they just want someone competent who knows what they are doing. Most of the LGBTQ agenda has done little to advance our "cause" but in many cases has hindered, stigmatized and set us back. We're all Americans, why say Black American, Asian American, White American or Hispanic American. It's the labels that separate us rather than unite us. If we want inclusivity then we need to change our mindset. Liberal gays have a whole different M.O. than conservative gays. The "right of passage" should be honesty, integrity, compassion, love and honor for our neighbor and fellow man. I take an oath to show prejudice to no one and give them equal care with high standards. I find nothing difficult about that requirement. It's what I ask for in return. And, yes, I understand it is a big order to ask the world to accept and understand what I, myself, still struggle with understanding and accepting as to the person I am.
My partner of 50 years and husband of 11 years died on 13th March 2020. For most of our lives we had to live a secret live. Until I was 25 "it" was illegal in the UK. How wonderful it is that the gay community now has champions like Lance to keep the equality fight live. God bless you.
I appreciate how clearly Lance articulates his thoughts. I’ve listen to him a number of times on the topics addressed in this chat, and I always come away with something new.
I am watching this from Southern Germany, being gay in a relation with my now husband for almost 19 years (officially "partnered" for more than 10 years - marriage wasn't possible until quite recently), and admire the wonderful conversation between two - for lack of better words (I am German) - wise gentlemen. This is more Christmas'sy than most of the things you see or hear these days and it is profoundly humane. If only we had a church or institution here, near Munich, where such an official dialogue could happen! Thanks a lot for sharing this conversation - this goes, both, to Lance, whom I admire for years already, and to Reverend Nunn! The world needs more people like you.
I have just discovered this conversation. Lance is so articulate and Rev'd Andrew so respectful, I think it should be standard listening in schools. There really is nothing to disagree on here.
I did not know much about Lance other than he wrote Milk which I absolutely loved and was married to Tom Daley,reading up about his mother and upbringing in the Mormon church has been really insightful.His mother sounds like the most amazing woman and its clear that Lance's strength and courage to speak out on issues especially risking exclusion from your own community is a real test to the strength he seems to have learnt from his mother.I love the fact he talks about the need to speak to those you disagree with and not just stay or speak within your own "tribe" or group.
this was a great conversation and it's really wonderful that Southwark Cathedral is hosting events like this we need a lot more nuanced and empathetic conversations like this in the world
Lance is an outstanding person and I am on the same page as he is. Fortunately Lance is much more articulate then I am and gets his thoughts across. We are fortunate to have his voice.
Lance is one of my favourite persons on earth, so his part of this conversation isn't new to me, but on the other end I'm really glad to have found out a man of church who is so open minded. As a catholic and as a person who strongly support the LGBT community, I suffer for the intransigence of most priests, who in fact feed homophobia in my country. Some of my best friends are gay, and they're wonderful people, and I've always refused the idea that God had made gay people and then condemned them to hell. As Lance said, this is not about being crhistians! So all my admiration goes to this man of church for being what I really think a Christian should be. Many thanks to both of you for this wonderful, deep and loving conversation. Final note: "it's a wonderful life" is also my favourite Christmas movie!!!
What a great conversation, specially with Reverend Andrew Nunn. It is good to acknowledge that can be held this kind of conversations and make awareness of the inclusion of LGBTQ+ in society as it must be. Blessings.
Lance, your wisdom is amazing. You've brought me along with you and the LGBTQ community even though I am a 71 yr old straight woman. Sending much love to you and your family.
I read this book in maj after hearing about it on Toms youtube chanel. I have to say I loved it so much. It was quite a journey because through Toms youtube channel and the oxford union video I had heard some of the content before and because of that it was already familiar. On top of that even though I am danish and dyslexic I was able to get it from bookshare (us) a ebook library for people with reading barriers. Which Nota the danish version of ebook library for the same kind of people arranged for me and paied for so I could read your book 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 I am so happy I was able to get to experience this book, so a big thank you for writing it 🤗 It made me laugh, it made me cry but most of all it made me love even more ❤️
enjoyed this. wonderful to see a colleague in ministry, though within another denomination, preside over such a delightful conversation. Favourite Christmas movie: "A Child's Christmas in Wales" with all those eccentric aunts and uncles!
What a great conversation. As a heterosexual woman, to use a label, i can't agree more about inclusivisy, of all groups. I'm not very articuled, but love to watch people talk about these subjects, and hear my thoughts well spoken out.
Mr. Black you referred to being one's authentic self -- When I am my authentic self, it relaxes me and and gives me the freedom to express myself in ways I wouldn't have ordinarily acted. My self love is enriched. I am fortunate to live in Montreal, Canada which affords total freedom of this expression. I have nor had a problem with excepting myself as I am/was but there are scars from how I was treated by my mother and father; the taunts and jeers from other students in middle school; being ignored in high school and in university. Feel like I am going through it now with the church where I'm attending now. I always talk about it but am getting the impression I need to be persistant because I am being ignored. At 62 it is kind of hard to make friends and what makes it more difficult is the pandemic.
The Golden Rule is also a thread in Humanism. We may not believe in a Higher Power or life after death, but real humanists also subscribe to the do unto others rule. It’s a major theme in the humane aspect of humanity.
This Lance is so different from the Lance we see in the Daley Life video, I saw that Lance first becoming familar with the kind of clowning Lance and was quite pleasant surpriced he his spendid Oxford Union speech. Once he starts speaking you cannot stop listening. But still it's the same Lance I would steal from Tom had I the ( not very likely) change.
In college I had an amazing 3 year relationship with the kindest, strongest and most mature guy. Jim was the most Christlike person I have ever known. He towered above me at 6' 3", lean and all muscle. Jim loved his sports and I loved my music. We brought out the best in each other. We never talked about being gay or queer, we just lived it. We thoroughly indulged in each other, taking every opportunity to be alone, take a ski trip to the Colorado Rockies, a train trip to the big city or visit family. We lived under the radar. Not a soul really knew what was between us. Because of the times in which we lived a gay relationship could not survive. We went our separate ways after graduation. That was 49 years ago. We have seen each other twice in 49 years. We both married, have children and grandchildren. Losing Jim at the age of 23 was the hardest thing I have ever gone through. I cried myself to sleep every night or didn't sleep at all. Pain no words can describe. No one knew then or now the real relationship we had. It has been our secret all these years. For me, a heterosexual relationship has been anything but good. Like Lance said what does it benefit anyone by living a lie. Four things have sustained me...my children, my grandchildren, my profession and my faith. I never got to live the real me. I never liked labels and still don't, like gay, lesbian, LGBTQ...they only set us apart and divide us from ppl. Why can't we just all be one humankind. I understand equal rights but at 72, I don't think I will see the day when we don't live by labels and prejudice and can love each other for who we are, black, white, brown, gay, lesbian, Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, etc. When we get past all these divisive labels and names is when we will have accomplished something. I still struggle with who I am because of my Christian faith, my family and prejudice that still exists. I envy in a good way what Tom and Lance have. Jim and I had that dream stolen from us.
I'm sorry that you never had your real love by your side after 23. But you lived in times, as Lance said, that you would have lost everything. And although not yet there, your choisses know would have been different... be happy with your children, and grandchildren. And if they struggler, you can support them.
This moved me immensely. Part deep sorrow for the loss you endured and still grieve for after all these years (but not that you brought into the world a family) and part wanting to shake you no matter that it is too late now to do so. You still quibble about identity and labels but these admittedly inadequate words and the actions that arise from them, were and remain the necessary rite of passage for people of difference to be and stand in their own truth. There is no other way. Until people of faith get their religion out of the destiny laid down in us to love those we love, we will have to continue to struggle to live in our own lights. And any god surely asks us, most of all, to live in our truth and love. Any other god is, in my sincere opinion, not comprehensible to me.
@@joekelleher9761 Nothing makes much sense in this upside down world. After all I have lived through, I still stand on my faith in Jesus Christ, His love, forgiveness and restitutionary shed blood as an atonement for us, my family, my chosen life's profession and a reasonable amount of peace. I will always still wonder, "What if." I do carry the Jim and I of our youth, tucked away in my heart. It was pure beauty and bliss. Yes, I still grieve, to some degree, our loss. That part, neither, will ever leave me. Even today, I have a much younger guy friend (all platonic) who has, once again captured my heart. He is amazing but I could never let myself, "go there" again. Thankyou for your expressive insight.
@@philshuster7463 God bless.
@@joekelleher9761 I guess my point is, Joe, as a healthcare practitioner (Anesthesia) I don't refer to my patients as gay, lesbian or heterosexual. I'm not a gay anesthesiologist, just an anesthetist. Ppl don't care, they just want someone competent who knows what they are doing. Most of the LGBTQ agenda has done little to advance our "cause" but in many cases has hindered, stigmatized and set us back. We're all Americans, why say Black American, Asian American, White American or Hispanic American. It's the labels that separate us rather than unite us. If we want inclusivity then we need to change our mindset. Liberal gays have a whole different M.O. than conservative gays. The "right of passage" should be honesty, integrity, compassion, love and honor for our neighbor and fellow man. I take an oath to show prejudice to no one and give them equal care with high standards. I find nothing difficult about that requirement. It's what I ask for in return. And, yes, I understand it is a big order to ask the world to accept and understand what I, myself, still struggle with understanding and accepting as to the person I am.
My partner of 50 years and husband of 11 years died on 13th March 2020. For most of our lives we had to live a secret live. Until I was 25 "it" was illegal in the UK. How wonderful it is that the gay community now has champions like Lance to keep the equality fight live. God bless you.
I appreciate how clearly Lance articulates his thoughts. I’ve listen to him a number of times on the topics addressed in this chat, and I always come away with something new.
I am watching this from Southern Germany, being gay in a relation with my now husband for almost 19 years (officially "partnered" for more than 10 years - marriage wasn't possible until quite recently), and admire the wonderful conversation between two - for lack of better words (I am German) - wise gentlemen. This is more Christmas'sy than most of the things you see or hear these days and it is profoundly humane. If only we had a church or institution here, near Munich, where such an official dialogue could happen! Thanks a lot for sharing this conversation - this goes, both, to Lance, whom I admire for years already, and to Reverend Nunn! The world needs more people like you.
@Tom Thank you, Tom!
What a thoughtful and soulful comment. Best of luck to you!
I have just discovered this conversation. Lance is so articulate and Rev'd Andrew so respectful, I think it should be standard listening in schools. There really is nothing to disagree on here.
I did not know much about Lance other than he wrote Milk which I absolutely loved and was married to Tom Daley,reading up about his mother and upbringing in the Mormon church has been really insightful.His mother sounds like the most amazing woman and its clear that Lance's strength and courage to speak out on issues especially risking exclusion from your own community is a real test to the strength he seems to have learnt from his mother.I love the fact he talks about the need to speak to those you disagree with and not just stay or speak within your own "tribe" or group.
this was a great conversation and it's really wonderful that Southwark Cathedral is hosting events like this we need a lot more nuanced and empathetic conversations like this in the world
Many thanks, Lance. Your words have been very uplifting. I''m new to "Tom & Lance" and have been binge-watching all. They bring light to my days.
Lance is an outstanding person and I am on the same page as he is. Fortunately Lance is much more articulate then I am and gets his thoughts across. We are fortunate to have his voice.
Lance is one of my favourite persons on earth, so his part of this conversation isn't new to me, but on the other end I'm really glad to have found out a man of church who is so open minded. As a catholic and as a person who strongly support the LGBT community, I suffer for the intransigence of most priests, who in fact feed homophobia in my country. Some of my best friends are gay, and they're wonderful people, and I've always refused the idea that God had made gay people and then condemned them to hell. As Lance said, this is not about being crhistians! So all my admiration goes to this man of church for being what I really think a Christian should be. Many thanks to both of you for this wonderful, deep and loving conversation. Final note: "it's a wonderful life" is also my favourite Christmas movie!!!
What a great conversation, specially with Reverend Andrew Nunn. It is good to acknowledge that can be held this kind of conversations and make awareness of the inclusion of LGBTQ+ in society as it must be. Blessings.
Lance, your wisdom is amazing. You've brought me along with you and the LGBTQ community even though I am a 71 yr old straight woman. Sending much love to you and your family.
Thank you for uploading, so much useful information thank you Lance
I read this book in maj after hearing about it on Toms youtube chanel.
I have to say I loved it so much. It was quite a journey because through Toms youtube channel and the oxford union video I had heard some of the content before and because of that it was already familiar.
On top of that even though I am danish and dyslexic I was able to get it from bookshare (us) a ebook library for people with reading barriers. Which Nota the danish version of ebook library for the same kind of people arranged for me and paied for so I could read your book 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
I am so happy I was able to get to experience this book, so a big thank you for writing it 🤗 It made me laugh, it made me cry but most of all it made me love even more ❤️
Lance, is a great conversationalist.
He's a great human being
Great conversation take care and stay safe and well from Western Australia 🐨🦘🐨🦘😷
I learned sooooo much from this video. Thank you both. ❤️ from Belgium.
I came here just to listen something long so I can knitt my cardigan (thanks to tom) and look who I found to listennn
@@_Nadine00 Oh wow Im not alone here, yaayy!
enjoyed this. wonderful to see a colleague in ministry, though within another denomination, preside over such a delightful conversation. Favourite Christmas movie: "A Child's Christmas in Wales" with all those eccentric aunts and uncles!
What a great conversation. As a heterosexual woman, to use a label, i can't agree more about inclusivisy, of all groups. I'm not very articuled, but love to watch people talk about these subjects, and hear my thoughts well spoken out.
With God/Love all things are possible. Dear Lance; thanks for believing.
Thank you so much for that. That was an absolutel joy listen to.
He is the best.
Mr. Black you referred to being one's authentic self -- When I am my authentic self, it relaxes me and and gives me the freedom to express myself in ways I wouldn't have ordinarily acted. My self love is enriched. I am fortunate to live in Montreal, Canada which affords total freedom of this expression. I have nor had a problem with excepting myself as I am/was but there are scars from how I was treated by my mother and father; the taunts and jeers from other students in middle school; being ignored in high school and in university. Feel like I am going through it now with the church where I'm attending now. I always talk about it but am getting the impression I need to be persistant because I am being ignored. At 62 it is kind of hard to make friends and what makes it more difficult is the pandemic.
I loved this too
Wonderful
The Golden Rule is also a thread in Humanism. We may not believe in a Higher Power or life after death, but real humanists also subscribe to the do unto others rule. It’s a major theme in the humane aspect of humanity.
loved this!
Me too, loved it ❤️
There is a huge deal of injustice to be unraveled from all religious groups; constantly.
♥️DLB
Sehr schön.Very beautiful
Interesting. We need more dialogue that was expressed.
This Lance is so different from the Lance we see in the Daley Life video, I saw that Lance first becoming familar with the kind of clowning Lance and was quite pleasant surpriced he his spendid Oxford Union speech. Once he starts speaking you cannot stop listening. But still it's the same Lance I would steal from Tom had I the ( not very likely) change.
I enjoy live Christmas trees.
I'm Jewish; so is Cecile. We are an El Ninjo.
Did Dustin join the Anglican community? As another former Mormon myself, I am curious.
I'm also into Bonsai.
I'd rather adopt.