If I have to count the amount of times I have actually heard this (Albeit in many other wordings); This guy just made it so better relatable than everyone's else. The way it is usually worded sort of gets you into a "Challenge accepted" mode. Whilst; ironically, it is all about adapting to what your anatomy pretty much is all about. There is a very thick line between "enjoying" your music and "looking good" like a pro "Acidophilic wannabe".... But it is all too often crossed for the stupidest reasons. Fortunately; we are at times, the options are too overwhelming. Though unfortunately, the options are too overwhelming.
This helped me understand why I sometimes feel like my left ear sounds different from my right. I initially thought it was hearing loss, but after checking frequency sweeps over a few days I ruled that out. I suspect it's due to having different ear canal volumes.
I had this problem where my right ear would sound plugged if i put it at the same depth of my left. I then washed out my ears with hydrogen peroxide. A large clump came out, i then rinsed my ears out with hot water, lightly scrub the outer ear and shallow canal entrance. Now it sounds better. The issue is lessened.
@@BlackthorneSoundandCinema Its definitely ear wax. My left ear hears less bass than my right ear, which makes my hearing slightly unbalanced. I remember years ago I would pan my left side more than my right side without knowing or realizing why when panning different instruments in a beat. I only noticed the imbalance when I got some IEM's and panned the same kick 100% to the left and 100% to the right.
Or it’s years of going to gigs and standing off centre from the P.A. And having one ear get rinsed while the other is more protected. That’s what I’m think has went on with me, standing off centre in loud venues means hearing loss occurs at different rates in each ear I reckon.
I’ve always preferred IEMs for their detail retrieval and sub bass performance compared to their headphones counterpart. I need a Susvara to match the resolution of a 64Audio U12t.
The convenience of having high quality sound without having to commit to headphone hair for the day is invaluable to me. The good thing is plenty of stores offer 30 day return periods if you can’t get the sound you want from an iem.
@residentzero Most collector like to keep their IEM I guess based on a lot of audio forum that I've surf. And beginner/casual listener are going to be happy with their purchase. This is based on thread like head fi and reddit and mostly focus on IEM store like Linsoul and Hifigo though.
No return period in the UK unless unused sadly. Also I shave my head but wear goofy looking headphones. I’m much happier getting strange looks from people (who should not be judging people based on how they present themselves) than be pushing ear wax into my ears.
Bravo! So many variables makes for complex measurements and solutions. Love how you showed the difference between 711 and 5128 between DD's and BA's. You can't trust a graph to tell you how it's going to sound. It's only a guide!
This is quite refreshing just coming from ASR reading a thread where someone was highly motivated to change to a $100-200 IEM that was maybe 1dB closer to Harman than his current IEM and that presumably sounds identical to Monarch Mk2 which measured the same😅
Eq'ing to the super review target does significantly improve most IEM's. But I've yet to hear an iem that sounds natural. No, actually, the blon 03 did pretty well, but that bass.. L shaped tuning.
@@mikafoxx2717 Same until the Dusk that arrived a week ago. Categorically more natural sounding than anything I've heard before except for Oluv's personalized EQ's that are quite similar.
@@hartyewh1 Awesome. I use etymotic because of the deep fit but they could use a do-over with tuning, they're so close and bypass most iem troubles by doing deeper insertion. The er2sr seem to be the best tuned one yet, apart from their Evo multidriver.. oh well.
The point about the brain expecting the sound to be channelled to the ear drum via a pinna and its acoustic effects is an interesting one. Like others I find iems slightly more resolving but over ears seem to provide a more realitsic impression of space and superior lateral imaging. Both are great in their own way. Wouldn't necessarily say one is better than the other, just different.
In ideal circumstances IEMs have nearly perfectly linear treble response compared to the best headphones which translates to high levels of clarity, but it usually takes a lot of fiddling around with tips to get there (if you can get there).
I feel a constant pressure un my right ear. It has been there since 2017. Only one time, the pressure was gone. And with my right ear, I could hear more. The earcanals are also connected to the nose cavity. People aren't symmetrical.
curious if pressure relieving tech like our Apex would solve that variance in LF measurements. Also something to consider with regards to the potential fit/resonance issues is custom IEMs which typically get right up to the second bend. It eliminates quite a bit of that variance, and thankfully so, because in live music consistency is very important when one monitor engineer is mixing for up to dozens of people on stage using the same model; he needs to trust that they're hearing roughly the same thing.
The day I open an audiophile bar&cafe the first signature drink we'll have will be called "Andrew's 6K". A refreshing lemon and lime flavoured liqour with just a bit too much acidity on the first sip.
@@imjustherefortheks It's the ideal thing for this hobby. Just need to consider monetization well. Few cups of joe won't pay for $50k worth of audio gear.
Can someone explain to me like I'm five because I'm not sure I understand. An IEM bypasses the pinna so corrections only need to be made about the canal, while a headphone needs to consider pinna and canal effects. Wouldn't this mean IEMs need to make fewer assumptions about the user and can be easier made to be more objectively correct (whatever that means)? Yes I know insertion depth is another factor but let's put that aside for now.
The brain is accustomed to processing sounds that have been naturally modified by the ear's outer structures. When IEMs bypass the pinna, the sound reaches the eardrum without these natural modifications, which can lead to a different perception of sound quality or frequency balance. This difference in perception is why some people might find an IEM like the IE 900 to have adequate energy in the mids, while others perceive it as recessed.
@@asplmn erm...babies do not come out of the "canal" with headphones on, do they? outer ear is designed for sound coming naturally, the headphone sound is already way off. some headphones do angled or multiple drivers to account for this, but its still not the same. i do actually prefer iem's for imaging, but even this sometimes is fake due to better resolution and depending on the production etc so yes, marcius is partially right, its somewhat bad "EQ" vs skipping it entirely
Man, this was a surprising video in a good way. I really appreciate educational videos like this because it spares me so much googling and misinformation. ty
I have the hexa and also the hifiman edition xs. Both tuned to a custom Harman curve with the Qudelix 5k DAC. I don’t know if a better iem would result in a different result but I just enjoy the over ear so much more. The only thing I like about the iem is the low power requirement and the portability and outside quietness.
It wouldn’t fix the impedance issue but if we all had the same reference IEM or one of a small set to serve as a reference, it would make the measured data more meaningful
@@DEALUXthat's why etymotic went for.. deep insertion. It works, but their neutral tuning really isn't neutral, the 2xr is probably the best tuned version of theirs, same with the others, eXtended response is the more neutral and regular one is closer to diffuse
Thank you so much for the info!!! This really helped me understand why eartips change sound. ex. 7hz Timeless sounds way more balanced,at least for me with the shallowest tip.(galaxy buds+ Large Tip; bass seems to get tamed while it still seems to be sealed) Hexa needed way more treble extension eq when inserted deep with small tips (and A LOT of bass cut)
I have always been a headphone guy. I recently got the kiwi ears orchestra lites and it changed my perspective rather drastically. For 250 dollars, the detail retrieval is ridiculous. I don’t think there is a 250 dollar equivalent in headphones . However, my 660s, nighthawks, and sr225 certainly are more natural and expansive, but the kiwi ears destroy them on detail. I doubt I would switch solely to iems, but if I had to suggest audio equipment solely on value I’m suggesting iems. You don’t need an external amp or dac for the vast majority of them and an Apple dongle measures exceptionally well
@@Tyson-luvs-nuggets you have to get the tangzu sancai eartips. It’s a night and day difference. Honestly, I probably would have returned them if it wasn’t for those eartips. The sound quality and comfort is exponentially increased
My style is first watching reviews as many as I could then I just narrow down the different dac amps, iems & headphones list it in my mind then decide what will fit first in my budget then my taste & lifestyle & also my room space for desktop set up.. then be satisfied of what I got & enjoy them as my endgame gears.. that simple.. & the brands my ears trust is sennheisers ie200 for on the go & hd600 for desktop, chord mojo2 + iphone xs max 256gb + apple music for on the go & Macbook pro m1 pro 16 inch + topping dx3 pro+ + edifier powered monitor speakers for my small room desktop set up..
Dear Andrew, I got the point. I'm glad someone informed me of such detail. I'm a regular music listener who just came to understand flac, dsd or mqa. Dac/amp, lossless, hi-res audio, etc. I use regular 30ohm open back headphones. I have not experienced IEMs before. But I can differentiate between average and good pieces of sound gear. Learning and studying for the last 3 months. I have come up with the following: Truthear zero red. Truthear Hexa. To be experienced with ibasso dc03 pro. In your expert opinion, which IEM is better. Or if you suggest something to me, application; only music listening. I can't stretch my pocket that much. Finally, e.g, $100 headphones vs. $100 IEM, which sounds better, detailed, and is true value for money. Again, before giving your verdict, keep in mind I'm a poor guy. Will wait for your reply. Appreciate!
No offense, this is a silly question. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks but you. IF I were to suggest anything at all then it's important to know what that person listens to and what they're preferences are. Iems good for orchestras are not always the best for metal or rap for example.
I had to give up on iems because my ears require different fits, which usually led to one side not seating properly and channel imbalance. I also don't find any iems comfortable past 30 minutes. It's a shame because I love how portable they are and the cost to get a good one is comparatively lower than over ears.
Have you tried the Etymotic ER2SE or ER2XR? They are a different shape compared to "regular" Chi-Fi IEMs and maybe could fit you better. Bonus point: they sound awesome 😎
My left and right ears' canals are different shaped . I had to use 2 different types of ear tips then only I could fit the Symphonium Meteor , most people universally praised Dunu's IEMS being very comfortable fits . On the other hand, I had extreme difficulty getting comfortable fit with them ( SA6 and Talos )
@hikarimiracle I am listening to meteor right now and I also have the same issue. I use one size larger in my right ear. B2D was also not a good fit for me. I like the isn audio EST50's fit though.
UA-cam guru's guided me to the Moondrop Variations, but they sound tinny and not natural to my old ears. So, they are relegated to the simple sounds and they are perfect for highly compressed music and movie sound tracks. What IEM ( < 1K$ ) would you recommend for well recorded accoustic music?
My story is almost the same, though I kind of knew what I was getting and I thought that I had a preference for that kind of sound at the time. At first I liked it, but disappointed came rather quickly. BUT... It still has merits and those are not to be underestimated, imo. The most significant one is smooth and well extended treble response. And not just that, it also aligns with the B&K 5128 DF target remarkably. Better than any other IEM I'm aware of. And that, iny opinion, is much more important than anything else with regards to FR, since it can be so easily corrected/adjusted to taste in the bass and mids via EQ (in contrast to treble, which is most of the time a HUGE pain to correct, if at all possible). Since I'm yet to be perfectly satisfied with stock tuning of any IEM or headphone I tried and there's always room for improvement, I always EQ anyway. Hence I've come to realize that Variations, in fact, would have been perfect for me (and arguably anyone using EQ), if not for some frustratingly persistent fit issues. Though it needs to be mentioned that there's a number of more reasonably priced IEMs now that achieve that smooth and even treble extension, like Simgot EM6L and Truthear Nova. They don't have such DF target compliance in the highs and have a bit less extension, but it's forgivable at those price points and they can still be worked with to great results. Have you tried EQ-ing your Variations?
@@unclethathurts If they have a problem with Variations sounding tiny, I would definitely caution against the Studio 4, it is even thinner sounding than the Blessing 3 which a lot of people think sounds thin.
I have always had bad luck using eq, until today, so the Variations are way better with eq. I am using -1db@3000, -2db@8000, -2db high shelf@10000. Live and learn.
On-ears have a slightly different yet related problem in that they tend to crush the pinna, and the way it crushes the pinna can vary. So in a sense yes, it is also more difficult to predict their sound.
I never reach for headphones in general beside comfort but even that sometimes i would just use a more suitable IEM. I just don’t felt the same excitement in headphones.
@@koresawa519Well, if we could, we'd all use high-end speakers/monitors, right? :) And yeah, it's always interesting to see just how much variance there is in this hobby. My ear canals have always been more sensitive to the pressure and get tired/sore after an hour using various tips. _BUT,_ it is nice to not have to deal with headphone-hair for the rest of the day...
It would be really helpful to have a video on how to understand our own anatomy and how it affects our expertise of sound, e.g. guide to using the sweeps etc
Interesting. I became more of an iem guy in the past 3 years. As an electronic musician, I need headphones/iems that sound good and can be used to mix well on. The LCD X 2021s are a wonderful and luxurious over ear set of headphones that can be used to mix professionally. Expensive (but worth it imo) at over $1100. At half it’s price, though, the 4 BA Symphonium Meteors sound most like the LCDs out of all the iems I have heard. Dare I say that the the Meteors sound more pleasing. Similar full bass impact (idk how they did it with such a small shell but it’s genius) and beautifully and smoothly tuned with some treble extension hardly seen in any other iem that has smooth treble 5-10k. Also has better instrument separation and just sounds more engaging. Iems are more subjective however as you point out - because our ears are all different. These are just my observations and my love affair with the Meteors gets stronger as I hear more and more sets. Still love my LCD X 2021s. But I can’t see purchasing another over ear headphone for a long time. Meanwhile, I can’t stop buying iems though that may slow. We’ll see how the Ziigaat Doscincos are when they arrive soon and if I’ll keep them. Seem similarly tuned to the Meteors - Love that the they had a cameo in the vid! My name is moons and I’m an addicted basshead. Love your well thought out content.
I've had excellent success mixing with IEMs using Realphones speaker emulation on top of it. Using just the IEMs for mixing is a catastrophe, but the combination of IEMs blasting the sound straight into your brain together with room emulation creates a VERY believable illusion of a room. Much better than anything I experience with Shure HD650 or high end AKG headphones. My biggest problem with IEMs is that they are very sensitive to how they are inserted in the ear and that can cause an unbalance.
My left ear is a Spock ear, my right ear is not so this tracks. In ear headphones absolutely never felt right, but somehow the cheaper more crude headphones seem to fit slightly better.
Drivers / speakers are speakers, they will produce sound, whether in the ear or outside, the closer the better for monitoring, and the distant the better for open environment reference. In ear monitors are better to analyse the details without any compromise, over the ear are little far which will also provide detail but less than the IEM, and the outdoor monitors will give a general reference of the sound which will not be as clear and perfect because they do not move with your head and ears and they are in the open, even if you are in a soundproof room. Hence, IEMs are better for details if they are of a good quality.
Do you have any advice for an audiophile soon to acquire hearing aids? I have two listening venues: one wearing Focal Utopia headphones connected to iTunes on my Mac, the other my open air rig with Klipsch La Scala's 10 ft away. Is it advised to remove hearing aids in either or both of these environments? Is there any consensus on which hearing aids produce the best fidelity? Thanks.
Earcanals left vs right are different, i've got a real problem fitting in ears, I went back to aurical earbuds, from jbl, good sound, bass and weight in the sound, cheap! I'm happy. 🤗
You can test for your resonant ear canal frequency using a PINK noise generator. Mine are around 6000Hz, with the left ear canal slightly below the right (L-5900, R-6100).
IEMs are ruled out for me simply because at my PC playing games and talking on a mic I hate having a head voice. ANC fixes that but wired IEMs with ANC aren't really a thing so I stick with open back headphones for stationary usage and airpods pros for on the go.
Great video. Very informative. I do use iems (u12t, ie900 and many others) but they never sound as good as a headphone to me. Hd650, stellia and Arya stealth in my case
your ears are simply not designed to have sound injected directly which is what iems do. Its not how we have evolved. The fact they work as well as they do is quite amazing really.
How much of this equation do CIEM’s solve by chance? Or would the variation end up just now being in the drivers since they’re molded to varying shapes?
@@listener-reviews "If this video included the flaws with earbuds it would be 3 hours long “..that’s how long it would take graph them 😴apart from that listen to them and learn chump
Great breakdown of all this! Simple enough that it’s easy to grasp, but still in depth enough that those who are already a bit in the weeds have something to take away
A lot of variance comes also from earpieces. In my personal experience, giving the same IEM to 5 people with foam vs silicone drastically reduces the variances. People underrate foam because there are a lot of bad foam and also its more cumbersome to use, but good foam give you a more reliable and reproducible experience. More and more Sound Studios use IEM for Mixing and Mastering, especially the Westone Mach 80, Vision Ears VE7 and similar. And they all use them with foam, the Shure SE846 comes preinstalled with foam. Especially with sealed IEM, it can be a day/night difference where, with silicone, some call the IEM too bassy while the other person says, it has zero bass. Both test again with foam, suddenly it sounds the same to both and neither too bassy nor bassless. I don't get why so many people do everything to circumvent using foam while they are the objectively better earpieces giving you an better and more reliable seal, better isolation (Especially with COMPLY P-Type) and an reliable sound reproduction. Westones TrueFit even feel like silicone, with options like these and COMPLY, which also have excellent comfort, there really is no excuse
I like my iems, but tonality wise I've always prefered speakers and over ear headphones. But you can definitely improve IEMs with some tweaking on EQ Nice video as always
Living in a noisy country in the tropics, IEMs are absolutely essential for any listening outside of my home: the isolation and lack of any uncomfortably hot contraption on my head.... Love all this nerdy sh!t, btw; thanks so much!
I just can't get over the amount of cable dragging sounds I get from IEM's. I haven't tried many cables but I rarely if ever have experience with headphones. That and it makes me so much more prone to get an ear infection.
I prefer to listen to my Kato because of the comfort of IEMs in that it doesn't feel heavy like headphones. But yes, it's not perfect. I use Spinfit CP100 size S for the left and size XS for the right. Also, it seems the shape of my left and right ear is different too. At some point, if I push in too deep, I have no sound in my right ear as if the ear canal has a blockage or something so it's never perfectly/fully sealed, just enough. But my left ear has no issues. I'm thinking of buying another pair of IEM though in the 500USD range next year (third world country so I don't have much money to spare, otherwise I'd go for endgame with the 1000 USD IEMs.) I know it has its weaknesses but I don't think I can go back to headphones. So, I'll be checking out next year's product. I think it's immersion for me. IEM is more immersive be it for music or movies as oppose to headphones. But then again, I have never bought expensive headphones so I wouldn't really know. The most expensive headphones I bought was 30 USD and a KZ IEM cheaper than that has better sound so I just take it as IEM> headphones. I love my Kato but I think I need more details, separation, and better technicality. The tuning is almost perfect for me. But yeah, I'm a bit weary because I think my right ear has a very different ear canal shape (I havetrouble with the right ear producing more ear wax than the left since I was a child too, it's weird). As for graphs, I honestly don't really care. I see "harman neutral" and I think it'll work just fine. I rely more on how people rate it I guess. In the end, it does feel like a gamble.
Higher end iems allow greater detail retrieval and make subtle details easier to hear. Plus with a proper seal iems have a greater sense of immersion imo
Very entertaining and amusing video. But if someone hears an IEM and likes it, and you’ve heard it and also liked it (and perceived it similarly), can you thus conclude that you can generally go with that persons opinions on other IEMs?
I had to ditch my first set of IEMs (Simgot Supermix 4) because I could really hear my breathing, and almost every time I swallowed and it really put me off in quiet sections of music,
so what is the pinna effect on the frequency response typically? and is there a particular region of the iem graphs i can see this assumed pinna effect for a particular iem?
My issue with IEM's is that... Even with quite low volumes (I'm generally a low volume guy) they exacerbate my (quite mild generally) tinnitus. And that makes them a total no go.
Thanks for your honest take. I dislike when your people gather together to laugh at and mock other brands because of what you call "esoteric" (which most of the time you mean as "objectively" bad) sound signature that do not conform to the latest "standard" set by other reviewers. We just hear differently, insert IEMs differently for a specific tonal balance, hear measurements spikes in different ways, etc. So I think you should state the "truth" about the product, more than whether it is a "bad" one (unless it is really something wrong/technically bad with the product.) Mocking "cool to hate on" products and brands insult the intelligence and taste of the people that do very much enjoy them. You can be "negative" without being destructive/a jerk. Of course false all-positive reviews for clicks I would hate even more, and I know your standards would not allow for that-and isn't what I wish you were. But do not feel attacked, as often you come across as one of the team's most open-minded of all, despite your strong dislike of certain tonal "quirks." My apologies if this comes as an insult, as it isn't meant to be. Your video above is most informative, and I hope many learn from it-especially because we know graphs, which are fine, are not the be all/end all regarding any given IEM or even headphone. (For instance, on one of your HD600 videos, someone commented it is "outdated" because many cheap IEMs measure "better"-he/she may prefer these earphones, but the HD600 do have their own distinct tonality that cannot be easily explained via it's measurements alone-and these are good regardless! I have lots of both types-just hated the hate.)
@residentzero The snobbery and mocking of others is what I resent-definitely agree on the "consensus," but most of us who have listened to headphones/earphones for a while already have an idea of what this "consensus" is. I have lots of "consensus" headphones/earphones (including the aforementioned HD600, which still some graphs extremists like to deride as "old"/"boring"/etc.), but also plenty of "bad sound signature" phones that sound really, really great-to *me* at least! I also have a very high tolerance of treble which most "real" audiophiles do not have. No, the age thing is not the issue, as I hear just a bit over 15khz. I just hear treble differently, and enjoy it when done well. Always find insulting the ageism often exhibited by *some* earphones fans regarding treble. A few of us just like it, and the elderly also have the right to love whatever they do (BTW, I am not properly "old," though also not young-but even as a kid/teen, LOVED treble response.) Much respect to you and the gentlemen that post the videos, no argument meant at all. Just feel free to disagree without conflict.
great video. appreciate the knowledge. can face id measure the outer ear? if they get any better with volume level EQ id have to switch to iphone and let go of wavelet.
What about binaural recordings? How would they affect IEM vs headphones? Would you get a double effect with headphones or is the pinna effect removed post recording?
The Blessing 2 Dusk is widely regarded as a very warm, calm sounding IEM, but the resonance peak sounded extremely sharp and sibilant to my ear canals. The only way to attenuate it was to use Spring Tips, which are quite short and made the nozzle go deeper which probably shifted the resonance peak to an acceptable place to me. This also happened to dms, but it's not a common thing reported for this IEM.
I can't use any Moondrop IEMs (tested Variations, Blessing 2, Chu 2) without decreasing volumes at ~ 3k-5k. I was too lazy to try to fix it with tip-rolling. Maybe my long european male earcanals are not compatible with the ones Moondrops were calibrated too?
Even at 57, it's a delight to be educated on something new. Back in the early 80's school was boring because we were taught by teachers that didn't want to be there. My parents told me that real education starts when we enter the workplace, very true although something else also eventually came along..... UA-cam.
IEM is the best value. Open back = Good in a silent room. Closed back = Good in silent and noisy room. IEM = Good in a silent room and noisy room and portable.
2:58 I'm hesitant to take harman research at face value in this case. Given how controversial harmans in ear target is be it bc of the limited sample size, coupler limitations or simply limiting people to a single variable/bad initial curve. Harmans research also uses a very limited array of iems/headohones, as their research has those as controls not independants. It could be that harmans IEMs had a poor array of tips My point isn't that it's wrong to say IEMs have a large variancce when it comes to how they interact with HRTF, rather that the harman data is not a useful tool to demonstrate or compare this
Well, there are a number of potential reasons why the IE curve ended up the way that it did, but I'd agree that there are issues with it. The inclusion of it in this video is to supplement the main point. I do believe that with a more comprehensive study with rigs that use more accurate acoustic Z, we'd end up with closer results between in ear and over ear. But that is part of the point of this video.
I don't like the IEM cables or fit tbh. Not very comfy or nice to handle. If my old Sony MX650 earphones hadn't broken after a week I'd have kept them forever. Is it also normal to have horrible harsh treble with IEMs?
the biggest takeaway I got from this is that it’s pretty much mandatory to listen to a pair before buying, I haven’t been doing this but I think I definitely will be once I go up the pricing brackets…
i have no natural pinna gain (i have no idea how) so every iem that boosts 3k (almost all of them) sound incredibly shouty to me. makes it impossible looking for a good pair for me.
Yes, the only definitive solution is one where the IEM is top custom for each ear. I personally do notice a significant difference between my ears that becomes harder to notice the further away the sound source is (IEMs, evident; speakers or actual instrument, non noticeable at all)
4:38 the gras is just the standard is more than enough even tho it doesn't do the whole spectrum, either way in those very high frequencies there is not a lot of musical information and that's mostly the ambience of the headphone, Also have to consider the gras system is been way longer than the 5128 just an a lot more stablished measured system, and also not all ppl listen to 20k so the bnk 5128 just work better in more specific cases with very young ppl even many young ppl dont listen that high. So the gras overtime just last more. Hopefully one day we find a treatment for hearing loss that day we all will use the bnk 5128 better.
We use both GRAS and B&K systems, and there is still utility in the older 711 standard. But what we found is that it's actually the low frequency information where the 5128's more accurate acoustic impedance is consequential. Dr. Olive has since also confirmed this difference. So for OE, the older standard is fine. But for IE data, particularly in the bass, the 5128 is really the better system to get an accurate read - especially when comparing BA driver and DD driver IEMs.
I'm not an audiophile, but I can read these graphs etc. Basically, what I gathered from this video was that due to variances in human biology and the construction of everyone's unique ears, there is no way for ANYONE to make a single item that can definitively be considered better than one of similar quality. In fact, it seems as though, you could put 10 different people inside a recording studio, while a song is being recorded, and their auditory composition and the way their brain processes those signals will mean that the song being recorded will actually sound different to each of them in minor ways. Just get something you "like" and you think sounds good to you. That's it!
nah I'll still look for graphs. ı know that they are not perfect. but I know that I like a bass that starts from 250hz in 5128 measurments. my ear anatomy might be different but this is not an issue in here: if you can measure a 14 minutes 34 seconds in an unsynchronized clock would that make a difference ? no. this is the same with graphs. its a nice way to quantify our preferences. and we should use it.
I can't imagine any of my IEMs ever having all the magic that my headphones have, but damn if IEMs aren't great for a lot of things... Being able to rock out with such punch, detail, clarity etc while I shop for eggs and milk is pretty fkn awesome.
I refuse to use any IEM without some kind of EQ. IEMs tuned to Harman in ear (like Moondrop) or even the new B&K target still sound WAY too forward from 3 kHz - 6 kHz for me compared to the rest of the frequency range. Using sine sweeps confirms just how forward those frequencies are for my personal ears and HRTF. Even compared to the HD600 it's too forward for me.
Headphone bass also acts as bone conduction in IEMs. It vibrates a lot of air that moves vibrates your bones from around th ear. That's why Iems have bass shelves and headphones don't. That's why speakers have 10x more bass that headphones when they measure the same. This is just my theory.
So basically the best way to know if you will like the sound of an IEM or headphone is to actually try it and hear how it sounds to you?
yes
If I have to count the amount of times I have actually heard this (Albeit in many other wordings); This guy just made it so better relatable than everyone's else.
The way it is usually worded sort of gets you into a "Challenge accepted" mode. Whilst; ironically, it is all about adapting to what your anatomy pretty much is all about.
There is a very thick line between "enjoying" your music and "looking good" like a pro "Acidophilic wannabe".... But it is all too often crossed for the stupidest reasons.
Fortunately; we are at times, the options are too overwhelming. Though unfortunately, the options are too overwhelming.
The audiophile solution to everything- buy more, try more, spend more money.
That is like saying the best way to know if a pair of jeans fits you is to try them... Common sense and redundant.
@@Meta-Drew how about making a custom one
This helped me understand why I sometimes feel like my left ear sounds different from my right. I initially thought it was hearing loss, but after checking frequency sweeps over a few days I ruled that out. I suspect it's due to having different ear canal volumes.
It's likely that it is wax causing that.
I had this problem where my right ear would sound plugged if i put it at the same depth of my left. I then washed out my ears with hydrogen peroxide. A large clump came out, i then rinsed my ears out with hot water, lightly scrub the outer ear and shallow canal entrance. Now it sounds better. The issue is lessened.
@@BlackthorneSoundandCinema Its definitely ear wax. My left ear hears less bass than my right ear, which makes my hearing slightly unbalanced. I remember years ago I would pan my left side more than my right side without knowing or realizing why when panning different instruments in a beat. I only noticed the imbalance when I got some IEM's and panned the same kick 100% to the left and 100% to the right.
@@Sir_Corgerus bleach!?
Or it’s years of going to gigs and standing off centre from the P.A. And having one ear get rinsed while the other is more protected. That’s what I’m think has went on with me, standing off centre in loud venues means hearing loss occurs at different rates in each ear I reckon.
I’ve always preferred IEMs for their detail retrieval and sub bass performance compared to their headphones counterpart. I need a Susvara to match the resolution of a 64Audio U12t.
me too
Electrostatics would do detail much easier and cheaper, usually it's their tuning that is jank in comparison, eq could do wonders.
The convenience of having high quality sound without having to commit to headphone hair for the day is invaluable to me. The good thing is plenty of stores offer 30 day return periods if you can’t get the sound you want from an iem.
not in my country, sadly
This is why I love the DCA Aeon 2s. Light enough where you don't get headphone hair.
I just shaved my head to be honest. Solved this among other issues
@residentzero Most collector like to keep their IEM I guess based on a lot of audio forum that I've surf. And beginner/casual listener are going to be happy with their purchase. This is based on thread like head fi and reddit and mostly focus on IEM store like Linsoul and Hifigo though.
No return period in the UK unless unused sadly. Also I shave my head but wear goofy looking headphones. I’m much happier getting strange looks from people (who should not be judging people based on how they present themselves) than be pushing ear wax into my ears.
Bravo! So many variables makes for complex measurements and solutions. Love how you showed the difference between 711 and 5128 between DD's and BA's. You can't trust a graph to tell you how it's going to sound. It's only a guide!
This is quite refreshing just coming from ASR reading a thread where someone was highly motivated to change to a $100-200 IEM that was maybe 1dB closer to Harman than his current IEM and that presumably sounds identical to Monarch Mk2 which measured the same😅
Foolishness. Audio is not a hobby for all I guess....
@@corrrect I think TruthEar Nova was a big part of the thread. No link I'm afraid.
Eq'ing to the super review target does significantly improve most IEM's. But I've yet to hear an iem that sounds natural. No, actually, the blon 03 did pretty well, but that bass.. L shaped tuning.
@@mikafoxx2717 Same until the Dusk that arrived a week ago. Categorically more natural sounding than anything I've heard before except for Oluv's personalized EQ's that are quite similar.
@@hartyewh1 Awesome. I use etymotic because of the deep fit but they could use a do-over with tuning, they're so close and bypass most iem troubles by doing deeper insertion. The er2sr seem to be the best tuned one yet, apart from their Evo multidriver.. oh well.
The point about the brain expecting the sound to be channelled to the ear drum via a pinna and its acoustic effects is an interesting one.
Like others I find iems slightly more resolving but over ears seem to provide a more realitsic impression of space and superior lateral imaging.
Both are great in their own way. Wouldn't necessarily say one is better than the other, just different.
In ideal circumstances IEMs have nearly perfectly linear treble response compared to the best headphones which translates to high levels of clarity, but it usually takes a lot of fiddling around with tips to get there (if you can get there).
@@DEALUX Yes, my in-ear beat my Stax when it came to the treble.
@@DEALUXTip rolling is better and less expensive than buying an expensive headphone that you end up EQing.
Great video! Good job putting this together. Was very informative.
In other words, IEMs bypass your built-in EQ.
So if you hate EQ, you *must* use IEMs.
With your line of reasoning, we should all poop outdoors
@@itsabodh See they made a joke, pooping outdoors is very inconvenient and therefore not a good joke
I do hate EQ..........
@@ImAWSMDanny Then you're the perfect target audience for the ridiculous prices people charge for specific tunings.
That is incorrect since when it comes to money, I have none
I feel a constant pressure un my right ear. It has been there since 2017. Only one time, the pressure was gone. And with my right ear, I could hear more.
The earcanals are also connected to the nose cavity. People aren't symmetrical.
curious if pressure relieving tech like our Apex would solve that variance in LF measurements. Also something to consider with regards to the potential fit/resonance issues is custom IEMs which typically get right up to the second bend. It eliminates quite a bit of that variance, and thankfully so, because in live music consistency is very important when one monitor engineer is mixing for up to dozens of people on stage using the same model; he needs to trust that they're hearing roughly the same thing.
Excellent video. Love the coverage of the pure physics and psycho-acoustics at play. Well done!!
The day I open an audiophile bar&cafe the first signature drink we'll have will be called "Andrew's 6K". A refreshing lemon and lime flavoured liqour with just a bit too much acidity on the first sip.
👌
Do it!
Man... 😂😂 I thought about open an "audiophile cafe" too... I thought I was crazy...
@@imjustherefortheks It's the ideal thing for this hobby. Just need to consider monetization well. Few cups of joe won't pay for $50k worth of audio gear.
9:00 I have no fucking clue what you just said, but I'm glued to the screen
Clicked to be angry, stayed to learn something 🫡
W video fr
I love HarmonicDyne Zeus Elite over any IEMs ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
Title is clickbait but the content is so good!
🤬
Can someone explain to me like I'm five because I'm not sure I understand. An IEM bypasses the pinna so corrections only need to be made about the canal, while a headphone needs to consider pinna and canal effects. Wouldn't this mean IEMs need to make fewer assumptions about the user and can be easier made to be more objectively correct (whatever that means)? Yes I know insertion depth is another factor but let's put that aside for now.
The brain is accustomed to processing sounds that have been naturally modified by the ear's outer structures. When IEMs bypass the pinna, the sound reaches the eardrum without these natural modifications, which can lead to a different perception of sound quality or frequency balance. This difference in perception is why some people might find an IEM like the IE 900 to have adequate energy in the mids, while others perceive it as recessed.
@@asplmn erm...babies do not come out of the "canal" with headphones on, do they?
outer ear is designed for sound coming naturally, the headphone sound is already way off.
some headphones do angled or multiple drivers to account for this, but its still not the same.
i do actually prefer iem's for imaging, but even this sometimes is fake due to better resolution and depending on the production etc
so yes, marcius is partially right, its somewhat bad "EQ" vs skipping it entirely
This video helps me understand why I have always had a huge preference for listening to music over loudspeakers...
Can we get a confirmation that no elephants were hurt in the making of this video?
4 months later. Still no confirmation. Hm. Who's calling PETA?
Man, this was a surprising video in a good way. I really appreciate educational videos like this because it spares me so much googling and misinformation. ty
I have the hexa and also the hifiman edition xs. Both tuned to a custom Harman curve with the Qudelix 5k DAC. I don’t know if a better iem would result in a different result but I just enjoy the over ear so much more. The only thing I like about the iem is the low power requirement and the portability and outside quietness.
A friend who has many headphones said he haven’t had IEM because they sound small but my bassy Sony IER Z1R to me at least doesn’t sound small
It wouldn’t fix the impedance issue but if we all had the same reference IEM or one of a small set to serve as a reference, it would make the measured data more meaningful
Not sure how. The fit between IEMs isn't consistent, on rigs or humans.
Also QC
@@DEALUXthat's why etymotic went for.. deep insertion. It works, but their neutral tuning really isn't neutral, the 2xr is probably the best tuned version of theirs, same with the others, eXtended response is the more neutral and regular one is closer to diffuse
Thank you so much for the info!!! This really helped me understand why eartips change sound. ex. 7hz Timeless sounds way more balanced,at least for me with the shallowest tip.(galaxy buds+ Large Tip; bass seems to get tamed while it still seems to be sealed) Hexa needed way more treble extension eq when inserted deep with small tips (and A LOT of bass cut)
I have always been a headphone guy. I recently got the kiwi ears orchestra lites and it changed my perspective rather drastically. For 250 dollars, the detail retrieval is ridiculous. I don’t think there is a 250 dollar equivalent in headphones . However, my 660s, nighthawks, and sr225 certainly are more natural and expansive, but the kiwi ears destroy them on detail. I doubt I would switch solely to iems, but if I had to suggest audio equipment solely on value I’m suggesting iems. You don’t need an external amp or dac for the vast majority of them and an Apple dongle measures exceptionally well
Dude me too! I got the clear ones for FPS, and they’re amazing. I bought a DAC/ AMP and it also stepped it up a notch
@@Tyson-luvs-nuggets you have to get the tangzu sancai eartips. It’s a night and day difference. Honestly, I probably would have returned them if it wasn’t for those eartips. The sound quality and comfort is exponentially increased
My style is first watching reviews as many as I could then I just narrow down the different dac amps, iems & headphones list it in my mind then decide what will fit first in my budget then my taste & lifestyle & also my room space for desktop set up.. then be satisfied of what I got & enjoy them as my endgame gears.. that simple.. & the brands my ears trust is sennheisers ie200 for on the go & hd600 for desktop, chord mojo2 + iphone xs max 256gb + apple music for on the go & Macbook pro m1 pro 16 inch + topping dx3 pro+ + edifier powered monitor speakers for my small room desktop set up..
Dear Andrew, I got the point. I'm glad someone informed me of such detail.
I'm a regular music listener who just came to understand flac, dsd or mqa. Dac/amp, lossless, hi-res audio, etc.
I use regular 30ohm open back headphones.
I have not experienced IEMs before.
But I can differentiate between average and good pieces of sound gear.
Learning and studying for the last 3 months.
I have come up with the following:
Truthear zero red.
Truthear Hexa.
To be experienced with ibasso dc03 pro.
In your expert opinion, which IEM is better. Or if you suggest something to me, application; only music listening. I can't stretch my pocket that much.
Finally, e.g, $100 headphones vs. $100 IEM, which sounds better, detailed, and is true value for money. Again, before giving your verdict, keep in mind I'm a poor guy.
Will wait for your reply. Appreciate!
No offense, this is a silly question. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks but you. IF I were to suggest anything at all then it's important to know what that person listens to and what they're preferences are. Iems good for orchestras are not always the best for metal or rap for example.
This was an amazing video. Thank you!
I had to give up on iems because my ears require different fits, which usually led to one side not seating properly and channel imbalance. I also don't find any iems comfortable past 30 minutes. It's a shame because I love how portable they are and the cost to get a good one is comparatively lower than over ears.
Have you tried the Etymotic ER2SE or ER2XR?
They are a different shape compared to "regular" Chi-Fi IEMs and maybe could fit you better.
Bonus point: they sound awesome 😎
My left and right ears' canals are different shaped . I had to use 2 different types of ear tips then only I could fit the Symphonium Meteor , most people universally praised Dunu's IEMS being very comfortable fits . On the other hand, I had extreme difficulty getting comfortable fit with them ( SA6 and Talos )
Yeah, both the SA6 and Talos fit me horribly hahahha
Had to sell them both
@hikarimiracle I am listening to meteor right now and I also have the same issue. I use one size larger in my right ear. B2D was also not a good fit for me. I like the isn audio EST50's fit though.
More technical content please :)
Thanks for this great video!
Very important question: The IEM Harman Curve doesn't consider the lack of the pinna and therefore make some sort of compensation?
Thanks
UA-cam guru's guided me to the Moondrop Variations, but they sound tinny and not natural to my old ears. So, they are relegated to the simple sounds and they are perfect for highly compressed music and movie sound tracks.
What IEM ( < 1K$ ) would you recommend for well recorded accoustic music?
My story is almost the same, though I kind of knew what I was getting and I thought that I had a preference for that kind of sound at the time.
At first I liked it, but disappointed came rather quickly.
BUT...
It still has merits and those are not to be underestimated, imo. The most significant one is smooth and well extended treble response. And not just that, it also aligns with the B&K 5128 DF target remarkably. Better than any other IEM I'm aware of.
And that, iny opinion, is much more important than anything else with regards to FR, since it can be so easily corrected/adjusted to taste in the bass and mids via EQ (in contrast to treble, which is most of the time a HUGE pain to correct, if at all possible).
Since I'm yet to be perfectly satisfied with stock tuning of any IEM or headphone I tried and there's always room for improvement, I always EQ anyway. Hence I've come to realize that Variations, in fact, would have been perfect for me (and arguably anyone using EQ), if not for some frustratingly persistent fit issues.
Though it needs to be mentioned that there's a number of more reasonably priced IEMs now that achieve that smooth and even treble extension, like Simgot EM6L and Truthear Nova. They don't have such DF target compliance in the highs and have a bit less extension, but it's forgivable at those price points and they can still be worked with to great results.
Have you tried EQ-ing your Variations?
Variations are not that good.
Monarch Mk2
Sony ier M9
Softears studio 4
Is my recommendation for you
@@unclethathurts If they have a problem with Variations sounding tiny, I would definitely caution against the Studio 4, it is even thinner sounding than the Blessing 3 which a lot of people think sounds thin.
I have always had bad luck using eq, until today, so the Variations are way better with eq. I am using -1db@3000, -2db@8000, -2db high shelf@10000.
Live and learn.
Kiwi Ears Orchestra...not the lite.
Would the same pinna argument apply to on-ear headphones?
On-ears have a slightly different yet related problem in that they tend to crush the pinna, and the way it crushes the pinna can vary. So in a sense yes, it is also more difficult to predict their sound.
AGREED!
lol for real tho, I never reach for my IEMs at home. Portability is primarily where IEMs excel over all else.
Mostly same, but sometimes I get tired of overears and I just want to listen to headphones without having anything on my head.
I never reach for headphones in general beside comfort but even that sometimes i would just use a more suitable IEM. I just don’t felt the same excitement in headphones.
I never reach for on ears, why would i when iems are almost invisible for wearing long sessions@@koresawa519
@@koresawa519Well, if we could, we'd all use high-end speakers/monitors, right? :)
And yeah, it's always interesting to see just how much variance there is in this hobby. My ear canals have always been more sensitive to the pressure and get tired/sore after an hour using various tips. _BUT,_ it is nice to not have to deal with headphone-hair for the rest of the day...
@@asplmn My top preference is still iems. Iems > Speakers >= Headphones
It would be really helpful to have a video on how to understand our own anatomy and how it affects our expertise of sound, e.g. guide to using the sweeps etc
Interesting. I became more of an iem guy in the past 3 years. As an electronic musician, I need headphones/iems that sound good and can be used to mix well on. The LCD X 2021s are a wonderful and luxurious over ear set of headphones that can be used to mix professionally. Expensive (but worth it imo) at over $1100. At half it’s price, though, the 4 BA Symphonium Meteors sound most like the LCDs out of all the iems I have heard. Dare I say that the the Meteors sound more pleasing. Similar full bass impact (idk how they did it with such a small shell but it’s genius) and beautifully and smoothly tuned with some treble extension hardly seen in any other iem that has smooth treble 5-10k. Also has better instrument separation and just sounds more engaging. Iems are more subjective however as you point out - because our ears are all different. These are just my observations and my love affair with the Meteors gets stronger as I hear more and more sets. Still love my LCD X 2021s. But I can’t see purchasing another over ear headphone for a long time. Meanwhile, I can’t stop buying iems though that may slow. We’ll see how the Ziigaat Doscincos are when they arrive soon and if I’ll keep them. Seem similarly tuned to the Meteors - Love that the they had a cameo in the vid! My name is moons and I’m an addicted basshead. Love your well thought out content.
I've had excellent success mixing with IEMs using Realphones speaker emulation on top of it. Using just the IEMs for mixing is a catastrophe, but the combination of IEMs blasting the sound straight into your brain together with room emulation creates a VERY believable illusion of a room. Much better than anything I experience with Shure HD650 or high end AKG headphones. My biggest problem with IEMs is that they are very sensitive to how they are inserted in the ear and that can cause an unbalance.
why you Guys did not review HIDIZS MP-145 Planer Driver IEM??
What about ear wax? How does it affect the Head-Related Transfer Function?
If you get ear wax. Remove the earphones for a while or reduce the volume or bass
Hi guys i was wondering what IEM's people who like the signature of chord dave + susvara + amp would like?
My left ear is a Spock ear, my right ear is not so this tracks. In ear headphones absolutely never felt right, but somehow the cheaper more crude headphones seem to fit slightly better.
Drivers / speakers are speakers, they will produce sound, whether in the ear or outside, the closer the better for monitoring, and the distant the better for open environment reference. In ear monitors are better to analyse the details without any compromise, over the ear are little far which will also provide detail but less than the IEM, and the outdoor monitors will give a general reference of the sound which will not be as clear and perfect because they do not move with your head and ears and they are in the open, even if you are in a soundproof room. Hence, IEMs are better for details if they are of a good quality.
Do you have any advice for an audiophile soon to acquire hearing aids? I have two listening venues: one wearing Focal Utopia headphones connected to iTunes on my Mac, the other my open air rig with Klipsch La Scala's 10 ft away. Is it advised to remove hearing aids in either or both of these environments? Is there any consensus on which hearing aids produce the best fidelity? Thanks.
Earcanals left vs right are different, i've got a real problem fitting in ears, I went back to aurical earbuds, from jbl, good sound, bass and weight in the sound, cheap! I'm happy. 🤗
You can test for your resonant ear canal frequency using a PINK noise generator. Mine are around 6000Hz, with the left ear canal slightly below the right (L-5900, R-6100).
I've always wondered about acoustic impedance. I guess that explains why headphones with large pads that vary in shape can measure differently.
This is why I love
IEMs are ruled out for me simply because at my PC playing games and talking on a mic I hate having a head voice. ANC fixes that but wired IEMs with ANC aren't really a thing so I stick with open back headphones for stationary usage and airpods pros for on the go.
Great video. Very informative. I do use iems (u12t, ie900 and many others) but they never sound as good as a headphone to me. Hd650, stellia and Arya stealth in my case
I like items for the detail in the midst and treble.but I also like over ears because they have a wider soundstage and they sound more natural
not to mention that the HRTF also includes phase and resonance effects which i think aren't replicable any other way than with DSP
But what about hearing loss during a constant listening of IEMs ?
your ears are simply not designed to have sound injected directly which is what iems do.
Its not how we have evolved. The fact they work as well as they do is quite amazing really.
How much of this equation do CIEM’s solve by chance? Or would the variation end up just now being in the drivers since they’re molded to varying shapes?
Should also include flathead buds like TGXear and Riku..best of both worlds 👍
If this video included the flaws with earbuds it would be 3 hours long 😂
@@listener-reviews "If this video included the flaws with earbuds it would be 3 hours long “..that’s how long it would take graph them 😴apart from that listen to them and learn chump
Great breakdown of all this! Simple enough that it’s easy to grasp, but still in depth enough that those who are already a bit in the weeds have something to take away
Andrew, help me decide, Focal Bathys or MoonDrop Variations?
A lot of variance comes also from earpieces. In my personal experience, giving the same IEM to 5 people with foam vs silicone drastically reduces the variances.
People underrate foam because there are a lot of bad foam and also its more cumbersome to use, but good foam give you a more reliable and reproducible experience.
More and more Sound Studios use IEM for Mixing and Mastering, especially the Westone Mach 80, Vision Ears VE7 and similar.
And they all use them with foam, the Shure SE846 comes preinstalled with foam.
Especially with sealed IEM, it can be a day/night difference where, with silicone, some call the IEM too bassy while the other person says, it has zero bass. Both test again with foam, suddenly it sounds the same to both and neither too bassy nor bassless.
I don't get why so many people do everything to circumvent using foam while they are the objectively better earpieces giving you an better and more reliable seal, better isolation (Especially with COMPLY P-Type) and an reliable sound reproduction.
Westones TrueFit even feel like silicone, with options like these and COMPLY, which also have excellent comfort, there really is no excuse
Wait! You can manually tune them!? Please make a tutorial one please! Thank you!
This video might be long and complicated but it is really necessary.
I like my iems, but tonality wise I've always prefered speakers and over ear headphones. But you can definitely improve IEMs with some tweaking on EQ
Nice video as always
Living in a noisy country in the tropics, IEMs are absolutely essential for any listening outside of my home: the isolation and lack of any uncomfortably hot contraption on my head....
Love all this nerdy sh!t, btw; thanks so much!
I just can't get over the amount of cable dragging sounds I get from IEM's. I haven't tried many cables but I rarely if ever have experience with headphones. That and it makes me so much more prone to get an ear infection.
I think it would be beneficial to make a video on how to use cursor based sweeps to EQ. I.e, how to EQ by ear.
I prefer to listen to my Kato because of the comfort of IEMs in that it doesn't feel heavy like headphones. But yes, it's not perfect. I use Spinfit CP100 size S for the left and size XS for the right. Also, it seems the shape of my left and right ear is different too. At some point, if I push in too deep, I have no sound in my right ear as if the ear canal has a blockage or something so it's never perfectly/fully sealed, just enough. But my left ear has no issues. I'm thinking of buying another pair of IEM though in the 500USD range next year (third world country so I don't have much money to spare, otherwise I'd go for endgame with the 1000 USD IEMs.) I know it has its weaknesses but I don't think I can go back to headphones. So, I'll be checking out next year's product. I think it's immersion for me. IEM is more immersive be it for music or movies as oppose to headphones. But then again, I have never bought expensive headphones so I wouldn't really know. The most expensive headphones I bought was 30 USD and a KZ IEM cheaper than that has better sound so I just take it as IEM> headphones.
I love my Kato but I think I need more details, separation, and better technicality. The tuning is almost perfect for me. But yeah, I'm a bit weary because I think my right ear has a very different ear canal shape (I havetrouble with the right ear producing more ear wax than the left since I was a child too, it's weird).
As for graphs, I honestly don't really care. I see "harman neutral" and I think it'll work just fine. I rely more on how people rate it I guess. In the end, it does feel like a gamble.
Higher end iems allow greater detail retrieval and make subtle details easier to hear. Plus with a proper seal iems have a greater sense of immersion imo
Very entertaining and amusing video. But if someone hears an IEM and likes it, and you’ve heard it and also liked it (and perceived it similarly), can you thus conclude that you can generally go with that persons opinions on other IEMs?
I'd say yes, provided that you both liked it for the same reasons
So.. iems are not objectively worse.. it just may be harder to find the best match for you even with available measurements
He didnt say they were objectively worse, title of the video is HOW theyre objectively worse, not that they simply are.
Shouldnt wr replace "worse" with "harder to measure"? Seems like the only objectively worse aspect is higher distortion in some cases.
Why doesn’t open back iems angle their drivers like some headphones manufacturers so they hit the pinna just a thought 🤔
Because IEMs bypass the pinna all together. They go straight into the ear canal.
I had to ditch my first set of IEMs (Simgot Supermix 4) because I could really hear my breathing, and almost every time I swallowed and it really put me off in quiet sections of music,
I think the take away you mentioned is spot on. Graphs are one thing and ear sound is another
so what is the pinna effect on the frequency response typically? and is there a particular region of the iem graphs i can see this assumed pinna effect for a particular iem?
My issue with IEM's is that... Even with quite low volumes (I'm generally a low volume guy) they exacerbate my (quite mild generally) tinnitus. And that makes them a total no go.
_you guys are the chosen one_
Thanks for your honest take. I dislike when your people gather together to laugh at and mock other brands because of what you call "esoteric" (which most of the time you mean as "objectively" bad) sound signature that do not conform to the latest "standard" set by other reviewers. We just hear differently, insert IEMs differently for a specific tonal balance, hear measurements spikes in different ways, etc. So I think you should state the "truth" about the product, more than whether it is a "bad" one (unless it is really something wrong/technically bad with the product.) Mocking "cool to hate on" products and brands insult the intelligence and taste of the people that do very much enjoy them. You can be "negative" without being destructive/a jerk. Of course false all-positive reviews for clicks I would hate even more, and I know your standards would not allow for that-and isn't what I wish you were. But do not feel attacked, as often you come across as one of the team's most open-minded of all, despite your strong dislike of certain tonal "quirks."
My apologies if this comes as an insult, as it isn't meant to be. Your video above is most informative, and I hope many learn from it-especially because we know graphs, which are fine, are not the be all/end all regarding any given IEM or even headphone.
(For instance, on one of your HD600 videos, someone commented it is "outdated" because many cheap IEMs measure "better"-he/she may prefer these earphones, but the HD600 do have their own distinct tonality that cannot be easily explained via it's measurements alone-and these are good regardless! I have lots of both types-just hated the hate.)
@residentzero The snobbery and mocking of others is what I resent-definitely agree on the "consensus," but most of us who have listened to headphones/earphones for a while already have an idea of what this "consensus" is. I have lots of "consensus" headphones/earphones (including the aforementioned HD600, which still some graphs extremists like to deride as "old"/"boring"/etc.), but also plenty of "bad sound signature" phones that sound really, really great-to *me* at least!
I also have a very high tolerance of treble which most "real" audiophiles do not have. No, the age thing is not the issue, as I hear just a bit over 15khz. I just hear treble differently, and enjoy it when done well. Always find insulting the ageism often exhibited by *some* earphones fans regarding treble. A few of us just like it, and the elderly also have the right to love whatever they do (BTW, I am not properly "old," though also not young-but even as a kid/teen, LOVED treble response.)
Much respect to you and the gentlemen that post the videos, no argument meant at all. Just feel free to disagree without conflict.
Great video
great video. appreciate the knowledge. can face id measure the outer ear? if they get any better with volume level EQ id have to switch to iphone and let go of wavelet.
My personal opinion on this...
There are 2 reasons for one to use IEM:
1) When one is an artist;
2) They are (way) cheaper.
What about binaural recordings? How would they affect IEM vs headphones? Would you get a double effect with headphones or is the pinna effect removed post recording?
Most binaural recordings compensate for the HRTF (including the pinna effects)
The Blessing 2 Dusk is widely regarded as a very warm, calm sounding IEM, but the resonance peak sounded extremely sharp and sibilant to my ear canals.
The only way to attenuate it was to use Spring Tips, which are quite short and made the nozzle go deeper which probably shifted the resonance peak to an acceptable place to me. This also happened to dms, but it's not a common thing reported for this IEM.
I can't use any Moondrop IEMs (tested Variations, Blessing 2, Chu 2) without decreasing volumes at ~ 3k-5k. I was too lazy to try to fix it with tip-rolling. Maybe my long european male earcanals are not compatible with the ones Moondrops were calibrated too?
Even at 57, it's a delight to be educated on something new. Back in the early 80's school was boring because we were taught by teachers that didn't want to be there. My parents told me that real education starts when we enter the workplace, very true although something else also eventually came along..... UA-cam.
IEM is the best value.
Open back = Good in a silent room.
Closed back = Good in silent and noisy room.
IEM = Good in a silent room and noisy room and portable.
2:58 I'm hesitant to take harman research at face value in this case. Given how controversial harmans in ear target is be it bc of the limited sample size, coupler limitations or simply limiting people to a single variable/bad initial curve.
Harmans research also uses a very limited array of iems/headohones, as their research has those as controls not independants. It could be that harmans IEMs had a poor array of tips
My point isn't that it's wrong to say IEMs have a large variancce when it comes to how they interact with HRTF, rather that the harman data is not a useful tool to demonstrate or compare this
Well, there are a number of potential reasons why the IE curve ended up the way that it did, but I'd agree that there are issues with it. The inclusion of it in this video is to supplement the main point. I do believe that with a more comprehensive study with rigs that use more accurate acoustic Z, we'd end up with closer results between in ear and over ear. But that is part of the point of this video.
I don't like the IEM cables or fit tbh. Not very comfy or nice to handle. If my old Sony MX650 earphones hadn't broken after a week I'd have kept them forever. Is it also normal to have horrible harsh treble with IEMs?
the biggest takeaway I got from this is that it’s pretty much mandatory to listen to a pair before buying, I haven’t been doing this but I think I definitely will be once I go up the pricing brackets…
i have no natural pinna gain (i have no idea how) so every iem that boosts 3k (almost all of them) sound incredibly shouty to me. makes it impossible looking for a good pair for me.
Yes, the only definitive solution is one where the IEM is top custom for each ear. I personally do notice a significant difference between my ears that becomes harder to notice the further away the sound source is (IEMs, evident; speakers or actual instrument, non noticeable at all)
4:38 the gras is just the standard is more than enough even tho it doesn't do the whole spectrum, either way in those very high frequencies there is not a lot of musical information and that's mostly the ambience of the headphone,
Also have to consider the gras system is been way longer than the 5128 just an a lot more stablished measured system, and also not all ppl listen to 20k so the bnk 5128 just work better in more specific cases with very young ppl even many young ppl dont listen that high. So the gras overtime just last more. Hopefully one day we find a treatment for hearing loss that day we all will use the bnk 5128 better.
We use both GRAS and B&K systems, and there is still utility in the older 711 standard. But what we found is that it's actually the low frequency information where the 5128's more accurate acoustic impedance is consequential. Dr. Olive has since also confirmed this difference. So for OE, the older standard is fine. But for IE data, particularly in the bass, the 5128 is really the better system to get an accurate read - especially when comparing BA driver and DD driver IEMs.
the Sub bass on moondrop variation is so good and I love it, but the problem I have with that IEM is the vocals always feel too thine for me
Just EQ it
I'm not an audiophile, but I can read these graphs etc. Basically, what I gathered from this video was that due to variances in human biology and the construction of everyone's unique ears, there is no way for ANYONE to make a single item that can definitively be considered better than one of similar quality. In fact, it seems as though, you could put 10 different people inside a recording studio, while a song is being recorded, and their auditory composition and the way their brain processes those signals will mean that the song being recorded will actually sound different to each of them in minor ways.
Just get something you "like" and you think sounds good to you. That's it!
My issue with these things is that They either fall out after a few seconds or they become very uncomfortable after a few minutes :(
nah I'll still look for graphs.
ı know that they are not perfect. but I know that I like a bass that starts from 250hz in 5128 measurments. my ear anatomy might be different but this is not an issue in here: if you can measure a 14 minutes 34 seconds in an unsynchronized clock would that make a difference ? no. this is the same with graphs.
its a nice way to quantify our preferences. and we should use it.
I can't imagine any of my IEMs ever having all the magic that my headphones have, but damn if IEMs aren't great for a lot of things... Being able to rock out with such punch, detail, clarity etc while I shop for eggs and milk is pretty fkn awesome.
another great video, thank you andrew
I refuse to use any IEM without some kind of EQ. IEMs tuned to Harman in ear (like Moondrop) or even the new B&K target still sound WAY too forward from 3 kHz - 6 kHz for me compared to the rest of the frequency range. Using sine sweeps confirms just how forward those frequencies are for my personal ears and HRTF. Even compared to the HD600 it's too forward for me.
This is why you should use population average for EQ
Headphone bass also acts as bone conduction in IEMs. It vibrates a lot of air that moves vibrates your bones from around th ear. That's why Iems have bass shelves and headphones don't. That's why speakers have 10x more bass that headphones when they measure the same. This is just my theory.
Can't you just tailor the sound to fit your anatomy with EQ?
Sorry in for the stupid question, I'm new to the field.
That was awesome. Is anyone working on taking 3D ear canal scans and mapping them to hrtf etc?
by the same token, would speakers be even better than headphones? because headphones cups could press on the pinna and alter its effect… 🤔