The comments about apologists and polemicists are so spot on. I appreciate Dr. Allison's approach to parallel accounts of resurrection or theologies of theophany and incarnation. As John Henry Newman so articulately points out, parallels to the resurrection or any Christian truth for that matter, are not at all theologically dangerous.
What’s with the sudden video edit at 40:49? In the book Allison makes a big deal out of Matthew 27:51 (The Jerusalem tombs opening up and The dead crawling out) being historical fiction but that Matthew believed the story. Allison gets cut off while he is talking about this, or that’s what the jump cut suggests. That seems a big issue (especially given that Allison repeatedly reminds us that the historical record in general is “scanty.” Given this scantiness, the fact that some of the material that we do have is false becomes an even bigger problem.) Mike, could you post the unedited portion somewhere? or at least let us know that it was not significant? Very interesting book and interview you are doing. I look forward to the watching next two parts.
Dale, as you alluded to Fatima in your video, is interesting to read this: I found the work of a journalist who reported to an old literary publication that had the testimony of one of the main Portuguese figures of that period, Antonio Sérgio who was the founder of a Portuguese cultural magazine, professor of philosophy, and Minister is Mr. image on paper money. Imagine that someone had the power to erase this testimony and we would have a situation similar to what happened in the early days of Christianity. The strange thing is that this testimony, and others that exist, are unknown to the majority of the public, pay attention to his description of what happened, he realized perfectly that he was facing a power of suggestion similar to what James Randi often alluded to: The famous writer António Sérgio was also at Cova de Iria on the 13th of October, “accompanying his wife”. Four years after starting to collaborate at Seara Nova, Sérgio was already the living embodiment of “rationalism”. As you would expect, it was not difficult to create an explanation for the famous “dance of the sun”, witnessed by thousands of people on the afternoon of October 13: "When looking at the sun, when it burst from the clouds, he noticed that there were still, misting it, light flakes, which, touched by the plowing, had become cloudy, causing rotating movements that were nothing wonderful." But the "devout crowd, suggested by Lúcia's cry, she had fallen to her knees. ”It turns out that for many believers, the“ solar phenomenon ”was fundamental, not for itself, but for its context: a witness heard by the parish priest of Fátima declared that months later, on February 2 of 1918, “he saw identical signs in the sun to those of October 13th (1917).” But the “signs” of the 13th had been predicted by the visionaries and had happened before “fifty thousand people.” That was what convinced him of that the phenomenon, natural in February, would have been supernatural in October.
I can’t wait for this book. Dr Licona, your large book was so helpful in grounding my Christian faith in rationality and evidence. Dale Allison’s 2005 book was also one of the best discussions I have read on this topic because it dealt with both sides of the argument fairly.
I think Dr. Allison's argument around the passion predictions, even if we take them as historical, is a bit irrelevant - e.g., it doesn't shift the probability in either direction. Just as those predictions could front-load Jesus' followers with the expectation of resurrection, and some might seek to force-fit the events in the aftermath of his death in search of their fulfillment, there's also a strong tradition in Judaism denouncing false prophets, hinging one's reputation *as* a prophet on accuracy of predictions, etc. It seems historically sound to say that accusations of being a false prophet were already being leveled against Jesus in his ministry. So as much as a the hypothetical "true believer" might desire for those prophecies to be fulfilled and thus themselves "see" or exaggerate evidence of such fulfillment, without strong evidence in its favor, they might just as well see a lack of evidence for a real resurrection, as a radical disconfirmation of his prophetic status, just as, along the lines that Wright argues, the crucifixion itself would be a radical disconfirmation of any Messianic claims on the part of an individual or his followers. It was the appearances, perhaps combined with the empty tomb, that made the difference. The immediacy with which Alison's own reconstruction supposes that the disciples came to believe in the resurrection also seems to make Alison's scenario less probable. If there are actually grounds for belief in the fulfillment of the passion predictions, its much more likely that belief in Jesus would continue. We also have to take into account matters around the historicity of the disciples fleeing/abandoning Jesus and losing faith, during the passion. The greater the likelihood of these aspects, the harder it is to suppose they had any real concrete grasp of the meaning of the passion predictions (whatever their original form took). Its understandable that they would lose heart, and fall into disbelief, if the public shaming of Jesus cuts against the grain of their expectations somewhat. If we chalk it up to being suddenly overcome by fear for their own wellbeing, rather than being surprised by something unexpected, we have to reconcile this with the fact that his earliest followers had very little problem encountering the same such risk almost immediately after these events and moving forward.
Another component to the 1 Corinthians 15 quote is that the Corinthians is the only book where Paul lists speaking in tongues as a spiritual gift. The Corinthians were clearly practitioners of ecstatic worship, much like modern day charismatic Christians, and this increases the odds that this was an ecstatic vision as Dale here implies. Perfect.
I know that this is off the main topic but I was really surprised about Mike saying that WLC held the A-theory of time in tension with his Molinism. I was unaware of any tension.
Dr. Licona, is there a way to email you about a scripture question? I’m leading a Bible Study about Phillip and the Ethiopian Eunuch and wondered where the Eunuch would have gotten the Isaiah 53 scripture he was reading? Were sections of scripture sold in markets? We’re they expensive? Thanks for your help, love your channel!
Given the serendipitous nature of the passage he happened to be reading right when Philip walked by, it may be a planted story used by the author of acts to be able to explain how Jesus fulfills Isaiah 53. Especially with the blatant question that the eunuch asked a complete stranger that perfectly led to Philip sharing the gospel and then literally teleporting away after his baptism. Could just be a coincidence but who knows. In that case, this may be a literary device rather than history, and thus where he got the scroll didn’t matter to the author.
That self awareness of Dale's with multiple personalities could be a Gret analogy of the Trinity. .. jokes aside great interview. Very honest guy. Can't wait for the third part. Keep up the good work Mike!!
Why is the goofy story of the Ascension not an equal central puzzle of the NT to the Resurection? The subject of the Ascension is studiously avoided by scholars.
You are forgetting the disciples had witnessed a gory death of the saviour...... Roman Empire on one end and religious leaders on another end..... What would be their condition jus imagine.
Mike...next time please shut up! It's not about you. Ask questions and let the guest talk. Also it is super funny how in this interview when he says there might be fiction in the gospels regarding the dead coming to life, you edit part of the video out 🤔
The comments about apologists and polemicists are so spot on. I appreciate Dr. Allison's approach to parallel accounts of resurrection or theologies of theophany and incarnation. As John Henry Newman so articulately points out, parallels to the resurrection or any Christian truth for that matter, are not at all theologically dangerous.
I greatly appreciate the honesty and clarity of both Mike and Dale. Thank you for these interviews.
What’s with the sudden video edit at 40:49? In the book Allison makes a big deal out of Matthew 27:51 (The Jerusalem tombs opening up and The dead crawling out) being historical fiction but that Matthew believed the story. Allison gets cut off while he is talking about this, or that’s what the jump cut suggests.
That seems a big issue (especially given that Allison repeatedly reminds us that the historical record in general is “scanty.” Given this scantiness, the fact that some of the material that we do have is false becomes an even bigger problem.)
Mike, could you post the unedited portion somewhere? or at least let us know that it was not significant?
Very interesting book and interview you are doing. I look forward to the watching next two parts.
Thanks, Mike! This was a great interview. Excited to read Dr. Allison's book and looking forward to part 3!
This was great! Hope you are well Jonathan! (One of two messianic Jews)
Thanks, Charlie! I'm doing well. Hope you are too!
Dale, as you alluded to Fatima in your video, is interesting to read this: I found the work of a journalist who reported to an old literary publication that had the testimony of one of the main Portuguese figures of that period, Antonio Sérgio who was the founder of a Portuguese cultural magazine, professor of philosophy, and Minister is Mr. image on paper money. Imagine that someone had the power to erase this testimony and we would have a situation similar to what happened in the early days of Christianity. The strange thing is that this testimony, and others that exist, are unknown to the majority of the public, pay attention to his description of what happened, he realized perfectly that he was facing a power of suggestion similar to what James Randi often alluded to:
The famous writer António Sérgio was also at Cova de Iria on the 13th of October, “accompanying his wife”.
Four years after starting to collaborate at Seara Nova, Sérgio was already the living embodiment of “rationalism”. As you would expect, it was not difficult to create an explanation for the famous “dance of the sun”, witnessed by thousands of people on the afternoon of October 13:
"When looking at the sun, when it burst from the clouds, he noticed that there were still, misting it, light flakes, which, touched by the plowing, had become cloudy, causing rotating movements that were nothing wonderful." But the "devout crowd, suggested by Lúcia's cry, she had fallen to her knees. ”It turns out that for many believers, the“ solar phenomenon ”was fundamental, not for itself, but for its context: a witness heard by the parish priest of Fátima declared that months later, on February 2 of 1918, “he saw identical signs in the sun to those of October 13th (1917).” But the “signs” of the 13th had been predicted by the visionaries and had happened before “fifty thousand people.” That was what convinced him of that the phenomenon, natural in February, would have been supernatural in October.
I can’t wait for this book. Dr Licona, your large book was so helpful in grounding my Christian faith in rationality and evidence. Dale Allison’s 2005 book was also one of the best discussions I have read on this topic because it dealt with both sides of the argument fairly.
Thanks Mike it was an interesting discussion with Dale Allison and looking forwards to the next part :)
I think Dr. Allison's argument around the passion predictions, even if we take them as historical, is a bit irrelevant - e.g., it doesn't shift the probability in either direction. Just as those predictions could front-load Jesus' followers with the expectation of resurrection, and some might seek to force-fit the events in the aftermath of his death in search of their fulfillment, there's also a strong tradition in Judaism denouncing false prophets, hinging one's reputation *as* a prophet on accuracy of predictions, etc. It seems historically sound to say that accusations of being a false prophet were already being leveled against Jesus in his ministry. So as much as a the hypothetical "true believer" might desire for those prophecies to be fulfilled and thus themselves "see" or exaggerate evidence of such fulfillment, without strong evidence in its favor, they might just as well see a lack of evidence for a real resurrection, as a radical disconfirmation of his prophetic status, just as, along the lines that Wright argues, the crucifixion itself would be a radical disconfirmation of any Messianic claims on the part of an individual or his followers. It was the appearances, perhaps combined with the empty tomb, that made the difference. The immediacy with which Alison's own reconstruction supposes that the disciples came to believe in the resurrection also seems to make Alison's scenario less probable. If there are actually grounds for belief in the fulfillment of the passion predictions, its much more likely that belief in Jesus would continue.
We also have to take into account matters around the historicity of the disciples fleeing/abandoning Jesus and losing faith, during the passion. The greater the likelihood of these aspects, the harder it is to suppose they had any real concrete grasp of the meaning of the passion predictions (whatever their original form took). Its understandable that they would lose heart, and fall into disbelief, if the public shaming of Jesus cuts against the grain of their expectations somewhat. If we chalk it up to being suddenly overcome by fear for their own wellbeing, rather than being surprised by something unexpected, we have to reconcile this with the fact that his earliest followers had very little problem encountering the same such risk almost immediately after these events and moving forward.
Another component to the 1 Corinthians 15 quote is that the Corinthians is the only book where Paul lists speaking in tongues as a spiritual gift. The Corinthians were clearly practitioners of ecstatic worship, much like modern day charismatic Christians, and this increases the odds that this was an ecstatic vision as Dale here implies. Perfect.
I know that this is off the main topic but I was really surprised about Mike saying that WLC held the A-theory of time in tension with his Molinism. I was unaware of any tension.
Heck yeah! Allison’s book was so insightful
He is smart guy. No question
Dr. Licona, is there a way to email you about a scripture question? I’m leading a Bible Study about Phillip and the Ethiopian Eunuch and wondered where the Eunuch would have gotten the Isaiah 53 scripture he was reading? Were sections of scripture sold in markets? We’re they expensive? Thanks for your help, love your channel!
Given the serendipitous nature of the passage he happened to be reading right when Philip walked by, it may be a planted story used by the author of acts to be able to explain how Jesus fulfills Isaiah 53. Especially with the blatant question that the eunuch asked a complete stranger that perfectly led to Philip sharing the gospel and then literally teleporting away after his baptism. Could just be a coincidence but who knows.
In that case, this may be a literary device rather than history, and thus where he got the scroll didn’t matter to the author.
That self awareness of Dale's with multiple personalities could be a Gret analogy of the Trinity. .. jokes aside great interview. Very honest guy. Can't wait for the third part. Keep up the good work Mike!!
Why is the goofy story of the Ascension not an equal central puzzle of the NT to the Resurection? The subject of the Ascension is studiously avoided by scholars.
You are forgetting the disciples had witnessed a gory death of the saviour...... Roman Empire on one end and religious leaders on another end..... What would be their condition jus imagine.
Mike...next time please shut up! It's not about you. Ask questions and let the guest talk. Also it is super funny how in this interview when he says there might be fiction in the gospels regarding the dead coming to life, you edit part of the video out 🤔
MIGHT.
There is no evidence to support the dead coming to life. That doesn't mean it didn't happen.