Good advice, just the quandary i was considering, my opinion was surely old America is better than new Chinese. But there is a real factor in how it was kept.
Old America is best if you know what to look for and how to adjust it. Most old mills have not had their Gibs adjusted in decades and doing that will tell you allot about their condition.
I live in another continent. And therefore allot of things is different. MT/R8 is soo oldschool, - Iso 30/40/50 are the standard for manual machines, and are in many ways superior (R8 is OK for small endmills and so, that fits inside) but still similar collets are used in ISO spindles. Kurt vises are also way to big compared to it's opening. It's height can easily destroy some Z travel on small machines. Take a look at the Sagop/Gerardi design. Its way better, - lower profile and open up way more. Depending on what you do, what you want to make and have as experience. - mass is key to a good stable machine. So, weight is key. Ofc a full scale Bridgeport is more capable than the shown in the video. Here Bridgeport's isn't rare, but they are not the first choice, because of it's lack of rigidity. It's a fantastic machine. But for prototyping and such, tool room mills are more used. "European style" - Decker, Maho, Schaublin, Aciera, mikron, TOS and many more are in a total other league than this. And even used, better. And still cheaper than a Asian one. I know they aren't common overseas. But if you ever come across one. Buy it ... (I have had many toolroom mills, and Bridgeport) So I know what I'm talking about 🙂 But it's always a compromise against avability and price/needs. Some want a nice machine, some only want the parts it's produce 😅 Best regards
Excellent comments and thank you for the insights. I am mostly familiar with the machines and vises redily available in the US. I will have to look up and check out some of the machines you mentioned that I have not seen. The R8 spindle is old school at this point and not as rigid as the CAT style taper tooling but it has a few advantages that make it faster to change tools for prototyping work. I imagine eventually it may slowly dissapear or be replaced with an upgrade.
Another thing to keep in mind is that in the US, the smallest machines (benchtop and small floor mills) tend to be R8 but pretty much all the industrial tool room/prototyping machines are sold with CAT/BT30 spindles like PROTO TRAK, FRYER, MILLTRONICS, etc.
Mainly just get what you want. You can always upgrade. I am new to machining but always wanted to learn on a BP. So that’s what I got. My upgrade was a DRO. I also purchased a LeBlond Regal 13x30 lathe. I am really happy with both.
I started with a pretty small bench top mill and regretted my decision almost immediately when I got a dividing head that didn't fit underneath the quill. Now I have two milling machines and regret it less as I can leave that one set up with jigs for certain small tasks and do most of my stuff on the bigger machine.
That said I will probably still get rid of my small mill when I can afford it and get a second decent sized milling machine so I only have one size of tooling.
I just upgraded from an 8" drill press to a 17" model; the 8" started off well until it started stalling on larger bits, then the bit was to big to fit over the piece especially on the table, which caused a whole bunch of other issues 😅... you get the idea lol. It's good to start small unless you already know that your committed to machining, if so, go at least medium sized so that you can use it for a longer time to do bigger projects 😉
Yeah you generally want to go as big and best as you can manage. I noticed that when we moved out of our tiny space, almost all the tiny machines we had disappeared within a few years and were replaced with bigger ones.
A big part of making a decision on which mill to get is being realistic about what you need/want it to do. In my case, making engine accessory(AC, PS, alternator, etc) and clutch slave cylinder brackets for motor/trans swaps or stuff like throttle body spacers, a decent bench top mill is more than adequate. Nothing I do requires aerospace levels of accuracy or fast production times. Over the last 2 decades I've made dozens of such brackets out of aluminum with little more than a drill press, bandsaw and trim router. The same goes for lathes. I'd love enough capacity to machine Dana 60 axle tubes for inner seals but I simply don't have the room for a machine that large. On the occasions I do need stuff like that done I'm OK with paying a commercial shop. To that end, I recently picked up a used RF45 clone for $1500. I should be able to do the CNC conversion(with an enclosure and flood coolant) plus buy a ton of tooling for about half the price of a "standard package" Tormach 770. I'm also looking at the PM-1228 lathe as it has enough capacity for my usual needs(such as making threaded inserts for trailing arm rod ends) while not taking up too much real estate in my small workspace. By all means, one should try to get the biggest machine that fits their space and budget. Small jobs are obviously easier to do on big machines than big jobs are on small machines but also be realistic.
my benchtops do most jobs, but just lately ive gotten obsessed with 250 I4s, doing valve jobs... and guess what? with a 5inch face mill i can JUST face a head. i have basically 10mm clearance at either end... would much rather have a bridgie for that... run a 10 inch and have plenty of room... and i definitely dont trust my quill lock to stay locked... just stuffed a job on the last step the other day when it did that to me... effin! last bit of stock too! so im not about to try and skim any heads just yet.
Great discussion with a lot of salient points. There's a lot to be said for investing one's time and money into a "real" industrial-class machine, but smaller and lighter can actually be better in some circumstances. I recently got a 950-lb Taiwan knee mill. Not as fancy as yours, but was a fraction of the prices, and it's in quite good condition for a 43 year-old mill. Was it the best choice? Idk, but I'm stoked to have it.
Great to hear. I am glad you liked the video and that you are happy with your machine find. Whatever gets you going and excited is the right machine for you at that time.
There is one thing to be aware of with used Bridgeport Mills they did not necessarily use standard bearings for the quill often they modified the bearings by honing the inner race to suit the quill shaft all Bridgeports were assembled by Fitting and hence were often custom fit by the factory before being released for sale. That is why Bridgeports had a great reputation for accuracy from new and of course that potentially does not apply for used machinery. Whilst many Asian especially small benchtop mills require fettling to give their best like the multitude of small lathes also we pay the price knowing that in most cases.
Interesting. I did not know they were custom fitted. I used to work with a guy that was a master at rebuilding Bridgeport spindles but I did not get any of the secrets about the process. I have been told that Hardinge would customize the bearing fit in their spindles and that is one of the reasons most people are not willing to try rebuilding them on their own.
If you get a smaller mill and find that you need a larger one, you do have the passive benefit of being able to use your small mill for grinding operations. Tape up the ways, set up some mist coolant, and use a cup wheel on an arbor. It's a lot nicer than using a bench grinder.
@@TigermothRacingTV Yes, I followed exactly what Joe Pieczynski did on his channel. It's best for broaches and very light finishing cuts on hardened shafts. You can also use this concept to get the visual appearance of blanchard grinding.
I've come back to this video several times ,I've been torn between a larger bench-top mill & an 8" x 32" even larger mill (nearly 2x the weight, I think I'm going with the larger mill.
One thing to remember is that a bench top mill takes up almost the same floor space as a knee mill. So if you were to go with the bench top mill there is usually a non negotiable factor involved like getting it in a basement or other moving restrictions or rigid space restrictions. The heavier mills will always cut nicer and more quickly.
You made some very good points here. As a hobby machinist I simply don’t have the room for a full sized knee mill. My shop is in my basement and getting a Bridgeport down there is a no go. Also, I’ve been told that most of the used full sized machines that come from job shops are used to the point of being worn too much for their own needs or needing repairs so it’s just easier for them to replace them. I use a large dovetail column mill/drill at work and find that it works fine for my needs so I plan to get my own soon.
Yeah... Similar situation. Basement workshop with no outside the house access. Thankfully I don't need a bigger machine, but I too have found that shopping used Bridgeports is a hit or miss endeavor. Most of the ones that are priced in the range of the bench top machine I'm looking to buy, are totally roached and need major rebuilding (scraping of the ways, table and all new bearings throughout) to be able to achieve the degree of accuracy the smaller bench top machine. But if you have the $$$ for a new Bridgeport clone, or a fully rebuilt Bridgeport, then you're on a whole different level of capability, which believe me, I'd love to have that option... Used to work with a Bridgeport in the tool room of my last job and it would be a great machine to have in a home shop.
@@WHJeffB I’ve also been told that the secret to being satisfied with using a benchtop mill is never running a full sized knee mill. Since I never have I won’t notice the difference.
@@robertpearson8798 I've used Bridgeports and much smaller hobby sized bench top machines (In my home shop... Sherline and Taig). Being aware of the limitations is key to being satisfied with the smaller machines once you've had the pleasure of using a Bridgeport. Knowing that you can't take heavy cuts (patience is a virtue here) and that smaller machines lack some of the capability will get you most of the way towards being OK with the smaller machine. Luckily my needs for the future don't require a Bridgeport sized machine and a square column bench top mill will more than suffice, but believe me, if the right machine comes available at a reasonable price, I'll make space in the garage for it!
I started with a new grizzly benchtop mill (R8) w/dro...after encountering some critical no-go problems with it, right out of the box, I got a refund and rolled it into a Bridgeport... glad I did, I wasn't limited by anything and there were basically zero limitations in what I could do. That said, the small machines have their place. you need to know what you ultimately want to do. Regardless of size, if you're going to be doing a lot of things, get a DRO.
Yes the DRO is a game changer. Sounds like your journey brought you to a good place. Sometimes knowing what you want to make is hard when you are starting out.
Great content! CNC for hobbyists is way over talked IMO. Unless going into production it’s not needed and adds more work. Also never really considered the z shift of a knee mill. The table top Wong Fu style is well known for this problem due to lack of dovetails but it’s an issue as well with knee mills. Great stuff to consider.
That used to be true years ago, I'd spend a few days programming a part in the 80s that free cam software can program in seconds now. So one off complicated parts on a hobby cnc is very easy, and I do it all the time.
If you don't have your heart set on one in particular, go by size of the travel that will easily fit what you want to do. Then make sure it is not a round column machine and go within your budget. There are indeed allot to choose from.
I have a Bridgeport, and love it, but if I ever move, and no longer have a shop large enough for a full sized mill, that HF 626 is exactly what I'd look for. Its really the perfect mill for most hobby shop guys, if truth be told.
If you have a garage to put it and no steps buy a big one unfortunately i put my smaller pm25v clone in a different room and i can take it apart to move it anywhere
Yes, what space you have to put a machine is a huge factor for sure. The more micro barriers that you put in the way of using your machine will also drastically reduce how often you use it.
You mean can a round or square column mill produce parts like a knee mill? It really depends on the size of the machine you are talking about. I am going to assume you are talking about comparing benchtop manual mills only. The knee mill is the most universal and capable, and they are usually the best quality of that size, but the small ones are not common. Generally never buy a round column mill. They are just not worth it. They are usually not rigid. Any of the bed or square column mills are good, the bigger the better. You can get a benchtop square column mill with nearly Bridgeport travels on it. A CNC square column benchtop mill will run circles around any manual bridgeport.
Hi Just found your channel, the grizzly machine you show is sold in the uk under the brand Chester machine’s, I have just purchased one secondhand and am awaiting delivery as we speak, your video was very useful as previously I had a machine with an ER25 collet holder so as you can imagine much smaller, so to me although you call it small it’s large lol, thankyou and I have subscribed
Thank you, glad the video was helpful. That machine is a great modern alternative to the old Rockwell and Clausing mills. I think you will be happy with it.
Aiyaiyai. A bit boring? Isnt it? Monotone monologue kind of switches the ears off. Stop talking and show some actual machining variations between the various machines. But it was well done. Dont be discouraged.
Good advice, just the quandary i was considering, my opinion was surely old America is better than new Chinese. But there is a real factor in how it was kept.
Old America is best if you know what to look for and how to adjust it. Most old mills have not had their Gibs adjusted in decades and doing that will tell you allot about their condition.
I live in another continent. And therefore allot of things is different.
MT/R8 is soo oldschool, - Iso 30/40/50 are the standard for manual machines, and are in many ways superior (R8 is OK for small endmills and so, that fits inside) but still similar collets are used in ISO spindles.
Kurt vises are also way to big compared to it's opening. It's height can easily destroy some Z travel on small machines.
Take a look at the Sagop/Gerardi design. Its way better, - lower profile and open up way more.
Depending on what you do, what you want to make and have as experience. - mass is key to a good stable machine. So, weight is key. Ofc a full scale Bridgeport is more capable than the shown in the video.
Here Bridgeport's isn't rare, but they are not the first choice, because of it's lack of rigidity.
It's a fantastic machine.
But for prototyping and such, tool room mills are more used. "European style" - Decker, Maho, Schaublin, Aciera, mikron, TOS and many more are in a total other league than this. And even used, better. And still cheaper than a Asian one.
I know they aren't common overseas. But if you ever come across one. Buy it ...
(I have had many toolroom mills, and Bridgeport) So I know what I'm talking about 🙂
But it's always a compromise against avability and price/needs. Some want a nice machine, some only want the parts it's produce 😅
Best regards
Excellent comments and thank you for the insights. I am mostly familiar with the machines and vises redily available in the US. I will have to look up and check out some of the machines you mentioned that I have not seen.
The R8 spindle is old school at this point and not as rigid as the CAT style taper tooling but it has a few advantages that make it faster to change tools for prototyping work. I imagine eventually it may slowly dissapear or be replaced with an upgrade.
Another thing to keep in mind is that in the US, the smallest machines (benchtop and small floor mills) tend to be R8 but pretty much all the industrial tool room/prototyping machines are sold with CAT/BT30 spindles like PROTO TRAK, FRYER, MILLTRONICS, etc.
yes sir this is one of the better videos covering this topic good job
Glad you think so!
Mainly just get what you want. You can always upgrade. I am new to machining but always wanted to learn on a BP. So that’s what I got. My upgrade was a DRO. I also purchased a LeBlond Regal 13x30 lathe. I am really happy with both.
Excellent choices, glad to hear!
I started with a pretty small bench top mill and regretted my decision almost immediately when I got a dividing head that didn't fit underneath the quill. Now I have two milling machines and regret it less as I can leave that one set up with jigs for certain small tasks and do most of my stuff on the bigger machine.
That said I will probably still get rid of my small mill when I can afford it and get a second decent sized milling machine so I only have one size of tooling.
Lol that's a common experience. It is tempting to start small but we tend to need bigger pretty quickly!
I just upgraded from an 8" drill press to a 17" model; the 8" started off well until it started stalling on larger bits, then the bit was to big to fit over the piece especially on the table, which caused a whole bunch of other issues 😅... you get the idea lol. It's good to start small unless you already know that your committed to machining, if so, go at least medium sized so that you can use it for a longer time to do bigger projects 😉
Yeah you generally want to go as big and best as you can manage. I noticed that when we moved out of our tiny space, almost all the tiny machines we had disappeared within a few years and were replaced with bigger ones.
A big part of making a decision on which mill to get is being realistic about what you need/want it to do. In my case, making engine accessory(AC, PS, alternator, etc) and clutch slave cylinder brackets for motor/trans swaps or stuff like throttle body spacers, a decent bench top mill is more than adequate. Nothing I do requires aerospace levels of accuracy or fast production times. Over the last 2 decades I've made dozens of such brackets out of aluminum with little more than a drill press, bandsaw and trim router.
The same goes for lathes. I'd love enough capacity to machine Dana 60 axle tubes for inner seals but I simply don't have the room for a machine that large. On the occasions I do need stuff like that done I'm OK with paying a commercial shop.
To that end, I recently picked up a used RF45 clone for $1500. I should be able to do the CNC conversion(with an enclosure and flood coolant) plus buy a ton of tooling for about half the price of a "standard package" Tormach 770. I'm also looking at the PM-1228 lathe as it has enough capacity for my usual needs(such as making threaded inserts for trailing arm rod ends) while not taking up too much real estate in my small workspace.
By all means, one should try to get the biggest machine that fits their space and budget. Small jobs are obviously easier to do on big machines than big jobs are on small machines but also be realistic.
my benchtops do most jobs, but just lately ive gotten obsessed with 250 I4s, doing valve jobs... and guess what? with a 5inch face mill i can JUST face a head. i have basically 10mm clearance at either end... would much rather have a bridgie for that... run a 10 inch and have plenty of room... and i definitely dont trust my quill lock to stay locked... just stuffed a job on the last step the other day when it did that to me... effin! last bit of stock too!
so im not about to try and skim any heads just yet.
Great discussion with a lot of salient points. There's a lot to be said for investing one's time and money into a "real" industrial-class machine, but smaller and lighter can actually be better in some circumstances. I recently got a 950-lb Taiwan knee mill. Not as fancy as yours, but was a fraction of the prices, and it's in quite good condition for a 43 year-old mill. Was it the best choice? Idk, but I'm stoked to have it.
Great to hear. I am glad you liked the video and that you are happy with your machine find. Whatever gets you going and excited is the right machine for you at that time.
There is one thing to be aware of with used Bridgeport Mills they did not necessarily use standard bearings for the quill often they modified the bearings by honing the inner race to suit the quill shaft all Bridgeports were assembled by Fitting and hence were often custom fit by the factory before being released for sale.
That is why Bridgeports had a great reputation for accuracy from new and of course that potentially does not apply for used machinery.
Whilst many Asian especially small benchtop mills require fettling to give their best like the multitude of small lathes also we pay the price knowing that in most cases.
Interesting. I did not know they were custom fitted. I used to work with a guy that was a master at rebuilding Bridgeport spindles but I did not get any of the secrets about the process.
I have been told that Hardinge would customize the bearing fit in their spindles and that is one of the reasons most people are not willing to try rebuilding them on their own.
If you get a smaller mill and find that you need a larger one, you do have the passive benefit of being able to use your small mill for grinding operations. Tape up the ways, set up some mist coolant, and use a cup wheel on an arbor. It's a lot nicer than using a bench grinder.
I have wanted to try that with a 3 axis cnc mill to grind special form tools. Do you use this setup for grinding cutting tools?
@@TigermothRacingTV Yes, I followed exactly what Joe Pieczynski did on his channel. It's best for broaches and very light finishing cuts on hardened shafts. You can also use this concept to get the visual appearance of blanchard grinding.
I've come back to this video several times ,I've been torn between a larger bench-top mill & an 8" x 32" even larger mill (nearly 2x the weight, I think I'm going with the larger mill.
One thing to remember is that a bench top mill takes up almost the same floor space as a knee mill. So if you were to go with the bench top mill there is usually a non negotiable factor involved like getting it in a basement or other moving restrictions or rigid space restrictions. The heavier mills will always cut nicer and more quickly.
@TigermothRacingTV thank you. This helps even more.
Thank you. Interesting perspective.
You made some very good points here. As a hobby machinist I simply don’t have the room for a full sized knee mill. My shop is in my basement and getting a Bridgeport down there is a no go. Also, I’ve been told that most of the used full sized machines that come from job shops are used to the point of being worn too much for their own needs or needing repairs so it’s just easier for them to replace them. I use a large dovetail column mill/drill at work and find that it works fine for my needs so I plan to get my own soon.
I think the dovetail column mills are much more rigid. We have a SYIL brand mill that has been excellent.
@@TigermothRacingTV And unlike the round column mills you don’t have to re-tram them every time you change the head height.
Yeah... Similar situation. Basement workshop with no outside the house access. Thankfully I don't need a bigger machine, but I too have found that shopping used Bridgeports is a hit or miss endeavor. Most of the ones that are priced in the range of the bench top machine I'm looking to buy, are totally roached and need major rebuilding (scraping of the ways, table and all new bearings throughout) to be able to achieve the degree of accuracy the smaller bench top machine.
But if you have the $$$ for a new Bridgeport clone, or a fully rebuilt Bridgeport, then you're on a whole different level of capability, which believe me, I'd love to have that option... Used to work with a Bridgeport in the tool room of my last job and it would be a great machine to have in a home shop.
@@WHJeffB I’ve also been told that the secret to being satisfied with using a benchtop mill is never running a full sized knee mill. Since I never have I won’t notice the difference.
@@robertpearson8798 I've used Bridgeports and much smaller hobby sized bench top machines (In my home shop... Sherline and Taig). Being aware of the limitations is key to being satisfied with the smaller machines once you've had the pleasure of using a Bridgeport. Knowing that you can't take heavy cuts (patience is a virtue here) and that smaller machines lack some of the capability will get you most of the way towards being OK with the smaller machine.
Luckily my needs for the future don't require a Bridgeport sized machine and a square column bench top mill will more than suffice, but believe me, if the right machine comes available at a reasonable price, I'll make space in the garage for it!
I started with a new grizzly benchtop mill (R8) w/dro...after encountering some critical no-go problems with it, right out of the box, I got a refund and rolled it into a Bridgeport... glad I did, I wasn't limited by anything and there were basically zero limitations in what I could do.
That said, the small machines have their place. you need to know what you ultimately want to do. Regardless of size, if you're going to be doing a lot of things, get a DRO.
Yes the DRO is a game changer. Sounds like your journey brought you to a good place. Sometimes knowing what you want to make is hard when you are starting out.
Great review , very appreciative for the info.
Glad it was helpful!
Great content! CNC for hobbyists is way over talked IMO. Unless going into production it’s not needed and adds more work. Also never really considered the z shift of a knee mill. The table top Wong Fu style is well known for this problem due to lack of dovetails but it’s an issue as well with knee mills. Great stuff to consider.
That used to be true years ago, I'd spend a few days programming a part in the 80s that free cam software can program in seconds now. So one off complicated parts on a hobby cnc is very easy, and I do it all the time.
Sage advice. Thank you.
One word, Mass.
I go to church.
This is the machine I want were did you buy the caster set to roll it around..
The mobil base is a Grizzly/Shop Fox product.
See our video on mobil bases..
Great! Nice your voice and nice machine
Just found your channel....very nicely done......thanks for sharing
Thanks for watching, Paul and welcome to our channel!
If I had the space, I would love that machine. I’m looking for a table top mill drill, mill any suggestions? I can’t pick one
And they’re not cheap
If you don't have your heart set on one in particular, go by size of the travel that will easily fit what you want to do. Then make sure it is not a round column machine and go within your budget. There are indeed allot to choose from.
Could you share the model of the power drawbar?
The yellow one is Torque-rite but I recommend the Kurt, they are more reliable.
I bought a used 6x26 Kneel Mill (Yes HF 90939)......skipped the BP....super little machine!
I have a Bridgeport, and love it, but if I ever move, and no longer have a shop large enough for a full sized mill, that HF 626 is exactly what I'd look for. Its really the perfect mill for most hobby shop guys, if truth be told.
Another excellent video. Thanks
Thank you, Gilles
If you have a garage to put it and no steps buy a big one unfortunately i put my smaller pm25v clone in a different room and i can take it apart to move it anywhere
Yes, what space you have to put a machine is a huge factor for sure. The more micro barriers that you put in the way of using your machine will also drastically reduce how often you use it.
Help!!!! I'm in-between a column drill mill vs a knee mill my question can the column drill mill produce parts like a drill mill
You mean can a round or square column mill produce parts like a knee mill? It really depends on the size of the machine you are talking about. I am going to assume you are talking about comparing benchtop manual mills only. The knee mill is the most universal and capable, and they are usually the best quality of that size, but the small ones are not common. Generally never buy a round column mill. They are just not worth it. They are usually not rigid. Any of the bed or square column mills are good, the bigger the better. You can get a benchtop square column mill with nearly Bridgeport travels on it. A CNC square column benchtop mill will run circles around any manual bridgeport.
Isn't the simplest answer size the machine to the size of the work?
I guess but what if you make a big variety of sizes of work?
Hi Just found your channel, the grizzly machine you show is sold in the uk under the brand Chester machine’s, I have just purchased one secondhand and am awaiting delivery as we speak, your video was very useful as previously I had a machine with an ER25 collet holder so as you can imagine much smaller, so to me although you call it small it’s large lol, thankyou and I have subscribed
Thank you, glad the video was helpful. That machine is a great modern alternative to the old Rockwell and Clausing mills. I think you will be happy with it.
Is grizzly the same as harbor freight?
Lol, no. I would say Grizzly is better but they both have useful stuff.
Video keeps jumping. Can’t watch. Sorry.
I only have one question, who does your nails?
Some useful information but ask your camera man to stand still
Thanks for the feedback. We try to show as much as we can instead of just me talking for most of the video.
I liked the moving camera 😊
This machine is now $7000.
Thats insane. You can still buy a used Bridgeport for 2k but you have to know what you are looking for.
Stop moving the camera!
No small mills are useless as are pen mills.
It really depends on your application. We started our business on a benchtop mill and made thousands of parts on it before getting something bigger.
Great vid, great points. I know I'm 2 years late to the game, so to speak, but this helped me think of additional considerations, so thank you!
Aiyaiyai. A bit boring? Isnt it? Monotone monologue kind of switches the ears off. Stop talking and show some actual machining variations between the various machines. But it was well done. Dont be discouraged.