How to Eliminate Feedback on the Double Bass
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- Опубліковано 28 лип 2024
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L#102 - How to Eliminate Feedback on the Double Bass
In this video, I share my top tips on eliminating feedback when playing the double bass. If you want to get a great amplified sound on your gigs without the annoying feedback check out my top tips!
It's also great to hear your experiences with taming feedback. How do you do it? Join the conversation in the comments below this video.
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Hi Geoff, thanks for your helpful video - I use gut strings with relatively high action on a big, old bohemian flatback orchestral bass! In my experience, the biggest secret is using placement in physical space to your advantage (i.e. bass and amplifier on opposite sides of your body) to prevent feedback loops, and placing the amplifier at a considerable distance (optimally 6 ft. or ca. 2 meters) where space allows. This gives you a better concept of the sound your audience or bandmates are hearing. Additionally, I use a preamp with sweepable mid and low end notch filters - that has been a real godsend, helping me to find and compress those problematic resonant frequencies (be it the tailpiece, body, pa-speaker cones or room) that vary in dominance when placing the same bass with the same setup & amplification in different physical environments. My two cents - keep up the good work!
I use a notch filter. My Acoustic Image Coda (800 Watt version) has a feedback knob that can work as either a High Pass or Notch filter. High Pass removes too much bottom for a good sound to me. My Acoustic BA1000 amp heads (I have two) also has a notch filter and a 7 band eq. I use a mark bass traveler two 10 config. I prefer the big bottom you get when you put it on the floor, but if on wood or hollow stage I decouple it from the floor with 4 bean bags. (This trick is also good for decoupling pa speaker stands and microphone stands from hollow floors). I turn the bass up louder than need6, set the phase for the least feedback/best focused sound, walk the bass up chromatically till I find most resonant pitch, dial in notch, tweak eq to remove harshness. The notch must be set with bass oriented as it will be while playing because my amp is right beside me to my right and distance and orientation will shift the resonant feed back pitch. Using this method I can play almost anywhere at any volume inside or outside and be loud enough
I would add:
Invert the signal. It means the wave form coming from the bass is inverted in relation to the one coming from the amp, and they cancel each other instead of feed back each other.
I get that with my Radial Engineering PZ DI.
I also use a Radial PZ direct box and it’s great. It uses phantom power from the board to boost your piezo signal (which the sound people appreciate), selectable resistance, a -15 db pad, high and low pass filters, and a through output with a selectable preamp to go to your amp.
The most effective way in really loud situation like playing fusion with lots drummers and guitarists, pop concerts in a stadium of 50,000 is to intertwine a cloth below the bridge to muffle the strings. It also gets rid of any wolf tones. Of course, for smaller acoustic settings, I like to hear and feel the resonance of the bass so I unmuffle or at least move the cloth closer to the tailpiece to allow more vibration.
I play in rockabilly bands and occasionally blues bands, I use a Rich Barbera pickup which cut down on feedback a lot but what really helped is when I switched to Acoustic Image Contra amps years ago and, more recently, their 'Ten2' amp - really do help with feedback control. I do put my left knee against the back of the bass but not pressed just rested - it also depends on what frequency is feeding back as to where you put your knee.
thanks Geoff, great tips. I am using the Fishman Platinum Pro. Often I am playing in a corner with a low ceiling. Your tip gave helped a lot.
All good ideas! What I do with good success is cut the low-end a bit, use a compressor and also to put foam in the F-holes starting with one hole on the treble side and if that is not enough or I need to use much more volume on the amp to plug both holes. With both holes plugged you can get electric bass type volume but still have the upright sound comes through nicely.
Also , like at 3:47 , the strings below speaking end of string , from bridge to saddle, can ring out like CRAZY!!!!! So if you get a high hz , the 7-8" section of G string ringing like crazy ...muting them by wrapping velcro
Great video, Geoff! Thanks
I play both loud and and quiet gigs and I'm using all these tricks on the loud ones, including sometimes stuffing the f-holes. I could use my EUB but I still prefer the sound and feel of a real hollow body bass when I play. When I need volume I use a KNA/DB-1 (bridge) Piezo and/or a Schaller 411 (neck) Magnetic, through a Tonebone PZ-Pre, into a Markbass 151P. At some point I accept that it will never be perfect, but it sounds pretty dang good to me and nobody's complaining.
Thanks so much for this very educational video.
Thank you for this Brother!
There's some fantastic advice here. Well worth a watch. Terrific Geoff thanks for this!!
Thanks Jan, I really appreciate that.
thanks for posting this! Feedback had been a huge issue for me, so looking forward to trying some of your suggestions
Thanks Sean, good luck trying them out. :-)
the fdeck hpf pre is awesome. I have it paired with the David Gage lifeline pickup. amazing. Thanks for sharing and keep up the great work
Thanks :-)
Great tips and advice. I came here because it’s the closest thing I could find, never much internet help on my acoustic 5-string acoustic bass guitar… I haven’t gigged in a while but want to and remembered I use to have so much issue with feedback… hoping some of these tips and gear suggestions will help.
I use a Krivo magnetic pick up... Haven't have any problems even at loud gigs.. I also have a piezo.. Don't use it very often.
That's some good advice Geoff, I'm glad you got into the more extreme ideas even though you may catch some flack, they can work in a pinch. It's really hard when your only monitor is your amp, but two other things to consider are eq and phase inversion. bassists tend to feel like it's all about the low end but especially as the volume gets louder you're better off lowering below about 300 to clean up the sound. If your amp or preamp has a phase or polarity switch, that can also eliminate feedback instantly without changing the sound at all. Cheers!
Thanks Gelen. That's a great point about the phase inversion. i will have to try that when I get to use an amp with that function. Plus, great point about the extreme low end. that's always been the biggest problem for me in terms of frequencies.
Geoff mentions at the end of his video about plugging the f holes with foam. Well I have been playing electric bass in quite a loud blues band for quite a few years, and have gone over to playing double bass in the past year. I had a hard time trying to get heard in the mix without getting horrendous feedback, so I bought a Fishman Platinum pro pre-amp which does help a lot, but I've also started making my own version of f hole plugs or covers. I find they really help, and would be great for anyone trying to be heard above the drums; Rockabilly bands come to mind. Please Google F-its feedbackblockers if you're interested.
After a few years of struggling with this exact problem I solved it over night once and for all and went back to my bass guitar. Leo Fender made a fortune for a reason! I have to admit to having a few moments of considering the Yamaha slb300. I might have to try one.
Yes those SLB 300s look great!
@@DiscoverDoubleBass How about doing a review? Compare to a decent upright etc.
Geoff, I'm surprised you didn't talk about distance from the cab and positioning yourself vis-a-vis the cab. If you're standing right in front of your cab, you are more likely to feedback. So the further away you can be, often the better. I also find there are times when I need to position my strings/neck on an angle between 25degrees to 90 degress (perpendicular) to the cab face. I've never tried putting the cab in front of me (instead of behind). I know that works with microphone feedback. Someone who has tried that maybe will comment too.
That's a great point Gary, positioning is key and can make all the difference. I've not tried the amp in front of me on double bass, but it certainly has to be worth experimenting with and it could help to keep the bass amp from being picked up by other microphones.
while I'm at it, I have successfully used the LR Baggs Venue preamp with my DB. It has a notch filter and 5-bands of eq. I'm still learning how to get the results I want with it. Each room is unique, and setup time is never enough for me, my band likes to setup and play within 30 minutes. It's always tweaking after the first song in the set for me, which is no way to really run your sound.
I might add I use the LR Baggs Venue preamp pedal in my rig. i've been learning how to adjust its notch and other filters. works well so far.
@@DiscoverDoubleBass Having the amp in front works incredibly well to the point that people tell you to turn down! Jim Mullen the jazz guitarist stands just behind his amp when he plays his big semi acoustic guitar.
There's a lot.
Great tips most Rockabilly players use gut or synthetic strings. We also tend to use a neck pickup as well as a bridge pickup to get the 'click' . I personally use a GK 150 and a David Gage realist pickup . I DI through the pa so my amp is just a monitor. I use clear sticky back plastic to cover the sound hole which really helps and can be easily taken off . It's seems to be down to the individual bass what suits one doesn't always work with another.
Hey Terry, good to hear from you. I love the GK150. I think they are great combos and they are so light! Plus you make a good point that all instruments need different solutions. Finding the perfect right is part of the fun of playing double bass. :-)
We use Shadow pickup. Band uses in ears. Bass floor monitor has no bass in it. Low cut the shadow and the channel. No problems. We play very loud. Buy the stage volume is low
Two additional comments. I also had problems of feedback at wolf notes from the portion of string between bridge and tailpiece and found that easy to damp.
But the best solution for me has been playing an Eminence upright bass, purchased to ease transport but, because of lack of resonance, is virtually free from feedback. Even with a low B. And if you are laying that loud the acoustic output is less significant.
They are great points and I think the wolf notes can really effect the acoustics and curse problems. Plus Eminence are awesome instruments and really practical for loud gigs/travel.
HPF in what ever form that take is essential IMO. I have also found that to raise your cab above waist height is a great solution.
+1 those are my two favourite options.
Funny--I always keep a bandana/handkerchief right there on the tailpiece just to have on hand for wiping strings, never knew it was potentially helping feedback issues
Great advice Geoff. I use David Gage Realist directly into a Gallien Krueger MB 112-II. I've always placed my combo amp on a chair for EQ purposes. I've noticed in different rooms or outdoors, different strings will feedback...sometimes it is the A, sometimes the D, occasionally the G. I only have four EQ knobs and the GK handles it like a parametric. So, I'm not just adjusting a specific frequency, I'm changing a curve of frequencies. Many times I can lower the low and mid-low to eliminate most of the feedback. I agree with Gary Holdsworth: Sometimes moving the amp off to the treble side of my bass will help (not always for the drummer's sake though) and putting 10 - 15 feet between it and the bass will help immensely. I also agree with the angle to which the strings are to the amp.
Great to hear the Gage/GK rig is working, that's a nice combination. Plus I think you're spot on about the positioning of the bass. That's a great thing to work with. I've always been guilty of having the amp too close and have got better results if I leave a bit of space. Cheers Geoff :-)
The GK is good for the price. However, I'm drooling over your rig Geoff.
Phase switch on some preamps can really help I find
Graphic EQ. I use an MXR 10-band and it's magic. Played a gig tonight with a 4x12 cab about a ft and a half away from the bass, supplying the sole bass sound for a crowd of 80+ in a noisy bar, against a drummer AND a percussionist, not a peep! No feedback all night.
realist > diy no-frills impedance-matching preamp > graphic eq > power amp
That's a great signal chain and I think you're right that a 10 band EQ would be really handing for dealing with problem frequencies. . plus a 4x12 must sound immense! I don't think I've ever tried one, but I would love to!
Thanks for the response Geoff, love your videos. The preamp I use is the Scott Helmke "Mint-box" Piezo Buffer (searchable on Google). I'd highly HIGHLY recommend it to anyone using a Realist and if you've got some basic soldering and diy skills it can be built for pennies!
Great stuff. I've not heard of that but it sounds perfect. Thanks for the heads up :-)
I listened with interest to this vid because I just picked up a realist soundclip pickup. Played a street gig with it yesterday. Feedback happened. I found that while I was able to get a relatively feedback-free tone playing through a markbass 112, I wasn't particularly happy with the tone shape.
Also, I had another musician play it and he had a lot of feedback on it, which he wasn't really able to deal with.
I had heard about another local player who was able to hang weights from the E and A strings below the bridge. So I was actually looking around for examples of that technique and where I would buy those weights. Got a lot of other great info/ideas here.
Not sure that the Realist Soundclip is a piezo, but definitely will look into that. Am kicking myself because I just bought a pre-amp for my electric bass and now am afraid I may need another. Oy.
Thanks!
It's such a challenge to reduce feedback and I wish you all the best with your set up. Thanks for watching,
I play with quite a loud band and with my setup fortunately zero feedback I use a Schaller magnetic pickup and Eurosonic strings which have a braided steel and silk core, very hard to get hold of so im thinking of changing my setup. (Obviously there needs to be some steel there or the magnets wont work). I used presto strings previously with similar results. Some would say with a Magnetic it ends up sounding like a big bass guitar but when the whole band is playing it sounds pretty good IMO..
Also it is tough when you the bassist have it all together with the sound situation and the drummers' kick drum just pounds vibrations into the doghouse, that is the worst. then it is all about repositioning yourself or creating some barrier of sorts. Also if you are bowing sometimes sympathetic vibrations start feeding back , typically for me on the E or A string. I lean in and damp the string with my left ear, but recently I have slid some felt by the nut under all strings and this works marvelously.
I'm glad it's not me who has used my ear to mute strings! :-) I know exactly what you mean and playing amplified with the bow is a real test of your left hand muting to keep it all from resonating. Plus, you make a great point as we are usually right next to the drummer which is great for the groove, but they do tend to be pretty loud :-)
A parametric or graphic EQ can help tune out certain feedback frequencies. I like to cut, not boost to do this.
Hpf and mid cut helps me. My bass is so loud and boomy acoustically so like you said it's one or the other. Shrink tubing between strings below bridge helps too. Always a battle for me.
I've heard of using shrink tubing, but never tried it. That sounds like a good solution.
A very tight pickup fit has helped me a lot. I don't even use a preamp anymore and rarely have feedback issues anymore.
The Bass Fiddle: Painted Poplar
Pickup: The Realist or Copperfield
When plucked, this has everyone come move to the beat.
it is a bit of a juggling act feet wise, but i find having a volume pedal helps ,so you can back it off a little in the quiet sections in a loud situation
Yes I know Rufus Reid uses one and it does make a lot of sense.
Great tips man! Just putting it out there, gut strings are feedback madness 😆
I've never gone all gut, but they do sound like the worlds most impractical string...yet I still want to do it! :-) It's all about the tone!
They are indeed very impractical but since I grew up with them I got used to the different issues! If you do end up trying them though, check the Troll mic! It does wonders with my acoustic image coda. Very good thumpy sound and definition too. But obviously you won't go as loud as some piezos!
Be a little bit far from the amp helps to reduce it. Quite sometimes if its possible I solve this problem by positioning myself between the bass and the amp and putting both in diferent directions.
Great point!
Hey Geoff. Great lesson as always. Is your Euphonic Audio the 4 ohms or 8ohms cab?
I have the 4 ohm version,
Can someone tell me what’s the brand of strings he recommended? I keep going back to it and I can’t understand it my English isn’t amazing sorry.
Piratro Evah Pirazzi Weich are the strings I'm using. The main thing I suggest is to use a jazz or hybrid set, rather than an orchestral set to get more clarity and reduce boom/feedback. Cheers Geoff
What is Feedback?
Which input do you prefer? I have that head but still can't decide which one I like better.
I think I prefer the higher input, but honestly I'm not sure as I didn't use it much for live work. My Clarus is an older model with only one input.
Great lesson and great conversation in the comments as well. I use a David Gage Realist and used to have a terrible time on any gig where I had to send a line to the PA. The signal is too weak and the soundman would crank up the gain, causing feedback. A Fishman Platinum Pro has solved that problem completely. Last night I had an awful time on a big stage, monitor and FOH speakers were in contact with the stage and engaging with my bass through the endpin producing feedback. The soundman had to roll off a lot of low end from my bass to get rid of it so my sound was thin and I didn’t feel comfortable playing at all. Will try the cloth under the tailpiece and beanbag under the endpin next time. I have also had the problem with sympathetic vibration when using the bow amplified and hardly ever do this as a result.
Great to hear about the Platinum Pro! I've not tried it but when I did try the realist there was too much bottom end and it was very muddy. Perhaps it just needed a pre-amp to clean up.
Thanks Geoff! This has been such a challenge for me. I've tried the knee against the back (had to hold it there almost continuously). Phase inversion seems to work. The last DB gig I did, I tipped the amp back at 45 degrees so it was pointing at my ear instead of my bass. The biggest problem always seems to be the volume coming from the house and the kick drum. Like you mentioned, most sound people don't seem to have much experience with double basses. I've had more than one turn me right down because of feedback instead of adjusting EQ or doing a high-pass shelf. I wish there was some simple instruction I could give to a sound person to make their lives easier (so they don't just turn me off in the mix). Anyone out there have some simple tips they give to sound people?
That's a great point Mike, using your knee to dampen the back can be a big help. I'm really not sure about working with sound engineers, but I think you're right that we must be able to work together to get better results.
If only it were so simple! Double bass is one of the most difficult instruments to deal with on a stage. Best thing you can do is prepare your rig, don't expect the sound techs to take a direct unprocessed signal from your pickup and crank it up to concert volume. Use compressors and expanders, and a 31 band graphic eq, with the sliders that light up so you can kill feedback easily. Get there early, be patient, and get the other members of the band to cooperate with your limitations by keeping their levels perhaps lower than they would like. Use multiple stage monitors so your sound comes to you from multiple sources at various distances, and keep your amp itself at a relatively low volume. If you struggle to hear yourself in the mix, invest in some in-ear monitors so your stage volume can be lower. Mix your direct signal with a mic on your amp, and de-couple your bass itself from the stage at the end pin. This is a huge problem with stages that have subwoofers built in underneath. Above all, be cool and understand if you don't get it right by show time, you're definitely going to get turned down in the mix.
I use a spectrum analizer app "spectroid" on android to find the feedback frequency and then dial it out using a parametric EQ. The GK MB150E has parametric eq.
Thanks, that's a great use of the app! I've never thought of that before, but I will give it a try.
Tim Reynolds the GK MB150 does not have a parametric eq? Just a 4 band, right?
there are two types of mb150 (possibly more) my one, mb150e has a sweepable hi and lo mid, plus bass and treble. i've just got it and discovered the lo cut feature. it really helps!
Wow! Just checked it out. That must be a new addition to the design!
Geoff, what about using mics like audix adx 20 ip or dpa core 4099?
I'm trying to stop bleeding and feedback but is really difficult.
Any recomendation to make it sound a little better?
Thanks a lot!
It's a really tough one. I've always found it too unreliable to use a mic with my bass amp and not worth the extra effort...though there are some who do make it work. You could try using a preamp such as the Grace Felix, but they are expensive and it's still difficult. A good place to search for advice is the Talkbass.com double bass forum. Best of luck.
@@DiscoverDoubleBass thanks a lot, dude!
What i'm trying to do is to blend my piezo with the mic to take a better timbre but it's also too hard sometimes, especially when i'm playing with a loud drummer.
Thanks for the advice, i'll try some cheaper preamp or something and then I'll tell you if works.
I always had loads of feedback. Today I am certain it came from the input impedance. I tried stuffing the F holes with foam and all, but it only works well if you kill the pressure exchange between the inside and the outside of the bass. Foam and gaffa tape do not help much. Fiberglass covers seem to be the best option.
duke-bass.jimdo.com/zubehör/gfk-f-loch-cover/
That makes a lot of sense and Duke are experts at this. I would love to try some of their basses and those covers are a great design.
Just get a Krivo magnetic bass pickup. If this is your first step, every other thing mentioned in the video or comments will be even more effective.
What was the name of the strings you play on?
Ryan Gillespie Pirastro Evah Pirazzi Weich 👍
Where can you buy HPF-Pre ?
Here's the makers website: sites.google.com/site/hpftechllc/home/hpf-pre
I've got a completely un-bass-related question for you Geoff. You're from the UK right? What specifically is your regional accent? I've had an accent my entire life that many people have assumed is British, but I've always been skeptical, but never sure what it really was. There are certain nuances in your speech that actually match mine; so I was wondering what your regional accent is.
Hey Kenton, I live in Leeds which is in the North of England. My accent is only very slightly northern though and I think it's pretty middle of the road for the UK, not really very distinctive. Where are you from?
I'm from Missouri (the United States). Live my whole life in Kansas City until recently moved to St. Louis (the two biggest cities in the state). I'm the only person in among the people I grew up with who has an accent (including my family), and nobody knows why I have it.
Discover Double Bass hi Geoff, I'm also in Leeds
I'm a rock n roll/rockabilly player and use the Fishman preamp and have found it indispensable for my sound. I'm currently playing a new carved spruce fronted Gedo bass from Germany and while it sounds great acoustically it has been a bit of a bugger to get a decent sound electronically for live performance. The Fishman has allowed me to shape the sound of the bass before it goes to my on-stage amp then DI to PA. Many of my double bass playing friends are using steel strings and magnetic pickups to eliminate the feedback problem but I feel that loses most of the tonal quality of the instrument that gives the unique feel to the music. What are your thoughts on genre specific tonality altruism, are you willing to sacrifice a specific feel and sound to completely eliminate a semi-controllable minor annoyance.
Hi Martyn,
Getting your rig/strings right is so hard and I do think it's possible that the trade off could be in the strings. Some strings just won't amplify well no matter how good they sound acoustically...specifically orchestral strings played pizz though an amp. . but I would always try to prioritise the acoustic tone and work on making it louder..but there's no point, as if you can't get a useable volume then no one can hear your great tone! For me I've been lucky with my string choice, but I do think it's all a big compromise and it takes a long time to work out what works best on your bass and in your gigs.
Best of luck with it and it's great to meet someone else from Leeds! :-)
Where did you get your amps at
I bough the Clarus 2nd hand and the E.A cab was bought from Overwaterbasses in the U.K.
why would anyone want to stop the feedback o))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
this lessons in spanish?
or whit subtitules?
I don't have a Spanish version, but I am hoping to add Spanish subtitles in future.
Discover Double Bass please!! My english It's very terrible
Piezo is pronounced 'pee-et-so(lve)'. It's Italian