Kids Should NOT Learn Languages in School (here's why)
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- Опубліковано 4 лип 2024
- bit.ly/freeslkit_schools 📚🏫Think kids should learn languages in school? Think again. In this video, I share my expert opinion and the science behind why teaching kids languages in school is not a good idea. How was your language experience in school? Let us know in the comments!
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I learned Japanese and German in high school and treasured the experiences. Did I reach professional proficiency in 2-3 years? Nothing like it, but I got out of myself, saw the world through new eyes, and made some friends. I later studied Korean, Mandarin, Cantonese, Hawaiian, Hebrew, and now Uyghur (among others). Not everybody will become an interpreter and not everybody needs to.
Sometimes school is the only opportunity for a kid to begin his/her language learning journey. Coming from a financially difficult background with no internet I was over the moon when I learned we were going to get the opportunity to learn English (German was the mandatory one to study but I always gravitated towards English). And me knowing basic English set me on a life path that would hardly have been possible otherwise.
I also think, school was the needed structure for me to have the basis which allowed me to watch and enjoy English films/shows. And also the basis to understand the language, not just pick up everything passively.
I teach Latin. Our curriculum stets at 4th grade. I have come to the conclusion that it’s literally impossible to teach a language to an unwilling student. The brain trying to decipher meaning from message is critical.
1. Students should be able to select what language they want to learn.
2. It should be fun and easy and natural.
Most students not only don’t learn whatever language they sit through for 4 years but they end up hating language learning AND think they are bad at language acquisition.
Hook them on anime or K-pop. Make them fall in love with French food or Italian art. Expose them to German philosophy or Russian literature. Follow their interest and encourage it and expose them to the language.
I had a choice... just between Spanish and French... Spanish was cool but I just really wanted to learn Portuguese and Russian.
My daughter started learning Korean on her own just because of her love for K-Pop.
In Germany, I had the choice between French and Latin as 3rd language in 7th grade. I wanted to learn a language that I could speak and so I chose French and I loved it. But then the rules of chosing courses in Germany forced me to also take Latin from 9th grade onwards and drop French after 10th grade. So I ended up with 4 years of French and 5 years of Latin. I'm mad to this day.
I took Latin in high school for several reasons. My teacher was a neighbor and Latin Club went to Italy every other year and Toronto on the alternate years. I loved history and wanted to go into Law. I've been able to figure out the gist of things in Spanish and Italian because of the Latin root.
There is absolutely no reason to learn Latin unless you're going into medicine. It just is not widely used enough in order for there to be native speakers of it. For students to even get excited about Latin it just is not the most feasible thing in the world.
As an ex-kid, I can attest that what Olly said is true. When I started learning English 26 years ago, most of what I did was read graded readers and watch tons of cartoons. The class was there to supplement and clarify what I consumed of native materials.
I watched Cartoon Network as a kid, didn't help me to understand or speak English since there were no subtitles
whereas when I watch anime, I read subs so it's easy to remember what simple phrases mean in your language
nonetheless, it was still fun to watch Scooby Doo or Courage the Cowardly Dog even though I didn't stand what they were saying
I'm an ex-kid, too!! Finally, someone who can understand me.
In Belgium children get taught a second language from the age of 10 and that works perfectly fine. When I graduated from secondary school I was fluent in French and English, thanks to the educational system. Please do not draw any conclusions on language education from poorly performing educational systems in Anglo-Saxon countries...
Exactly. This guy has zero idea what he is talking about.
Yes, you are right. We learn at least 2 languages at school in Germany. It‘s important.
@@teachersusan3730my husband has a friend from Germany (he was stationed in Nuremberg in the 60s). She and I have talked, and she apologised for her English. I told her that she spoke better English than most people I knew.
@@parkerbrown-nesbit1747 I am an English teacher in Germany and most students study French or Spanish as well. Learning languages at school is important. So I don‘t agree with this video.
I think native English speakers just can‘t be bothered to learn foreign languages because everybody speaks English.
@@teachersusan3730 I took French in Secondary school, and really enjoyed it. A lot of it was the teacher (who was from Paris), who taught in context. I took Latin in college (only two semesters -- alas), and what was supposed to be an introductory class in German culture, but which was actually an immersion into the language.
Don’t stop teaching languages to kids; just do it properly.
Immersion is amazing. I have neighbors with early elementary school age children who are beautifully fluent in Spanish, with native sounding accents, and no hesitation or self-consciousness about speaking Spanish at all. It truly is like a second native language with them. Both kids are in a Spanish immersion program in a local public school. I wish I'd had access to such a program as a kid!
I took Spanish for 3 years and it made me really sad. the teacher who really wanted to let us learn through input and conversations wasn’t allowed to because that’s not the curriculum she was given
I took Spanish from ages 10 to 16. When I decided to jump back in at 36, my former education made every bit of difference because I had the foundations already.
i literally would not have had my second language if not for school. this guy is a joke.
how did you remember the foundations when you weren't using the language for 20 years?
@@FruityHachi for my third language everything was there after 15 years. Input must be kind in your first few years. Mad input.
@@figgettit learning your third language is not the same as learning your first foreign language, the more languages the easier learning and remembering becomes and it also depends on whether the languages are from the same family or a different one
@@FruityHachi idk I just did. I’ve been obsessed with Spanish since I was a toddler watching Sesame Street - I loved Maria - so when we got to take languages in school I was all-in. I did really well in classes and loved the language. I couldn’t speak it OR understand it for most of the years out of school but I retained the information enough that it was like oiling and old bike. I’ve tried to learn Italian and French in the meantime and I just can’t get the hang of them at all - none of it sticks - but Spanish has been something I’ve wanted to learn since birth so I guess I had enough desire to learn to hold onto the info.
Our family of English speakers live in Iceland. Our six-year-old sometimes came home from preschool describing being fully exhausted from spending the whole day in a language that's not her first. What made her Icelandic finally take off was a new friend moving in next door who didn't speak English and had no interest in speaking English. Amazingly, our two-year-old is starting to pick up the language too, just from hanging out near her and her friend. Finding their own motivation and need was the key.
non sequitur
@@figgettit Let me connect the dots for you.. Point is: 1) kids are not magic language sponges; they find learning difficult too and 2) they need actual engagement with the language and a reason to learn to get anywhere. Just as Olly states in the video.
I was six years old when I came to the U.S. not knowing a word of English. I entered first grade not knowing and by the time I entered second grade I wasn't struggling at all. I remember coming home to my parents and telling them how I had learned the word "table"! Kids that age *are* sponges for languages. They have to be in order to survive. I disagree with Olly. It just sounds like he's selling his system. I don't even recall needing a reason or motivation to learn English at that age. I was essentially immersed and that made the difference.
@@meropale There are a few different things going on here. Olly’s video is mainly about kids being taught languages they’re not using, in school. Kids can learn languages very fast when they perceive a need for them, but it’s not a given that it will happen just because someone is pressuring them to. My daughter’s case is somewhat similar. Here in Iceland, English proficiency is so universal that small children are the only people who don’t know it, and they’re desperate to learn. Icelanders learn Icelandic at home, but kids learn before age four or five that English is the language of all the media they want to watch and everything interesting in the rest of the world. So, my daughter would go to preschool and would be surrounded by kids wanting to speak English with her. Teachers would switch to English with her just because it was easier for her to understand and got the job done. So, she didn’t make much progress with Icelandic, despite being around it, until she was in a situation where using it mattered to her. When I say kids are not “sponges,” I don’t mean they aren’t capable of amazing feats of language learning beyond what grown adults can ever do. I mean that issues of motivation, the right kind of exposure, etc. affect their performance just like these issues do for adults. My daughter is now at the phase you were at of coming home excited about her increasing proficiency in Icelandic, but the struggle to get started was difficult. When she’s your age, it’s very likely she’ll have forgotten what she went through early on because it later will have become so natural to know this other language.
@@meropaleThat's pretty much what Olly says. Immersion (which is what you experienced) and motivation are key, not lessons in vocabulary and grammar.
I respectfully disagree with the first assumption. In Germany, we start learning English after 3th grade and thats definitely very helpful and contributes to the comparatively high language proficiencie in Germany.
In Denmark it’s the same except we start in 1st grade. Though the better ones are generally also the ones spending significant amounts of time on the internet.
I don't think those observations contradict. First, it depends on how the language is taught. I think in elementary school they don't talk much about grammar. It's more about getting used to another language, gain some exposure. Second, in Germany we have "accidental immersion" because much of the music we listen to is in English and nowadays you can even consume so much English content on UA-cam and the rest of the internet and immerse yourself endlessly. And Germans are motivated to do that because English dominates the world. US or British children don't have that accidental exposure in music and they don't have a clear motivation to learn a specific language.
3th is very proficiencie
@@Blox117We used to learn it starting from 5th grade. My feeling is that people have become more fluent but not necessarily more correct.
In the end it's about getting your point across. It's better to have a conversation with some flaws than no conversation at all.
I started learning English at school when I was ten. I picked the language up fast, but not so much because I had good teachers. It coincided with access to cabel-TV, Hollywood blockbusters, television programs and pop music.
Olly, it depends how intensive your language program is. I went to bilingual schools K-12, and English took up one or almost two hours a day up to 6th grade and then, AFAIR, 4 or 5 periods per day. Call it semi-immersion. Everyone in my school left it with a good level of English.
My English was so good from an early age that I went to a camp in Canada at age 7 and had no problems communicating with the other kids. And I was already reading English books back then.
There is a fundamental issue with treating languages as just another subject at school. Language learning is basically a lifestyle rather than something you can simply sit in class and drill into your skull with traditional teaching. With that said, there are definitely programs that yield good results, but they're not for everyone.
and yet every public school does it. I went through spanish class for 4 years and never came out even conversational. Since then I learned 2 languages by myself and speak them fine.
I did 2 years at a community college back in California in the early 90s and likewise didn't come out conversational. I ended mastering Japanese in Japan because I was very interested in the language.
Yeah, it really shouldn't be mandatory. It's just not something you can learn effectively if you aren't super interested in it. And even if you are, odds are that those classes just won't fulfill your needs anyway as they have to keep a slow pace so that everyone can get passing grades. It's just a waste of everyone's time like many other things in the education system.
@@rb98769The key is to motivate, to make it interesting,
The only time learning a language “in school” worked for me was when I studied abroad in Spain and that was only bc I had a Spanish bf there. Nothing to do with the class part.
For me it was Japan but with a gf.
Kids do great in immersion and dual language schools at young ages.
The language learning school model would do well to evolve and include applications and the story learning method.
In many Arabic/North African, most citizens can speak three languages: Arabic (native), English and French (french more so than English). The latter two aren't spoken languages day to day, and yet many can speak them well simply by attending school classes. For example, if you talk in French with anyone from Lebanon or Algeria, they will perfectly understand you. I think this is because these languages are taught from year 1 in school all the way until they graduate from highschool, as compared to Western countries who often start teaching a language during high school only for a few years
I've got one for ya Olly. Think about the Deaf kids (100% non-hearing) who are expected to keep up in a class that teaches in English when they themselves sign in ASL which has a completely different grammatical structure. Instead of teaching them in SEE (sign exact English) which would be more beneficial mentally. Now that's a dilemma and a touchy subject for many. P.S. I'm a CODA (child of a Deaf Adult) and an ASL/SEE/PSE Interpreter. I am able to Transliterate and speak Spanish as well.
If I had a deaf kid, I'd learn ASL and cue, not SEE. And I'd cue all my spoken languages.
In my district, SEE is the only instruction method “authorized.” So, please aware cueing during instruction time is not always an option.
So correct Olly ! I was in secondary school in the 1970's, and language teaching was terrible. I easily read books usually in French and sometime in Spanish and Italian. However I am hugely limited in conversational ability because I am mostly self taught. Such a waste were those school years lessons ! I am 63 now and believe that with wonderful online resources people my age can get huge rewards from starting to learn a foreign language . I am convinced it is a gymnasium for the mind..
I do feel like people appreciated languages a lot more in the past though, even at school age
As a non-native English speaker, I can tell you that I didn't learn English at school, but through social media.
I've been learning English in school for 6 years now (I live in Serbia and attend school there) and I forget all the grammar immediately after I get the highest grade on the test.
I understand and speak English without any problems, although I don't know what the Present Simple is.
I'm an English teacher by education, and I really don't think it matters that you know what it's called. What's important is comfort and fluency (you're doing wonderfully, by the way!)
@@parkerbrown-nesbit1747 im 16 years old and at this point even the birds on the branch are able to learn some basic English.
I had English classes since my 7 year of life.
My country's education system is so ahead of its time that next year I won't even have English as a subject.
So i started learning italian in my free time.
When i become fluent in Italian i will move on to French so i will have privilege to act like i actually enjoy eating frog legs.
P.S:It is nice to hear that not all English teachers are pregnant or sick for half of a year.
same lol
I learned Spanish, Italian, Greek and Hebrew all to earn my degrees, and I can't hardly remember any of them. But when I became the language teacher myself, I realized the importance of teaching the "STRUCTURE" of a language.
Not one of my foreign language teachers made it compulsory to do a lesson plan focusing on the structure of the language they were teaching. Now, I am able to control my learning and the learning of my students and advance it, simply by knowing the structure of the language.
I was super excited before I started learning French in middle school. I was so disappointed at how boring the the class was. I ended up hating language learning and actually hating the French language. I would have a visceral response on hearing the French language almost like an allergic reaction.
I grew up and moved to Canada. Here, we have the option of French immersion in state schools, and I applied for my son to do French immersion. Within a year he was better at speaking, reading and understanding spoken Canadian French than I was after 7 years of learning French at school. I decided to learn French because my son was. I started with Pimsleur (borrowed from the library) and reading my son's kindergarten books with him, and then moved onto the StoryLearning books (they've got a couple at the library) and I did a Language app here developed by the federal government and the public broadcaster. (I also bought an intermediate StoryLearning French course - they do Canadian French! - I'm about halfway through that)
I can now understand kids TV shows in French, and even watched a documentary about bats.
It also cured me of French class language trauma.
Now, that I'm conversational at an intermediate level of speaking and listening and have read about 5 books including Le feuilleton d'Ulysse, it's time to start learning tenses and the subjunctive. Hitting that stuff any earlier than intermediate is bad idea.
I had French classes in high school and couldn't get engaged, so learned nothing. When I was 70 I got fascinated by the French Revolution, the Napoleonic era, and after Napoleon fell, how the map of early modern Europe was decided on at the glittering, racy, wild Congress of Vienna;-- especially with the career of charismatic and still-controversial political genius & statesman Prince Maurice Talleyrand, which spanned all three eras. (Ultra-cool survivor ! ) All the best books on him weren't translated into English, so over a year I developed the ability to read biographies of him in French. Get fascinated by some one or some thing in another language, and you'll learn quickly.
I taught foreign languages in a high school in England for over thirty years. I saw several different types of courses and teaching methods come and go. I saw different types of exams come and go too. I was never really happy with any of them.
It is not really true, however, that we never manage to teach any kids to speak in a different language. I heard a lot of 15/16 year olds hold their own admirably in quite tricky speaking exams. I also witnessed older pupils doing AS and A2 exams discussing topics in foreign languages that many of their peers would struggle to do in their native language, which is actually an indication of how silly the syllabuses were. At one point at A level you have to argue a contentious issue. I have discussed whether or not Puerto Rico should be independent in Spanish and argued about the Donbas in Russian. The problem of course is that once they leave school they may never use those languages again unless they have a reason.
However, I still think the whole setup for language learning in high schools is wrong. It would be better not to teach it as an academic subject like history or physics. It is a skill more akin to learning a musical instrument or mastering a sporting skill. It needs to be practised. It should be taught regularly at least once a day in small groups and assessed like music exams ie you take a level when you are ready for it rather than a big exam at the end of a course. More formal courses could be offered for those who want to go more deeply into the study of the language, culture, history etc.
There are several problems also facing pupils who have English as a first language. The obvious one is the lack of opportunity to practise. But the other problem less discussed is the choice of language. If you already speak English, which language do you choose and why? Children often do a language in primary school but not only are the teachers not usually skilled and the kids just learn songs and lists of nouns but often when they move to high school they find themselves doing a completely different language. And then no matter what language they have done in school it will most often not be the language they need in the future should they find themselves in the situation of having to learn a new language. The only thing is that having learned a language in school they have learned how to learn a language so it will be easier.
Absolutely true, when i started learning russian in highschool by myself while carrying all the other 10 subjects, i reached a level of fluency in 3 years with just my interest and knew more words than any student who had 5 years experience + some classes with native speaker teacher.
I totally agree with a free unstructured time for language learning. This is something I have been thinking about for a while as a better alternative. Comic books, cartoons, videos, etc... can make it so the teacher is there only for assistance and not for grading things as if languages were math problems.
having empathetic teachers who encourage and motivate instead of criticize is the first key to effective teaching
then the second key is the materials used
in normal schools I've been taught grammar on sentences out of context and cram vocabulary taught by dictatorial teachers scolding you for mistakes, but one language school I attended was using Callan method and while the sentences were out of context as well but the teachers were supportive so it deprogrammed my fear of speaking before I went to study abroad to actually learn the language there by speaking
now I use movies and tv shows with subtitles to learn languages, which definitely keeps the motivation, but I won't actually be proficient in a language just by doing that, I need to start speaking and think in the language and able to have a conversation about common topics
I am teaching my 1 and a half year old baby 5 languages, but mainly 3: Mandarin, French, and English. My wife speaks to her in Mandarin, I speak to her in French, and my wife and I speak English to each other. In addition to that, I read her books and we listen to some songs in Spanish and Italian. When I teach her vocabulary, I use the 4 languages (My wife is a native Chinese speaker, so she takes care of the Mandarin because my pronunciation isn't perfect). She now understands a fair bit of the three primary languages, and when talking, she uses words from those languages. However, she can also answer questions asked in Spanish and Italian but doesn't speak them. I slowly started to show her some cartoons on a projector, but only in Italian, because Italian pronunciation is also pretty difficult. I plan on getting Spanish classes for her, maybe at the age of 4 or 5. I am also a language teacher and specialize in creating teaching PPT games. I think the most important thing when teaching languages is that it has to be fun for them, so they are actually excited about learning. By playing teaching video games with my students, I can also get an idea of where they need more help: vocabulary, grammar, phonics, etc. Do you think I am doing it right?
Why not teach languages? In Finland, children are taught Finland's two official languages, Finnish and Swedish, as well as English and one optional language (which can, for example, be French, German, Spanish, Portuguese or even Chinese). After graduating from basic school, Finnish children know four different languages at the age of 16 (i.e. those two native languages, English and one optional). And this Finnish model has been successful and arouses interest so that foreign researchers and teachers have visited here in Finland to study how we do it (a foreign researcher sitting at the back of the class and taking notes on how the teachers taught us was not a rare sight in my own childhood), and it only makes us Finns even more proud that our children are taught languages at school.
Scandinavians have fantastic English. I don’t understand how we know how to teach languages faster and more efficiently, yet still insist on doing it the same old way in schools
You bring up a good point. I think this video is addressing the British and American schools, where his dismal stats came from. Whereas he brings up I think, for example, the research for the effectiveness of learning though other subjects came from research on canadian students (where also most anglophone students taught french the standard way have poor results as well). Also, I've seen that teachers in finland generally have masters degrees, whereas in the US elementary ed are generally BA with some of the lowest test SAT/ACT scores of any major (other than social work), yet there are still teacher shortages, so lower education has a very different priority in US society
@@mihan5660 You are correct. In my opinion, U.S. teachers, elementary through high school, are not respected and paid what they should be - also, public education is not funded as well as it used to be. You can see elementary school teachers posting gofundme's asking for art supplies etc. for their classes. Additionally, in some places parents are given lists of school supplies to buy every year that includes supplies that will be used by the class, not just themselves. Public money is being diverted into "school vouchers" that go to private schools. It's not good. I think we need to shut that down and pay teachers and fund all public schools at a decent level. Sorry, rant over.
@@saysdw2450 In my school district, which is one of the wealthiest in my state, the teachers get paid higher than most school districts. I don't think they need a pay raise because some of the teachers don't really teach well, and that the main reason why the school district is one of the best is because of the students. Half of my high school student body is bassicaly Asian. The other half is European. A lot of Asian parents from what I see push their kids really hard to get good grades. My high school offers 5 secondary languages. This is way more than a typical public high school in America.(Non IB). Also, a lot of teachers offer EC. So it is easier to get good grades in school.
@@mihan5660 Most teachers in my high school go to like local colleges. Only a few go to like MSU. I live in America btw.
My family lived in both Japan and the Philippines while my father was in the Air Force. I was a baby and a toddler at that time, so I wasn't speaking much or just gibberish in English. My brother, however, ended up learning to speak in Japanese and Tagalog, simply by being around native speakers.
Fully agree with all of this. People saying he didn't do his research should do there's. I am born and raised in the Spanglish zone of the US. Failed Spanish and English throughout all of my schooling. As an adult I can mostly understand Spanish when spoken to me. But it's only Mexican form Spanish from northern Mexican states and US southwest. Different Spanish accents completely throw me off. Also I can't respond in Spanish. I respond in Spanglish. Had and still have no interest in learning Spanish. Even getting in trouble for not learning my heritage language. Not interested. But I teach myself Japanese now and then cuz I have always been interested in Japanese culture. Yeah kids can sponge knowledge but they have to want it.
They have to want it and have the right conditions 👍🏼
日本語の勉強を頑張ってください。
For every success story in the comments there will be a hundred ones that yielded no results. I think everyone knows this fact anedoctally, most of the population just doesn't benefit from those classes, the numbers speak for themselves. This being a language channel is just going to draw more of an audience that had better experiences on average.
If I'm studying a language in school and get alternatives I will select the one that I believe is easiest (not English of course).
If I'm learning a language outside of school I will select the one that seems most useful.
I totally agree that a second language should come after elementary school because they have not perfected their grammar in their native languages. If they are struggling to understand how to talk and write in their home languages, children are going to climb an uphill battle while trying to learn a second or third language. What complicates English is that it has its own rules on how the eight parts of speech work mechanically because we do not have genders. Whether you are learning English as a second language or vice-versa, these differences complicate the mechanics of how the words function. Punctuation is another part that differs. I almost became an English teacher, and I was surprised at how English is constantly evolving from its Germanic origin.
During state my ESL teacher certification training for (English as a Second Language) the “foundation of our instruction” was it takes 5 to 7 years to acquire a new language to proficiency. (In this case, it was my elementary students acquiring English fluency.) Olly has made a video about this topic!
Thank you for this brilliant video! Having taught in state secondary schools in England for the past five years, I can completely relate to your points. I also advocate for acquiring languages in meaningful contexts and for communicative purposes. While striving to make lessons more communicative and relevant to teenage and young adult learners, unfortunately, the curriculum and exams often restrict achieving that goal completely. Nevertheless, I am grateful for the opportunity to work with these spirited/cheeky students. For many disadvantaged children, it may be their first exposure to another culture and language. I hope it opens doors for their future learning and inspires them to explore more, rather than just focusing on passing exams or losing interest.
I'm 15 years old and I used short stories in spanish for beginners volume 2 and it helped me to reach an lower intermediate level thank you! And my suggestion for reaching fluency is consistency
Thanks for sharing!
Yes! I'm old enough that French online wasn't available in elementary school, but it was related to holidays and songs and such.
My kids (11 & 14) have been in dual immersion (English-Spanish) since kindergarten. I'm so happy with the results! Not only has it helped them speak and understand Spanish well, but they have also developed their Portuguese skills through the help of Spanish. Nothing is perfect, but dual immersion schools are pretty awesome. I sure wish I would've had the chance to attend one.
Something we don’t take enough advantage of is multilingual people in our society. These are the people schools should be employing to do things like story times and leading play groups for young children. If you have to repeat the same dull book about a pig going shopping sixty times, you might as well do it in ten languages.
We had our best language lessons at school from our PE teacher who happened to speak German when our ‘proper’ German teacher went off sick long term and they needed a quick replacement just before the exams.
As an adult working in a major university, multilingualism is integrated into daily life and I struggle. Fortunately my colleagues are patient with my lower level of ability and my efforts to improve (yes olly, I’m using your books). Why it can’t be more integrated into schools simply by employing multilingual teachers and staff and using multiple languages all day every day I just don’t understand. My school in England was mostly a waste of time. We spent most of it waiting for the teacher to get the students to shut up and sit down. And then waiting for them to stop talking so we could copy something dull and out of date from the board. Once you’ve learned to read and write well, we should move on to critical thought, maths, science and historical analysis. Maybe ‘formal’ language studies in school should be reserved for linguistics or how they link to historical developments, not the language speaking itself. But if there is a breakfast club at school organising it so it’s in French one week and Urdu the other week for example, and there are resources available to supplement that, would get some progress.
I’ve deleted the rest of this post because it went into a rant. Turns out I have a lot of pent up aggression.
I took two years of Latin, followed by two years of Spanish in secondary school. While this did not make me anything like fluent in either of those languages, years later, when I was living in Latin America, I found that already understanding the basic structure of Spanish made learning more of it quite easy. My two years of high school language defiantly helped me become fluent in a year or two of daily use, and while I haven’t had the opportunity to practice daily for many years, I can still carry on a comfortable conversation in the language.
Interesting. When I went to live in France as a retiree I enrolled as a full time student in a French course at a local university but abandoned it because it was teaching the most esoteric subtleties of French grammar but it wasn’t improving my ability to speak and understand the language, to communicate, at all.
I've learned far more German as an adult then I ever did at school
Learning basics in school helps a little. It gives a good start better than someone who is learning from zero. The chance of quitting is less than compared to someone who is a beginner beginner.
you can learn the basics from duolingo or 50languages
I saw you on L3WG. I have a question for you. The letter “r” is used differently in a lot of places. For instance it seems to be often removed in places like Boston or England (I say removed it could be just changed to not make a real “r” sound that I was taught). However, I have just begun noting a different usage of the consonant “t” particularly at the end or beginning of a syllable. For instance, the word button (but • ton), I pronounce both “t’s” so it sounds like but • ton but I have been hearing it pronounced but • un or sometimes what sounds like bu • un. The same holds true for mountain. I pronounce it moun • ton but I here it pronounced mount • un or moun • un. This holds true for many other words. So my question: is this a regional thing or a generational thing? On a channel I watch there is a younger couple (early 30’s young to me) that seems to remove the “t” when it starts a middle or end syllable. Also note, my hearings not great and I have tinnitus so maybe it’s just me. Anyway I thought you’d be the one to know the answer to this question. Thanks
I took latin in highschool. She focused on Translation and Grammer. Other than that she tought the history, government, and culture of the Romans. I wish there was more content in Latin. We need Luke to help with more content.
Thanks for an interesting video, Olly. :)
I have observed a different and successful way of teaching languages than what you propose. After school schools work very well with a native speaker teacher. My question for you is, how young do you think children can usefully start after school school in any subject?
Can't attest to learning in elementary school (other than Spanish and French days of the week, colors, and numbers), but I've found that regardless of a subject the things I found difficult in high school or college got MUCH easier post-school or in the year between high school and college. I find I learn by naturally discovering patterns. But that organic process never happens in the restrictive environment of school. There are some language things I learned in college (which was taught better than how it was in high school) that because I was personally invested the building blocks eventually became useful once I studied on my own post-school. But nothing compares to learning on my own. Heck, a LOT I've had to unlearn from school post-school, and sometimes it's not because of the subject matter but because I have to reframe everything from the ground up. And I say this as a "good" student.
Great video. I’ve taught at immersion schools for years, and it would be nice if more districts offered immersion programs in different languages. As you mentioned, class size and lack of teaching assistants are big issues, and lack of funding for education is the main cause of these issues. Write to your politicians! 😂 Another factor in the U.S. is many people oppose immersion programs and bilingual education for a variety of ridiculous reasons, so they don’t enroll their children in these schools. People need to accept the culture and people connected to a language as well if we want students to value learning it. This is often not the case in the U.S. Over the years, I’ve noticed that the students that have traveled or had teaching interns from Latin America or Spain stay at their homes tend to appreciate learning and speaking Spanish more because they have had authentic reasons to use the language. (Which you also suggested was important.) Keep up the excellent videos.
There were five years of English at my school. What my level was at the end? Officially - pre-Intermediate. Could I actually use the language? Yes, at A1-A2 level in expressing my own thoughts in form of wrighting; A2-B1 at reading and understanding written texts; and glorious 0 at speaking and listening, especially native English apeakers. I mean, five years!
And my results, actually, is a bit over median results. A really, really efficiently spent time.
The reason I, a 21 years old german, speak english well is not because of school, but because I grew up with the internet and watched a lot of english videos on UA-cam and played games in english. School didn't do much really. I had French from 7th to 9th grade and don't remember anything now.
yea in my region most kids get French classes but no English classes yet more people know English because there are less video games and good movies in French i sometimes i wish i got interested in other languages earlier .but with the technology from the time it really didn't seem feasible to learn languages apart from English and maybe French and German because of the distance. i couldn't just watch Japanese or even Spanish or Czech movies. if they did come out there they would be dubbed in English despite this not being an English speaking country .think these days its easier to get motivated to learn other languages like Japanese or Spanish but the education system has a lot of other problems. like how its taught and while French is quite useful in some countries they make kids learn some really dull languages. like in Finland they have to learn Swedish in Iceland Danish and in Ireland Irish and Latin and Greek in a lot of countries and this will be ultra demotivating. even in the age of the internet these languages don't have much to offer. if i google stuff in Danish all i get is old made for tv content and jokes from 2006 .i don't think many kids will care about that
The problem with the education system teaching kids a language is the education system.
I can relate. I took Spanish in high school for three years, got good grades, and can barely put a sentence together. (Of course, that was thirty years ago.) Recently, I started using Duolongo, and I'm definitely getting more of a feel for the language, but even still, it's slow-going because I don't really have too much time to devote to using the app. Still, it's better than nothing. I also have a lot of Spanish-speaking coworkers, but when you're pressed for time to get your work done, there isn't a lot of opportunity to try to learn how to discuss the job in two languages.
Agree. I think we should introduce a language (particularly Spanish in the US) to young kids, but through telling stories or cross talking with people in the community, and watching a fun video now and then or sharing some to watch at home cause we probably don’t need to waste time watching stuff at school.
I’m German and my experience proves your point I have to learn French in school and I had to teach myself about 90% of my French. Just a Fantastic Video as always That’s the reason I’m subscribed
Thank you! I appreciate your support
Starting language education after the age of 10 doesn't work. If you don't start them in school, they won't get ANY exposure to another language or culture. When I taught French to 5-10 year old kids, they picked up on it quickly - songs, games, picture dictionaries, nursery rhymes, etc
I am 28 years old now. I learned Spanish during middle school and high school. Some of my peers opted for French, Latin, or Mandarin Chinese. Now, I look back with some bit of regret wishing I could have learned more languages. Also, I have spent years watching K-Pop, but never really attained proficiency in the Korean language.
I taught middle schoolers in a k-12 school. It always frustrated me that the primary teachers refused to drop the grammar lessons. I said at that age it’s too soon. They need to simply hear, engage and explore in a natural way. Not be given grammar, literacy or any formal teaching.
Absolutely amazing. I agree. That is how it was done in Russian schools. Somewhere about 4th ball (year 4), you’re introduced to English as it already recognized as an international language to use in business & science. In recent 15 yrs or so, social media became the “want to”. American films, music. So by secondary school you had the now option to further get to know English if you thought you would study abroad
@storylearning Immersion / bilingual schooling is very common in Wales, Gaelic Scotland, Isle of Man, etc. In Wales somethinhg like 20% of schooling is bilingual. Usually it is thought to be very effective as you say, but rather more common than "not for 99% of kids".
My problem as an adult trying to learn Spanish stems from studying French and German in school. We were taught the alphabet, then basic vocabulary, etc. it seemed though that once I learned how to conjugate the verbs, I took off with the language! There are no programs that I’ve found that teach like that and I have a hard time learning any other way.
German here that used to grow up close to the french border. I started "learning" French in the 70's in Kindergarten. There we had a "french assistant" who was a native speaker and we did just little games and songs. Later at primary school this continued a little bit more structured ('je colle l'image dans le cahier'). The 'real' language lessons started the 5th year at school (10yo), where I had the choice between french and english. Choosing french as first foreign language gave me some more option when in year 7 a 2nd foreign language was mandatory, so it was english then.
But the proximity to France, and my school being some kind of test ground in the early 80's, gave me the option of some kind of extended french classes, so I had history and geography lessons 1/3 in german (german teacher and books) and 2/3 in french (usually over the years) with a french native speaker teacher and official french books.
I never participated in the usual 1-2 week language exchanges with partner schools in France, the UK or the US, but I did participate in our schools 'musical exchange' with the UK partner school, which added some more purpose than just visiting and living with a family in another country, as you had to set up a show, bring two orchestras together etc.
So being exposed to languages is the way to go before learning them in a structured way, or in case of english the exposure helped to deepen what i used to lean from my non-nativ speaker teachers. In my opionion speaking a foreign language is when you don't have to translate in your head, but if you either think in that language when speaking it, or if you are able to just recombine words and sentences that are somewhere stored in your brain according to the context.
Most schools in Australia only provide an hour or two per week of language instruction (aside from English). I work in an immersion school where anywhere up to half of all class time is spent in the target language. Completely different models of instruction, and no guesses which one is more successful at getting students to a level of competency in the target language.
In Germany: first foreign language at grade 3 (sometimes grade 1), possible foreign language at grade 7 or 9. To graduate at grade 12 or 13 you have to learn 2 foreign language! A lot of the students aren‘t a fan of a second one.
I would agree. French is mandatory in Canada for English speakers (and vice versa for the French speakers). I had to take French from grade 4 to grade 8, and I switched to another class as soon as I could because I wasn't interested and we weren't learning anything useful for real conversation. I also took a bit of Spanish, but I've forgotten most of it too, unfortunately I forgot most of that too. Hell, I learned more conversational Finnish in three months studying on my own than in those four years of French.
But funnily enough, if I read French or Spanish, I can still kind of figure things out a little.
Thank you sir. In my country we learn French and English from 6 years of age till 18 and the assumption is that everybody is bilingual... An assumption which fails virtually any attempt to have a conversation in those languages.
In spite of studying English all those years I was not fluent with it until I moved to Australia at the age of 25 and had to practise using the language daily. Same for French, I picked up more watching TV programmes than through the school curriculum. School is only good for teaching basics like grammar and structure.
Ireland has a tradition of drilling irish onto schoolkids. Classes, grammar, advanced-poetry , advanced- prose, very hard work. After 16 years , most of us couldn't order "a cup of coffee with sprinkles & I would prefer to use cash than tap with my card. And can u lend me the key for the wheelchair toilet "....although it's difficult to do a total immersion in a language with only a tiny number of speakers, all of whom have fluent English.
I totally agree with your first point. Why don’t more people ever talk about the importance of the child’s interest and engagement in the learning of the language. I agree learning in school isn’t the optimal way to learn, but I had friends in high school who only took two years of Spanish but due their interest in the language they became remarkably proficient more than you would assume.
Teaching at high school level... done well... can be transformational.
As a Dutch person, have been to Dutch schools, Learned several languages there one of which is English.
For me personally a lot what is being said here goes straight out the window.
I'm really grateful that I got to learn languages in school when I still had the time to do so.
What motivation is concerned, well yes it might have worked better for me, because I like languages and how they work (or don't) however when I am learning a new language it works the best for me if I'm in an environment where I am "forced" to learn it because else I get lazy and wouldn't be able to communicate/survive in the places where this certain language is spoken.
As a foreign language teacher I agree. Learning a new language is hard and to expect students to pick it up is unrealistic.
I am certain I would have quickly given up on German when I started learning if my 9th grade German teacher had simply tried to shove vocabulary and grammar lists down our throats. She took an interactive and immersive classroom approach that made the whole learning process that year feel almost effortless.
What I am reflecting on is that language reflects culture and informs every aspect of how a person perceives life. Learning another language in school simply does not include the holistic reality of the language. I believe that a child learning different languages through their daily “real life” experiences with bi- or even tri- lingual languages, instinctively incorporates the cultural perspectives of each language into a broad, accepting and comfortable relationship with “otherness”. It encourages a natural inclination to be curious and interested rather than fearful and negatively judgmental of difference.
I took German in high school and the biggest take away was a better understanding of the English grammar. I've gotten back into taking German lessons, along with Polish, to exercise my brain. I honestly think sign language should be taught in schools because anyone could become deaf. Plus, I've met more deaf people than I have German.
I’m just answering to the title (cause in the video it sounds a bit different).
I think it’s important to have languages in School. My country is not English-speaking, small and multilingual. Without languages in school the language areas of my country would be pretty isolated (or more connected to the bigger neighbouring countries, than the other language areas of my country).
Like you said in the video: We should change the way we teach (or let the children learn) languages in school, but the languages are important.
My English is good because I started to use it outside of School. French and Italian are pretty bad, cause I never really used them outside of school. I already speak way better Swedish than French and Italian. Even though I learned French for 10 years, Italian for 4 years and Swedish for 3 years. But I’m still happy I had French and Italian. I have a base in that language which can use to somehow communicate in the French and Italian parts of my country.
Apparently the schools in Finland are very good and very different from schools in the rest of Europe. Can you make a video about how teachers in Finland teach English to their students? And what are the results?
I did not want to learn languages when I was a kid. But now that I’m an adult and where I live now most people speak Spanish. So I’ve broken down and given up learning Korean to learn Spanish so I can understand my sweet little neighbor lady.
I am from Israel and we have quite an impressive level of English (foreigners often find it hard to learn Hebrew for lack of motivation).
The reason for that is not some fabolus education system. The reason is that 90% of all cinéma and TV shows are in English and everything is subtitled rather than dubbed.
The scenario you just described is true in the Netherlands as well.
A trial program in Tucson AZ started about 10 years ago where kids entering school were set on a path being taught science and math using only Mandarin. Every grade since then, they continued those classes. A family friend’s kids did it, and now are exceptional with Mandarin. As far a I recall it had gained popularity since then and has waitlists I believe. No emphasis on learning the language, just using it daily for years.
Google “Catalina foothills Chinese (or Spanish)immersion”. And mesquite elementary Chinese immersion, there’s a couple UA-cam videos about them. Maybe Olly can do a video of his own about them.
I can understand not liking grammar. When I start with a new student I always tell them NOT to worry about grammar, unless they wish to take an exam or giving a professional presentation. The most important thing is to practice speaking and reading. Grammar will come later if necessary. The purpose of language is to present your ideas and communicate your thoughts
But it makes it so much easier to learn if you actually understand it.
I just don't believe any person can actually learn German if they don't intensely study the grammar. You have to study the grammatical gender of each noun, remember both conjugation and declination. Of course you will still be understood if you mess up, but if you never really learned it will be diffcult for even German native speakers to understand you.
English has dumb but undercomplex grammar, but that just means you get more out of it with not a lot of studying needed. Learning proper grammar in school allowed me to actually speak it. From middle-grade on I learnt much more from watching stuff in English but I'd never understand the grammar without my school teaching it.
If you actually want to get good, having a proper basis of grammar and deeper understanding makes everything a hundred times easier
Yes, true. I studied English and French in School. English starting in third Grade and Frensh in ninth grade. But I only started to really comprehend English when I got my first audiobooks on tape in English (yes, I am that old) and then started watching my favourite TV shows in English when that was finally possible. My English textbooks also weren't that memorable. My French textbooks on the other hand had comics and little stories in it among other things. And I watched French TV from time to time. So in one year I learned more French than English in six years. I stopped studying French after two years and forgot a lot but now that I pick it up again after 25 years, I am surprised that many things still come back to me.
Um what about non english speaking countries that might want to equip their children with the lingua franca of this era? Should they attempt teaching a foreign language at school?
I wish my kids school and my own school for that matter would have taught more than one language before high school. I’m trying to learn Spanish now and it’s rough.
In Scandinavia we all start learning English - not from day one, but - fairly early. About third grade. Mostly through exposure; songs and short stories.
I temember singing "a bag and a hat and a big black cat" in third grade.
It does work very well for us Scandinavians.
- Also we don't get our TV shows dubbed, but are exposed to English (and other languages) early.
I had 10 years of Japanese classes starting at about age 10 (up until 2002). I can’t always remember the stuff i learned in years 8-10 well, but I can remember the stuff I learned in years 1-7 pretty solidly. It’s more or less the same with math. I can’t remember calculus too well, but I can remember addition and subtraction pretty wel
Very convincing arguments that you have there. Let me add a few thoughts: In Germany, we used to start teaching English in the 5th grade, with quite some success. Most Germans (below a certain age) can speak English to some extent, ie. at least get through every-day situations. Despite being taught grammar and vocabulary ;) So it seems we are more successfull, but why? Maybe because of "accidental immersion": we listen to lots of English language music. On the other hand, many Germans have a heavy accent when speaking English. I believe that learning a language from a young age is important to learn the sounds and have less or even no accent. But as you said: immersion is key here. Me personally, I was never much interested in being able to explain a language grammatically. I always tried to use grammar as an entry point and internalize the rules of the language as if I had learned it as a baby. I strive to not translate but to understand. And it has worked for me just as intended. People tell me I can speak and write English quite well but don't ask me to explain the grammar reliably. A last point about teaching English in Germany: Meanwhile, teaching English starts in primary/elementary school. I have not experienced this, but my kids have. I understand that the focus there is less on grammar and they don't expect much from the kids at that point. It is more to familiarize them with the language, give them some exposure, hoping they will learn it better when they really start teaching it in 5th grade. No idea if it helps, though.
This makes sense. I was at college level english reading by 8. Other languages? Two to three word phrases at best, even 32 years later.
I started watching with lots of scepticism.
The children in my family were pretty good (not perfect) in English and Spanish. The monolinguals are quite impressed. Those of us who speak English will always speak to them in English and those who speak Spanish will speak Spanish to them. By the age of 5 they got pretty good. That is with a simple child's vocabulary. As they got older, their English got better because of school. They will often ask what things mean and they'll often forget or don't know occasional words in Spanish. However, they are able to function in Spanish. That is a lot better than me with my 3 years of high school French. 😂
It doesn’t "work" if the goal is to become fluent, but that's not the goal of putting English speaking kids in a foreign language class for a couple of hours a week. The goal is to build linguistic knowledge and cultural awareness.
I'm in the Philippines. Children here learn two foreign languages in elementary school: Filipino-English and Filipino. This starts really early. In the first three years they are taught in their native local language, but after 3rd grade they will be taught in those foreign languages, so they need to learn them well. Most parents can't help their children, so many kids don't go beyond elementary school, many already don't finish elementary school.
Me and my wife speak English to each other, so I expect my son to do relatively well in English, although I do not speak the local English variant. My wife can speak Tagalog (which is the source language for the official Filipino standard language), and I am trying to learn it as well.
I learnt English in school as well as a bit of German and French. I was bad at German and French. I improved my English after school by using it for different purposes and through exposure on TV, music and video games.
I am originally Dutch, and I want to teach my son Dutch, but I am not going to make him study it until he wants to go to the Netherlands and learn it. I am trying to expose him to it though.
This explains why I learned English and Low German at the same time. Both were by immersion and not taught.
Issue is due to lack of use and standard German now being High German that knowledge is somewhere between lost and usless.
I know a guy who arranged to live in England with his family for three separate years (plus all summer holidays in the other years) and have his kids go to a regular school there (always the same school and classes). Needless to say, they are close to native speakers now.
The title says "kids should not learn languages is school", but Olly's conclusion seems actually to be that kids should learn languages in school, but with a more student-active teaching model. My own experience of learning languages in a state school in the UK was not bad. I studied French aged 11-18, and this gave me the foundation I needed to become a proficient speaker when aged 27 I moved to France for work.
you must be new to the concept of clickbait
I sucked at English at first. Then I took a trip to Canada for my uncle's wedding (he'd moved there years prior) and it bothered 10 y/o me so much that I couldn't communicate with anyone that I self-imposed immersion onto me and within a year I was basically fluent (for a child that age).
Motivation is everything.
I am not sure about everything he said. I have been working on American Sign Language since I was 5. All the words and phrases I learned before I was 14, I still remember. Signs and phrases I learned more recently not so much... But the immersion aspect of learning a language is spot on and getting kids excited about a language is also spot on. But learning it and getting excited about it at a very young age is beneficial because you're going to retain those words and phrases a little bit better than when you get older. And that is from personal experience. I remember a lot more of my ASL from before it was 14 versus learning Spanish from the age of 14 to 18 and remembering very little of it.
It is certainly true that teaching a language one or two hours a week is not enough. But there is a language that can be learnt much faster and children will realise that they are making real progress quickly, that is Esperanto. It is the perfect first foreign language to learn.
My kids went to a school where Latin was taught starting in the 3rd grade. It was an amazing experience. It helped with their regular English classes, and by the time they graduated and went to college, they were extremely well prepared. All English-speaking schools ( all romance languages for that matter) should teach Latin imo. This is a public charter school that is consistently ranked on of the top schools in Minnesota. You do not have to be rich to get an excellent education.
Not once have I listened to Filipino and English classes since elementary to highschool. Yet, I'm doing perfectly fine with my grammar and pronunciations😂
Languages were always naturally interesting to me, but this video perfectly summarizes why math gives me existential dread.
Wholeheartedly agree.