woah had no idea you were making videos again. don't believe its been 10 years, I watched your dark souls stuff religiously. really agreed with your tangent re: game categorisation. had the exact same reaction to the steam "shmup" sale. great video, really need to finally get around to these games already myself.
I've played all KF games earlier this year, couldn't think about anything else for the 2 months it took me to finish these games and it's indeed so sad that nothing will ever be like these. They all are wonderful games with absolutely amazing atmosphere. I'm glad i finally experienced it.
@@HarryToeface I've played Lunacid but it's really not the same... looking forward to play Monomyth once it's out of EA tho. (I also hope the guy making the KF 2 remake will continue)
@@MaitreMechant yeah there's a remake I saw with revamped graphics that looks phenomenal. But I never played lunacid, the fan games I've played were on the swordofmana website. There's a few of them, all games were made in the swordofmana kingsfield game maker
@@MaitreMechant they're excellent! Has all the old kingsfield mechanics, hidden rooms etc. but I think all but one is a completely original story line. Also on that website is a remake of the very first kingsfield. Slightly better graphics they inserted all the original music too!
The bit about King's Field predating the first Dualshock controller is so wild when you think about it. Just imagine a modern console coming out that only later releases a controller with a huge upgrade that would have benefitted so many games and completely changes how you interact with them. The closest modern parallel I can think of are the modern Xbox Pro controllers that have a few extra programmable paddles on the back but I feel like that's not really that close to what the Dualshock offered over the original PSX controller, at least theoretically.
@@CrAzYpotpie I did live through it, I'm just saying it's a huge upgrade to the base capabilities of your controller that's unusual to occur partway through a console's life cycle rather than at the start.
I'd say that VR games have been kind of like that, early ones lack a lot of the polish and convenience features you see in more modern ones, controls included.
Enjoyed Watching your streams! I personally haven't played them all but they are definitely special games that you can't find nowadays. There is just something about the atmosphere, the slow movement and the music that makes KF so special, even to this day.
Currently playing Kings Field IV right now. I am currently addicted to it, I just keep wanting to see what’s ahead! And that satisfaction of unlocking a shortcut in the world is so satisfying. Thanks for making this video. I’m definitely going to check out the older KF games also.
I love these games. I played these and the Shadow Tower ones. They really should attempt another game like this at some point. They've always had a similar way to guide and throw tutorials at players without being invasive. These games, like their recent ones, assume the player is smart enough to figure things out and I appreciate that. This is why I played a game called Lunacid which is pretty much like this, but improved. Pretty fun game.
I started playing these games a couple weeks back and it blows my mind how underated they are. Totally hold up to this day once you wrap your head around how they're supposed to be played lol
Every kingsfield video ive seen has tons of people professing their love for it. I think its way over due someone takes up the mantle. They could easily make a prequel where you play an adventure as the king. Either before he became the king or even a full game as commander Silviera. With all these remakes and reboots Kingsfield is an absolute shoe in!
You might wanna give Hexen: Beyond Heretic a look if you enjoyed Daggerfall. It predates it by a year and uses a modified Doom engine. It holds up extremely well.
54:05 That clump of red slimes at the beginning of the mine area is to tutorialize status effects (they're the first enemies you meet that can inflict status), and to foreshadow that the mine area has a poison theme (the vomit the zombies make, and the poison gas area with the second healing stone) It's also easier to deal with once you realize that getting hit by a green slime cures poison (and there's a green slime in the left passage, right next to the corridor with the mini-healing spring in it) Seems the developers wanted you to get poisoned, realize that status effects are no joke, and either use an antidote, or run into the green slime and have it cured by accident, the healing spring is just a little safety net for players that are brave enough to venture forward. Either way, good video and a damn shame that the ephemeral genre that it exists in hasn't had another entry in many years, despite seeming like a natural fit for video games. Here's hoping that an indie developer can truly realize it. (and yeah, played Lunacid, was a bit let down by the tone and some of the mechanical decisions, so close yet so far, but I suppose it made more people want to try out the classics.)
For sure. I just find the slimes in 4 a little irksome more than anything since the feedback from hitting them and getting hit by them is lacking compared to how easy it is to read every other enemy. You'd have to have a lot of conviction in your vision nowadays to to do what King's Field was doing if you were to develop it today. Anything that restricts the player so much is quickly dismissed as being outdated or clunky, but I feel you get a tighter interplay between the a game's mechanisms when the player isn't afforded so much flexibility. And yeah, Lunacid was a bit of a let down for me too, but it motivated me to really ruminate over why I liked these games (and make this video to begin with).
@@Emarrel Yeah, the 'clunkiness' thing in particular is really frustrating, mainly because the game really makes it work. in IV, the first batch of earth elementals outside the house with the herbs growing in it is the first time the combat really demonstrates how elegant it is, bobbing and weaving through their ranged dark attacks while staying mobile enough to hit them, changing your plan if they dodge or attack, and keeping the proper spacing so their elemental attack which inflicts paralysis doesn't hit you, it's like a slow-motion dance where you're making important decisions that have a big impact on how the fight goes. That and your first fight with a Widda/Ophidian really wakes you up from having fought the relatively lethargic skeletons and zombies. None of that would be possible if you moved at a quicker pace, could spin on your heels or had movement abilities like a dash or dodge, which feels like how it would be handled nowadays. Conventional wisdom is that things need to happen fast, be snappy, but the slower and considered pace of battle really let you feel how good or bad the situation was at any point, as opposed to modern games where you either succeed before you realize it, or something goes wrong so you spam your get out of jail free card and use a healing consumable. Actually, while I'm rambling, this also reminds me of what made Halo different from other shooters, highly committal, deliberate movement, higher time to kill for both yourself and enemies, with poor positioning being heavily punished, but attacks are avoidable given the right footwork. Oh and rewinding a bit, I think the thing with the slimes is just that all the weapons you have at the start are very short, later on when you get longer weapons they aren't nearly as big of an issue. My take on Lunacid was besides the obvious tonal whiplash of having quirky anime characters inhabit the hub (especially after the amazing tone setter that was the intro) is that, while it has the aesthetics of king's field/shadow tower it lacks refinement in the level design (with most areas feeling far too large to me, not in terms of content but simple distance) and in the enemy design (with most enemies being defeated by simple forward back strafing.) That and there was an enemy with an unavoidable attack (swamp demon) if you didn't put skill points into speed, which, was also kind of a baffling decision to me. It was a neat curiosity and I'm certain that most 'normal' people enjoyed it, but I think to me it shows both that the original King's Fields were actually extremely refined in their design, and also that with the right effort that making a modern take on the genre IS POSSIBLE given that all aspects are considered. Anyways thanks for tolerating this long comment, I'm opinionated and sleep deprived and I wasn't able to fully pare down the unnecessary tangents.
@@Da_maulI haven't played any of the King's Field games but I have played Lunacid. I thought Lunacid was amazing, especially for a game made by the efforts of a handful of people. Having seen stuff for the King's Field games I'm very interested in playing them and I largely owe Lunacid and the Souls games for getting me comfortable enough to try something like King's Field. Lunacid feels very comfortable to play and is simple to understand even for someone unfamiliar with the games it takes inspiration from. That can't be understated since it's a genre that really doesn't really get new games anymore. Just cause it isn't perfectly representative of the games it takes inspiration from don't discount the value it holds for being a gateway to introduce people to them.
@@765craven4 Yeah I mean I'm not saying it doesn't have any value at all, but I suggest taking the plunge and trying out one of the original Kings Field games. I played both 4 and 2(jp) and when I gave Lunacid a shot it really just did not scratch the itch at all. I'm not saying it's not impressive, it's definitely difficult to make a game that looks as nice as it does with a lot of content in it when you're one guy and maybe a few friends, but like I already said in a previous comment, I felt like it had some tone issues (again, amazing intro cutscene, all of the atmosphere it built up, all instantly lost when I saw an anime demon girl, cartoon crow, and skeleton with a healing potion addiction) and was just lacking in polish in some key areas that heavily affected my enjoyment. Maybe it was my problem for coming into it wanting it to be king's field, but it also advertised itself heavily as being "like king's field" so I feel as though that's an understandable mistake to make. I do hope you enjoy King's Field though, I may be biased but I think 2 and 4 are the best places to start. 4 is definitely the better game with an amazing map, and is very well tuned difficultywise, but it has a slow start and general pace that could turn you off, 2 is faster and with some framerate hacks you can find on the King's Field Reddit you can get the framerate running smoothly and it will be SURPRISINGLY GOOD for a game from 1995 and literally the second ever Fromsoft Title. You should also try out the mouselook hack, KF2 isn't as reliant on circle-strafing so it'll still be hard in spite of your superior controls, with that, the game feels downright modern, and you'll have a more similar comparison to Lunacid. Either way, to summarize, not attacking the game at all, I just personally found it disappointing, and if it sparked your curiosity about its inspiration, that's honestly great and the game's done its job.
@@Da_maul I played other Akuma Kira games before it and it's tonally very similar to them. Some horror elements but with some cutesy anime-esque shit and some comedic writing to give a bit of levity to it. Kira's other most successful work, Spooky's Jumpscare Mansion is tonally very similar to Lunacid. I think going in with no prior expectations of what a King's Field game would be like allowed me to meet it on its terms better. The inspiration from King's Field and Shadow Tower seem very evident from what I've seen of those games, but expecting it to be just like those games isn't fair to it I don't think. Obviously marketing the game as a "King's Field Like" is gonna give the wrong impression, but afaik Kira only ever said they were inspired by those games. Also. The final ending being very blatantly inspired by an ending of Drakengard still gives me a laugh. Cool set piece though.
One of my pipe dream game development ideas for years now has been a KF-inspired game that has a diagetic explanation for the controls. Concept: you are trapped in a nexus where all malls go when they die. You are only able to get around via mobile scooter. New items let you reach items on higher shelves, use keypads & buttons, activate elevators, use escalators, and upgrade the battery on your scooter so it lasts longer. Bam, now you have a modern take on the KF formula with the tank controls and slow, methodical combat built directly into the game's setting and story.
@@stevesan Yes. Plus dead malls and malls in general can serve as a great source of inspiration for different biomes, and the fact that they are formed from a mall means it'd be perfectly fine and not immersion breaking to include ramps and scooter-safe passages. Not just doing a liminal space mall thing either. Plenty is possible when you approach it as a supernatural space representing hubs of commerce.
On the game genre discussion part I do agree that "Title-Like" is reductive and doesn't tend to communicate enough of what a game actually is, nowadays genres are hard to define in games because they are so varied. I actually had a conversation about this with a friend the other day about what exactly makes a game an RTS. They were adamant that the Civilization series weren't RTS games despite the fact that the definition they came up with doesn't disqualify Civilization 5 from being one. I think just like music games have subgenres. The problem is that going into the minutae of game design principles and what qualifies as one genre and not as another would require a lot of work and realistically getting everyone to agree would be impossible.
King's Field rocks and I wish there were more first person free movement dungeon crawlers. Really the only thing that compares for me are the Looking Glass games up to and including System Shock as well as Arx Fatalis.
We tried to establish the term rogue-lite for these newer games, but everyone insisted on using the incorrect terms that dilute the meaning of the genre.
As far as KF like games I agree. The closest tribute would be Lunacid but I would argue that takes way more from Shadow tower and Eternal Ring than any of the KF games.
Hiyo! SoM community sends their regards for this vid! DMP has been trying to praise the vid and invite you to the discord but youtube keeps eating the comment!
I was really frustrated with Elden Ring, after watching this I went back to it and decided to focus on the King's Field DNA more than just Souls. Much less frustrating!! ❤
I definitely remapped the controls on emulation for these. I put everything where it would be in a modern 1st person game. But no true analog responsiveness makes it feel incredibly awkward.
Your “Design Principles” section really reminded me of my own thoughts on Lunacid, and how it feels to me as someone who grew up playing King’s Field when I hear people saying that Lunacid is the perfect successor to King’s Field… only it’s not. Although not a terrible game, it misses what are in my opinion every key element of King’s Field - and having the expectation of it being like King’s Field ruined the game. I went in expecting to find the same level of care to level design as KF - what I got was Skyrim grade copy-and-paste dungeons.
Yeah, it kinda bothers me whenever anyone suggest Lunacid is some sort of successor to King's Field/Shadow Tower when it really has entirely different design sensibilities. I liked the game, but I felt the "influence" largely boiled down to sticking a bunch of references to FromSoft titles. It's not like I think it would automatically be a better game if it were to simply ape the gameplay style of King's Field, but Kira set up that expectation and invited the comparison themself and it came across as a little gauche in the end.
Great video! I would kill for a new King's Field since FromSoft resurrected Armored Core... A man can dream. In the meantime though indie games are doing a good job making spiritual successors, Devil Spire and Lunacid come to mind, but as you said, it is best for these games to make their own things instead of trying to market themselves as the old thing. Which some succeed in!
I find that CRT-Royale is very pleasing to the eye (and don't be afraid to tweak it to your tastes), though nowadays I don't find myself streaming/recording with a filter enabled since resampling to lower resolutions tends to produce moire and/or rainbow artifacts.
Im played all kings field series . I liked them, but didnt feel anythig special. But then i played kings field 4. And this game build different. This is best art experience i ever had. I always wanned have experience of exploring old forbidden place. And this game is absolute simulator of this. Honestly i dont even see any point to play games anymore. Kings field 4 is just perfect to me.
I liked the subgenre tangent, I disagree BUT our annoyances with how people use these labels come from the same place that we're misleading others. I think both sorta agree we need to not be afraid to say -likes as a suffix but also be precise so we don't confuse people. It's okay to put a lot of these under a vague main umbrella of 'Action RPG' or 'Dungeon Crawler' and go from there with subgenres. I LOATHE roguelite as a term in general, but completely sympathise that most roguelikes don't actually play like Rogue. In relation to this dungeon crawling, weird magical shit, genre definition arguments and likes you should try Noita if you haven't, I think you'll like it. The official wiki makes fun of all this too: "modern roguelike-likes, -lites and -lite-like-lites." Anyway this was an honest engagement post, liked the video, faved etc. Been enjoying your streams. p.s. Call a Canadian you know who works in taxes a nerd.
Though I haven't tired it, there's a translated Sword of Moonlight PC "port" version of KF1 if you'd prefer to play that instead. But whether if I think you'd be "missing out", that's not really for me to decide. Even though there's a continuity to the Verdite Trilogy they're pretty self contained too.
Unfortunately, I don't think any of the King's Field games have been available on PSN outside of Japan. Your best bet is emulation, and there's plenty of devices that can at least handle PS1 emulation. I used Duskstation for the PS1 games. Your only real option for PS2 emulation is PCSX2 Nightly.
While it's totally subjective, for me it's that melee combat in first person games has a tendency to feel rather weightless and there's rarely much of a feeling like you're trying to physically play around an opponent in close quarters that doesn't just regress into circle strafing around them. Some games have been able to manage it well but I feel having to design a game around mouse look introduces its own set of balance/design problems since you basically have infinite turn speed. Let's say that if in a Souls games, you could spin 360 degrees and continue moving while in the middle of your attack animation - it would be a very similar problem. I don't think it would be controversial to say third person does melee combat way better than first person, and perhaps the reason it still feels good despite posing certain limitations on player movement when performing actions is because the player at least has full visual feedback of their character moving around. KF's speed won't be to everyone's taste but it really manage to get that feeling of weighty first person combat across to me (despite the simple presentation) and it's a big reason why I feel you can't get a game like these any more. You'd have to be pretty ballsy to limit the player to such a degree nowadays and it would totally get lambasted by the PC crowd, especially because of the history of fast paced FPS games setting up this expectation of largely unrestricted speed. While KF's overall speed was influenced by hardware limitations (slow forward movement in particular to facilitate data streaming to remove the loading screens), I think it's still worth examining and exploring how that particular limitation may have informed the train of thought that went into designing KF's combat. I don't feel it suddenly becomes less valuable or irrelevant just because hardware limitations are no longer a factor.
Exploration/world design is its main strength. KF has a 3D metroidvania-esque environment where you can go almost anywhere from the start. You can also return to areas later on and access new parts of the map with new keys and items that you pick up in other areas. There are also no stupid fog walls that lock you into boss fights and such, bosses are just another part of the world, which I prefer. The exploration is just more fun and rewarding compared to most other dungeon crawlers.
damn, what was with that 9 minute rant on the meta description of games? It's not the players that choose those descriptions, it's the marketing and attention that comes with the tags. It's purely visibility for more cash, it doesn't have any real baring on the game itself. Steam is pretty good about player chosen tags, so a little of that chaff is dealt with.
When it comes to proliferating the "like" suffix, it largely is a product of video game discussion, not marketing. "Roguelike" itself comes from Usenet newgroups and "Soulslike" is the product of online discussion too. You're going to have a hard time finding "Souls" mentioned on the Steam store descriptions of anything that isn't an indie game (barring reviews) despite being commonly attributed as a "Soulslike". "Doom Clone" was also popularized by the press, not by developers and it presents the same problems. Do you think many devs would be been keen to simply be dismissed as riding the coattails of another work, diminishing the unique things their game might bring to the table while setting up certain expectations about it? It might be convenient but it can also serve to hamper discussion or in communicating certain ideas. Here's an interesting quote from the October 2019 issue of Retro Gamer: "I thought 'Doom Clone' was idiotic and ignorant of this new FPS category," says Scott. "So I never used that term and corrected all the press who used it. Every 3D game that came out after Doom was called a 'Doom Clone'. The press wasn't smart enough back then to recognise that a new genre was emerging, the FPS genre." Keep in mind Scott here is Scott Miller, one of the designers for Duke Nukem I and II and founder of Apogee Software. Also: "Comparisons to Doom were inevitable: there was nothing else like it at that point, and with no language to help express how a similar game might play, the press, Usenet users and early internet pages had to draw references to the only thing they knew." www.pressreader.com/uk/retro-gamer/20191003/283893049762064 Surely you see some parallels here.
Dude, let's get over the "rogue-like" term and please continue talking about "Kings Field" proper. Please, sir. It's okay. It is just an attempt to classify a game. It's okay. it's okay.. Shhhhh...Shhhhhh...calm...peace...love...
woah had no idea you were making videos again. don't believe its been 10 years, I watched your dark souls stuff religiously.
really agreed with your tangent re: game categorisation. had the exact same reaction to the steam "shmup" sale. great video, really need to finally get around to these games already myself.
I've played all KF games earlier this year, couldn't think about anything else for the 2 months it took me to finish these games and it's indeed so sad that nothing will ever be like these. They all are wonderful games with absolutely amazing atmosphere. I'm glad i finally experienced it.
There are fan made games that are fantastic, you might want to check it out. It gives you more of the same fix.
@@HarryToeface I've played Lunacid but it's really not the same... looking forward to play Monomyth once it's out of EA tho. (I also hope the guy making the KF 2 remake will continue)
@@MaitreMechant yeah there's a remake I saw with revamped graphics that looks phenomenal. But I never played lunacid, the fan games I've played were on the swordofmana website. There's a few of them, all games were made in the swordofmana kingsfield game maker
@@HarryToeface ooh i didn't know about these ones, I'll check it out :)
@@MaitreMechant they're excellent! Has all the old kingsfield mechanics, hidden rooms etc. but I think all but one is a completely original story line. Also on that website is a remake of the very first kingsfield. Slightly better graphics they inserted all the original music too!
The bit about King's Field predating the first Dualshock controller is so wild when you think about it. Just imagine a modern console coming out that only later releases a controller with a huge upgrade that would have benefitted so many games and completely changes how you interact with them. The closest modern parallel I can think of are the modern Xbox Pro controllers that have a few extra programmable paddles on the back but I feel like that's not really that close to what the Dualshock offered over the original PSX controller, at least theoretically.
Not too wild when you actually lived through it 😅
@@CrAzYpotpie I did live through it, I'm just saying it's a huge upgrade to the base capabilities of your controller that's unusual to occur partway through a console's life cycle rather than at the start.
@@FenoTheFox Fair enough. We can agree to disagree.
I'd say that VR games have been kind of like that, early ones lack a lot of the polish and convenience features you see in more modern ones, controls included.
But somehow their PS2 releases generally didn't use the analogs much if at all especially the earlier ones.
The Kings Field games are awesome journeys. Frustrating at times sure but I look back on all of them fondly.
Enjoyed Watching your streams! I personally haven't played them all but they are definitely special games that you can't find nowadays. There is just something about the atmosphere, the slow movement and the music that makes KF so special, even to this day.
Currently playing Kings Field IV right now. I am currently addicted to it, I just keep wanting to see what’s ahead! And that satisfaction of unlocking a shortcut in the world is so satisfying. Thanks for making this video. I’m definitely going to check out the older KF games also.
I love these games. I played these and the Shadow Tower ones. They really should attempt another game like this at some point. They've always had a similar way to guide and throw tutorials at players without being invasive. These games, like their recent ones, assume the player is smart enough to figure things out and I appreciate that.
This is why I played a game called Lunacid which is pretty much like this, but improved. Pretty fun game.
Few things will ever hit me like the fist time you walk into the forest in kingsfield 4, the ost still calms me to this day
I started playing these games a couple weeks back and it blows my mind how underated they are. Totally hold up to this day once you wrap your head around how they're supposed to be played lol
Your streams inspired me to play through kings field IV and I had a great time, I was totally engrossed from start to finish!.
Every kingsfield video ive seen has tons of people professing their love for it. I think its way over due someone takes up the mantle. They could easily make a prequel where you play an adventure as the king. Either before he became the king or even a full game as commander Silviera. With all these remakes and reboots Kingsfield is an absolute shoe in!
You might wanna give Hexen: Beyond Heretic a look if you enjoyed Daggerfall. It predates it by a year and uses a modified Doom engine. It holds up extremely well.
Hexen was/is such an awesome game. Makes me miss the old Raven software.
It's totally on my to-do list!
I really enjoyed watching you stream your playthroughs, so getting a video capping it all off is great.
54:05 That clump of red slimes at the beginning of the mine area is to tutorialize status effects (they're the first enemies you meet that can inflict status), and to foreshadow that the mine area has a poison theme (the vomit the zombies make, and the poison gas area with the second healing stone) It's also easier to deal with once you realize that getting hit by a green slime cures poison (and there's a green slime in the left passage, right next to the corridor with the mini-healing spring in it)
Seems the developers wanted you to get poisoned, realize that status effects are no joke, and either use an antidote, or run into the green slime and have it cured by accident, the healing spring is just a little safety net for players that are brave enough to venture forward.
Either way, good video and a damn shame that the ephemeral genre that it exists in hasn't had another entry in many years, despite seeming like a natural fit for video games. Here's hoping that an indie developer can truly realize it. (and yeah, played Lunacid, was a bit let down by the tone and some of the mechanical decisions, so close yet so far, but I suppose it made more people want to try out the classics.)
For sure. I just find the slimes in 4 a little irksome more than anything since the feedback from hitting them and getting hit by them is lacking compared to how easy it is to read every other enemy.
You'd have to have a lot of conviction in your vision nowadays to to do what King's Field was doing if you were to develop it today. Anything that restricts the player so much is quickly dismissed as being outdated or clunky, but I feel you get a tighter interplay between the a game's mechanisms when the player isn't afforded so much flexibility. And yeah, Lunacid was a bit of a let down for me too, but it motivated me to really ruminate over why I liked these games (and make this video to begin with).
@@Emarrel Yeah, the 'clunkiness' thing in particular is really frustrating, mainly because the game really makes it work.
in IV, the first batch of earth elementals outside the house with the herbs growing in it is the first time the combat really demonstrates how elegant it is, bobbing and weaving through their ranged dark attacks while staying mobile enough to hit them, changing your plan if they dodge or attack, and keeping the proper spacing so their elemental attack which inflicts paralysis doesn't hit you, it's like a slow-motion dance where you're making important decisions that have a big impact on how the fight goes.
That and your first fight with a Widda/Ophidian really wakes you up from having fought the relatively lethargic skeletons and zombies.
None of that would be possible if you moved at a quicker pace, could spin on your heels or had movement abilities like a dash or dodge, which feels like how it would be handled nowadays. Conventional wisdom is that things need to happen fast, be snappy, but the slower and considered pace of battle really let you feel how good or bad the situation was at any point, as opposed to modern games where you either succeed before you realize it, or something goes wrong so you spam your get out of jail free card and use a healing consumable.
Actually, while I'm rambling, this also reminds me of what made Halo different from other shooters, highly committal, deliberate movement, higher time to kill for both yourself and enemies, with poor positioning being heavily punished, but attacks are avoidable given the right footwork.
Oh and rewinding a bit, I think the thing with the slimes is just that all the weapons you have at the start are very short, later on when you get longer weapons they aren't nearly as big of an issue.
My take on Lunacid was besides the obvious tonal whiplash of having quirky anime characters inhabit the hub (especially after the amazing tone setter that was the intro) is that, while it has the aesthetics of king's field/shadow tower it lacks refinement in the level design (with most areas feeling far too large to me, not in terms of content but simple distance) and in the enemy design (with most enemies being defeated by simple forward back strafing.) That and there was an enemy with an unavoidable attack (swamp demon) if you didn't put skill points into speed, which, was also kind of a baffling decision to me. It was a neat curiosity and I'm certain that most 'normal' people enjoyed it, but I think to me it shows both that the original King's Fields were actually extremely refined in their design, and also that with the right effort that making a modern take on the genre IS POSSIBLE given that all aspects are considered.
Anyways thanks for tolerating this long comment, I'm opinionated and sleep deprived and I wasn't able to fully pare down the unnecessary tangents.
@@Da_maulI haven't played any of the King's Field games but I have played Lunacid. I thought Lunacid was amazing, especially for a game made by the efforts of a handful of people. Having seen stuff for the King's Field games I'm very interested in playing them and I largely owe Lunacid and the Souls games for getting me comfortable enough to try something like King's Field.
Lunacid feels very comfortable to play and is simple to understand even for someone unfamiliar with the games it takes inspiration from. That can't be understated since it's a genre that really doesn't really get new games anymore. Just cause it isn't perfectly representative of the games it takes inspiration from don't discount the value it holds for being a gateway to introduce people to them.
@@765craven4 Yeah I mean I'm not saying it doesn't have any value at all, but I suggest taking the plunge and trying out one of the original Kings Field games. I played both 4 and 2(jp) and when I gave Lunacid a shot it really just did not scratch the itch at all.
I'm not saying it's not impressive, it's definitely difficult to make a game that looks as nice as it does with a lot of content in it when you're one guy and maybe a few friends, but like I already said in a previous comment, I felt like it had some tone issues (again, amazing intro cutscene, all of the atmosphere it built up, all instantly lost when I saw an anime demon girl, cartoon crow, and skeleton with a healing potion addiction) and was just lacking in polish in some key areas that heavily affected my enjoyment.
Maybe it was my problem for coming into it wanting it to be king's field, but it also advertised itself heavily as being "like king's field" so I feel as though that's an understandable mistake to make.
I do hope you enjoy King's Field though, I may be biased but I think 2 and 4 are the best places to start. 4 is definitely the better game with an amazing map, and is very well tuned difficultywise, but it has a slow start and general pace that could turn you off, 2 is faster and with some framerate hacks you can find on the King's Field Reddit you can get the framerate running smoothly and it will be SURPRISINGLY GOOD for a game from 1995 and literally the second ever Fromsoft Title. You should also try out the mouselook hack, KF2 isn't as reliant on circle-strafing so it'll still be hard in spite of your superior controls, with that, the game feels downright modern, and you'll have a more similar comparison to Lunacid.
Either way, to summarize, not attacking the game at all, I just personally found it disappointing, and if it sparked your curiosity about its inspiration, that's honestly great and the game's done its job.
@@Da_maul I played other Akuma Kira games before it and it's tonally very similar to them. Some horror elements but with some cutesy anime-esque shit and some comedic writing to give a bit of levity to it. Kira's other most successful work, Spooky's Jumpscare Mansion is tonally very similar to Lunacid.
I think going in with no prior expectations of what a King's Field game would be like allowed me to meet it on its terms better. The inspiration from King's Field and Shadow Tower seem very evident from what I've seen of those games, but expecting it to be just like those games isn't fair to it I don't think. Obviously marketing the game as a "King's Field Like" is gonna give the wrong impression, but afaik Kira only ever said they were inspired by those games.
Also. The final ending being very blatantly inspired by an ending of Drakengard still gives me a laugh. Cool set piece though.
One hour? Pretty neat.
And also where did the Lunacid video go?
In the trash where it belongs 🤣
I ended up taking it down since I feel this video sums up how I feel about it without feeling like I'm "punching down" an indie dev.
One of my pipe dream game development ideas for years now has been a KF-inspired game that has a diagetic explanation for the controls. Concept: you are trapped in a nexus where all malls go when they die. You are only able to get around via mobile scooter. New items let you reach items on higher shelves, use keypads & buttons, activate elevators, use escalators, and upgrade the battery on your scooter so it lasts longer. Bam, now you have a modern take on the KF formula with the tank controls and slow, methodical combat built directly into the game's setting and story.
Haha…… I’d play that.
So like snow runner but with combat and in dungeons
@@stevesan Yes. Plus dead malls and malls in general can serve as a great source of inspiration for different biomes, and the fact that they are formed from a mall means it'd be perfectly fine and not immersion breaking to include ramps and scooter-safe passages.
Not just doing a liminal space mall thing either. Plenty is possible when you approach it as a supernatural space representing hubs of commerce.
On the game genre discussion part I do agree that "Title-Like" is reductive and doesn't tend to communicate enough of what a game actually is, nowadays genres are hard to define in games because they are so varied.
I actually had a conversation about this with a friend the other day about what exactly makes a game an RTS. They were adamant that the Civilization series weren't RTS games despite the fact that the definition they came up with doesn't disqualify Civilization 5 from being one.
I think just like music games have subgenres. The problem is that going into the minutae of game design principles and what qualifies as one genre and not as another would require a lot of work and realistically getting everyone to agree would be impossible.
King's Field rocks and I wish there were more first person free movement dungeon crawlers. Really the only thing that compares for me are the Looking Glass games up to and including System Shock as well as Arx Fatalis.
We tried to establish the term rogue-lite for these newer games, but everyone insisted on using the incorrect terms that dilute the meaning of the genre.
As far as KF like games I agree.
The closest tribute would be Lunacid but I would argue that takes way more from Shadow tower and Eternal Ring than any of the KF games.
Hiyo! SoM community sends their regards for this vid! DMP has been trying to praise the vid and invite you to the discord but youtube keeps eating the comment!
I was really frustrated with Elden Ring, after watching this I went back to it and decided to focus on the King's Field DNA more than just Souls. Much less frustrating!! ❤
Great video, I've only played KF4 and this makes me want to try the earlier ones.
I definitely remapped the controls on emulation for these. I put everything where it would be in a modern 1st person game. But no true analog responsiveness makes it feel incredibly awkward.
Your “Design Principles” section really reminded me of my own thoughts on Lunacid, and how it feels to me as someone who grew up playing King’s Field when I hear people saying that Lunacid is the perfect successor to King’s Field… only it’s not.
Although not a terrible game, it misses what are in my opinion every key element of King’s Field - and having the expectation of it being like King’s Field ruined the game. I went in expecting to find the same level of care to level design as KF - what I got was Skyrim grade copy-and-paste dungeons.
Yeah, it kinda bothers me whenever anyone suggest Lunacid is some sort of successor to King's Field/Shadow Tower when it really has entirely different design sensibilities. I liked the game, but I felt the "influence" largely boiled down to sticking a bunch of references to FromSoft titles.
It's not like I think it would automatically be a better game if it were to simply ape the gameplay style of King's Field, but Kira set up that expectation and invited the comparison themself and it came across as a little gauche in the end.
Now you can suffer in the void King's Field left along with the rest of us ❤
Great video! I would kill for a new King's Field since FromSoft resurrected Armored Core... A man can dream. In the meantime though indie games are doing a good job making spiritual successors, Devil Spire and Lunacid come to mind, but as you said, it is best for these games to make their own things instead of trying to market themselves as the old thing. Which some succeed in!
Love the vid! whats the best CRT retro style post processing setting in your opinion?
I find that CRT-Royale is very pleasing to the eye (and don't be afraid to tweak it to your tastes), though nowadays I don't find myself streaming/recording with a filter enabled since resampling to lower resolutions tends to produce moire and/or rainbow artifacts.
Im played all kings field series . I liked them, but didnt feel anythig special. But then i played kings field 4. And this game build different. This is best art experience i ever had. I always wanned have experience of exploring old forbidden place. And this game is absolute simulator of this.
Honestly i dont even see any point to play games anymore. Kings field 4 is just perfect to me.
I’m playing KF4 now, and unsurprisingly, I think it’s very dark/demons souls. Slow pacing, great level design, unforgiving, defeated vibes.
I liked the subgenre tangent, I disagree BUT our annoyances with how people use these labels come from the same place that we're misleading others. I think both sorta agree we need to not be afraid to say -likes as a suffix but also be precise so we don't confuse people. It's okay to put a lot of these under a vague main umbrella of 'Action RPG' or 'Dungeon Crawler' and go from there with subgenres. I LOATHE roguelite as a term in general, but completely sympathise that most roguelikes don't actually play like Rogue.
In relation to this dungeon crawling, weird magical shit, genre definition arguments and likes you should try Noita if you haven't, I think you'll like it. The official wiki makes fun of all this too: "modern roguelike-likes, -lites and -lite-like-lites."
Anyway this was an honest engagement post, liked the video, faved etc. Been enjoying your streams.
p.s. Call a Canadian you know who works in taxes a nerd.
Thanks for not just going over the entire game
me too. i love the shit out of these games man. they are perfect.
SHADOW TOWER IS GOOD TOO Needs music though
Would I be missing out if I skipped KF1, or is it worth translating and emulating?
there an alternative, just try and look up the "Sword of Moonlight" version of KF1.
Though I haven't tired it, there's a translated Sword of Moonlight PC "port" version of KF1 if you'd prefer to play that instead.
But whether if I think you'd be "missing out", that's not really for me to decide. Even though there's a continuity to the Verdite Trilogy they're pretty self contained too.
Kings field 4 needed ng+ so much.
Excellent video. I look forward to the Shadow Tower stream. I really loved Abyss, I hope you'll love it too if you get to it.
alright fiiiiine I'll check it out
is this game backward compatiable with PS5? If not, how would one go about trying to play this game?
emulation seems like the best method. some people recommend mapping to the original controls, but idk about that
Unfortunately, I don't think any of the King's Field games have been available on PSN outside of Japan. Your best bet is emulation, and there's plenty of devices that can at least handle PS1 emulation.
I used Duskstation for the PS1 games. Your only real option for PS2 emulation is PCSX2 Nightly.
So in what ways is King's Field still ahead of modern action/adventure games.
While it's totally subjective, for me it's that melee combat in first person games has a tendency to feel rather weightless and there's rarely much of a feeling like you're trying to physically play around an opponent in close quarters that doesn't just regress into circle strafing around them. Some games have been able to manage it well but I feel having to design a game around mouse look introduces its own set of balance/design problems since you basically have infinite turn speed. Let's say that if in a Souls games, you could spin 360 degrees and continue moving while in the middle of your attack animation - it would be a very similar problem.
I don't think it would be controversial to say third person does melee combat way better than first person, and perhaps the reason it still feels good despite posing certain limitations on player movement when performing actions is because the player at least has full visual feedback of their character moving around.
KF's speed won't be to everyone's taste but it really manage to get that feeling of weighty first person combat across to me (despite the simple presentation) and it's a big reason why I feel you can't get a game like these any more. You'd have to be pretty ballsy to limit the player to such a degree nowadays and it would totally get lambasted by the PC crowd, especially because of the history of fast paced FPS games setting up this expectation of largely unrestricted speed.
While KF's overall speed was influenced by hardware limitations (slow forward movement in particular to facilitate data streaming to remove the loading screens), I think it's still worth examining and exploring how that particular limitation may have informed the train of thought that went into designing KF's combat. I don't feel it suddenly becomes less valuable or irrelevant just because hardware limitations are no longer a factor.
Exploration/world design is its main strength. KF has a 3D metroidvania-esque environment where you can go almost anywhere from the start. You can also return to areas later on and access new parts of the map with new keys and items that you pick up in other areas. There are also no stupid fog walls that lock you into boss fights and such, bosses are just another part of the world, which I prefer. The exploration is just more fun and rewarding compared to most other dungeon crawlers.
29:30
Second part of the video makes zero sense. Why is it even in the video?
Otherwise thanks for the video. It was interesting
damn, what was with that 9 minute rant on the meta description of games? It's not the players that choose those descriptions, it's the marketing and attention that comes with the tags. It's purely visibility for more cash, it doesn't have any real baring on the game itself. Steam is pretty good about player chosen tags, so a little of that chaff is dealt with.
When it comes to proliferating the "like" suffix, it largely is a product of video game discussion, not marketing. "Roguelike" itself comes from Usenet newgroups and "Soulslike" is the product of online discussion too. You're going to have a hard time finding "Souls" mentioned on the Steam store descriptions of anything that isn't an indie game (barring reviews) despite being commonly attributed as a "Soulslike".
"Doom Clone" was also popularized by the press, not by developers and it presents the same problems. Do you think many devs would be been keen to simply be dismissed as riding the coattails of another work, diminishing the unique things their game might bring to the table while setting up certain expectations about it? It might be convenient but it can also serve to hamper discussion or in communicating certain ideas.
Here's an interesting quote from the October 2019 issue of Retro Gamer:
"I thought 'Doom Clone' was idiotic and ignorant of this new FPS category," says Scott. "So I never used that term and corrected all the press who used it. Every 3D game that came out after Doom was called a 'Doom Clone'. The press wasn't smart enough back then to recognise that a new genre was emerging, the FPS genre."
Keep in mind Scott here is Scott Miller, one of the designers for Duke Nukem I and II and founder of Apogee Software.
Also:
"Comparisons to Doom were inevitable: there was nothing else like it at that point, and with no language to help express how a similar game might play, the press, Usenet users and early internet pages had to draw references to the only thing they knew."
www.pressreader.com/uk/retro-gamer/20191003/283893049762064
Surely you see some parallels here.
Dude, let's get over the "rogue-like" term and please continue talking about "Kings Field" proper. Please, sir. It's okay. It is just an attempt to classify a game. It's okay. it's okay.. Shhhhh...Shhhhhh...calm...peace...love...