hey everyone, thanks for watching and all the comments for the video, we love the support correction at 2:14 - we meant to say same gauge track, but Line 2 was on old CP rail tracks while the new Line 1 was a new build
What's notably different between the two lines is floor height: Line 1 uses a platform of 350 mm above rail whereas Line 2 uses 590 mm (also have seen 570). That's what makes the two lines incompatible, but that 240 mm (~9-10") difference gives the designers of the trains themselves a lot more space to work with, hence why the Line 2 trains tend to be a lot more reliable and capable of much higher top speeds as well. With hindsight, Line 1 should have used the same floor height as the existing Line 2, which would also have allowed for Line 2 trains to eventually use the tunnel (as per the 2006 Mayor's Task Force report).
The O train is definitely the way to go. I love that it takes me 6 mins to get to Rideau from Tunney's Pasture. Let's hope the system can progress without further troubles. This is the way to go for transportation in this city.
The Trillium Line has another issue-it was built on a previously unused single track line. The single line runs under Dow's Lake next to Carleton University so the Carleton Station has a double track...that's the only place where the northbound and southbound trains can pass each other. A delay going one way means a delay going both ways
You're complely wrong. The line is double tracked most of the way from Bowesville all the way to greenboro, trains can pass at Carleton and between corso italia and Bayview. Its not perfect but the majority of the line is double tracked.
I'm from BC - looking at how the Confederation Line was designed, it's essentially a light metro (not unlike the SkyTrain, but primarily at-grade). I can't help but think how much better this system would be running similar rolling stock to the SkyTrain (slightly more like a metro, but not fully there).
You are right that in BC it's proven to be an excellent and successful product, but what works in one place doesn't necessarily work in another, and new rail technology is almost always going to be full of problems on the very first project. The ICTS (now named Innovia) system used in BC was first deployed in Scarborough as part of the TTC's Scarborough RT line. It was plagued with teething problems, and never really delivered anything of much use (two of the TTC's least-busy stations are on this route). The Scarborough RT is almost certain to be ripped out and replaced with the subway extension they eschewed in the 80s. Point being, projects like this are so complex, they are never cookie-cutter. Just as Bombardier turned the Innovia into a successful product, Alstom also took this new, unproven tech and has since successfully deployed it elsewhere. Hopefully Alstom ate the costs to fix the problems with their tech in Ottawa. Hopefully it will serve Ottawa well as people come to trust it again.
Thee are a few major flaws with the points made in the video. The two rail lines use the same gauge. There are several reasons for having separate fleets and systems, but gauge is not one. The new trillium line DMUs are modular so they can be modified to run on an OCS system if Trillium was electrified in the future. An electric system has the benefit of not needing an even more complex vent/exhaust system in a tunnel as well as savings on fuel and maintenance costs. The Citadis would not meet federal regulations to operate on the Trillium line track(as this was converted from a freight line, it is regulated by Transport Canada unlike most public transit systems) so a different vehicle would be required for the trillium expansion, and keeping the system diesel allows the reuse of existing trains, cutting the cost. Also, as the contracts were put out for bids, it is not fair to state that the City chose an unproven vehicle. The City said the vehicle needed to meet certain specifications and The group that won the bid was offering this vehicle which in theory meets them. The city could not have just gone out and picked a deferent vehicle. The Citadis is not unproven either, it is used world wide. The Citadis Spirit is a variant made for Canada with modifications required by the government as part of the Canadian Content requirements of the initial tender. As the cost of the vehicles and maintenance is built into the contracts with the construction/maintenance companies, there is really no added cost to the city for having 2 separate fleets(at least not for the next 30 years). So the restrictions around Trillium and cost benefits of having the systems that were chosen mean it makes financial sense to keep the systems separate. There are no issues in locating what doors are in fault. There are multiple ways both in the cab and at the doors themselves to find exactly where faults are. All new rail systems have door issues and these doors had not been used in the Citadis before(see above reason), so there are issues. The wheel cracks and wheel flat issues are separate and unrelated. The cause of the cracks has been identified and is being addressed (see initial TSB report). The cause of the flats is also know, they did not just “go out of round somehow”, and the fact that the trains are brand new has nothing to do with it(though again, by the time the system launched, the trains had been in testing for nearly 3 years so the statement that they were less than a year old was also not accurate). Any time a train emergency brakes, the friction of the wheel grinding on the rail has the potential to cause flats, no matter how old the wheels are. This is why wheel lathes exit and re-profiling is part of normal maintenance. Unfortunately because of several other issues that were faced around the system’s launch, there were a lot of emergency brake applications. So while this is definitely an issue that is being faced, it is more a symptom than a major issue. Most urban public transit vehicles do not have space for luggage. This is not a long haul passenger system. Just because it goes to the airport does not mean it makes sense to dedicate space on the vehicle for luggage, that could then not be used for anything else. The busses that go to the airport now don’t have luggage racks either, and yet people manage just fine...
hey Mike, thanks for watching of course we understand that those in charge must’ve had their reasons and there will always be 2 sides to every coin however you must agree that the entire planning, construction and execution of the Confederation line was full of problems (due to sheer chance or unfortunate circumstances or poor decision making) we just want to highlight the story, maybe we will do a video looking at the other perspective in the future
Some comments, can't resist: 1- Wheel cracks: TSB investigated and found that the wheels were delivered from Italy with the disassembly screws inserted (the are used to push the 2 wheel plates apart). The presence of those screws in serve put lateral pressure on those places and caused cracks. 2- Overall, lack of expertise at OC Transpo allowed a lot of errors and naive trust in contractors. Politicial pressure to have nice looking stations resulted in glossy shyny tiles on stairs without anyone raising the issue of them becoming extremely slippery and dangerous in winter. 3-"Doors Closing, les portent se ferment" long announcement starts at the time the doors start moving, not before. The outside lights are useless because they are red and again, no indication of a warning of doors about to close. As a coparison, there are 3 seocnds in montreal between the light switching from green to red and a short tone being emitted as warning and then doors close. If you look at the Ottawa LRTs, there is clearly room for 2 lights, a green and a red one on the outdide of doors, but Ottawa only has the red. 4- The Citadis "Spirit" is still a Citadis where all the big systems matter. The "Spirit" is just marketing fluff with allegedly extra heating (which as you pointed out wasn't sufficient). The fact that Ottawa has kept contracts and problems reports so secret leaves door open that it was Ottawa that chose what options to buy and not buy for those vehicles. However, Alsthom, as a consortium member, should have acted as consultant to advise on what is needed and what is a mistake to omit. 5-It is also notable that Ottawa chose a light vehicle designed to develop ridership in outlying suburbs for a service that would start with very heavy ridership from day 1. It already had data on how many people rode the buses through the downtown core every day. 6-The type of contract signed was a binary one. Once Ottawa signed on the dotted line, it was "Mission Accomplished" and Ottawa accepted the system as is with all its flaws. And it knew it had flaws since it worked so hard to prevent publication of testing results. 7-The alleged contractors with expertise didn't know pantographs needed regular maintenance, so they started to break in spectacular fashion. It took an external consultant from England to explain these need regular maintenance. Yet, Ottawa signed phase 2 with these same companies that PROVED they lacked experience to build such a system. 8- Tracks cracked in cold, buckled in heat: an indication that they were not installed at proper temperature. If your project is late and politicians put pressure, you install the tracks in middle of winter in one section and on a hot summer in another and figure someone else will deal with problems later on (or lack of experience means they don't even realize the issue). As a point of comparison, during the rebuilding of the Turcot interchange, CN had to move its mainline tracks and the contract stipulated that the world to build the new tracks could only be performed certain months of the year. This was important because if they were late in handing over the railbed to CN, work would have to wait till the next spring, as as long as old tracks were needed, work to build the highway had to wait since old tracks were in the way. And they had to honour this (and built a temporary bridge over them due to 1 year delay in moving trains to new tracks). Had OC Transpo been involved in the construction, instead of it being a turnkey project, it could have brought in experienced subway folks from Montréal or Toronto to guide the project and change the tiles on stairs before they became a problem. the Ottawa LRT appears to me to have been more of a management problem than a technical one
I'm really curious to see how #3 is going to work out in Montreal. Instead of a voice announcement, the current metro uses a chime which is a throwback to the series of musical notes that the old MR63 made when accelerating. I really hope they use the same chime for the REM. One thing that will probably help a lot is that peoples are already quite used to taking the metro.
@@jonathanlanglois2742 Ottawa could have developped its own short tone. It is pointless to have a long bilingual announcement that takes almost longer to speak than it takes for doors to close. (same with the "doors opening, les portes s,ouvrent" which is absolutely useless). Looks to me like someone was told to record every possible message the train softare allows and didn't really think about whether such messages were needed or not.
Many cities around the world use Alstom Citadis trams and never had problems like the ones in Ottawa...I personnaly used them in Dublin,Melbourne,Bordeaux,Casablanca,Rabat,Tunis,Tenerife, etc and they are highly succesfull...
lol Melbourne's Citadis are notorious for derailing spectacularly at the tip of a hat. And the other models aren't much better, they just run on newly built systems. To quote a report into the proposed construction of a right-hand turn in Adelaide which was later scrapped due to concerns about Citadis tram derailing on said curve: "The cause for Citadis being at risk of derailment is that its design does not cope well with small radius vertical curves. The Citadis tram has 5 car body sections. In plan view, the 5 sections are articulated in yaw at all 4 inter-car connections. This allows it to negotiate a horizontal curve with relative ease as each car can follow the line of the curve. However, when considered in side elevation negotiating a horizontal curve, there is only one of the 4 intercar connections that permits articulation in pitch. In effect, in side elevation the tram has just 2 car body sections for negotiating a vertical curve. With car M1 leading, the first car body section comprises of 3 cars (M1, C1 & NP) with a pair of bogies, one under M1 (wheelsets 1 & 2) and the other under NP (wheelsets 3 & 4). The second car body section is 2 cars (C2 & M2) supported by a hinged connection between NP and C2 and a bogie under M2 (wheelsets 5 & 6). This gives quite a large spacing between bogies, and hence a greater degree of pitch movement that is required at each bogie. This is where another feature of the Citadis tram hinders its performance. The Citadis tram bogies have secondary springs mounted over each axlebox, instead of their usual position towards the longitudinal centre of the bogie. This means that the bogies have a relatively high stiffness resisting pitch movement. For a conventional bogie, when it negotiates a vertical curve (either hump or dip), the bogies can pitch relatively freely and the axle loads remain close to a constant value as would be seen on level track. However, for Citadis, a humped vertical curve will load wheelsets 2, 3 and 5 and unload wheelsets 1, 4 and 6. A dip vertical curve will reverse the loaded and unloaded wheelsets."
good catch! what we meant was the original O-Train (line 2) ran on old existing CP rail tracks as opposed to a new build... you are right, they are actually the same gauge
Daily reminder that Vancouver built 20km of automated metro that connects with the airport with downtown in 20 minutes at a 3 minute frequency for $500 million less than 12KM of LRT in Ottawa. To distance myself from Western smugness, Montreal is building 67km of automated metro for only $8 Billion, which costs only slightly more per KM than the Canada Line. Why are big important rail projects so operpriced and badly designed in Ontario lately? I have a feeling that the Eglington Crosstown is going to preform like the confederation line, as it's even more overdue and overbudget.
The Canada Line has way smaller stations, and the entire tunnel segment was built with cut and cover. Since the tunnel segment in Ottawa is only in downtown, Cut and Cover is basically not an option, and 40m long trains would've spelt disaster for the line. As for Montreal, ye I have nothing.
One important factor driving down the costs for the REM is that it makes heavy use of existing infrastructure such as the Mont Royal tunnel and the former Deux-Montagnes commuter rail line 🚇 Other than that I'm not sure.
The trains going around the bends between Rideau Centre and St Laurent is horrendous. The noise is so loud that you can't hear yourself talk or the voice on the PA system. When is that going to be fixed?
Every city experiences some sort of difficulty when launching a new transit line. For example, the highly-anticipated Sydney Metro was plagued by glitches in the CBTC software that caused trains to overshoot stations, skip stations altogether, or not open the doors. That line used the Alstom Urbalis CBTC system, which I think was not a good idea. They should've used something much more tested and widespread like Thales' SelTrac. Other new transit lines struggle to build ridership, get delayed due to late rolling stock delivery (Ion LRT) or construction issues (Crossrail), so it's never expected for a transit line to open perfectly smoothly with no hiccups. That being said, I think Alstom could've (and should've) done a better job with quality control and testing of their trains. I know that they are a completely new model, and if Alstom fixes all those problems with the Citadis Spirit and has a smooth rollout of trains on the new Toronto LRT, they'll be successful in their entrance to the North American light rail market. I could see the Citadis Spirit being used for other upcoming light rail projects, like the orange and blue lines in Austin, Texas.
Alstom Urbalis CBTC system is quite well tested already too I think, e.g. Singapore's North East line , which opened way back in 2003, already uses that system. May not be completely representative but on the other hand the resignalling of our North South Line to Thales' SelTrac CBTC didn't go smoothly, with up to 3 breakdowns weekly in the months immediately after the CBTC went online in mid-2017. (The original plan was to retain the original Westinghouse/Invensys fixed-block signalling as a backup I think, but I guess it was found to be incompatible. Then in Nov 2017 the home signal at Pioneer station changed from red to yellow when the train at the platform had closed its doors, but before it had departed, causing the following train to crash into it (this was found to be a corner case in the CBTC's programming code/script I think).)
Great content! Also proud to be your 17th subscriber! It’s worth looking into the case study of Zhuhai LRT. Built in 2017 as the first modern street car system in China, its service was halted in Jan 2021 and there are discussions around dismantling it entirely due to mechanical issues and pathetically low ridership. It’s another great example of how a good plan could be plagued by poor judgement.
What was the service frequency of Zhuhai tram? It doesn't seem to connect to anywhere important, which could explain the low ridership. If the line had reached Zhuhai station and the Macau border from the start, it would probably have been well used. But it seems like a waste to dismantle the entire thing after spending the money to build it.
Mississauga LRT is going to be one long straight route except the Square One loop and it's functioning as a typical LRT. I don't think we will run into that many issues, cross my finger.
As an Ottawa resident, I'd rather get stuck in a train delay than a bus delay. At least the LRT delays aren't as long as the bus delays. I remember waiting about an hour or more for an 87 at Rideau Centre multiple times in 2019.
As an Ottawa resident, you have not been paying attention. Delays (shutdowns) have been measured in hours, days, weeks or even months. Buses were never delayed in this manner. We need much better train reliability.
Two or even more different sets of trains/trams for public transport are not uncommon in any given city with a track based system. In Europe you will find that quite often. What is rare is using Diesel powered trains for inner city public transport.
The problems here in Germany are almost everytime the people living near the new Streetcar, LRT or Subway Route by protesting against the projects with things like it won´t be worth living there any longer since the line will get into service, but then it ofthen turns out the opposite direction and the line gets used often higher than its proposed capacity
Thank you for this commentary video about the Confederation Line (which I will hopefully visit and ride soon); I only wish you had contacted me about using the video clip at 0:55 at the MacKenzie-King Station. I have no issue you with using that clip, I just would have liked to be asked to use it. If you did and I don't recall, my apologies.
I could only agree more with this video. Great to see a new channel on this topic, and you just got your 30th sub! Definitely a channel with a lot of future potential. Love the vid!
It is not the same model. Ottawa is using the Alstom Citadis Spirit, a new model designed for higher speeds and North American conditions, not the same train at all. It is also being used as a light metro and not a tramway and Ottawa's weather is a lot more extreme than Dublin, much colder in winter and hotter in summer.
It was getting better but you can't keep adding and adding and adding to the train maintenance with ever longer and more numerous exams without the extra infrastructure and manpower to cope with it. It is creating a nightmare scenario where the trains are being pushed out of service in quick succession for exams because it takes so long to do them. Add to that a wheel lathe that breaks all the time which has to be used on the whole fleet every 3 months it's a miracle we can make service at all.
Yeah as many pointed out both of the lines use the same gauge, I think the primary difference you were trying to pin point was that Line 1 is a Light rail at its core, and Line 2 is a Main line service at its core. But either way the Citadis Spirit isn't even a completely new model surprisingly, but rather an adaptation of their existing Citadis Dualis tram train model already in use in France for many years, adapted to the North American market and safety regulations. Heck even the matter of the doors on the Citadis Spirits is something I don't think should be blamed. I haven't seen anyone anywhere outside of the US trying to hold up train doors like they do in New York, and in case someone tries, the sensors at the doors typically push the doors back open automatically before restarting the closing process. But I think the greater issues come down to systemwide flaws both currently and in the extensions, like some of the uneccesary tight corners of the Confederation line, slowing down the trains uneccesarily, and the matter of the Trillium line branch to the airport not being interlined with the main line to Bayview, as well as its construction only supporting the use of the smaller Coradia Lint sets rather than the FLIRTs from Stadler that'll be delivered in the near future, not to mention the seeming lack of political will to double track the line and to extend the service across the river to Gatineau. I don't think Diesel is that good for as rapid a service as the Trillium line either but what can I do. At least the FLIRTs are already Diesel electric with removable diesel motors so those could easily be turned to electric overhead power should OCtranspo wish to.
They could extended it but the connection to confederation does not have the capacity to handle kanata and ottawa south inbound with gatineau inbound as well for goi g through downtown, hence why the gatineau loop will connect to downtown accross portage.
It's a good summary with some mistakes I think. For instance saying that using completely different rolling stocks was a failure is not accurate. You can hardly use a diesel train for a metro like service anyway. However, as pointed out by Reece on his channel, high-floor trainsets would have been preferable over the current low-floor LRTs.
We don’t mean to say the different rolling stock was the failure, but rather using an unproven model was not a great decision, plus having 2 systems on 2 lines is going to be a nightmare to maintain, with no synergies between the 2. Currently with line 2 expansions underway (or the previous train upgrade back in 2013~2015), why not just electrify? Anyways, we love your feedback, we will do our best to screen mistakes for later videos!
@@TransitAtoB Citadis is proven... all cities have models specific to their cities' needs. What wasn't proven: the mix of ATO in a low-floor platform, and that was noted when that choice was made in 2009.
I don’t mean to have all the technical info on Alstom, but even with the Citadis name slapped onto it, the Citadis Spirit seems to be its own separate model... either way I don’t see how the door jamming and wheel flattening problem are excusable, new train or not
I've sold train to ogdenville and North HavenBrook ! , reminds me of the Simpson's monorail fiasco ! Someone is laughing all the way to the bank ! And it's not anyone who rides an LRT.
Come to the United States, where anyone merely mentioning rail systems gets hit with anti rail NIMBY calamity howling of wasted tax money and destroyed communities.
What I don't understand with this system is why they decided to use light rail trams. Seeing as the entire system appears to be grade separated, has big stations and tunnels without street running, it would've been far more sensible to opt for heavy rail vehicles or a full-on metro, which are generally more flexible and offer larger capacities, as well as higher speeds. And if they wanted a tram, the stations are absolute overkill. In Germany we've got the Stadtbahn, which would be similar in concept. They are large standard gauge tram vehicles equipped for street running and high speeds, which outside of city centres run on dedicated track, and inside centres use tunnels and old tram lines, either separated or in traffic. And the stations, like a tram stop, are generally a platform and some benches. These systems came about as an upgrade of previous tram networks, and I don't see why Ottawa would pursue this avenue when they're building up a completely new network. As for the DMUs they use on the other line, those are intended to serve unelectrified branch lines with occasional stops, not a rapid transit line. Then again, nobody was mad enough to set up a diesel rapid transit system, so I'm guessing the rolling stock options were limited.
great points for sure I think we have only touched on some basic information of the ottawa LRT, we would definitely explore the more technical aspects if the opportunity arises in this channel’s future
It's because Stage 2 was still in planning when the vehicles were decided (the ATO low-floor choice was made in 2009). The City wanted portions crossing intersections at-grade in extensions.
@@mlmielke At-grade crossings are no problem with proper LRT systems and even heavy rail, where you'd want a tram is if there's street running. Even then I don't exactly understand the rolling stock, the Alstom LRVs are designed for building up a new Stadtbahn-style system by extending a purely downtown tram system into the suburbs using existing heavy rail lines. However even most Stadtbahns have way bigger vehicles (Such as the high floor Düewag B-Series), and going for that type of vehicle would have greatly benefitted capacity whilst keeping the tram compatibility. The Alstom trams are designed to seamlessly fit into systems where trams act as slightly better busses, not LRT. And considering that it's the Canadian company Bombardier who supply most modern German Stadtbahn vehicles I don't see why Ottawa wouldn't have bought those at the very least.
@@mikeblatzheim2797 The City did want to use them at-grade, envisioning that possibility for Stage 2 West, Richmond partially-segregated LRT, at-grade Carling LRT and to reach suburbs. But that idea changed half way through the Stage 1 build, years after the vehicles were decided. Montréal Road LRT was even once on the books for a future at-grade line.
the only colossal failure of a transit system is York Region VIVA due to the Carbon Monoxide emissions they could have tried Light Rail like we are currently building in Central Toronto (Line 5 and Line 6)
It's going to be interesting to see how things go in Montreal with the REM. Just like Ottawa, it's going to be a different system. Instead of a pneumatic metro on a guideway, Montreal is going to get a more traditional steel on steel system. One major difference is that the trains that have been ordered for Montreal is off the shelf rolling stock that already have a proven track record in northern climates. They are doing additional testing and actually had the trains rolling this winter on a small section of track. Hopefully, with this testing, they'll be able to work out any problems before it is ready for service.
@@TransitAtoB Stadler Flirts are proven trains... And as for Citadis Spirit, the new platform is ATO (that's new for a low-floor platform), but the trains themselves have proven excellent performance for our climate.
They should have built a "light metro" like the Vancouver skytrain or Montreal REM... Why build an LRT designed for level crossings and street running on a system that has neither of those elements 🤦🏼
The train runs well these days. It's hardly a disaster, it's not perfect by any means, but most of the major bugs have been resolved at this point. Calling it a "colossal failure" is just clickbait hyperbole.
thanks for supporting the channel! I think spending billions of dollars and having months worth of delays and service interruptions should fall within the definitions of colossal, but that's just my opinion hahaha
@@TransitAtoB Almost all the things on the rectify list were checked off during covid-19, including most of the issues mentioned. But the system needs more weight on the vehicles to be sure.
What's this a new channel that does videos on Canadian Transit? Consider me subscribed my dude. edit: I'm also from ottawa and pretty much everyone I know agrees, Trillium Line is better.
@@lovehandr As part of Stage 2 construction the track is being doubled along most of the Trillium line. The existing platforms are also being extended to accommodate longer trains. But it won't be ready until late 2022. : (
@@wizardsuth I live in the immediate area. Stage 2 does not improve frequency which is the major limiting factor for potential riders. The tiny amount of additional double tracking (is is tiny) is not enough to make any difference.
very good foresight to put Alstom in the very front of the title because it'd be very easy to read this as a video that is just shaming on public transit for the sake of it in the first couple moments. i think it is extremely interesting that despite all these flaws, all i can hear whenever oc transpo is brought up with my ottawa friends, is that "the otrain expansion is coming too damn slow". im really interested in how the city will handle it in the future alsoa lso the thumbnail is far too noisy and makes it very unlikely to catch someone's eye in a way that gets them to see what the video is and want to click on it !
Congrats on ripping off pretty much all your video from others. Some facts are wrong like Line 1 and 2 using different track gauge, so THUMBS UP FOR THAT on the incredible research. THUMBS UP for the defiant use of others' work that based on the amount used (5 minutes worth) it is highly unlikely you got permission to use most if not all. Very disappointing.
If you’re adding new service on an existing corridor that isn’t electrified (UP Express) it’s more initially economical to go with diesel (UP Express trains are DMUs)
@@sblack53 that doesn’t really answer my question. As many critics of UP, I don’t understand why they bought DMUs for an urban rail service... I don’t see how it’s a worthwhile investment, because: 1. DMUs put restrictions on service frequency, making timetable expansion more difficult and more expensive; 2. Buying new diesel trains increases the cost of future electrification, because of the need to buy new trains, insure them & train the staff twice + do something with the diesel ones, post electrification. 3. Environment....
@@MikayeYakovlev Ottawa cheaped out. The bigger problem on limiting frequency is the single track design. Every upgrade of the Trillium Line has required lengthy shutdowns, measured in months or years. The current shutdown will be over 2 years. Double tracking and electrification will require another lengthy shutdown and I question whether it will ever take place.
@@MikayeYakovlev The Stadler FLIRTs that have been purchased for the expansion are not DMUs: they're DEMUs, which is to say they are electric with a diesel generator as one of the train modules. In future that module can be swapped out for one with pantographs. What this means is that your point (2) is completely moot as there is no need to buy new trains in the future, while your point (1) is largely moot because the trains are fundamentally electric and so have the better acceleration of electric motors.
As a resident of Ottawa, this system is a disaster. The train seat configuration is totally wrong, and no designed to carry large crowds. I was a huge cheerleader for the Ottawa LRT, I have since bought a car.
The system capacity is only 1/3rd of what it's able to carry right now. It only carried 9,000 pphpd on launch. It can carry 3x more than that with more trains. The City had a high seating ratio requirement. And the 2009 choice of ATO low-floor tram-train technology meant bogies restricting seating options.
The switch heaters on the eastern L1 track segment are rectified. The route to the Airport isn't in question, it's the Airport's connection itself to the station (a non builder responsibility).
Interesting video. It has been a disaster from the start. I read somewhere that Stadler won the contract for the new trains, not Alstom. What happened there? And now that Alstom bought out Bombardier Rail, the competition is less, monopolizing Alstom's market in the industry. Seems to be a lot of wasted space inside the Alstom train. The Stadler proposal had a better floor layout in my opinion.
No fire. Bolts were not tightened properly on multiple trains, multiple times. Eventually one of these trains slipped off the tracks, and ran "in a derailed state" over a few lanes of traffic before finally hitting some sort of device and coming to a halt. So many problems. Such a failure.
I don't know of any city where one has to take three trains to get from the airport to the downtown core. Monumental lack of foresight for planners on this one.
@@TransitAtoB Planning has been longer than 10 years. This version, literally since they cancelled a previous plan in 2006. However, the Airport part was more of an add-on because senior governments and the Airport demanded it, after Trillium was well into planning, so the Airport inclusion hasn't really been 5 years.
"Completely untested trainsets". Lmao is that you Joanne Chianello? The Citadis Spirits are just regular Citadis trams that run succesfully all around the world with no door issues. They just made the trains a bit wider and faster. The only difference is that these ones were built by Rideau Transit Group in Ottawa by rather than in an Alstom factory. The Ottawa system is by no means perfect (weird station design choices for example), but going by the offhand comments you make you sound like you have no idea what you're actually talking about.
@@TransitAtoB Here are some examples of your opinions, rather than facts: - “It was supposed to make travelling faster and easier, but it’s done the opposite.” You contradict yourself with this one @ 2:32 - Ottawa decided to be the launch customer for a completely untested trainset. - “One would not expect the kind of issues from Allstom because they are a large company” - You mention that there were problems which caused only 70% of the trains to be in service, and then say “What made things worse was..” and then you go on to mention one of the problems you were just talking about that caused 70% of the trains to be in service in the first place. - “ Wheels were somehow no longer round”. This is normal wear and tear. There is no mystery about it. - The problems put the entire expansion plan in jeopardy? - “Let’s see how much public support this would get” - Pointing out no dedicated baggage areas as though it’s an example of a failure. Many cities don’t have this, and is not really a problem. Have you even taken a train from the Vancouver airport? It works just fine with no baggage area. - You speak about long term costs, but there are none for the next 30 years. Maintenance was included in the purchase price. - “Hopefully, the city does not decide to try another new set of trains or another new model for future expansions”. - “Execution was flawed on so many levels.”
Your comments are welcome! However, we want to make sure everyone is aware that our videos are very much an opinion piece. We do research to convey certain facts, but the main idea of the video is definitely just our opinions on the topic. And we also believe there are always 2 sides to every coin.
They went with electric trains for the simple fact that the city wants to look like a GREEN city.That's what happens when you let a bunch of tree huggers and granola crunchers be in charge of the system.Line 2 over the life of the train will see a positive cash flow at the end of the life of the train a different story for the bus that currently run.
This video does not document a "Colossal Failure". It documents a complex project that suffered some expensive teething problems. This sort of thing is quite normal for projects of this scope. Downvote for the clickbait title.
‘..tree huggers and granola crunchers’ ? Now that is just silly! Why electric? Almost every LRT or heavy rail system in the world uses electric traction and for good reasons: no pollution at the point of use and if the electricity come from renewables - very little pollution overall, regenerative breaking - whereby some of the energy in the train when breaking can be captured and reused, electric vehicles are cheaper in the long term (electric vehicles have fewer moving parts than their diesel counterparts), faster acceleration which means that more stops can be fitted in and a quieter and smoother ride. My guess is that the first line used diesel because the scheme was tentative - cheapness and speed of implementation - and that they will eventually electrify.
Yes and electrification is very expensive. We would have had it electrified some years ago but an new incoming Mayor and Council cancelled that NS LRT contract/project and had to pay millions to Siemens in cancellation fees. Re-starting and re-planning for EW set all back by a decade.
hey everyone, thanks for watching and all the comments for the video, we love the support
correction at 2:14 - we meant to say same gauge track, but Line 2 was on old CP rail tracks while the new Line 1 was a new build
What's notably different between the two lines is floor height: Line 1 uses a platform of 350 mm above rail whereas Line 2 uses 590 mm (also have seen 570). That's what makes the two lines incompatible, but that 240 mm (~9-10") difference gives the designers of the trains themselves a lot more space to work with, hence why the Line 2 trains tend to be a lot more reliable and capable of much higher top speeds as well. With hindsight, Line 1 should have used the same floor height as the existing Line 2, which would also have allowed for Line 2 trains to eventually use the tunnel (as per the 2006 Mayor's Task Force report).
The O train is definitely the way to go. I love that it takes me 6 mins to get to Rideau from Tunney's Pasture. Let's hope the system can progress without further troubles. This is the way to go for transportation in this city.
The Trillium Line has another issue-it was built on a previously unused single track line. The single line runs under Dow's Lake next to Carleton University so the Carleton Station has a double track...that's the only place where the northbound and southbound trains can pass each other. A delay going one way means a delay going both ways
You're complely wrong. The line is double tracked most of the way from Bowesville all the way to greenboro, trains can pass at Carleton and between corso italia and Bayview. Its not perfect but the majority of the line is double tracked.
I'm from BC - looking at how the Confederation Line was designed, it's essentially a light metro (not unlike the SkyTrain, but primarily at-grade). I can't help but think how much better this system would be running similar rolling stock to the SkyTrain (slightly more like a metro, but not fully there).
You are right that in BC it's proven to be an excellent and successful product, but what works in one place doesn't necessarily work in another, and new rail technology is almost always going to be full of problems on the very first project. The ICTS (now named Innovia) system used in BC was first deployed in Scarborough as part of the TTC's Scarborough RT line. It was plagued with teething problems, and never really delivered anything of much use (two of the TTC's least-busy stations are on this route). The Scarborough RT is almost certain to be ripped out and replaced with the subway extension they eschewed in the 80s. Point being, projects like this are so complex, they are never cookie-cutter. Just as Bombardier turned the Innovia into a successful product, Alstom also took this new, unproven tech and has since successfully deployed it elsewhere. Hopefully Alstom ate the costs to fix the problems with their tech in Ottawa. Hopefully it will serve Ottawa well as people come to trust it again.
Thee are a few major flaws with the points made in the video.
The two rail lines use the same gauge. There are several reasons for having separate fleets and systems, but gauge is not one. The new trillium line DMUs are modular so they can be modified to run on an OCS system if Trillium was electrified in the future. An electric system has the benefit of not needing an even more complex vent/exhaust system in a tunnel as well as savings on fuel and maintenance costs. The Citadis would not meet federal regulations to operate on the Trillium line track(as this was converted from a freight line, it is regulated by Transport Canada unlike most public transit systems) so a different vehicle would be required for the trillium expansion, and keeping the system diesel allows the reuse of existing trains, cutting the cost.
Also, as the contracts were put out for bids, it is not fair to state that the City chose an unproven vehicle. The City said the vehicle needed to meet certain specifications and The group that won the bid was offering this vehicle which in theory meets them. The city could not have just gone out and picked a deferent vehicle. The Citadis is not unproven either, it is used world wide. The Citadis Spirit is a variant made for Canada with modifications required by the government as part of the Canadian Content requirements of the initial tender.
As the cost of the vehicles and maintenance is built into the contracts with the construction/maintenance companies, there is really no added cost to the city for having 2 separate fleets(at least not for the next 30 years). So the restrictions around Trillium and cost benefits of having the systems that were chosen mean it makes financial sense to keep the systems separate.
There are no issues in locating what doors are in fault. There are multiple ways both in the cab and at the doors themselves to find exactly where faults are. All new rail systems have door issues and these doors had not been used in the Citadis before(see above reason), so there are issues.
The wheel cracks and wheel flat issues are separate and unrelated. The cause of the cracks has been identified and is being addressed (see initial TSB report). The cause of the flats is also know, they did not just “go out of round somehow”, and the fact that the trains are brand new has nothing to do with it(though again, by the time the system launched, the trains had been in testing for nearly 3 years so the statement that they were less than a year old was also not accurate). Any time a train emergency brakes, the friction of the wheel grinding on the rail has the potential to cause flats, no matter how old the wheels are. This is why wheel lathes exit and re-profiling is part of normal maintenance. Unfortunately because of several other issues that were faced around the system’s launch, there were a lot of emergency brake applications. So while this is definitely an issue that is being faced, it is more a symptom than a major issue.
Most urban public transit vehicles do not have space for luggage. This is not a long haul passenger system. Just because it goes to the airport does not mean it makes sense to dedicate space on the vehicle for luggage, that could then not be used for anything else. The busses that go to the airport now don’t have luggage racks either, and yet people manage just fine...
hey Mike, thanks for watching
of course we understand that those in charge must’ve had their reasons and there will always be 2 sides to every coin
however you must agree that the entire planning, construction and execution of the Confederation line was full of problems (due to sheer chance or unfortunate circumstances or poor decision making)
we just want to highlight the story, maybe we will do a video looking at the other perspective in the future
Some comments, can't resist:
1- Wheel cracks: TSB investigated and found that the wheels were delivered from Italy with the disassembly screws inserted (the are used to push the 2 wheel plates apart). The presence of those screws in serve put lateral pressure on those places and caused cracks.
2- Overall, lack of expertise at OC Transpo allowed a lot of errors and naive trust in contractors. Politicial pressure to have nice looking stations resulted in glossy shyny tiles on stairs without anyone raising the issue of them becoming extremely slippery and dangerous in winter.
3-"Doors Closing, les portent se ferment" long announcement starts at the time the doors start moving, not before. The outside lights are useless because they are red and again, no indication of a warning of doors about to close. As a coparison, there are 3 seocnds in montreal between the light switching from green to red and a short tone being emitted as warning and then doors close. If you look at the Ottawa LRTs, there is clearly room for 2 lights, a green and a red one on the outdide of doors, but Ottawa only has the red.
4- The Citadis "Spirit" is still a Citadis where all the big systems matter. The "Spirit" is just marketing fluff with allegedly extra heating (which as you pointed out wasn't sufficient). The fact that Ottawa has kept contracts and problems reports so secret leaves door open that it was Ottawa that chose what options to buy and not buy for those vehicles. However, Alsthom, as a consortium member, should have acted as consultant to advise on what is needed and what is a mistake to omit.
5-It is also notable that Ottawa chose a light vehicle designed to develop ridership in outlying suburbs for a service that would start with very heavy ridership from day 1. It already had data on how many people rode the buses through the downtown core every day.
6-The type of contract signed was a binary one. Once Ottawa signed on the dotted line, it was "Mission Accomplished" and Ottawa accepted the system as is with all its flaws. And it knew it had flaws since it worked so hard to prevent publication of testing results.
7-The alleged contractors with expertise didn't know pantographs needed regular maintenance, so they started to break in spectacular fashion. It took an external consultant from England to explain these need regular maintenance. Yet, Ottawa signed phase 2 with these same companies that PROVED they lacked experience to build such a system.
8- Tracks cracked in cold, buckled in heat: an indication that they were not installed at proper temperature. If your project is late and politicians put pressure, you install the tracks in middle of winter in one section and on a hot summer in another and figure someone else will deal with problems later on (or lack of experience means they don't even realize the issue). As a point of comparison, during the rebuilding of the Turcot interchange, CN had to move its mainline tracks and the contract stipulated that the world to build the new tracks could only be performed certain months of the year. This was important because if they were late in handing over the railbed to CN, work would have to wait till the next spring, as as long as old tracks were needed, work to build the highway had to wait since old tracks were in the way. And they had to honour this (and built a temporary bridge over them due to 1 year delay in moving trains to new tracks).
Had OC Transpo been involved in the construction, instead of it being a turnkey project, it could have brought in experienced subway folks from Montréal or Toronto to guide the project and change the tiles on stairs before they became a problem.
the Ottawa LRT appears to me to have been more of a management problem than a technical one
I'm really curious to see how #3 is going to work out in Montreal. Instead of a voice announcement, the current metro uses a chime which is a throwback to the series of musical notes that the old MR63 made when accelerating. I really hope they use the same chime for the REM. One thing that will probably help a lot is that peoples are already quite used to taking the metro.
@@jonathanlanglois2742 Ottawa could have developped its own short tone. It is pointless to have a long bilingual announcement that takes almost longer to speak than it takes for doors to close. (same with the "doors opening, les portes s,ouvrent" which is absolutely useless). Looks to me like someone was told to record every possible message the train softare allows and didn't really think about whether such messages were needed or not.
Many cities around the world use Alstom Citadis trams and never had problems like the ones in Ottawa...I personnaly used them in Dublin,Melbourne,Bordeaux,Casablanca,Rabat,Tunis,Tenerife, etc and they are highly succesfull...
lol Melbourne's Citadis are notorious for derailing spectacularly at the tip of a hat. And the other models aren't much better, they just run on newly built systems. To quote a report into the proposed construction of a right-hand turn in Adelaide which was later scrapped due to concerns about Citadis tram derailing on said curve:
"The cause for Citadis being at risk of derailment is that its design does not cope well with small radius vertical curves. The Citadis tram has 5 car body sections. In plan view, the 5 sections are articulated in yaw at all 4 inter-car connections. This allows it to negotiate a horizontal curve with relative ease as each car can follow the line of the curve.
However, when considered in side elevation negotiating a horizontal curve, there is only one of the 4 intercar connections that permits articulation in pitch. In effect, in side elevation the tram has just 2 car body sections for negotiating a vertical curve. With car M1 leading, the first car body section comprises of 3 cars (M1, C1 & NP) with a pair of bogies, one under M1 (wheelsets 1 & 2) and the other under NP (wheelsets 3 & 4). The second car body section is 2 cars (C2 & M2) supported by a hinged connection between NP and C2 and a bogie under M2 (wheelsets 5 & 6). This gives quite a large spacing between bogies, and hence a greater degree of pitch movement that is required at each bogie.
This is where another feature of the Citadis tram hinders its performance. The Citadis tram bogies have secondary springs mounted over each axlebox, instead of their usual position towards the longitudinal centre of the bogie. This means that the bogies have a relatively high stiffness resisting pitch movement. For a conventional bogie, when it negotiates a vertical curve (either hump or dip), the bogies can pitch relatively freely and the axle loads remain close to a constant value as would be seen on level track. However, for Citadis, a humped vertical curve will load wheelsets 2, 3 and 5 and unload wheelsets 1, 4 and 6. A dip vertical curve will reverse the loaded and unloaded wheelsets."
Try them in minus 30 degrees C.
If I'm not mistaken both line 1 and line 2 use standard gauge
good catch! what we meant was the original O-Train (line 2) ran on old existing CP rail tracks as opposed to a new build... you are right, they are actually the same gauge
thanks - I was looking at the same thing.
Daily reminder that Vancouver built 20km of automated metro that connects with the airport with downtown in 20 minutes at a 3 minute frequency for $500 million less than 12KM of LRT in Ottawa. To distance myself from Western smugness, Montreal is building 67km of automated metro for only $8 Billion, which costs only slightly more per KM than the Canada Line. Why are big important rail projects so operpriced and badly designed in Ontario lately? I have a feeling that the Eglington Crosstown is going to preform like the confederation line, as it's even more overdue and overbudget.
thanks for viewing and supporting our channel, these are topics we will definitely explore in the future
The Canada Line has way smaller stations, and the entire tunnel segment was built with cut and cover. Since the tunnel segment in Ottawa is only in downtown, Cut and Cover is basically not an option, and 40m long trains would've spelt disaster for the line. As for Montreal, ye I have nothing.
@@Absolute_Zero7 Those short trains still move 150,000 passengers a day with 99% reliability and 3 minute frequency.
One important factor driving down the costs for the REM is that it makes heavy use of existing infrastructure such as the Mont Royal tunnel and the former Deux-Montagnes commuter rail line 🚇 Other than that I'm not sure.
The REM project also isn't crazy delayed or overbudget, might be something we look further in a future video
They should have choosen Stadler Variobahn Like Tramlink, Aarhus Lettbane Bybanen Bergen Light Rail.
problem #1 city of ottawa has a clown for a mayor. problem #2 oc transpo management is out of touch with reality
November 2021 and the system is still broken and not expected to be operational again untill mid December. Womp Womp Sad Trombone.
The trains going around the bends between Rideau Centre and St Laurent is horrendous. The noise is so loud that you can't hear yourself talk or the voice on the PA system. When is that going to be fixed?
They're doing maintenance on the rails at the moment actually. Grinding and profiling the rails. There should be an improvement soon for that.
@@danc1513 lol
Duly noted…
Toronto and Mississauga, take notes and make sure the same doesn’t happen
Every city experiences some sort of difficulty when launching a new transit line. For example, the highly-anticipated Sydney Metro was plagued by glitches in the CBTC software that caused trains to overshoot stations, skip stations altogether, or not open the doors. That line used the Alstom Urbalis CBTC system, which I think was not a good idea. They should've used something much more tested and widespread like Thales' SelTrac. Other new transit lines struggle to build ridership, get delayed due to late rolling stock delivery (Ion LRT) or construction issues (Crossrail), so it's never expected for a transit line to open perfectly smoothly with no hiccups.
That being said, I think Alstom could've (and should've) done a better job with quality control and testing of their trains. I know that they are a completely new model, and if Alstom fixes all those problems with the Citadis Spirit and has a smooth rollout of trains on the new Toronto LRT, they'll be successful in their entrance to the North American light rail market. I could see the Citadis Spirit being used for other upcoming light rail projects, like the orange and blue lines in Austin, Texas.
we would love nothing better than Alstom getting it right for Toronto
Alstom Urbalis CBTC system is quite well tested already too I think, e.g. Singapore's North East line , which opened way back in 2003, already uses that system. May not be completely representative but on the other hand the resignalling of our North South Line to Thales' SelTrac CBTC didn't go smoothly, with up to 3 breakdowns weekly in the months immediately after the CBTC went online in mid-2017. (The original plan was to retain the original Westinghouse/Invensys fixed-block signalling as a backup I think, but I guess it was found to be incompatible. Then in Nov 2017 the home signal at Pioneer station changed from red to yellow when the train at the platform had closed its doors, but before it had departed, causing the following train to crash into it (this was found to be a corner case in the CBTC's programming code/script I think).)
Great content! Also proud to be your 17th subscriber! It’s worth looking into the case study of Zhuhai LRT. Built in 2017 as the first modern street car system in China, its service was halted in Jan 2021 and there are discussions around dismantling it entirely due to mechanical issues and pathetically low ridership. It’s another great example of how a good plan could be plagued by poor judgement.
thanks for your support
What was the service frequency of Zhuhai tram? It doesn't seem to connect to anywhere important, which could explain the low ridership. If the line had reached Zhuhai station and the Macau border from the start, it would probably have been well used. But it seems like a waste to dismantle the entire thing after spending the money to build it.
“Issues with Citadis Spirit”
Finch West, Toronto: 😬
Hurontario, Mississauga: 😬😬
Mississauga LRT is going to be one long straight route except the Square One loop and it's functioning as a typical LRT. I don't think we will run into that many issues, cross my finger.
As an Ottawa resident, I'd rather get stuck in a train delay than a bus delay. At least the LRT delays aren't as long as the bus delays. I remember waiting about an hour or more for an 87 at Rideau Centre multiple times in 2019.
inherently the LRT was a good concept, just the execution could have been better!
As an Ottawa resident, you have not been paying attention. Delays (shutdowns) have been measured in hours, days, weeks or even months. Buses were never delayed in this manner. We need much better train reliability.
@@lovehandr What I meant is that busses are often late.
Two or even more different sets of trains/trams for public transport are not uncommon in any given city with a track based system.
In Europe you will find that quite often. What is rare is using Diesel powered trains for inner city public transport.
The problems here in Germany are almost everytime the people living near the new Streetcar, LRT or Subway Route by protesting against the projects with things like it won´t be worth living there any longer since the line will get into service, but then it ofthen turns out the opposite direction and the line gets used often higher than its proposed capacity
Thank you for this commentary video about the Confederation Line (which I will hopefully visit and ride soon); I only wish you had contacted me about using the video clip at 0:55 at the MacKenzie-King Station. I have no issue you with using that clip, I just would have liked to be asked to use it. If you did and I don't recall, my apologies.
Time for an update.
I could only agree more with this video. Great to see a new channel on this topic, and you just got your 30th sub! Definitely a channel with a lot of future potential. Love the vid!
Awesome, thanks!
Nice video!
Dublin, Ireland, uses the Alstom Citadis trams and they are highly successful. So it is surprising that Ottawa got it badly wrong.
It is not the same model. Ottawa is using the Alstom Citadis Spirit, a new model designed for higher speeds and North American conditions, not the same train at all. It is also being used as a light metro and not a tramway and Ottawa's weather is a lot more extreme than Dublin, much colder in winter and hotter in summer.
It was getting better but you can't keep adding and adding and adding to the train maintenance with ever longer and more numerous exams without the extra infrastructure and manpower to cope with it. It is creating a nightmare scenario where the trains are being pushed out of service in quick succession for exams because it takes so long to do them. Add to that a wheel lathe that breaks all the time which has to be used on the whole fleet every 3 months it's a miracle we can make service at all.
Yeah as many pointed out both of the lines use the same gauge, I think the primary difference you were trying to pin point was that Line 1 is a Light rail at its core, and Line 2 is a Main line service at its core.
But either way the Citadis Spirit isn't even a completely new model surprisingly, but rather an adaptation of their existing Citadis Dualis tram train model already in use in France for many years, adapted to the North American market and safety regulations.
Heck even the matter of the doors on the Citadis Spirits is something I don't think should be blamed. I haven't seen anyone anywhere outside of the US trying to hold up train doors like they do in New York, and in case someone tries, the sensors at the doors typically push the doors back open automatically before restarting the closing process.
But I think the greater issues come down to systemwide flaws both currently and in the extensions, like some of the uneccesary tight corners of the Confederation line, slowing down the trains uneccesarily, and the matter of the Trillium line branch to the airport not being interlined with the main line to Bayview, as well as its construction only supporting the use of the smaller Coradia Lint sets rather than the FLIRTs from Stadler that'll be delivered in the near future, not to mention the seeming lack of political will to double track the line and to extend the service across the river to Gatineau. I don't think Diesel is that good for as rapid a service as the Trillium line either but what can I do. At least the FLIRTs are already Diesel electric with removable diesel motors so those could easily be turned to electric overhead power should OCtranspo wish to.
yea that was our mistake early on
basically what you said, we meant to say that line 2 was build on old CP rail tracks
UPDATE: o-train has been out of service for 3 days now cuz of don’t goofy bearings on the axles of some LRT trains.
The Trillium line was the shit . I dont see how they just decided recently that its no longer feasible to extend that line to Gatineau .
They could extended it but the connection to confederation does not have the capacity to handle kanata and ottawa south inbound with gatineau inbound as well for goi g through downtown, hence why the gatineau loop will connect to downtown accross portage.
Underrated Channel. You earned a Subscriber.
thanks for your support
It's a good summary with some mistakes I think. For instance saying that using completely different rolling stocks was a failure is not accurate. You can hardly use a diesel train for a metro like service anyway. However, as pointed out by Reece on his channel, high-floor trainsets would have been preferable over the current low-floor LRTs.
We don’t mean to say the different rolling stock was the failure, but rather using an unproven model was not a great decision, plus having 2 systems on 2 lines is going to be a nightmare to maintain, with no synergies between the 2.
Currently with line 2 expansions underway (or the previous train upgrade back in 2013~2015), why not just electrify?
Anyways, we love your feedback, we will do our best to screen mistakes for later videos!
@@TransitAtoB Fair point. Thanks for your answer!
@@TransitAtoB Citadis is proven... all cities have models specific to their cities' needs. What wasn't proven: the mix of ATO in a low-floor platform, and that was noted when that choice was made in 2009.
I don’t mean to have all the technical info on Alstom, but even with the Citadis name slapped onto it, the Citadis Spirit seems to be its own separate model... either way I don’t see how the door jamming and wheel flattening problem are excusable, new train or not
@@TransitAtoB They aren't excusable, but Citadis Spirit is built on the Citadis Dualis, and trams typically don't go much above 50 km/hr.
I've sold train to ogdenville and North HavenBrook ! , reminds me of the Simpson's monorail fiasco ! Someone is laughing all the way to the bank ! And it's not anyone who rides an LRT.
Come to the United States, where anyone merely mentioning rail systems gets hit with anti rail NIMBY calamity howling of wasted tax money and destroyed communities.
No heating in winter in Ottawa. Wow
What I don't understand with this system is why they decided to use light rail trams. Seeing as the entire system appears to be grade separated, has big stations and tunnels without street running, it would've been far more sensible to opt for heavy rail vehicles or a full-on metro, which are generally more flexible and offer larger capacities, as well as higher speeds. And if they wanted a tram, the stations are absolute overkill.
In Germany we've got the Stadtbahn, which would be similar in concept. They are large standard gauge tram vehicles equipped for street running and high speeds, which outside of city centres run on dedicated track, and inside centres use tunnels and old tram lines, either separated or in traffic. And the stations, like a tram stop, are generally a platform and some benches. These systems came about as an upgrade of previous tram networks, and I don't see why Ottawa would pursue this avenue when they're building up a completely new network.
As for the DMUs they use on the other line, those are intended to serve unelectrified branch lines with occasional stops, not a rapid transit line. Then again, nobody was mad enough to set up a diesel rapid transit system, so I'm guessing the rolling stock options were limited.
great points for sure
I think we have only touched on some basic information of the ottawa LRT, we would definitely explore the more technical aspects if the opportunity arises in this channel’s future
It's because Stage 2 was still in planning when the vehicles were decided (the ATO low-floor choice was made in 2009). The City wanted portions crossing intersections at-grade in extensions.
I mean, yes, in the end, grade separation was probably a better choice than at-grade, but to me it shows the poor planning of the overall project
@@mlmielke
At-grade crossings are no problem with proper LRT systems and even heavy rail, where you'd want a tram is if there's street running. Even then I don't exactly understand the rolling stock, the Alstom LRVs are designed for building up a new Stadtbahn-style system by extending a purely downtown tram system into the suburbs using existing heavy rail lines. However even most Stadtbahns have way bigger vehicles (Such as the high floor Düewag B-Series), and going for that type of vehicle would have greatly benefitted capacity whilst keeping the tram compatibility.
The Alstom trams are designed to seamlessly fit into systems where trams act as slightly better busses, not LRT. And considering that it's the Canadian company Bombardier who supply most modern German Stadtbahn vehicles I don't see why Ottawa wouldn't have bought those at the very least.
@@mikeblatzheim2797 The City did want to use them at-grade, envisioning that possibility for Stage 2 West, Richmond partially-segregated LRT, at-grade Carling LRT and to reach suburbs. But that idea changed half way through the Stage 1 build, years after the vehicles were decided. Montréal Road LRT was even once on the books for a future at-grade line.
yesterday one of the overhead wires failed :D
the only colossal failure of a transit system is York Region VIVA due to the Carbon Monoxide emissions they could have tried Light Rail like we are currently building in Central Toronto (Line 5 and Line 6)
It's going to be interesting to see how things go in Montreal with the REM. Just like Ottawa, it's going to be a different system. Instead of a pneumatic metro on a guideway, Montreal is going to get a more traditional steel on steel system. One major difference is that the trains that have been ordered for Montreal is off the shelf rolling stock that already have a proven track record in northern climates. They are doing additional testing and actually had the trains rolling this winter on a small section of track. Hopefully, with this testing, they'll be able to work out any problems before it is ready for service.
Wish they did that in Ottawa.
The city is getting new train sets for the trillium line.
hopefully the new trains won't be as much of a problem as the alstom citadis spirit on the confederation line
@@TransitAtoB Stadler Flirts are proven trains... And as for Citadis Spirit, the new platform is ATO (that's new for a low-floor platform), but the trains themselves have proven excellent performance for our climate.
You failed to mention that most of the issues were caused by RTG
gotta save some topics for future videos 😜
They should have built a "light metro" like the Vancouver skytrain or Montreal REM... Why build an LRT designed for level crossings and street running on a system that has neither of those elements 🤦🏼
Some of these issues I've never heard of... Wonder what your sources are? 🤔
if you have lived or done any research into the Ottawa system, you would see it
The trillium line was much worse. The train couldn't go very fast due to it being built on top of existing track which was the wrong gauge.
What is wrong with standard gauge?
The train runs well these days. It's hardly a disaster, it's not perfect by any means, but most of the major bugs have been resolved at this point. Calling it a "colossal failure" is just clickbait hyperbole.
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I think spending billions of dollars and having months worth of delays and service interruptions should fall within the definitions of colossal, but that's just my opinion hahaha
@@TransitAtoB Many highly regarded systems have the same, but don't get the attention under the same flag.
Hopefully this gave them some time to work on things to make things better
@@TransitAtoB Almost all the things on the rectify list were checked off during covid-19, including most of the issues mentioned. But the system needs more weight on the vehicles to be sure.
What's this a new channel that does videos on Canadian Transit? Consider me subscribed my dude.
edit: I'm also from ottawa and pretty much everyone I know agrees, Trillium Line is better.
we hope to explore stories from all cities, but since we are Canadian we thought we would start closer to home first
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Trillium has a lower frequency, so not an equal comparison.
Trillium Line is trash because of the single track design and inadequate frequency to serve as a trunk line.
@@lovehandr As part of Stage 2 construction the track is being doubled along most of the Trillium line. The existing platforms are also being extended to accommodate longer trains. But it won't be ready until late 2022. : (
@@wizardsuth I live in the immediate area. Stage 2 does not improve frequency which is the major limiting factor for potential riders. The tiny amount of additional double tracking (is is tiny) is not enough to make any difference.
very good foresight to put Alstom in the very front of the title because it'd be very easy to read this as a video that is just shaming on public transit for the sake of it in the first couple moments.
i think it is extremely interesting that despite all these flaws, all i can hear whenever oc transpo is brought up with my ottawa friends, is that "the otrain expansion is coming too damn slow". im really interested in how the city will handle it in the future
alsoa lso
the thumbnail is far too noisy and makes it very unlikely to catch someone's eye in a way that gets them to see what the video is and want to click on it !
thanks for the kind words
Congrats on ripping off pretty much all your video from others. Some facts are wrong like Line 1 and 2 using different track gauge, so THUMBS UP FOR THAT on the incredible research. THUMBS UP for the defiant use of others' work that based on the amount used (5 minutes worth) it is highly unlikely you got permission to use most if not all. Very disappointing.
Why does a major city in the 21st century opt for diesel trains? This makes literally 0 sense...
If you’re adding new service on an existing corridor that isn’t electrified (UP Express) it’s more initially economical to go with diesel (UP Express trains are DMUs)
@@sblack53 that doesn’t really answer my question. As many critics of UP, I don’t understand why they bought DMUs for an urban rail service... I don’t see how it’s a worthwhile investment, because:
1. DMUs put restrictions on service frequency, making timetable expansion more difficult and more expensive;
2. Buying new diesel trains increases the cost of future electrification, because of the need to buy new trains, insure them & train the staff twice + do something with the diesel ones, post electrification.
3. Environment....
@@MikayeYakovlev Ottawa cheaped out. The bigger problem on limiting frequency is the single track design. Every upgrade of the Trillium Line has required lengthy shutdowns, measured in months or years. The current shutdown will be over 2 years. Double tracking and electrification will require another lengthy shutdown and I question whether it will ever take place.
@@MikayeYakovlev The Stadler FLIRTs that have been purchased for the expansion are not DMUs: they're DEMUs, which is to say they are electric with a diesel generator as one of the train modules. In future that module can be swapped out for one with pantographs. What this means is that your point (2) is completely moot as there is no need to buy new trains in the future, while your point (1) is largely moot because the trains are fundamentally electric and so have the better acceleration of electric motors.
I love the content! Subbed! Just a heads up your thumbnail might not have uploaded properly as it's quite blurry, otherwise great work!
thanks for the support
blurriness is intended
As a resident of Ottawa, this system is a disaster. The train seat configuration is totally wrong, and no designed to carry large crowds. I was a huge cheerleader for the Ottawa LRT, I have since bought a car.
I think that was the most disappointing part right? There was so much hype and then in the end it was a dud
The system capacity is only 1/3rd of what it's able to carry right now. It only carried 9,000 pphpd on launch. It can carry 3x more than that with more trains. The City had a high seating ratio requirement. And the 2009 choice of ATO low-floor tram-train technology meant bogies restricting seating options.
O-Train update: two derailments within the past two months. These trains are looking more like lemons with every passing month.
I don’t think it derailed going very fast or going through a bend either?
04:45 TOO FUCKING LATE....THEY GETTING STADLER FLIRTS TO REPLACE THE SIEMENS FOR THE TRILLIUM LINE🤣😂😂
Huh Ottawa never used Siemens trains they used Alstom trains
Frozen switches, and there might not be a route to the airport due to the pandemic.
The switch heaters on the eastern L1 track segment are rectified. The route to the Airport isn't in question, it's the Airport's connection itself to the station (a non builder responsibility).
Subbed! I’d love to see a video comparing the different types of transit, eg: tram vs lrt vs streetcar!
thanks for the idea, we will keep that in mind
Interesting video. It has been a disaster from the start. I read somewhere that Stadler won the contract for the new trains, not Alstom. What happened there? And now that Alstom bought out Bombardier Rail, the competition is less, monopolizing Alstom's market in the industry. Seems to be a lot of wasted space inside the Alstom train. The Stadler proposal had a better floor layout in my opinion.
lets see how this bombardier sale affects things
And also all stations not design according to Canadian weather
Is there any sense that taxpayers should protest this situation?
Update: LRT is shut down indefinitely due to trains catching on fire and derailing
No fire. Bolts were not tightened properly on multiple trains, multiple times. Eventually one of these trains slipped off the tracks, and ran "in a derailed state" over a few lanes of traffic before finally hitting some sort of device and coming to a halt. So many problems. Such a failure.
I don't know of any city where one has to take three trains to get from the airport to the downtown core. Monumental lack of foresight for planners on this one.
don’t forget this was all planned and built (building) within the last 10yrs, its all relatively new, no excuses to be so poorly planned
@@TransitAtoB Planning has been longer than 10 years. This version, literally since they cancelled a previous plan in 2006. However, the Airport part was more of an add-on because senior governments and the Airport demanded it, after Trillium was well into planning, so the Airport inclusion hasn't really been 5 years.
It wasn't so long ago when you needed two trains and a bus (or two) to get from Pearson to downtown Toronto.
Wow what a disaster.. Subbed!
thanks
"Completely untested trainsets". Lmao is that you Joanne Chianello? The Citadis Spirits are just regular Citadis trams that run succesfully all around the world with no door issues. They just made the trains a bit wider and faster. The only difference is that these ones were built by Rideau Transit Group in Ottawa by rather than in an Alstom factory.
The Ottawa system is by no means perfect (weird station design choices for example), but going by the offhand comments you make you sound like you have no idea what you're actually talking about.
well then, by your logic of the trains being the same as the regular citadis spirits, the problems in ottawa makes even less sense don’t you think?
That is most thing in this world. Idea sounds great but execution is terrible
Interesting video. I wonder though if it might have been even better if you stuck to facts and avoided opinion.
thanks for your comments
if you could let me know which facts you would like to dispute I would be happy to correct it
@@TransitAtoB Here are some examples of your opinions, rather than facts:
- “It was supposed to make travelling faster and easier, but it’s done the opposite.” You contradict yourself with this one @ 2:32
- Ottawa decided to be the launch customer for a completely untested trainset.
- “One would not expect the kind of issues from Allstom because they are a large company”
- You mention that there were problems which caused only 70% of the trains to be in service, and then say “What made things worse was..” and then you go on to mention one of the problems you were just talking about that caused 70% of the trains to be in service in the first place.
- “ Wheels were somehow no longer round”. This is normal wear and tear. There is no mystery about it.
- The problems put the entire expansion plan in jeopardy?
- “Let’s see how much public support this would get”
- Pointing out no dedicated baggage areas as though it’s an example of a failure. Many cities don’t have this, and is not really a problem. Have you even taken a train from the Vancouver airport? It works just fine with no baggage area.
- You speak about long term costs, but there are none for the next 30 years. Maintenance was included in the purchase price.
- “Hopefully, the city does not decide to try another new set of trains or another new model for future expansions”.
- “Execution was flawed on so many levels.”
Your comments are welcome!
However, we want to make sure everyone is aware that our videos are very much an opinion piece.
We do research to convey certain facts, but the main idea of the video is definitely just our opinions on the topic.
And we also believe there are always 2 sides to every coin.
Buses0ctransp0 2019 9-14
cool video, but you need better writing! it seems to be all over the place
also a bit of text on screen can help to make it more straight forward
thanks for the feedback! its a learning experience for us for sure
Does anyone misses the transitway?
I heard that people are complaining about the LRT in Ottawa area.
Yes. LRT did not speed up service at all.
They went with electric trains for the simple fact that the city wants to look like a GREEN city.That's what happens when you let a bunch of tree huggers and granola crunchers be in charge of the system.Line 2 over the life of the train will see a positive cash flow at the end of the life of the train a different story for the bus that currently run.
I would let them have it if they also made Line 2 electric... but guess what the new trains are also diesel, so I have no idea what they want
@@TransitAtoB Diesel with an option to switch to Hydrogen Fuel Cells.
This video does not document a "Colossal Failure". It documents a complex project that suffered some expensive teething problems. This sort of thing is quite normal for projects of this scope. Downvote for the clickbait title.
‘..tree huggers and granola crunchers’ ? Now that is just silly! Why electric? Almost every LRT or heavy rail system in the world uses electric traction and for good reasons: no pollution at the point of use and if the electricity come from renewables - very little pollution overall, regenerative breaking - whereby some of the energy in the train when breaking can be captured and reused, electric vehicles are cheaper in the long term (electric vehicles have fewer moving parts than their diesel counterparts), faster acceleration which means that more stops can be fitted in and a quieter and smoother ride. My guess is that the first line used diesel because the scheme was tentative - cheapness and speed of implementation - and that they will eventually electrify.
Line 2 is on their 3rd set of trains, still diesel 🤷🏻♂️
Yes and electrification is very expensive. We would have had it electrified some years ago but an new incoming Mayor and Council cancelled that NS LRT contract/project and had to pay millions to Siemens in cancellation fees. Re-starting and re-planning for EW set all back by a decade.