Tribe - Sebastian Junger BOOK REVIEW
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- Опубліковано 27 сер 2024
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Review Starts at: 1:36
Can't believe I neglected to mention the 'Sun Dance' practiced by certain tribes.
Look it up.
It feels like home
People find their lives lacking in meaning not because they arent fighting everday for survival, but because they've lost even the most basic intimacy with their immediate environment. Reverting to tribal life isn't the answer, finding a sense of belonging and activity within a community is.
Almost like nature and community is a tribe 🤯
Reminds me of David Foster Wallace’s work, which i think was kind of an exploration of those feelings of unhappiness and alienation.
“I was about 30 and I had a lot of friends who were about 30, and we'd all, you know, been grotesquely over-educated and privileged our whole lives and had better healthcare and more money than our parents did. And we were all extraordinarily sad. I think it has something to do with being raised in an era when really the ultimate value seems to be - I mean a successful life is - let's see, you make a lot of money and you have a really attractive spouse or you get infamous or famous in some way so that it's a life where you basically experience as much pleasure as possible, which ends up being sort of empty and low-calorie. But the reason I don't like talking about it discursively is it sounds very banal and cliche, you know, when you say it out loud that way. Believe it or not this was - this came as something of an epiphany to us at around age 30, sitting around, talking about why on earth we were so miserable when we'd been so lucky.”
I think we as a species has become disconnected hugely by our "new way of life" a couple years ago i was sitting around xmas dinner with the fam, and we were all on our phones, i didnt notice at first, but as i got bored of facebook, i wanted to talk and when i looked up to try to talk everyone else was on their phones and not participating in xmas...like at all.
after this i had my phone removed of data and i couldn't go online. the only time i could go on social media was after work once i was done chores dinner and what not. but because of this i noticed i became more connected to people. (well those who didnt have "smartphones" aka "spyphones") the odd time an elderly person would come to me and ask about our job and what we were doing. and i would end up chatting with them for my whole lunch while my co workers just sat quiet on their phones not even really being there.
i think everyone should get together like a community again once a week no phones no internet. just people , talking games to play and musical instruments
The Army fulfilled my sense of tribal life. As a soldier you feel a close sense of brotherhood, you are made to feel important and needed among the group. Running and singing cadence in the morning seemed to be a spiritual shared experience. I can understand why so many people feel depressed after leaving the army, you miss the brotherhood, the sense of belonging, the shared misery of everyday life. The life most of us live in modern society is one of loneliness, we do not live with the people we work with, we rarely know our neighbors, the sense of belonging and purpose is lost, the tribe is scattered. Why are so many vets homeless? I would guess that many have returned to tribal life that is found among the homeless that they couldn't find elsewhere..
Because I am not the most social person ever and I like to spend my time mostly alone, the notion discussed in this to live in such small groups depending on eachother somehow terrifies me.
Though personally, I still think we need each other to stay sane, but I think it has a lot to do with my spirituality more than anything. I am not religious at all, but very spiritual and my spirituality kind of builds upon the idea that we're all somehow connected to each other and our environment.
Still, I would be very interested in reading Junger's book as I liked to be challenged by new/different ideas. I found that notion very interesting that when there is conflict within a country or region, our minds are so occupied that we somehow start to put the bigger picture in front again and neglect our own, smaller problems, therefor are mentally more "healthy". I think we can already see that in smaller versions, a lot depressions start when a huge project, life or work related, is done and you somehow feel you're now in a void of doing nothing. That can also be after finishing school/College
BetweenLinesAndLife happen to be an infp?
I can't believe people get "bored", I just don't get it. We are human beings living on planet earth, if anything the day is too short my numbered years are not enough. There is so much everyone can do to make themselves feel important, not just feel but be. Even the tiniest life events we take for granted; I am still fascinated that something as delicious as a watermelon can be grown by sun air and water. Learn a language, learn how to better yourself through working out and eating good, walk dogs at a shelter, help the old lady get her favorite bag of chips off the top shelf, show up at a protest, ask someone how they are doing. Some people get called to higher actions, they dedicate their lives building school houses in Kenya, getting homeless people jobs and housing, making laws etc. However, I believe even the smallest action, thought, feeling and opinion makes someone "important".
It's all about having a purpose and a life sustaining interest which contributes in some meaningful manner. There are so many people for whom if you said that to it would be like you are speaking to them in Chinese.
A solution can be found in joining a sub-community. A friend of mine joined a cyclist group and he became the coordinator. So, probably a person can develop a hobby and join people who share the same interest
ive participated in three of those tribes. grew up small town 27000. Was stationed on a very small base 200 people for 3 years. Lived in a city for 45 years. If you are in a small town growing up, you know much of the town and the town knows you. if it happens to be a cultured town (all american city). There was time to enjoy the life of front porch, visiting grandma and whiling a way a summer afternoon. I would "never go home again". In the service the small base of 200 where food, health and responsibility were limited to 8 hours a day, there was plenty of time to reflect with friends and enjoyed doing nothing. Like sitting in an outdoor cafe with wine, cheese and bread. In the big city there are no friends and there is isolation. With the help of Zoloft (removes depression) I would choose a city over my hometown. Because, there are more possibilities to choose from. You learn to make your own decisions and deal with what happens. Where as the local culture in a small town limits freedom of thought. "The heart is a lonely hunter" comes to mind. Putting new people in the mix on a small isolated base is very tempting. Especially since it was on the Aegean. Strangers become friends over night. The catch was that you will leave and your friend will leave. No long term commitments. Sort of made it a fantasy world. I think the isolation in a big city is where I would end up. The stimulation (art, sports, education, job opportunties) , the opportunity to see change, the cultural possibilities, the freedom to leave or stay.
in 1950 there were 2.5 billion people on this planet. Now, 7.4 billion or so.... so I like less rather than more people. If you leave home you keep running into people now. even in small isolated communities.
great review! ever considered doing a book club?
By chance I just rewatched Taxi driver before this video, and it's theme of dissociation with society, and trying to do something of purpose in life seems very applicable to Travis Bickle
So here are a couple of thoughts...
First and foremost I find it to be contradicting to say that modern men in western society are deprived of hardship and then stating that we life in a society in which we have to take on individualistic struggles and be constantly competitive. We should be concrete here and say that we lack communal struggles. That our struggles are highly individualized even though they are similar. Think about the emerging phenomena of the "working poor" and the "precariat". Think about the condition that many milenials find themselves in that are highly educated and qualified but struggle to find jobs outside of underpaid precarious project based work. (The constant bashing of milenials as "crybabies" becomes ironic behind this backround) The problem is that modern (neo) liberalism as an ideology and in its manifestations in concrete societal structures has individualized the every day struggle for a decent life and broken up meaningful communities such as workers unions into atomized individual "entreprenours of the self". As someone who has read a lot of critical theory (and yes also those damned french thinkers that people like Jordan Peterson loves to hate) the analysis posed by Junger do not come accross as anything new. They just seem as the logical consecquences of capitalist (post)-modernity. And no I am not saying "uuuh fuck capitalism" I am saying that capitalism is the social structure through which we have to analyze the phenomena posed by Junger.
Maybe reading Georg Simmel (along with Durkheim) is interesting here. Simmel proposes that modern capitalist societies that are characterized by the monetary economy are highly individualized because MONEY INDIVIDUALIZES. It individualizes because it reduces social relations to their functions. The only relationship I have with the cornerstore owner in my building is purely functional because I pay him with the most inpersonal good and I live in a city where i have the same corner store on every cornern. To see this as a totally negative thing is wrong though because modern individualization has brought us the individual freedom to be left alone. In a tight knit community where social relations are not functional but are governed by the the communal rules of "common decency" the communal warmth comes with a ton of supressive restriction. Having your own head, thinking differently, being gay, trans whatever will be persecuted by exclusion. Yes in a cumminty of soldiers you mind find meaning in a common struggle but think about what happens once you behave "out of line". I don't wanna know how it must have been like being openly gay in the trenches of any modern war. In a modern city where the day to day interactions are mostly functional there you can not be excludet for dressing, loving or behaving differently. The multicultural cities that we live so much like new york, berlin etc. could only have emerged under the circumstances of modern "aliention" and individualization. The tendency that Simmel saw in the modern city are radicalized in the internet. Social relations here are so functionalized that they come with no social pressure at all. My relation to you are purely functional: I get book recommendations. If I see something that I dont like on your channel, like you praising Jordan Peterson I can leave a dislike or unsub. No repercussions, no pressure. I do not depend on any deep connection with anyone to get what I want, like I would in a struggle, lets say in war, depend on my fellow soldiers to survive.
I am sure that Bataille is important for this kind of analysis because he shows the importance of erotic, non-utilitarian and even violent relationships for human and social life. His alternative economy is basically an all out attack on the ideas of functionalism and utilitarianism that have been so important for liberal modernity.
If you are reading this Clifford may I propose two follow up readings which could be helpful after reading Junger (none of which I have read tbh):
1. Berardi - Heroes. This is a study of depression and suicide in our current times that could be a nice add on to durkheim. I have to warn you though Berardi is one of those terrible leftist postmodernist who hates free speech and so on.
2. Michel Maffelosis books on postmodern tribes. Maffelosi is also very influenced by bataille and analyzes a return of the tribes in postmodern times. Maybe a good counter point to Junger.
Saw Sebastian on Joe Rogan's podcast and i found it so extraordinary. I just bought Tribe as well. It's a quick and excellent read. I love the concept and execution. Thanks for another great review, Clif
Disaster bringing people together is also a common theme in JG Ballard's work. Believe you've already reviewed his book Crash...
Tobias Baughan I deleted it. Terrible review. Incredible book. Time for a rereview.
You still had me hooked back then man. But yeah we're all learning. Super review here
Absolutely agree & love this review. I've thought a lot on this topic and it's exactly why I aspire to set my life up somewhere relatively rural and with a small tight knit community of people who all know and love each other as opposed to living the nihilistic, "taxi driver-syndrome" inner city lifestyle that so many fall victim to. Great work man
I need to write A self evaluation essay on this book. I haven’t read the book yet but it’s due really soon. That’s why I’m looking up stuff about the book to get a good understanding on Tribe
Here in the Netherlands there are these people who meet, just to beat each other up. They form two groups and start bashing. Listening to your story, I can imagine more of these groups forming in the future. Me personally, I just go to the gym.
Any links for info on that?
eenvandaag.avrotros.nl/item/eerder-gehoord-hooligans-organiseren-knokpartijen/
It's in Dutch. It mentions that dozens of these events have occured in the last couple of years.(first link)
Here's a second example.( no info, just action).
ua-cam.com/video/ETWFCUBJ4Mo/v-deo.html
In my first response I wasn't aware they were football hooligans. Perhaps people will find it less strange now. But still, keep in mind that these fights are especially arranged at a later date, so I'm not sure if it's all football related or if it's also an outlet for rage and anger.
You're right, they are football hooligans. Crazy shit.
Is the founder an insomniac with a split personality disorder?
guitarvibe75 funny you should ask. The next book’s narrator is. Used to spend a lot of time in Ikea.
Incredible book, I've went threw it twice and recommended it to all my closet friends. Considering the time we are going through now, with Coronavirus, I believe community and being there for people (with a social distance) means more than it has ever done in my life time.
It used to be that the Church was our tribe. We've become alienated from that tribe.
I’m 14, I never read books, the only books I read are for school but never for fun, but I saw the book Tribe it’s my father and idk if I should read it cuz i don’t want to be bored so i came here to see a review about it
I'm convinced. On my reading list. Thank you for sharing. And your channel is a treasure.
The book ends rather abruptly, it does not provide concrete solutions. Probably because there are none at the society level.
Check out the essay "metropolis and modern life" by Georg Simmel. its a great piece of work on urban centers, freedom, and social malaise, and heavily contributes to thinking on modern social disconnection.
It is not a radical ideal to want a more communal influence on our society. However, how and what that entails is what I believe is a major conversation of the last century. After all, communism and capitalism have been struggling internationally since WWII propelled human life into modernity; That struggle is a personification of our search for meaning as individuals on a massive scale. It's a socio-political and economic development as much as it is a psychological one. But these ideas seem too heady for most people to even grasp, for our societies have grown too complex for the everyday man or woman to take a breath and reflect.
Also for people that liked this book, Ishmael by Daniel Quinn explores similar ideas.
Beard is looking good Cliff!
I love this book! Every time I come back to this channel, I laugh at how parallel our reading lists are.
Man, so much nuance in your comments. Bravo!
Read Flann O' Brien's The Third PoliceMan. It will blow your mind. Better yet...Just read him.
Thank you for the great review.haven't read the book yet. but I have read Civilized to Death, The Overstory, The New Human Rights Movement and The Spell of the Sensuous all of which address or touch on these issues. We are a dying species. We are destroying our habitat at an alarming rate. If there is a way capitalism can effectively address habitat destruction and poverty and gross socioeconomic inequality then I am all ears. So far, its only gotten worse despite the great things you talk about that we have gained. In other words,all these technological advance aren't going to amount to anything without a home.
14:36 Oh how true that came to be
We felt the same way about the book. When I read your opening line I was like sheeshhhh and couldn’t disagree lol
Is it the society or technology
very good review I wish you could one day review the Dee Brown's book. Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. regards
I think this kind of gives more validation to Ligotti :D Anyways this was very thought provoking and interesting. Thanks Cliff!!
I love my people
maybe people should learn to stay still
Van Gogh with the look.
Subbed after watching a few videos. Good stuff.
Nice GSH reference.
loved this book.
So the book is a downer....hilarious. Quality read or not, my friend?
and u can always find a way to be useful. there are always problems to solve. people just dont pay attention. they just want people to pay attention to them. if one is selfish he will suffer.
Blockchain is the revolutionary technology (as revolutionary as Internet, if not more) which will allow us to be "Tribal" digitally again. Important decisions are distributed and are made by the group as a whole. No centralized authority.
A solution can be found in joining a sub-community. A friend of mine joined a cyclist group and he became the coordinator. So, probably a person can develop a hobby and join people who share the same interest