It’s easy and not particularly useful to criticize the most extreme version of FIRE. For most people FIRE is living below your means, examining your values, setting realistic goals, and doing the math to figure out if you can retire before 60. Probably most people can’t (or won’t) do this but it is an idea many can consider.
Agreed. One of the nice things about FIRE is that it doesn’t actually ruin anything. You can always choose to keep working or go back to work after a short “retirement” if the lifestyle isn’t for you. It’s not exactly ruining your life to have substantial retirement savings by age 30/40/50.
This this this! Agree on almost all points. Living below your means and saving more than the suggested savings rate is the main goal of mine. Not necessarily retiring as early as humanly possible and sacrificing life in the meantime. My big thing is I set aside a savings rate and make sure to hit that rate. From there, I can spend money on things I enjoy. But I know I am hitting my rate higher than what they recommend to retire at 65, keeping me ahead of 99% of people my age. I do think most people can do this. But you're right, they WON'T do this. My goal is to COAST retire sometime in my early 50s. Still work, but part time and at a job I like much more than a traditional job, and what makes enough money so I either don't have to withdraw from my savings at all, or withdraw so little that I still out pace inflation and grow my net worth regardless. Maybe withdraw 2% to make up the difference from working full time to part time, and see my money still grow.
@@LLivLLaffLLuv Also. No one should ever regret FIRE nor blame FIRE for the reason for their unhappiness. If FIRE causes you to be unhappy, it's just your mentality towards it and/or your inability to understand it doesn't make you do anything. It's still your choice. All FIRE does for me, is give me CHOICE! Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm a fan of any movement that disrupts the idea of working 40 hours or more a week until we're too old to enjoy it. My husband and I were interested in the fire movement. We also don't have kids, but we paid off our house and now only one of us works: me. I also want to retire early, but since the pandemic hit and I work from home, time that was previously spent commuting is now spent making tie dye, thrifting and sewing. I'm 40 years old and I thank my younger self profusely for saving, investing, and keeping low expenses. Whether it's retiring early or maybe just working 4 days a week or not commuting, any time I can get back now for fun stuff is huge and I am thankful for it.
I think frugality is a virtue, not because it involves being cheap or stingy, but because it involves reflecting on what you value instead of consuming out of habit.
It's a more conscious way of living. People are often surprised at how much further they can push themselves, or that they can skip a meal without dying, or eat a smaller portion, or just drink water instead of a sugary soda or a 1000-calorie coffee, or make their own bag lunches instead of dropping thousands of dollars per year of after-tax money on lunches out. We tend to be creatures of habit, but it is easy to never realize how far we have let that get, to the point that ordinary behavior looks crazy or ridiculous to us.
@@dingfeldersmurfalot4560 It's funny how habits are perpetuated by feedback. You can be tempted into a bad habit, assuming it's key to making you happy, when the alternative is "quit whining." How else is snake oil sold? It's entirely possible that your job becomes more bearable when you and the rest of the department eats lunch out, and can even become more productive when you all detect new opportunities you missed in the office. Just don't be pressured to match someone else's habit to buy the catch of the day .
@@MRCKify I used to get caught in those socialization traps, very easy in an office heavy with office politics. But it's much more difficult to keep up with the Joneses when you're not at the top of your financial circle already. The same x$ lunch that is trivial to your work buddy can be at least cumulatively catastrophic to you. I've found time and again that the office friends I was trying to cultivate were never really friends anyway for the most part by far, and I forgot them as easily as they forgot me. You can spend a lot of money creating false affinities. And when push comes to shove, those office friends may stick a knife in your back -- or refuse to help you when someone else does -- just as quickly as anyone else. Including all those not embroiled in your bull****. Simply getting involved in cliques in the first place almost inevitably corrodes many of the best things about anyone ... and the toll can accumulate quickly ...
I see the FIRE movement similarly as people who are really into crossfit. Its certainly not for everyone, but I don't see it as a bad thing It's an extreme lifestyle that works for some but not for the majority. It generally doesn't affect anyone but the person who is doing it (unless you are FIREing by scamming/screwing over other people somehow of course).
What i like about FIRE: the idea that you should not mindlessly spend your entire paycheck every month, and especially that you should not mindlessly upgrade to a more expensive lifestyle as your career picks up steam. What i don't like about FIRE: the focus on passive income in ways that often take advantage of poor people (such as becoming a landlord), and just in general that the movement is mostly about people who _can_ save half their salary and still live comfortably enough
Here in Australia becoming a landlord is way less lucrative than investing. The costs are astronomical and the tenants don’t understand how much we have to put in just to keep on top of it all, in the hope that property values will increase. We effectively subsidise accomodation for our tenants and would not say I am taking advantage of the poor!
@@jmecklenborg In my experience, tenants would rather see if I want to sneer at the landlord with them rather than report a maintenance issue. They live like their lives are on display, as if the landlord and the 3-body maintenance crew can magically see past their privacy and attend to them like a parent.
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I'm a single, 43-year-old father who resides in Hamburg. If everything continues to go well for me, I intend to retire at age 50. I couldn't be happier right now than I am that I just bought my first house last month. I'm so happy that I made wise choices that altered my life forever.
Salutations, dude. At your age, you're doing extremely well. I'm 54 years old, and right now my finances are a mess. Any helpful advice would be greatly appreciated in helping to mold my life. I want to buy a home of my own.
It seems like I used the FIRE movement to manage my finances. Investigate it further by doing some research. With the help of a financial professional, they were then successful when investing in stocks, cryptocurrencies, and real estate.
'Carol Vivian Constable, a highly respected figure in her field. I suggest delving deeper into her credentials, as she possesses extensive experience and serves as a valuable resource for individuals seeking guidance in navigating the financial market.
I came across your channel through this video-case studies are incredibly valuable, and I'm eager to see more in the future! Building wealth involves establishing routines, like consistently setting aside funds at regular intervals for smart investments.
You're correct. I think the smartest way to go is to spread out your investments. By putting your money into different asset classes like bonds, real estate, and stocks from other countries, you can lower the risk if one part of the market goes bad.
Talking about a financial market specialist, do you consider anyone worthy of recommendations? I have about 100k to test the waters now that large cap stocks are at a discount... Thanks
My CFA NICOLE ANASTASIA PLUMLEE a renowned figure in her line of work. I recommend researching her credentials further... She has many years of experience and is a valuable resource for anyone looking to navigate the financial market..
My philosophy is financial freedom. I'm not focused on retirement. I do want to live below my means, build investments and passive invome and have the freedom to choose what I do.
This my husband’s and my philosophy. We definitely save for retirement and for emergencies. We live below our means so we can live comfortably now and later.
If you have to be a landlord to do it it's not worth it. We are in a housing crisis and people turning a necessity to live into a retirement plan so they can retire at 40 is not fucking helping
Problem is real estate is how many end up with wealth. Besides how many people do you know who do not have a huge percentage of their net worth in housing?
It's not all are bad though my landlord is young and he has apartments and trailers for rent well below the market value. He takes hud but it's affordable even for where i live if i didn't have hud it would only be $375 a month and it's not a dump i even have a dishwasher. I would have to find a place for twice that to get a dishwasher and hud only covers up to 550 for a one bedroom which is what most one bedrooms are here. My sister lives next door in a 2 bed room and hers is only $400 or 425 a month i forget which. The problem is people like Dave Ramsey who raises the rent whenever he can just because he can. He wants to retire early but he's not hurting people to do it. He works a lot of hours in a dangerous job which is most high paying jobs around here. I wouldn't want to be a prison guard the rest of my life either.
I think having an emphasis on "how would I rather spend my time if I had complete control over it" would be a better goal than the goal of living as frugally as possible and not contributing to society. I think most people would find that it isn't working that they hate, it's doing a job they don't care about!
I met a woman at the condo mail boxes the first day of her retirement. She told me she was now going to start doing the things that she put off doing because of working. She dropped dead of a heart attack 7 days later at the very same mail boxes. How sad.
@oaktree_ I recommend the deepest well by dr Nadine Burke Harris, same concept but focused on traumatic childhood experiences that cause chronic stress. Very sad but illuminating!
As a Washington DC suburban mom, the busyness is bred into kids. It’s a competition for these target moms to get their kids into all things every minute of the day. Kids don’t know the value of calm, rest, peace, and the ability to just be in a simple way.
That’s why we love the PNW area. Tech workers actually stop working in the evenings. Balanced life is valued. East coast in general has a hustle culture probably because of the finance sector.
While FIRE takes privilege, I really do like the underlying ideals of freedom and time being the most valuable assets. Before I learned about FIRE, I just assumed I would work until I was 65 and that this should be normal.
Hey Chelsea! Fun true story: A couple years ago, I started watching your financial independence videos and you made a mention of a steps counting app that you used for a while to get back into shape. It gave me the idea to continue listening to your youtube videos and later to your financial confession podcasts WHILE walking. I’ve been doing that ever since and have gotten back into shape. The app tells me I have walked the equivalent of 13 ironman triathlons since I started. Lost 50 pounds, got rid of high blood pressure, sleep apnea and back pains. I look like a million bucks now , so if only for that, I’d be your type. Thanks!
Though I've never been a huge FIRE guy I felt super called out by your description of the early FIRE enthusiast. It's always struck me as odd that people who like me have hit the literal jackpot when it comes to the income to cost of living ratio, so many decide to deprive themselves of many of the joys of life. What's the point of racing towards a retirement when the person who will be retiring has defined themselves by not doing anything for fun except bragging that their only hobby is trading penny stocks? Life costs money, I've been lucky enough to get into things like woodworking at a younger age than many people because I have the disposable income to spend. The idea of not spending it for 30 years so I can retire early sounds like a great way to not get to do what I enjoy for 30 years, and then dying of boredom.
This is probably my main issue with it too. I always enjoyed making things and was good at it, woodworking among others. Hobbies that are frequently not cheap or with low return. As an engineering student, I think retirement will simply be an excuse to do something different, if I choose to wait that long anyway.
i just wanna share my story of how as a couple we got to the position of my partner being the hustling tech guy with me being the stay at home frugal partner...summary: debilitating health issues, living in an expensive city (Sydney Australia), government couldn't help me w sick pay because occasionally when he does overtime the number on his pay-check hits jut the number that doesn't allow me to get that support, frequent medical specialists and tests cost me AUD$200 -300 out of pocket after medicare rebate.. We play the so called "individual frugal game" (w monthly charity donations) because its the only option we found to a path that has brought some relief from the struggle and will hopefully continue giving us more relief.... if he succeeds in the tech field he is in, we might be able to move to the countryside with his family in England, which will immensely benefit me and his father due to our health conditions (small towns makes us feel part of the community as they are more accessible) , we will finally have more leisure time as he spends hours of daily commuting in Sydney, we will have time to work on our relationship, afford some pockets of joy, we will have time and means to care for the elderly in our family... while having a level of financial security. So far our quality of life has improved even with all the frugality and he is not even close to 6 figures.
Yeah, i think there's to much focus on the retire-early idea in this movement. Like, if you already have a hobby you do every week, and you are willing to give up other luxuries so you can do your hobby all week long than that makes sense to me. But it doesn't make sense to work yourself crazy with tons of sidehustles in order to retire early and than discover you are boredAF
@@sd-ch2cq Yes, I have rich family member doing that right now and they are miserable. For me a mild version of it can bring financial security in certain situations like mine
people like you sound like your coping with the fact you cannot do it. I find it the case when people online speak about home ownership... FIRE wood make your woodworking example even better than it currently is. Who says you cannot spend money either. If you do not understand the concept to begin with you should not be on here critiquing it
It’s telling how the people who are early-FIRE leaning are focused on feelings, like being basic, while others are focused on the material realities of their current situation that hinders early FIRE goals. There’s a reason why people can do well in a high earning industry/ job and a low-expenses lifestyle, while investing the difference - it’s math. High earnings, especially in LCOL is the jackpot.
Interesting to see this video, I started following Mr. Money Moustache in ~2015/2016, and as a result was really interested in FIRE for a few years. I do think Pete at least still has some pretty good investing advice, as well as a good anti-consumerism and low-car mindset, but beyond that, I've come to realize that FIRE is really unattainable for a lot of people because of the socioeconomic factors that you mention. I'd still listen to him over Dave Ramsey any day.
i just wanna share my story of how as a couple we got to the position of my partner being the hustling tech guy with me being the stay at home frugal partner...summary: debilitating health issues, living in an expensive city (Sydney Australia), government couldn't help me w sick pay because occasionally when he does overtime the number on his pay-check hits jut the number that doesn't allow me to get that support, frequent medical specialists and tests cost me AUD$200 -300 out of pocket after medicare rebate.. We play the so called "individual frugal game" (w monthly charity donations) because its the only option we found to a path that has brought some relief from the struggle and will hopefully continue giving us more relief.... if he succeeds in the tech field he is in, we might be able to move to the countryside with his family in England, which will immensely benefit me and his father due to our health conditions (small towns makes us feel part of the community as they are more accessible) , we will finally have more leisure time as he spends hours of daily commuting in Sydney, we will have time to work on our relationship, afford some pockets of joy, we will have time and means to care for the elderly in our family... while having a level of financial security. So far our quality of life has improved even with all the frugality and he is not even close to 6 figures.
In my opinion the healthcare costs, whether insurance or having to pay out of pocket, or just the stress of not knowing if you will be wiped out financially if you have a health crisis of any kind, is the largest detriment to a life where you could live with any financial security. And the U.S. has made it clear they will never fix this problem.
Yup. I had everything wiped out by age 22 by medical debt. It taught me early that financial security in the USA is virtually impossible for someone who is chronically ill.
as someone who is not from the USA, no matter how many times i hear someone make this point you are making, it still completely shocks me that you have to live life under that horrible cloud.
Agreed, health insurance is the #1 reason why retiring early is just a straight up gamble, unless you somehow have "I just won the lottery" kinds of money.
I’m a software engineer and moved to a high cost of living area to avoid commuting costs, then moved back to a low cost of living area during covid to WFH and achieve FIRE. Now my job wants people to go back in to the office. Needless to say I’m fighting it, and if I lose, I’m switching jobs.
I was so relieved when my job announced recently that we wouldn’t be forced to go back to the office. I hope you’re able to have the WFH career that’s best for you:)
It’s a very hot market right now. I say that as someone trying to hire software engineers. Start applying for work in other places right away. You will probably end up finding a full remote job, probably with a raise as well.
The r/financialindependence subreddit is super chill. I got my first job out of grad school in September and somehow stumbled upon that sub. They've taught be a ton and have always been super helpful with my questions. It is a little weird in that the majority of them are working in tech or engineering and making $100k+ however, even as a less than $60k government employee it's been very nice getting the FIRE perspective. I'm naturally quite frugal so it may work or it may not, but for now I'm putting away 40+% of my gross away so that I have the option if I want to take it.
If you have real concerns, like how to pay for life insurance if you retire early, they hand wave it away like you're being silly. They also act like it's so easy to save a million dollars. I think they are speaking to a high earning subset of people.
@@mostHumblePersonAlive They really don't, at least not in that sub. Other subs may be less moderated. But in my experience they're pretty self-aware that they're in very privileged positions.
Wow! That’s great! I’m putting away about 30-40% of my income (401k is gross, rest is net) right now. Basically, I’m preparing to own my own house and all that jazz. Putting away 40% of gross is like 75% of net! Congrats! (I have no deductions so high taxes.)
I practice FIRE and I definitely have criticisms of it. Most of people in the U.S. can't achieve it because we do not have universal healthcare. If you do retire early, you are omitting the highest grossing salary years which often is at the end of your career. Most people who reach FIRE, don't retire; they often work on the side, start their own businesses, or jobs that they like. Also a lot of FIRE people geo-arbitrage to lower cost of living areas (even countries). They are essentially gentrifying entire cities and dramatically increasing the cost of living for the locals.
What FIRE touches on is that traditional financial advice feels outdated. I was at a financial seminar put on by my company for people in their mid thirties to forties. The advice was that this was the time we needed to begin cutting our expenses. But the reality was, for most of us, this was when we were just finally able to afford a house and start thinking about kids. Most of us left discouraged that we would never be able to retire and we have traditional white collar jobs. FIRE feels more in touch with modern sentiments.
But wouldn’t FIRE be telling you to do the same? I’m confused how the advice is different. FIRE seems to be encouraging lean living for the long run to be able to not be work-dependent to support a bloated standard of living.
I just wanna play League of Legends, hang out, read or learn in my free time. Not gonna make myself unhappy trying to achieve "financial independence". I know what it is like to be unhappy. I consider being happy such a privilege and a gift that I will spend most of my life wanting to be happy and being happy. Says someone who has struggled with depression most of their lives.
@@lucia7234 😂 for real. Not even kidding. Even when people flame I find it funny. Even when I'm having a bad game I still enjoyed playing. Some days I'm tired of League and only want to read, go see friends, just hang with family or code. League if funny man. It always when me laugh especially when people are flaming or someone is just bad. It doesn't matter if the person is on my team or theirs. What's funny is funny 🤣 Edit: I guess when you have had a life like mine you can't be too upset playing a game
Studying for my CPA (Canada) and the tax system is fundamentally flawed and heavily favored towards home-owning (🏠1+) couples, with one higher earner than the other, who may or may not have kids. It taxes income, not assets -> so once you put money into an asset, the value isn't recycled back into the economy. Hence why boomers are holdjng onto 4+ bedroom homes for 2M dollars as retirement plans and rich people own things like art (which has special tax rules). Single, young people with middle income jobs who rent, are smoked by the tax system, paying extremely high taxes relative to their PPP. Taxes on rich doesnt work because their wealth isnt their income, its their net assets. Im so fcking tired of hearing societal gaslighting on this topic when the issue is the disproportionate tax benefits we have for certain segments of the population qhen they are already advantaged in so many ways through our tax systems. Drives me nuts and things like the FIRE movement (by the sounds of it) perpetuates this bs further. Also the capitalist "just reduce taxes" and they socialist "just offer more subsidies", both dont work because they tax rate isnt the issue, it's who keeps getting tax benefits (couples, with one higher earner, buying/owning a home). Changing who gets the tax benefits vs gets more taxes compared to their purchasing power is how to shift the framework, not more or less tax or doing the same thing over and over again.
I know that there is a large chance that I will feel differently about this by the time I am 50-but-after being unemployed due to Covid and feeling absolutely miserable, I think I am the type of person that would enjoy working at least part-time until I am physically unable. Not because I just love toiling my life away, but because it gives me a loose structure to build around and some normalcy, if that makes sense.
How early is "retire early"? I agree that retiring at age 29-35 is a bit extreme, but doing it at 50-55, which is still quite early, is possible for a lot more people. Actually, I think if you retire before your 64th year and 364th day, you are retiring early!
The problem (at least in the US) is funding health expenses in that 55-65 age range. It's better since the ACA, but still extremely expensive - largely because the likelihood that you'll actually have significant health expenses is quite high.
You're right, and if you want to retire before SSI and Medicare kick in (or don't want to live a meager retirement) it just makes sense to take a clue from the FIRE movement and see how it can be done.
I want to retire by 55 and only because I had a child late in life and I want to work until he turns 16 and his college account and some savings for him are fully vested as well as savings for me. I realize though that I probably will not be able to live in the US because the cost of healthcare until I can get medicare is astronomical.
I've posted about retiring before (happened last week, and being just about 55, it's kind of early), and I'll just re-enforce Chelsea's point about setting a plan early and just doing your best about that. BUT, at the same time as my happy day, quite a few other fellow employees found out on Wed that they were retiring the same time as me. While I recognize that the DIY aspect is, well... the fact that many didn't get to retire on their terms reminds me that planning as early as you can is super important. But for most people, we work so that we can live. So please keep some balance.
At first I was like "Imagine shilling for crypto in The Financial Diet comment section." Now I'm convinced it's a bunch of bots because this many people cannot be this ignorant to the actual content of the video or just have that much audacity.
@@NataliaNNS I hadn't noticed them before so it took me aback for a minute before I realized they weren't actual TFD viewers. I can't think of less fertile ground for spreading the scamy MLM that is crypto/NFTs than this channel.
such a timely video for me! finally getting back into FIRE. I absolutely disagree with saving every dollar and avoiding fun at all costs but I loooove an anti-consumerist perspective when it comes to spending. in short, it feels like planning your fun so its not impulsive and detrimental to your financial and physical/mental health goals!
If nothing else, it’s given me “permission” to live according to MY values, rather than others’. I live abroad and like eating local foods, getting to know citizens of the country and making my own cocktails, rather than going out and spending literally 20x as much, which is what a lot of expats do.
FIRE has really taught me a lot. I started originally wanting to retire ASAP. Then I reevulated my career plan and... trying to be happy while working. Because I saved so much from 20-30 I am able to spend 30-65 making only as much money as I need to live my day to day life. No more saving for retirement needed. I plan to work a hard, stressful job part time and gain fufillment from it by helping my community. Side note, getting diagonsed and medicated for ADHD made working seem actually fufilling instead of never ending dread. :)
The real problem is that passive income and getting it to live is basically that you want to move from the exploited to the exploiter. I saved so hard in my teens and early 20s. Worked so hard. I honestly feel like I wasted my youth. I'll never get that time back and that has impacts on my life. I never had a girlfriend and never will. I'm so socially awkward. My body is broken. Enjoy your life, live below your means. Keep enough saved to weather storms.
Whenever I hear someone speak like this I worry because well... I knew a guy. But the fact that you speak about your feelings so openly is a positive sign. It's harder meeting new people as you grow older but I reckon you'll find someone. All the best
Pretty much the same way. Just turned 39 and realizing I've spent 25 years spinning my wheels and not a whole lot to show for it except a long resume that most people have no interest in looking at because they want someone who is 29.
Retiring at age 29-35 is like scoring 20 points in the first quarter of a basketball game. That's not the finish line, and you can still lose the game. The finish line is the age when you can no longer physically work. That's when you HAVE to have a retireable amount of money -- just like in basketball where you have to have a winning score at exactly 0:00, not 5 seconds or 5 minutes earlier. In other words, whether you're into FIRE or not, you still have the same goal: achieve retirement when you are too old to work.
Thanks for this! I respect the FIRE community and love a lot of bloggers from there... But I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a bit resentful because most of them are super young, had NO student loans, and landed 6 figure jobs very quickly.
I use to listen to a bunch of other personal finance UA-camrs until I found you, a fellow dem socialist! I SO value your perspective on personal finance and how it intersects with our rigged system.
I appreciate this perspective of FIRE so much. A few years back during a stressful and exhausting time, I submitted a case a to MMM himself. The advice…or public shaming (as I recall it) basically told me to quit my job, sell my van and dedicate my life to maximizing efficiency in my home so my husband could work and we could save on child care (despite the fact that my income is 25 K higher) Needless to say, I didn’t do any of that. What I really needed in that time of my life was an acknowledgment that working full time with two little kids was hard. The most valuable lesson that I learned from the experience was never ask anyone on the internet for advice 😂
I think in general the ideas underlying the FIRE movement are great, it's not perfect and some people take it too far, but if everyone applied these concepts to their lives it would be amazing. I do it for the environmental impact of not buying stuff, not so much for the saving money part honestly.
I appreciate this take! You nicely summarize a lot of what I’ve thought and felt about the gamification of money. I think a holistic view is much more realistic, accessible and necessary.
Love this! I really got into FIRE a few years ago as a means for long-term financial stability and more control over my time. It didn't work for me to be super frugal and constantly optimize our lowish income in a HCOL area, and it's been a hard mentality to break. I saw stepping back from pursuing FIRE as a personal failure instead of (like you said) the current system being patently unfair and inaccessible to most of us. I'm trying to reframe my mentality and seeing TFD videos like this really help. Individual choices are fine on a small scale, but I really appreciate your focus on how we can make work/life balance better for everyone. We can ALL have a decent life and not need to kill ourselves doing it! Rock on Chelsea!!
I don't think that's correct at all. Any betterment requires sacrifices. An extraordinarily lofty goal like early retirement is going to of course require extraordinary effort. I don't think Chelsea shies away from admitting that here, nor could she, really. In short, No, you CANNOT have it all.
I like the general mindset of "cull the things you really don't need, and don't lifestyle creep," and a some of their budgeting advice can be genuinely good, but many/most of the FIRE pros I've read don't talk about if/when to pull back from a low-spend lifestyle (generating shame for *gasp* enjoying things that aren't on the discount rack), and there's a lot of push to make "Passive" income through blogs, classes, content production, and real estate, all of which I see as other jobs, and wouldn't work if everyone did. It feels disingenuous that they've side stepped into a different profession (that they greatly enjoy, which is fine), and then falsely claim they've taken up the "Retire Early" side of the moniker.
I hate the term passive income. Besides market investments, you're not making passive income. You put in some kind of direct work at some point in time, and people toss around that word for things like blogging. You may not work a lot, but you still make those blogs. If you mean it's passive because you've done something like buy real estate and then go completely hands off, or start a channel/Amazon flipping/printables or classes/blah blah and then hire someone else to actually do the work afterwards... well then you're just a regular hands off business owner lol You just sit at home in your PJs or go to the beach rather than throwing on a suit and heading to an office or flying around the world to chat with people.
Great video!! Now I have more knowledge about finance. I spent 20 years in the military and unfortunately did not save in a TSP. I am fortunate enough to be retired at age 42 with a profit from my investments and pension. I wouldn't have been able to live my current lifestyle without couple of investment. After taxes I am left with about 25,000 bucks a month, I am debt free and just now starting to invest in real estate. I don't plan on working for someone else ever again. I just live a modest life and now invest heavily in the market with the help of an IA. I do get a 2-3% raise every year for inflation and this income is for the rest of my life. I am blessed and now I live a great stress free life while investing while I am retired.
Congratulations on your early retirement. Right now, I could really use some investment advice or tips on investing. Last year I hesitated until the year ended without making any move. This year I decided to try something because I'm very open to ideas on how I can invest. When I see your comment I believe that you have an experience in it that could be of great help to me. Hope you don't mind sharing?
@@jamesjack2074 It's not a problem at all! I would advise you to determine your investment horizon, but I recommend a long-term plan if you are looking to make a lot of profit on your investment. I created a long term investment plan with Olivia Diane Margaret who helped me invest and manage my investment which helped me a lot.
@@peterjames7001 I appreciate your advice. It's hard to find someone that's reliable. When I see what you've achieved by investing, I could really use your investment advisor., if you don't mind sharing her information.
Having a good financial planner is like having a mentor . I was losing my money trying to invest on my own but it was different from Olivia Diane Margaret . She has played a great role in improving my finances. Long before now, I relied solely on my work and salary. Right now, I have a way of making much money and without stress so I quit working for others . Honestly , investing isn’t a choice anymore but a must for anyone who wish to gain access to a good and an independent life.
No shade but I have very similar feelings about influencers like Aja Dang who say claimed that a lot of people can pay off six-figure debt in less than 2 years because she did...by launching a six-figure media business. For me, some lessons from the FIRE movement seemed _relatively_ more in my control, as in, statistically, I was more likely to get a better job with re-training than I was having a massively successful online business. Edit: I'm also not crazy about becoming a landlord to do it, like Budget Girl. Landlords disenfranchise a lot of people! Not only their tenants, but people who want to buy their primary residence. I still recognize a lot of economic setbacks are systemic. In fact, I wouldn't need to save so much with Medicare4All, UBI, and other programs, so I wouldn't care if I had less returns long-term. The money is just for the goods and services, not the goal! I'm just terrified of living in a roach motel when I'm an old lady...
@@popkorng That's not necessarily true, it's more like they can't buy there because of all the landlords driving up the prices. College towns are decent cosmopolitan spaces for young professionals who don't want to (or can't afford to) live in HCOL areas like NYC or LA. I would live in my nearest college town in a heartbeat as a 30-something if I could afford to buy there.
I don't think I've ever heard Aja claim that anyone could do it in 2 years. Her message has always been it will be different for you and you need to adapf it to your life. I watched her videos from her very first debt video. She only started her business after she paid of her debt. She modeled, youtube, and social influencer work to earn a lucrative living, but wasn't making the income you're claiming.
@@cutiepiemania45 Modeling, being a youtuber, and being a social influencer is all apart of making a media business. I thought it went without saying that it's _all_ media. Of course she had the income I'm claiming if she paid off 200k in a couple years...that's just math. What is meant to be "adaptable" exactly? It's obvious that it takes a large income to pay down six-figure debt fast, so it can't be that. To be a successful, high-earning media figure in less than 5 years? Sure, let's count on a highly improbable career trajectory to pay our crazy high debt 🙃
I’ve always remembered this one FIRE blog post called “pizza delivery is for millionaires” and it talked literally about how, unless you’re a multi millionaire, you’d be crazy to order pizza delivery. Instead you should make and freeze your own pizzas at home. Ok my husband and I enjoy making pizza at home as a hobby, but come on. Living a life where you’re afraid that a $30 pizza delivery is going to wreck your retirement doesn’t sound like much of a life. And just like Chelsea said, it ignores so many macro factors that have a waaaay bigger impact on your finances then whether you order pizza or not 🙄
I don't think 1 pizza wil kill your plans. But if you order pizza lets say ever week it could stack up. But stacking up pizzas and enjoying a big ol pizza stack with a tub of b&j icecream is my kind of caution in the wind move
Yes it feels like advising you to eat baked beans on toast for 25 years to save, so you can be financially independent and eat baked beans on toast for the next 40! Not that i have anything against bakes beans and toast! ;)
@@kevinharris9471 this one specific person runs the Mr Money Mustache blog, which is one of the most popular FIRE blogs. So yes, that person's opinion matters when he is one of the actual leaders of the movement. And im pointing to one specific example to show a large part of the FIRE movement that doesnt make sense.
This is my biggest issue with the financial independence movement, or *any* discussion of frugality. In the wealthiest nations on Earth, while less than 100 people own half the world's capital, people should not be judged, guilted and blamed for ordering pizza or (as the stereotype goes) getting coffee every day.
It's a lot easier to say, Hey, take it easy on the workload and frugality! when you're already secure. Few people are very secure, and young people least of all. Arthur Miller said "There are no second acts in American lives." Things are changing a bit now as jobs and their tenure are becoming more fluid -- tech jobs at least -- but it's still true for most traditional jobs. You have to hustle damn hard and probably have a good bit of luck to come out of your youthful years feeling secure. Nobody's going to give it to anyone but the lucky, so not working more and harder than you might consider sensible, fair, or humane is not an option, anymore than not eating all those rice and beans, ramen noodles, and spaghetti meals are in college. (Took me almost ten years to be able to eat spaghetti again.)
1. Clearly identify your values. 2. Align your spending accordingly and be intentional. 3. Work hard and live below your means. 4. Invest the difference in all market index fund and stay the course. This is a recording.
I was curious about Chelsea's thoughts about FIRE, and she didn't disappoint! It's true, the ability to even strive for FIRE is a massive privilege in the first place. It's also predicated on and supporting of an unsustainably runaway stock market. No one can FIRE off green stocks alone (yet); most prefer index funds that tend to support (currently) overvalued tech stocks, which encourages this capitalist spiral. Thanks for the video--you've earned an RSVP for the Summit from me.
@@MusiKo14 who said anything about ethical or unethical? An accessory apartment increases housing stock in a home you live in. This increases supply and gives people a place to live.
@@mariac.5021 The point of FIRE isn't to never work another day in your life, it's to not HAVE TO work anymore. Making work optional, not never working again. There's a difference.
Some ppl are born worker bees. They work, either working or working to save money. They get depressed when there is no “work” in life but sipping cocktail on the deck. Some ppl work in order to enjoy sipping cocktail on deck during non working hours. They may not retire early but they would certainly have memory of good times. I didn’t wait until retirement to enjoy life; done a whole lot of activities and fun things while working. I have 2 more months to retirement. At 57 I am planning to actively accumulate more fun memories until my body isn’t able to carry me.
Never got too deep into FIRE (my introduction to nonstandard personal finance was "The Four-Hour Work-Week" (which, by the way, does not work, but contains a few good ideas along with plenty of bad)) but hey what's exactly wrong with being a suburban software architect who spends like one or two social classes lower on the totem pole? Once you're earning, say, 150% of the median (after debt service), then more money and stuff physically can't make you that much happier. Time spent with friends and doing what you enjoy seems like a good goal. Personally what bugs me about FIRE more generally is the effects of rent-seeking behavior. If everyone did FIRE, then everyone would have to do FIRE just to get by. So, it might be interesting to take a deeper dive into how we can promote the public well-being from a variety of current status positions.
I’d love to FIRE. I will be able to retire at 45…only issue is, health problems in my family make me fear for my 40s. I may get an easy but low-paying government job just for the healthcare. Or BaristaFIRE. Whatever I need to do to have health insurance. Ideally, I’d work for a state university and get free college classes. For fun. Wouldn’t that be awesome?! Also, note my LeanFIRE goal is essentially 133% poverty level. So not luxurious. But I’d rather be frugal and not work than be stressed out like I am now.
Your description of the FIRE movement seems pretty disconnected from what I've seen from the FIRE movement. I have not seen anyone in the FIRE movement shame people for their choices. Most people talking about FIRE want to move beyond their 9-5 job but also want to share the tools that they used or are using to get there so that others can get there too. I've never seen anyone shame or put down someone for choosing a less lucrative career that makes the path to FIRE slower.
I agree. I think some people read how other people achieve FIRE, compare to what they do personally and then interpret that as throwing shade. It's not. People are in different situations and make different choices and that's fine. If you barely make enough to live on, you're just not going to be able to retire early. If you make only a little more than you need, you might be able to retire a little early if you make that choice. If you make a very high income - you can either spend it all, or you can choose to buy yourself options by investing the overage. None of these things are an indictment of anyone. People just don't always have choices, and people who have choices can make different ones.
Umm have you ever seen Graham Stephan's videos? Dude has an entire series primarily devoted to shaming other peoples' financial decisions called "Millionaire Reacts" 🙄
@@meridoughten9425 ok but Graham is a millionaire real estate investor/financial blogger. I don't think anyone says he speaks for people involved in FIRE.
@@travis1240 Here are links to some of his FIRE-related videos. They are entitled "How to retire by 30 years old," How to retire in 10 years," and "How to live frugally and achieve financial independence." ua-cam.com/video/5S2cRNveZgg/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/-glfrfDLLTs/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/NuYPzliwY78/v-deo.html
fun fact, if I saved every penny I made starting this year (which...is not possibly given that I need to do things like eat and go to the dentist), I could retire super early at the age of...65. And in that case, hyper restriction seems so counter intuitive.
The fiery people that I know don't actually retire. They just get the piece of mind that if something goes wrong, they can keep their lifestyle for a long time before they get into trouble. At a certain point they get less frugal, but they still don't accumulate useless stuff that fills up their apartment.
YES and you never know when you might get the axe at work and be unable (for whatever reason) to find similarly gainful employment. It just makes sense to build your nest egg if you can.
@Funky lundi True, but you can apply many of the principles that are at the centre of the FIRE movement, without Retiring Early being your goal. Financial Independence is always something to pursue, once you can still have a fulfilling life, with enough moments of happiness during the process of the pursuit.
Thank you for reorienting the conversation to the fact that we can have more sustainable work/life balance on the daily if we only put the policies in place (like other countries have done) to make that possible. The highly individualist approach to finances is exhausting.
I don't want any government telling me how I will earn my money OR how I should spend it. I live well below my means and don't want someone else to make choices for me. I am an individual, and no, it is not exhausting to take responsibility for my own actions.
Ole 👏 👏👏 Brilliant and thorough analysis. As a European, I shiver at the inequality of the USA. The individualistic obsession prevents the American society from improving the quality of life of all its citizens. The USA is not a first world country; rather a country where some areas have a first world quality of life whereas others have levels of poverty comparable to developing countries.
Do you know why I sort of embraced FIRE? Worked massive amount of overtime and spent a lot of time away from my kids just to get a 2% increase in pay. I then find out companies that pay dividends hand out 5-10% increases on the regular. Every purchase I make I try to off set it with a dividend stock of equivalent value. Yes my wife took care of the kids while I worked but I also saved 2/3rd of my checks and paid off all my credit card debt, house and both cars by the time I was 38. This allowed us to swap roles so she could go after the career she wanted helping disabled kids in a job that is not huge pay but she never has to worry about being stressed about bills. I am also a realist. We are 30 trillion dollars in debt with a country slowly shifting further and further to the right in terms of power so the chances that Republicans try to raise my retirement age to 70 for SSI is extremely high to try to save it from being cut. Also yeah to fully benefit from FIRE you basically are living like a hermit for a year or two but by 2 month into it you have already saved up more money than 60% of the people you walk by that do not even have a $1,000 saved up.
I LOVE this video! So many valid criticisms of the FIRE movement while still acknowledging what's good about it. While it's great to adopt a savers mindset and encourage people to invest for their future, the FIRE movement does often involve extreme levels of frugality among high-income individuals that is just not possible for most people. Many people have expenses or dependents that cannot be avoided or just want to live a little and go to that concert or take a vacation now rather than wait until they are in their 40's or older to enjoy. More social safety nets related to housing, healthcare, parental time off, etc. could also go a long way towards helping people live a more relaxed, secure lifestyle in the first place.
Hi TFD. I've been following your UA-cam channel for a few years. I really appreciate and enjoy the critical and detailed look at finances, the financial system, the corporate structure, and why or why we cannot build wealth. One major omission on TFD and nearly every other financial blog, vlog, and UA-cam channel is the cost of health insurance in the US. No one talks about tying healthcare to employment and why that ball and chain keeps people from true financial freedom. No one discusses how the cost of healthcare, the monthly cost of self-insuring, keeps people poor and sick, prevents many people, particularly those with dependents from starting a business venture, innovating, taking risks. For those who achieve FIRE, I would like to know how they are covering healthcare, particularly 10, 15, 20 years down the road, when they are still too young for Medicare.
FIRE is not for everyone. But it works for us right now. As someone who has been FIRE for going on a year I can tell you that America's healthcare makes it very difficult to do. We are healthy able bodied people who saved for these huge emergencies and navigating healthcare is STILL a challenge. That said, even if temporary our family will be better for having FIREd (slowly and carefully mind you) rather than not at all.
I think the idea of living for retirement, and therefore wanting to retire as soon as possible, is a massive wrong turn. If you watch some of the investment ads, the message that comes across is that real life doesn't begin until retirement. If you manage to retire, say, twenty years before you could collect Social Security, that still leaves a big chunk of your time on earth as an essentially meaningless grind, a mere prelude to "real life." I would rather live in such a way that at every stage, real life is now. Find dignity in your work, for your labor is contributing to society. Try to find so much meaning in it that you wouldn't mind if you ended up doing it for most of your life. If you reach a point where you can't work, either temporarily or permanently, find ways to make meaning in that. As someone disabled by a long cancer battle, I do not say that lightly. Enjoy whatever recreation you manage to work into each stage of life, but pay attention to whether it is just "play time" or a genuine spiritual pursuit. Living to play is more pathetic than living to work. Many retired people find that it is less satisfying than they expected to be on vacation for the rest of their lives, and start itching to do work that makes a contribution again. Find meaning in your work, in your recreation, and in your inactivity, and manage your money in ways that facilitate all of it.
I guess I'd never seen those hyper individualistic FIRE blogs and I just hung out on reddit so for me the movement was just chill. I would add though, that I am not American, I'm from Spain, and even in countries like mine, where we technically have a social safety net, healthcare, and a government pension at retirement age, the actual situation is that it's basically common knowledge that due to the huge amount of debt, decline in natality, etc, we younger people are gonna have a hell of a hard time retiring confortably. To me the FIRE movement was appealing because I cannot change the fuckin policies of the whole country that bounces between governments every 8 years making fake promises, I can just focus on what I can control. Make more (get into tech). Spend less (live with the parents). Easy. Does it suck? Maybe a bit. Is it individualistic? Maybe. I just cannot be bothered to think of the social viability of every path I take. As you said, you're a Manhattan living DINK female CEO, you care about your employees and your family, you cannot start thinking about if your revenue model of having a youtube channel and making $25 online events is something that literally every american citizen can follow as a living example, you just gotta make your bag and try to add value but cannot focus on whether it's the ultimate social good spreader or whatever. maybe it'd be "More accessible" if it was free, maybe the people who need that value the most are actually the ones who can't pay. idk. and idc either, it's just how you've chosen to do this event, it seems like it was a good event, end of story. Same with how I approach the FIRE movement. Are tech salaries higher than average? yeah. is remote much more common practice in tech? yes. am i trying to get into tech so i can keep low CoL while earning highly? yeah. Can everyone do this? IDK. I know imma try though, i'm getting my english knowledge up, i'm getting my coding abilities up, i'm getting my networking up, etc etc. I'm doin the steps. If it's individualistic to make choices like these because not everyone has the privilege, or the opportunities, or the "talent" or w/e, then i guess I am individualistic. But then I would also question what "not being individualistic" entails. Is it just following the ebbs and flows of whatever surrounds you whether unnecessarily consumeristic. I agree with fighting for social freedoms but I cannot take the win for granted, and when the social safety nets inevitably get taken away I gotta be ready
Basically, the FIRE movement entices a certain personality and not unclusive of other socioeconomic spectrums. It's like they think people exist in a vacuum separate from society.
I am happy that you have revised your views on the movement. I was doing it before I discovered the movement. I did not see it as a preserve of the bros you indicated. To me its best selling point is working because you want to rather than have to. I definitely want that for me.
Weird, everyone I know has gotten paid maternity leave in the US. My friend just came back from six weeks. I'm sure it's more else where but it's not that we don't get any.
@@LifeEllen that’s great! I’m saving a years worth of my mortgage so I can take that time off without worrying about finances. My husband will still be working full time and will only get a month off for paid paternity leave. We want to make sure we only have to worry about utilities and food during my time off. My company only offers one month of paid maternity leave. we might only have one kid because daycare is now over 1k a month in my area.
yess chelsea. I am also a leftist and we always must acknowledge how the system is deeply racist, classist, etc (rigged). However, there is always an individual component to personal finance. and if we have goals like FIRE, we have to have the individual tools to help get us there, alongside constantly advocating for systemic change.
YES. Imagining fighting for systemic change while depending on the same system for financial support. Best way to fight is have your own system of support.
i agree. i just wanna share my story of how as a couple we got to the position of my partner being the hustling tech guy with me being the stay at home frugal partner...summary: debilitating health issues, living in an expensive city (Sydney Australia), government couldn't help me w sick pay because occasionally when he does overtime the number on his pay-check hits jut the number that doesn't allow me to get that support, frequent medical specialists and tests cost me AUD$200 -300 out of pocket after medicare rebate.. We play the so called "individual frugal game" (w monthly charity donations) because its the only option we found to a path that has brought some relief from the struggle and will hopefully continue giving us more relief.... if he succeeds in the tech field he is in, we might be able to move to the countryside with his family in England, which will immensely benefit me and his father due to our health conditions (small towns makes us feel part of the community as they are more accessible) , we will finally have more leisure time as he spends hours of daily commuting in Sydney, we will have time to work on our relationship, afford some pockets of joy, we will have time and means to care for the elderly in our family... while having a level of financial security. So far our quality of life has improved even with all the frugality and he is not even close to 6 figures.
You are really on point. I earn 26k but my rent is 507 a month....someone earning 35k to 50k with 1k to 2k a month in rent plus kids..( i have none) is an impactful environment...
My main problem with the various financial freedom movements is that often it boils down to “become a landlord”, which I find really gross considering you’re basically hoarding very limited and vital resources so you can make more money.
yes!! i absolutely agree with this take. and (may be unpopular opinion) but i think chelsea's stance is ballsy one - one that goes against the grain of many FIRE-loving people who are gungho on only chasing efficiency over everything else. and i am happy it's out there i feel a little more at ease living in manhattan and knowing there are people like chelsea who are vocal about pushing for local laws and understanding that it sometimes starts small and locally
You are certainly correct in your assumption that a well-off DINK from NYC can't really relate to the average working American outside her Manhattan bubble. I was stupid for over 40 years, spent everything I made, yet after discovering fire, became a millionaire in as little as 9 years, just by not being stupid any longer.
I remember starting to get involved in the fire community and my wife thought it was disgusting. She had the same idea of those early notable few people and hated the idea. Now she's really onboard and much happier knowing it's not about killing ourselves, it's just planning for our retirement in a reasonable way. 100% agree that there is so many people out there that simply can't get ahead due to what card they've be dealt at birth, whether environmental or not. Very happy to live in Australia where although things aren't perfect, opportunities are more abundant than the US.
she's our moral goddess of power. only her hotness transcends her wisdom. she knows the answers, we must simply listen. she is not childless, for we are her children.
I think culturally we need a movement for people that is more realistic but fair. "NRWH" Never Retire Work Healthier. So many of us can't even imagine being able to retire, but we need a way to fight and bargain for a dignified working life and unstressed time off. (AND upend our healthcare system for the better of everyone) This is why I'm prob labor movement. Even when a person gets to so called "retirement age" many continue to work part time or change to slower forms of work that are accessible to the elderly.
Our goal with personal finance is to be financially independent at 45. Note, not to retire at 45, that sounds boring. But being at a financial point in which we have basic security met in passive income and savings so that we could work any part-time job in order to be part of our society, keep social contact and a fulfilling activity that provides with income for more luxurious things. This retiring at 30 mentality seems so weird to me. Even if you reach that and have enough money to pursue hobbies, most of you friends do not have that. No co-workers, no friends and having to keep yourself on a schedule for at least 40 years seems a bit... meh.
This is my goal too. I'd like to still have a little bit of income and some kind of routine in my life. But I'd like to be able to work only part time and be more choosy about what kind of job I'll do. My current job pays well but is very stressful. Once I've reaped some rewards from the high paycheck, I'll happily move on to something different.
Your biggest argument against this movement is that its hyper individualistic and that it reeks of "every man for himself". And your solution, as every other democratic leaning person, is to live in a utopia where everyone joins hands and the government takes the right steps to help the people. But what everyone in the FIRE movement has come to terms with, is if you sit around whining and waiting for your goverment to make the right choices you're going to find yourself 60 years old with no possible way to retire. There is a reason why they took a "hyper individualistic" approach to finances, clearly their community and their authorities are not helping.
I dated a guy who became a fire bro one year into our relationship. I found there was a lot of hypocrisy in how he viewed our finances. When I spent money on my appearance that was wasteful. But when he spent money on beer or alcohol that was apparently okay. I can comfortably say I will never date someone who does FIRE again. Having to convince your s.o to spend your combined money on dates or dining out isn't fun.
That's not a FIRE problem. That's a "valuing the things your SO values" problem. Likely would have been an issue no matter what. The household budget should accommodate each member's priorities- including the savings rate.
A hobby is something we do for fun when we're not working. A job is a specific task that someone does to earn money. I retired from my boring job after 24 years. Now, I am happy with a profitable hobby. Less income but happier. Life is a mist !.. short lived !!...
I just find the FIRE movement slightly depressing. If you are working every day in the pursuit of quitting, you're in the wrong profession. I got into FIRE for a while and then I just realised I think I just don't like where I'm at in life. I think I may be harbouring regret for choosing the career direction I chose, so maybe I'm projecting. It just seems like if you aren't happy, change your life and pursue happiness NOW rather than for when you retire. I like to think it's possible to change your life so you don't spend a huge amount of time focusing on retirement, that shouldn't be your focus. Save yes, but it's like you post-pone enjoyment until retirement, ie eating at nice restaurants, enjoying slightly expensive exercise classes... you may not even live as long as you imagine you will.
@@kevinharris9471 Fair enough, point taken. It's hard to take risks without a financial security net that's for sure. I'm in a position where I'm able to take career risks by retraining so, looking at it through a different lens I'm sure. I hear you re many people not loving their jobs, most people I know are o.k about their job but don't love it, and I include myself in that. Here's hoping we can all find career flexibility and satisfaction.
A big problem is that we've had economic productivity increases like crazy over the past few decades, especially in a lot of white collar office work. Yet we're stuck in this 40 hour 8-5 work day when a lot of work can be done in a matter of hours. It's just a massive waste of life to only get a handful of weeks of vacation per year and be expected to slave away 5/7 days week in and week out. That being said, I could choose to only work 500-1000 hours per year, but I'd rather just get the heavy lifting done with to buy my freedom and then scale it back to those types of hours. Might as well leverage compounding. I'm not a big fan of giving power to the state, but I'll have to admit that some things in Canada and the EU push more towards real work/life balance and that it would be good. I'd be a fan of pushing towards balance and reform in the working area.
For me, regardless of whether or not I can actually retire early, it feels like just good financial hygiene? Especially in an environment where the government isn't under any obligation to ensure my security.
This was a great video and I have learned a lot more about retirement by helping my parents navigate the processes of it. I liked the concept of FIRE, but there's a ton of nuance involved with going down that route. I prefer just FI which means that you don't have to rely only on your job for income.
I would read FIRE blogs to fantasize about the freedom it would offer when I was working in retail for minimum wage and taking University classes full-time. Since I graduated and got a much better, much higher-paying job, it doesn't hold the same draw as it used to.
I looked into FIRE a few years ago and at some point i did aspire to retire early. I saw the reality very fast after I crunched those numbers. Like i would need to live to work for over a decade in which i would need to only pay for necessities. Like no. I have no issue with saying that that lifestyle doesn't work with how am trying to live my life now or how i want to live in retirement and if i am lucky enough to be able to work until am 62, then so be it.
Not related to this video at all but I would really, really love to see a TFC episode with (ideally) Amanda Montell about the financial aspects of being in cults, cult-like communities, and sects.
i just wanna share my story of how as a couple we got to the position of my partner being the hustling tech guy with me being the stay at home frugal partner...summary: debilitating health issues, living in an expensive city (Sydney Australia), government couldn't help me w sick pay because occasionally when he does overtime the number on his pay-check hits jut the number that doesn't allow me to get that support, frequent medical specialists and tests cost me AUD$200 -300 out of pocket after medicare rebate.. We play the so called "individual frugal game" (w monthly charity donations) because its the only option we found to a path that has brought some relief from the struggle and will hopefully continue giving us more relief.... if he succeeds in the tech field he is in, we might be able to move to the countryside with his family in England, which will immensely benefit me and his father due to our health conditions (small towns makes us feel part of the community as they are more accessible) , we will finally have more leisure time as he spends hours of daily commuting in Sydney, we will have time to work on our relationship, afford some pockets of joy, we will have time and means to care for the elderly in our family... while having a level of financial security. So far our quality of life has improved even with all the frugality and he is not even close to 6 figures.
Hearing how tough it is for you right now! I hope it isn’t always this way. It might be worth having a look to see if you can move to the U.K. sooner, as it’s very hard to get IT staff post-Brexit and negotiating conditions are very good for the employee right now, post-lockdown it’s easy to ask for remote working and the salaries are higher than what they have been. It depends what your partner does (tech isn’t always IT). For context I’m an Aussie, I used to live in Sydney and Auckland but am now living in the U.K. with a husband in IT.
@@LizLow81 wow amazing! Thank you for sharing! He started as an electrician, been a security tech for years now and getting a degree in cyber security. We are planning on moving in just over 1 year when he is close to finishing his degree. Im so excited to move to England but at the same time Im aware I will miss Australia!
The housing market in the UK is on fire right now (not in a good way) and energy bills have quadrupled in a single year. Living here has become so increadibly unaffordable quicker than covid has spread. The interest rates for mortgages are crazy high, and there's no way you'll be accepted for a mortgage in the UK by moving from the otherside of the world as you'll have no credit history. You won't even be able to get a phone contract for years. You also have health issues, and you will not be allowed access to free healthcare if you're not a settled resident so you'll have to pay for it and won't get the rebate you get from the Australian government. Since Brexit, opportunities are fewer (companies don't want to invest in the UK when they can much more easily invest in another EU country), and food prices have gone through the roof The countryside is also really far away from anything interesting or fun so you'll be commuting a lot still. I don't mean to burst your bubble, but i hope you realise what you're getting yourself into.
I feel like FIRE really overlooks people who went out of their way, and likely accepted a lower salary, in order to get a job that they enjoy and that is meaningful to them and others. If when you think about what you would do if you didn't have to worry about money, the best thing is if it resembles your current job. Work can be really meaningful and give structure to your life, and for the people you affect with work too. I don't see the appeal of trying to retire at a young age. Now, getting financial independence-- to start your dream business? Or to take the kind of job you've always wanted but that doesn't pay much/anything? To be able to actually do a hobby you love (which costs money)? Or even to be able to make riskier but more interesting and impactful investments? So you can keep making money but can take it easy if old age hits you hard? Now those things I understand. Why would anyone want to retire halfway through life just to goof around and get drunk on the beach? The whole concept needs to be reframed. The idea that the meaning your work has for yourself and others is zero and doing nothing with yourself should be the end goal is indeed some of the most meaningless hyperindividualist drivel I can think of.
It’s easy and not particularly useful to criticize the most extreme version of FIRE. For most people FIRE is living below your means, examining your values, setting realistic goals, and doing the math to figure out if you can retire before 60. Probably most people can’t (or won’t) do this but it is an idea many can consider.
But the extreme version is much easier to critique.
Agreed. One of the nice things about FIRE is that it doesn’t actually ruin anything. You can always choose to keep working or go back to work after a short “retirement” if the lifestyle isn’t for you. It’s not exactly ruining your life to have substantial retirement savings by age 30/40/50.
This this this! Agree on almost all points. Living below your means and saving more than the suggested savings rate is the main goal of mine. Not necessarily retiring as early as humanly possible and sacrificing life in the meantime. My big thing is I set aside a savings rate and make sure to hit that rate. From there, I can spend money on things I enjoy. But I know I am hitting my rate higher than what they recommend to retire at 65, keeping me ahead of 99% of people my age.
I do think most people can do this. But you're right, they WON'T do this. My goal is to COAST retire sometime in my early 50s. Still work, but part time and at a job I like much more than a traditional job, and what makes enough money so I either don't have to withdraw from my savings at all, or withdraw so little that I still out pace inflation and grow my net worth regardless. Maybe withdraw 2% to make up the difference from working full time to part time, and see my money still grow.
@@LLivLLaffLLuv Also. No one should ever regret FIRE nor blame FIRE for the reason for their unhappiness. If FIRE causes you to be unhappy, it's just your mentality towards it and/or your inability to understand it doesn't make you do anything. It's still your choice. All FIRE does for me, is give me CHOICE! Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm a fan of any movement that disrupts the idea of working 40 hours or more a week until we're too old to enjoy it.
My husband and I were interested in the fire movement. We also don't have kids, but we paid off our house and now only one of us works: me. I also want to retire early, but since the pandemic hit and I work from home, time that was previously spent commuting is now spent making tie dye, thrifting and sewing.
I'm 40 years old and I thank my younger self profusely for saving, investing, and keeping low expenses.
Whether it's retiring early or maybe just working 4 days a week or not commuting, any time I can get back now for fun stuff is huge and I am thankful for it.
I think frugality is a virtue, not because it involves being cheap or stingy, but because it involves reflecting on what you value instead of consuming out of habit.
It also better for the environment in many aspects
It's a more conscious way of living. People are often surprised at how much further they can push themselves, or that they can skip a meal without dying, or eat a smaller portion, or just drink water instead of a sugary soda or a 1000-calorie coffee, or make their own bag lunches instead of dropping thousands of dollars per year of after-tax money on lunches out. We tend to be creatures of habit, but it is easy to never realize how far we have let that get, to the point that ordinary behavior looks crazy or ridiculous to us.
Well said ! 👏
@@dingfeldersmurfalot4560 It's funny how habits are perpetuated by feedback. You can be tempted into a bad habit, assuming it's key to making you happy, when the alternative is "quit whining." How else is snake oil sold?
It's entirely possible that your job becomes more bearable when you and the rest of the department eats lunch out, and can even become more productive when you all detect new opportunities you missed in the office. Just don't be pressured to match someone else's habit to buy the catch of the day .
@@MRCKify I used to get caught in those socialization traps, very easy in an office heavy with office politics. But it's much more difficult to keep up with the Joneses when you're not at the top of your financial circle already. The same x$ lunch that is trivial to your work buddy can be at least cumulatively catastrophic to you. I've found time and again that the office friends I was trying to cultivate were never really friends anyway for the most part by far, and I forgot them as easily as they forgot me. You can spend a lot of money creating false affinities. And when push comes to shove, those office friends may stick a knife in your back -- or refuse to help you when someone else does -- just as quickly as anyone else. Including all those not embroiled in your bull****. Simply getting involved in cliques in the first place almost inevitably corrodes many of the best things about anyone ... and the toll can accumulate quickly ...
I see the FIRE movement similarly as people who are really into crossfit. Its certainly not for everyone, but I don't see it as a bad thing It's an extreme lifestyle that works for some but not for the majority. It generally doesn't affect anyone but the person who is doing it (unless you are FIREing by scamming/screwing over other people somehow of course).
“people who are really into crossfit”. 🤣🤣🤣
But Crossfit is not CHEAP!
That is a really good analogy
This is the best analogy 😅😅😅😅
my best fran time is 4:13. i deadlifted 425 once. i fatfired at 49, live in the midwest and wink at the cute little 'ceo' :)
What i like about FIRE: the idea that you should not mindlessly spend your entire paycheck every month, and especially that you should not mindlessly upgrade to a more expensive lifestyle as your career picks up steam.
What i don't like about FIRE: the focus on passive income in ways that often take advantage of poor people (such as becoming a landlord), and just in general that the movement is mostly about people who _can_ save half their salary and still live comfortably enough
FACTS
Here in Australia becoming a landlord is way less lucrative than investing. The costs are astronomical and the tenants don’t understand how much we have to put in just to keep on top of it all, in the hope that property values will increase. We effectively subsidise accomodation for our tenants and would not say I am taking advantage of the poor!
What you like is just good budgeting skills.
Many poor tenants take advantage of good landlords.
@@jmecklenborg In my experience, tenants would rather see if I want to sneer at the landlord with them rather than report a maintenance issue. They live like their lives are on display, as if the landlord and the 3-body maintenance crew can magically see past their privacy and attend to them like a parent.
Retirement is wonderful if you have two essentials - much to live on and much to live for. Invest wisely and get good returns.
thank you, can you give a pointer the best investment now ? i am thinking of getting stocks or cryto
The key to making money in stocks is not to get scared out of them. An important key to investing is to remember that stocks are not lottery tickets. get a financial assistant
I currently work with TERESA JENSEN WHITE a financial expert i met in a seminar
I recently watched TERESA JENSEN WHITE on TV , such a great speaker . but have you made any profit whatsoever working with her ?
I have been able to make maximum profits off my trade with $40,000 and I have amassed about $190,000 in net profit In 4 weeks
I'm a single, 43-year-old father who resides in Hamburg. If everything continues to go well for me, I intend to retire at age 50. I couldn't be happier right now than I am that I just bought my first house last month. I'm so happy that I made wise choices that altered my life forever.
Salutations, dude. At your age, you're doing extremely well. I'm 54 years old, and right now my finances are a mess. Any helpful advice would be greatly appreciated in helping to mold my life. I want to buy a home of my own.
It seems like I used the FIRE movement to manage my finances. Investigate it further by doing some research. With the help of a financial professional, they were then successful when investing in stocks, cryptocurrencies, and real estate.
Mind if I ask you to recommend this particular coach you using their service?
'Carol Vivian Constable, a highly respected figure in her field. I suggest delving deeper into her credentials, as she possesses extensive experience and serves as a valuable resource for individuals seeking guidance in navigating the financial market.
She appears to be well-educated and well-read. I ran an online search on her name and came across her website; thank you for sharing.
I came across your channel through this video-case studies are incredibly valuable, and I'm eager to see more in the future! Building wealth involves establishing routines, like consistently setting aside funds at regular intervals for smart investments.
You're correct. I think the smartest way to go is to spread out your investments. By putting your money into different asset classes like bonds, real estate, and stocks from other countries, you can lower the risk if one part of the market goes bad.
Talking about a financial market specialist, do you consider anyone worthy of recommendations? I have about 100k to test the waters now that large cap stocks are at a discount... Thanks
My CFA NICOLE ANASTASIA PLUMLEE a renowned figure in her line of work. I recommend researching her credentials further... She has many years of experience and is a valuable resource for anyone looking to navigate the financial market..
My philosophy is financial freedom. I'm not focused on retirement. I do want to live below my means, build investments and passive invome and have the freedom to choose what I do.
This my husband’s and my philosophy. We definitely save for retirement and for emergencies. We live below our means so we can live comfortably now and later.
That's okay as long as you're not spending more than you earn.
If you have to be a landlord to do it it's not worth it. We are in a housing crisis and people turning a necessity to live into a retirement plan so they can retire at 40 is not fucking helping
Amen to this! Homes and security are more important than someone's investment profit.
Problem is real estate is how many end up with wealth. Besides how many people do you know who do not have a huge percentage of their net worth in housing?
@@donaldlyons17 also if being a overcomsuming leech is how so many people build wealth that's just more evidence the system is broken period.
I would also like to add the AirBNB model taking housing out of the market completely which feels extra scuzzy to me.
It's not all are bad though my landlord is young and he has apartments and trailers for rent well below the market value. He takes hud but it's affordable even for where i live if i didn't have hud it would only be $375 a month and it's not a dump i even have a dishwasher. I would have to find a place for twice that to get a dishwasher and hud only covers up to 550 for a one bedroom which is what most one bedrooms are here. My sister lives next door in a 2 bed room and hers is only $400 or 425 a month i forget which. The problem is people like Dave Ramsey who raises the rent whenever he can just because he can. He wants to retire early but he's not hurting people to do it. He works a lot of hours in a dangerous job which is most high paying jobs around here. I wouldn't want to be a prison guard the rest of my life either.
I think having an emphasis on "how would I rather spend my time if I had complete control over it" would be a better goal than the goal of living as frugally as possible and not contributing to society. I think most people would find that it isn't working that they hate, it's doing a job they don't care about!
I met a woman at the condo mail boxes the first day of her retirement. She told me she was now going to start doing the things that she put off doing because of working. She dropped dead of a heart attack 7 days later at the very same mail boxes. How sad.
that fear is real.
How old do you think she was if you don't mind me asking?
@oaktree_ I recommend the deepest well by dr Nadine Burke Harris, same concept but focused on traumatic childhood experiences that cause chronic stress. Very sad but illuminating!
@@doggydude4123 She didn't tell me.
@@thekatvita I don't know the mechanics of it. I suppose my point was don't keep working so hard you don't find time to do other things.
As a Washington DC suburban mom, the busyness is bred into kids. It’s a competition for these target moms to get their kids into all things every minute of the day. Kids don’t know the value of calm, rest, peace, and the ability to just be in a simple way.
That’s why we love the PNW area. Tech workers actually stop working in the evenings. Balanced life is valued. East coast in general has a hustle culture probably because of the finance sector.
While FIRE takes privilege, I really do like the underlying ideals of freedom and time being the most valuable assets. Before I learned about FIRE, I just assumed I would work until I was 65 and that this should be normal.
Hey Chelsea! Fun true story: A couple years ago, I started watching your financial independence videos and you made a mention of a steps counting app that you used for a while to get back into shape. It gave me the idea to continue listening to your youtube videos and later to your financial confession podcasts WHILE walking. I’ve been doing that ever since and have gotten back into shape. The app tells me I have walked the equivalent of 13 ironman triathlons since I started. Lost 50 pounds, got rid of high blood pressure, sleep apnea and back pains. I look like a million bucks now , so if only for that, I’d be your type. Thanks!
Nice.
What app?
@@KikiIfill Pedometer++
@@gilbertallard306 This helps you measure how much of a pedo you are?
Though I've never been a huge FIRE guy I felt super called out by your description of the early FIRE enthusiast. It's always struck me as odd that people who like me have hit the literal jackpot when it comes to the income to cost of living ratio, so many decide to deprive themselves of many of the joys of life. What's the point of racing towards a retirement when the person who will be retiring has defined themselves by not doing anything for fun except bragging that their only hobby is trading penny stocks? Life costs money, I've been lucky enough to get into things like woodworking at a younger age than many people because I have the disposable income to spend. The idea of not spending it for 30 years so I can retire early sounds like a great way to not get to do what I enjoy for 30 years, and then dying of boredom.
This is probably my main issue with it too. I always enjoyed making things and was good at it, woodworking among others. Hobbies that are frequently not cheap or with low return. As an engineering student, I think retirement will simply be an excuse to do something different, if I choose to wait that long anyway.
i just wanna share my story of how as a couple we got to the position of my partner being the hustling tech guy with me being the stay at home frugal partner...summary: debilitating health issues, living in an expensive city (Sydney Australia), government couldn't help me w sick pay because occasionally when he does overtime the number on his pay-check hits jut the number that doesn't allow me to get that support, frequent medical specialists and tests cost me AUD$200 -300 out of pocket after medicare rebate..
We play the so called "individual frugal game" (w monthly charity donations) because its the only option we found to a path that has brought some relief from the struggle and will hopefully continue giving us more relief.... if he succeeds in the tech field he is in, we might be able to move to the countryside with his family in England, which will immensely benefit me and his father due to our health conditions (small towns makes us feel part of the community as they are more accessible) , we will finally have more leisure time as he spends hours of daily commuting in Sydney, we will have time to work on our relationship, afford some pockets of joy, we will have time and means to care for the elderly in our family... while having a level of financial security. So far our quality of life has improved even with all the frugality and he is not even close to 6 figures.
Yeah, i think there's to much focus on the retire-early idea in this movement.
Like, if you already have a hobby you do every week, and you are willing to give up other luxuries so you can do your hobby all week long than that makes sense to me.
But it doesn't make sense to work yourself crazy with tons of sidehustles in order to retire early and than discover you are boredAF
@@sd-ch2cq Yes, I have rich family member doing that right now and they are miserable. For me a mild version of it can bring financial security in certain situations like mine
people like you sound like your coping with the fact you cannot do it. I find it the case when people online speak about home ownership... FIRE wood make your woodworking example even better than it currently is. Who says you cannot spend money either. If you do not understand the concept to begin with you should not be on here critiquing it
It’s telling how the people who are early-FIRE leaning are focused on feelings, like being basic, while others are focused on the material realities of their current situation that hinders early FIRE goals. There’s a reason why people can do well in a high earning industry/ job and a low-expenses lifestyle, while investing the difference - it’s math. High earnings, especially in LCOL is the jackpot.
Interesting to see this video, I started following Mr. Money Moustache in ~2015/2016, and as a result was really interested in FIRE for a few years. I do think Pete at least still has some pretty good investing advice, as well as a good anti-consumerism and low-car mindset, but beyond that, I've come to realize that FIRE is really unattainable for a lot of people because of the socioeconomic factors that you mention. I'd still listen to him over Dave Ramsey any day.
i just wanna share my story of how as a couple we got to the position of my partner being the hustling tech guy with me being the stay at home frugal partner...summary: debilitating health issues, living in an expensive city (Sydney Australia), government couldn't help me w sick pay because occasionally when he does overtime the number on his pay-check hits jut the number that doesn't allow me to get that support, frequent medical specialists and tests cost me AUD$200 -300 out of pocket after medicare rebate..
We play the so called "individual frugal game" (w monthly charity donations) because its the only option we found to a path that has brought some relief from the struggle and will hopefully continue giving us more relief.... if he succeeds in the tech field he is in, we might be able to move to the countryside with his family in England, which will immensely benefit me and his father due to our health conditions (small towns makes us feel part of the community as they are more accessible) , we will finally have more leisure time as he spends hours of daily commuting in Sydney, we will have time to work on our relationship, afford some pockets of joy, we will have time and means to care for the elderly in our family... while having a level of financial security. So far our quality of life has improved even with all the frugality and he is not even close to 6 figures.
In my opinion the healthcare costs, whether insurance or having to pay out of pocket, or just the stress of not knowing if you will be wiped out financially if you have a health crisis of any kind, is the largest detriment to a life where you could live with any financial security. And the U.S. has made it clear they will never fix this problem.
EXACTLY!!!!! Well said.
Yup. I had everything wiped out by age 22 by medical debt. It taught me early that financial security in the USA is virtually impossible for someone who is chronically ill.
as someone who is not from the USA, no matter how many times i hear someone make this point you are making, it still completely shocks me that you have to live life under that horrible cloud.
other countries have it figured out. there‘s no reason to live in the states
Agreed, health insurance is the #1 reason why retiring early is just a straight up gamble, unless you somehow have "I just won the lottery" kinds of money.
I’m a software engineer and moved to a high cost of living area to avoid commuting costs, then moved back to a low cost of living area during covid to WFH and achieve FIRE. Now my job wants people to go back in to the office. Needless to say I’m fighting it, and if I lose, I’m switching jobs.
I was so relieved when my job announced recently that we wouldn’t be forced to go back to the office. I hope you’re able to have the WFH career that’s best for you:)
It’s a very hot market right now. I say that as someone trying to hire software engineers. Start applying for work in other places right away. You will probably end up finding a full remote job, probably with a raise as well.
The r/financialindependence subreddit is super chill. I got my first job out of grad school in September and somehow stumbled upon that sub. They've taught be a ton and have always been super helpful with my questions. It is a little weird in that the majority of them are working in tech or engineering and making $100k+ however, even as a less than $60k government employee it's been very nice getting the FIRE perspective. I'm naturally quite frugal so it may work or it may not, but for now I'm putting away 40+% of my gross away so that I have the option if I want to take it.
If you have real concerns, like how to pay for life insurance if you retire early, they hand wave it away like you're being silly. They also act like it's so easy to save a million dollars. I think they are speaking to a high earning subset of people.
@@mostHumblePersonAlive They really don't, at least not in that sub. Other subs may be less moderated. But in my experience they're pretty self-aware that they're in very privileged positions.
That government pension and your discipline will probably get you to FIRE faster than those Engineers. You've got a good plan.
@@4040smokey the E in fire stands for early. Govt pension doesn't kick in until 57, doesn't help retire at 30
Wow! That’s great! I’m putting away about 30-40% of my income (401k is gross, rest is net) right now. Basically, I’m preparing to own my own house and all that jazz.
Putting away 40% of gross is like 75% of net! Congrats! (I have no deductions so high taxes.)
I practice FIRE and I definitely have criticisms of it. Most of people in the U.S. can't achieve it because we do not have universal healthcare. If you do retire early, you are omitting the highest grossing salary years which often is at the end of your career. Most people who reach FIRE, don't retire; they often work on the side, start their own businesses, or jobs that they like. Also a lot of FIRE people geo-arbitrage to lower cost of living areas (even countries). They are essentially gentrifying entire cities and dramatically increasing the cost of living for the locals.
I really appreciate the nuance and willingness to course correct on this channel. It’s unusually healthy and all too needed in this age of us-them.
What FIRE touches on is that traditional financial advice feels outdated. I was at a financial seminar put on by my company for people in their mid thirties to forties. The advice was that this was the time we needed to begin cutting our expenses.
But the reality was, for most of us, this was when we were just finally able to afford a house and start thinking about kids.
Most of us left discouraged that we would never be able to retire and we have traditional white collar jobs. FIRE feels more in touch with modern sentiments.
But wouldn’t FIRE be telling you to do the same? I’m confused how the advice is different. FIRE seems to be encouraging lean living for the long run to be able to not be work-dependent to support a bloated standard of living.
they think it's the 50s or 90s
I just wanna play League of Legends, hang out, read or learn in my free time. Not gonna make myself unhappy trying to achieve "financial independence". I know what it is like to be unhappy. I consider being happy such a privilege and a gift that I will spend most of my life wanting to be happy and being happy. Says someone who has struggled with depression most of their lives.
Lol you are happy playing league of legends 😂 bruh
@@lucia7234 😂 for real. Not even kidding. Even when people flame I find it funny. Even when I'm having a bad game I still enjoyed playing. Some days I'm tired of League and only want to read, go see friends, just hang with family or code.
League if funny man. It always when me laugh especially when people are flaming or someone is just bad. It doesn't matter if the person is on my team or theirs. What's funny is funny 🤣
Edit: I guess when you have had a life like mine you can't be too upset playing a game
Studying for my CPA (Canada) and the tax system is fundamentally flawed and heavily favored towards home-owning (🏠1+) couples, with one higher earner than the other, who may or may not have kids. It taxes income, not assets -> so once you put money into an asset, the value isn't recycled back into the economy. Hence why boomers are holdjng onto 4+ bedroom homes for 2M dollars as retirement plans and rich people own things like art (which has special tax rules). Single, young people with middle income jobs who rent, are smoked by the tax system, paying extremely high taxes relative to their PPP. Taxes on rich doesnt work because their wealth isnt their income, its their net assets.
Im so fcking tired of hearing societal gaslighting on this topic when the issue is the disproportionate tax benefits we have for certain segments of the population qhen they are already advantaged in so many ways through our tax systems. Drives me nuts and things like the FIRE movement (by the sounds of it) perpetuates this bs further.
Also the capitalist "just reduce taxes" and they socialist "just offer more subsidies", both dont work because they tax rate isnt the issue, it's who keeps getting tax benefits (couples, with one higher earner, buying/owning a home). Changing who gets the tax benefits vs gets more taxes compared to their purchasing power is how to shift the framework, not more or less tax or doing the same thing over and over again.
I know that there is a large chance that I will feel differently about this by the time I am 50-but-after being unemployed due to Covid and feeling absolutely miserable, I think I am the type of person that would enjoy working at least part-time until I am physically unable. Not because I just love toiling my life away, but because it gives me a loose structure to build around and some normalcy, if that makes sense.
How early is "retire early"? I agree that retiring at age 29-35 is a bit extreme, but doing it at 50-55, which is still quite early, is possible for a lot more people. Actually, I think if you retire before your 64th year and 364th day, you are retiring early!
Current SSI actually later if born past a certain year too
The problem (at least in the US) is funding health expenses in that 55-65 age range. It's better since the ACA, but still extremely expensive - largely because the likelihood that you'll actually have significant health expenses is quite high.
I heard before 55 is early. IMO, before 45 is early.
You're right, and if you want to retire before SSI and Medicare kick in (or don't want to live a meager retirement) it just makes sense to take a clue from the FIRE movement and see how it can be done.
I want to retire by 55 and only because I had a child late in life and I want to work until he turns 16 and his college account and some savings for him are fully vested as well as savings for me. I realize though that I probably will not be able to live in the US because the cost of healthcare until I can get medicare is astronomical.
I've posted about retiring before (happened last week, and being just about 55, it's kind of early), and I'll just re-enforce Chelsea's point about setting a plan early and just doing your best about that. BUT, at the same time as my happy day, quite a few other fellow employees found out on Wed that they were retiring the same time as me. While I recognize that the DIY aspect is, well... the fact that many didn't get to retire on their terms reminds me that planning as early as you can is super important.
But for most people, we work so that we can live. So please keep some balance.
At first I was like "Imagine shilling for crypto in The Financial Diet comment section."
Now I'm convinced it's a bunch of bots because this many people cannot be this ignorant to the actual content of the video or just have that much audacity.
The bots have Besen super active lately in the comment section of finance videos, it’s super annoying hahH
@@NataliaNNS I hadn't noticed them before so it took me aback for a minute before I realized they weren't actual TFD viewers.
I can't think of less fertile ground for spreading the scamy MLM that is crypto/NFTs than this channel.
This comment section sponsored by Mr Bruce Kovner. 😅
@@AuraReadsBooks Pretty sure they mass report your comments too if you call them out. They've done that to me before.
such a timely video for me! finally getting back into FIRE. I absolutely disagree with saving every dollar and avoiding fun at all costs but I loooove an anti-consumerist perspective when it comes to spending. in short, it feels like planning your fun so its not impulsive and detrimental to your financial and physical/mental health goals!
If nothing else, it’s given me “permission” to live according to MY values, rather than others’. I live abroad and like eating local foods, getting to know citizens of the country and making my own cocktails, rather than going out and spending literally 20x as much, which is what a lot of expats do.
FIRE has really taught me a lot. I started originally wanting to retire ASAP. Then I reevulated my career plan and... trying to be happy while working. Because I saved so much from 20-30 I am able to spend 30-65 making only as much money as I need to live my day to day life. No more saving for retirement needed. I plan to work a hard, stressful job part time and gain fufillment from it by helping my community. Side note, getting diagonsed and medicated for ADHD made working seem actually fufilling instead of never ending dread. :)
Thats what I did! And now ill be able to retire at 55. 😊
Can I just say that I appreciate tired Chelsea's lack of giving a damn? 😂 This has actually been one of my favorite videos in recent memory
The real problem is that passive income and getting it to live is basically that you want to move from the exploited to the exploiter. I saved so hard in my teens and early 20s. Worked so hard. I honestly feel like I wasted my youth. I'll never get that time back and that has impacts on my life. I never had a girlfriend and never will. I'm so socially awkward. My body is broken. Enjoy your life, live below your means. Keep enough saved to weather storms.
Sounds like you regret it?
It’s never too late to start dating.
Whenever I hear someone speak like this I worry because well... I knew a guy. But the fact that you speak about your feelings so openly is a positive sign. It's harder meeting new people as you grow older but I reckon you'll find someone.
All the best
Pretty much the same way. Just turned 39 and realizing I've spent 25 years spinning my wheels and not a whole lot to show for it except a long resume that most people have no interest in looking at because they want someone who is 29.
@@FletcherFinance That's rough.
Retiring at age 29-35 is like scoring 20 points in the first quarter of a basketball game. That's not the finish line, and you can still lose the game. The finish line is the age when you can no longer physically work. That's when you HAVE to have a retireable amount of money -- just like in basketball where you have to have a winning score at exactly 0:00, not 5 seconds or 5 minutes earlier. In other words, whether you're into FIRE or not, you still have the same goal: achieve retirement when you are too old to work.
Thanks for this! I respect the FIRE community and love a lot of bloggers from there... But I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a bit resentful because most of them are super young, had NO student loans, and landed 6 figure jobs very quickly.
I use to listen to a bunch of other personal finance UA-camrs until I found you, a fellow dem socialist! I SO value your perspective on personal finance and how it intersects with our rigged system.
I can’t enjoy my life if I have to work a job I hate, this is what inspired me to persue FIRE
Why does everyone assume you will hate all jobs? Leave and get one you love. I'm 60 and still don't want to retire.
@@jtidema if jobs were fun, they would call them... FUN
I appreciate this perspective of FIRE so much. A few years back during a stressful and exhausting time, I submitted a case a to MMM himself. The advice…or public shaming (as I recall it) basically told me to quit my job, sell my van and dedicate my life to maximizing efficiency in my home so my husband could work and we could save on child care (despite the fact that my income is 25 K higher) Needless to say, I didn’t do any of that. What I really needed in that time of my life was an acknowledgment that working full time with two little kids was hard. The most valuable lesson that I learned from the experience was never ask anyone on the internet for advice 😂
I think in general the ideas underlying the FIRE movement are great, it's not perfect and some people take it too far, but if everyone applied these concepts to their lives it would be amazing. I do it for the environmental impact of not buying stuff, not so much for the saving money part honestly.
I appreciate this take! You nicely summarize a lot of what I’ve thought and felt about the gamification of money. I think a holistic view is much more realistic, accessible and necessary.
Love this! I really got into FIRE a few years ago as a means for long-term financial stability and more control over my time. It didn't work for me to be super frugal and constantly optimize our lowish income in a HCOL area, and it's been a hard mentality to break. I saw stepping back from pursuing FIRE as a personal failure instead of (like you said) the current system being patently unfair and inaccessible to most of us. I'm trying to reframe my mentality and seeing TFD videos like this really help. Individual choices are fine on a small scale, but I really appreciate your focus on how we can make work/life balance better for everyone. We can ALL have a decent life and not need to kill ourselves doing it! Rock on Chelsea!!
I don't think that's correct at all. Any betterment requires sacrifices. An extraordinarily lofty goal like early retirement is going to of course require extraordinary effort. I don't think Chelsea shies away from admitting that here, nor could she, really. In short, No, you CANNOT have it all.
I love when Chelsea comes for the system and points out that individuals are typically not to blame for not being rich!!
I like the general mindset of "cull the things you really don't need, and don't lifestyle creep," and a some of their budgeting advice can be genuinely good, but many/most of the FIRE pros I've read don't talk about if/when to pull back from a low-spend lifestyle (generating shame for *gasp* enjoying things that aren't on the discount rack), and there's a lot of push to make "Passive" income through blogs, classes, content production, and real estate, all of which I see as other jobs, and wouldn't work if everyone did. It feels disingenuous that they've side stepped into a different profession (that they greatly enjoy, which is fine), and then falsely claim they've taken up the "Retire Early" side of the moniker.
I hate the term passive income. Besides market investments, you're not making passive income. You put in some kind of direct work at some point in time, and people toss around that word for things like blogging. You may not work a lot, but you still make those blogs. If you mean it's passive because you've done something like buy real estate and then go completely hands off, or start a channel/Amazon flipping/printables or classes/blah blah and then hire someone else to actually do the work afterwards... well then you're just a regular hands off business owner lol You just sit at home in your PJs or go to the beach rather than throwing on a suit and heading to an office or flying around the world to chat with people.
Great video!! Now I have more knowledge about finance. I spent 20 years in the military and unfortunately did not save in a TSP. I am fortunate enough to be retired at age 42 with a profit from my investments and pension. I wouldn't have been able to live my current lifestyle without couple of investment. After taxes I am left with about 25,000 bucks a month, I am debt free and just now starting to invest in real estate. I don't plan on working for someone else ever again. I just live a modest life and now invest heavily in the market with the help of an IA. I do get a 2-3% raise every year for inflation and this income is for the rest of my life. I am blessed and now I live a great stress free life while investing while I am retired.
Congratulations on your early retirement. Right now, I could really use some investment advice or tips on investing. Last year I hesitated until the year ended without making any move. This year I decided to try something because I'm very open to ideas on how I can invest. When I see your comment I believe that you have an experience in it that could be of great help to me. Hope you don't mind sharing?
@@jamesjack2074 It's not a problem at all! I would advise you to determine your investment horizon, but I recommend a long-term plan if you are looking to make a lot of profit on your investment. I created a long term investment plan with Olivia Diane Margaret who helped me invest and manage my investment which helped me a lot.
@@peterjames7001 I appreciate your advice. It's hard to find someone that's reliable. When I see what you've achieved by investing, I could really use your investment advisor., if you don't mind sharing her information.
@@jamesjack2074 Okay, I work with *OLIVIA DIANE MARGARET.* You can browse about her for more info. She is U.S based.
Having a good financial planner is like having a mentor . I was losing my money trying to invest on my own but it was different from Olivia Diane Margaret . She has played a great role in improving my finances. Long before now, I relied solely on my work and salary. Right now, I have a way of making much money and without stress so I quit working for others . Honestly , investing isn’t a choice anymore but a must for anyone who wish to gain access to a good and an independent life.
No shade but I have very similar feelings about influencers like Aja Dang who say claimed that a lot of people can pay off six-figure debt in less than 2 years because she did...by launching a six-figure media business. For me, some lessons from the FIRE movement seemed _relatively_ more in my control, as in, statistically, I was more likely to get a better job with re-training than I was having a massively successful online business.
Edit: I'm also not crazy about becoming a landlord to do it, like Budget Girl. Landlords disenfranchise a lot of people! Not only their tenants, but people who want to buy their primary residence.
I still recognize a lot of economic setbacks are systemic. In fact, I wouldn't need to save so much with Medicare4All, UBI, and other programs, so I wouldn't care if I had less returns long-term. The money is just for the goods and services, not the goal! I'm just terrified of living in a roach motel when I'm an old lady...
To be fair, budget girl has her rentals in a college town, so it's a lot of folks who wouldn't buy there.
Also, if Aja Dang’s conventionally attractive appearance played a role in her success. That factor can’t always be replicated.
@@popkorng That's not necessarily true, it's more like they can't buy there because of all the landlords driving up the prices. College towns are decent cosmopolitan spaces for young professionals who don't want to (or can't afford to) live in HCOL areas like NYC or LA. I would live in my nearest college town in a heartbeat as a 30-something if I could afford to buy there.
I don't think I've ever heard Aja claim that anyone could do it in 2 years. Her message has always been it will be different for you and you need to adapf it to your life.
I watched her videos from her very first debt video. She only started her business after she paid of her debt. She modeled, youtube, and social influencer work to earn a lucrative living, but wasn't making the income you're claiming.
@@cutiepiemania45 Modeling, being a youtuber, and being a social influencer is all apart of making a media business. I thought it went without saying that it's _all_ media. Of course she had the income I'm claiming if she paid off 200k in a couple years...that's just math. What is meant to be "adaptable" exactly? It's obvious that it takes a large income to pay down six-figure debt fast, so it can't be that. To be a successful, high-earning media figure in less than 5 years? Sure, let's count on a highly improbable career trajectory to pay our crazy high debt 🙃
I’ve always remembered this one FIRE blog post called “pizza delivery is for millionaires” and it talked literally about how, unless you’re a multi millionaire, you’d be crazy to order pizza delivery. Instead you should make and freeze your own pizzas at home. Ok my husband and I enjoy making pizza at home as a hobby, but come on. Living a life where you’re afraid that a $30 pizza delivery is going to wreck your retirement doesn’t sound like much of a life. And just like Chelsea said, it ignores so many macro factors that have a waaaay bigger impact on your finances then whether you order pizza or not 🙄
I don't think 1 pizza wil kill your plans. But if you order pizza lets say ever week it could stack up. But stacking up pizzas and enjoying a big ol pizza stack with a tub of b&j icecream is my kind of caution in the wind move
Yes it feels like advising you to eat baked beans on toast for 25 years to save, so you can be financially independent and eat baked beans on toast for the next 40! Not that i have anything against bakes beans and toast! ;)
@@Panurus_biarmicus Ordering pizza every week would still not matter in the grand scheme of things if, lets say, a medical debt were to ruin you
@@kevinharris9471 this one specific person runs the Mr Money Mustache blog, which is one of the most popular FIRE blogs. So yes, that person's opinion matters when he is one of the actual leaders of the movement. And im pointing to one specific example to show a large part of the FIRE movement that doesnt make sense.
This is my biggest issue with the financial independence movement, or *any* discussion of frugality. In the wealthiest nations on Earth, while less than 100 people own half the world's capital, people should not be judged, guilted and blamed for ordering pizza or (as the stereotype goes) getting coffee every day.
It's a lot easier to say, Hey, take it easy on the workload and frugality! when you're already secure. Few people are very secure, and young people least of all. Arthur Miller said "There are no second acts in American lives." Things are changing a bit now as jobs and their tenure are becoming more fluid -- tech jobs at least -- but it's still true for most traditional jobs. You have to hustle damn hard and probably have a good bit of luck to come out of your youthful years feeling secure. Nobody's going to give it to anyone but the lucky, so not working more and harder than you might consider sensible, fair, or humane is not an option, anymore than not eating all those rice and beans, ramen noodles, and spaghetti meals are in college. (Took me almost ten years to be able to eat spaghetti again.)
When you say FIRE movement, I can’t help but mistaking it as FYRE Festival. 😁
Girl same 🤣
1. Clearly identify your values. 2. Align your spending accordingly and be intentional. 3. Work hard and live below your means. 4. Invest the difference in all market index fund and stay the course. This is a recording.
I was curious about Chelsea's thoughts about FIRE, and she didn't disappoint! It's true, the ability to even strive for FIRE is a massive privilege in the first place. It's also predicated on and supporting of an unsustainably runaway stock market. No one can FIRE off green stocks alone (yet); most prefer index funds that tend to support (currently) overvalued tech stocks, which encourages this capitalist spiral. Thanks for the video--you've earned an RSVP for the Summit from me.
Regular retirement (which lasts 20-30 years) depends on stocks continuing to grow too though.
Can also own an accessory apartment. Investments vary
@@mariaansley1519 Why is that a better/more ethical investment?
@@MusiKo14 who said anything about ethical or unethical? An accessory apartment increases housing stock in a home you live in. This increases supply and gives people a place to live.
@@MusiKo14 as well, many advocacy groups support such housing to be made for the elderly and workforce housing. That would count as ethical, no?
the main thing is how they claim to retire early when they're making money through blogs and what not
And the truth is they are not retired, they are just working part time on their social media side hustle.
@@mariac.5021 The point of FIRE isn't to never work another day in your life, it's to not HAVE TO work anymore. Making work optional, not never working again. There's a difference.
Some ppl are born worker bees. They work, either working or working to save money. They get depressed when there is no “work” in life but sipping cocktail on the deck.
Some ppl work in order to enjoy sipping cocktail on deck during non working hours. They may not retire early but they would certainly have memory of good times.
I didn’t wait until retirement to enjoy life; done a whole lot of activities and fun things while working. I have 2 more months to retirement. At 57 I am planning to actively accumulate more fun memories until my body isn’t able to carry me.
Never got too deep into FIRE (my introduction to nonstandard personal finance was "The Four-Hour Work-Week" (which, by the way, does not work, but contains a few good ideas along with plenty of bad)) but hey what's exactly wrong with being a suburban software architect who spends like one or two social classes lower on the totem pole? Once you're earning, say, 150% of the median (after debt service), then more money and stuff physically can't make you that much happier. Time spent with friends and doing what you enjoy seems like a good goal. Personally what bugs me about FIRE more generally is the effects of rent-seeking behavior. If everyone did FIRE, then everyone would have to do FIRE just to get by. So, it might be interesting to take a deeper dive into how we can promote the public well-being from a variety of current status positions.
I agree, that’s what mister money mustache did
I’d love to FIRE. I will be able to retire at 45…only issue is, health problems in my family make me fear for my 40s. I may get an easy but low-paying government job just for the healthcare. Or BaristaFIRE. Whatever I need to do to have health insurance.
Ideally, I’d work for a state university and get free college classes. For fun. Wouldn’t that be awesome?!
Also, note my LeanFIRE goal is essentially 133% poverty level. So not luxurious. But I’d rather be frugal and not work than be stressed out like I am now.
1. This is such a valuable take on what financial independence really means for the individual. 2. Where are your glasses from!?
Warby Parker
Your description of the FIRE movement seems pretty disconnected from what I've seen from the FIRE movement. I have not seen anyone in the FIRE movement shame people for their choices. Most people talking about FIRE want to move beyond their 9-5 job but also want to share the tools that they used or are using to get there so that others can get there too. I've never seen anyone shame or put down someone for choosing a less lucrative career that makes the path to FIRE slower.
I agree. I think some people read how other people achieve FIRE, compare to what they do personally and then interpret that as throwing shade. It's not. People are in different situations and make different choices and that's fine. If you barely make enough to live on, you're just not going to be able to retire early. If you make only a little more than you need, you might be able to retire a little early if you make that choice. If you make a very high income - you can either spend it all, or you can choose to buy yourself options by investing the overage. None of these things are an indictment of anyone. People just don't always have choices, and people who have choices can make different ones.
The last FIRE thread I saw on Reddit was people admitting how they've become more judgmental of how others spent their money.
Umm have you ever seen Graham Stephan's videos? Dude has an entire series primarily devoted to shaming other peoples' financial decisions called "Millionaire Reacts" 🙄
@@meridoughten9425 ok but Graham is a millionaire real estate investor/financial blogger. I don't think anyone says he speaks for people involved in FIRE.
@@travis1240 Here are links to some of his FIRE-related videos. They are entitled "How to retire by 30 years old," How to retire in 10 years," and "How to live frugally and achieve financial independence."
ua-cam.com/video/5S2cRNveZgg/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/-glfrfDLLTs/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/NuYPzliwY78/v-deo.html
fun fact, if I saved every penny I made starting this year (which...is not possibly given that I need to do things like eat and go to the dentist), I could retire super early at the age of...65. And in that case, hyper restriction seems so counter intuitive.
make more money
@@stxnw now, why didn't we all think of that? 🤦
You're living below the poverty line, it sounds like. Or you spend way too much. It's one or the other. Either way, something needs to change.
@@HighMaintenanceMinimalist i wonder too. some people are content with their $50k annual jobs
The fiery people that I know don't actually retire. They just get the piece of mind that if something goes wrong, they can keep their lifestyle for a long time before they get into trouble. At a certain point they get less frugal, but they still don't accumulate useless stuff that fills up their apartment.
The big motivator for FIRE for me is that I want enough financial security to have options if things got ugly at work.
That's almost my exact mindset! except the option I want is to make things ugly at work (just jokes, ofc)
YES and you never know when you might get the axe at work and be unable (for whatever reason) to find similarly gainful employment. It just makes sense to build your nest egg if you can.
@Funky lundi True, but you can apply many of the principles that are at the centre of the FIRE movement, without Retiring Early being your goal. Financial Independence is always something to pursue, once you can still have a fulfilling life, with enough moments of happiness during the process of the pursuit.
A good emergency fund should be enough for that. $15-45k vs $1-2.5 mil
@Funky lundi I don't see the difference. The RE part of FIRE isn't an obligation.
Thank you for reorienting the conversation to the fact that we can have more sustainable work/life balance on the daily if we only put the policies in place (like other countries have done) to make that possible. The highly individualist approach to finances is exhausting.
I don't want any government telling me how I will earn my money OR how I should spend it.
I live well below my means and don't want someone else to make choices for me.
I am an individual, and no, it is not exhausting to take responsibility for my own actions.
Ole 👏 👏👏
Brilliant and thorough analysis.
As a European, I shiver at the inequality of the USA. The individualistic obsession prevents the American society from improving the quality of life of all its citizens.
The USA is not a first world country; rather a country where some areas have a first world quality of life whereas others have levels of poverty comparable to developing countries.
We don't care.
@@NN-ix3ku about others?
Do you know why I sort of embraced FIRE? Worked massive amount of overtime and spent a lot of time away from my kids just to get a 2% increase in pay. I then find out companies that pay dividends hand out 5-10% increases on the regular. Every purchase I make I try to off set it with a dividend stock of equivalent value. Yes my wife took care of the kids while I worked but I also saved 2/3rd of my checks and paid off all my credit card debt, house and both cars by the time I was 38.
This allowed us to swap roles so she could go after the career she wanted helping disabled kids in a job that is not huge pay but she never has to worry about being stressed about bills. I am also a realist. We are 30 trillion dollars in debt with a country slowly shifting further and further to the right in terms of power so the chances that Republicans try to raise my retirement age to 70 for SSI is extremely high to try to save it from being cut.
Also yeah to fully benefit from FIRE you basically are living like a hermit for a year or two but by 2 month into it you have already saved up more money than 60% of the people you walk by that do not even have a $1,000 saved up.
Thanks for turning the focus back to structural changes that could make ALL of our lives better (instead of just the wealthiest among us).
I LOVE this video! So many valid criticisms of the FIRE movement while still acknowledging what's good about it. While it's great to adopt a savers mindset and encourage people to invest for their future, the FIRE movement does often involve extreme levels of frugality among high-income individuals that is just not possible for most people. Many people have expenses or dependents that cannot be avoided or just want to live a little and go to that concert or take a vacation now rather than wait until they are in their 40's or older to enjoy. More social safety nets related to housing, healthcare, parental time off, etc. could also go a long way towards helping people live a more relaxed, secure lifestyle in the first place.
Hi TFD. I've been following your UA-cam channel for a few years. I really appreciate and enjoy the critical and detailed look at finances, the financial system, the corporate structure, and why or why we cannot build wealth. One major omission on TFD and nearly every other financial blog, vlog, and UA-cam channel is the cost of health insurance in the US. No one talks about tying healthcare to employment and why that ball and chain keeps people from true financial freedom. No one discusses how the cost of healthcare, the monthly cost of self-insuring, keeps people poor and sick, prevents many people, particularly those with dependents from starting a business venture, innovating, taking risks. For those who achieve FIRE, I would like to know how they are covering healthcare, particularly 10, 15, 20 years down the road, when they are still too young for Medicare.
FIRE is not for everyone. But it works for us right now. As someone who has been FIRE for going on a year I can tell you that America's healthcare makes it very difficult to do. We are healthy able bodied people who saved for these huge emergencies and navigating healthcare is STILL a challenge. That said, even if temporary our family will be better for having FIREd (slowly and carefully mind you) rather than not at all.
Yeah I also don’t love the FIRE movement - there are better ways in my opinion, or at least more hybrid options
I think the idea of living for retirement, and therefore wanting to retire as soon as possible, is a massive wrong turn. If you watch some of the investment ads, the message that comes across is that real life doesn't begin until retirement. If you manage to retire, say, twenty years before you could collect Social Security, that still leaves a big chunk of your time on earth as an essentially meaningless grind, a mere prelude to "real life." I would rather live in such a way that at every stage, real life is now. Find dignity in your work, for your labor is contributing to society. Try to find so much meaning in it that you wouldn't mind if you ended up doing it for most of your life. If you reach a point where you can't work, either temporarily or permanently, find ways to make meaning in that. As someone disabled by a long cancer battle, I do not say that lightly. Enjoy whatever recreation you manage to work into each stage of life, but pay attention to whether it is just "play time" or a genuine spiritual pursuit. Living to play is more pathetic than living to work. Many retired people find that it is less satisfying than they expected to be on vacation for the rest of their lives, and start itching to do work that makes a contribution again. Find meaning in your work, in your recreation, and in your inactivity, and manage your money in ways that facilitate all of it.
I guess I'd never seen those hyper individualistic FIRE blogs and I just hung out on reddit so for me the movement was just chill. I would add though, that I am not American, I'm from Spain, and even in countries like mine, where we technically have a social safety net, healthcare, and a government pension at retirement age, the actual situation is that it's basically common knowledge that due to the huge amount of debt, decline in natality, etc, we younger people are gonna have a hell of a hard time retiring confortably. To me the FIRE movement was appealing because I cannot change the fuckin policies of the whole country that bounces between governments every 8 years making fake promises, I can just focus on what I can control. Make more (get into tech). Spend less (live with the parents). Easy. Does it suck? Maybe a bit. Is it individualistic? Maybe.
I just cannot be bothered to think of the social viability of every path I take. As you said, you're a Manhattan living DINK female CEO, you care about your employees and your family, you cannot start thinking about if your revenue model of having a youtube channel and making $25 online events is something that literally every american citizen can follow as a living example, you just gotta make your bag and try to add value but cannot focus on whether it's the ultimate social good spreader or whatever. maybe it'd be "More accessible" if it was free, maybe the people who need that value the most are actually the ones who can't pay. idk. and idc either, it's just how you've chosen to do this event, it seems like it was a good event, end of story.
Same with how I approach the FIRE movement. Are tech salaries higher than average? yeah. is remote much more common practice in tech? yes. am i trying to get into tech so i can keep low CoL while earning highly? yeah. Can everyone do this? IDK. I know imma try though, i'm getting my english knowledge up, i'm getting my coding abilities up, i'm getting my networking up, etc etc. I'm doin the steps. If it's individualistic to make choices like these because not everyone has the privilege, or the opportunities, or the "talent" or w/e, then i guess I am individualistic. But then I would also question what "not being individualistic" entails. Is it just following the ebbs and flows of whatever surrounds you whether unnecessarily consumeristic. I agree with fighting for social freedoms but I cannot take the win for granted, and when the social safety nets inevitably get taken away I gotta be ready
Basically, the FIRE movement entices a certain personality and not unclusive of other socioeconomic spectrums. It's like they think people exist in a vacuum separate from society.
I am happy that you have revised your views on the movement. I was doing it before I discovered the movement. I did not see it as a preserve of the bros you indicated. To me its best selling point is working because you want to rather than have to. I definitely want that for me.
As a Dane I am SO shocked to hear that you don't have paid maternity leave in the US
Wait until you learn about "paid time off".
Who do you think pays for your maternity leave? Don't answer to quickly, think about it.
@@escmacs My employer pays. And if I'm studying or unemployed it's paid through taxes. And I happily pay my 52% in taxes.
Weird, everyone I know has gotten paid maternity leave in the US. My friend just came back from six weeks. I'm sure it's more else where but it's not that we don't get any.
@@LifeEllen that’s great! I’m saving a years worth of my mortgage so I can take that time off without worrying about finances. My husband will still be working full time and will only get a month off for paid paternity leave. We want to make sure we only have to worry about utilities and food during my time off. My company only offers one month of paid maternity leave. we might only have one kid because daycare is now over 1k a month in my area.
Broad critiques on the phenomenon. Nice to hear a balanced, critical perspective. Thanks!
yess chelsea. I am also a leftist and we always must acknowledge how the system is deeply racist, classist, etc (rigged). However, there is always an individual component to personal finance. and if we have goals like FIRE, we have to have the individual tools to help get us there, alongside constantly advocating for systemic change.
YES. Imagining fighting for systemic change while depending on the same system for financial support. Best way to fight is have your own system of support.
i agree.
i just wanna share my story of how as a couple we got to the position of my partner being the hustling tech guy with me being the stay at home frugal partner...summary: debilitating health issues, living in an expensive city (Sydney Australia), government couldn't help me w sick pay because occasionally when he does overtime the number on his pay-check hits jut the number that doesn't allow me to get that support, frequent medical specialists and tests cost me AUD$200 -300 out of pocket after medicare rebate..
We play the so called "individual frugal game" (w monthly charity donations) because its the only option we found to a path that has brought some relief from the struggle and will hopefully continue giving us more relief.... if he succeeds in the tech field he is in, we might be able to move to the countryside with his family in England, which will immensely benefit me and his father due to our health conditions (small towns makes us feel part of the community as they are more accessible) , we will finally have more leisure time as he spends hours of daily commuting in Sydney, we will have time to work on our relationship, afford some pockets of joy, we will have time and means to care for the elderly in our family... while having a level of financial security. So far our quality of life has improved even with all the frugality and he is not even close to 6 figures.
Its both!! Your choices and your environment greatly impact your results!
You are really on point. I earn 26k but my rent is 507 a month....someone earning 35k to 50k with 1k to 2k a month in rent plus kids..( i have none) is an impactful environment...
My main problem with the various financial freedom movements is that often it boils down to “become a landlord”, which I find really gross considering you’re basically hoarding very limited and vital resources so you can make more money.
yes!! i absolutely agree with this take. and (may be unpopular opinion) but i think chelsea's stance is ballsy one - one that goes against the grain of many FIRE-loving people who are gungho on only chasing efficiency over everything else. and i am happy it's out there
i feel a little more at ease living in manhattan and knowing there are people like chelsea who are vocal about pushing for local laws and understanding that it sometimes starts small and locally
You are certainly correct in your assumption that a well-off DINK from NYC can't really relate to the average working American outside her Manhattan bubble.
I was stupid for over 40 years, spent everything I made, yet after discovering fire, became a millionaire in as little as 9 years, just by not being stupid any longer.
I remember starting to get involved in the fire community and my wife thought it was disgusting. She had the same idea of those early notable few people and hated the idea.
Now she's really onboard and much happier knowing it's not about killing ourselves, it's just planning for our retirement in a reasonable way.
100% agree that there is so many people out there that simply can't get ahead due to what card they've be dealt at birth, whether environmental or not. Very happy to live in Australia where although things aren't perfect, opportunities are more abundant than the US.
she's our moral goddess of power. only her hotness transcends her wisdom. she knows the answers, we must simply listen. she is not childless, for we are her children.
I think culturally we need a movement for people that is more realistic but fair. "NRWH" Never Retire Work Healthier. So many of us can't even imagine being able to retire, but we need a way to fight and bargain for a dignified working life and unstressed time off. (AND upend our healthcare system for the better of everyone) This is why I'm prob labor movement. Even when a person gets to so called "retirement age" many continue to work part time or change to slower forms of work that are accessible to the elderly.
Our goal with personal finance is to be financially independent at 45. Note, not to retire at 45, that sounds boring. But being at a financial point in which we have basic security met in passive income and savings so that we could work any part-time job in order to be part of our society, keep social contact and a fulfilling activity that provides with income for more luxurious things. This retiring at 30 mentality seems so weird to me. Even if you reach that and have enough money to pursue hobbies, most of you friends do not have that. No co-workers, no friends and having to keep yourself on a schedule for at least 40 years seems a bit... meh.
This is my goal too. I'd like to still have a little bit of income and some kind of routine in my life. But I'd like to be able to work only part time and be more choosy about what kind of job I'll do. My current job pays well but is very stressful. Once I've reaped some rewards from the high paycheck, I'll happily move on to something different.
would really like a video about gambling (especially seniors gambling). sorta like what to do if a loved one falls into the system
Your biggest argument against this movement is that its hyper individualistic and that it reeks of "every man for himself". And your solution, as every other democratic leaning person, is to live in a utopia where everyone joins hands and the government takes the right steps to help the people. But what everyone in the FIRE movement has come to terms with, is if you sit around whining and waiting for your goverment to make the right choices you're going to find yourself 60 years old with no possible way to retire. There is a reason why they took a "hyper individualistic" approach to finances, clearly their community and their authorities are not helping.
THIS!!! 👏😎
Ah yes, the first step to being a millionaire: start with a million dollars
Somehow I’m not clicking on the FIRE movement that were advocated, my FIRE is financial independence for recreational employment.
I dated a guy who became a fire bro one year into our relationship. I found there was a lot of hypocrisy in how he viewed our finances. When I spent money on my appearance that was wasteful. But when he spent money on beer or alcohol that was apparently okay. I can comfortably say I will never date someone who does FIRE again. Having to convince your s.o to spend your combined money on dates or dining out isn't fun.
That's not a FIRE problem. That's a "valuing the things your SO values" problem. Likely would have been an issue no matter what. The household budget should accommodate each member's priorities- including the savings rate.
@@arh1234 Yeah, that guy just value the money you spent on your appearance. Probably thought it was frivolous. He's just an asshole.
I think that is more to do with the person than the movement/ideology.
A hobby is something we do for fun when we're not working. A job is a specific task that someone does to earn money. I retired from my boring job after 24 years. Now, I am happy with a profitable hobby. Less income but happier. Life is a mist !.. short lived !!...
I just find the FIRE movement slightly depressing. If you are working every day in the pursuit of quitting, you're in the wrong profession. I got into FIRE for a while and then I just realised I think I just don't like where I'm at in life. I think I may be harbouring regret for choosing the career direction I chose, so maybe I'm projecting. It just seems like if you aren't happy, change your life and pursue happiness NOW rather than for when you retire.
I like to think it's possible to change your life so you don't spend a huge amount of time focusing on retirement, that shouldn't be your focus. Save yes, but it's like you post-pone enjoyment until retirement, ie eating at nice restaurants, enjoying slightly expensive exercise classes... you may not even live as long as you imagine you will.
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@@kevinharris9471 Fair enough, point taken. It's hard to take risks without a financial security net that's for sure. I'm in a position where I'm able to take career risks by retraining so, looking at it through a different lens I'm sure. I hear you re many people not loving their jobs, most people I know are o.k about their job but don't love it, and I include myself in that. Here's hoping we can all find career flexibility and satisfaction.
A big problem is that we've had economic productivity increases like crazy over the past few decades, especially in a lot of white collar office work. Yet we're stuck in this 40 hour 8-5 work day when a lot of work can be done in a matter of hours. It's just a massive waste of life to only get a handful of weeks of vacation per year and be expected to slave away 5/7 days week in and week out.
That being said, I could choose to only work 500-1000 hours per year, but I'd rather just get the heavy lifting done with to buy my freedom and then scale it back to those types of hours. Might as well leverage compounding.
I'm not a big fan of giving power to the state, but I'll have to admit that some things in Canada and the EU push more towards real work/life balance and that it would be good. I'd be a fan of pushing towards balance and reform in the working area.
For me, regardless of whether or not I can actually retire early, it feels like just good financial hygiene? Especially in an environment where the government isn't under any obligation to ensure my security.
This was a great video and I have learned a lot more about retirement by helping my parents navigate the processes of it. I liked the concept of FIRE, but there's a ton of nuance involved with going down that route. I prefer just FI which means that you don't have to rely only on your job for income.
Maxing for money is the ultimate time hack. Once you have enough you don't have to trade your time for money anymore.
I traded in FIRE for Balance, and I couldn't be happier (am male software engineer living somewhere inexpensive)
I would read FIRE blogs to fantasize about the freedom it would offer when I was working in retail for minimum wage and taking University classes full-time. Since I graduated and got a much better, much higher-paying job, it doesn't hold the same draw as it used to.
I looked into FIRE a few years ago and at some point i did aspire to retire early. I saw the reality very fast after I crunched those numbers. Like i would need to live to work for over a decade in which i would need to only pay for necessities. Like no. I have no issue with saying that that lifestyle doesn't work with how am trying to live my life now or how i want to live in retirement and if i am lucky enough to be able to work until am 62, then so be it.
Not related to this video at all but I would really, really love to see a TFC episode with (ideally) Amanda Montell about the financial aspects of being in cults, cult-like communities, and sects.
Ooh, just googled Amanda Montell as I haven't heard of her... afternoon plans are now set!
Chelsea has a podcast episode with someone from a cult-like community
@@Unholywooder I know, that one was super interesting as well. I never get tired of this type of content, there are so many layers to this
i just wanna share my story of how as a couple we got to the position of my partner being the hustling tech guy with me being the stay at home frugal partner...summary: debilitating health issues, living in an expensive city (Sydney Australia), government couldn't help me w sick pay because occasionally when he does overtime the number on his pay-check hits jut the number that doesn't allow me to get that support, frequent medical specialists and tests cost me AUD$200 -300 out of pocket after medicare rebate..
We play the so called "individual frugal game" (w monthly charity donations) because its the only option we found to a path that has brought some relief from the struggle and will hopefully continue giving us more relief.... if he succeeds in the tech field he is in, we might be able to move to the countryside with his family in England, which will immensely benefit me and his father due to our health conditions (small towns makes us feel part of the community as they are more accessible) , we will finally have more leisure time as he spends hours of daily commuting in Sydney, we will have time to work on our relationship, afford some pockets of joy, we will have time and means to care for the elderly in our family... while having a level of financial security. So far our quality of life has improved even with all the frugality and he is not even close to 6 figures.
That situation sucks! I hope things work out for you and your family and you make it to England.
Hearing how tough it is for you right now! I hope it isn’t always this way. It might be worth having a look to see if you can move to the U.K. sooner, as it’s very hard to get IT staff post-Brexit and negotiating conditions are very good for the employee right now, post-lockdown it’s easy to ask for remote working and the salaries are higher than what they have been. It depends what your partner does (tech isn’t always IT). For context I’m an Aussie, I used to live in Sydney and Auckland but am now living in the U.K. with a husband in IT.
@@LizLow81 wow amazing! Thank you for sharing! He started as an electrician, been a security tech for years now and getting a degree in cyber security. We are planning on moving in just over 1 year when he is close to finishing his degree. Im so excited to move to England but at the same time Im aware I will miss Australia!
@@oohlookatthatdoggo thank you!!
The housing market in the UK is on fire right now (not in a good way) and energy bills have quadrupled in a single year. Living here has become so increadibly unaffordable quicker than covid has spread. The interest rates for mortgages are crazy high, and there's no way you'll be accepted for a mortgage in the UK by moving from the otherside of the world as you'll have no credit history. You won't even be able to get a phone contract for years. You also have health issues, and you will not be allowed access to free healthcare if you're not a settled resident so you'll have to pay for it and won't get the rebate you get from the Australian government. Since Brexit, opportunities are fewer (companies don't want to invest in the UK when they can much more easily invest in another EU country), and food prices have gone through the roof
The countryside is also really far away from anything interesting or fun so you'll be commuting a lot still. I don't mean to burst your bubble, but i hope you realise what you're getting yourself into.
I feel like FIRE really overlooks people who went out of their way, and likely accepted a lower salary, in order to get a job that they enjoy and that is meaningful to them and others. If when you think about what you would do if you didn't have to worry about money, the best thing is if it resembles your current job. Work can be really meaningful and give structure to your life, and for the people you affect with work too. I don't see the appeal of trying to retire at a young age. Now, getting financial independence-- to start your dream business? Or to take the kind of job you've always wanted but that doesn't pay much/anything? To be able to actually do a hobby you love (which costs money)? Or even to be able to make riskier but more interesting and impactful investments? So you can keep making money but can take it easy if old age hits you hard? Now those things I understand. Why would anyone want to retire halfway through life just to goof around and get drunk on the beach? The whole concept needs to be reframed. The idea that the meaning your work has for yourself and others is zero and doing nothing with yourself should be the end goal is indeed some of the most meaningless hyperindividualist drivel I can think of.