Not a shock, necessarily. But sudden understanding on the case. As a Catholic, suicide is truly the one unforgivable Mortal Sin. If you commit suicide as a Catholic, you damn your soul for all eternity, no redemption possible.
@@rebeccaatkins2514 but that's not how catholicism works, the catholic church sets the dogma of the religion you don't get to disagree if you disagree with the positions of the catholic church they would just say your wrong
@@lucasorourke8759 The various religious texts were written and interpreted by mortal men. Even if they are the World God they are interpreted by man, translated by man, and understood by man. Now that doesn’t mean that you can interpret the Bible, Torah, Koran, etc any way you want. But many parts of sacred text were a reflection of times in which they were written. While I don’t agree with suicide only once have I ever been in such emotional pain that I momentary considered it as a teenager but the moment the pain stopped that consideration left. But someone in constant or long term pain physical and/or mental/emotional I can’t say if it is righteous or not. I believe God has more mercy than wrath. Life is messy, chaotic, and many other negative things. I believe the afterlife is more orderly than life.
You gotta love Cragen. Max and him went way back but he was not having any of that judgment. Reminded him what his job was quickly. Also I think it’s weird that Max saw Don as someone who was saved and virtuous even though he nearly ruined his career with his alcoholism. Don got sober but he’s got some mess in his history
@@angelabolton4478 I like how he frequently seemed so exasperated.. Later when he was the boss in the SVU he'd answer his phone by shouting 'WHAT !' haha
Makes me wonder if officers not wanting to investigate crimes because they don't like the victims still happens a lot and affects whether perps are brought to justice.
Yes, it does, though some are smart enough to word it so they don't get caught for the prejudice. It even happens in the medical field, certain people trying to push or convince republican politicians to pass bills so that medical staff don't have to treat people if they're gay or of a different religion.
Any job where services are provided to the public this happens. Cashiers, flights, the DMV, even older folks when applying for things like Medicare. Sad but true.
I agree with Cragen it's not the person it is the crime you should think about and for Greevey citing his Catholic faith and saying the victim got what he deserves living that kind of lifestyle I'm a man of faith but I have no right to judge people and how they live their lives and I goes for Greevey
I would argue, however, that Greevey knew his personal limits; he had a particular point of view he felt might interfere with the integrity of the investigation. Asking to be taken off was the right thing to do.
@@asnowballinhell i think you're right about Greevey being burned out but how he articulated it by saying because of the victim's lifestyle it's matter of time the victim would of ended up dead
Ah the good old 80s when bisexual men were all into BDSM, Catholics never committed suicide, cops passed moral judgement, and fashion was as best as it could ever be.
Cragen was a great boss. He knew when to be empathetic and cut his staff some off-the-books slack so as not to muddy their service jackets but he could also be hard and not brook too much non-professionalism even when he knew the cases were tough and taking a toll. One of my favorite scenes is on SVU where Stabler is struggling with a case to the point where he's borderline insubordinate and Cragen yells at him and scolds him with "I"m tired of holding your hand through this case! You caught it! You make it!"
I agree, Greevey acted poorly with his bad attitude regarding the victim. However, we all make mistakes in judgement or say the wrong thing plus I get that he was offended at the extreme life style of the victim, he just needed a slap in the face to be reminded that he was a person too.
like a alcoholic or a drug addict people like her dad was committing a slow suicide. you go down those roads and that is what you have in the back of your mind. death.
Its ironic that Max had these homophobic views when his partner got transferred for punching a homophobic Congressman who got acquitted for a hate crime.
It's ironic but Max was shocked about at all the situation and at the end he have a Reallity Punch (Anyway Donald reminded him that in a homicide case the detectives can't judge the victim) in Pride (S5) we wasn't saw a "Reallity Punch" on that case and because the killer was a councilman Logan was send to Staten Island because he take literally the concept of Reallity Punch
@@mattkierkegaard9403 No one said that it was bigotry to have personal values. However, Greevey's job is to solve crime, he can't pick and choose. Also, he literally said that the man deserved to die because he was into other men and kinky things. That was very unprofessional.
Everybody's got secrets, unless if you're so straightlaced that you're boring, but most of those secrets are just embarrassing, not criminal, unless if the law is draconian. Makes that cop's favorite argument of `what do you have to hide` an indictment of the police force and their views towards the value of privacy rights in a just society.
I think Greevey was coming from a place of not wanting to have his personal beliefs interfere with his work or the investigation. Ultimately, it was a noble this for him to request to be taken off. Many policemen today wouldn't have admitted/done that until it interfered with their case one way or another.
I will say this left me with a bad taste of Greevey. It was hard to see him the same after this. Can’t and won’t respect that kind of sh*t. These aren’t good morals, just narcissism. Good for Cragen for being the good guy.
The victim was kinky, he did nasty things to people and they nasty things to him plus he loved taking pictures, he died in a very disturbing and uncomfortable way although all death is very disturbing and uncomfortable but he wouldn't commit suicide for one specific reason because he was Catholic and Roman Catholics don't believe in suicide.
In season 1, one of the detectives asks to be taken off the case because he's not comfortable working a case with a gay victim. In season 21, one of the detectives is shocked that a victim's family would effectively disown him for being gay.
You can say you're opposed to sexual indecency. You can say you're a Catholic. But you can't have both. That's like a Scientologist accusing someone of being in a cult.
As a cop, you should know not all victims will be paragons of virtue. It comes with the job. If you can't handle it, turn in your badge. You picked the wrong line of work.
This was extremely unprofessional of Greevey, it doesn't matter if he despises LQBTQ people or not, it is *his job* to solve crime cases, no matter who is involved. Unless personal feelings somehow will interfere with the evidence, "I hate gay people" is not a valid reason to be taken off a case when you are a detective. And saying that the victim deserved his fate because he was into other men and liked kinky things was uncalled for. 💀💀
I really didn't like greevey in this episode he was a judgemental A** who acted like only certain people deserved justice unless you were sin free and Catholic you weren't worth the paper work but i did love his face when that lady came in and told him the victim was Catholic it was almost like he realized for the first time everything's not black and white and that most ish isn't that simple
Hate to say it but Max is the perfect example of too old to be modern. You can still have certain positive aspects about your life, but you don’t get to judge people just because you’re Catholic or raised in the 50s. Get with the times or stay in your house.
the Catholic Irish and the Catholics from Italy who came here were not allowed to have a job and were attacked and mocked and killed. and it was done my protestants. and believe me, there were protestant in Italy as well. they came from Calvin country Sweden. so they became cops. and not all of them were bad. like everything else. you do know you do not have to be a homosexual priest to abuse preteen boys. they are abused by protestant ministers and teachers as well.
Take a look at the data. Gays were the most hated group in America in the 1980s. Sodomy laws stayed in place in many states long after the period depicted in this scene.
1 Corinthians 5:9 In my earlier letter I wrote you not to associate with people who engage in sexual immorality. 10 I didn’t mean the sexually immoral people outside your community, or the greedy, or the thieves or the idol-worshippers - for then you would have to leave the world altogether! 11 No, what I wrote you was not to associate with anyone who is supposedly a brother but who also engages in sexual immorality, is greedy, worships idols, is abusive, gets drunk or steals. With such a person you shouldn’t even eat! 12 For what business is it of mine to judge outsiders? Isn’t it those who are part of the community that you should be judging? 13 God will judge those who are outside. Just expel the evildoer from among yourselves. For more information about the Catholic church watch "The Wine of Babylon" by Walter Veith. You will be surprised by who it is.
As Cragen always says ,"We don't get to choose the victims". This line was carried on SVU and Olivia carried it along the way.
A bit too far at times, IMO.
@@JcBravo8So you like seeing rapists go free, huh? Nice.
@@JcBravo8huh? How can you support victims too much?
@@JcBravo8Big fan of rapists, huh?
's not about the people involved in the crime, it's about the crime"
One of the very best aspects of this show was its willingness to deal with real life with real people reactions.
Wow that end... didn't see that coming. Greevey must have had a shock hearing that!
Yep. That really hit him.
Not a shock, necessarily. But sudden understanding on the case. As a Catholic, suicide is truly the one unforgivable Mortal Sin. If you commit suicide as a Catholic, you damn your soul for all eternity, no redemption possible.
Yep talking about a fat twist.
@@rebeccaatkins2514 but that's not how catholicism works, the catholic church sets the dogma of the religion you don't get to disagree if you disagree with the positions of the catholic church they would just say your wrong
@@lucasorourke8759 The various religious texts were written and interpreted by mortal men. Even if they are the World God they are interpreted by man, translated by man, and understood by man. Now that doesn’t mean that you can interpret the Bible, Torah, Koran, etc any way you want. But many parts of sacred text were a reflection of times in which they were written.
While I don’t agree with suicide only once have I ever been in such emotional pain that I momentary considered it as a teenager but the moment the pain stopped that consideration left. But someone in constant or long term pain physical and/or mental/emotional I can’t say if it is righteous or not. I believe God has more mercy than wrath. Life is messy, chaotic, and many other negative things. I believe the afterlife is more orderly than life.
“Something must’ve gone wrong”
“Yea...he died.” Lmao I laughed way too damn hard at that, that was perfect omg
"How do you know?"
"He was Catholic."
BOOM!
John Simpson Tarkus kicks ass
@commonsense I mean I'll admit it doesn't take much effort, but...
commonsense Your own priests have done quite a bit of damage in that regard. No one likes pedos.
@commonsense you missed the point, its about showing the hypocrisy of our conceptions about faith
@commonsense of course you aren't the Republican party of today has loose lips and looser morals no real Catholic could support that fountain of hate.
“The moral evaluation of a patient is not your concern.”
Dr. Kildare.
The same goes for any uniform work.
You gotta love Cragen. Max and him went way back but he was not having any of that judgment. Reminded him what his job was quickly. Also I think it’s weird that Max saw Don as someone who was saved and virtuous even though he nearly ruined his career with his alcoholism. Don got sober but he’s got some mess in his history
Yeah, I agree.
Indeed, Greevey even told Cragen he wouldn't partner with him until he sobered up.
I loved Cragen. He was a great character, and Florek was just perfect for it.
@@angelabolton4478 I like how he frequently seemed so exasperated.. Later when he was the boss in the SVU he'd answer his phone by shouting 'WHAT !' haha
@@katiezee2 lmfao I just finished law and order now season 9 of svu
Makes me wonder if officers not wanting to investigate crimes because they don't like the victims still happens a lot and affects whether perps are brought to justice.
Of course officers are biased towards victims and perps walk or get a slap on the wrist. The injustice system protects criminals.
Statistically, crimes against sex workers, transgender people, etc., are less likely to be followed up on.
That’s only natural. I’m sure it’s normal...I know the feeling.
Yes, it does, though some are smart enough to word it so they don't get caught for the prejudice. It even happens in the medical field, certain people trying to push or convince republican politicians to pass bills so that medical staff don't have to treat people if they're gay or of a different religion.
Any job where services are provided to the public this happens. Cashiers, flights, the DMV, even older folks when applying for things like Medicare. Sad but true.
I agree with Cragen it's not the person it is the crime you should think about and for Greevey citing his Catholic faith and saying the victim got what he deserves living that kind of lifestyle I'm a man of faith but I have no right to judge people and how they live their lives and I goes for Greevey
I would argue, however, that Greevey knew his personal limits; he had a particular point of view he felt might interfere with the integrity of the investigation. Asking to be taken off was the right thing to do.
He said he had hit burn out and couldn't be objective. Knowing your limits is an important part of the job.
yo did this guy just say that, as a Catholic, he has no right to judge people? lollololo
@@gsofficial What are you, an atheist! Lololol
@@asnowballinhell i think you're right about Greevey being burned out but how he articulated it by saying because of the victim's lifestyle it's matter of time the victim would of ended up dead
I love how real this show was, the detectives were not perfect. I’m watching criminal intent and Goren solves every crime...gets a bit boring...
Goren was a deeply flawed and seriously messed up man. Part of the reason for his success.
Well L&O C.I did a great job of showing how flawed Goren was
Ah the good old 80s when bisexual men were all into BDSM, Catholics never committed suicide, cops passed moral judgement, and fashion was as best as it could ever be.
I almost chastised you on the fashion point, then I woke up, lol.
@@SuperSayinSolidSnek Well, I would beg to differ regarding fashion. I think, the Sixties were ahead regarding fashion.
...just as well this clip is from the 90s then...
Yep. The pilot screened in '89, but the rest of the season was filmed in 1990.
Think this was early 90's, same mentality though
Cragen was a great boss. He knew when to be empathetic and cut his staff some off-the-books slack so as not to muddy their service jackets but he could also be hard and not brook too much non-professionalism even when he knew the cases were tough and taking a toll. One of my favorite scenes is on SVU where Stabler is struggling with a case to the point where he's borderline insubordinate and Cragen yells at him and scolds him with "I"m tired of holding your hand through this case! You caught it! You make it!"
Even though Greevey was in the wrong here, he nonetheless was a great detective. There were instances where the case was solved by his hard work.
Social attitudes changed slowly. The uptick in crime rates combined with a drug epidemic and AIDs made the 80s very complicated.
I agree, Greevey acted poorly with his bad attitude regarding the victim. However, we all make mistakes in judgement or say the wrong thing plus I get that he was offended at the extreme life style of the victim, he just needed a slap in the face to be reminded that he was a person too.
You do realize that this was a TV show, and Greeley wasn’t a real policeman?
George Southwick Um, yeah. It’s called character development.
@@georgesouthwick7000 People analyze the characters and their actions all the time; yes, we know they are fictional characters.
I love the logic: he's Catholic and so would never commit suicide....but that Catholicism didn't stop him from bisexual, promiscuous, BDSM.....
he was probably intimately acquainted with a few priests, so he knew what they wer e into.
Half of the Catholic priests are fruity anyways.
I remember the scene with Greevey and Cragen very well. Great scene.
It’s insane how old school the early seasons were, there’s literally an IBM Selectric in the corner at 1:50
Daughter: He was catholic.
Greevey: **Bruh**
like a alcoholic or a drug addict people like her dad was committing a slow suicide. you go down those roads and that is what you have in the back of your mind. death.
@@ElCid48 What 💀💀
How do gay relationships lead to death? Where's the logic?
In the days before Law and Order:SVU...
Its ironic that Max had these homophobic views when his partner got transferred for punching a homophobic Congressman who got acquitted for a hate crime.
It's ironic but Max was shocked about at all the situation and at the end he have a Reallity Punch (Anyway Donald reminded him that in a homicide case the detectives can't judge the victim) in Pride (S5) we wasn't saw a "Reallity Punch" on that case and because the killer was a councilman Logan was send to Staten Island because he take literally the concept of Reallity Punch
I can imagine the detectives, not in the SVU, not knowing about autoerotic asphyxiation...but the medical examiner not knowing?
Way less known in the 80s than today. Got its big burst of fame when that rock star died of it in the 90s
The original is still, and always will be, the best.
I'm glad it ended on a good note.
wow, the medical examiner has come a long way from being a news station manager
Wow that last line did made a huge punch 🤛!!!
The irony at the end there is epic, the way she said "He was catholic!"
I can watch this show all day.
So glad this cops bigotry was checked by his captain
WHAT bigotry?
Bigotry 🤣
Personal values and concern for mental health issues is now “bigotry” 😆
@@mattkierkegaard9403 No one said that it was bigotry to have personal values. However, Greevey's job is to solve crime, he can't pick and choose. Also, he literally said that the man deserved to die because he was into other men and kinky things. That was very unprofessional.
Would have been like "Thou shalt not kill, now get back to work"
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Everybody's got secrets, unless if you're so straightlaced that you're boring, but most of those secrets are just embarrassing, not criminal, unless if the law is draconian.
Makes that cop's favorite argument of `what do you have to hide` an indictment of the police force and their views towards the value of privacy rights in a just society.
I always remember this episode. "he wouldn't have killed himself because he's catholic."
M.E. is played by Jay Patterson; he was in a few other episodes of L&O as well.
Cragen and Van Buren are the Best Hands down
I think Greevey was coming from a place of not wanting to have his personal beliefs interfere with his work or the investigation. Ultimately, it was a noble this for him to request to be taken off. Many policemen today wouldn't have admitted/done that until it interfered with their case one way or another.
I will say this left me with a bad taste of Greevey. It was hard to see him the same after this. Can’t and won’t respect that kind of sh*t. These aren’t good morals, just narcissism. Good for Cragen for being the good guy.
Shows the hypocrisy of the Church of Rome.
Absolutely
“Let me get this straight.” LOL
The victim was kinky, he did nasty things to people and they nasty things to him plus he loved taking pictures, he died in a very disturbing and uncomfortable way although all death is very disturbing and uncomfortable but he wouldn't commit suicide for one specific reason because he was Catholic and Roman Catholics don't believe in suicide.
We just believe in debauchery, drunkenness, sexual perversion and false testimony
@@matthewJ142 don't forget the belief that Acceptance of any other "culture" only goes as far as the population... if even there.
But Catholics DO believe in tacit approval of child rape and that priests are infallible and must be protected. So, boo hoo.
Love this show Law and Order
So Cragen started here and ended up on SVU
and Munch was still in Baltimore
I like the first few seasons of L&W
Law & worder?
Kinda makes you less upset with his death later
hey greevey, as an rc you know they get into heaven if they repent, no matter what their sin
We are All One ☺
Cragen was always whining about the media.
Greevey needs to calm down
You need to SHOVE it.
@@TheBatugan77 hey stop it
In season 1, one of the detectives asks to be taken off the case because he's not comfortable working a case with a gay victim.
In season 21, one of the detectives is shocked that a victim's family would effectively disown him for being gay.
So what's you're saying?
You can say you're opposed to sexual indecency. You can say you're a Catholic. But you can't have both.
That's like a Scientologist accusing someone of being in a cult.
It’s great that your worldview is so black and white. Can you tell me what a “woman” is? 🤔😆👏🏼
@@mattkierkegaard9403 what? 💀💀
@@mattkierkegaard9403 "Can you tell me what a “woman” is?"
Your mom, after the football team spitroast.
Live Greevy he was so good
Absolutely amazing way to end the video. That's pretty much the face I get everytime I ask a Catholic freimd what the church means to them 😂😂😂
The medical examiner is Charles from the Ninja Turtles movie.
I like how realistic this is. It's 1990 and Greevey is obviously a die-hard Catholic, so of course he has issues with this case.
As a cop, you should know not all victims will be paragons of virtue.
It comes with the job.
If you can't handle it, turn in your badge.
You picked the wrong line of work.
This was extremely unprofessional of Greevey, it doesn't matter if he despises LQBTQ people or not, it is *his job* to solve crime cases, no matter who is involved. Unless personal feelings somehow will interfere with the evidence, "I hate gay people" is not a valid reason to be taken off a case when you are a detective. And saying that the victim deserved his fate because he was into other men and liked kinky things was uncalled for. 💀💀
Now I know where Olivia gets it.
Had to be a reason why Greevey hated them so much. Perhaps we would have found out in season two...
what Season 1, Episode 10 is called
That actor at the beginning looks familiar...
I really didn't like greevey in this episode he was a judgemental A** who acted like only certain people deserved justice unless you were sin free and Catholic you weren't worth the paper work but i did love his face when that lady came in and told him the victim was Catholic it was almost like he realized for the first time everything's not black and white and that most ish isn't that simple
Add this clip to the "Well, THAT Aged Well..." pile.
Hey it's danny's dad from ninja turtles
And all of them will.
as well because I am innocent.
Focus your attention on Reed McCullough
If Cragen was Dann Florek's age, that would mean he started his career at 16!
Cragen before SVU ....
Auto erotic asphyxiation
max should’ve been taken off anyway because he had prejudice towards the victim
I'm sorry, but can someone tell me who the actress who plays the wife is?
I don't think that he's a burned out it's almost like what Pete Thornton said
🥰 awesome
Irish and Italian Catholics
He was catholic.
*face*
Hate to say it but Max is the perfect example of too old to be modern. You can still have certain positive aspects about your life, but you don’t get to judge people just because you’re Catholic or raised in the 50s.
Get with the times or stay in your house.
Penological.. lol :B
Funny how the 2 biggest catholic gangs and mafias ended up becoming the NYPD lol
the Catholic Irish and the Catholics from Italy who came here were not allowed to have a job and were attacked and mocked and killed. and it was done my protestants. and believe me, there were protestant in Italy as well. they came from Calvin country Sweden. so they became cops. and not all of them were bad. like everything else. you do know you do not have to be a homosexual priest to abuse preteen boys. they are abused by protestant ministers and teachers as well.
Greevey's religion was one of the worst parts of the show. Especially during the abortion case.
Law and order &
Is Greevey homophobic?
yes at least at the begining of the episode
Leigh Silver thanks.
Bill Randall oh.
"Homophobic" is really the wrong catch all term. Max isn't "afraid" of them but he doesn't have a lot of respect for them.
Take a look at the data. Gays were the most hated group in America in the 1980s. Sodomy laws stayed in place in many states long after the period depicted in this scene.
LOLOLOLOL
He was catholic@!!!!!
HBU 212-532-5300
Apparently, that number now belongs to Integrated Services Corp.
That cops is disgusting
He was Catholic. That really hit hard.
now that was funny
1 Corinthians 5:9 In my earlier letter I wrote you not to associate with people who engage in sexual immorality. 10 I didn’t mean the sexually immoral people outside your community, or the greedy, or the thieves or the idol-worshippers - for then you would have to leave the world altogether! 11 No, what I wrote you was not to associate with anyone who is supposedly a brother but who also engages in sexual immorality, is greedy, worships idols, is abusive, gets drunk or steals. With such a person you shouldn’t even eat! 12 For what business is it of mine to judge outsiders? Isn’t it those who are part of the community that you should be judging? 13 God will judge those who are outside. Just expel the evildoer from among yourselves.
For more information about the Catholic church watch "The Wine of Babylon" by Walter Veith.
You will be surprised by who it is.
Gonna check it out. Thanks. Peace be with you.