Farrell's selection of Frawley and Prendergast over the Byrne Bros was a coded message to Cullen: "You dont know what you're doing". The guy is out of his depth.
If Leinster are as well resourced as all the other team's fanbases like to claim, open the coffers and get Noel McNamara out of Bordeaux. The entire coaching ticket needs to go. The last 3 years results are totally unacceptable and Leo never learns. The Goodman appointment to Ireland camp needs investigating because the level of regression seen this season is shocking.
@mylovelyhorse17754 neither Milne nor Clarkson are progressing at the rate needed to push Porter. Culane just isn't being given a shot to just Doris/VdF. The system is log jammed with the likes of Deegan, Sorka, and Penny, who just aren't pushing for playtime in big games but are holding the team back by nit offering true depth. Some of the key young backs have had poorly timed injuries, too (Tommy O'Brien). Leo refuses to give Foley the bench spot over McGrath, yet McGrath is such a poor player. He doesn't even do his own job on the field. Rewatch the match and see how often he's standing next to a scrum, and another player is taking SH duties instead of him. He honestly single handedly cost Leinster that game. I can't wait for a time when Sam Prendergast, Andrew Osborne, Jamie Osborne, and Jimmy O'Brien all get to play together because those Kildare men are showing the rest how to play as it stands.
I believe Cullen is under orders to play Byrne from a top Leinster investor. I'll say no more, but draw your own conclusions. Cullen is also too loyal and is not learning from his past mistakes. Kicking for lineouts instead of an almost certain 3 points is crazy unless you are 25 points plus ahead.
@alankennedy3747 yeah it's his dad. It's no major secret. The issue isn't even the kicks to touch instead of taking 3s. It's that he lacks the confidence to push those kicks into the 5m line for fear of kicking it dead. So instead he gets nearly no distance on the kicks to touch, and makes the packs life harder by extension.
It is very disappointing to have lost 3 consecutive Champions Cup finals narrowly to the best teams in Europe. However, it is an absolute shame and disgrace to have not made a final in the URC since its inception. The winning culture needs to be fostered in the league first and foremost. Leinster were in a state of flux this year with the departure of Sexton and Lancaster and the late starts of Nienaber and Goodman. Focus needed to be narrowed to the league this year. With more time for the new coaches and an infusion of new players next season Leinster would be better placed to compete in both competition, and they could be going in as league champions. Cullen has to answer for that.
Agreed. Leo has been in the driving seat for nearly 10 years now at this point. It's hardly a football style kneejerk reaction to move on when he's so consistent in making the same old errors, over such a long stint in charge. He's now 1-4 in euro cup finals. He has 4/9 URC titles. "One more chance" risks falling into the relm of "the definition of insanity".
Great debate guys. Irrespective of how things go next season - it will be Leo's last season in my opinion. Stuart Lancaster should never have been allowed to leave Leinster. A year ago we should have transitioned to Stuart with Leo stepping aside or stepped back.
The stand and sling 10 is finished. The Byrne brothers are like robots and there’s a reason why our attack can’t function with them. Frawley is the best all round 10 at the club and Prendergarst has a Finn Russell nature to him. Farrell sees them as the two best 10s at Leinster and so do all Leinster supporters who turn out week on week. If Cullen can’t see this he needs to leave the organisation
It would make sense for Leo to move into a more back room, director of Rugby/performance type role, although who knows if he would want to do that, and bring in someone else as head coach. The jury is out on whether Nienaber would be the right man for that role, but what other candidates are out there?
Very much so and we said that after the match in London. Then again Matt O'Connor could argue the same could be said about him if a Gopperth DG went over against Toulon...
Well it would certainly be a different story if Leinster backed Frawley as their 10. Leinster don’t lose to Toulouse with Lancaster at the helm, the fact Leinster lost to them shows it’s a coaching problem
I don’t think you can underestimate the signal that Farrell has sent by excluding the Byrnes from the international squad. It’s a direct attack on Cullen’s judgment, and maybe a signal of tension behind the scenes. Could he leave this summer? He’s on a rolling one year contract, right?
is Cullen really the issue? wasn't he part of the coaching team that shaped the best attack in Europe? Are the problems not obvious after a season? Out half is the big problem . The other , to me, obvious thing, is that the focus on the Nienaber defence has created a different shape to the team which seems also to be impacting attack.Its also giving very obvious attack points for other teams at the top level. No offence to Glasgow who are a quality team but the fact they beat the Bulls in the final in Pretoria illustrates those points about Leinster even more.
Leinsters beautiful hive minded attack has gone , pretty much all season, Leo has had ample time and resource's to replace Sexton , which he has failed miserably to do, his choices of resting the International players has cost the club dearly. He needs to go, it is a business and Leo is failing to deliver. Leinsters are looking their poorest they have been for many years. The A team simply are not playing enough Rugby as well as coaching issues and bad management calls. The saying 3 strikes and you are out is so relevant in Leo's case, we don't need a fourth strike. Andy Farrell has a job and a half to get something out of these Leinster players in a few weeks time against South Africa, which looking at them now looks like an impossible task. Stuart Lancaster had this team flying with beautiful Rugby and the Top job should have been offered to him and Leo retired. Again, it is a business and with the amount of resources at Leinster's disposal there is no excuse to hold on nostalgia.
Massive resources my arse. Most homegrown team in comp they are not allowed go and just buy what they want in any position. They have to push through there own
Leo, Nienaber, McBryde and O'Brien all need to go. The defensive system works when you have an endless supply of roided up 150kg monsters and 3 Usain Bolts out wide. It doesn't work when you abide by the rules and don't use PED's. The work around contact has been frankly abysmal. O'Brien is responsible for that. Our maul is the worst in the URC. Our scrum is farcically bad and has been for years. McBryde shouldve been sacked 2 years ago let alone now. Leo will always be a club legend. But enough is enough. His insistence on the Byrne brothers and McGrath has cost us yet again. Time to move on.
Maybe he should be Director of rugby, not coach. When coaches or CEOs of organisations start losing in whatever way, or losing the touch, the underlying causes are often multiple, subtle and hard to ID. You then get debates like this one with everyone sitting on the fence after moaning but then saying it’s not personal et al. Sometimes it’s best to bite the bullet. (Trust me Nienaber will, by now, know the answer to what you are discussing but he won’t be saying it)
Maybe nothing wrong with Leinster coach and players. Consider SA players just being better and better coached. Even though we are always seen as under rated. Maybe not much one can do about it. No mstter who you appoint.
SA players certainly not seen as under rated by me and that's for sure. Plus you're assuming we had this debate on the back of just one result when we clearly state that it is after a series of Leinster results against French and even other Irish clubs.
@@HarpinOnRugbyYT: Thank you for the reply. I hear and understand what you're saying. Let me take a step back. As a South African, I have experienced quite a bit of animosity toward the Springboks' chances to win the Rugby World Cup. It was mainly South African pundits who gave the Boks a chance. French, Scottish, irish and New Zealand pundits did not even mention us as possible victors in 2023. Every bit of innovation that Rassie applied was severely criticized, such as the Bomb Squad and the 7:1 split. Ian Foster, the New Zealand coach, is still upset about the way we played and beat New Zealand in the Rugby World Cup. Warren Gatland continues to take stabs at us. I watched almost all the shows and clips. I think Lawrence Dallaglio and Eddie Jones were the only ones I came across who thought the Springboks were going to win and complimented the Boks on their innovation and the difficult road they had to overcome. Even Richie McCaw didn't mention us. For some reason, very few gave us a chance. That sentiment has carried over to the United Rugby Championship as well. The South African teams are often considered substandard, and it comes as a huge surprise if we win. Maybe my skin is a bit thin, but many European and other international teams (especially New Zealand) always attribute our victories to luck, things unnecessarily going wrong for the other team, the referee, or the way we play, etc. I understand that after all the success Leinster has had, a very close look needs to be taken at why it is not like that anymore. Sometimes, one just needs to admit that the other guys were better. There wasn't much we could have done about it. It's time to reset and start building again.
@@friedrichredelinghuys4003 This isn't about South Africa dude. I know that something not being about South Africa is a difficult concept for some Saffas to get their heads around. Incidentally, I don't know anyone underestimating the SA teams or think they win by luck. If I may generalize, the rugby culture of SA seems to demand a permanent chip on the shoulder that is good in one way in that it shows passion and gets the siege mentality going but can get pretty bizarre when everything is seen as revolving around SA and their teams. Leinster are allowed to be disappointed with their performance without underestimating the Bulls at home, which is not easy. Any team with the resources Leinster has expects to win and that is the standard, it's not arrogance. Actually I find a lot of bitterness towards Leinster specifically and accusations of arrogance that wouldn't be directed against a French or English team with similar resources, almost like Irish teams should say "Gee I hope we somehow win this game" every time. This is our chip on the shoulder.
Leinster lost at home against the Bulls 2 years back with Lancaster and they lost to Larochelle so they look pretty much the same. Since SA joined the URC Leinster started losing big games 2 semifinals again the Bulls in 3 years. If I look at Irish rugby I would say it's pretty much the standard to lose big games.
![2023/24 Vodacom United Rugby Championship | SF | Leo Cullen Team Announcement [14/06/2024]](/img/n.gif)
Farrell's selection of Frawley and Prendergast over the Byrne Bros was a coded message to Cullen: "You dont know what you're doing". The guy is out of his depth.
If farrell was leinster coach and leo was ireland coach ..how do you think it would go
If Leinster are as well resourced as all the other team's fanbases like to claim, open the coffers and get Noel McNamara out of Bordeaux. The entire coaching ticket needs to go. The last 3 years results are totally unacceptable and Leo never learns. The Goodman appointment to Ireland camp needs investigating because the level of regression seen this season is shocking.
@mylovelyhorse17754 neither Milne nor Clarkson are progressing at the rate needed to push Porter. Culane just isn't being given a shot to just Doris/VdF. The system is log jammed with the likes of Deegan, Sorka, and Penny, who just aren't pushing for playtime in big games but are holding the team back by nit offering true depth. Some of the key young backs have had poorly timed injuries, too (Tommy O'Brien). Leo refuses to give Foley the bench spot over McGrath, yet McGrath is such a poor player. He doesn't even do his own job on the field. Rewatch the match and see how often he's standing next to a scrum, and another player is taking SH duties instead of him. He honestly single handedly cost Leinster that game. I can't wait for a time when Sam Prendergast, Andrew Osborne, Jamie Osborne, and Jimmy O'Brien all get to play together because those Kildare men are showing the rest how to play as it stands.
I believe Cullen is under orders to play Byrne from a top Leinster investor. I'll say no more, but draw your own conclusions. Cullen is also too loyal and is not learning from his past mistakes. Kicking for lineouts instead of an almost certain 3 points is crazy unless you are 25 points plus ahead.
@alankennedy3747 yeah it's his dad. It's no major secret. The issue isn't even the kicks to touch instead of taking 3s. It's that he lacks the confidence to push those kicks into the 5m line for fear of kicking it dead. So instead he gets nearly no distance on the kicks to touch, and makes the packs life harder by extension.
@@eoinmiller5620true, but to be fair you could throw a ball further than what sexton used to get from his line kicks!
@kevinheaney9177 true but some consideration should be given to a reanimated corpse kicking to touch...
It is very disappointing to have lost 3 consecutive Champions Cup finals narrowly to the best teams in Europe. However, it is an absolute shame and disgrace to have not made a final in the URC since its inception. The winning culture needs to be fostered in the league first and foremost. Leinster were in a state of flux this year with the departure of Sexton and Lancaster and the late starts of Nienaber and Goodman. Focus needed to be narrowed to the league this year. With more time for the new coaches and an infusion of new players next season Leinster would be better placed to compete in both competition, and they could be going in as league champions. Cullen has to answer for that.
Agreed. Leo has been in the driving seat for nearly 10 years now at this point. It's hardly a football style kneejerk reaction to move on when he's so consistent in making the same old errors, over such a long stint in charge. He's now 1-4 in euro cup finals. He has 4/9 URC titles. "One more chance" risks falling into the relm of "the definition of insanity".
Great debate guys. Irrespective of how things go next season - it will be Leo's last season in my opinion. Stuart Lancaster should never have been allowed to leave Leinster. A year ago we should have transitioned to Stuart with Leo stepping aside or stepped back.
Stuart with Nienaber would be a very interesting proposition
The stand and sling 10 is finished. The Byrne brothers are like robots and there’s a reason why our attack can’t function with them. Frawley is the best all round 10 at the club and Prendergarst has a Finn Russell nature to him. Farrell sees them as the two best 10s at Leinster and so do all Leinster supporters who turn out week on week. If Cullen can’t see this he needs to leave the organisation
@@mylovelyhorse17754 Do not agree with that at all? Frawley is probably the quickest 10 in Ireland. Think your probably thinking of Paddy Jackson pal
Leo has been stubborn in sticking with ross byrne ..aldo lancaster was brought in to save cullen.. and now he s gone cullen is struggling
It would make sense for Leo to move into a more back room, director of Rugby/performance type role, although who knows if he would want to do that, and bring in someone else as head coach. The jury is out on whether Nienaber would be the right man for that role, but what other candidates are out there?
Maybe Nienaber isn’t the right man, but he should at least be given a preseason to season span to show what he can do.
I wonder would it be a different conversation if frawley lands that drop goal 😮
Very much so and we said that after the match in London. Then again Matt O'Connor could argue the same could be said about him if a Gopperth DG went over against Toulon...
Well it would certainly be a different story if Leinster backed Frawley as their 10. Leinster don’t lose to Toulouse with Lancaster at the helm, the fact Leinster lost to them shows it’s a coaching problem
The Elephants in the room is the Byrne Brothers. So much investment, so little return. Why?
No, the better team won and Leinster would have stole it, rather than won it.
I don’t think you can underestimate the signal that Farrell has sent by excluding the Byrnes from the international squad. It’s a direct attack on Cullen’s judgment, and maybe a signal of tension behind the scenes. Could he leave this summer? He’s on a rolling one year contract, right?
is Cullen really the issue? wasn't he part of the coaching team that shaped the best attack in Europe? Are the problems not obvious after a season? Out half is the big problem . The other , to me, obvious thing, is that the focus on the Nienaber defence has created a different shape to the team which seems also to be impacting attack.Its also giving very obvious attack points for other teams at the top level. No offence to Glasgow who are a quality team but the fact they beat the Bulls in the final in Pretoria illustrates those points about Leinster even more.
Leinsters beautiful hive minded attack has gone , pretty much all season, Leo has had ample time and resource's to replace Sexton , which he has failed miserably to do, his choices of resting the International players has cost the club dearly. He needs to go, it is a business and Leo is failing to deliver. Leinsters are looking their poorest they have been for many years. The A team simply are not playing enough Rugby as well as coaching issues and bad management calls. The saying 3 strikes and you are out is so relevant in Leo's case, we don't need a fourth strike. Andy Farrell has a job and a half to get something out of these Leinster players in a few weeks time against South Africa, which looking at them now looks like an impossible task. Stuart Lancaster had this team flying with beautiful Rugby and the Top job should have been offered to him and Leo retired. Again, it is a business and with the amount of resources at Leinster's disposal there is no excuse to hold on nostalgia.
Goi ng for niabar to play sa game are they going to bri ng more sa players we dont breed them ,world cup win 3games by 1pt ,thats unbelievable luck
Cullen gets a free pass every year .
I think McBryde needs to go.
Agreed. Scrum not up to par at all and not sure Clarkson or Milne are developing into their roles either. Fogarty a big loss.
Massive resources my arse. Most homegrown team in comp they are not allowed go and just buy what they want in any position. They have to push through there own
Leo, Nienaber, McBryde and O'Brien all need to go.
The defensive system works when you have an endless supply of roided up 150kg monsters and 3 Usain Bolts out wide.
It doesn't work when you abide by the rules and don't use PED's.
The work around contact has been frankly abysmal. O'Brien is responsible for that.
Our maul is the worst in the URC. Our scrum is farcically bad and has been for years. McBryde shouldve been sacked 2 years ago let alone now.
Leo will always be a club legend. But enough is enough. His insistence on the Byrne brothers and McGrath has cost us yet again. Time to move on.
wow, you lads are pretty brutal
Maybe he should be Director of rugby, not coach. When coaches or CEOs of organisations start losing in whatever way, or losing the touch, the underlying causes are often multiple, subtle and hard to ID. You then get debates like this one with everyone sitting on the fence after moaning but then saying it’s not personal et al. Sometimes it’s best to bite the bullet. (Trust me Nienaber will, by now, know the answer to what you are discussing but he won’t be saying it)
Maybe nothing wrong with Leinster coach and players. Consider SA players just being better and better coached. Even though we are always seen as under rated. Maybe not much one can do about it. No mstter who you appoint.
SA players certainly not seen as under rated by me and that's for sure. Plus you're assuming we had this debate on the back of just one result when we clearly state that it is after a series of Leinster results against French and even other Irish clubs.
@@HarpinOnRugbyYT: Thank you for the reply. I hear and understand what you're saying. Let me take a step back. As a South African, I have experienced quite a bit of animosity toward the Springboks' chances to win the Rugby World Cup. It was mainly South African pundits who gave the Boks a chance. French, Scottish, irish and New Zealand pundits did not even mention us as possible victors in 2023. Every bit of innovation that Rassie applied was severely criticized, such as the Bomb Squad and the 7:1 split.
Ian Foster, the New Zealand coach, is still upset about the way we played and beat New Zealand in the Rugby World Cup. Warren Gatland continues to take stabs at us. I watched almost all the shows and clips. I think Lawrence Dallaglio and Eddie Jones were the only ones I came across who thought the Springboks were going to win and complimented the Boks on their innovation and the difficult road they had to overcome. Even Richie McCaw didn't mention us.
For some reason, very few gave us a chance. That sentiment has carried over to the United Rugby Championship as well. The South African teams are often considered substandard, and it comes as a huge surprise if we win. Maybe my skin is a bit thin, but many European and other international teams (especially New Zealand) always attribute our victories to luck, things unnecessarily going wrong for the other team, the referee, or the way we play, etc.
I understand that after all the success Leinster has had, a very close look needs to be taken at why it is not like that anymore. Sometimes, one just needs to admit that the other guys were better. There wasn't much we could have done about it. It's time to reset and start building again.
@@friedrichredelinghuys4003 This isn't about South Africa dude. I know that something not being about South Africa is a difficult concept for some Saffas to get their heads around.
Incidentally, I don't know anyone underestimating the SA teams or think they win by luck. If I may generalize, the rugby culture of SA seems to demand a permanent chip on the shoulder that is good in one way in that it shows passion and gets the siege mentality going but can get pretty bizarre when everything is seen as revolving around SA and their teams.
Leinster are allowed to be disappointed with their performance without underestimating the Bulls at home, which is not easy. Any team with the resources Leinster has expects to win and that is the standard, it's not arrogance. Actually I find a lot of bitterness towards Leinster specifically and accusations of arrogance that wouldn't be directed against a French or English team with similar resources, almost like Irish teams should say "Gee I hope we somehow win this game" every time. This is our chip on the shoulder.
Leinster lost at home against the Bulls 2 years back with Lancaster and they lost to Larochelle so they look pretty much the same.
Since SA joined the URC Leinster started losing big games 2 semifinals again the Bulls in 3 years. If I look at Irish rugby I would say it's pretty much the standard to lose big games.
He has to go...
I'm soooo bored of Leo, he has no charisma.
Make Jaques the head coach asap
how can those players be top of Europe with ireland but not even win the URC with Leinster? Facts don't lie. Leo is a dead weight