You would think that after all the decades of bitching about crappy volume knob feel manufacturer's would have gotten the hint by now. Nope, we get ultra expensive gear with a $5 knob/pot.
I realize I am probably in the minority. But I actually go out of my way to avoid products with touchscreens. For one I don't wish to be in front of them to utilize it. And two its just one thing that will limit the life of the product. As usually screens dim or go out before anything else does. That and over time the screens lose resolution or brightness compared to new products and it really dates the unit.
All screens degrade, that has nothing to do with touch and repair may be $10 more at most. I don't care for touch but it won't stop me from buying a device as long as there is another way to get to the functions. As a matter of fact I don't care about screens on consumer audio gear in general.
"iPad", but "it's complicated" might be the best answer. The control I use multiple times daily is the WiiM Remote where I have the numbered buttons 1-4 programmed to radio station streams I listen to. In the kitchen when I listen to music instead, I pull out my iPad or phone to manage it. At my desk I use the UA-cam Music app on my iMac or sometimes the iPad or phone again. On all my WiiM devices with touch sensitive controls I disable them in the app config. I don't use these touch controls if I can avoid it as they just get accidentally activated when I am fumbling with the device to unplug and replug it when I need to reboot it to solve stuck stream unresponsiveness.
I would assert that the tiny touch screens are intended for near field/desktop listener who would be within arm's reach of the screen from their listening position. This isn't across the spectrum of devices obviously but for a number of the smaller 2 channel models I would think this could be a common application for the unit. Small apartments, dorm rooms, second homes or even work spaces at a regular desktop. A fun video thanks John.
Most of the audiophiles I know use either their phone, or, better yet, a stand alone iPad for a visual display. It is my opinion visual displays on streaming devices are marketing gimmicks, and add additional cost to the device!
this...using my iPad sitting on my comfy couch. am I really suppose to get up and stare at the screen or physically change the inputs through my fingers...
I agree, would like a screen on the streamer but it doesn't need to be touch, no so much for album art but stuff like displaying volume, "vu" meters, frequency graphs. Playback information and control is fine to be displayed on a phone or better yet a tablet and mirrored to the tv if applicable. The cost to add touch would be better used for software development and an hdmi out.
I don’t like using my phone while listening to music on my Hi-Fi. I already spend half a day with it and it’s full of distractions. That’s why I prefer to stand up from my couch to the streamer and operate it using the touchscreen or the remote control. I’m used to it since I mostly listen to vinyl records and those require me to stand up either way so not a big deal.
When they down-sized albums to cd-sized boxes, then streaming without notes or artwork. We lost that physical connection to the music, artists and commentators on the old album covers.
HDMI out is the future! Hands down, having the now playing on my tv is the whole reason I use spotify app on my tv when streaming, however I get better sound when using airplay directly to my amp. I don’t really care about a screen as such on any component, however the only thing I like having is being able to see the volume number on my amp, which my partner also agrees with!
I prefer to use an iPad to display and navigate songs. I use Roon which makes that easy. Really want Apple to support the same ‘Connect’ approach used by Spotify & Tidal. Apple is the worst to support lossless playback and needs to get in the game.
@@Terry-bs9jb all you need is an apple camera cable and a good DAC and you’ll get full hi res lossless on Apple including many digital masters. You will need to change the settings on your phone or iPad to get this. Superb quality.
Very good points, well argued! I don't want my TV switched on. I feel like I spend too much time on screens as it is. However, when streaming from my iPhone to my amplifier, headphones, etc., I LOVE that my Apple Watch displays the album art, track title, artist and track progress. I can - and frequently do - adjust the volume using the digital crown. All I need to do is lift my wrist momentarily and don't even need to reach that bit further, or have to look for my phone. It's odd that the iPad can't be controlled by the Apple Remote app. I don't have an iPad to test, but I fairly often do control Apple Music playing on my MacBook Pro using the Remote app - including browsing my music library and choosing different music to play. So for me the only downside is the loss-ey streaming of AirPlay, here's hoping for AirPlay 3!
I LOVE the Wiim Ultra screen simply for the DB Meter function.... No it is nothing needed, but I love VU meters, have the Ultra connected to my vintage Marantz 2215b and the meter from Wiim puts smile on my face.... And that's what counts.....
I completely agree! I have no use for a touchscreen on a streaming amplifier or DAC! I just want to start music on my iPhone and then send it to the various AirPlay receivers around my house. If the receiver can display album artwork that is a bonus, but not necessary.
Screens? Do we need them? In my case, no. I do own the WiiM Ultra, but not for the screen, I did not need it, nor really want it, but it does look cool. I primarily run a Volumio Rivo streamer, which I can view the album art on my TV via HDMI, then add a Roon Nucleus One, and the sound is incredible... But, I must say the Ultra sounds incredible via the Nucleus One too, and the WiiM software is second to none, and for that reason I think I will keep it. ApplePlay, not a feature I am interested in. I am waiting for WiiM to build a unit like the Rivo, with quality parts that takes the WiiM line to true audiophile levels. I think they can do just that, and hope they will. Just my .02
That Wiim Ultra has a very attractive price and special software for a reason. Their servers are controlled by the CCP and western devices are full of interesting data.
I think the Volumio Rivo and Primo are the most stylish of all. I was hoping they would have Amazon music by now but they told me it was in their plans sometime last year. I would be curious if you had to get an improved power source for your Rivo in that Alpha Audio seems to think that makes a lot of difference.
@@williamhicks2763 I am using the Farad Super 3 with the Rivo, and an Sbooster with my Roon Nucleus One, and it sounds incredibly good. Very audiophile.
I can understand your logic for thinking touchscreens are really better suited to desktop use. But I have a counter-argument to that. In my own opinion (and I do it this way in my own second system) which is a desktop job, my main interface is my laptop. And it's great. The interface of Tidal on my laptop is better than any app version, so I don't really see the need for a dedicated streamer. In my case I have a Quad Vena II DAC/amp which has a USB B input. I love having a physical volume knob too so I can quickly reach for the volume without first clicking, swiping or unlocking anything. And I also note that my PC as a streamer has never crashed and very very rarely loses wifi signal. This has not been my experience with every streamer I have bought, including my current Wiim Pro. I have been thinking along similar lines to you though regarding my main system where I sit on a couch 3-4 metres away from my streamer. Although I have an Apple TV, I agree that the Tidal interface is a bit rudimentary. So I have been considering buying a mini PC, sending HDMI video output to the TV and at the same time sending audio over USB to my DAC/amp. But then I need a wireless mouse/keyboard to control it from a distance. So there aren't really too many streamers that nail this yet are there. And I think you point to what the market is asking for: a streamer (no screen necessary) with an HDMI output in 16:9 landscape aspect ratio, and a nice simple remote to click through the options visible on your TV. As always, great video John and thank you too for your meticulous research that's behind the scenes of your videos.
I have Roon installed on an old laptop as an end point not main server. attach a USB dac of your choice for audio and HDMI out to my TV for the now playing screen
John, you made a clear point in your discussion : if you have a streaming device on your workstation, then a screen has utility, such as a FIIO R9. However if your amp/streamer sits on a rack or underneath your tv, the remote app is the way to go and no need for a touchscreen.
Warning: Super long response ;-) --- I didn't hear Darko present a compelling reason for - NOT - having a touchscreen. And too much about Apple Music and vertical vs horizontal orientation. I don't subscribe to Apple Music and personally prefer a horizontal screen. But this really is irrelevant to the topic of touchscreens in general as they "satisfy market demand". He said so himself. Yes, people want them and why not? Of course it helps sell units. It covers all use cases.... the desktop user, the couch potato sitting 12-feet away, and anyone seeking some eye candy. Why do people buy McIntosh? I suspect it's partially for the blue meter eye candy.... not that I'm a fan. If you're going to take up front panel real estate with a LCD screen anyway, why not make it a touchscreen? It makes perfect sense for feature rich products (like the Eversolo line) with so many configuration and preference settings. The Menu layering is intuitive and doesn't even require a user manual. The alternative would be knobs or switches and a dizzying sequence of toggles, presses , pulls, twists and turns. Remember the yank and crank happy BMW iDrive infotainment controller knob? Even BMW graduated to touchscreens in their latest vehicles. For initial setup and a multitude of preferences it's real easy using the touchscreen vs yanking on buttons and knobs. Which reminds me, I'm going to change my DAC setting to one of the slow rolloff choices and I might even play with the Eversolo EQ and DSP. Try that with a couple buttons. Oh I did, and it was a royal PITA on the RME ADI-2 DAC FS.
Darko, this is when you are at your best--not splitting hairs about sound quality differences between electronics, but talking about the big picture of what it takes to get a great overall experience actually using and living with your audio system and room
I think an HDMI output would be the best fit - people can increase/decrease screen to their preference as essentially most screens are just too small on hifi equipment. My concern on streamers in general is they are essentially part hifi, part hi tech. How many years of updates/support are offered before their OS (Android or otherwise) for their touchscreen is either a security risk on the home network or unable to receive streams as no longer supported/compatible with newer phones, etc. My old Marantz CD7300 is around 20 years old but still works. No updates/support required, just a reasonably high quality hifi component - add a CD and it plays. I don't think we'll be saying the same for streamers over the same period - planned obsolescence.
I certainly agree that having a touchscreen on a streamer is basically audiophile catnip, and in the real world, for most people, it makes very little sense apart from showing off to friends. I currently run two streamers, which I run with two tablets (one upstairs and one downstairs); tablets are much bigger, with better touchscreens, and are far more accessible when I am sitting listening to music.
For the living room, I own a "traditional" setup of passive speakers and amp (and radio and cd player and turntable) and have been streaming from my phone via rca. I have been thinking of a different setup for a long time, one that should also include streaming, preferably an all in one (I know, I know) but nothing seemed "ok" enough; a streaming amp came into the discussion to replace the one I have, but I was never quite happy about this solution; most probably because 1. it seems like the kind of solution that would become obsolete rather quickly and 2. the little screen makes no sense to me either. Of course, a streaming amp without a display would solve one of two problems, but not both. I must admit that streaming through a smart tv was never in my plans, since a tv was never in my plans; but after watching enough Darko videos (at least for now) I am convinced that it is a pretty darn good solution - big screen, remote, also can use the phone as a remote (I think) if in a different room (for any reason), streaming apps should be up to date at all times and/or easier to update than the ones inside a streaming amp (I think)...
iPad - I have a Mac BookAir (Intel = old+cheap) connected to my dac that runs Audirvana to stream local files and also stuff from Qobuz. I control it from my couch using and iPad mini that allows me to see album art and extra content. I'm a happy bunny. FYI, none of my hifi gear has a screen and I actually enjoy moving around to select and cue vinyl. So yeah, not so much future-fi as retro-faff. But I repeat, I'm a happy bunny.
TV. I am pretty anti-touchscreen. I want a traditional-looking device with buttons and knobs. Plus, I use ROON on mostly my laptop but sometimes my tablet or phone.
If you're watching a screen for details of ... cover art, level, metadata etc. - you're not listening. Switch all the lights off, or dim them, and listen in the dark or semi-darkness. Suppress one of your senses, and the others perk up, including your hearing. I don't need a Now Playing, because I KNOW WHAT I'M LISTENING TO. I remember selecting it shortly before listening to it, and I know the music. Why would I need a display of it?
my setup is laptop connected to Mission 778X via usb, an HDMI cable from laptop to TV which then mirrors what's on laptop screen even with it closed as long as i don't shut it down & instead put it in sleep mode, i control the laptop from my listening position using a cheap as chips wireless handheld keyboard with track pad & can stream my chosen music app & anything else such as watching your channel. simple & effective.
The Airplay 2 Apple Music app does not downsample to airplay 2 receiving devices when you have dolby atmos disabled, sound check disabled, AND the track must not be downloaded. This is a bug in the current Apple Music app because it is updated to support new functionality of airplay which have not been enable on even the iOS 18 developer betas yet, but will be enabled by the public stable iOS 18 release. What is happening is that the Apple Music and Tidal app notice that the output device is airplay and attempts to send the atmos file to the airplay device, but airplay iOS stops this before its sent and downsamples it to aac 256kbps and sends it to the airplay 2 receiver as dolby Atmos over airplay is not supported iOS side, and receiving device side yet. the sound check bug is another manifestation of this issue, as there is a new implementation to identify source because of the addition of atmos support. Please understand that this is not a misrepresentation of the capabilities of Airplay on Apple's part, but a "version" mismatch bug caused by the feature updates to the airplay protocol. In fact you can test this by streaming Apple Music from an apple device that supports airplay 2 but not Spatial Audio. you will always get cd quality. Also I read your article, and there is a portion of the table that has HomePods listed as a receiving device, HomePods and Apple TVs work differently as they are native Apple Music players, and can stream Apple Music directly, so dont mix the 2, as when you are streaming music, the moment you select it through airplay, it will switch to player mode and stream the song directly, your phone can disconnect from the internet and it will still play all songs in queue, whereas with airplay 2 speakers, the song will only play till the last data buffer was sent.
Great analysis! I find the display on my NAD M33 more pretty than useful. That's why I placed a Ropiee Display on top of the M33 for better visibility of album art and metadata. I would have loved to use my TV for this, but it's an OLED and the danger of burn-in is real. I find a large iPad in portrait mode on stand sitting on the side table to be ideal. Regarding apps, I find it annoying that the BluOS app doesn't replicate ALL settings of the M33's screen, so sometimes I do have to crouch down on the floor. I think manufactures will continue with the displays because it sells and doesn't cost them much.
I for one, was disappointed that the Wiim Ultra’s HDMI was audio only. I have an iPad in my office that is connected to a TV, so often run it with the Wiim application cover art. Would like Wiim to add a video HDMI for the option in my living room. I use the touch screen in my office on the Ultra, so both is my response.
Hello, how are you? I hope you are doing well. I have a question for you. I use a turn table and I normally used it directly to the amplifier using a Zen Phono, but I wanted to use it through the Wiim Ultra and it doesn't sound good at all. If I remove it and put it directly into the Wiim Ultra's phono, it works, but I notice that the quality drops. I want it like this for when I use all the speakers in the house through Chromecast. So what can I do? Or do you think the Wiim ultra phono is good? Thank you very much for your help.
A hidden Raspberry pi with a dac to my amp. I can play lossless hires from all popular services in Addition to Spotify connect. All this controlled from whatever whatever client you like. A nice iPad or my phone. This is the perfect ui. I just select what speakers I want to play from the client
I wonder why no manufacturer has built a product that does what eversolo do, put the screen of the streamer on your phone but yet actually do not put any physical screen on the device itself. Some kind of a virtual/remote screen. You can still install android apps like Apple Music on the device itself, control it by using your phone, but the sound signal would play natively on the device.
Agree that touchscreen on streamer can be replaced by APP. But touchscreen is still good as I prefer all devices should be standalone (not dependent to APP) when needed.
For sofa listening I'd much rather use an iPad or iPhone to remotely control my Roon server, with the addition of using the TV:Remote app for the extra visual. The only need for an on-board screen on a device would be if you're a desktop only user. I would much rather companies invest in the quality of the streamer internals than adding a touch screen.
Great article. I have KEF LS50W2, Samsung Frame TV on the wall and Samsung phone. I start Spotify connect in the KEF app which I control from my Samsung phone (the app is always open on the phone), I then start Spotify connect app on the TV and ensure that Spotify is still using the speakers built in Spotify connect, I mute the TV. All three sync and I get the art, track info etc visually on the TV. A slight lag on the TV but no issue. I cant control Spotify through the TV remote ie to change the track playing without the source reverting to the TV but I can move around to show the track playing artwork or the album/playlist tracklist. If I want to use the TV as control but with lower res, I select the TV output to the KEFs
My setup is all around Roon and I use my smartphone to select songs/playlists/radio. No need for a screen or even "Touchscreen" on my streamer (sonore opticalRendu). My preamp shows the input and volume level, my DAC shows the bitrate (both PS Audio). That's it. I used to think, that having a large screen is the holy grail, but i have learned from my mistakes. As you pointed out, when your audio rack compatible devices are sitting a few meters away, it is hard to read and therfore useless. I am now in love with my PS Audio gear, because they show perfectly the minimalistic information I want them to show (volume level, bitrate).
Why don't manufacturers supply a smart phone type remote control, instead of having to use your phone.. Smart phones are pretty cheap so supplying a dedicated device would be nice, even have a wireless charger too, so you can leave it on the coffee table or next too the system , I'm not a big fan of having to use my phone for these things all the time.. Yes so leave the unit blank ,even hidden away, and have the dedicated touch screen in your hand.. Cheers 👍
Hey John, Read your review on the new Schiit Saga 2 preamp / headphone amp. I’m leaning towards the Schiit as I already have a WiiM mini and stand alone Dac. Any thoughts?
Hi John I am using an iPad as a streamer playing tidal or Apple Music or dsd through the onkyo app through USB ==> teak ud501 dac . . There is a way to control the iPad with an iPhone. Settings / accessibility / control nearby devices. Control is basic like back fwd play and volume, not ideal but good enough not to stand up. If I need more control I go wireless through an airport 1 as per brother Thomas analysis. By the way what is you opinion of the streaming audio quality between an iPad / wiim ultra / eversolo a6? Is it worth the upgrade?
I recently set up a 5.1.2 Dolby Atmos system with a Denon AVR-4800H and an Apple TV. I had no idea lossless Dolby Atmos playback was available through Apple Music on the Apple TV. It’s totally changed my listening habits. My 77” TV is the only screen I need.
I’m definitely in the iPad camp for remote UI control. I’d rather manufacturers put more effort into making their displays and symbology more legible from a distance than having a touch screen.
I have NAD C658. If I connect my Apple TV to the MDC HDMI unit of my NAD and then HDMI output to my TV, will NAD process and play the audio and my TV display album and browser info?
Thanks John, you've just hit on the very gripe I've always had with touchscreens on hifi equipment,,, Look nice but who wants dodgy knees or a bad back to engage with them . Install every piece of front end hardware with the ability to stream now playing to your TV. Great review. Mark.
I’ve only had my Ultra for a few days, but the touch screen doesn’t seem to have a lot of functionality. Maybe I’m not using it properly. I seem to get only two, or three screen display choices out of it.
Would love the flexibility of all three. I think having a little screen on a streamer to display album art and titles is super neat. That's some audiophile catnip, because it looks cool but isn't practical. However I want it there. An HDMI out for video only to a larger display would be a killer feature, but an app to mirror the streamers screen to your phone or tablet should be an absolute must for any product.
Apple's way of doing things is inferior. I have the Wiim Ultra and I love everything about it. I do not use the touch screen functions, but I like being able to glance over to see what is playing. It is very easy to control with the Wiim app, Tidal connect, Spotify connect or Alexacast. I replaced a Wiim Pro Plus with the Ultra in my office setup. The Ultra is now my streamer, dac, headphone amp and preamp. It is an awesome device.
Now if only someone invented a gadget to remotely control a device. Maybe call it a remote control ... We have two things to consider here - operation and display. Obviously you want to operate your device from where you sit and listen, so any controls on a device beyond an on/off switch only make sense as you say with a device on your desktop. The display can either be big and far away (TV ...) or close and smaller (but my eyes age ...) I think if they want to have a flashy feature to show for marketing make the display a barebones tablet that can be removed from the unit and serve as a remote. Drop it back on the device for charging and storage. Only needs a relatively low bandwith connection, as it doesn't handle much data.
I don't need the screen when I can use my phone, BUT: When installing the device, the screen helps me a lot to do everything right, especially when it's new device When my phone is not in my hand ... It's handy And when something goes wrong, WiFi signal isn't available, internet connection... The device tells me!
Thanks for the visibility on this issue. It's a major consideration for manufacturers. I think the question is a bit leading from your end, and I'd like to offer a different framing. TV, Integrated touch screen, App feedback, better sound and enclosure quality/finishes. This is the reality of the choices at a high level, and there's financial sliders to optimize/address each one. By far the most efficient compromise is the app feedback + better sound for example. But note that the sound is still being comprised.
My main system NAD M10 has 1 of my 3 mini WiiM's into Aux2 controled by my Wiim Ultra from another room. I love the touchscreens on both and a major reason to buy. 🎉 a whole house playing in synch is a nice walk through
My solution is to use a mini PC. There are mutiple benefits, esp if you use roon. Mini PC is both Roon Server and Roon Player. I can sit on my couch and control Roon with a wireless mouse/keyboard. View everything on the TV and audio going from mini PC to roon ready device (Wiim Pro in my case). Without Roon, Im sure I can make the mini PC work simply as my streamer (tidal, spotify, etc..) and still viewon TV. This is a way cheaper solution than ROON hardware and it also functions as a PC that I can use on my TV for any other PC purpose.
I use the A6 in my home studio connected to powered monitors and it's great for the desk. In my main system I have an Auralic Aries G2.2. I love seeing the cover art, that is about all I use the screen for. I'd love a HDMI out just for it to mirror the screen or show album art. Currently on top of my hifi rack, I have a 24" Dell touchscreen. Visitors LOVE it as they can select music and so on via that. As I am moving, I am going to add a TV in between for cover art. But 100% for a HDMI out. "Touchscreen" for the desktops though
My solution was to stream from Roon Rock to Topping E70 Velvet to Sonos and have cover art on Sony TV via Apple TV: Remote Roon extension. The Sony TV screen is better than the Roon Chromecast screen, as the screen is constantly changing, so no burn-ins are possible. This is my perfect setup for now. And, of course, I never need tiny screens on streamers or DACs. The TV screen is more than enough-it's big and beautiful-this is what I need for my favorite music.
My solution is to use Roon as the core of a networked music system. Attached to the network is a Windows 10 core computer. Windows remote desktop is used to control the Core computer desktop from a remote device. I have used portable or laptop windows computers as remote control points. Apple IOS also allows remote apps on the IPAD to also access the windows desktop. Windows remote desktop allows output of the digital signals to be provisioned from the remote compute to my DAC through a connection compatible with the inboard motherboard or attached audio streamer or interface card.
Ive got 2 hifi setups at home and both are computer based. A mac mini hooked up to a TV in the loungeroom, with a wireless keyboard and mouse. And a macbook pro with external monitor on a desk in my studio listening in nearfield. Being able to run Dirac live, TV streaming apps, music streaming apps, youtube, soundcloud, plex etc is way more flexible than a streamer i think....
Absolutely agree. I use an iPad to control Roon from the couch when browsing or checking out the discovery section. A screen on the device is a pointless cost.
We are typing on the touchscreen we should be using. Getting the mobile to operate the systems properly is still a problem they have and it should be resolved
TV. Ideally just one HDMI cable (if possible) else cast out to screen would be good enough. If we’re keeping the touchscreen make it a dockable remote control which basically has the app on it VU meters or cool audio triggered visualisations on the streamers screen is all I want. iPad as a large remote is cool for browsing large libraries so that as an option is welcome.🎉
‘TV’ for sure. The iPhone app with the TV would be the best alternative. For speakers even … my 50” Samsung TV has amazing sound but I can also access a pair of Apple HomePod minis which have a bit better base when needed. Great channel John!
no screen needed on the device. Have one on phone, ipad, pc, TV (Volumio in use here). I prefer an experience as close as possible to glancing at cover and booklet, like in old days of vinyl and cd, wikipedia or artists’ website at the fingertips as well
Thank you for another great video John; this subject gets my mind humming. My personal conclusion is that touch screens, and smallish screens on low profile hifi gear, is an aesthetic plus that lifts an amp/streamer to a more luxury level and makes an item often a better interior design choice. This is true even if you can’t read it or touch it from the listening position.
Currently a HEOS user who uses a phone or tablet to control what's playing. I wouldn't mind a screen for the times when I'm listening to a random music feed and wanted to take a quick look at what was playing. Currently considering a switch to Wiim to get that and a better UI (according to reviewers).
Have an Eversolo DMP A-6 because of the hype. Not disappointed in the product at all, but found the interface clunky (maybe because it's Android, and I'm an Apple guy) Upgraded to the Cambridge EVO 150.Don't miss the touchscreen whatsoever. I do like to use all three - controls on unit, iPad, iPhone, and I use the TV Remote app when I want to see the cover art on my TV screen. The touchscreen is exactly as you say - catnip - so are the VU meters. They're cool to look at for a little while, then the novelty wears off, and I just want the cover art. Great points, and another great video!
No need for a touch screen - just take the info from my ipad which is either in my hand of or next to me. In fact when choosing a streamer I actively opted for one that doesn't have a screen at all.
Late to the comment party, here's my take on the screens. The reason I want a functional screen is I use music to disconnect from my other screens. I'm tired of my phone/tablet. I got back into vinyl for an analog experience and to just sit and listen to disconnect from any and all digital. As I expand my system into streaming/digital I still want the experience to have that disconnected experience. I can't disagree with your assessment of ergonomics, neither visual nor device height and I still want phone connectivity for the potential functionality. But, again, if I can get to my playlists or whatever I want to listen to and put the phone down for a bit my life will be better for it. I agree with the TV points, mostly. It is yet another screen I would like to disconnect from, but that aside. Unfortunately Tidal was just removed from my Samsung TV, but there are other options. And, the Arc HDMI option is fantastic allowing the TV and consoles attached to the TC to run sound through one cable, fantastic! Devices with this particular HDMI connectivity are rare. It's pretty much the WiiM and the Bluesound in this price category isn't it? Annoyingly if Cambridge Audio had included HDMI arc in the CXN 100 I would be done. Alas no, the search for a streamer and a DAC continue. Trying to patiently wait for how Bluesound will finally update the Node and react to WiiM...
I regret buying an Oled tv because they recommend not projecting still pictures (as with 'now playing'). I should have followed my first idea of getting "The Frame". You effectively talked me out of wanting a streamer with a screen as I hate crouching and kneeling in front of my gear when using it. Great video, great comment.
TV for sure. And, specifically for Apple Music -- Apple could own this space if they wanted to, they just don't appear to care much. The Apple TV is practically the perfect form-factor for a set-top streamer. It has HDMI out. It has an interface built for large screens (TVs and Monitors), it has an easy to use remote, as well as full smart-phone access via Apple's remote app in iOS. They'd only need to change the internals a bit to accommodate full bit-perfect, hi-res audio over HDMI (the iPad already does this using a $39 dongle). They could add a USB-C output (and/or a second HDMI output) so you could split the un-touched audio to your dac of choice, while still sending the video output to a monitor or TV. And they could add a simple toggle in the Apple music app that could toggle between sending audio over HDMI vs USB-C so one could easily switch back and forth between the two options. (I'm sure that same toggle could be made accessible to other streaming apps like Tidal, Amazon HD, etc -- they'd just have to add the support to their respective apps). Honestly, this whole streamer dac environment is frustrating AF. I think Wiim, Fiio, and EverSolo get the closest but, for all the reasons you mention, still don't provide as seamless an experience as we COULD have from the Apple TV.
What I recently realised that I want to listen to my music, and it sound as good as it can for my budget. I’m up for changing components out to do this upgrade over time. I listen to CDs, LPs, approx 25% of the time - as my wife says ‘because your on the spectrum’ so love the progress of do so. I am now sitting in a chair with the music. I listen to streaming playlists appprox 50% of the time, while cooking, having dinner, entertaining etc. 25% of the time I sit and listen via streaming (looking for new music) so I flicking through songs on my ipad, never my phone. Conclusion - the screens on the streamer are a bit of a gimmick, for me only.
There is something nice about being able to access all the granular functions of your device without needing an external phone or tv to connect, even if the operation is redundant. Just think of all the av products which are basically bricks if you lose the remote.
As someone with eyeballs that don't work, for the love all that sounds lovely, leave me my knobs and buttons! Knob feel is a thing! I like physical buttons, because I like the clickiness of pressing them, and it's a pain as it is needing screen readers that don't often work well with audio apps. Qobuz fix your accessibility so it's as good as the sound quality, thank you!
I'll take a better volume knob above all other front panel features
You get it 👍
Absolutely G-D right.
You would think that after all the decades of bitching about crappy volume knob feel manufacturer's would have gotten the hint by now. Nope, we get ultra expensive gear with a $5 knob/pot.
Yeh, a good feeling volume knob would be much better
I realize I am probably in the minority. But I actually go out of my way to avoid products with touchscreens. For one I don't wish to be in front of them to utilize it. And two its just one thing that will limit the life of the product. As usually screens dim or go out before anything else does. That and over time the screens lose resolution or brightness compared to new products and it really dates the unit.
Agree 100%. They also die when the inverter goes.
I think you, and I lol, will soon be in the majority. I will not buy or at least not care about touch screens.
Touch screens at a 90° angles below hip height is also awkward as hell
I agree entirely.
All screens degrade, that has nothing to do with touch and repair may be $10 more at most.
I don't care for touch but it won't stop me from buying a device as long as there is another way to get to the functions.
As a matter of fact I don't care about screens on consumer audio gear in general.
"iPad", but "it's complicated" might be the best answer.
The control I use multiple times daily is the WiiM Remote where I have the numbered buttons 1-4 programmed to radio station streams I listen to. In the kitchen when I listen to music instead, I pull out my iPad or phone to manage it. At my desk I use the UA-cam Music app on my iMac or sometimes the iPad or phone again.
On all my WiiM devices with touch sensitive controls I disable them in the app config. I don't use these touch controls if I can avoid it as they just get accidentally activated when I am fumbling with the device to unplug and replug it when I need to reboot it to solve stuck stream unresponsiveness.
I disabled all the buttons as well and use an iPad to control it. No problem with that setup to me.
I would assert that the tiny touch screens are intended for near field/desktop listener who would be within arm's reach of the screen from their listening position. This isn't across the spectrum of devices obviously but for a number of the smaller 2 channel models I would think this could be a common application for the unit. Small apartments, dorm rooms, second homes or even work spaces at a regular desktop. A fun video thanks John.
Most of the audiophiles I know use either their phone, or, better yet, a stand alone iPad for a visual display. It is my opinion visual displays on streaming devices are marketing gimmicks, and add additional cost to the device!
this...using my iPad sitting on my comfy couch. am I really suppose to get up and stare at the screen or physically change the inputs through my fingers...
I have a tdai 1120, only a very basic monochromatic screen.
Agree
But a stand alone iPad doesn't add additional cost?
Exactly, use my iPad or phone and turnoff screen on my streamer
'TV' for the living room, 'TOUCHSCREEN' for the head-fi on my desk
I agree, would like a screen on the streamer but it doesn't need to be touch, no so much for album art but stuff like displaying volume, "vu" meters, frequency graphs. Playback information and control is fine to be displayed on a phone or better yet a tablet and mirrored to the tv if applicable. The cost to add touch would be better used for software development and an hdmi out.
Yeah, came here to say that it sounds like John only considered living room hi-fi.
Agree... for many head-fiers on a desk setup, touch screens make a lot of sense.
Did I not make this *exact* point in the video: that touchscreens make sense on the desktop? Yes. Yes, I did. 😊
@@DarkoAudio yes you did John. All good.
I don’t like using my phone while listening to music on my Hi-Fi. I already spend half a day with it and it’s full of distractions. That’s why I prefer to stand up from my couch to the streamer and operate it using the touchscreen or the remote control. I’m used to it since I mostly listen to vinyl records and those require me to stand up either way so not a big deal.
I agree with you...why be on your phone during a listening session, you're short changing yourself! Disconnect for God's sake, lol.
This!
When they down-sized albums to cd-sized boxes, then streaming without notes or artwork. We lost that physical connection to the music, artists and commentators on the old album covers.
HDMI out is the future! Hands down, having the now playing on my tv is the whole reason I use spotify app on my tv when streaming, however I get better sound when using airplay directly to my amp. I don’t really care about a screen as such on any component, however the only thing I like having is being able to see the volume number on my amp, which my partner also agrees with!
Better sound using airplay to amp compared to spotify connect to WiiM?
You switch on your TV only to listen to music?!?
@@christiankogler6547sure - why not. Btw: cocktail x45 had hdmi out years ago!
I "settled" on the Lyngdorf tdai-1120. High pass and low pass crossovers, with Room Perfect. I'm set.
Take note, Wiim.
Wow how much did that cost?
@@CaBdosdos10x the cost of Wiim
@@yetimtbfreaktrue, but it is an amplifier as well
I prefer to use an iPad to display and navigate songs. I use Roon which makes that easy. Really want Apple to support the same ‘Connect’ approach used by Spotify & Tidal. Apple is the worst to support lossless playback and needs to get in the game.
@@Terry-bs9jb all you need is an apple camera cable and a good DAC and you’ll get full hi res lossless on Apple including many digital masters. You will need to change the settings on your phone or iPad to get this. Superb quality.
It's correct because Apple says so. 😜. I totally agree with your point actually.
Very good points, well argued!
I don't want my TV switched on. I feel like I spend too much time on screens as it is. However, when streaming from my iPhone to my amplifier, headphones, etc., I LOVE that my Apple Watch displays the album art, track title, artist and track progress. I can - and frequently do - adjust the volume using the digital crown. All I need to do is lift my wrist momentarily and don't even need to reach that bit further, or have to look for my phone.
It's odd that the iPad can't be controlled by the Apple Remote app. I don't have an iPad to test, but I fairly often do control Apple Music playing on my MacBook Pro using the Remote app - including browsing my music library and choosing different music to play.
So for me the only downside is the loss-ey streaming of AirPlay, here's hoping for AirPlay 3!
I LOVE the Wiim Ultra screen simply for the DB Meter function.... No it is nothing needed, but I love VU meters, have the Ultra connected to my vintage Marantz 2215b and the meter from Wiim puts smile on my face.... And that's what counts.....
I completely agree! I have no use for a touchscreen on a streaming amplifier or DAC! I just want to start music on my iPhone and then send it to the various AirPlay receivers around my house. If the receiver can display album artwork that is a bonus, but not necessary.
Screens? Do we need them? In my case, no. I do own the WiiM Ultra, but not for the screen, I did not need it, nor really want it, but it does look cool. I primarily run a Volumio Rivo streamer, which I can view the album art on my TV via HDMI, then add a Roon Nucleus One, and the sound is incredible... But, I must say the Ultra sounds incredible via the Nucleus One too, and the WiiM software is second to none, and for that reason I think I will keep it. ApplePlay, not a feature I am interested in. I am waiting for WiiM to build a unit like the Rivo, with quality parts that takes the WiiM line to true audiophile levels. I think they can do just that, and hope they will. Just my .02
So the sound of the Wiim Ultra is not truly audiophile?
That Wiim Ultra has a very attractive price and special software for a reason. Their servers are controlled by the CCP and western devices are full of interesting data.
@@nick_yt23Interesting.
I think the Volumio Rivo and Primo are the most stylish of all. I was hoping they would have Amazon music by now but they told me it was in their plans sometime last year. I would be curious if you had to get an improved power source for your Rivo in that Alpha Audio seems to think that makes a lot of difference.
@@williamhicks2763 I am using the Farad Super 3 with the Rivo, and an Sbooster with my Roon Nucleus One, and it sounds incredibly good. Very audiophile.
I can understand your logic for thinking touchscreens are really better suited to desktop use. But I have a counter-argument to that. In my own opinion (and I do it this way in my own second system) which is a desktop job, my main interface is my laptop. And it's great. The interface of Tidal on my laptop is better than any app version, so I don't really see the need for a dedicated streamer. In my case I have a Quad Vena II DAC/amp which has a USB B input. I love having a physical volume knob too so I can quickly reach for the volume without first clicking, swiping or unlocking anything. And I also note that my PC as a streamer has never crashed and very very rarely loses wifi signal. This has not been my experience with every streamer I have bought, including my current Wiim Pro.
I have been thinking along similar lines to you though regarding my main system where I sit on a couch 3-4 metres away from my streamer. Although I have an Apple TV, I agree that the Tidal interface is a bit rudimentary. So I have been considering buying a mini PC, sending HDMI video output to the TV and at the same time sending audio over USB to my DAC/amp. But then I need a wireless mouse/keyboard to control it from a distance.
So there aren't really too many streamers that nail this yet are there. And I think you point to what the market is asking for: a streamer (no screen necessary) with an HDMI output in 16:9 landscape aspect ratio, and a nice simple remote to click through the options visible on your TV.
As always, great video John and thank you too for your meticulous research that's behind the scenes of your videos.
I have Roon installed on an old laptop as an end point not main server. attach a USB dac of your choice for audio and HDMI out to my TV for the now playing screen
My NAD M10V2 also shows cover art on the TV😌
John, you made a clear point in your discussion : if you have a streaming device on your workstation, then a screen has utility, such as a FIIO R9. However if your amp/streamer sits on a rack or underneath your tv, the remote app is the way to go and no need for a touchscreen.
Warning: Super long response ;-) --- I didn't hear Darko present a compelling reason for - NOT - having a touchscreen. And too much about Apple Music and vertical vs horizontal orientation. I don't subscribe to Apple Music and personally prefer a horizontal screen. But this really is irrelevant to the topic of touchscreens in general as they "satisfy market demand". He said so himself. Yes, people want them and why not? Of course it helps sell units. It covers all use cases.... the desktop user, the couch potato sitting 12-feet away, and anyone seeking some eye candy. Why do people buy McIntosh? I suspect it's partially for the blue meter eye candy.... not that I'm a fan.
If you're going to take up front panel real estate with a LCD screen anyway, why not make it a touchscreen? It makes perfect sense for feature rich products (like the Eversolo line) with so many configuration and preference settings. The Menu layering is intuitive and doesn't even require a user manual. The alternative would be knobs or switches and a dizzying sequence of toggles, presses , pulls, twists and turns. Remember the yank and crank happy BMW iDrive infotainment controller knob? Even BMW graduated to touchscreens in their latest vehicles.
For initial setup and a multitude of preferences it's real easy using the touchscreen vs yanking on buttons and knobs. Which reminds me, I'm going to change my DAC setting to one of the slow rolloff choices and I might even play with the Eversolo EQ and DSP. Try that with a couple buttons. Oh I did, and it was a royal PITA on the RME ADI-2 DAC FS.
Darko, this is when you are at your best--not splitting hairs about sound quality differences between electronics, but talking about the big picture of what it takes to get a great overall experience actually using and living with your audio system and room
I think an HDMI output would be the best fit - people can increase/decrease screen to their preference as essentially most screens are just too small on hifi equipment. My concern on streamers in general is they are essentially part hifi, part hi tech. How many years of updates/support are offered before their OS (Android or otherwise) for their touchscreen is either a security risk on the home network or unable to receive streams as no longer supported/compatible with newer phones, etc. My old Marantz CD7300 is around 20 years old but still works. No updates/support required, just a reasonably high quality hifi component - add a CD and it plays. I don't think we'll be saying the same for streamers over the same period - planned obsolescence.
I certainly agree that having a touchscreen on a streamer is basically audiophile catnip, and in the real world, for most people, it makes very little sense apart from showing off to friends. I currently run two streamers, which I run with two tablets (one upstairs and one downstairs); tablets are much bigger, with better touchscreens, and are far more accessible when I am sitting listening to music.
For the living room, I own a "traditional" setup of passive speakers and amp (and radio and cd player and turntable) and have been streaming from my phone via rca.
I have been thinking of a different setup for a long time, one that should also include streaming, preferably an all in one (I know, I know) but nothing seemed "ok" enough; a streaming amp came into the discussion to replace the one I have, but I was never quite happy about this solution; most probably because 1. it seems like the kind of solution that would become obsolete rather quickly and 2. the little screen makes no sense to me either. Of course, a streaming amp without a display would solve one of two problems, but not both.
I must admit that streaming through a smart tv was never in my plans, since a tv was never in my plans; but after watching enough Darko videos (at least for now) I am convinced that it is a pretty darn good solution - big screen, remote, also can use the phone as a remote (I think) if in a different room (for any reason), streaming apps should be up to date at all times and/or easier to update than the ones inside a streaming amp (I think)...
Wow. I'm happy all I have is an old NAD amp and vintage CD player.
iPad - I have a Mac BookAir (Intel = old+cheap) connected to my dac that runs Audirvana to stream local files and also stuff from Qobuz. I control it from my couch using and iPad mini that allows me to see album art and extra content. I'm a happy bunny. FYI, none of my hifi gear has a screen and I actually enjoy moving around to select and cue vinyl. So yeah, not so much future-fi as retro-faff. But I repeat, I'm a happy bunny.
TV. I am pretty anti-touchscreen. I want a traditional-looking device with buttons and knobs. Plus, I use ROON on mostly my laptop but sometimes my tablet or phone.
If you're watching a screen for details of ... cover art, level, metadata etc. - you're not listening.
Switch all the lights off, or dim them, and listen in the dark or semi-darkness. Suppress one of your senses, and the others perk up, including your hearing.
I don't need a Now Playing, because I KNOW WHAT I'M LISTENING TO. I remember selecting it shortly before listening to it, and I know the music. Why would I need a display of it?
I prefer the hdmi to view it in the TV. I also like you love my sofa 🤩
My dream streamer would be a unit with nativ lossless Apple Music. Bit perfect output DAC and visuals to TV with full featured remote app
Apple needs to do Apple Music Connect desperately. Maybe it’s time there’s industry standard for this as everyone seems to do it differently.
“Audiophile catnip” 😂 I love the new white wall btw
15:00 I wish Spotify had visualizers while playing content like VU meters or Audio Spectrums
my setup is laptop connected to Mission 778X via usb, an HDMI cable from laptop to TV which then mirrors what's on laptop screen even with it closed as long as i don't shut it down & instead put it in sleep mode, i control the laptop from my listening position using a cheap as chips wireless handheld keyboard with track pad & can stream my chosen music app & anything else such as watching your channel. simple & effective.
The Airplay 2 Apple Music app does not downsample to airplay 2 receiving devices when you have dolby atmos disabled, sound check disabled, AND the track must not be downloaded. This is a bug in the current Apple Music app because it is updated to support new functionality of airplay which have not been enable on even the iOS 18 developer betas yet, but will be enabled by the public stable iOS 18 release. What is happening is that the Apple Music and Tidal app notice that the output device is airplay and attempts to send the atmos file to the airplay device, but airplay iOS stops this before its sent and downsamples it to aac 256kbps and sends it to the airplay 2 receiver as dolby Atmos over airplay is not supported iOS side, and receiving device side yet. the sound check bug is another manifestation of this issue, as there is a new implementation to identify source because of the addition of atmos support. Please understand that this is not a misrepresentation of the capabilities of Airplay on Apple's part, but a "version" mismatch bug caused by the feature updates to the airplay protocol. In fact you can test this by streaming Apple Music from an apple device that supports airplay 2 but not Spatial Audio. you will always get cd quality. Also I read your article, and there is a portion of the table that has HomePods listed as a receiving device, HomePods and Apple TVs work differently as they are native Apple Music players, and can stream Apple Music directly, so dont mix the 2, as when you are streaming music, the moment you select it through airplay, it will switch to player mode and stream the song directly, your phone can disconnect from the internet and it will still play all songs in queue, whereas with airplay 2 speakers, the song will only play till the last data buffer was sent.
I like your video production =) Always nice music.
Great analysis!
I find the display on my NAD M33 more pretty than useful. That's why I placed a Ropiee Display on top of the M33 for better visibility of album art and metadata. I would have loved to use my TV for this, but it's an OLED and the danger of burn-in is real.
I find a large iPad in portrait mode on stand sitting on the side table to be ideal.
Regarding apps, I find it annoying that the BluOS app doesn't replicate ALL settings of the M33's screen, so sometimes I do have to crouch down on the floor.
I think manufactures will continue with the displays because it sells and doesn't cost them much.
I for one, was disappointed that the Wiim Ultra’s HDMI was audio only. I have an iPad in my office that is connected to a TV, so often run it with the Wiim application cover art. Would like Wiim to add a video HDMI for the option in my living room. I use the touch screen in my office on the Ultra, so both is my response.
Hello, how are you? I hope you are doing well. I have a question for you. I use a turn table and I normally used it directly to the amplifier using a Zen Phono, but I wanted to use it through the Wiim Ultra and it doesn't sound good at all. If I remove it and put it directly into the Wiim Ultra's phono, it works, but I notice that the quality drops. I want it like this for when I use all the speakers in the house through Chromecast. So what can I do? Or do you think the Wiim ultra phono is good? Thank you very much for your help.
A hidden Raspberry pi with a dac to my amp. I can play lossless hires from all popular services in Addition to Spotify connect. All this controlled from whatever whatever client you like. A nice iPad or my phone. This is the perfect ui. I just select what speakers I want to play from the client
I wonder why no manufacturer has built a product that does what eversolo do, put the screen of the streamer on your phone but yet actually do not put any physical screen on the device itself. Some kind of a virtual/remote screen. You can still install android apps like Apple Music on the device itself, control it by using your phone, but the sound signal would play natively on the device.
Agree that touchscreen on streamer can be replaced by APP. But touchscreen is still good as I prefer all devices should be standalone (not dependent to APP) when needed.
Always a treat listening to you talk about anything, even touch screen. If a screen is to small to see, keep the device clean.
I would never use a screen as I would use a tablet but I would love one for various UV meter settings.
Touch screens are the quickest way to make a product look dated, I'd rather have an amp without one that will continue to look good for 10+ years
For sofa listening I'd much rather use an iPad or iPhone to remotely control my Roon server, with the addition of using the TV:Remote app for the extra visual. The only need for an on-board screen on a device would be if you're a desktop only user. I would much rather companies invest in the quality of the streamer internals than adding a touch screen.
Great article. I have KEF LS50W2, Samsung Frame TV on the wall and Samsung phone. I start Spotify connect in the KEF app which I control from my Samsung phone (the app is always open on the phone), I then start Spotify connect app on the TV and ensure that Spotify is still using the speakers built in Spotify connect, I mute the TV. All three sync and I get the art, track info etc visually on the TV. A slight lag on the TV but no issue. I cant control Spotify through the TV remote ie to change the track playing without the source reverting to the TV but I can move around to show the track playing artwork or the album/playlist tracklist. If I want to use the TV as control but with lower res, I select the TV output to the KEFs
My setup is all around Roon and I use my smartphone to select songs/playlists/radio. No need for a screen or even "Touchscreen" on my streamer (sonore opticalRendu). My preamp shows the input and volume level, my DAC shows the bitrate (both PS Audio). That's it. I used to think, that having a large screen is the holy grail, but i have learned from my mistakes. As you pointed out, when your audio rack compatible devices are sitting a few meters away, it is hard to read and therfore useless. I am now in love with my PS Audio gear, because they show perfectly the minimalistic information I want them to show (volume level, bitrate).
Why don't manufacturers supply a smart phone type remote control, instead of having to use your phone..
Smart phones are pretty cheap so supplying a dedicated device would be nice, even have a wireless charger too, so you can leave it on the coffee table or next too the system , I'm not a big fan of having to use my phone for these things all the time..
Yes so leave the unit blank ,even hidden away, and have the dedicated touch screen in your hand..
Cheers 👍
Hey John, Read your review on the new Schiit Saga 2 preamp / headphone amp. I’m leaning towards the Schiit as I already have a WiiM mini and stand alone Dac. Any thoughts?
Hi John I am using an iPad as a streamer playing tidal or Apple Music or dsd through the onkyo app through USB ==> teak ud501 dac . . There is a way to control the iPad with an iPhone. Settings / accessibility / control nearby devices. Control is basic like back fwd play and volume, not ideal but good enough not to stand up. If I need more control I go wireless through an airport 1 as per brother Thomas analysis. By the way what is you opinion of the streaming audio quality between an iPad / wiim ultra / eversolo a6? Is it worth the upgrade?
I recently set up a 5.1.2 Dolby Atmos system with a Denon AVR-4800H and an Apple TV. I had no idea lossless Dolby Atmos playback was available through Apple Music on the Apple TV. It’s totally changed my listening habits. My 77” TV is the only screen I need.
As a person with an amp from the 1970s, give me solid buttons and knobs.
I’m definitely in the iPad camp for remote UI control. I’d rather manufacturers put more effort into making their displays and symbology more legible from a distance than having a touch screen.
Android TV box, usb audio player pro, TV size "now playing" etc, hi res bit perfect etc. Remote control , job done 👍
I have NAD C658. If I connect my Apple TV to the MDC HDMI unit of my NAD and then HDMI output to my TV, will NAD process and play the audio and my TV display album and browser info?
Couldn't agree with you more regarding screens. Phone or tablet app is the way to go.
Thanks John, you've just hit on the very gripe I've always had with touchscreens on hifi equipment,,,
Look nice but who wants dodgy knees or a bad back to engage with them .
Install every piece of front end hardware with the ability to stream now playing to your TV.
Great review.
Mark.
I bought a stereo 70s to use for this function but the now playing screen has the ugly teal Marantz background. how did you make yours black?
I’ve only had my Ultra for a few days, but the touch screen doesn’t seem to have a lot of functionality. Maybe I’m not using it properly. I seem to get only two, or three screen display choices out of it.
Would love the flexibility of all three. I think having a little screen on a streamer to display album art and titles is super neat. That's some audiophile catnip, because it looks cool but isn't practical. However I want it there. An HDMI out for video only to a larger display would be a killer feature, but an app to mirror the streamers screen to your phone or tablet should be an absolute must for any product.
Apple's way of doing things is inferior. I have the Wiim Ultra and I love everything about it. I do not use the touch screen functions, but I like being able to glance over to see what is playing. It is very easy to control with the Wiim app, Tidal connect, Spotify connect or Alexacast. I replaced a Wiim Pro Plus with the Ultra in my office setup. The Ultra is now my streamer, dac, headphone amp and preamp. It is an awesome device.
Hello ,apart from models of Novatron /CocktailAudio/do you know any other brands of audio streamers that have Hdmi output for TV as gui
Now if only someone invented a gadget to remotely control a device. Maybe call it a remote control ...
We have two things to consider here - operation and display. Obviously you want to operate your device from where you sit and listen, so any controls on a device beyond an on/off switch only make sense as you say with a device on your desktop. The display can either be big and far away (TV ...) or close and smaller (but my eyes age ...)
I think if they want to have a flashy feature to show for marketing make the display a barebones tablet that can be removed from the unit and serve as a remote. Drop it back on the device for charging and storage. Only needs a relatively low bandwith connection, as it doesn't handle much data.
I don't need the screen when I can use my phone, BUT:
When installing the device, the screen helps me a lot to do everything right, especially when it's new device
When my phone is not in my hand ... It's handy
And when something goes wrong, WiFi signal isn't available, internet connection... The device tells me!
what if you use appletv's hdmi going to to hdmi in of an amp which will then also go to the tv? won't that give you high res with the Tidal app?
The last thing i want is another screen in my life.
Lol 😂😂😂😂😂😂 nice one
what happens when the touch sceen stops working Dose that mean the unit is unuseable I prefere buttons and nobs
TV in the living room… but I love my iPad on my desk connected to my desktop dac&…
Thanks for the visibility on this issue. It's a major consideration for manufacturers. I think the question is a bit leading from your end, and I'd like to offer a different framing. TV, Integrated touch screen, App feedback, better sound and enclosure quality/finishes. This is the reality of the choices at a high level, and there's financial sliders to optimize/address each one. By far the most efficient compromise is the app feedback + better sound for example.
But note that the sound is still being comprised.
My main system NAD M10 has 1 of my 3 mini WiiM's into Aux2 controled by my Wiim Ultra from another room. I love the touchscreens on both and a major reason to buy. 🎉 a whole house playing in synch is a nice walk through
10:46 "Hitting the Red Hot Chili Peppers button" 😂
My solution is to use a mini PC. There are mutiple benefits, esp if you use roon. Mini PC is both Roon Server and Roon Player. I can sit on my couch and control Roon with a wireless mouse/keyboard. View everything on the TV and audio going from mini PC to roon ready device (Wiim Pro in my case). Without Roon, Im sure I can make the mini PC work simply as my streamer (tidal, spotify, etc..) and still viewon TV. This is a way cheaper solution than ROON hardware and it also functions as a PC that I can use on my TV for any other PC purpose.
I use a 2015 laptop through a FIIO K7 with Tidal and it sounds great to me. What would a separate streamer add to the experience?
I use the A6 in my home studio connected to powered monitors and it's great for the desk. In my main system I have an Auralic Aries G2.2. I love seeing the cover art, that is about all I use the screen for. I'd love a HDMI out just for it to mirror the screen or show album art. Currently on top of my hifi rack, I have a 24" Dell touchscreen. Visitors LOVE it as they can select music and so on via that. As I am moving, I am going to add a TV in between for cover art.
But 100% for a HDMI out. "Touchscreen" for the desktops though
My solution was to stream from Roon Rock to Topping E70 Velvet to Sonos and have cover art on Sony TV via Apple TV: Remote Roon extension. The Sony TV screen is better than the Roon Chromecast screen, as the screen is constantly changing, so no burn-ins are possible. This is my perfect setup for now. And, of course, I never need tiny screens on streamers or DACs. The TV screen is more than enough-it's big and beautiful-this is what I need for my favorite music.
We don’t need touch controls as we should only control our music using smartphones / tablets as wireless remote.
I use a FireTV via HDMI into my Arcam SR250 into my Benq projector.. movies and music all in one 👌
My phone can cast to UA-cam music from my phone 👍
My solution is to use Roon as the core of a networked music system. Attached to the network is a Windows 10 core computer. Windows remote desktop is used to control the Core computer desktop from a remote device. I have used portable or laptop windows computers as remote control points. Apple IOS also allows remote apps on the IPAD to also access the windows desktop. Windows remote desktop allows output of the digital signals to be provisioned from the remote compute to my DAC through a connection compatible with the inboard motherboard or attached audio streamer or interface card.
Ive got 2 hifi setups at home and both are computer based. A mac mini hooked up to a TV in the loungeroom, with a wireless keyboard and mouse. And a macbook pro with external monitor on a desk in my studio listening in nearfield. Being able to run Dirac live, TV streaming apps, music streaming apps, youtube, soundcloud, plex etc is way more flexible than a streamer i think....
Absolutely agree. I use an iPad to control Roon from the couch when browsing or checking out the discovery section. A screen on the device is a pointless cost.
We are typing on the touchscreen we should be using. Getting the mobile to operate the systems properly is still a problem they have and it should be resolved
TV. Ideally just one HDMI cable (if possible) else cast out to screen would be good enough. If we’re keeping the touchscreen make it a dockable remote control which basically has the app on it
VU meters or cool audio triggered visualisations on the streamers screen is all I want.
iPad as a large remote is cool for browsing large libraries so that as an option is welcome.🎉
Roon works perfect for a TV display with Chromecast! plus you can add it to various TV on the network when grouping music in different rooms!
‘TV’ for sure. The iPhone app with the TV would be the best alternative. For speakers even … my 50” Samsung TV has amazing sound but I can also access a pair of Apple HomePod minis which have a bit better base when needed.
Great channel John!
no screen needed on the device. Have one on phone, ipad, pc, TV (Volumio in use here). I prefer an experience as close as possible to glancing at cover and booklet, like in old days of vinyl and cd, wikipedia or artists’ website at the fingertips as well
Thank you for another great video John; this subject gets my mind humming. My personal conclusion is that touch screens, and smallish screens on low profile hifi gear, is an aesthetic plus that lifts an amp/streamer to a more luxury level and makes an item often a better interior design choice. This is true even if you can’t read it or touch it from the listening position.
I use a Samsung Galaxy tablet to display my music information and Artwork...works a treat for my needs.
Currently a HEOS user who uses a phone or tablet to control what's playing. I wouldn't mind a screen for the times when I'm listening to a random music feed and wanted to take a quick look at what was playing. Currently considering a switch to Wiim to get that and a better UI (according to reviewers).
Have an Eversolo DMP A-6 because of the hype. Not disappointed in the product at all, but found the interface clunky (maybe because it's Android, and I'm an Apple guy) Upgraded to the Cambridge EVO 150.Don't miss the touchscreen whatsoever. I do like to use all three - controls on unit, iPad, iPhone, and I use the TV Remote app when I want to see the cover art on my TV screen. The touchscreen is exactly as you say - catnip - so are the VU meters. They're cool to look at for a little while, then the novelty wears off, and I just want the cover art. Great points, and another great video!
No need for a touch screen - just take the info from my ipad which is either in my hand of or next to me. In fact when choosing a streamer I actively opted for one that doesn't have a screen at all.
In decreasing preference…
TV
iPad
Touchscreen
Would put physical formats above TV 😅
Late to the comment party, here's my take on the screens. The reason I want a functional screen is I use music to disconnect from my other screens. I'm tired of my phone/tablet. I got back into vinyl for an analog experience and to just sit and listen to disconnect from any and all digital. As I expand my system into streaming/digital I still want the experience to have that disconnected experience. I can't disagree with your assessment of ergonomics, neither visual nor device height and I still want phone connectivity for the potential functionality. But, again, if I can get to my playlists or whatever I want to listen to and put the phone down for a bit my life will be better for it.
I agree with the TV points, mostly. It is yet another screen I would like to disconnect from, but that aside. Unfortunately Tidal was just removed from my Samsung TV, but there are other options. And, the Arc HDMI option is fantastic allowing the TV and consoles attached to the TC to run sound through one cable, fantastic! Devices with this particular HDMI connectivity are rare. It's pretty much the WiiM and the Bluesound in this price category isn't it? Annoyingly if Cambridge Audio had included HDMI arc in the CXN 100 I would be done. Alas no, the search for a streamer and a DAC continue. Trying to patiently wait for how Bluesound will finally update the Node and react to WiiM...
Replying to myself... Bluesound has made this more interesting now haven't they?
I regret buying an Oled tv because they recommend not projecting still pictures (as with 'now playing'). I should have followed my first idea of getting "The Frame". You effectively talked me out of wanting a streamer with a screen as I hate crouching and kneeling in front of my gear when using it. Great video, great comment.
TV for sure. And, specifically for Apple Music -- Apple could own this space if they wanted to, they just don't appear to care much. The Apple TV is practically the perfect form-factor for a set-top streamer. It has HDMI out. It has an interface built for large screens (TVs and Monitors), it has an easy to use remote, as well as full smart-phone access via Apple's remote app in iOS. They'd only need to change the internals a bit to accommodate full bit-perfect, hi-res audio over HDMI (the iPad already does this using a $39 dongle). They could add a USB-C output (and/or a second HDMI output) so you could split the un-touched audio to your dac of choice, while still sending the video output to a monitor or TV. And they could add a simple toggle in the Apple music app that could toggle between sending audio over HDMI vs USB-C so one could easily switch back and forth between the two options. (I'm sure that same toggle could be made accessible to other streaming apps like Tidal, Amazon HD, etc -- they'd just have to add the support to their respective apps).
Honestly, this whole streamer dac environment is frustrating AF. I think Wiim, Fiio, and EverSolo get the closest but, for all the reasons you mention, still don't provide as seamless an experience as we COULD have from the Apple TV.
What I recently realised that I want to listen to my music, and it sound as good as it can for my budget.
I’m up for changing components out to do this upgrade over time.
I listen to CDs, LPs, approx 25% of the time - as my wife says ‘because your on the spectrum’ so love the progress of do so. I am now sitting in a chair with the music.
I listen to streaming playlists appprox 50% of the time, while cooking, having dinner, entertaining etc.
25% of the time I sit and listen via streaming (looking for new music) so I flicking through songs on my ipad, never my phone.
Conclusion - the screens on the streamer are a bit of a gimmick, for me only.
TV but I love the control I have using my iPad
There is something nice about being able to access all the granular functions of your device without needing an external phone or tv to connect, even if the operation is redundant. Just think of all the av products which are basically bricks if you lose the remote.
I’ve always wanted Bluesound with native streaming and a HDMI for video only.
Using a 55' TV for album art is an enormous waste of energy. Modern tvs have terrible energy efficiency ratings
Not really same as an incandescent lightbulb.
WIIM is great !!
As someone with eyeballs that don't work, for the love all that sounds lovely, leave me my knobs and buttons! Knob feel is a thing! I like physical buttons, because I like the clickiness of pressing them, and it's a pain as it is needing screen readers that don't often work well with audio apps. Qobuz fix your accessibility so it's as good as the sound quality, thank you!