Some interesting notes about the affinity mechanic: The reduction effect of affinity is determined when the spell is declared, not when you pay for the spell. Therefore if you find yourself with nothing on the battlefield except a black lotus and want to cast frogmite(CMC:4 with affinity for artifacts), it is possible. First, you declare you are casting frogmite. Because you have black lotus on the field, the mana cost is determined to be 3. Then, you pay for the spell by sacing BL for the necessary three mana. Even though there are no artifacts left on the battlefield, the determined mana cost of frogmite stays at 3 and the spell goes on the stack. The more you know.
People in my town like to decide first turn by highest casting cost on the bottom of the library. We treat x like 0 but I like to joke and call it infinity. Also just a tip for deck building. I like to ask myself how much many I would need to put into that card in order to make it worth while, and then I count its casting cost as that while building my deck.
I'm a judge, and I judge at the local store. What anoys me the most is that people don't READ the card. Read it, then do as it says. NOT read it and do what you think it does. I even see fairly good players doing this mistake...
Or, depending on the player, they might be doing it intentionally? If the opponent notices the shenanigans and calls them out on it, the scummy player can always cop out by claiming it was just a mistake and they misread the card.
I think another interesting idea for a video would be "Calculating the real cost of a card" including mana cost, tempo cost, vulnerability cost (Dies to all removal with no upside, etc) and things like card advantage etc. Just an idea!
Little wrong with the order of putting the spell on the stack. Paying for the spell is the last thing you do and announcing the spell is the first thing you do. -- Love the content though bro keep up the good work! The player announces that he or she is casting the spell. If the spell is modal the player announces the mode choice The player announces his or her choice of an appropriate player, object, or zone for each target the spell requires. A spell may require some targets only if an alternative or additional cost (such as a buyback or kicker cost) If the spell requires the player to divide or distribute an effect (such as damage or counters) among one or more targets, the player announces the division. The player determines the total cost of the spell. If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to activate mana abilities (see rule 605, "Mana Abilities"). The player pays the total cost in any order. Partial payments are not allowed.
You never mentioned how lands have a CMC of 0, however they are not spells ofc. But because of that you can grab a land from graveyard using Seasons Past.
Des At 5:30 you state that CMC refers to the printed value which is why cards like inquisition and mindbender use that specific wording when talking about cards in hand. So wouldnt void winnower prevent the casting of endless one no matter what the stated value of X is because endless ones cmc is 0 (as printed)
He's a little wrong when talking about what is CMC, see rule 202.3b "When calculating the converted mana cost of an object with {X} in its mana cost, X is treated as 0 while the object is not on the stack, and X is treated as the number chosen for it while the object is on the stack." He has the gist correct, except that a spells converted mana cost is whatever the amount paid is including X while the spell is on the stack. Additionally Void Winnower only checks the converted mana costs of spells and not cards, which I know seems the same thing, but it's not otherwise Void Winnower would also prevent lands from coming into play. A spell is only a spell while it's on the stack, and if Endless One goes on the stack with a CMC of 5, the Void Winnower doesn't care about it being cast. Then once on the field it becomes a 0 CMC creature which also gains the partial unblockable clause.
That's a good explanation. I understand now. The only point I think you got wrong, though, is that void winnower couldn't prevent lands from entering the battlefield regardless of if it checked cmc in hand or cmc on stack because lands aren't casted
That's kind of the point I was trying to make. If it said you can't play cards with an even converted mana cost, you'd never be able to play your Endless One. Lands, because of clash effects, do have a CMC of 0, which would mean that if Void Winnower were printed to say you can't play cards with even CMC, then you couldn't play lands. Probably strayed a little off topic there, but basically was trying to point out the distinction between the term card and the term spell as well as explain why it would check spell verses card since checking card would make the card game-breakingly powerful.
I use to have a deck that abused the legend rule like a redheaded step child. lol, small of easy dreadge/ reanimator style deck with Mr. Kokusho, the Evening Star as my abused legendary creature.
I'm still eager to hear a mathematical analysis of the negligible impact of playing an additional basic land to make a 61 card deck along the same vein as your old hypergeometric distribution video.
So if I use pyromasters goggles on an avacyn's judgment that has its madness cost triggered and I pay 5 mana and use the goggles for the 1 red mana, does the copy of avacyn's judgment deal 0 damage due to it being a copy and its cmc is X so then X=0 is that correct?
I feel like most of this stuff in magic is actually quite logical, when you realize you would have to remember the converted mana cost of the Endless One (if something moves +1/+1 counters you could forget the original value for X) It's just like damage resetting at the end of turn. Just imagine 8 player commander games where damage persists...
If i see that shit going on at my lgs I step in, no cheating. Understanding the rules makes for a better player I think. I like educating others as well, props.
Basically, when you announce that X will be 5, while casting that becomes the mana cost. This allows you to play Endless one. When it lands on the field of play, its cost returns to 0. Being an even cost, it can't block while Void Winnower is in play. Hope that cleared thing up :D
How about damage. In my playgroup people don't understand that if I cast the new ulamog and they use pepper smoke on it then block it with something big it dosent die as a state based action for having -1 toughness. The pepper smoke makes it a 9/9 with indestructible so the extra combat Damage dosent kill it (because it dosent lower the toughness of a card).
it's actually quite easy. mana cost is the printed Value on the card (only in the top right. alt costs just give a different way to put it on the stack), and CMC is just total cost, disregarding color. Not sure about the thing on X being whatever you pay while on the stack, since it changes from a card to a spell, but I'm quite certain X is always 0 when calculating CMC (maybe not for normal cost). I think your problem here is you need to realize the difference between a cards mana cost/CMC and the amount of mana you pay. Gitaxian Probe doesn't have a CMC of 2 life cause that would be dumb.
So how does something like syncopate work with something like Baral that says spells cost 1 less to cast? If I pump 4 in to syncopate would the opponent have to pay 5 to let the spell go through?
anything that reduces cost by generic mana would add one to the X cost of an X spell, which is why Niv Mizzex of the izmagus is such a good commander for X cost spells...
Could you include the text of the rules in the description of the video, this doesn't show who i'm arguing with why X is whatever you say it is when cast, instead of 0 like it normally is.
you said "conveverted mana cost is the cost as printed on the card".doest that mean that 'void winnower' forbids to cast 'endless one' no matter what you choose the X to be .?.
nevermind. i checked the actual ruling, it clearly says that you can cast endless one for odd numbers. gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=402093
it's mana cost is still only it's converted, so if it cost 4 to cast it, and it's Converted mana cost is 5 you could still cast it against void winnower
woot coconut brigade! So I will assume (yep yep, I know what I get when I assume.) a cost reduction is like a "pass" like the reverse example of Judge's Familiar.
actually i think you've made a mistake there: in your example void winnower / endless one you say you could cast it for 19, 17 and so on as long as it's not even. if I'm not mistaken void winnower referring to an even cmc means you can't cast the endless one in any situation because it's cmc is always zero even if you say x is 9999. correct me if I'm wrong though.
Void winnower (silently and only in the rulings) refers to the spell's cost on the stack, not the card's converted mana cost. That's stupid because you can't even start casting the spell if it "would be" even so basically referring to the card while it's still in your hand but really it means on the stack as a spell. But trust me, you absolutely can cast endless one for an odd number while void is out. I've done it online.
It has to do with the wording. There is a difference between play and cast. Winnower uses "Cast" which means that even CMC cards can enter the spell proposition stage but cannot be cast with even converted mana costs. This allows cards like endless one to be cast for odd numbers and still prevents Mistcutter Hydra from being cast at even numbers. If it said cannot "Play" cards with even CMC than that would shut down endless one permanently. This would also shut down the ability to play any lands too so that would really kill the game.
+Damain XI as far as i know lands are not considered spells. the wording on the card is just really confusing because even though it saying cmc it doesn't seem to be refering to the cmc but rather the mana cost which is a bit odd to me
Khaos It is still not referring to the mana cost because then alternate costs and cost reductions would apply, further confusing the situation. spells and abilities that care about CMC at cast has been done before with disdainful stroke, the only real difference is that this is a static effect and disdainful stroke is a stack effect. As for lands you are right they are not spells, but play is game state anyway. MTG will never print anything that alters the game state level so the idea that void winnower affects what players can and cannot play would not be a possible situation in the first place. Correction: They do not like that alter game state level rules although cards do exist that do and they do reprint them. That being said it is still highly unlikely that they will print cards in the future that would be similar to void winnower that use the word "play cards" rather that "cast spell"
Even though you're casting it for 3, the cost on the front side of the card is the cost of the spell since morph is an alternative cost but once it hits the field face down, it's ALWAYS zero until it flips.
Oh, I thought this video was gonna be covering the cards that don't add up logically. You know, like 3 Bee Stings = A Lightning Bolt and 15 Spiders can defeat Emrakul.
hmmm, does that also count through things like Izmagus though? making things cheaper to cast on an X spell adds to it's X count so could that make the cost even even if you declared it to be a certain value?
Some interesting notes about the affinity mechanic: The reduction effect of affinity is determined when the spell is declared, not when you pay for the spell. Therefore if you find yourself with nothing on the battlefield except a black lotus and want to cast frogmite(CMC:4 with affinity for artifacts), it is possible. First, you declare you are casting frogmite. Because you have black lotus on the field, the mana cost is determined to be 3. Then, you pay for the spell by sacing BL for the necessary three mana. Even though there are no artifacts left on the battlefield, the determined mana cost of frogmite stays at 3 and the spell goes on the stack.
The more you know.
People in my town like to decide first turn by highest casting cost on the bottom of the library. We treat x like 0 but I like to joke and call it infinity.
Also just a tip for deck building. I like to ask myself how much many I would need to put into that card in order to make it worth while, and then I count its casting cost as that while building my deck.
I'm a judge, and I judge at the local store.
What anoys me the most is that people don't READ the card.
Read it, then do as it says. NOT read it and do what you think it does.
I even see fairly good players doing this mistake...
Or, depending on the player, they might be doing it intentionally? If the opponent notices the shenanigans and calls them out on it, the scummy player can always cop out by claiming it was just a mistake and they misread the card.
I get the analogy but... can I still be a coconut?
yes you can and so can i
The video title should really be "If you play Mizzix watch this video."
agreed
I think another interesting idea for a video would be "Calculating the real cost of a card" including mana cost, tempo cost, vulnerability cost (Dies to all removal with no upside, etc) and things like card advantage etc. Just an idea!
Little wrong with the order of putting the spell on the stack. Paying for the spell is the last thing you do and announcing the spell is the first thing you do. -- Love the content though bro keep up the good work!
The player announces that he or she is casting the spell.
If the spell is modal the player announces the mode choice
The player announces his or her choice of an appropriate player, object, or zone for each target the spell requires. A spell may require some targets only if an alternative or additional cost (such as a buyback or kicker cost)
If the spell requires the player to divide or distribute an effect (such as damage or counters) among one or more targets, the player announces the division.
The player determines the total cost of the spell.
If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to activate mana abilities (see rule 605, "Mana Abilities").
The player pays the total cost in any order. Partial payments are not allowed.
You never mentioned how lands have a CMC of 0, however they are not spells ofc. But because of that you can grab a land from graveyard using Seasons Past.
So, say I play goblin warchief followed by reckless bushwacker. Would I only have to pay the one red mana or the whole surge cost?
Still waiting for a Glimpse the Unthinkable reprint...
Des
At 5:30 you state that CMC refers to the printed value which is why cards like inquisition and mindbender use that specific wording when talking about cards in hand.
So wouldnt void winnower prevent the casting of endless one no matter what the stated value of X is because endless ones cmc is 0 (as printed)
He's a little wrong when talking about what is CMC, see rule 202.3b "When calculating the converted mana cost of an object with {X} in its mana cost, X is treated as 0 while the object is not on the stack, and X is treated as the number chosen for it while the object is on the stack."
He has the gist correct, except that a spells converted mana cost is whatever the amount paid is including X while the spell is on the stack. Additionally Void Winnower only checks the converted mana costs of spells and not cards, which I know seems the same thing, but it's not otherwise Void Winnower would also prevent lands from coming into play. A spell is only a spell while it's on the stack, and if Endless One goes on the stack with a CMC of 5, the Void Winnower doesn't care about it being cast. Then once on the field it becomes a 0 CMC creature which also gains the partial unblockable clause.
That's a good explanation. I understand now.
The only point I think you got wrong, though, is that void winnower couldn't prevent lands from entering the battlefield regardless of if it checked cmc in hand or cmc on stack because lands aren't casted
That's kind of the point I was trying to make. If it said you can't play cards with an even converted mana cost, you'd never be able to play your Endless One. Lands, because of clash effects, do have a CMC of 0, which would mean that if Void Winnower were printed to say you can't play cards with even CMC, then you couldn't play lands.
Probably strayed a little off topic there, but basically was trying to point out the distinction between the term card and the term spell as well as explain why it would check spell verses card since checking card would make the card game-breakingly powerful.
One of my friends always forgets about the legend rule, so I always laugh, when he plays the second one and has to sacrifice one of them.
I use to have a deck that abused the legend rule like a redheaded step child. lol, small of easy dreadge/ reanimator style deck with Mr. Kokusho, the Evening Star as my abused legendary creature.
I'm still eager to hear a mathematical analysis of the negligible impact of playing an additional basic land to make a 61 card deck along the same vein as your old hypergeometric distribution video.
So if I use pyromasters goggles on an avacyn's judgment that has its madness cost triggered and I pay 5 mana and use the goggles for the 1 red mana, does the copy of avacyn's judgment deal 0 damage due to it being a copy and its cmc is X so then X=0 is that correct?
So Cyclonic Rift has a CMC of 2 even though you cast it for it's Overload cost?
yes, Alternative mana costs do not change converted mana costs
yes, you can Mana leak
+Chang Musty thanks for clearing it up :)
+Gavin Carpenter You can mana leak any card that doesn't have split second.
+Joe Harvey Meant spell snare. Sorry, don't play blue
I feel like most of this stuff in magic is actually quite logical, when you realize you would have to remember the converted mana cost of the Endless One (if something moves +1/+1 counters you could forget the original value for X) It's just like damage resetting at the end of turn. Just imagine 8 player commander games where damage persists...
If i see that shit going on at my lgs I step in, no cheating. Understanding the rules makes for a better player I think. I like educating others as well, props.
well that was quick for part 2
About the Void Winnower and the Endless One, is it that you try to put on the stack that X is worth 5 but can't because Void is there ?
Basically, when you announce that X will be 5, while casting that becomes the mana cost. This allows you to play Endless one. When it lands on the field of play, its cost returns to 0. Being an even cost, it can't block while Void Winnower is in play. Hope that cleared thing up :D
Is this whole Series going up tonight or what? Lol
Not on my internet connection it's not
What about reducing the cost of X spells?
How about damage. In my playgroup people don't understand that if I cast the new ulamog and they use pepper smoke on it then block it with something big it dosent die as a state based action for having -1 toughness. The pepper smoke makes it a 9/9 with indestructible so the extra combat Damage dosent kill it (because it dosent lower the toughness of a card).
Woa there, two des videos in one hour? What a day
I believe that the official ruling on x is that for void winnower x=0, so fireball would be OK, endless one isn't.
So, I didn't get it. If you delved Murderous Cut the converted mana cost DOES become even and therefore negated by Void Winnower?
Nope, only with X
no, delve just changes what you pay the mana cost with. It doesn't change the converted mana costs of spells
No, the CMC stays the same. You just payed 1 colourless mana in a different way (by exiling a card).
So you can delve Murderous Cut to kill Void Winnower.
it's actually quite easy. mana cost is the printed Value on the card (only in the top right. alt costs just give a different way to put it on the stack), and CMC is just total cost, disregarding color. Not sure about the thing on X being whatever you pay while on the stack, since it changes from a card to a spell, but I'm quite certain X is always 0 when calculating CMC (maybe not for normal cost). I think your problem here is you need to realize the difference between a cards mana cost/CMC and the amount of mana you pay. Gitaxian Probe doesn't have a CMC of 2 life cause that would be dumb.
So how does something like syncopate work with something like Baral that says spells cost 1 less to cast? If I pump 4 in to syncopate would the opponent have to pay 5 to let the spell go through?
baral's reduction effect adds one generic mana to the spell in the case of an "x" spell
anything that reduces cost by generic mana would add one to the X cost of an X spell, which is why Niv Mizzex of the izmagus is such a good commander for X cost spells...
Well, I once countered a creature and they used a spell to make it indestructible as an anti-counter XD We had a massive argument.
Could you include the text of the rules in the description of the video, this doesn't show who i'm arguing with why X is whatever you say it is when cast, instead of 0 like it normally is.
you said "conveverted mana cost is the cost as printed on the card".doest that mean that 'void winnower' forbids to cast 'endless one' no matter what you choose the X to be .?.
nevermind. i checked the actual ruling, it clearly says that you can cast endless one for odd numbers.
gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=402093
I like these, keep them coming!
The Delve mechanic is much similar to convoke, it pays for mana from the spell from other effects.
So much alternative cost, damn boy what a breath.
insanity of alternative costs starts at 9:00
token rules about token copied creatures said they have mana cost of the original i think(i dont knwo for sure)
You are right. Copies of creatures have the CMC of the original, while other tokens have a CMC of 0.
What if you evoke it? Ex: Mulldrifter
it's mana cost is still only it's converted, so if it cost 4 to cast it, and it's Converted mana cost is 5 you could still cast it against void winnower
That also applies to anything you can cast for free, as long as it's converted mana cost is not even or zero you can cast it against void winnower
Good video, but remember that now there is a difference between costing extra Generic and costing ekstra colourless (For vryn wingmare)
an example i would want explained would be reaper king 's cost why it is 10 and not 5 or some other comvo between
woot coconut brigade! So I will assume (yep yep, I know what I get when I assume.) a cost reduction is like a "pass" like the reverse example of Judge's Familiar.
actually i think you've made a mistake there:
in your example void winnower / endless one you say you could cast it for 19, 17 and so on as long as it's not even. if I'm not mistaken void winnower referring to an even cmc means you can't cast the endless one in any situation because it's cmc is always zero even if you say x is 9999. correct me if I'm wrong though.
Void winnower (silently and only in the rulings) refers to the spell's cost on the stack, not the card's converted mana cost. That's stupid because you can't even start casting the spell if it "would be" even so basically referring to the card while it's still in your hand but really it means on the stack as a spell. But trust me, you absolutely can cast endless one for an odd number while void is out. I've done it online.
It has to do with the wording. There is a difference between play and cast. Winnower uses "Cast" which means that even CMC cards can enter the spell proposition stage but cannot be cast with even converted mana costs. This allows cards like endless one to be cast for odd numbers and still prevents Mistcutter Hydra from being cast at even numbers.
If it said cannot "Play" cards with even CMC than that would shut down endless one permanently. This would also shut down the ability to play any lands too so that would really kill the game.
+Damain XI as far as i know lands are not considered spells. the wording on the card is just really confusing because even though it saying cmc it doesn't seem to be refering to the cmc but rather the mana cost which is a bit odd to me
Khaos It is still not referring to the mana cost because then alternate costs and cost reductions would apply, further confusing the situation. spells and abilities that care about CMC at cast has been done before with disdainful stroke, the only real difference is that this is a static effect and disdainful stroke is a stack effect.
As for lands you are right they are not spells, but play is game state anyway. MTG will never print anything that alters the game state level so the idea that void winnower affects what players can and cannot play would not be a possible situation in the first place.
Correction: They do not like that alter game state level rules although cards do exist that do and they do reprint them. That being said it is still highly unlikely that they will print cards in the future that would be similar to void winnower that use the word "play cards" rather that "cast spell"
I think i pulled 5 void winnowers in zendikar looking for an expedition land... I didnt get one...
morphs have CMC of 0
I forgot to mention that :( it was in the script and everything
Huh, I would have thought it was three, because all face down cards went out for 3.
How can you tell if a morph is even for void winower?
Even though you're casting it for 3, the cost on the front side of the card is the cost of the spell since morph is an alternative cost but once it hits the field face down, it's ALWAYS zero until it flips.
Do deathtouch with multiple blockers. Had to look this up in the middle of a game once.
the best thing i've seen so far is tapping elvish mystics to put a forest onto the battlefield^^'
this was very helpful thank you so much
He guarantees it, just like he guaranteed tree of perdition would be 25, 30 dollars
Oh, I thought this video was gonna be covering the cards that don't add up logically.
You know, like 3 Bee Stings = A Lightning Bolt and 15 Spiders can defeat Emrakul.
huh. actually learned something. i thought kicker modified the cost
can i point out who ever made void wins and stupid for a number to be even it Must be divisible by 2( ie be a whole number when divided) 0 is not
0÷2=0 where is the problem?
0 it self is not a whole number its a place holder
+Shane Klein it is a whole number. also zero is mathematically even.
I need to add, that Trinisphere beats Omniscience.
Liked for the "...you are a coconut". Lulz
I like to think abut it as 0 cost 1 multikicker
Still waiting for a Glimpse the Unthinkable reprint...#mill
The coconut's final fate in the afore-mentioned video :P :P :P
ua-cam.com/video/qRGnvszqN_8/v-deo.html
Are we related o.O
So many Eldrazi Mimic Misplays....
thankyou this is amazing
you cant cast a endless one through void winnower.... CMC....
Yes you can. Try it online. X just has to be odd.
hmmm, does that also count through things like Izmagus though? making things cheaper to cast on an X spell adds to it's X count so could that make the cost even even if you declared it to be a certain value?
"You're a coconut"
you forgot spinning darkness
0 is not odd or even
huh. actually learned something. i thought kicker modified the cost
Still waiting for a Glimpse the Unthinkable reprint...#mill