I just started flying as a student pilot February 2022... training in a Cessna 172. I picked up a 1963 Musketeer Model 23 with the 160hp Lycoming in March 2022, so I would learn in the plane I would fly after I earn my private pilot's licesnse. I prefer the Musketeer over the Cessna for so many reasons. It's easier to fly with the rudder linked to the aileron to automate banks and turns. It;s quieter inside. The interior is as wide as a Cessna 182, which is very nice. The wider gear makes crosswind landings a piece of cake. The thicker doors have a nice thud when they close. The trim wheel is right next to my hip and very convenient.
Hey Tim, that's awesome. I totally agree on the build quality - Beechcraft planes are just so over-engineered, it's awesome. I'm surprised you find the Musketeer quieter than a 172, though, that hasn't been my experience with my Sierra - it's quite loud inside. I wonder if it's just a result of the larger engine in the Sierra.
When I was 15, in 1965, my dad came home one day with a pile of Beech leaflets and told me “could you do a study and choose which one would be good for me to buy?”. We were in Saigon, at the beginning of the Vietnam war. I was too stupid to understand my dad was joking, so I did a serious comparaison between the Musketeer, the Bonanza, the Queen Air and the King Air. I decided that the Musketeer would be the most reasonable for us to own and fly. Fast forward, 2023, I own and fly a Mooney Ovation. You can never predict what can happen when you give a kid something to dream of. 😍 Thanks for this video. You’re bringing me back 60 years.1️⃣👍👏
Other key point, when you sit in the pilot seat, the wing is placed aft of the pilot. You are able to look straight down at the ground unobstructed! I love that!
The fact that I laughed at your 3 musketeers joke will leave me reevaluating my life. 😁 Thank you for this review. I've been seriously considering a Sundowner.
Great video as always Mark. They are strong airplanes as well. There are several models of the Musketeer and Sundowner that are certified for aerobatics, like the A150 Cessna. I've flown a Sundowner, and they are nice solid feeling aircraft. To me, you can tell they are Beechcraft products.
What a delightful series of airplanes. I’ve never had the pleasure of flying them but we have a pair of them at the aircraft maintenance program where I started my career and later taught maintenance. These would seem to be ideal training/family aircraft. Only a few knots slower than a Cherokee but much more comfortable. I’d love to instruct in one, especially on the busy days when it’s one student after another. Two doors for the win. I wonder why they were’t more popular when they were new.
Great video Mark! We love the Sundowner. It's used as a commute to work resource. I seem to remember the broker mentioning that he was throwing in the second door for free! ;-)
I bought my '65 A23A Musketeer for commuting too. It was a perfect plane for the mission. It cut a two-and-a-half-hour backcountry highway drive down to 45 minutes of straight-line cruising. I even flew it from Anchorage, AK to Rhode Island (50hrs flying vs 100hrs driving). As an A&P/owner, I especially appreciated it for how maintainability was designed into almost every aspect of the plane.
Back in 1975 as a high school kid I worked a a Beech Craft dealer as a ramper with a private Pilot Certificate, I rented both the C23 and the C24R at a reasonable rate back then for a new airplane!
Years ago we had an early (1963) Musketeer, 160 hp engine, only one door. The interesting quirk was that it had a gear handle and even a warning horn if speed was slowed and handle was in the up position, even though the gear was fixed. It was a good match for a family with two children flying recreationally out of Boise, Idaho. It didn't have the best high altitude or short field performance, but we learned to use some Idaho backcountry strips and explored a lot of country for a reasonable price. Thanks for sparking the memory with your video.
@@skywagonuniversity5023 I'm sure it was a training component. Our generation of Musketeer was definitely designed as a basic trainer with the expectation of inspiring a desire for a bonanza in students.
Hi cobber , love that sundowner .. I rebuilt an engine in one and then flew it from Oregon to Van nuys my longest cross country and first and only night landing !! Nice plane .
Very good video, Thanks for this Review... The Sundowner and the Sierra are 2 of the best planes around, especially for trainers and they are very reliable planes if you take care of them.
Nice table top upper instrument panel…….nice and friendly for night VFR attitude maintenance. I got my PPL in a little Mouse - April 1963. In 1995 I got to fly a Warrior II and couldn’t believe just how much quicker it climbed with the taper wing development.
Thanks Mark. Excellent as always. I rented a Sundowner as a PPL. Later instructed in a Sierra. You hit all the good points. As a “large American “ I love the room.
There is an interconnect between the rudder and ailerons. Helps keep the turns coordinated. The ailerons don’t slap around in the wind on the ramp if tied down. Also love the fact that there is real nosewheel steering using the rudder pedals
That is an A24R or a very early B24R. The baggage door on the majority of Sierras is on the other side of the Fuse and it is a full man-size door. Probably one of the most notable features of the Sierra when compared to other brands.
Years ago I was pondering Sierra's as a possible next step from my 172. The door on each side and the roominess of the cabin, and although they are a little slower than an Arrow or a 182, the Beech quality/sturdiness was appealing. A buddy of mine ended up getting a great deal on little Musky (2 seaters) and he gave me a ride once. To me, it felt like the yokes were just too low, if pulled back they touched my legs. It was odd to me as the Pipers and Cessnas and Bonanzas I'd been in wasn't like that. Because relatively few were ever made, and several sources told me because of the rarety and that it was Beech, it was fairly expensive for parts, so I dismissed pursuing any. I do think they are nice-looking planes though!
I trained in pipers and 100% prefer the way that this line of aircraft sits. More like getting into a comfortable car than some uncomfortable metal tube.
Love your videos. The inherent suppleness and directional stability of trailing link gear and the wide stance are big positives in my mind. Love these two.
3:56 LOL That was so funny!! 😂 The first aircraft I ever flew was a '69 Musketeer. Fixed gear. Brings back sweet memories. That was... 16 year ago. That led to a great interest in flying till I got my PPL in early '15.
Eric Stoltz in his comment does a good job summarizing the Musketeer variants and their model numbers. I've owned a Musketeer Sport 180 for about a year and a half and it's a great plane. Mine is a "Sport 180" because it's one of eighteen (I think) Sports that were originally purchased by the University of Illinois for their flight and mechanic training programs. Without going into great detail, they were sent back to the factory where the 150hp Lycoming O-320 engines were replaced with 180hp O-360 engines. On the type certificate, these planes are specifically called out as subject to the same operating limits as a C23 Sundowner. Mine even has a baggage door that was installed by a previous owner, who also installed a hat shelf. The seats were replaced with those from a Sierra. It is, for all practical purposes, a Sundowner. The only real difference is that it has only two windows on each side instead of three.
I got my PPL at the U of I in 1976, and later became a controller at their tower/tracing. There were 19 Beech “Sports” (BE-19), N5101R thru N5119R, and you’re right about the engine swap from 150->180 HP. There was an additional mod made to meet the University’s requirements: a panel was added from the top of the fuselage to the leading edge of the vertical stabilizer, providing more stability during SPIN RECOVERY training. They were certified to allow for 1 1/2 spin rotations in the unusual attitude portion of training. To go all-out spinning, one had to go out in one of the two Aeronca Champs, or the Boeing Stearman. Great trainers, the “Sport”s, as was described. Feel like I could still fly one in my sleep after almost 50 years.
@@seannyo48 Yep, mine is N5113R. I'm not sure what you're referring to about the panel on the top. As far as I know, my plane is standard when it comes to the vertical stabilizer and the dorsal extension that extends in front of it partway along the fuselage. Some Musketeers have a vent on the left side of that extension, but mine doesn't. What my plane does have is the so-called "spin kit" where there are pointy forward protrusions from the front of the horizontal stabilator next to the fuselage, and a ventral fin on the underside of the tail. From what I understand, the complete spin kit also includes strakes on the cowl but mine doesn't have those. It also has madras droop wing tips, but I'm pretty sure those were installed after it left the University.
Great video! Nice to see these planes getting some attention, they really are terrific. I have a Sierra, and there are some differences even between the Sierras that weren’t mentioned here. I believe all the “C” models of the Sierra also came with a large baggage door on the left side along with an optional third row bench seat. The accessibility into the back of the cabin is second to none in the class - I’ve put two full sized bicycles in through that door. These are great planes for weekends away.
Later model Sundowners (year???) have the cargo door on the LEFT side, and the Sierras have a larger ENTRY door on the left side for the optional 5th and 6th (kiddie) seats.
Also there is a 200hp Super Musketeer. And you can have 2 rear jump seats in a Sierra for a total of 6 seats, I know it’s little crazy. Good job Mark. I enjoy the series.
@@jonasbaine3538I loved my Musketeer, but it makes the plane unpleasant and frankly boring to fly. The most prominent thing that I recall is that slipping feels very clumsy and requires inordinately heavy control inputs since the pilot is stretching a bungee in order to "cross" the controls.
@@LittleManFlying I see. I'm not sure of any very exciting certified lower power 4 seater planes from that time period. I recall flying an m20j with nice sporty heavy control feel. Maybe an m20c has more natural control feel.
@@jonasbaine3538 Actually, most M-20-Cs had a full-time pneumatic wing leveler "positive control" system that makes it intentionally ponderous in roll unless the system is defeated, either by the button on the yoke or with some semi-permanent method of turning off the system. There's a nice video that details this system on Skywagon's UA-cam channel. The Beech "Aero Club" line was designed for extreme docility as a smooth stepping stone pathway to Bonanzas and beyond.
I always list my Sundowner as a "BE-23" in my log book. I looked it up a long time ago, but can't remember right off what the difference is between the C23, and BE23 though. Mine does have electric flaps, electric trim, different panel format, and throttle handle quadrant rather than vernier / push pull. Perhaps those differences change the designation.
You mentioned the slightly higher weight and solid build. Then you report how firmly it flys. That put me in mind reports of LSAs and how they are just the opposite and kind of tiring to fly even in light turbulence. I’d much rather own a used Sundowner than an expensive LSA⁉️😉
When the Sierra landing gear is extended the front wheel rotates from the storage to the landing orientation. The rotation can cause a momentary bit of turbulence that is noticeable but not a problem at all. I just thought I'd mention this quirk.
Thank you once again for this,, I find the beech line to be very rare in appearance in my neighborhood..had always wondered about there similarity to the piper, cessnas.. Just a question,, are u very comfortable in hopping in these various types of aircraft for each video? U certainly seem to be..
We currrently have a 1966 A23-19 also know as the Musketeer Sport. The big difference in the sport model is it is a O-320 150 HP. A total joy in the air, a hog on the runway, make sure you put it all in front of you. That said it is a very nice starter if you have at least 3k strip
I had a 74 Sport with Demmer wing tips and VGs would land at 47 mph ! And a much shorter take of run! Made it a very safe plane! Also speed mods got to 115ks cruise! It was common on approach 450 fpm descent to see 140kts!!
Good morning Is it possible to do a detailed comparison between the Beach Craft Sierra and the Piper Arrow 180, to include wing spar design, performance, safety features, maintenance cost, and cross country capabilities. Thanks
Not to mention that if in a crash, (God forbid) that second door could be a life saver. If you have only one and it's blocked. Well, lets hope she don't catch on fire.
Depends on your age... I have a Sierra and if I was over 70, I would want the 177. The 177 is super comfortable and the easiest GA airplane to enter and exit.
Hi. Good video. Is it possible for you to elaborate mor on the Beach Sundowner and Seria wing design. I am interested in a low wing aircraft but i am concern about the wing design and related problems like the piper Cherokee series aircraft. May i make a suggestion? In your future reviews, can you include aircraft wing construction. Thanks
I am looking forward to your next video. PS: last night i saw you have the same aircraft listed on trader plane and on Controller. One listing titled as a musketeer C-24R The other titled Sierra C-24R What is the difference???
Well, isn’t it the better Piper actually? Why did Piper succeed so much and Beech didn’t? Only of this bit of speed? I can not follow this. Was there maybe also a major different in pricing far back, when they where new? To me the Beeches make a lot of sense. Solid, roomy, reliable and good looking. Easy to fly. What stopped this from huge success like Piper went through? Interesting story. Good review and video. Thanks.
Same price per hour. Pipers and Cezznahs seem to cost about 20% more, and up. Occasionally parts are hard to find for the airframe. But owner supplied parts are saving the fleet. www.beechaeroclub.com for more! Wee keep them flying!
@@skywagonuniversity5023what would you think a fair value for one is. Say 4K-5k TT and SMOH 500-1200 range. Seen a few listed and wondering in this market what’s fair to offer. Ready to pull the trigger on one.
How do they ferry these single engine piston airplanes from US to Australia? Which route are they following? Don’t tell me they ship them with FedEx or UPS🙃
They fly to Australia from the US West Coast with a LOT of extra fuel and very very overweight to Maui, then Guam, then Fiji, then East Coast Australia. 2000 miles legs. UHF radio. etc. Or for a quarter of the price of that, they can be put in a shipping container with the wings off and send them on a boat port to port.
Thanks, Kudos to the ferry pilot on a 3000 miles trip from California coast to Maui in a tin can with propeller over vast Pacific Ocean. That airplane is definitely a testimonial of engineering marvel.
@@dtsh4451 I sent a 182 Turbo RG from Oakland to Sydney with all those stops across the pacific. It was 1056 Lbs Overweight when it took off each time. Full of fuel with tanks in the cabin and an oiler so you could squirt oil into the running engine every now and then. Also a Mooney Ovation went to Perth.
@@skywagonuniversity5023 1056 Lbs overweight on a 3000 Lbs empty airplane🥶. it never bothered you that was probably completely off the weight &balance chart when you loaded the airplane 🤣? You must have brass balls to fly that airplane！please make some videos next time on your ferry trip from US to Australia!
What Eric is referring to is called the Musketeer Super III. Although it has the same airframe as the regular Musketeer and the Sundowner, there is no STC that allows upgrading the engine on one of those. There have been some Sports that have been upgraded from the O-320 to an O-360, but those are special cases. I own one of those planes and a previous owner installed a baggage door and finished out the baggage compartment with a hat shelf. The only practical difference between my plane and a Sundowner is that mine has only two windows on each side instead of three.
A suggestion from an actual Sierra owner, fly both planes or all planes you show in a video. I own a 75 BE24. My plane is a bit different than your model, I think you have an A model where mine is a B model. I can tell your baggage door is smaller and on the passenger's side where mine is much taller and on the pilot's side. My throttles are on a middle box with throttle handles like a Cherokee where yours's is on a stick to push in and out. I bought mine in 2020 and have already put well over 200 hours on it. I will tell you compared to a Cherokee they land much harder and will bounce if you are even a bit too fast vs the Cherokee with the shocks. They are also very nose heavy so many guys toss weights in the back to give them a better cg. I have flown mine from Florida where I am based in Kissimmee to Wisconsin, Missouri, Illinois and Indiana several times. As long as you aren't in any turbulence you can generally sit back, kick on the auto pilot and relax with plenty of room to spare!! Keep on flying and remember, fly all planes you showcase in your videos, viewers will want to see that!
I fly the ones I own and the ones that owners say I can fly. I do not fly the ones that the owners do not want flown while they are here or ones that are not insured for me. I flew the Sundowner because I own it and it is 97% A Sierra.
@@skywagonuniversity5023 Then try this as a suggestion. Fly with the owner and talk about the planes. That way he is there for insurance reasons and go from there. I just see it like a car channel saying look at these 2 cars and then never drive them. I hope it helps grow the channel for ya!
While we appreciate the suggestion, the owner may be geographically dislocated from us and unavailable. Often, we have a ferry pilot bring us the plane, because the owner doesn't want to (for a myriad of reasons).
I like the Muskateer series because I do not like the way the Pipers "squat" The Sundowner and Sierra stand nice and tall. If I were in the market for my first plane, the Sundowner would be perfect!
I have quite a few hours in these birds. Even have a few videos public. Mine is for sale. www.beechaeroclub.com for more! Here's the lineup of the baby beechs, or Mice (Meeses?): Musketeer (23, A23 A23A) O320 O-346 Sport/Musketeer ( A23-29, 19A, M19A, B19) O320 Supper III (A23-24, A24) IO360 Custom/Sundowner (B23, C23) Sierra 200 (A24R, B24R, C24R) I think I got them all. BAC guys fix it if it broke! Some are aerobatic!
I love the original 1963 Model 23. It has the 160hp Lycoming O320-D2B. It has a baggage compartment with exterior door, burns about 8.3 gph for a very long cruise range. It had no black scat issues that caused corrosion on the later models. Also, the early models only had one entry door and early fuselage used what they called “slab” construction. They were more flat on the side of the cabin. The later models had a more rounded fuselage and two entry doors. The real sleeper of the group is the Super III. If you have one of those with two doors and variable pitch prop, you have an aircraft with one of the highest useful loads in its class.
I just started flying as a student pilot February 2022... training in a Cessna 172. I picked up a 1963 Musketeer Model 23 with the 160hp Lycoming in March 2022, so I would learn in the plane I would fly after I earn my private pilot's licesnse. I prefer the Musketeer over the Cessna for so many reasons. It's easier to fly with the rudder linked to the aileron to automate banks and turns. It;s quieter inside. The interior is as wide as a Cessna 182, which is very nice. The wider gear makes crosswind landings a piece of cake. The thicker doors have a nice thud when they close. The trim wheel is right next to my hip and very convenient.
Great first hand info.
Hey Tim, that's awesome. I totally agree on the build quality - Beechcraft planes are just so over-engineered, it's awesome. I'm surprised you find the Musketeer quieter than a 172, though, that hasn't been my experience with my Sierra - it's quite loud inside. I wonder if it's just a result of the larger engine in the Sierra.
When I was 15, in 1965, my dad came home one day with a pile of Beech leaflets and told me “could you do a study and choose which one would be good for me to buy?”. We were in Saigon, at the beginning of the Vietnam war. I was too stupid to understand my dad was joking, so I did a serious comparaison between the Musketeer, the Bonanza, the Queen Air and the King Air. I decided that the Musketeer would be the most reasonable for us to own and fly.
Fast forward, 2023, I own and fly a Mooney Ovation. You can never predict what can happen when you give a kid something to dream of. 😍
Thanks for this video. You’re bringing me back 60 years.1️⃣👍👏
If you imagine it and believe it, it will happen.
That's awesome! Thanks for sharing that story.
Other key point, when you sit in the pilot seat, the wing is placed aft of the pilot. You are able to look straight down at the ground unobstructed! I love that!
Good points, James.
The two front doors are THE interesting feature! Excellent Review :) Thank you!
Glad you like them!
The fact that I laughed at your 3 musketeers joke will leave me reevaluating my life. 😁 Thank you for this review. I've been seriously considering a Sundowner.
It's OK to be easily amused.........
The Sundowner & Sierra are fantastic aeroplanes. Built like tanks & very stable and forgiving. A joy to fly.
Really love the Sierra! Always been a fan of the Beechcraft Musketeer Series. Great video, sir. Thank you.
Can't wait for the next.
Very informative Mark.. I like that you research the aircraft, then tell the story. Easy and enjoyable education for the pilot in all of us.
Love these videos - glad to see you sporting the Leatherman and thanks once again for taking one for the team, groveling around under the wings..!
Glad you like them!
Great video as always Mark. They are strong airplanes as well. There are several models of the Musketeer and Sundowner that are certified for aerobatics, like the A150 Cessna. I've flown a Sundowner, and they are nice solid feeling aircraft. To me, you can tell they are Beechcraft products.
As usual very informative 👍🙂
What a delightful series of airplanes. I’ve never had the pleasure of flying them but we have a pair of them at the aircraft maintenance program where I started my career and later taught maintenance. These would seem to be ideal training/family aircraft. Only a few knots slower than a Cherokee but much more comfortable. I’d love to instruct in one, especially on the busy days when it’s one student after another. Two doors for the win. I wonder why they were’t more popular when they were new.
Great video Mark! We love the Sundowner. It's used as a commute to work resource. I seem to remember the broker mentioning that he was throwing in the second door for free! ;-)
I bought my '65 A23A Musketeer for commuting too. It was a perfect plane for the mission. It cut a two-and-a-half-hour backcountry highway drive down to 45 minutes of straight-line cruising. I even flew it from Anchorage, AK to Rhode Island (50hrs flying vs 100hrs driving). As an A&P/owner, I especially appreciated it for how maintainability was designed into almost every aspect of the plane.
Back in 1975 as a high school kid I worked a a Beech Craft dealer as a ramper with a private Pilot Certificate, I rented both the C23 and the C24R at a reasonable rate back then for a new airplane!
I've watched some of your videos, and right, or wrong, your knowledge about the airplanes you portrait is astonishing. Thanks.
Thanks.
Years ago we had an early (1963) Musketeer, 160 hp engine, only one door. The interesting quirk was that it had a gear handle and even a warning horn if speed was slowed and handle was in the up position, even though the gear was fixed. It was a good match for a family with two children flying recreationally out of Boise, Idaho. It didn't have the best high altitude or short field performance, but we learned to use some Idaho backcountry strips and explored a lot of country for a reasonable price. Thanks for sparking the memory with your video.
That is an odd configuration for a fixed gear aircraft. Do you think it was to "train" pilots into putting the gear down even though it already was?
@@skywagonuniversity5023 I'm sure it was a training component. Our generation of Musketeer was definitely designed as a basic trainer with the expectation of inspiring a desire for a bonanza in students.
Hi cobber , love that sundowner .. I rebuilt an engine in one and then flew it from Oregon to Van nuys my longest cross country and first and only night landing !! Nice plane .
1980 i flew the Sundowner ... yeap great memories of a near perfect (my view of it) airplane. Nice review, thank you.
Surely you can get your hands on one of the aerobatic versions! Top video yet again!
Terrific introduction to the Musketeer.
Loved the drone track of the takeoff and landing. Brilliant!
Thanks John! We are glad you liked it!
Very good video, Thanks for this Review... The Sundowner and the Sierra are 2 of the best planes around, especially for trainers and they are very reliable planes if you take care of them.
Nice table top upper instrument panel…….nice and friendly for night VFR attitude maintenance.
I got my PPL in a little Mouse - April 1963. In 1995 I got to fly a Warrior II and couldn’t believe just how much quicker it climbed with the taper wing development.
Soloed in Musketeer 23-19 Sport flew the Sierra for long cross countries after I got my private. I love these series of aircraft.
Thanks Mark. Excellent as always. I rented a Sundowner as a PPL. Later instructed in a Sierra. You hit all the good points. As a “large American “ I love the room.
Hey! I resemble that remark! And that's why I have a B24R
After owning a nice Sundowner for 5 years, you hit all the high points right on. Well done.
Thank you kindly!
Very good video.
There is an interconnect between the rudder and ailerons. Helps keep the turns coordinated. The ailerons don’t slap around in the wind on the ramp if tied down. Also love the fact that there is real nosewheel steering using the rudder pedals
That is an A24R or a very early B24R. The baggage door on the majority of Sierras is on the other side of the Fuse and it is a full man-size door. Probably one of the most notable features of the Sierra when compared to other brands.
Years ago I was pondering Sierra's as a possible next step from my 172. The door on each side and the roominess of the cabin, and although they are a little slower than an Arrow or a 182, the Beech quality/sturdiness was appealing. A buddy of mine ended up getting a great deal on little Musky (2 seaters) and he gave me a ride once. To me, it felt like the yokes were just too low, if pulled back they touched my legs. It was odd to me as the Pipers and Cessnas and Bonanzas I'd been in wasn't like that. Because relatively few were ever made, and several sources told me because of the rarety and that it was Beech, it was fairly expensive for parts, so I dismissed pursuing any. I do think they are nice-looking planes though!
I trained in pipers and 100% prefer the way that this line of aircraft sits. More like getting into a comfortable car than some uncomfortable metal tube.
Love your videos. The inherent suppleness and directional stability of trailing link gear and the wide stance are big positives in my mind. Love these two.
3:56 LOL That was so funny!! 😂 The first aircraft I ever flew was a '69 Musketeer. Fixed gear. Brings back sweet memories.
That was... 16 year ago. That led to a great interest in flying till I got my PPL in early '15.
Glad you enjoyed it
Thanks for clarifying that the videos flatten the look of the approach. I've been scootching down in my chair for a reason!😎
No matter how high I am, It looks flat.
Great Mark...always learn something. I can say one thing though..the knee action gear is called trailing link suspension.
Thanks. I have to appeal to a global audience.
Eric Stoltz in his comment does a good job summarizing the Musketeer variants and their model numbers.
I've owned a Musketeer Sport 180 for about a year and a half and it's a great plane. Mine is a "Sport 180" because it's one of eighteen (I think) Sports that were originally purchased by the University of Illinois for their flight and mechanic training programs. Without going into great detail, they were sent back to the factory where the 150hp Lycoming O-320 engines were replaced with 180hp O-360 engines. On the type certificate, these planes are specifically called out as subject to the same operating limits as a C23 Sundowner. Mine even has a baggage door that was installed by a previous owner, who also installed a hat shelf. The seats were replaced with those from a Sierra. It is, for all practical purposes, a Sundowner. The only real difference is that it has only two windows on each side instead of three.
I got my PPL at the U of I in 1976, and later became a controller at their tower/tracing. There were 19 Beech “Sports” (BE-19), N5101R thru N5119R, and you’re right about the engine swap from 150->180 HP. There was an additional mod made to meet the University’s requirements: a panel was added from the top of the fuselage to the leading edge of the vertical stabilizer, providing more stability during SPIN RECOVERY training. They were certified to allow for 1 1/2 spin rotations in the unusual attitude portion of training. To go all-out spinning, one had to go out in one of the two Aeronca Champs, or the Boeing Stearman.
Great trainers, the “Sport”s, as was described. Feel like I could still fly one in my sleep after almost 50 years.
@@seannyo48 Yep, mine is N5113R. I'm not sure what you're referring to about the panel on the top. As far as I know, my plane is standard when it comes to the vertical stabilizer and the dorsal extension that extends in front of it partway along the fuselage. Some Musketeers have a vent on the left side of that extension, but mine doesn't. What my plane does have is the so-called "spin kit" where there are pointy forward protrusions from the front of the horizontal stabilator next to the fuselage, and a ventral fin on the underside of the tail. From what I understand, the complete spin kit also includes strakes on the cowl but mine doesn't have those. It also has madras droop wing tips, but I'm pretty sure those were installed after it left the University.
Great video! Nice to see these planes getting some attention, they really are terrific. I have a Sierra, and there are some differences even between the Sierras that weren’t mentioned here. I believe all the “C” models of the Sierra also came with a large baggage door on the left side along with an optional third row bench seat. The accessibility into the back of the cabin is second to none in the class - I’ve put two full sized bicycles in through that door. These are great planes for weekends away.
The B model also has the man-sized door in the back.
@@cmmguy99 Yeah, I think they added it sometime in the middle of the B run, right? Or was it in the middle of the A run?
Thanks for the great video and introduction to the Beech.
You are welcome, Matthew!
@@skywagonuniversity5023 Is the Sierra still for sale?
@@sidblephneiben Yes, it is.
Beechcraft always seem solid, well built, steady performers with that extra mile of comfort and convenience. Thanks for sharing 👍✌️😊💜
It's like flying your sofa across the country.
@@skywagonuniversity5023 LOL
I couldn't agree more - they really are so well built, and it's such a stable flyer.
Love your story about the single door. LoL. The Sierra is bulletproof.
Good info! Good to see 2 door low wing choices out there. The one door thing makes me claustrophobic lol
That sierra nose gear is pretty neat! Sorta like a vought corsair main gear!!
Later model Sundowners (year???) have the cargo door on the LEFT side, and the Sierras have a larger ENTRY door on the left side for the optional 5th and 6th (kiddie) seats.
Also there is a 200hp Super Musketeer. And you can have 2 rear jump seats in a Sierra for a total of 6 seats, I know it’s little crazy. Good job Mark. I enjoy the series.
The Super is a pretty rare bird but probably the fasted of the Musketeers(even with fixed gear)
"Ailerons are self-centering." That rudder aileron bungee interconnect was the one thing that I could never quite forgive about my A23A Musketeer.
what issues does it cause?
@@jonasbaine3538I loved my Musketeer, but it makes the plane unpleasant and frankly boring to fly. The most prominent thing that I recall is that slipping feels very clumsy and requires inordinately heavy control inputs since the pilot is stretching a bungee in order to "cross" the controls.
@@LittleManFlying I see. I'm not sure of any very exciting certified lower power 4 seater planes from that time period. I recall flying an m20j with nice sporty heavy control feel. Maybe an m20c has more natural control feel.
@@jonasbaine3538 Actually, most M-20-Cs had a full-time pneumatic wing leveler "positive control" system that makes it intentionally ponderous in roll unless the system is defeated, either by the button on the yoke or with some semi-permanent method of turning off the system. There's a nice video that details this system on Skywagon's UA-cam channel.
The Beech "Aero Club" line was designed for extreme docility as a smooth stepping stone pathway to Bonanzas and beyond.
I like the vernier throttle on these models 😎
I always list my Sundowner as a "BE-23" in my log book. I looked it up a long time ago, but can't remember right off what the difference is between the C23, and BE23 though.
Mine does have electric flaps, electric trim, different panel format, and throttle handle quadrant rather than vernier / push pull. Perhaps those differences change the designation.
BE23 and BE24 are the FAA's designation for ATC purposes. They're Beechcraft Models C23 and C24R
Handsome planes, both.
I hire planes to fly for recreation. I'll never own one - but attending The Univerity is definitely the next best thing. Cheers.
Nice video.
Thanks!
You mentioned the slightly higher weight and solid build. Then you report how firmly it flys. That put me in mind reports of LSAs and how they are just the opposite and kind of tiring to fly even in light turbulence. I’d much rather own a used Sundowner than an expensive LSA⁉️😉
When the Sierra landing gear is extended the front wheel rotates from the storage to the landing orientation. The rotation can cause a momentary bit of turbulence that is noticeable but not a problem at all. I just thought I'd mention this quirk.
Interesting observation. Thanks for sharing!
Thank you once again for this,,
I find the beech line to be very rare in appearance in my neighborhood..had always wondered about there similarity to the piper, cessnas..
Just a question,, are u very comfortable in hopping in these various types of aircraft for each video? U certainly seem to be..
We currrently have a 1966 A23-19 also know as the Musketeer Sport. The big difference in the sport model is it is a O-320 150 HP. A total joy in the air, a hog on the runway, make sure you put it all in front of you. That said it is a very nice starter if you have at least 3k strip
Thank you for the insight.
I had a 74 Sport with Demmer wing tips and VGs would land at 47 mph ! And a much shorter take of run! Made it a very safe plane! Also speed mods got to 115ks cruise! It was common on approach 450 fpm descent to see 140kts!!
Maybe The Sundowner can be nicknamed the gear Downer to help you keep the landing gear straight
Great segment. Time now to do the Arrow and the t-tail Arrow comparison and put to sleep the T-tail myths.
I need a T tailed Arrow.
@@skywagonuniversity5023 I have one but I think you are too far.
Good morning
Is it possible to do a detailed comparison between the Beach Craft Sierra and the Piper Arrow 180, to include wing spar design, performance, safety features, maintenance cost, and cross country capabilities.
Thanks
I'd like to do exactly that comparison but I'll need both planes at the same time here.
Was it weight, cost or drag the reason Piper and Mooney only have one door? Great info. great visibility.
Fuselage strength- a door is a weak point (break) in the fuselage. The Beeches were built 'stronger' so they could have 2 holes.
Not to mention that if in a crash, (God forbid) that second door could be a life saver. If you have only one and it's blocked. Well, lets hope she don't catch on fire.
Yes, another exit unless there are big holes in the fuselage from the landing.
That back door is especially nice if the plane flips over in a water landing.
Thanks! Beechcraft is a brand I know very little of. Filled some holes.
Brand ambassador here...check out Beechaeroclub.com for more, we keep them flying!
Love the build and design quality of Beechcraft products.
The 200 hp in the Sierra which I’ve flown handle and controls and the best part it has two Doors for pilot and passenger
Would be curious to know whether that C23 had any aftermarket ballast in the tail.
I don't think so.
Mark I love the Beechcraft Models
We are considering a Sierra, Commander 114B and Cessna 177B.
Very hard decision to make!!
Of those three, I'd get a low time airframe Commander 114.
Depends on your age... I have a Sierra and if I was over 70, I would want the 177. The 177 is super comfortable and the easiest GA airplane to enter and exit.
@@cmmguy99 yes!
Hi.
Good video.
Is it possible for you to elaborate mor on the Beach Sundowner and Seria wing design.
I am interested in a low wing aircraft but i am concern about the wing design and related problems like the piper Cherokee series aircraft.
May i make a suggestion?
In your future reviews, can you include aircraft wing construction.
Thanks
Great suggestion!
I am looking forward to your next video.
PS: last night i saw you have the same aircraft listed on trader plane and on Controller.
One listing titled as a musketeer C-24R
The other titled
Sierra C-24R
What is the difference???
Well, isn’t it the better Piper actually? Why did Piper succeed so much and Beech didn’t? Only of this bit of speed? I can not follow this. Was there maybe also a major different in pricing far back, when they where new? To me the Beeches make a lot of sense. Solid, roomy, reliable and good looking. Easy to fly. What stopped this from huge success like Piper went through? Interesting story. Good review and video. Thanks.
Money, pipers were cheaper. Beech are the Cadillacs of the skies.
Always heard of the Sierra referred to as "The Poor Man's Bonanza" Have never really heard anything negative about the series of aircraft.
5:05 What's the maintenance cost on the rubber pucks? What do they cost to replace in a Mooney? Are there only two flap extension positions?
Yes, two flap positions. Rubber discs are $112 each in a Mooney.
What is the price point for the Beechcraft compared to the comparable Cessna and Piper?
Same price per hour. Pipers and Cezznahs seem to cost about 20% more, and up. Occasionally parts are hard to find for the airframe. But owner supplied parts are saving the fleet. www.beechaeroclub.com for more! Wee keep them flying!
I was thinking of getting one of these. Never heard of them? What are your thoughts for best trainer? Parts and service?
They are great trainers, especially the Sundowner.
@@skywagonuniversity5023what would you think a fair value for one is. Say 4K-5k TT and SMOH 500-1200 range. Seen a few listed and wondering in this market what’s fair to offer. Ready to pull the trigger on one.
Thoughts between the Sundowner 180 and a 172 with a 180hp STC like M or N model if you had to choose one?
Probably the 172 just because it is more common and easier to work on.
@@skywagonuniversity5023awesome thanks! I’m always learning something from these videos and chats. Much appreciated
@skywagonuniversity5023 I know its been a while since this video was made, but do you currently have a Sundowner for sale?
I don't have any at the moment. They are few and far between.
How do they ferry these single engine piston airplanes from US to Australia? Which route are they following? Don’t tell me they ship them with FedEx or UPS🙃
They fly to Australia from the US West Coast with a LOT of extra fuel and very very overweight to Maui, then Guam, then Fiji, then East Coast Australia. 2000 miles legs. UHF radio. etc. Or for a quarter of the price of that, they can be put in a shipping container with the wings off and send them on a boat port to port.
Thanks, Kudos to the ferry pilot on a 3000 miles trip from California coast to Maui in a tin can with propeller over vast Pacific Ocean. That airplane is definitely a testimonial of engineering marvel.
@@dtsh4451 I sent a 182 Turbo RG from Oakland to Sydney with all those stops across the pacific. It was 1056 Lbs Overweight when it took off each time. Full of fuel with tanks in the cabin and an oiler so you could squirt oil into the running engine every now and then. Also a Mooney Ovation went to Perth.
@@skywagonuniversity5023 1056 Lbs overweight on a 3000 Lbs empty airplane🥶. it never bothered you that was probably completely off the weight &balance chart when you loaded the airplane 🤣? You must have brass balls to fly that airplane！please make some videos next time on your ferry trip from US to Australia!
👍👍👍👍👍
😁 😁 😁 😁 😁 😁
Everyone I know that flew the Sierra never had much luck with the gear being reliable, granted it was a sample size of 3
Can you upgrade the fixed gear model with a 200 hp injected motor
Maybe, but you can buy one with the IO 360 already installed from the factory. Check out www.beechaeroclub.com for more!
What Eric is referring to is called the Musketeer Super III. Although it has the same airframe as the regular Musketeer and the Sundowner, there is no STC that allows upgrading the engine on one of those. There have been some Sports that have been upgraded from the O-320 to an O-360, but those are special cases. I own one of those planes and a previous owner installed a baggage door and finished out the baggage compartment with a hat shelf. The only practical difference between my plane and a Sundowner is that mine has only two windows on each side instead of three.
A suggestion from an actual Sierra owner, fly both planes or all planes you show in a video. I own a 75 BE24. My plane is a bit different than your model, I think you have an A model where mine is a B model. I can tell your baggage door is smaller and on the passenger's side where mine is much taller and on the pilot's side. My throttles are on a middle box with throttle handles like a Cherokee where yours's is on a stick to push in and out. I bought mine in 2020 and have already put well over 200 hours on it. I will tell you compared to a Cherokee they land much harder and will bounce if you are even a bit too fast vs the Cherokee with the shocks. They are also very nose heavy so many guys toss weights in the back to give them a better cg. I have flown mine from Florida where I am based in Kissimmee to Wisconsin, Missouri, Illinois and Indiana several times. As long as you aren't in any turbulence you can generally sit back, kick on the auto pilot and relax with plenty of room to spare!! Keep on flying and remember, fly all planes you showcase in your videos, viewers will want to see that!
I fly the ones I own and the ones that owners say I can fly. I do not fly the ones that the owners do not want flown while they are here or ones that are not insured for me. I flew the Sundowner because I own it and it is 97% A Sierra.
@@skywagonuniversity5023 Then try this as a suggestion. Fly with the owner and talk about the planes. That way he is there for insurance reasons and go from there. I just see it like a car channel saying look at these 2 cars and then never drive them. I hope it helps grow the channel for ya!
While we appreciate the suggestion, the owner may be geographically dislocated from us and unavailable. Often, we have a ferry pilot bring us the plane, because the owner doesn't want to (for a myriad of reasons).
No right side audio?
Yup. It was a setting that got changed inadvertently and I apologize to your right ear. - Don the Camera Guy.
You need a Mooney, Sierra, arrow video.
Sierra would win, hands down. Except for speed. Unless you're looking for lowest number in that category, which it will win.
@@ericsd55 I am not sure about that, I really love my M20E.
I like the Muskateer series because I do not like the way the Pipers "squat" The Sundowner and Sierra stand nice and tall. If I were in the market for my first plane, the Sundowner would be perfect!
ATC doesn't know the codes....they just call you a Beech LOL. SOMETIMES they call you a Debonair if you have a nice tailwind and are booking it.
I have quite a few hours in these birds. Even have a few videos public. Mine is for sale. www.beechaeroclub.com for more! Here's the lineup of the baby beechs, or Mice (Meeses?):
Musketeer (23, A23 A23A) O320 O-346
Sport/Musketeer ( A23-29, 19A, M19A, B19) O320
Supper III (A23-24, A24) IO360
Custom/Sundowner (B23, C23)
Sierra 200 (A24R, B24R, C24R)
I think I got them all. BAC guys fix it if it broke!
Some are aerobatic!
I love the original 1963 Model 23. It has the 160hp Lycoming O320-D2B. It has a baggage compartment with exterior door, burns about 8.3 gph for a very long cruise range. It had no black scat issues that caused corrosion on the later models. Also, the early models only had one entry door and early fuselage used what they called “slab” construction. They were more flat on the side of the cabin. The later models had a more rounded fuselage and two entry doors. The real sleeper of the group is the Super III. If you have one of those with two doors and variable pitch prop, you have an aircraft with one of the highest useful loads in its class.