Cheap Reduced Shank Drills. Worse Than You Think
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- Опубліковано 29 гру 2023
- Hey everyone,
I am in need of a set of silver and demming/reduced shank drills. I spend quite a lot of time boring or using the boring head because I haven't acquired the vast collections of tooling that many machine shops accumulate over years and years. I was looking to purchase some larger drills, but unsurprisingly, they aren't cheap. Even the off brand ones are easily $50 plus for sizes larger than 15mm. Now I will be happy to pay for that one day (especially when I know what sizes I really need) but for now I decided to buy a set off ebay.
I knew that these drills would not be great. I couldn't find any videos on them, so I bought them to find out if they were a case of 'you get what you pay for' or a hidden gem. Turns out, they had a lot of issues, ranging from deep scratches, bad grinds and undersized.
Long story short, don't make my mistake.
#machining #drillbitset
Silver and demming drill bits
cheap silver and demming drill bits - Наука та технологія
i have a very similar set and i gotta say, you seriously got the short end of the stick here. i also paid 40usd for mine but the quality difference is day and night compared to these. they are not comparable to good quality bits but i have zero complains about the grinding and finishing (for the price), and while watching the video i got curious about the actual size so i used a micrometer and they are all within 0.05mm, which is impressive. material quality is probably about the same as yours, and that "wws 25" is commonly known as "Chinesium"
in conclusion: not all chinese crap is made the same
That's the thing with low end stuff. The product is not consistent so quality is all over the place. It's gambling. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Now there are people that do enjoy the activity. That's why casinos are in business. We all like to play the games occasionally.
Not all Chinese crap is the same, but it is still all Chinese crap.
@@1pcfred its not about gambling at all, at least for anyone i know... its just that in many cases "the good stuff" costs 5 to 10 times the price of a chinese knockoff, and for people like me who dont use these tools on a daily basis it is not justifiable to spend the money. a good example: in my country a cordless DeWalt drill (the only good quality brand you can get here) costs 1000usd, a chinese cordless drill costs 100usd. no matter how bad i treat them, i am not gonna break 10 cordless drills in my entire lifetime, and even if i bought 2 or 3 to have a spare in case of need, i'd still come out ahead. as he said, the entire box of chinese drillbits is worth less than ONE SINGLE good quality bit
@@TheMadJoker87 if a tool isn't fit for task it doesn't matter how cheap it is. Although $1,000 for a drill is expensive. Here DeWalt drills run about $100 to $300 or so depending on the model. Those are kits with batteries and chargers. I'm not sure if DeWalt is the best. It's likely good enough though. A lot like Milwaukee. I'm pretty sure even those brands are made in China today too. Some off brands are OK. I have some old Black and Decker cordless tools myself. Good enough for me.
Short end of the stick? I think you mean the reduced end of the shank.
I learned a long time ago that a cheap import tool can get you by in a pinch but you still have to treat them all like half finished projects. Some can be fixed up into a workable condition but most aren't worth the time or effort.
I got a few when i had to drill i think 4 holes. No tolerance but large diameter.
Worked well enough.
Dents and scratches on ground surfaces are a warning that the metal may be soft. Real HSS is 62-68 HRC, and are very hard to scratch or dent. The scammers advertise the drills (and other tools) are made from HSS, and when you get them you can instantly tell they aren't HSS, but some alloy of questionable heritage. Amazon does nothing about this, they take no responsibility for false advertising.
😢
I’m guessing they came from them all being thrown in a pile/ bin while being made instead of being kept separated.
worth going for the amazon reccomended ones in this case cause then they do take responsibility.
You expect anything from scamazon?
@@TalRohanexcellent point on the Amazon recommendation. I love that return policy.
Crazy how much quality can vary on the cheaper imported tools. I have a set of these I got from Horror Freight about 10 years ago and they still serve me fine. They’ve been re-sharpened many times
To be fair, Harbor Freight vets their suppliers. It tries to ensure its products are at least minimally viable as an American company.
I bought a similar set through the jungle themed online source from a random Asian import seller. Mine work and look slightly better than yours, but I didn't get the optional missing chunks and scratches from the midnight shift.
I think if you need a hole like thing in sizes you don't otherwise have or use often, not a bad deal. If you want said hole to be accurate or the drills to last, keep stepping.
Usually, quality with import tools is reflected in their lifetime. I needed 4x 22mm holes in 3mm steel, and you can bet your bottom dollar I am not going to spend more than $25 for a drill in that size. And I am also not paying for a boring head, or someone to bore it out for me with their tools.
But if you make a living from drilling 22mm holes, you just get the proper tools.
I did the same thing with the multi-piece set of end mills. Used them til they got dull and replaced them with good ones. It was a good way to get a selection of sizes not knowing what sizes I'd be using most often.
I'll tell you which sizes you use. You use the sizes that aren't busted and dull. That's the sizes you use in sets. Hmmm, this one still looks good. I guess I'm using it.
One philosophy I've heard about tools is to first buy them cheap, and if you use them eniigh to break them (assuming they arent total pieces of junk to start with) then buy quality ones.
@@AnonOmis1000 that's a strategy I've heard and used myself. It isn't ideal but that's how things go. Life would be easy if we started out with all the answers. But I didn't.
@@AnonOmis1000 Even the Chinese end mills I bought were not junk and they cut well. I jsut didn't know which sizes I would use the most so the multi piece set was the right choice for me. After I got to making other projects I started buying more specialized cutters based on what I was making. Plus as I was learning I broke more cutters than I do now so cheap was a quality all it's own.
I must admit to being taught to gradually increase the size of hole I am drilling. One starts with a spotting drill, then goes to 1/4" (6mm) & goes up in steps, to suit one's lathe. Mine being a Myford, so around 1/8" (3mm). Clearly with the biggest sizes you need to reduce the size difference. The object being not to stall the lathe or chew up the chuck jaws. Or if the drill has a taper fit & your lathe does not have a corresponding internal tang, chew up your tapper.
even with a proper lathe and dril bit ,yanking a 25mm drillbit into a non drilled part is work.As the RPm in the middle is Zero,you are pushing a big pieace of stell through a different piace of steel.
So predrilling with a drilbit larger the non cutting centerpart will drop forces a lot....
so Predrilling is always a good step
@@bosanaz2010One might even say it's mandatory
You'd be horrified seeing Kurtis at Cutting Edge Engineering push a 2" drill into a huge cylinder rod without drilling a pilot. He uses Bluddy Big lathes however 😂
@@johncoops6897 Step drilling is mostly a myth; with proper setup you should be able to mark, punch (ideally center drill) and then choose the appropriate drill size. You then ream/bore to size if required for the application. Step drilling wastes time and massacres drill bits(and tools and wrists) and too often the hole ends up worse.
@@rolfbjorn9937 - it requires a huge amount of tool pressure to push the web of a large drill into the stock. Unless the drill is ground with a split point, you have a dead flat chisel (The width of the drills web) that you literally have to push through the material, as there is no cutting happening from the sharpened cutters in that central area. Furthermore the friction at that point can overheat the drill or work harden the material.
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Remember, most of us are hobbyists and even drilling anything over half inch in steel can be challenging, perhaps a bit larger in a decent drill press. It's even more difficult with a Jacobs chuck, like shown in this video, where extra tool pressure means chewing up the drill shank and/or chuck jaws.
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So, the decision becomes... does my machine have enough rigidity and grunt to push the large drill hard enough, or will it be quicker overall to preform a second step of drilling a pilot/clearance hole.
I've always know these as "Blacksmiths drills". I bought a set of import drills some years ago and they were honestly not too bad; I drilled a bunch of stainless steel round bar to make motorcycle wheel spacers (bored them to size afterwards) and they handled it pretty well. Mine don't have the flats on the shank though, so you need to really tighten the chuck for the larger ones.
I think most tools that are made with no quality control at all, it's hit and miss!!! I bought a set of these a few years ago & the relief was higher than the cutting edge!!!
Had this sort of inch/metric discrepancy happen to me when I bought a very cheap #26 (0.147”) wire gauge drill, arrived at exactly 3.7mm even though it was stamped #26. Funny enough that’s the metric size I was roughly shooting for anyway
The shank on the 25mm drill reads WWS25. I believe that means that it is WWS tool steel, 25mm
It did look like the 25mm drill bit which is about the biggest clue to what the reference was.
I see a cool project here. Pick one of the oversized drills and case harden then grind the OD to size with a tool post grinder. You might end up with a really nice drill.
Oh man, we used to have to share these in machining school, had a tool crib guy that was half blind and would most of the time give you either the wrong size you needed or a completely dull one. Got some great bit sharpening practice though😂
Happy New Years!
Keep up the great work, I'm excited to see what projects you have in store for us in 2024!
A lot of these cheap reduced shank drill bits are optimized for drilling wood. Once you get above 5/8 they are pretty much snap city. Using them in a 'real' drill press or real lathe they snap right off at the step down. Splitting the point can help a lot. But in my shop I use taper shank over 5/8 of an inch. Mt2 seems to hold well to about 7/8 of an inch.
A drill that snaps off is hard, and will stay sharp a long time if you take care of it. Cheap alloy drills usually twist off, indicating poor heat treat/soft metal.
@Bob_Adkins the cheap drills are both, depending. Sometimes you get overly hard carbon steel labeled as HSS. Sometimes you get some they forgot to harden. My good drill bits will twist before breaking if pushed to hard. The cheap ones are a couple crap shoot.
@@moosesmachinery If you can find one or 2 dependable brands (with unpronounceable names) you can get some good tools for cheap, but it could take several tries to find the better quality.
Thanks for sharing your experience! Interesting how you can see the runout in the holes in some segments.
That's why I like buy old used tools, good material, made with pride, in a time when businesses had to build good quality to sell their product.
Cheers
Old tools are not available everywhere. You can only get them in places that had a lot of tools long ago. If it was never there you're just not going to find it now. Because it ain't there. It never was. It's kind of like archeology in a way. Sure you can dig artifacts up out of the ground. But you have to dig in the right places to have any hope of finding them. If you dig where no one ever settled you're not going to ever find anything. It simply isn't where you're digging.
No guarantee the quality is better tbh.
@@HandyWyo there are no true guarantees. That's one thing life has taught me.
I just got that exact same set for Christmas. Like the exact same set. I'm glad I watched this. I'll predominantly be using them for non precise wood applications or non critical metal, but I didn't expect the set to be a good set, just good enough for what I'm doing with them.
Happy New year mate love the content 👍
Great video. I suppose the other point about Demming bits is the torque on the bit from cutting is generally more than the chuck may be designed for. Obviously a 13mm (or 16mm) chuck is designed to cope with the cutting torque from 13 or 16mm bits. A 25mm bit will be roughly 2x that torque for a 13mm chuck, or 50% more for a 16mm chuck.
For this reason I think the MT bits are the go. FWIW I've used the Hare & Forbes MT2 HSS sets and they've been quite OK.
Thank you for mentioning this channel by the way. It's just my cup of tea.
Hey need more videos of Tiffany please
I just bought a 115 piece TiN index from harbor freight here in the states. For 48 dollars I wasn’t expecting much but I’m planning to replace the most used bits with more solid brands once I need to, and as a bonus I get to keep using the sheet metal box they came in for organization.
I bought a set of 29 1/16-1/2" cobalt drills from HF for around $25, and they're the real deal. Others have been junk except a 1/16-1/4" set I got for $5. They were real HSS, still great after 20 years. So it's hit-and-miss!
I bought the black oxide 115 Harbor Freight set back in the day when it was the princely sum of $29.95 just to see how bad they really are. I still use that index. For mild steel it's OK. I wouldn't try drilling anything hard with those bits. Over the years as I've found them I've been putting better quality bits into the index too. For an amateur I'd say it's a buy.
@@1pcfredYep. The biggest thing with those cheap sets is, as long as the grinds aren't just complete garbage, they get you drilling. They make a hole, and especially when you're just starting out that's all most people are looking for.
@@OWSNubbles when I'm drilling a hole past a half an inch I just want a big hole of approximate size. I'm not concerned about precision at that scale. Anything in the ballpark will do.
They are NOT worse than I think. Do not underestimate how bad I think they are! 😉
I've bought some off-brand drill bits and saw blades before, you just have to keep in mind that they are low quality and use them as such.
Totally agree the flats on the shank makes all the difference on a reduced shank but without a grinder fixture I can't recommend grinding them by had as they won't grip accurately. What scares me is people putting these in hand drills, they do nothing but wreak your wrist in anything but wood. I have actually bought quite a good range over the years as places like Bunnings drop lines due to low turn over, good quality too.
Even some once great names in drills can have bad grinds. I was once making some bolt action pens using 304 stainless. The closest drill I found to the size I wanted for the main clearing cut came out of a Precision Twist Drill index. It was terrible. At first I thought it was just work hardening on me, but after hand grinding the drill I did a dozen pens without sharpening it again, and I am confident it was still sharp. In fact I was able to push so hard and fast with it that the knives of steel would reach out of the hole and almost hit my hand on the back of the tail stock in seconds if I didn't pause to break chips.
Ah yes, the old saying "You get what you pay for" comes to mind...
Have a wonderful New Year's Day!!!
Looking forward to more of your fantastic videos!!
Exactly that.
Inches were redefined at some point to be exactly 25.4mm to the inch, so you could argue that inches are just a subset of metric. That said, I have some of those drills and they make such a horrible hole that you would always finish off with a decent drill, or bore to size. They are only good for roughing, so just treat them as "undersize" drills.
I bought an Imperial set of Blacksmith's drills from a reputable dealer a few years back, they came in a blow moulded case. They all worked fine, but the 5/8" one obviously wasn't even hardened, you could mark it with a standard file ! A complaint got me a suitable replacement and I've used them ever since. They do tend to chip or fracture their outer cutting edge when I'm using them onsite in my cordless, but thats mostly down to me "step drilling" to make big holes with my battery Makita !
Here in Germany, we have a saying which would translate into „buy cheap, buy twice“.
Nice demonstration of this, mate ✌️😎
I had assumed that in this context "high speed steel" meant it was made very quickly, but perhaps it describes the tools flight to the bin :-)
Or dulls very quickly
I’ve been eyeballing this set on Amazon. If nothing else they are probably a good set to buy if you want to practice sharpening twist drills.
Your results are significantly better than I got from a similarly sized set obtained from Bangood. The problem with my drills is that they were not hard enough. I even tried heat treating a couple, but the steel was not responding. So mine are a dead loss.
2:37 That's the place for a Jacobs 20N chuck, and those are pretty big.
I've bought a few sets of those over the years, on the same premise - break or wear one of the set out, replace it with a good quality bit. Most went okay, but I did have one set that were terrible, they actually bent in use. These days I use annular cutters for any hole over 13mm in diameter unless I am doing the drilling in the lathe. I have good quality bits all the way up to 22mm on the replace it if I broke it premise for use in the lathe.
One day I will be brave enough to stick an annular cutter in the lathe! Being able to take a 30mm slug out would give my boring bars a lot of relief!
For drilling big holes I am using euroboor anullar cutters with an arbor and they are amazing.
Yep but only useful for short depths and through holes only.
On a lathe I wouldn't use blacksmith or reduced shank drills (well I have a few in the 12mm to 16mm range which have all been reduced to 10mm to save time when using a collet chuck) because you have a Morse taper available in the tailstock which is so much better to use.
Good video, thanks for all the effort. I've been using annular cutters with a Morse taper (or R8, et.) adapter, lathe or mill. More accurate size, great finish, quicker and less horsepower required. The only con is being economically limited to 2" depth. A bonus though is a plug left over that can be used for other project
I have a suggestion for your next Shop Project...
Build yourself a drill holder for the grinder so you can ensure your sharpening is symmetrical and at the proper angle...Bonus Points if it can handle ALL your drills, from 1/8th inch all the way up to 3 inch if you ever buy (or build) a drill that large...
😄😁😆😅😂🤣
Thanks for the video. It's educational.
This proves yet again that you pay for what you get.
If it's a cheapo set and it works, have at it, otherwise look elsewhere.
I use cheap RS drills like these quite frequently in both drill press and CNC mill, so far haven't had any major issue besides a chipped edge when I entered the cut with bad feeds/speeds. That's entirely operator error tho.
Gave it a new edge with the drill doctor and have been working great since.
Granted I would really recommend only using them in thicker material where the sides get proper support from whatever you're drilling into.
Handdrilling I wouldn't use them in anything else than wood or plastic.
Like with any tool you always need to be very mindful of their limitations. I wouldn't try going from a 4mm hole to 25mm with a RS drill and also pushing it hard into the material. You really need to properly predrill to use these sizes. 😁
Edit: Seeing/hearing all the problems your drillset has, they must've been of exceptionally bad quality. 😳
I snapped one of my el cheapo big drills clean in half once. I welded it back together and I still use it. It makes me laugh every time I do. Because it still works as good, or bad, as it ever did.
They made metric inches quite a while ago when the inch was standardized to 25.4mm.
Or 24.5mm in some cases🤣
That's it. The modern inch is the Standard inch. A Swede named Carl Edvard Johansson came up with it in 1896. Then a bloke named Henry Ford really took a shine to the idea. What old Henry wanted the world got too. He was a very persuasive guy.
What's funny is 19mm is an almost perfect match for 3/4", only .002" difference, and that's the one that's the furthest off.
Working with wrenches, though, 13/16" and 20mm are interchangeable in nearly every application. 7/8" and 22mm also. 15/16" and 24mm as well. Wrenches don't need to be as precision as drill bits, but you get the idea.
Silver & Deming was a machine tool builder, which made a drill presses the that either had a spindle bore or holder (not sure which) that had a 1/2" hole. I recall them to be referred to as "Deming" machines. These drills were developed so that larger sizes would fit he bore. (We owned companies such as Cleveland Twist Drills)
Another thing to keep in mind with "reduced shank" anything, is that the thing you're throwing it into (a jacobs chuck) is engineered for the sizes they are ment for.
Sure drilling is low force, but they might deform any internal workings
That doesn't make any sense in most situations - unless you're using the smallest chuck with a huge 1+" drill it's not going to do anything to it. Your feed rates and pressure shouldn't be enough to cause issues and if they are you probably aren't using enough lubricant/coolant. A standard k3/k4 chuck using a reduced shank drillbit is fine for nearly all materials. If you're pushing a drill that hard you should probably be using a cnc and just plunging with an endmill, but that's going to cause other potential issues (out of round holes, poor finish, etc)
@@skoparweaver7692 I agree with his post that reduced shank drills in that size range are not great for steel.
It's far better to use a morse taper drill dirctly in the tailstock or in a morse to morse size adapter when drilling something like 3/4 or 1 inch
Ha! I bought this exact same set awhile back. They chatter like crazy because the grind wasnt right as you stated. I use mine more of a roughing drill as you mentioned and then finish the size out with a boring bar when possible
I do the same thing hahah!!
Even printed and laminated some charts for converting and convenience around the shop 😏🤜🏼🤛🏼
I have what looks like an identical set of drill bits. Same box too. I've had them for a couple of years now. Got them from Amazon for around £15 from Amazon. They were advertised as HSS-Co, wasn't expecting it to be at that price 😂
I needed a 16mm hole in some aluminium during lock-down while working in London. This was the cheapest and quickest way to get it done. I've only used them a handful of times since, most are still in their individual bags.
No chips in the finish of mine but being a budget set they only ever get used on soft materials.
You could grind or mill 3 flats into the Frost drill bits. Mr. Pete did a video on this some time ago. It’s not rocket science, but an example of how much better it works at least. Good video sir.
Usually the shank end of bits isn't hardened. So it can be machined. I think it's left soft so you don't mess up your chuck and it can grip? I've dug grooves into plenty of bit shanks and had to file them away. So it seems soft to me.
@@1pcfred -they are left soft on purpose, as harden jaws and harden drill shanks wouldn’t work very well together 😬
With unknown quality of the drill bits (with all the chips and the size inconsistencies) and how they’re produced, they could’ve harden the entire drill bit 🤷🏼♂️
@@orangetruckman that's why I figured shanks aren't hardened. But with cheap bits who knows what they did with them.
In curious why you didn’t go mid grade? Your drill (ryobi) is mid grade and I use some ryobi tools because they get the job done in most use cases (like my leaf blower and snow blower although electric snow blowers just don’t have the hp needed yet)
I’d imagine there are likely some drill bit sets in the $100-150 range that would likely offer a good bang for the buck
in steels, the composition, the heat treatment and grain size counts for hardness and durability. Depending of factory control, is very easy to neglect the grain size and heat treatment.
Hundreds of years ago these would have been miracle tools compared to everything else. All things being relative. Today competition is more fierce.
Wow😂. Thanks for taking one for the team.
Biggest advice I can give is to throw that Jacob’s chuck in the trash and only use ER collets to hold the drill bits in the tail stock. It improved my drilling experience tremendously especially with the super small bits. With a collet I can be assured that the drill bit will not slip marring the surface of the drill and destroying its concentricity.
I have the exact set (right down to the foam between the smaller drills arriving ripped off) sold under the Nikko(?) brand. I just wanted a complete set. Ended up using them for some very real 1/2" and 1" steel plate. In my big mill, 3HP, 3PH, 100RPM, they did just fine. It definitely appears there's a different, harder steel close to the tip, which I've seen in other name brand drills.
They're not going to outlive me, for sure. But they do the job. I wouldn't advise using them in a hand drill unless you hate yourself (and your drill, and your work) but in a pinch they work.
Chinesium...
Kinda on par...as they say "Buy once, cry once"
Definitely look into building/buying a drill bit sharpener...especially if you can build one where you can grind in a relief on the back side for drilling metal
I wonder if you could re-heat treat them to see if you can make them harder?
Keep em coming!!!!
Lots of Chinese products are poor because of poor heat treating, so I was thinking the same thing.
See Harold Hall's design for a 4 facet drill sharpening jig. It is simple to build and works extremely well. All Chinese stuff isn't the same cheap crappo quality....it is the same thing wherever you buy from,if the price is so low to dictate poor quality that is exactly what you should expect. A decent set of HSS Blacksmiths drills would be no less than £80.00 GBP.
You can buy the best and still end up crying at a later date. Life's funny like that sometimes.
@@howardosborne8647 Awesome good stuff there...thanks!!!!
ua-cam.com/video/Ry02Y4SZeds/v-deo.html
Drills are very minorly tapered from the cutting end to the held end to prevent jamming from chips or if it is not perpendicular to the job,
the cutting edges on the flutes can like you showed be stoned or linished to get them smooth ish again, they do every now and then need a touch up from either a bump or bingle or using them in a cord/less drill to enlargen hole etc.
The web can be thinned on large drills to enhence cutting/drilling large diameter hole with a tiny on no pilot hole
Also those drills could just need a quenching or tempering to get them to a more exceptable hardness
Most are but as I said in the video these have no taper, strange isn’t it.
You need import calipers too, then it will be spot on.
10:19 I think I strained my abs laughing at this, it's SO BAD!!
I feel so lucky being in the US getting so much really good old taps, drills, hss blanks, and anything else you want on the second hand market for a really good price
I bought a set of Silver and Demming large drill bits. They are a step or two above garbage. They tend to chatter and make hexagon holes instead of nice round holes. You need to use several sizes and work your way up to the final size. In regards to drilling holes over one half inch I just have two words to say..........annular bits. I bought a few sizes and will never use anything but them on large holes. NO chatter and you start with the proper size. Perfectly round holes, no rimming around the edge, and smooth work faces. They take a special chuck as they are actually meant for use in magnetic drills but I bought a cheap chuck that fits the #2 Morse taper of my 5?8 inch drillpress and you just insert the annular bits into the lower end and tighten the two set screws and start drilling. The bits are pricey but worth it in my opinion.
happy new year.
thanks for sharing your video,s.
cheers ben.
Also bought a set of reduced shanks. But no issues, always go through my tools distributor with important tooling. The reduced distance stops runout. Stand with feet apart when sharpening. Practice makes perfect. Tools4Industry.
Could you grind some flats onto the shanks of the better drills? To help them grip better?
Bought very similar drills, the short length of the would suit my mill with limited z axis. I regrinded at my work with a automatic drillgrinder before i even tried them. the tip was quite offcenter on several of them. Bought them as a roughing tool also so I dont need them to be as good as namebrand but would be nice if they survived a couple of holes before touch up. I actually bought them in the food store. It is the german Lidl chain which are big warehouses there. Here in Sweden it is just only a small food store but a couple of aisles where it could be just about anything for this week. So schnitzels and drills at the same time
I wanted to make a video about these, or similar. I bought the ones from Lidl (don't know of you have that over there).
My experience was not great, they were ground very badly. They managed to grind the cutting edges _smaller_ than the outer diameter of the drills, so all the drills rubbed and locked up when drilling more than 5mm deep.
But after regrinding they were reasonably ok. The biggest problem being my 350W lathe motor not coping with the larger diameters
I'd say all those drills are good for is hogging out material before a more precise boring process, and maybe centre pinches in the future.
Cheap import imperial tools are very often metric with “close enough” imperial labelling. You see 6mm drills labeled as 1/4” all the time. For cheap stuff I never believe the labels, I gotta measure em.
The OEM for those hardness files is Japanese - Tsubosan
My guess is they are buying discarded tooling that never met the already questionable QC in bulk and were throwing it in boxes they sourced.
Flipside, good video and cheap crap to mess with :)
Interesting lesson on how not to grind a drill bit. I have a 25 mm drill like that which didn't want to make good chips and now I am sure it lacks the relief, but it was new and I thought it could not possibly require to regrind it out of the box.
I've seen plenty of cheap drills that were ground wrong right from the factory. Some so bad there's no chance they could ever drill a hole. Reliefs completely backwards even. With the cutting edge diving down. You get what you pay for. Maybe. If you're good at sharpening drills you can almost always improve over factory grinds even in the best of cases.
The small bits often sold for drilling electronics PCBs are by far the worst.
I have bought from numerous Chinese sellers over the years, and usually the drills under 3mm have reverse clearance, with zero chance of even cutting plastic... well, except by melting their way through.
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The last few batches (including 100 supplied with a pin vice that I wanted) had absolutely no grinding at all. They were dead flat across the end, so no wonder I wouldn't get them to start 😂
@@johncoops6897 I use much smaller diameter bits than 3 mm drilling out printed circuit boards. Sometimes less than a millimeter. But sharpening those bits up right is beyond me. So one day I just ground a point on one and it drilled OK. So that's what I do with them now. I don't know where the point geometry stops working. Even 2 mm size bits those I can grind. But the really tiny ones I just grind points on them. They drill like that.
@@1pcfred - yeah, the little ones are hard to sharpen. I can get 2 good edges down to 0.9mm using a diamond stone and lots of magnification. On high quality 0.7mm I can usually get them to work pretty good.
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I will try your trick with the V point, which I know will work with a powered drill. I want to test if that works with the hand drill (pin vice) that I use.
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One batch of cheap bits wasn't even hardened. So no matter what, the fiberglass PCBs just destroy those, sometimes before even making one hole 😃
@@johncoops6897 I don't know how good pointing up miniature drills would work with hand drivers. I use a high speed mini press. But with that it works good for me.
Just some advice from an experienced machinist, you need to measure the drill at the cutting end of and the speeds and feeds that book is giving you doesn’t account for the power and rigidity of the machine. You should be running around 80 to 150 RPM. Keep your feed consistent and keep plenty of oil on the tool and work. Try to cut as much as you can before having to back the drill out to clear the chips. The more you retract the less accurate the hole will be. Lastly, with a drill that size you always need to have a pre-drill hole about equal to the size of the web of the larger drill. This is even the case with split point drills. With all that said, I love your content and your creativity. You’ve made some things that I wish I had the time to make.
Wait til you see how fast he runs his reamers! 🤣
Agreed, that is fast for that drill. Interesting point on split points. I thought the idea is that they don’t need a pilot because they cut to the tip?
@@freestyla101 split points are more accurate but the larger you go the more they wander.
@@brandontscheschlog interesting I didn’t know. I usually drill a pilot the size of the chisel anyway. What is your thought on drilling incrementally when the finishing size is big, say 25mm for example. Obviously you’d drill clearance for the chisel, but would you go up in steps or straight to 25mm?
fun fact, the inch is actually classified as 25.4 millimeters, so those of us still on the imperial system are just using metric with extra steps
Looks like you got a box of adventures for Christmas 😅
I've seen terrible bits like these for sale at the traveling tool sales events. I would guess that they are being made from copies of copies of copies with an obvious lack of QA & QC. As the automation process is completed, these bits are likely removed from the machines with a conveyor system that repeatedly drops them into a large pile that creates the damage you see. On the plus side, I've seen sets that weren't even sharpened, lol. They looked like they were just cast and put into the drill bit index without any machining at all.
With these types of things, you either drop the $$ and it dents the floor or you buy cheese. They're probably still good for wood work. Sharpen them and put them to work in that.
They might struggle to drill Parmigiano or mature Cheddar😂
May I suggest a way to use these drills and they can work well enough.
Make a tool holder that you can fit to the turret/tool post. It can align on the entire part for the chuck and push from the shoulder. No slips , no bends and the ultimate lazy part you can auto feed the drill with the carriage. It will keep your tail stock nice as well as the drill chuck for finer work.
Been a contractor for a while knew day one on site anything other than Makita, Milwaukee, Hilti doesn't last or do the job efficiently.
Spend the money on quality tools and they'll look after you for life.
Drills like the one shown are good for your mums domestic needs around the house
I bought that same set, (pretty sure, case looks the same) with the expectation that they will survive about… 3 holes each, without precision. My need for holes that large is rare and far between, and never needs precision of any serious degree, so ‘good enough’.
I have my wooden box of oversized reduced shank bits. Like you say it's not something I need all the time but when I need it then I need it. If I needed it more I'd have better bits.
I wonder if the ground outer diameter is concentric and parallel with the shank? You could probably figure that out by puting them in a collet on the mill and checking with a test indicator. Given the other problems, I wouldn't be surprised if they were at least a bit out of whack there too.
Drill shank on the frost drill is probably soft so you could machine three flats rather than grind?
It would be interesting to see you clean them all up sharpen and heat treat them and then retest to see if they could end up a better deal with elbow grease .
What fountain pen were you using?
Sometimes it makes sense to buy a cheap, craptastic tool/s that you can make work once or twice. But, we all know that we should "buy once and cry once" for tools that will be used daily or very frequently. It many cases, I buy used high quality American made tools for the cost of new Chinese junk tools. Most of these old American tools have almost no wear and tear on them and will last for decades.
$499 for a few drill bits I'd cry more than once. I might even be emotionally scarred for life.
Artisan, I have found that when I measure the metric drill bits at work, that they measure under the stated size. I suspect that it might be to allow for some material for reaming, but that is speculation. Does the Engineer's Black Book have any pages on drill bit sizes and actual sizes?
Mark from Melbourne Australia 🇦🇺
The black book doesn’t go into that amount of detail unfortunately. Having a look at my Sutton drills, they seem to be close to size, but all within 0.01mm cheers
Thank you !!
I wouldn't say I particularly prefer metric or imperial, but switching back and forth can be a pain in the butt.
I work in fairly large factory in the US that does contract manufacturing for medical devices, *mostly* designed by US companies. A lot of the newer parts that come through (designed post-1990 or so) are all metric, but a lot of the old pieces are still imperial nominal sizes and prints because that was the manufacturing process the FDA signed off on, and changing it will require their approval, so we're stuck with it until someone decides to retire the design and replace it.
The more annoying cases are those rare occasions where a print is a mix of the two. There are these parts we make a lot of where the print calls out a 5mm hole with a +/- .05 tolerance, no big deal. That same hole also has a 12-48 UNS thread, which calls for.193-.198" on the minor diameter which works to 4.9mm-5.03mm.
So because of how they overlap, our tolerance on both is cut down and the actual acceptable size for the hole is *neither* of the ranges listed on the print, it's 4.95-5.03.
The other part that gets me is the decimal places. If a feature's .005mm oversize, no big deal. .005"? Way more of a problem, and probably scrap.
With big drills like these, the main thing to remember, is to run them slow. Its uncoated low quality HSS. With that kind of tool material I stick to between 20 and 25 m/min. ✌
It is suspected by a lot of people that the Chinese package up their rejects and sell them cheap and I have had a few over the years. The best was a set of 120 HSS drills for hard metals like stainless steel for around GBP12.00, I got 120 drills in a nice foam lined case but they were rubbish. None would drill anything harder than mild steel, 20 went in the bin straight off as they were bent and/or not hard at all, the rest needed regrinding as the tips were either off center, ground with back to front relief or both. I complained and got a refund and got to keep the drills, they now work in aluminium, brass, plastic and wood but steel blunts them quickly. There are good Chinese drills but they tend to be in small sets and are not much different in price to branded ones, my cheap ones are useful as they are 2 - 6 mm in steps of 0.1mm for the small ones and further apart as they get bigger, with multiples of each size. I treat them as disposable and will get a better set when I need them. For the stainless I had to drill, I bought 2 of the size I needed from a reputable source at around GBP3.00 each which do the job well.
I was lucky and was able to find a whole milk crate of Morse taper bits at an antiques shop with MT1-MT4 in all different sizes I have only used a couple MT2 ones and don't see myself ever needing any of the larger tapers in my home hobbies.
Happy New Year man
I have no issues with the cheap reduced shank bits .
But I make sure to keep the speeds down, and often give a proper sharpening on my tool&cutter grinder .
I think I have the exact same set (I bought it about year ago). I never messured mine, but the first time I used the smallest drill from the set, the drill snapped in half in mild steel. So I guess, I don't have to messure that one.
Great video as always and have a great start in 2024.
Metric greating from Germany ;-)
I was going to buy a set just like that one. Good thing I didn't got it. Thanks for the review you save me a headache.
The problem with cheap products is inconsistency so you can't buy a set just like this one. As they're all a bit different. So I wouldn't put much stock in one experience myself.
They all cut OK and we're the correct hardness for non cobalt hss. A pilot hole and a regrind and they will all cut fine. Does anyone else manage to grind drills with one hand on the top by the grinding wheel?
Try a 13 or 14mm pilot drill takes alot of tool pressure off and you will get a better finish
Most likely they are factory rejects that were brought up and packaged as a set for resale. They could be rejects for bad temper, damage or rejects on sizing, which would explain the mismatch of sizes in the set. They probably brought a large bin of all sorts of sizes and picked out whichever one was the closest to the sizes they were aiming for to make up a set. Chances are that most people that would buy a set like that would never actually think of measuring the bits to check their sizes.
Hey Mate have you had any experience with Amos industries drill bits. i think they're made in brisbane.
This is a classic case of marketing to the masses who just want something "barely good enough" at REALLY CHEAP PRICES. Don't feel bad, as I live in the US and we have our share of these out here too. In all fairness without the "CHINESIUMS", most of the DIY'ers will be restoring old tools. As a matter of fact here in the US, used tools (known branded) are more expensive than the new one.
For hobby use, as you say, these are plenty good!
I bought a very similar set of drills and they were GREAT... practice for sharpening drills.
A couple of comments......... your correct about the materials cheap ones are made of. Buy better quality from a good seller ( better value in the long run). I use Rennie tools ( just a pleased customer, no connection). Most people run these larger drill bits too fast. Try to use a bench drill. Hand drills are far too fast. At the end of the day you get what you pay for!
what you have there are industrial waste bits. these of QC rejects from some factory, and has collected them, to sell them off as "whatever"...
The dings, dents, and other surface blemishes are more than likely caused from them dropped into a massive bin of the exact same parts. at the end of the day, quality control sets them aside to be destroyed / remade, and someone's selling those off.
There's still hope though.
In this case, if you have a nice grinding stone, chuck the oversized drills, and grind and polish the outside diameter to the required size, then regrind all of the tips, and you'll be good to go. i.e.
Grind the following bit diameters:
23.90 -> 23.00 (or 23.50 if you like the half sizes)
18.50 -> 18.00 (or leave it be for the half size)
17.90 -> 17.00 (again, you can go to 17.50 for the half size)
13.80 -> 13.00 (yet another half size option)
Because the diameter dependencies are so minute, you can literally just grind these into tolerance, the webbing and flutes won't really matter much. Just be sure after you grind them to diameter, you back-relieve the flute edges, and tips so they don't rub
I also want to point out, that deceptively, it's easier to hand grind small drills than it is to grind larger drills. If you can, invest in a grinding jig, i kn ow it's not the "cool" thing to do, but you'll get a more even, more consistent cutting edge every time, and you'll waste a lot less drill material with each subsequent regrind.
Does anyone have any idea what “black book” he is using for feeds and speeds? Looks very useful.
Engineers black book. In metric of course
Happy New Year from Canada.