I really appreciate your ending. I 100% agree. The only thing I think is specifically a negative player trait is being inconsiderate of other's time at the table, and that can be part of any playstyle.
As a forever DM I wholeheartedly agree. You will spend all of your time figuring out and gaining the capability to one-shot a tarrasque. And then you will decide not to kill the tarrasque because "it's really just misunderstood" convince the temporary DM to let you tame it and rampage across the forgotten realms gloriously.
This is the first time I've seen a list built entirely around expressing the positive traits that each archetype brings to the table, and for that you get my sub. Very mature.
Exactly, that's why this excellent. Many a video will go on about the problems with these types of players (which is also fair, sometimes DMs need help managing a certain play style if it doesn't fit their own) but it's good to see the positive aspects highlighted.
I agree. A Superhero can be a whiny b*tch when things don't go their way. An Actor can be an attention hog to the exclusion of all others, possibly even the DM. A Storyteller might even want to force their interpretation of the setting on the DM. If the group is playing a pre-made campaign, they might read ahead to know what's coming, and prepare accordingly, even though the Character wouldn't know to do so in-game. A Minmaxer might ignore the setting, the rules' intent and even basic physics and common sense to push through their "perfect" build. A Scientist may not see things like the Peasant Railgun, the Hulking Hurler, the Omniscificer, or Pun Pun, the lvl 1 ascended god, as a fun thought experiment, but as a challenge to pull off in-game - and be surly when the DM won't let them do it. An Instigator may derail campaigns by doing random sh*t "for the lulz". Often the excuse "but I'm Chaotic Neutral" will be used. A Socialite may actively sabotage a campaign just to get the group to play something else.
I'm a combination of The Scientist and the untold 8th type, The Forever DM who has a list of over 100 characters that they would love to play if anyone else would DM for a change
Most people are terrified of playing the DM. You should ask them to do a one-shot set in their characters background-story.The other players will behave nicely, because nobody wants to break the game/continuity.
I've played with a DM who played a character that wasn't part of the party but played as NPCs (such as merchants, innkeepers, etc) and as certain enemies including rolling their own checks and things like that as well as personality & morality type. In fact he even created a separate character that became a boss type enemy.
I like being a player, but I also want to DM every once and a while. I may be VERY new to actually playing DND, but I would be happy to DM a one shot, or even a campaign for you. 😁😁
I had a really sweet moment during this video where the last archetype rolled around, and a player at my table who I thought wasn't really into it suddenly made a lot of sense. They're there, truly to hang out, play when its turn and otherwise vibe and enjoy the game just as much as the rest of us. And that brought a smile to my face and warmth to my cold, dead forever DM heart.
That's what I would call a quiet or calm extrovert person. Someone who loves being surrounded by people/friends, but won't bother taking most of the initiative, but will enjoy the vibe regardless.
I had a similar sweet moment but I think all my players might be the last Archetype. They all want to play but each doesn't do a lot of playing... it's a strange group but I love em
I have three players who are like this, I don't play the same campaign with all of them, and they all love me and give me feedback, and allow me to improve my dungeon master skills comfortably.
Addressing the “bad player” part at the end: Honestly, the only “bad player or DM” is someone who doesn’t respect or care if the others at the table are having fun. Whether an edgelord, murder hobo, emo-abuser, attention hog or other it all boils down to “as long as they are having fun or feeling powerful, who cares about anyone else”. Thanks for keeping it positive!
Dang mate you reminded me of one of my "young" friends, he would always want to be the leader and seeks attention and NEVER wants to lose a fight, very frustrating sometimes, but i still enjoy playing with him and my friends, since he is the only attention seeker so its fine i suppose...its a game after all
@@theladyivy I would say that “if they are a player who’s sole mission is to break your campaign” they “don’t respect or care if the others at the table are having fun”. I as the DM certainly wouldn’t be.
@@Quietu @theladyivy Ive been in a party where it felt like the sole purpose of the DM was to kill everyone in the party and/or not care about the players at table. Then Ive alslo had other players try their best to annoy, break, or purposely try to go off and do their own thing what the DM clearly had in mind. Also the ones that really didnt care about others in the party or having fun by trying to take all the gold or items etc.
The thing with flesh to stone and stone shape happened to me a couple years ago. We fought against a medusa and she petrified my character, then after the rest of the party beat the medusa they got a scroll of stone shape, which they used to shape my character as a stone shield and then they cast greater restoration on him. I got turned into a meat shield.
Being cursed as a perpetual DM, I love the Min-Maxers... it allows me to really get creative with the encounters and even adjust the narrative based on the massive strengths/weaknesses of those characters.
Same here. I have just found that I have to be careful to not get too focused on those to the exclusion of others nor to make encounters so difficult that only the min maxer can do anything.
Thanks for your service as forever DMs. I wonder if I’m a unique blend of player that y’all may have not encountered. I am the type of player who is a cross of a min maxer that makes sure both DM and players utilize all bonuses or detriments to every roll no matter the situation. I only maximize things that allow my party to survive and not on my individual ability. If you have encountered this type of player at least somewhat then I would like to hear y’all’s thoughts on them.
as a DM i do, as a player, i feel like min/maxers tend to have bad main character syndrome and it sometimes feels like your "fun character" gets put to the sidelines when you have a 30AC 50avg damage level 1 player at the table.
I'm starting to become a forever DM for both groups I play with. I'm sad I don't get to be a player, yet I do enjoy being behind the screen. Optimizers (which was the term I first learned to call Min-maxers) help me think outside the box to test if an encounter is too hard or not. It also teaches me how specific builds work as I learn faster by listening than by reading.
I think i would add "The Agent of Chaos" - They just want to watch the plans of others (The DM, The NPCs, The other PCs) burn. Whilst often problematic, if given a formal antagonist role by the DM (Secret spy, Agent of the Big Bad, or even secretly the Big Bad themselves) they can be a magnificent addition. They differ from The Actor because, whilst they will often create characters that lend themselves to chaos, their chaos extends to non-character interactions.
I think this is me, but a mildly controlled chaos. I have some experience as a DM, so when I play as a character I ask the DM if it's OK to push their boundaries and if not, then that's fine and I'll go be the storyteller player. The controlled chaos allows me to push the rules and the DM's creativity. I of course would also allow it in my game! I made a Twilight Human Cleric for a Strahd campaign and she messes with the balance of the game a bit haha. I try to not step on the toes of my fellow players though. The DM threw me into a doppelganger role for a few weeks and it was way too fun to scheme ways to kill the party. I almost succeeded with one death, but no dice as of yet. The doppelganger did poison a cask though, so that will probably come up eventually. :x
Obvious, most players will be a mix of several of these archetypes! When I was thinking about players, I came on the idea of grouping players based what they aim to find in a game of D&D. Essentially, their motivations and where they find the fun. That seemed a lot easier than basing it on allignement or stereotypes, but what type of player do you think you are?
I think I'm a Min Maxer; But I feel like the Socialite at times cause while I do enjoy making my character good at their job. Its not the be all end all as that is something I've learnt from watching other dnd groups/channels like you. :D I wouldn't mind hearing your take on some of the Other DnD 5e type TTRPGs out there. Which ones you like and which ones you don't ect.
I think I'm mostly the scientist, but with a touch of most of the other things too. I absolutely love using a combo of magic items with spells and abilities to make crazy things happen, such as having my shadow monk activate a daern's instant fortress over the head of a lich so it fell on him and crushed him instantly. Or when I used a chime of opening to unlatch the saddle of someone we were pursuing so he fell off his horse, before then shoving a potion of fear down his throat and casting detect thoughts on him in order to interrogate him. Being a scientist is so much fun for me.
With the last one shot I played I was absolutely the min-maxxer. The DM was not happy. But you were right about hexblade paladins, hell of a multiclass.
This was one of the best play type videos I've seen. And the sponsored content jingle is absolutely one of the best executed ads I've ever seen! My compliments to the creator on a job very well done indeed.
There are two types of minmaxers. The one focusing on having the most damage and the one trying to help the party. The hexblade warlock/divine soul sorcerer might outdamage the whole party but he can be the one who keeps a few slots for revivify.
I have a strong minmaxer streak in me, and several of my fellow players are much more story/RP driven, i had to adapt my play to make my minmaxing support the group RP so as not to become a bad player. I've found a fun solution to adapt is to minmax BAD ideas, my dwarven sorcerer focused on buffing his familiar in combat was comedy gold, AND when it worked it felt amazing (it often didn't work :P ).
Being a minmaxer can be a great way to engage the party if you go for combos that require other characters. I know that won't always work, but when it does it means you and your partner get to be amazing at the same time.
I’ve been nearly all of these players at some point, but I always come back to the scientist and the storyteller. I’m the designated note taker in every campaign, and it always feels impressive to pull out the name and backstory of an npc the party met two years ago!
I really appreciate the respect you showed to all the player types. There can be toxic expressions of each type, but ultimately there is no wrong player type to be if the group is having fun.
Been playing once a week for almost two decades with roughly the same group of people. I can say that in that time, each and every one of us has had traits from each and every type on this list and each of us exist with varying degrees of each time in them.
As someone organising their first DM campaign with completely new to the game players, this list is great, it helps me figure out a starting point to think about my players, their goals, and how to crave spaces for their interests in the story.
I love min max players, it’s so fun to try and challenge them, since they always know so much about the game that you almost HAVE to use homebrew to surprise them
I used to love them as well... Until I got a party of 4 of them (and 1 Storyteller) And, each of them specialised in a different aspect of the game And 2 of them got upset if they didn't get to do any of their big things, and 1 specialised in combat with no social, and the other specialized in social with barely any combat Got to a point where I had to pull out litteral Tanks to threaten the Combat character (sci fi setting) And the Social character, bassically couldn't fail any social rolls
As a DM and a borderline minmax player myself, I would say they are not a problem UNLESS they are put at a table with non-minmax players who don't care about things like DPR, action economy, etc... It can create a lot of tensions because they don't want the same thing out of the game. Some minmaxers don't understand that other players might do "sub-optimal" choices. Players who don't want to optimize their builds might not like that there is a dude able to pull out more than the rest of the group combined, and feel like all the math take them out of the story.
@@Canadian_Zac I LOVE that type of stuff. It turns it into a fun co-op but also competitive thing. I don’t think a DM should try to kill the players, but being able to know that you can afford to make mistakes because they’ll find a way to do it all anyway is great. Also I just like seeing how creative they are. Artificers are terrifying once they hit level 2
At first. Yeah. 100% was great. But It quickly got to a point that anything short of an anti-tank weapon, wouldn't even be physically able to hurt the combat player. Not even Exaggerating (Game has Soak armour, and he was at close to 20 against weapons that do d10+modifier dmg) And the social player was squishy enough that a regular gun could put him down in like 3-4 shots
Great video!! I kind of think of minmaxers as often "multiclassing" with other archetypes. Like, a minmaxer with a bit of scientist in them is terrifying to a DM but a miracle worker for a party of actors. A minmaxer with a bit of storyteller can actually be a fantastic roleplayer contrary to the trope of minmaxers. I think the dangerous combo comes from a minmaxer dipping into the superhero. That can make for a powerful aid as in the minmaxing scientist, but it also has the trap of being more likely to either skip out on roleplay or develop main-character syndrome, which are the primary complaints aimed at minmaxers. This is far from inevitable, but much like the instigator-to-murderhobo pipeline, it is a trap that many can fall into.
I feel like my characters have always had at least some sort of defining flaw. My first was a swashbuckler who was a compulsive liar. He couldn’t even be honest with those closest to him. (the other members of the party) He acted as party scout but often, the in-character way to decipher his reconnaissance, was to take almost the exact opposite as the truth.
I am very much the storyteller. I always am super into my character's journey, their motivations. Details, why they do what they do, and how they will respond to any given sotuation.
I heartily applaud your adaptation of Gilbert and Sullivan's "I am the Very Model of a Modern Major General." It was unexpected, surprising and had me laughing so loud my wife had to come in and squeegee my monitor. Well done, Sir. Well done. I raise a beer to you!
The last one could be explained as Twitch Chat. They are just happy to be there enjoying the show everyone else is performing, while being allowed to affect it and support the performers.
I like how you avoided focusing on negative player types, and I agree with you, that no player has to stay a negative player forever... same with DMing, a lot of players require practice and help to become better. PS. I love your commercial sponsored shorts, sometimes I listen to your stuff because they're just so great.
DnD shorts, Let me just say that I absolutely love your videos not only on UA-cam but as well as Instagram I think your information that you provide is brilliant and honestly more than anything just wholesome. Keep up the great work everything that you put is golden and I thoroughly enjoy it
One of my favorite ideas in D&D is testing how fast tenser's floating disk can move. Sure you can look at things like magical steeds loaded with enchantments and magical gear BUT those will hit limits- very fast limits, higher than you'll ever need, but limits nonetheless. A gnome on a wooden boom lift with a counterweight to hold them just outside of the follow range of the disk has no hard limits. The only questions are "how fast will your DM let you go, and how quickly will they let/force you to reach that speed"
I think I understand how you would want to do it, but the last sentence in the spell description kills that, I think: If you move more than 100 feet from the disk (typically because it can't *move around* an obstacle to follow you), the spell ends. (Emphasis added) If you would try to constrain it in a contraption like that, it would simply not move at all. The question would remain, however: If you trap a disk, move 90 feet away, and release it, would it instantly catch up to within 20 feet of you?
@@Smilley85 By follow range I meant the 20 foot distance between the caster and the disk, that the disk tries to stay within. Outside of weight reduction enchantments, I don't think it would be possible to hold a gnome past the 100 foot limit of the spell, not that it useful in the first place. As long as you don't try to enclose the disk with the crane/boom lift it should not regard the items placed on it as being different from any other heavy load within its carry capacity.
I would add 1 more type of player: the Helpful Evil, a player who wants to explore something that nobody can do in real life, the intrinsically evil man/woman who becomes a reluctant hero trough circumstance, helpful to the team but with a hidden second agenda which is not easy to notice. A player who thinks morality is the enemy of a truly free choice. This kind of a player may offer, in accordance with the DM, the possibility for a bad ending to the campaign, where the team replaces the evil they know with the evil they don't. Usually this kind of a player is also partially a storyteller (aiming for a long term plan) and a min/maxer because when the time comes he needs to be ready for a 1vs all (if he is discovered or is the final act).
I was once in a party where 2 players were hero players, one was a story teller, and one was a super amazing actor but also instigator. The actor hated combat in dnd however, which led to frustrations within the group, seeing as there were also players who lived for the combat.. I can't believe the group existed as long as it did.
I am definitely an instigator. Spending a half hour planning our attack is boring, let's just attack and hope for the best! I'm also a bit of a forever DM so... instigation is kind of necessary in that role 😅
As a Lizardfolk rogue, i definitely relate to "the actor" since i have high charisma (even if its very broken english) at the same time we've become "the hero" type as well. We've saved the others a few times by biteing the face off the enemies with sneak, flank, and hungry jaws. Godsdamn being a rogue is awsome!!
This kind of reminds me of a character I made. She is incredibly smart, charismatic, and witty. In order to win, she relies on manipulating the minds of her enemies, and she isn't afraid to even use her allies to achieve her goals. However, she is terrible with physical combat, and is incredibly vulnerable to physical damage. Her biggest flaw is in her martial capabilities, which is where she will use her allies to defend her if the need arises. She is basically my own version of the villainous mastermind, with several changes, and with a really long backstory.
I appreciate that none of these were an indictment of wrong ways to play or bad ways to play. All of those player types are valid and it's often a matter of adjusting your game to accommodate.
I have aspects of most of these, except the Instigator. I love story/roleplaying and like to create effective characters--and I don't see any conflict between those two passions, Back in 3.5, I was playing a Rogue, and one of our other players was definitely an Instigator. Show him a door, and he would barge through it. This actually worked out great for my combat-oriented Rogue--the Instigator would charge into a room and take a bunch of attacks, and my Rogue would dance along the periphery Sneak Attacking foes. I didn't really appreciate his value--in fact, I found him rather annoying--until he quit the game, and the party members stood there at an open door, all staring at each other as if to say, "Are you gonna go in first?"
Bravo on the ad by the way. That song is quite challenging as it is. Yet alone having to change up the words to fit both the product and D&D. Seriously, kudos to you fine sir. 👏
Spirit shroud or summon fey are better options IMHO - that's what I went with. Also took dispel magic & counterspell - invaluable. I actually didn't take fireball, but that's probably for the best because I ended up taking gravity sinkhole instead later.
@@slywolfe Not saying they’re not great choices, but the utility that you gain from Haste is undeniably strong. +2 AC, always useful especially for being nigh un-hittable. Advantage on Dex saves; yes please. Double bladesong movement of 80’ before dashing, check. Need to keep/out pace a flying dragon? Check. Stop an important NPC/creature from running away? Done. Stop the BBEG from throwing that switch/completing that ritual/etc., On it. Still make attacks/cast a powerful spell at an opportune moment AND down that potion of superior health? You betcha. Make that extra attack round over round, all day every day. Those can absolutely out dps haste, but you don’t take it for the dps. 👍🏻
@@chrishardy3439 the drawback is too high. Even slow is better to be completely honest. If you want something similar to haste but don't like mind whip, slow, or expedious retreat, I recommend ashardalon's stride. Or take the mobile feat, it's awesome. But it's hard to compete with vortex warp & mind whip, especially if you have meta magic adept for quickened & twinned spell. Hitting with mind sliver & mind whip or vortex warp in the same turn, or hitting two enemies with mind whip & moving two allies or enemies 180ft with vortex warp is amazing.
@@slywolfe Again; all those are great spells in specific circumstances, slow is a great spell and I keep it and haste prepared on my Bladesinger for use depending on the given situation. Mind whip is a great pseudo slow that deals damage as well, as long as the target fails the save.. and only lasts one round… and is a debuff to the enemy instead of a buff for you. Expeditious retreat is fine if all you need is speed AND don’t have need of your bonus action. Ashardalon’s Stride is also great; if you have a lot of enemies to use it against and no one/thing you need to avoid. Like I said in the original comment, Haste is a great spell overall for a lower level Bladesinger, that shouldn’t be overlooked. That’s it.
I have watched so many shorts from you. I liked them all for their energy and creativity. But today I actually subscribed because I just love the way you see the good in all these types of players. Hating on none and understanding that not only is each there for a different reason, it is also the same reason. Fun. It's that spirit that the game is built on, and that we could all use a reminder of every once and a while. Thanks for the vids mate. love your style :)
I love the energy of this overview, man. I totally agree with your take on there "not being a bad player-type". We need more of this in the community :)
I believe that the "problem" with the minmaxer is that they don't mesh well with storytellers, actors and superheroes unless they share some of the traits of these roles. A "true" minmaxer or munchkin always feels like a detriment to a narrative-focussed group because a lot of their comments tend to be immersion-breaking or harmful to the atmosphere. In a more dungeon-crawly campaign they really start to shine, though. "Soft" minmaxers that try to optimize within the narrative framework of their character tend to be much more accepted than their more mechanically aligned counterpart by these other roles.
@@williamwontiam3166 Most definitely. I'd also say that minmaxers can mesh well with scientists and socialite as long as all parties are respectful to each other. The scientist and minmaxer especially can learn a lot from each other. Scientists can learn how to make their weird ideas work better by optimizing their execution within the design space of their idea. And minmaxers can learn from scientists how off-meta choices can be just as viable, giving the right circumstances and potentially broaden their horizon in the long run.
@@williamwontiam3166 it can, but that's why I try and weed out min-maxers. That and they usually tend to also be rules lawyers (and as someone who still doesn't know a lot of rules I just don't want to deal with them) and meta gamers. I want all my players to have fun and feel like they have something to offer, more often than not min-maxers just suck all the fun out of the room.
I feel a lot of the people bitching about min-maxing never actually ran a game with one on the table. Its a social game, fucking TALK TO THEM if its that much of an issue
I play multiple characters, each entirely different, I love rp. I make sure every character isn't perfect, flaws make characters more realistic and fun. I'm the actor, ye..
I do the same but for the long game... I made a Reborn Shadow Sorcerer who's a total superhero and proudly claims to be an Devil Lord. But now I am making a Death Domain Cleric who simply wants to help as many souls find peace...
I love all these takes! The distinctions between them, the way they play around each other, and - most of all - the way that none of them are implicitly bad player types. Yes, some are probably a bit tougher to DM around, but I love the optimistic recognition that all the players are there to have fun in their own way! I love your videos mate, please keep up this most enjoyable content, I really appreciate it 😁😁
It's wonderful to be a fan of a creator that actually enjoys The Hobby well done sir exceptionally fun to watch I think this is one of my favorites you've ever made
This is great! I can really see myself in a few of the classes you mentioned, (often actor/storyteller with certain characters inspiring superhero) However, thie also reminds me that you would be a perfect person to answer a question I had: what is the difference between the divine classes? (Cleric, Paladin, Divine Warlock, and Divine Soul Sorcerer). And by that I mean in things like roleplay, interests, etc.
Cleric: worships god, god gives power. Paladin: swears an oath and follows it, a entity takes notice and gives them power for that oath (they don't worships that entity). Celestial warlock: makes pact with angel in extange for power (think devil pact but with angle) Divine Soul Sorcerer: a family member banged an angel so you now have angel power in your blood.
@@matan8074 please continue, cause the magical classes is where I get confused. Added Paladin cause people would complain, but what would drive a character to make a pact with a God or become it's priest?
@@Maninawig added the rest. Cleric: same as any real world priest but the god might give them magic. Warlock: Making a pact with angel will probably be the same as making any other pact, typicly power/ wealth/ love or some other worlds gain (selfishly or selflessly).
@@matan8074 I think you are missing something. If clerics a priests given powers, then why are they not divine soul sorcerers? If they are gifted powers as a boom, then why are they not divine warlocks (as a Warlock pact can be made without concent)? And for that case, if a priest makes an oath to uphold a god's will, do they become paladins or are they still clerics?
@@Maninawig TLDR is at the end. Think of the sorcerer more like you've inherited the magic; you may not believe in anything or know why but that divine blood is still in there giving you your magical powers. In terms of the difference between the warlock and cleric it's a but harder so bear with this. You could certainly argue that one could exist without the other and vice versa (it is D&D after all (e.g. why does ranger exist when you could just multiclass fighter and druid? (as a note I really like the ranger class))) but there is a subtle difference between them; this is who provides them their power. The cleric receives their power from a literal god; whilst the warlock receives it from a Celestial being like an Empyrean or Kirin (Celestial beings tend to be good, so enforced one sided deals, like you mentioned about, are less likely). You should work with your DM for whichever you feel is more appropriate for the character you wanted to play, there is no hard and fast rule in a roleplaying game as to how you must act because character logic, class and background (you could be a character who thinks they are a trickery domain cleric but actually made a pact with an archfey who was just looking to have some fun...). TLDR: Cleric- gets powers from literal god's (would have to work with DM for a game without god's) Celestial Warlock- gets powers from a celestial source (rather than divine). Divine soul sorc: inherited blood (usually) Most importantly have fun with your character ideas. Thank you for reading.
I am a proud storyteller. I am here for story in dnd, the combat is just the cherry on top. It's so much fun! I've finally joined a proper campaign where roleplay and character arcs and backstories come up and it's the most fun I've ever had! My poor dm has to deal with my constant theorizing and in-world prodding for answers and always being a step ahead and it's too much fun, especially because he always has answers and doesn't ever seem unpreparedxD I figured out BBEG's rough plans about 4-5 sessions in and went down a whole rabbit hole on the group chat and I'm 99% certain I either got it right or was on the right track even a few sessions later. I take notes like my life depends on it and whenever the party forgets a detail, I'm quick to have the answer. It's so much fun and I wish my players that I DMed for were more like this sometimes😂😭 (although I have to admit, min-maxing is kinda fun xD It's for one-shots only since story doesn't matter in most of them and we're there just for a fun adventure and difficult combat)
I really thought were going to end up with the "rules Lawyer" - the one player type who can single-handedly destroy a game faster than anything else - except maybe the "no-show" player.
About minmaxing. I’ve never actually played it but I told the two people I play with (they take turns dm/dmpc-ing) about this: thri-kreen 2 main arms holding shields, 2 sub arms holding rapiers, dual wielding feat. In my defense I wasn’t planning to play it I just wanted to see how broken I could make a character. They both still threatened to kill me if I actually tried playing it though. I have begun planning my counter attack!!!
I feel like I fall somewhere between the Storyteller, Scientist, and Socialite. I really enjoy telling and taking part in the story. I have lots of fun figuring out what is and isn't possible in each world and at each table. I love just chilling and playing the game with friends. I don't know what you'd call it, but I definitely multi-class in these three player types.
Yes, I did notice that you didn't talk about any "bad" archetypes. I was curious about that. After a moment to reflect, I realized you had a point. All the archetypes are just different ways to have fun; different players with different priorities when playing the game.
IMO, the best description of types of players, you could feel the emotional weight of the years of playing D&D with friends and having fun all together. Dungeon dudes have great production quality too, but they chose unnecessarily lengthy format of videos which then require less work to make. Once again thank you DnD Shorts for this great experience of a video.
I find I have the most fun with my friends who are all closest to the actor/storyteller archetypes just like me. The thing that makes it so special, though, is they’re never afraid of development, in-character conflict, or building each other up. They’re here to play a game, sure, but that game cannot be played without the others at the table. I love when they challenge each other, share with each other, and best of all, set each other up for character development. I am so honored to know such intelligent and artistic contributors to our beautiful collaborative narrative. To my awesome players: you guys are the best!
To date this is my favorite of your videos... This is one of the neatest "Types of Players" Videos I have yet seen, and the first one I am aware of that mentions what you call the Scientist. Very well done... very funny and well... Subscribed!
Our table is an interesting mix of these! While everyone's got a bit of more than one in them, our DM is a Storyteller (with a good chunk of minmaxer that comes out when he's a player), plus we've got an Actor (who also takes turns dm-ing), an Instigator, a Scientist, a Storyteller with more than a bit of superhero left in them (that's me), and a min-maxer who is also the socialite (he loves to create broken characters and combos, but never roleplays, doesn't really care about the story, and is just here to have fun with everyone else. Also, he brings food for everyone).
As a scientist(the archetype, not profession) I can say that when my friend said if I join his campaign he will give a magic dagger that makes a 60ft wind blade, I was so close to becoming unkillable
My Superhero character: A ridiculously strong level 30 earth Genasi weapon master back in 3.5. Carried 4 custom made bastard swords, all of which were +3 and named and did sonic damage, but otherwise had slightly different enchantments on them 2 tower shields, 3 suits of full plate, had power attack, improved power attack, expertise, improved expertise, cleave, great cleave and whirlwind attack. Take into consideration that he had items that gave DR and Regeneration, and this guy was a beast. He once had a duel with an Arcane Archer that lasted a good 5 or 10 minutes. That's game minutes, not IRL minutes, so 50-100 rounds. His shield looked like a prop from that scene in 300.
I'm tragically probably not going to be able to play DnD for a while, but I'm still going through your vids as a newbie because your attitude while explaining things even as polarizing as player archetypes is very comforting and doesn't make me feel terrible for my choices or what kind of player I am ( I appear to be an Instigator, and my character Tadeusz has sort of become the de facto leader of the party because of it) Anyway, thank you for being a safe and welcoming place for me to come and try to learn more about DnD so I can be a better player. I hope that I'll be able to put everything I've learned from binging your channel to good use soon.
I think I've been a Storyteller for 90% of my time playing this game. At first I tried to be a Superhero, and just dropped a fighter into a campaign with a horse-riding motif that I thought would be fun to play, but I didn't think about his personality or backstory at all. In the end, I quickly realized that my the D&D campaigns of my family circle are *mostly* roleplay. I went into the game thinking I was going to play Final Fantasy, but it wasn't like that at all. There are so many players in my family group that the game moves at a snail's pace, and I got so mind-numbingly bored that I considered just quitting. My character also wasn't as good as I thought on paper, which led to me cheating in desperation and getting caught. Now, every time I create a character, I think of a detailed backstory and playstye that gives me stuff to do outside of combat. I often choose races and backgrounds that gave me a complicated ancestry or home-life, which gives me a good baseline to start making their personality and story arc. Most of all, I love playing around with spells and races. I love seeing the cool stories I can make as a player in this fantasy world, and playing a character who's just as enthusiastic to explore it as I am.
I'm a Storyteller/Instigator.... which, as our current DM pointed out, tends to be the role I take on no matter what type of character I play. We have an actual instigator in our group as well, but this takes off the murder-hobo edge just a tad bit.
Definitely actor/scientist. And you're spot on with the classes. For years I would only play bard/wizard/artificer. Lately I've been specifically trying to move out of that and have been having a lot of fun staying an actor/scientist but playing barbs/paladins
Him: "and now The Instigator; the Leroy Jenkins of D&D" Me: Ohhh Now I underestand Erland, his totally an Instigator. Thanks to instigators like him we get to see funny and unespected situations that otherwise wouldn't happened.
I’m a combination of instigator and the storyteller. I started DnD with friends about a year ago, and it really means a lot to me now. I also love to play my favourite character and feel a bit empty when I’m not playing as her. Yes, I am DnD addicted.
Last night, my players got into a big out of character argument and everyone left the table upset. I'm sending them this video to remind them that everyone comes to the game from a different angle, and we're all here to have fun. Thank you.
I've never been a superhero, my first character was a Beast Master Ranger sheep farmer who had a problem with starting hobbies. Like fly fishing, or philately.
Your way of delivering Ads is interesting and I enjoy watching them. I hope your advertising partners appreciate your work. I actually watch your ads instead of fast forwarding because they are ALSO content. A+
I’m totally the actor but I get very invested in my characters and npcs . I love your point about failure. Don’t be afraid of it! It can open up entire storylines that can be very rewarding.
A nice video, and a welcome addition to your catalogue! Been watching more and more D&D videos ever since my work schedule forced me out of my group, and I've been binging a lot of your videos lately. Thanks for all your work! As for your question, you're right that I've experienced shades of each of these types, but I think my default is Socialite and Superhero, and I try to embrace the others depending on what I want to do, which probably makes me a poor man's MinMaxer.
I’m not entirely sure if it’s also done somewhere else but I just realized where I’ve seen the flying whale background that you use and it brings back memories from being a teen and pre teen lol and it’s nice to look at while listening to you talk
Something I like about this video was that I saw myself and the other players in my party in all of these, none of us are particularly the "instigator", the one one close to a minmaxer is me, and I don't know nearly enough about the game, and a lot of us storytell/act, but we're never just one. It's nice that our party is filled with unique people that don't fit into just one archetype. No, not even the "Forever D.M.". I was actually going through that for a while, until I forced one of my friends to do it. Turns out, he loves it!
My old D&D group was formed by a minmaxer barbarian, an instigator ranger, a superhero rogue and a storyteller druid(me). Things didn't usually go as planned, but it was a fun campaign.
I’m a mix of all of these lol. I play literal superhero’s, love rp, have a vague story I want to tell with my character but I’m mostly there to drink in the world, I’m guilty of min-maxing but mostly because I’ve made so many classes for fun it’s hard not to. My passion is being a scientist and I looove to tackle encounters in unique ways preferably trying to talk my way out of a bad situation if I can help it, and I’m an extrovert so I love just being around people having fun. I’m a bit of an instigator but only at appropriate times and never because I’m bored. More like if it’s reasonable my character would do something and it’s not going to ruin everyone else’s fun I’ll probably do it even if it’s a mistake. I love to wander off by myself, and in the amber temple I destroyed a crypt in CoS because both my character and me thought it was like a chrysalis incubating an evil undead (my character hated undead more than anything). Imagine her, my, and my party’s surprise when a lich popped out and started trying to kill me. It did set up that lich as the bbeg for our current campaign though so I think it wasn’t too bad of a thing to do in hindsight lol. I think my biggest flaw, as everyone in my group always says, is that I don’t make original characters. I like to take characters from other works of fiction and play them in D&D 😔
So many have posted it already but great enthusiasm and love for everyone at the table! Need to try and balance for everyone is what makes a truly fun DM. So long as I don't have to take them all shopping🙂
I know that my Big Brother and I like to do different roles. My brother prefers a simple job - be the tank to protect, be the smasher to damage, although, his first guy, which I built for him, using his own preferences, turned out to do Tank, Striker, and, funny enough, Face - Fey Wanderer Variant Human Merchant Ranger, with Expertise on Persuasion (Charisma was the dump stat!), and he must be able to easily relate to the character, mainly because make-believe is a little tricky for him to do. That being said, Big Brother has listened to an important piece of advice - treat the NPCs as if they were real people - as a PHB/Tasha's Ranger in the Acquisitions Incorporated adventure, his Favorite Enemy was Goblinoids - the party encountered a number of them during the campaign - he was able to talk his way out of every fight, because he knew their language and understood them. Currently, he's an Orc Soldier Fighter, and again, wants to pull Tank duty - I plan to make him a Cavalier, so that he can pull it off very well. Me, I'm willing to try any role - I've done Tank as a Champion Human Soldier fighter, some Magic/Face as a Draconic Bloodline Noble Human Sorcerer, Tank again, as a Yuan-Ti Pureblood Criminal Vengeance Paladin - Now I'm doing Sneak/Face as a Noble Dhampir Tabaxi Rogue, hopefully as a Swashbuckler.
If I was to describe myself as any of these types of players it would most likely be the scientist. The campaign that I'm currently playing in is a Star Wars 5E conversion and my first character was a Class IV battle droid fighter build which I spent a lot of time customizing with different augmentations and gadgets, after he turned evil and I relinquished control of him to the DM I made a Kakarodon (shark person) berserker build who is a Madolorian. I just love pushing the boundaries and shattering everyone's expectations. Especially the DM's.
My min-max character: A level 3 Veldalkan with 2 levels of barbarian and 1 level of cleric. We were going into death house for a one shot and I thought "how many d&d shorts can I fit into a single level 3 character, excluding Hexblade stuff because Hexblade is my current main" so I went with survival King and life domain with druid magic Adept (because my DM gave us a bonus feat) and I picked up goodberry and SHILLELAGH! So, I had a magic stick for dealing damage and magic berries for healing people. And I could rage, which I put to great use against a Grick, a horde of zombies, and a mimic in the basement all in one fight.
I’m probably closest to scientist which is why my favorite class is Warlock. They’re so versatile and I love exploring builds with different combinations of subclasses, races, spells, invocations, and feats to find new fun synergies
My most memorable session was with two minmax, one scientist, and three Leroy's. The Leroy's wiped in the first 10 minutes of the session and the two minmax soloed the rest to meet up with the scientist after the session ended.
My core group for most of my time playing was just me and my two roommates. We were a DM that played an actor DMPC character. Me a min- maxer/super hero with some story teller added in. And our other roommate that was an instigator with ungodly dice rolls/luck (in game and out). That led to a lot of interesting encounters. Mostly ending with the DM' S DMPC Character almost dying every encounter.
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your performance of the old Tom Lehrer song was brilliant!
Honestly this was my favorite add. How long did it take you to write it???
I'm also here to congratulate you on the performance of that song! Bravo!
Nat 20 performance roll. You need to charge more for your ads.
Hey I recognize that product! That song was AWESOME!!!
You forgot archetype #8: The Unhinged Forever-DM finally getting to play and their character makes you question if they are OK
Oh, yeah! Been there, done that! Almost had a DM rage quit over shenanigans! Was hilarious!
Well the unhinged DM could be any of these player types taken to its illogical extreme.
Unhinged sounds like a fun way to play.
I really appreciate your ending. I 100% agree. The only thing I think is specifically a negative player trait is being inconsiderate of other's time at the table, and that can be part of any playstyle.
As a forever DM I wholeheartedly agree. You will spend all of your time figuring out and gaining the capability to one-shot a tarrasque. And then you will decide not to kill the tarrasque because "it's really just misunderstood" convince the temporary DM to let you tame it and rampage across the forgotten realms gloriously.
This is the first time I've seen a list built entirely around expressing the positive traits that each archetype brings to the table, and for that you get my sub. Very mature.
I agree with you take on bad players, any of those archtypes can be toxic and disruptive, but the archtype itself isn't.
J
Exactly, that's why this excellent. Many a video will go on about the problems with these types of players (which is also fair, sometimes DMs need help managing a certain play style if it doesn't fit their own) but it's good to see the positive aspects highlighted.
I agree.
A Superhero can be a whiny b*tch when things don't go their way.
An Actor can be an attention hog to the exclusion of all others, possibly even the DM.
A Storyteller might even want to force their interpretation of the setting on the DM. If the group is playing a pre-made campaign, they might read ahead to know what's coming, and prepare accordingly, even though the Character wouldn't know to do so in-game.
A Minmaxer might ignore the setting, the rules' intent and even basic physics and common sense to push through their "perfect" build.
A Scientist may not see things like the Peasant Railgun, the Hulking Hurler, the Omniscificer, or Pun Pun, the lvl 1 ascended god, as a fun thought experiment, but as a challenge to pull off in-game - and be surly when the DM won't let them do it.
An Instigator may derail campaigns by doing random sh*t "for the lulz". Often the excuse "but I'm Chaotic Neutral" will be used.
A Socialite may actively sabotage a campaign just to get the group to play something else.
I agree there isn't a bad type of player just people are are not fun to play with
exactly what i was thinking
I'm a combination of The Scientist and the untold 8th type, The Forever DM who has a list of over 100 characters that they would love to play if anyone else would DM for a change
Most people are terrified of playing the DM. You should ask them to do a one-shot set in their characters background-story.The other players will behave nicely, because nobody wants to break the game/continuity.
I've played with a DM who played a character that wasn't part of the party but played as NPCs (such as merchants, innkeepers, etc) and as certain enemies including rolling their own checks and things like that as well as personality & morality type. In fact he even created a separate character that became a boss type enemy.
I'm a storyteller and scientist
My party has the opposite problem, too many dms. We have three campaigns happening at the moment.
EDIT: 4 now smh
I like being a player, but I also want to DM every once and a while. I may be VERY new to actually playing DND, but I would be happy to DM a one shot, or even a campaign for you. 😁😁
I had a really sweet moment during this video where the last archetype rolled around, and a player at my table who I thought wasn't really into it suddenly made a lot of sense. They're there, truly to hang out, play when its turn and otherwise vibe and enjoy the game just as much as the rest of us. And that brought a smile to my face and warmth to my cold, dead forever DM heart.
That's what I would call a quiet or calm extrovert person. Someone who loves being surrounded by people/friends, but won't bother taking most of the initiative, but will enjoy the vibe regardless.
I had a similar sweet moment but I think all my players might be the last Archetype. They all want to play but each doesn't do a lot of playing... it's a strange group but I love em
I have three players who are like this, I don't play the same campaign with all of them, and they all love me and give me feedback, and allow me to improve my dungeon master skills comfortably.
Only problem is none of them can tell when dnd is supposed to be fun, so their feedback is not very helpful.
@@EngLhag Yep, plenty of those around, always had one in my playing or dm group. In Critical Role its Ashley Johnson, certainly in season 1.
Addressing the “bad player” part at the end: Honestly, the only “bad player or DM” is someone who doesn’t respect or care if the others at the table are having fun. Whether an edgelord, murder hobo, emo-abuser, attention hog or other it all boils down to “as long as they are having fun or feeling powerful, who cares about anyone else”. Thanks for keeping it positive!
Dang mate you reminded me of one of my "young" friends, he would always want to be the leader and seeks attention and NEVER wants to lose a fight, very frustrating sometimes, but i still enjoy playing with him and my friends, since he is the only attention seeker so its fine i suppose...its a game after all
What about the player whose sole mission is to break your campaign? Lol
@@theladyivy I would say that “if they are a player who’s sole mission is to break your campaign” they “don’t respect or care if the others at the table are having fun”. I as the DM certainly wouldn’t be.
@@Quietu Exactly!
@@Quietu @theladyivy Ive been in a party where it felt like the sole purpose of the DM was to kill everyone in the party and/or not care about the players at table. Then Ive alslo had other players try their best to annoy, break, or purposely try to go off and do their own thing what the DM clearly had in mind. Also the ones that really didnt care about others in the party or having fun by trying to take all the gold or items etc.
The thing with flesh to stone and stone shape happened to me a couple years ago. We fought against a medusa and she petrified my character, then after the rest of the party beat the medusa they got a scroll of stone shape, which they used to shape my character as a stone shield and then they cast greater restoration on him. I got turned into a meat shield.
That's a rotten thing to do to a friend for a pun.
All tomorrows type shit
That is a shitty thing to do unless you have them permission to do that
@@jerrymcbride5589 I was cool with it, was pretty funny and they did turn me back later
And that’s how you know those are true friends. The best of friends will have no mercy towards each other
I really like how this vid is subtly telling viewers to always look for the positive contributions any player brings to the table
Being cursed as a perpetual DM, I love the Min-Maxers... it allows me to really get creative with the encounters and even adjust the narrative based on the massive strengths/weaknesses of those characters.
Same here. I have just found that I have to be careful to not get too focused on those to the exclusion of others nor to make encounters so difficult that only the min maxer can do anything.
I get to hurl titans and fucking gods at them and make them feel awesome for coming out of it
Thanks for your service as forever DMs. I wonder if I’m a unique blend of player that y’all may have not encountered. I am the type of player who is a cross of a min maxer that makes sure both DM and players utilize all bonuses or detriments to every roll no matter the situation. I only maximize things that allow my party to survive and not on my individual ability. If you have encountered this type of player at least somewhat then I would like to hear y’all’s thoughts on them.
as a DM i do, as a player, i feel like min/maxers tend to have bad main character syndrome
and it sometimes feels like your "fun character" gets put to the sidelines when you have a 30AC 50avg damage level 1 player at the table.
I'm starting to become a forever DM for both groups I play with. I'm sad I don't get to be a player, yet I do enjoy being behind the screen. Optimizers (which was the term I first learned to call Min-maxers) help me think outside the box to test if an encounter is too hard or not. It also teaches me how specific builds work as I learn faster by listening than by reading.
I think i would add "The Agent of Chaos" - They just want to watch the plans of others (The DM, The NPCs, The other PCs) burn. Whilst often problematic, if given a formal antagonist role by the DM (Secret spy, Agent of the Big Bad, or even secretly the Big Bad themselves) they can be a magnificent addition. They differ from The Actor because, whilst they will often create characters that lend themselves to chaos, their chaos extends to non-character interactions.
So a bard with the lucky feat...
Yeah, I'm about to give up on and quit a game because we have one of these turds in our party.
I think this is me, but a mildly controlled chaos. I have some experience as a DM, so when I play as a character I ask the DM if it's OK to push their boundaries and if not, then that's fine and I'll go be the storyteller player. The controlled chaos allows me to push the rules and the DM's creativity. I of course would also allow it in my game! I made a Twilight Human Cleric for a Strahd campaign and she messes with the balance of the game a bit haha. I try to not step on the toes of my fellow players though. The DM threw me into a doppelganger role for a few weeks and it was way too fun to scheme ways to kill the party. I almost succeeded with one death, but no dice as of yet. The doppelganger did poison a cask though, so that will probably come up eventually. :x
I think the Agent of Chaos probably exists underneath the Instigator banner.
One of the absolute worst player types unless utilised and controlled strictly by a very competent DM.
Obvious, most players will be a mix of several of these archetypes! When I was thinking about players, I came on the idea of grouping players based what they aim to find in a game of D&D. Essentially, their motivations and where they find the fun. That seemed a lot easier than basing it on allignement or stereotypes, but what type of player do you think you are?
First
I think I'm a Min Maxer; But I feel like the Socialite at times cause while I do enjoy making my character good at their job. Its not the be all end all as that is something I've learnt from watching other dnd groups/channels like you. :D
I wouldn't mind hearing your take on some of the Other DnD 5e type TTRPGs out there. Which ones you like and which ones you don't ect.
I think I'm mostly the scientist, but with a touch of most of the other things too. I absolutely love using a combo of magic items with spells and abilities to make crazy things happen, such as having my shadow monk activate a daern's instant fortress over the head of a lich so it fell on him and crushed him instantly. Or when I used a chime of opening to unlatch the saddle of someone we were pursuing so he fell off his horse, before then shoving a potion of fear down his throat and casting detect thoughts on him in order to interrogate him. Being a scientist is so much fun for me.
With the last one shot I played I was absolutely the min-maxxer. The DM was not happy. But you were right about hexblade paladins, hell of a multiclass.
Instigator myself. But there are parts of me in all of those.
This was one of the best play type videos I've seen. And the sponsored content jingle is absolutely one of the best executed ads I've ever seen! My compliments to the creator on a job very well done indeed.
There are two types of minmaxers. The one focusing on having the most damage and the one trying to help the party.
The hexblade warlock/divine soul sorcerer might outdamage the whole party but he can be the one who keeps a few slots for revivify.
I have a strong minmaxer streak in me, and several of my fellow players are much more story/RP driven, i had to adapt my play to make my minmaxing support the group RP so as not to become a bad player. I've found a fun solution to adapt is to minmax BAD ideas, my dwarven sorcerer focused on buffing his familiar in combat was comedy gold, AND when it worked it felt amazing (it often didn't work :P ).
@@GuatemalanJedi Becoming the scientist.
Being a minmaxer can be a great way to engage the party if you go for combos that require other characters. I know that won't always work, but when it does it means you and your partner get to be amazing at the same time.
And then there's that one guy who makes the super fast to backseat cuz he "gotta go fast".
What about the one that is trying to survive ? : |
I’ve been nearly all of these players at some point, but I always come back to the scientist and the storyteller. I’m the designated note taker in every campaign, and it always feels impressive to pull out the name and backstory of an npc the party met two years ago!
I really appreciate the respect you showed to all the player types. There can be toxic expressions of each type, but ultimately there is no wrong player type to be if the group is having fun.
Wow, imagine someone having the hot take that having fun, regardless of how you have fun, is a good thing. Love the video man!
Been playing once a week for almost two decades with roughly the same group of people. I can say that in that time, each and every one of us has had traits from each and every type on this list and each of us exist with varying degrees of each time in them.
As someone organising their first DM campaign with completely new to the game players, this list is great, it helps me figure out a starting point to think about my players, their goals, and how to crave spaces for their interests in the story.
I'm definitely the storyteller type. I love my character, and I want him to have his full character arc if I can help it.
I can't tell youhow much I love the fact you didn't bring up bad players or traits often assigned to them
I love the positivity on this channel
I love min max players, it’s so fun to try and challenge them, since they always know so much about the game that you almost HAVE to use homebrew to surprise them
I used to love them as well... Until I got a party of 4 of them (and 1 Storyteller)
And, each of them specialised in a different aspect of the game
And 2 of them got upset if they didn't get to do any of their big things, and 1 specialised in combat with no social, and the other specialized in social with barely any combat
Got to a point where I had to pull out litteral Tanks to threaten the Combat character (sci fi setting)
And the Social character, bassically couldn't fail any social rolls
Its funny because the solution is almost always nets.
As a DM and a borderline minmax player myself, I would say they are not a problem UNLESS they are put at a table with non-minmax players who don't care about things like DPR, action economy, etc...
It can create a lot of tensions because they don't want the same thing out of the game. Some minmaxers don't understand that other players might do "sub-optimal" choices. Players who don't want to optimize their builds might not like that there is a dude able to pull out more than the rest of the group combined, and feel like all the math take them out of the story.
@@Canadian_Zac I LOVE that type of stuff. It turns it into a fun co-op but also competitive thing. I don’t think a DM should try to kill the players, but being able to know that you can afford to make mistakes because they’ll find a way to do it all anyway is great. Also I just like seeing how creative they are. Artificers are terrifying once they hit level 2
At first. Yeah. 100% was great.
But
It quickly got to a point that anything short of an anti-tank weapon, wouldn't even be physically able to hurt the combat player. Not even Exaggerating (Game has Soak armour, and he was at close to 20 against weapons that do d10+modifier dmg)
And the social player was squishy enough that a regular gun could put him down in like 3-4 shots
Great video!!
I kind of think of minmaxers as often "multiclassing" with other archetypes. Like, a minmaxer with a bit of scientist in them is terrifying to a DM but a miracle worker for a party of actors. A minmaxer with a bit of storyteller can actually be a fantastic roleplayer contrary to the trope of minmaxers. I think the dangerous combo comes from a minmaxer dipping into the superhero. That can make for a powerful aid as in the minmaxing scientist, but it also has the trap of being more likely to either skip out on roleplay or develop main-character syndrome, which are the primary complaints aimed at minmaxers. This is far from inevitable, but much like the instigator-to-murderhobo pipeline, it is a trap that many can fall into.
I feel like my characters have always had at least some sort of defining flaw. My first was a swashbuckler who was a compulsive liar. He couldn’t even be honest with those closest to him. (the other members of the party) He acted as party scout but often, the in-character way to decipher his reconnaissance, was to take almost the exact opposite as the truth.
I am very much the storyteller. I always am super into my character's journey, their motivations. Details, why they do what they do, and how they will respond to any given sotuation.
I heartily applaud your adaptation of Gilbert and Sullivan's "I am the Very Model of a Modern Major General." It was unexpected, surprising and had me laughing so loud my wife had to come in and squeegee my monitor. Well done, Sir. Well done. I raise a beer to you!
The last one could be explained as Twitch Chat. They are just happy to be there enjoying the show everyone else is performing, while being allowed to affect it and support the performers.
I like how you avoided focusing on negative player types, and I agree with you, that no player has to stay a negative player forever... same with DMing, a lot of players require practice and help to become better.
PS. I love your commercial sponsored shorts, sometimes I listen to your stuff because they're just so great.
DnD shorts, Let me just say that I absolutely love your videos not only on UA-cam but as well as Instagram I think your information that you provide is brilliant and honestly more than anything just wholesome. Keep up the great work everything that you put is golden and I thoroughly enjoy it
One of my favorite ideas in D&D is testing how fast tenser's floating disk can move.
Sure you can look at things like magical steeds loaded with enchantments and magical gear BUT those will hit limits- very fast limits, higher than you'll ever need, but limits nonetheless.
A gnome on a wooden boom lift with a counterweight to hold them just outside of the follow range of the disk has no hard limits. The only questions are "how fast will your DM let you go, and how quickly will they let/force you to reach that speed"
I think I understand how you would want to do it, but the last sentence in the spell description kills that, I think:
If you move more than 100 feet from the disk (typically because it can't *move around* an obstacle to follow you), the spell ends. (Emphasis added)
If you would try to constrain it in a contraption like that, it would simply not move at all.
The question would remain, however: If you trap a disk, move 90 feet away, and release it, would it instantly catch up to within 20 feet of you?
@@Smilley85 By follow range I meant the 20 foot distance between the caster and the disk, that the disk tries to stay within. Outside of weight reduction enchantments, I don't think it would be possible to hold a gnome past the 100 foot limit of the spell, not that it useful in the first place. As long as you don't try to enclose the disk with the crane/boom lift it should not regard the items placed on it as being different from any other heavy load within its carry capacity.
I would add 1 more type of player: the Helpful Evil, a player who wants to explore something that nobody can do in real life, the intrinsically evil man/woman who becomes a reluctant hero trough circumstance, helpful to the team but with a hidden second agenda which is not easy to notice.
A player who thinks morality is the enemy of a truly free choice.
This kind of a player may offer, in accordance with the DM, the possibility for a bad ending to the campaign, where the team replaces the evil they know with the evil they don't.
Usually this kind of a player is also partially a storyteller (aiming for a long term plan) and a min/maxer because when the time comes he needs to be ready for a 1vs all (if he is discovered or is the final act).
I was once in a party where 2 players were hero players, one was a story teller, and one was a super amazing actor but also instigator. The actor hated combat in dnd however, which led to frustrations within the group, seeing as there were also players who lived for the combat.. I can't believe the group existed as long as it did.
Ok, finally went for the patreon. You're just too good. I'm excited to see your takes on the upcoming dnd revisions!
I min-max but only within the confines of what I want for my character, which isn’t always the most optimal lmao, and often isn’t
The sponsored content was actually so good, first time I’ve seen sponsored content I genuinely wanted to rewatch it
In my experience most players embody several of these characteristics at once in varying amounts.
this was such an optimistic take on types of dnd players it made me happy to see. even the ad was fun
I am definitely an instigator. Spending a half hour planning our attack is boring, let's just attack and hope for the best!
I'm also a bit of a forever DM so... instigation is kind of necessary in that role 😅
I am a cross of the Storyteller & the Scientist with a TINY bit of The Min-Maxer & The Instigator too.
As a Lizardfolk rogue, i definitely relate to "the actor" since i have high charisma (even if its very broken english) at the same time we've become "the hero" type as well. We've saved the others a few times by biteing the face off the enemies with sneak, flank, and hungry jaws. Godsdamn being a rogue is awsome!!
Made an ad enjoyable? Has a cool way of saying “wow”? AND made a great video? Way to make my day significantly better, ty!!
This kind of reminds me of a character I made. She is incredibly smart, charismatic, and witty. In order to win, she relies on manipulating the minds of her enemies, and she isn't afraid to even use her allies to achieve her goals. However, she is terrible with physical combat, and is incredibly vulnerable to physical damage. Her biggest flaw is in her martial capabilities, which is where she will use her allies to defend her if the need arises. She is basically my own version of the villainous mastermind, with several changes, and with a really long backstory.
I appreciate that none of these were an indictment of wrong ways to play or bad ways to play. All of those player types are valid and it's often a matter of adjusting your game to accommodate.
I have aspects of most of these, except the Instigator. I love story/roleplaying and like to create effective characters--and I don't see any conflict between those two passions,
Back in 3.5, I was playing a Rogue, and one of our other players was definitely an Instigator. Show him a door, and he would barge through it. This actually worked out great for my combat-oriented Rogue--the Instigator would charge into a room and take a bunch of attacks, and my Rogue would dance along the periphery Sneak Attacking foes.
I didn't really appreciate his value--in fact, I found him rather annoying--until he quit the game, and the party members stood there at an open door, all staring at each other as if to say, "Are you gonna go in first?"
Bravo on the ad by the way. That song is quite challenging as it is. Yet alone having to change up the words to fit both the product and D&D. Seriously, kudos to you fine sir. 👏
As a predominant min-maxer; Haste on a lower level Bladesinger can be an amazing spell. 👍🏻
Spirit shroud or summon fey are better options IMHO - that's what I went with. Also took dispel magic & counterspell - invaluable. I actually didn't take fireball, but that's probably for the best because I ended up taking gravity sinkhole instead later.
@@slywolfe Not saying they’re not great choices, but the utility that you gain from Haste is undeniably strong.
+2 AC, always useful especially for being nigh un-hittable. Advantage on Dex saves; yes please.
Double bladesong movement of 80’ before dashing, check. Need to keep/out pace a flying dragon? Check. Stop an important NPC/creature from running away? Done. Stop the BBEG from throwing that switch/completing that ritual/etc., On it. Still make attacks/cast a powerful spell at an opportune moment AND down that potion of superior health? You betcha. Make that extra attack round over round, all day every day.
Those can absolutely out dps haste, but you don’t take it for the dps. 👍🏻
@@chrishardy3439 the drawback is too high. Even slow is better to be completely honest. If you want something similar to haste but don't like mind whip, slow, or expedious retreat, I recommend ashardalon's stride. Or take the mobile feat, it's awesome.
But it's hard to compete with vortex warp & mind whip, especially if you have meta magic adept for quickened & twinned spell. Hitting with mind sliver & mind whip or vortex warp in the same turn, or hitting two enemies with mind whip & moving two allies or enemies 180ft with vortex warp is amazing.
@@slywolfe Again; all those are great spells in specific circumstances, slow is a great spell and I keep it and haste prepared on my Bladesinger for use depending on the given situation.
Mind whip is a great pseudo slow that deals damage as well, as long as the target fails the save.. and only lasts one round… and is a debuff to the enemy instead of a buff for you.
Expeditious retreat is fine if all you need is speed AND don’t have need of your bonus action.
Ashardalon’s Stride is also great; if you have a lot of enemies to use it against and no one/thing you need to avoid.
Like I said in the original comment, Haste is a great spell overall for a lower level Bladesinger, that shouldn’t be overlooked. That’s it.
I have watched so many shorts from you. I liked them all for their energy and creativity. But today I actually subscribed because I just love the way you see the good in all these types of players. Hating on none and understanding that not only is each there for a different reason, it is also the same reason. Fun. It's that spirit that the game is built on, and that we could all use a reminder of every once and a while. Thanks for the vids mate. love your style :)
I love the energy of this overview, man. I totally agree with your take on there "not being a bad player-type". We need more of this in the community :)
This is my second video of yours I've seen and I'm so glad it was one where you busted out Gilbert and Sullivan of all things
I believe that the "problem" with the minmaxer is that they don't mesh well with storytellers, actors and superheroes unless they share some of the traits of these roles. A "true" minmaxer or munchkin always feels like a detriment to a narrative-focussed group because a lot of their comments tend to be immersion-breaking or harmful to the atmosphere. In a more dungeon-crawly campaign they really start to shine, though.
"Soft" minmaxers that try to optimize within the narrative framework of their character tend to be much more accepted than their more mechanically aligned counterpart by these other roles.
Yeah, though I’d say a full minmaxer party can be pretty fun.
@@williamwontiam3166 Most definitely. I'd also say that minmaxers can mesh well with scientists and socialite as long as all parties are respectful to each other.
The scientist and minmaxer especially can learn a lot from each other.
Scientists can learn how to make their weird ideas work better by optimizing their execution within the design space of their idea.
And minmaxers can learn from scientists how off-meta choices can be just as viable, giving the right circumstances and potentially broaden their horizon in the long run.
@@williamwontiam3166 it can, but that's why I try and weed out min-maxers. That and they usually tend to also be rules lawyers (and as someone who still doesn't know a lot of rules I just don't want to deal with them) and meta gamers. I want all my players to have fun and feel like they have something to offer, more often than not min-maxers just suck all the fun out of the room.
@@Ailieorz how many have you actually dealt with?
I feel a lot of the people bitching about min-maxing never actually ran a game with one on the table.
Its a social game, fucking TALK TO THEM if its that much of an issue
This a great and original take on player types. Love your positivity man!
I play multiple characters, each entirely different, I love rp. I make sure every character isn't perfect, flaws make characters more realistic and fun.
I'm the actor, ye..
I do the same but for the long game... I made a Reborn Shadow Sorcerer who's a total superhero and proudly claims to be an Devil Lord. But now I am making a Death Domain Cleric who simply wants to help as many souls find peace...
I love a game with some character disadvantages, though I irked my group by pointing out our characters all have them.
I love all these takes! The distinctions between them, the way they play around each other, and - most of all - the way that none of them are implicitly bad player types. Yes, some are probably a bit tougher to DM around, but I love the optimistic recognition that all the players are there to have fun in their own way!
I love your videos mate, please keep up this most enjoyable content, I really appreciate it 😁😁
As a Min-Maxer, I use Haste to Cast Fireball and shoot twice with Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter, while Bladesinging! ;D
It's wonderful to be a fan of a creator that actually enjoys The Hobby well done sir exceptionally fun to watch I think this is one of my favorites you've ever made
This is great! I can really see myself in a few of the classes you mentioned, (often actor/storyteller with certain characters inspiring superhero)
However, thie also reminds me that you would be a perfect person to answer a question I had: what is the difference between the divine classes? (Cleric, Paladin, Divine Warlock, and Divine Soul Sorcerer). And by that I mean in things like roleplay, interests, etc.
Cleric: worships god, god gives power.
Paladin: swears an oath and follows it, a entity takes notice and gives them power for that oath (they don't worships that entity).
Celestial warlock: makes pact with angel in extange for power (think devil pact but with angle)
Divine Soul Sorcerer: a family member banged an angel so you now have angel power in your blood.
@@matan8074 please continue, cause the magical classes is where I get confused.
Added Paladin cause people would complain, but what would drive a character to make a pact with a God or become it's priest?
@@Maninawig added the rest.
Cleric: same as any real world priest but the god might give them magic.
Warlock: Making a pact with angel will probably be the same as making any other pact, typicly power/ wealth/ love or some other worlds gain (selfishly or selflessly).
@@matan8074 I think you are missing something.
If clerics a priests given powers, then why are they not divine soul sorcerers?
If they are gifted powers as a boom, then why are they not divine warlocks (as a Warlock pact can be made without concent)?
And for that case, if a priest makes an oath to uphold a god's will, do they become paladins or are they still clerics?
@@Maninawig TLDR is at the end.
Think of the sorcerer more like you've inherited the magic; you may not believe in anything or know why but that divine blood is still in there giving you your magical powers.
In terms of the difference between the warlock and cleric it's a but harder so bear with this.
You could certainly argue that one could exist without the other and vice versa (it is D&D after all (e.g. why does ranger exist when you could just multiclass fighter and druid? (as a note I really like the ranger class))) but there is a subtle difference between them; this is who provides them their power.
The cleric receives their power from a literal god; whilst the warlock receives it from a Celestial being like an Empyrean or Kirin (Celestial beings tend to be good, so enforced one sided deals, like you mentioned about, are less likely).
You should work with your DM for whichever you feel is more appropriate for the character you wanted to play, there is no hard and fast rule in a roleplaying game as to how you must act because character logic, class and background (you could be a character who thinks they are a trickery domain cleric but actually made a pact with an archfey who was just looking to have some fun...).
TLDR:
Cleric- gets powers from literal god's (would have to work with DM for a game without god's)
Celestial Warlock- gets powers from a celestial source (rather than divine).
Divine soul sorc: inherited blood (usually)
Most importantly have fun with your character ideas.
Thank you for reading.
I am a proud storyteller. I am here for story in dnd, the combat is just the cherry on top. It's so much fun! I've finally joined a proper campaign where roleplay and character arcs and backstories come up and it's the most fun I've ever had! My poor dm has to deal with my constant theorizing and in-world prodding for answers and always being a step ahead and it's too much fun, especially because he always has answers and doesn't ever seem unpreparedxD I figured out BBEG's rough plans about 4-5 sessions in and went down a whole rabbit hole on the group chat and I'm 99% certain I either got it right or was on the right track even a few sessions later. I take notes like my life depends on it and whenever the party forgets a detail, I'm quick to have the answer. It's so much fun and I wish my players that I DMed for were more like this sometimes😂😭
(although I have to admit, min-maxing is kinda fun xD It's for one-shots only since story doesn't matter in most of them and we're there just for a fun adventure and difficult combat)
I really thought were going to end up with the "rules Lawyer" - the one player type who can single-handedly destroy a game faster than anything else - except maybe the "no-show" player.
idk why but the socialite description was so wholesome and made me so happy
About minmaxing.
I’ve never actually played it but I told the two people I play with (they take turns dm/dmpc-ing) about this: thri-kreen 2 main arms holding shields, 2 sub arms holding rapiers, dual wielding feat.
In my defense I wasn’t planning to play it I just wanted to see how broken I could make a character. They both still threatened to kill me if I actually tried playing it though.
I have begun planning my counter attack!!!
This is probably the worst build ever as it doesn't even work
I feel like I fall somewhere between the Storyteller, Scientist, and Socialite. I really enjoy telling and taking part in the story. I have lots of fun figuring out what is and isn't possible in each world and at each table. I love just chilling and playing the game with friends. I don't know what you'd call it, but I definitely multi-class in these three player types.
Bad types of players: "Chaotic Stupid" "Rape Fantasy" "Contrarian" "Rules>Fun" "Spotlight hog" "Takes everything personally"
To name a few....
That's not types of player tho, that's just plain bad personality traits.
Honestly, any sexual fantasy can be bad to bring to the table if the other players aren't into it (which, usually, they're really not)
Yes, I did notice that you didn't talk about any "bad" archetypes. I was curious about that. After a moment to reflect, I realized you had a point. All the archetypes are just different ways to have fun; different players with different priorities when playing the game.
IMO, the best description of types of players, you could feel the emotional weight of the years of playing D&D with friends and having fun all together. Dungeon dudes have great production quality too, but they chose unnecessarily lengthy format of videos which then require less work to make. Once again thank you DnD Shorts for this great experience of a video.
Holy shit man that song was epic!! You are the only creator I follow that I don't skip over the sponsorship
I find I have the most fun with my friends who are all closest to the actor/storyteller archetypes just like me. The thing that makes it so special, though, is they’re never afraid of development, in-character conflict, or building each other up. They’re here to play a game, sure, but that game cannot be played without the others at the table. I love when they challenge each other, share with each other, and best of all, set each other up for character development. I am so honored to know such intelligent and artistic contributors to our beautiful collaborative narrative. To my awesome players: you guys are the best!
To date this is my favorite of your videos... This is one of the neatest "Types of Players" Videos I have yet seen, and the first one I am aware of that mentions what you call the Scientist. Very well done... very funny and well... Subscribed!
Our table is an interesting mix of these! While everyone's got a bit of more than one in them, our DM is a Storyteller (with a good chunk of minmaxer that comes out when he's a player), plus we've got an Actor (who also takes turns dm-ing), an Instigator, a Scientist, a Storyteller with more than a bit of superhero left in them (that's me), and a min-maxer who is also the socialite (he loves to create broken characters and combos, but never roleplays, doesn't really care about the story, and is just here to have fun with everyone else. Also, he brings food for everyone).
As a scientist(the archetype, not profession) I can say that when my friend said if I join his campaign he will give a magic dagger that makes a 60ft wind blade, I was so close to becoming unkillable
For reference, I was making a fighter so that I could unleash an ungodly wind storm
My Superhero character: A ridiculously strong level 30 earth Genasi weapon master back in 3.5. Carried 4 custom made bastard swords, all of which were +3 and named and did sonic damage, but otherwise had slightly different enchantments on them 2 tower shields, 3 suits of full plate, had power attack, improved power attack, expertise, improved expertise, cleave, great cleave and whirlwind attack. Take into consideration that he had items that gave DR and Regeneration, and this guy was a beast. He once had a duel with an Arcane Archer that lasted a good 5 or 10 minutes. That's game minutes, not IRL minutes, so 50-100 rounds. His shield looked like a prop from that scene in 300.
I'm tragically probably not going to be able to play DnD for a while, but I'm still going through your vids as a newbie because your attitude while explaining things even as polarizing as player archetypes is very comforting and doesn't make me feel terrible for my choices or what kind of player I am ( I appear to be an Instigator, and my character Tadeusz has sort of become the de facto leader of the party because of it)
Anyway, thank you for being a safe and welcoming place for me to come and try to learn more about DnD so I can be a better player. I hope that I'll be able to put everything I've learned from binging your channel to good use soon.
The background music really is the icing on the cake of these videos
I think I've been a Storyteller for 90% of my time playing this game. At first I tried to be a Superhero, and just dropped a fighter into a campaign with a horse-riding motif that I thought would be fun to play, but I didn't think about his personality or backstory at all. In the end, I quickly realized that my the D&D campaigns of my family circle are *mostly* roleplay.
I went into the game thinking I was going to play Final Fantasy, but it wasn't like that at all. There are so many players in my family group that the game moves at a snail's pace, and I got so mind-numbingly bored that I considered just quitting. My character also wasn't as good as I thought on paper, which led to me cheating in desperation and getting caught.
Now, every time I create a character, I think of a detailed backstory and playstye that gives me stuff to do outside of combat. I often choose races and backgrounds that gave me a complicated ancestry or home-life, which gives me a good baseline to start making their personality and story arc. Most of all, I love playing around with spells and races. I love seeing the cool stories I can make as a player in this fantasy world, and playing a character who's just as enthusiastic to explore it as I am.
I'm a Storyteller/Instigator.... which, as our current DM pointed out, tends to be the role I take on no matter what type of character I play. We have an actual instigator in our group as well, but this takes off the murder-hobo edge just a tad bit.
Definitely actor/scientist. And you're spot on with the classes. For years I would only play bard/wizard/artificer. Lately I've been specifically trying to move out of that and have been having a lot of fun staying an actor/scientist but playing barbs/paladins
Him: "and now The Instigator; the Leroy Jenkins of D&D"
Me: Ohhh Now I underestand Erland, his totally an Instigator.
Thanks to instigators like him we get to see funny and unespected situations that otherwise wouldn't happened.
I’m a combination of instigator and the storyteller. I started DnD with friends about a year ago, and it really means a lot to me now. I also love to play my favourite character and feel a bit empty when I’m not playing as her.
Yes, I am DnD addicted.
Last night, my players got into a big out of character argument and everyone left the table upset. I'm sending them this video to remind them that everyone comes to the game from a different angle, and we're all here to have fun.
Thank you.
I've never been a superhero, my first character was a Beast Master Ranger sheep farmer who had a problem with starting hobbies. Like fly fishing, or philately.
Good take on the different type of players. Love the positivity.
Wow. Your add was really amusing.
Also flesh to stone for 4 Arms... You are genius
Your way of delivering Ads is interesting and I enjoy watching them. I hope your advertising partners appreciate your work. I actually watch your ads instead of fast forwarding because they are ALSO content. A+
I’m totally the actor but I get very invested in my characters and npcs . I love your point about failure. Don’t be afraid of it! It can open up entire storylines that can be very rewarding.
A nice video, and a welcome addition to your catalogue! Been watching more and more D&D videos ever since my work schedule forced me out of my group, and I've been binging a lot of your videos lately. Thanks for all your work!
As for your question, you're right that I've experienced shades of each of these types, but I think my default is Socialite and Superhero, and I try to embrace the others depending on what I want to do, which probably makes me a poor man's MinMaxer.
I think this was one of your best videos so far.
I could be two of these. A minmaxing storyteller(and forever dm)
I’m not entirely sure if it’s also done somewhere else but I just realized where I’ve seen the flying whale background that you use and it brings back memories from being a teen and pre teen lol and it’s nice to look at while listening to you talk
Something I like about this video was that I saw myself and the other players in my party in all of these, none of us are particularly the "instigator", the one one close to a minmaxer is me, and I don't know nearly enough about the game, and a lot of us storytell/act, but we're never just one. It's nice that our party is filled with unique people that don't fit into just one archetype.
No, not even the "Forever D.M.". I was actually going through that for a while, until I forced one of my friends to do it. Turns out, he loves it!
My old D&D group was formed by a minmaxer barbarian, an instigator ranger, a superhero rogue and a storyteller druid(me). Things didn't usually go as planned, but it was a fun campaign.
I'm here to applaud the pirates of Penzance themed add. Amazing!
I’m a mix of all of these lol.
I play literal superhero’s, love rp, have a vague story I want to tell with my character but I’m mostly there to drink in the world, I’m guilty of min-maxing but mostly because I’ve made so many classes for fun it’s hard not to. My passion is being a scientist and I looove to tackle encounters in unique ways preferably trying to talk my way out of a bad situation if I can help it, and I’m an extrovert so I love just being around people having fun. I’m a bit of an instigator but only at appropriate times and never because I’m bored. More like if it’s reasonable my character would do something and it’s not going to ruin everyone else’s fun I’ll probably do it even if it’s a mistake.
I love to wander off by myself, and in the amber temple I destroyed a crypt in CoS because both my character and me thought it was like a chrysalis incubating an evil undead (my character hated undead more than anything). Imagine her, my, and my party’s surprise when a lich popped out and started trying to kill me. It did set up that lich as the bbeg for our current campaign though so I think it wasn’t too bad of a thing to do in hindsight lol.
I think my biggest flaw, as everyone in my group always says, is that I don’t make original characters. I like to take characters from other works of fiction and play them in D&D 😔
So many have posted it already but great enthusiasm and love for everyone at the table! Need to try and balance for everyone is what makes a truly fun DM. So long as I don't have to take them all shopping🙂
I know that my Big Brother and I like to do different roles.
My brother prefers a simple job - be the tank to protect, be the smasher to damage, although, his first guy, which I built for him, using his own preferences, turned out to do Tank, Striker, and, funny enough, Face - Fey Wanderer Variant Human Merchant Ranger, with Expertise on Persuasion (Charisma was the dump stat!), and he must be able to easily relate to the character, mainly because make-believe is a little tricky for him to do. That being said, Big Brother has listened to an important piece of advice - treat the NPCs as if they were real people - as a PHB/Tasha's Ranger in the Acquisitions Incorporated adventure, his Favorite Enemy was Goblinoids - the party encountered a number of them during the campaign - he was able to talk his way out of every fight, because he knew their language and understood them. Currently, he's an Orc Soldier Fighter, and again, wants to pull Tank duty - I plan to make him a Cavalier, so that he can pull it off very well.
Me, I'm willing to try any role - I've done Tank as a Champion Human Soldier fighter, some Magic/Face as a Draconic Bloodline Noble Human Sorcerer, Tank again, as a Yuan-Ti Pureblood Criminal Vengeance Paladin - Now I'm doing Sneak/Face as a Noble Dhampir Tabaxi Rogue, hopefully as a Swashbuckler.
If I was to describe myself as any of these types of players it would most likely be the scientist. The campaign that I'm currently playing in is a Star Wars 5E conversion and my first character was a Class IV battle droid fighter build which I spent a lot of time customizing with different augmentations and gadgets, after he turned evil and I relinquished control of him to the DM I made a Kakarodon (shark person) berserker build who is a Madolorian. I just love pushing the boundaries and shattering everyone's expectations. Especially the DM's.
That was the only sponsor skit youve dint that I thourghly enjoyed
My min-max character: A level 3 Veldalkan with 2 levels of barbarian and 1 level of cleric. We were going into death house for a one shot and I thought "how many d&d shorts can I fit into a single level 3 character, excluding Hexblade stuff because Hexblade is my current main" so I went with survival King and life domain with druid magic Adept (because my DM gave us a bonus feat) and I picked up goodberry and SHILLELAGH! So, I had a magic stick for dealing damage and magic berries for healing people. And I could rage, which I put to great use against a Grick, a horde of zombies, and a mimic in the basement all in one fight.
I’m probably closest to scientist which is why my favorite class is Warlock. They’re so versatile and I love exploring builds with different combinations of subclasses, races, spells, invocations, and feats to find new fun synergies
You know I wouldn't mind if more ads where done to "I am the very model of a Modern Major General"
My most memorable session was with two minmax, one scientist, and three Leroy's. The Leroy's wiped in the first 10 minutes of the session and the two minmax soloed the rest to meet up with the scientist after the session ended.
My core group for most of my time playing was just me and my two roommates. We were a DM that played an actor DMPC character. Me a min- maxer/super hero with some story teller added in. And our other roommate that was an instigator with ungodly dice rolls/luck (in game and out). That led to a lot of interesting encounters. Mostly ending with the DM' S DMPC Character almost dying every encounter.