Upgrading your guitar speakers is DUMB.........here's why.
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- Опубліковано 19 вер 2024
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This sounds more like a capitalism problem than an actual speaker problem.
im 18 seconds into this video and i 100% agree with you
Would you prefer communism?
ShawnWrona Yes.
@@ShawnWrona Democratic socialism. No more corporate welfare. How’s that?
It sounds like you're saying it's not worth it to improve your tone? That's a strange take. I'm sure many people agree with that. For me, though, I'd rather have empty pockets and a tone that I'm happy with.
This advice makes sense if you are a hobbyist who buys and sells used gear. His same same advice would go for new pickups, hardware or any other upgrades to lower cost gear. But if you actually gig or make serious recordings you might want a fine-tuned rig with upgraded speakers as an investment in your music career. (And you can alway put the original speakers back if you decide to sell an amp or cabinet.)
I think yours and Glenn's videos approach it from two different points of view. You're coming at it from the resale value and how buying speakers may not be a good return on an investment if/when you come to sell them, and as you say with how cheap cabs cab be had, it makes a lot of sense to wait for a good deal. Glenn's comes at it from an engineers point of view in what makes the biggest change to your tone and in a dollar to tone change ratio, assuming that you're not intending to sell the gear down the line. Both are very valid points to consider when purchasing any new gear, not just speakers.
This 100%
💩 Thank you for saying what I was gonna say! They are discussing 2 entirely different issues. One is about bang for the buck monetarily and Glen is talking bang for the buck tonally. Art vs commerce. And if your tone is trash (or you just not happy with it) then you will end up having to spend money, Glens trying to get you to spend less over all by not chasing tone wood, pups, amp styles when that doesn't offer much in the way of tonal changes
100% right, he is talking about money and Glen is talking about tone. Most of us don't buy gear with resale in mind, if I buy a guitar or amp it's because I want to keep it.... If I sell it it's because I really did not like it or am super strapped for cash.... I still have my first electric guitar I bought about 30 years ago.... Swapping speakers is like modifying a car...you'll never get the money back...but you might love it more....
💩
I'd say it's not even a tone vs. value argument. I don't think Kyle came even close to saying that some speakers don't sound better than others, rather that you're better off money-wise just buying a better cabinet than replacing speakers in a cheap cabinet, especially as the number of speakers in the cabinet increases. Now, there's a case to be made for something like buying a stereo 4x12 and putting 4 different speakers in it for more recording options, but that's very much an edge case. Most guys buying speaker cabinets aren't doing hardcore home recording.
Interesting take. I think you’re right about the investment angle. However I personally like to load my 4x12s with a few different speaker options for recording and blending tones in the studio. Powerful tone sculpting tools, that’s where the value is for me. I have a Marshall 1960b with g12-75’s and Marshall Vintage. And a Mesa oversized slant with Vintage 30s and eminence dv77’s. In the studio the options are plentiful.
I'm now waiting for the Kyle v. Glenn cage match 😂😂
you won't see it, we are friends in real life. I'm not attacking Glen at all here, just offering a more cost effective option to the same problem
@@belligerentamateur I know. It's tongue in cheek. I've learned a lot from him in my own search for tone.
Glenn is a dork.
@@belligerentamateur Not an attack, but a heavily passionate debate would be fun to hear.
@@beefnacos6258 and a Giant nerd, so he uses Scientific Method while testing shit in his Evangelion Cosplay outfit 😅 Kyle is right about the cost- benefit ratio, buy a cheap cab if need be, but just trade it in or sell it and save for a nice cab already loaded with Higher quality speakers.
I upgraded every single 4x12 cab I have (3 of them as of now) and I am very happy I did. It took me time to find the right combos (different flavor of speakers into the same cab) but that was worth the effort and money.
This is definitely a valid argument for 4x12 cabs. I’m in the 1x12 combo amp world, I still think upgrading the speaker in a cheap combo is worth it. But, keep the stock speaker and swap it back in if you want to sell the amp.
This. I use small lunchbox amp heads, exclusively, and as such have a single 4x12 that I mainly only use for recording. Otherwise, I have a few different open back and closed back 1x12's that I bought as empty unloaded cabs. I know the tones I generally go for, so I know which speakers have that general sound - Seismic Audio Quake12, Celestion G12H-100/G12K-100/Hempback, Mojotone Greyhound, Eminence Swamp Thang/Cannabis Rex/Guit-Fiddle, so basically all the dark speakers with a rounded off top end, because I go for extremely bright, mid forward tones, or else Swedish chainsaw. Speakers like that just balance these tones well. I have had the same 3 or 4 favorite overall amp voicings for YEARS (Orange OR/Rocker/Terror/'Verb, 6534+/EVH 5150 III EL34, Peavey XXX/6505+/Invective, Blackstar HT, Laney Ironheart, and vintage Marshall - JTM45, Plexi Superlead, Origin, or JCM800 - with chainsaw tones). The only other amp that's interesting to me outside of my usual suspects might be a Hughes & Kettner Triamp, or a Victory Kracken, because they do multiple tones from my tried and true preferences.
My convoluted explanation has the following point: If you know what sound you like, and have a plan - which it's clear you do - then keep doing what you know works for you.
It’s also fun trying out different speakers in a small combo. Much cheaper than trying out different amps and can be as fun as trying out different pedals
@@honkytonkinson9787 using 1x12 and 2x12 cabs with cheap amp heads lets you do both
I have been using two 1x12 Krank cabs for years. I have Eminence Texas Heat 16Ω speakers in them that I use with an Orange OR15, Vox MV50, Peavey Bandit and an Orange 35RT.
I do the same. I use heads and I have a couple of different cabs with differing dimensions loaded with different speakers.
I keep the original speakers even if they are crappy and put them back in if I sell the cab. If I decide my good speakers don't suit the next cab, I either start swapping speakers from the other cabs or I trade my good speakers for something else if they don't get me desirable results.
Agree by a Part:
1. Why do you not like your AMP Tone , did you not test the AMP befor buying ?
2. 1st try to dail in your AMP and EQ and Pedal the AMP, maybe there is even the option of an Pedal replacing the Gainstage of your AMP instead.
3. Mostly the Speaker of your AMP was choosen well by people know what speaker will fit in there the best.
To change the Speaker you get an totally different AMP in Sound, just the Basic does stay the same
And you have to know the speakers , the speaker you play atm and the speaker
you wanna buy you have to know the direction it will go even before you will change.
You have to know all that will change and all that you got atm, or you will end up unhappy again.
Upgrading is also the Wrong word , you will end up with a different tone, does not say better or worse ,
it might be just fit for what you are going to go for when you know what you are doing or maybe not at all.
Also to mention , you have to play a while new speakers , the sound will still settle after the speaker did work some hours.
Money does not play much a role.
But there is no better speaker, the tone is just different , its the same with pick ups there is just a difference in tone and not a better or worse.
When you got a very boxy totally cheap amp or an Hi Def Expensive AMP you got an Lo Fi filter in front, they will be similar in Tone because there is no better at all.
For my first (and only) cab I got it custom made by my friend. It has Mojotone speakers and I love how it sounds I know it wont hold much value but I supported a local artist and helped support our local hardcore scene.
I love this! If you got exactly the cab you wanted, I don't see why you'd want to sell it on.
I've got an Eminence speaker waiting for me to build a cab for it.
I have nothing but small branded cabs and unloaded cabs I put speakers into myself, as well.
What is the tone improvement on a behringer 4x12 v30 cab and an English ir Mesa cab usually going to be? I put 2 v30s with the 2 stock fender cheapo speakers I n a beat up cheapo fender cab and for death metal detuned he loves the setup. He uses solid state behringer bass guitar Amps and an MXR fullbore Distortion and he seems to like it.
It's the same exact thing as guitars, you buy a $200 guitar and put in a $200 set of pickups it is not now a $400 guitar.
A good parametric EQ does wonders for tones if speaker swapping gets exhausting.
Or even a rackmount 31 band graphic patched into the effects loop.
Mmmm, true but it doesn’t solve all of it. Different speakers FEEL different too. Some speakers feel kind of soapy, like V30s while T-75s feel very immediate and snappy. An EQ isn’t gonna do that. There’s other characteristics too, but I’m not gonna get into it
I wish there were more parametric eq pedals like the empress one.
@@Rowe4900candymachine I own the their latest Deluxe Para EQ, it's independent gain controls are nice. Source Audio EQ2 Programmable EQ Pedal is ideal for multiple presets though. My fuzz, dist., and HM2 pedals each get their own EQ. Very handy, especially live.
@@UseTheSupeRsonic 100% agree that it will not solve it all, they go a long way though.🤘🤘
Interesting approach, that works for the individual.
I'm almost 40 and haven't parted with any piece of gear I've bought since I was 14
I could maybe sell something for a profit, but I have only ever given away bits, and just because someone else needed it, not to dispose. I did buy an overdrive once that I didn't want to keep. Once.
Hey Kyle. I scored a Engl pro 412 cab on GC for $899 used!! It was a 3 hour drive for me and I traded in my Carvin Legacy 412 to put towards it. I ordered casters for the Engl which ran me about $60 from Thomann and shipped to my door in about 3 days from Germany. With my trade in and casters I was in it for about $750 for a brand used Engl Pro cab. I couldn’t be happier!
How different is it than the Carvin. I've got a Legacy 412 and it's great
nice
Congrats man.
Nice. But you can get good casters from Home Depot way cheaper than that.
@@theophany1770 Pretty different....but not in a bad way. I have a Legacy 4x12 cab and an Engl 4x12 and I like them both in their own way. The Engl cab is a bit tighter and focused and slightly darker to my ears and the Legacy is more...IDK...in your face. Both have V30s and both built well!
I started out the same way: buying, selling and trading, but I’m no collector: I’m a player who buys most of my stuff previously used in order to make the journey cheaper. Doing it this way means I get to experiment with sounds and gear, keep what I like, move on those that I don’t.
For me: music is like modifying cars: the money spent doesn’t equate to money returned, but it’s the journey and the experience :)
That's why I use a 2x12. If I'm going to get bored with Vintage 30s in my Zilla Fatboy, I'll go and buy Hesu Demons or something else. Plus I'm not buying and selling gear, so I don't care on resale value on my gear.
Celestion Seventy 80 are my favorite cheap celestion. $30-50 per speaker used. Once broken in, they have great harmonic content and balanced tone. Work for lots of cabs and tones. Wont do maybe some specific vintage mid humped tones but add an EQ and you can get there.
The reason I like these speakers is you get the basic Celestion tone, a good mid sized magnet, overall balanced tone and can tweak with EQ and cab dimensions. And they are cheap, and everywhere. Once they start getting broken in on the used market (ie: all the ones people ripped out of brand new cabs) start getting used and the tone smooths out, I can see them being more widely embraced and understood. Theres some bad intel online that these are only made for modelers.
To my ear they are basically a V type with less mids.
Try combining pairs of hempback and evh celestions if you're looking for metal. replace the evh's with cream backs if you want a warmer tone. Speakers matter more than anything else in achieving the tones we all strive for no matter the genre.
That's easily the worst speaker in Celestion's lineup behind the Rocket 50.
@@davidfaustino4476Ive got one in my monoprice tube amp and it ain't too good
Absolutely. Got a used Bogner Uberkab 4x12 off GC pristine condition for $600. Saved $700 vs new.
I saw a friedman with V30s for 500$. And a bogner 2x12 with v30s for $400. I kinda want the bogner cab just to run amps thru
ABSOLUTELY!
Patience pays off. I just got a '99 Mesa Rec 4x12 for 350!
Great vid 👍
that's great deal wow
Vertical HESU 212 with daemon speakers for $380. Almost new. 😎
Glenn's entire channel revolves around the idea that the guitar, the amp, and even the guitar player themselves doesn't matter,... as long as you have the right studio equipment and engineer.
That why ALL of his comparisons are ALWAYS about how the recorded MIX sounds, and never focuses on the sound of the guitar in isolation on in a live situation.
Only time you hear guitars in isolation is on UA-cam guitar channels! Not in real life!
@@rogerforsman5064 I think that would have been a pretty valid statement 15-20 years ago. But nowadays, I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of people buying guitar equipment are hobbyists who spend 99% of their time playing unaccompanied in their own homes.
You mean to tell me Spectre Sound STUDIOS is about recording music in a studio? I would have never guessed. /s
Apparently you don't watch his videos or comprehend his message. He caters to people that are on a budget and/or tour in the real world. I remember how proud I was of my carefully selected and purchased equipment(latest, coolest, tone machines) and the great tone I was getting when I was a kid............all of that went out the window recording in a studio and even worse playing live. No it is not mandatory to have a custom guitar, carefully chosen pups, latest greatest boutique amp and cab. Most of the time you are subject to whatever the soundboard, sound guy and house PA equipment, ability. What sounds good to the sound guy might sound like shit to you especially when you put a full crowd in a room changing its dynamics. If your a hobbyist in sitting in your room and have a good supply of funds then by all means buy all the latest greatest gear you want. Nothing against it but if you're someone just starting out as a musician(you know, a "starving artist", that means limited funds) Glenns channel is invaluable.
I certainly see your point. If it is a purchase you intend to pass along somewhere down the line it won’t increase in value due to the speakers plus it is quite a lot of money. It almost makes more sense to get a better cab with better speakers.
I have done myself upgrades on speakers of a couple of combo amps I am keeping just because I tried them and liked what they would do for the sound. It is insane how much a speaker can push an amp or cab in a particular direction. It is a complex eq curve one is placing at the end of the chain.
I do have third alternative which I recommend folks to learn how to work and that is a parametric eq. When placed in the effects loop it can drastically affect the end result and even allow you to mimic other amps. It can only do so much if the speaker is of low quality but it is worthwhile resource. A lot of modelers have them built in nowadays and your basic DAW always got something so chances are that most gear heads have access to this without spending any additional money.
That’s true but changing the speakers is still the best way to drastically change your tone
A speaker is the ultimate filter
what's true? nowhere in the video did I say changing your speakers won't change your tone.
also, his comment reads like a Glenn Fricker Stan. I promise I'm not trying to insult you, but I would work on completing your thoughts a little bit more so that you don't come off as parroting someone else's exact words
@@belligerentamateurwell , wasn’t expecting that
Did you even watch the video?? Yea what's true?
He basically said don't upgrade cheap/crappy cabinet. Instead get a good second hand cabinet, perhaps from guitar center.
The reasoning is that firstly new speakers are expensive. Then you devaluate the speakers by using them and putting in the cheap cabinet. After that you may not even get the tone you want.
So if you get a good second hand cab with good speakers in there already there's much higher chance you get great sound. And you can resell them without a big down in money if you don't like the sound.
You make a lot of valid points. I don't "replace" speakers (unless I need to because it's toast) But, after listening to every speaker out there from Glenn's video, I built twin 2/12 cabs. I got cheap Sonic empty cabs off Amazon in a groovy orange color, (actually pretty solid birch plywood) and I loaded them each with a 150w Celestian redback for the lows and a 60w Celestian Cream back Neo for the mids/highs. They sound awesome! In stereo! I don't worry about resale, these are for my home studio.
The line 6 v30 cab was amazing
its what i use right now its pretty cool
Got mine from Guitar Center for $200. They didn't even bat an eye when I showed up to the store to pick it up with my electric screwdriver to pull off the back to make sure someone didn't rob the speakers out of it, lol. I was so close to pulling the trigger on a Harley Benton 2x12 when I saw that. It was cheaper and a 4x12. Win/win, haha.
Was? Still is.... when you come across one! lol
I had one of those from the first batch. The head was sold after six months lol but the cab was used with a bogner/line6 head and then a bogner uberschall
built way more sturdy than a Marshall too@@travisspaulding2222
I use one of the Line 6 18mm plywood 4x12" cabinets that came loaded with Vintage 30s. Normally it is plugged into my little Marshall DSL20HR amp on the 10 watt option and both channels sound fantastic - big full and warm. It doesn't matter what I plug into Gibson Les Paul, P90 Goldtop or Gretsch hollowbody the sound is great. So if you come across the V30 model Line6 cabinet (or the DSL20HR for that matter) at a good price buy it.
If you're of age, you can rent a U-Haul or Lowes truck for very little money if you're driving in town. Maybe a bit of an off the wall recommendation but it's super clutch in a pinch.
Only in the US...
@@dan_kay and everywhere else can still do a taxi or a ride share...
I haven't done this for a guitar cab, but definitely rented a truck from Home Depot and Lowes for an hour to get appliances, furniture, etc.
or just maybe think about having a car before you buy some more guitar stuff. maybe get off of moms couch and cut down on the edibles.
@@richardclark. Not everyone has a car that can fit a 4x12 megamind
I just happened across this video and it's fits perfectly with my situation. My son is the guitar guy and I'm his DIY guitar tech. We bought a pristine Peavey 6505 412 cab and a Hughes and Kettner Switchblade 100 head on FB marketplace combined for $340, sadly the cab had Sheffield 6505 1200s in it, not Celestion V30s as expected. We bought it anyways because it was still a good deal but now I'm in the mode of searching Marketplace/Craigslist, Offerup etc. for used cabs (Just for the speakers) so your tip that certain older cabs fly under the radar and are available packed with Celestions is right up my alley, really appreciate the tip as well as the tip that GC has decent prices on some of their cabs. Would have never thought they'd be that affordable. I'll be checking them out more often now. Thanks for the video.
I don’t sell cabs. I definitely don’t buy them new either. I usually just buy the cab already loaded.
I paid 300$ for a 90s Ampeg cab with V30s. There’s an Egnator cab near me with V30 and Rola G1265 for 350$ and it just sits because it says Egnator lol.
Help me find it?
Egnater cabs are very well built and usually come with nicely paired celestions or Egnater branded such as Elite-80 (tweaked Classic Lead 80). I'd grab it in a heartbeat but I suppose people don't know anything othet than Mesa and Marshall
@@phantomflame0658 I have the Tourmaster 2x12 combo with partially open back and the tweaked bass response but they are Celestians. I want to harvest them but am selling the amp, I already have a lighter pedal platform amp but its too low gain and need the money
@@phantomflame0658picked up an egnater 1x12 with a g12 heritage for less than the speaker would cost new, put an ev 12l in it and it sounds great, and put the g12 in a crate tube amp and that was a nice upgrade too
your not wrong but you are arguing resale vs tone. glen is offering advice to upgrade the tone. sometimes we can only afford what we can afford and its more cost effective to swap a speaker or two.
currently rocking a yamaha 2x12 mismatched cab. i love the one speaker but the other is muddy. it makes more sense to swap the one speaker and create my own sound.
to each his own though!!
This is great advice i took $1000 and turned it into 15k in gear over 6 months of trading and selling. I have a brand new mesa dual rec multi watt and cab that have maybe 2 hours use still have taggs for $1600 for the head and cab
Well Kyle I downgraded my cabinet to a Marshall 2X12. I had a 4X12 my entire life, well 39 playing. So I thought I would hop online and get a Marshal 2x12. I paid like $250 for it floor model and it was loaded with those 70 eighty El crapo speakers in it. I just could never get them to sound good even with an EQ in my chain. So Yes, I ended up buying a couple of celestion speakers for it that cost me another $250 open box and they said only used for demo video online off ebay. I bought a V30 and a Creamback H. LOVE EM! I love gear, but I can get nearly any sound I want with what I have pretty easy. I'm not a gear head anymore that has to have every cabinet and amp. 2 amps, 6 guitars, 1 Bass, shitloads of pedals and a TONEX and I am good.
But I do appreciate you saying this to help people. I'm always up for saving a few bucks. The IRS always has a soul to suck.
Alrighty - don’t know if this will help anybody make some decisions, but here goes:
I have a pair of 212 Avatar cabs, one closed back and one open back. For those unfamiliar, Avatar is brand of guitar & bass speaker cabinet manufacturer. I purchased the first of the two cabs in 2017, with stock Chinese V30s.
Fast forward some years, I got rid of the Chinese V30s. I end up getting a pair of (new) UK Greenbacks, a pair of (used) G12T-75s, and just about a month ago, a single (used) UK V30 (I have more speakers than cabs currently 😂) I have opened up those cabs each handfuls of times. I’ve gone back and forth.
Here’s the point I’m trying to make. Over the course of about 7 years, I’ve tried all sorts of combinations. My tastes have changed gradually. And I can’t say for sure that any current setup will always work for me. However….
I have forever accepted that I’m making a relatively blind purchase with each. I spend months with a particular setup, I gig with it live, and every gig I treat it as a bit of an experiment.
There is no definite answer for what will work for you forever; and in that regard, my dude’s advice is completely sound. You can change so many variables while you do these things. To me, it’s always been fun. I’ve learned so much in the process. To save yourself from giving up on something, the best advice I can give anybody is simply: if something isn’t working, and you feel the need to change something, change as few variables as you can at a time.
So, if you are wanting to buy new speakers, before you commit to a pair, or a set, try just one. These things are investments.
Great advice if you need a 4×12. My experience, has been a lot different, as my focus has been on playing in bars, clubs, and festivals, using 1×12 or 2×12 combos. I have put the same ElectroVoice Force speaker in every amp I have owned since the 1990's.
I'm kinda on the opposite. Resale value is something I don't care about at all, and sometimes I go with the lowest resale value on purpose. Looking at gear as stocks rather than tools is a destructive mindset in my personal opinion.
The last thing I wanna do is selling gear. I'm done with the trial and error, I decided that I'll never ever sell another guitar or any other piece of gear in my life and I'm in a point in my life when I can do it. I found my thing, I know what I want and I know how to get it, and if I end up upgrading it's always good to keep the old stuff as backup.
Locking myself in the resale value spiral ends up just giving me more anxiety and not allowing me to enjoy gear to the fullest or find cool stuff that's under the radar.
It's easy to say "well just get a new cab" if your taste is something as common as a V30. If you're more experimental in what you want, like let's say different combos of Celestions or companies that are not even Celestion it's much easier and cheaper to find a cheap cab and putting these in rather than order a custom cab with these speakers, especially if you're into vertical 2x12s. And some of us don't live in the US or anywhere that has a huge used market like that.
I imagine I'd go for a Marshall MX cab and just put whatever speakers I'd want in it.
You would hate my cabinet! The box was an old carpet/felt covered Chinese car subwoofer 2x12 particle board box that I loaded with Celestian Creambacks. I coated the whole interior with epoxy resin to soak into the wood and stiffen it up/make it air tight and it sounds like a dream! No one would give me more than $100 if I tried to sell it though 😆
I like to mod my tube amps from time to time but one of the biggest changes I've made to my amps is the speaker choice, for instance a V30 or a Creamback or a G12T.
Hey man, I got a new amp recently and stumbled across this on auto play - Super insightful and I really appreciate the time you spent making this.
Thanks for the reasale caution, Kyle! It's the same way with guitar modding: just because you tricked out a Squier Affinity DOES NOT mean it will sell for the same amount you put into it. After watching Jim Lill's vid on speaker cabinet geometry, I think I'm just going to build my own 2 x 12, put a Hesu Demon and Hempback in it, and not care about the resale.
Every gearhead imo should have an idea of the used selling price for pieces of gear they have or are interested in, and how fast they could flip it. But that being said, some things are just going to be a sunk cost in this world given the nature of the market and the number of niches.
Like the eminences you mentioned, resale value is pretty low, and you may be holding them listed for 3 months, but as long as you know that and are willing to drop a decent amount to try them out and know they may not move quickly if you wanted to resell, then I say go for it.
I fully appreciate the business aspect to anything, so you don't lose money, but sometimes it's just about paying to have fun as well. I'm happy to lose a little bit of money to just say I tried it and maybe did or didn't like it. Speakers in particular I find to be fun to swap in and out, and they can really do some tone shaping in nuanced ways that you can't do with pedals or changing heads etc.
Bottom line, every musician should be cost conscious and learn how to value their purchases and know their risks etc.
Also since you asked. 💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩JK though love your content.
I have two 6505 cabs. Both with Sheffield speakers. So, I'd like to swap out the speakers in the straight front with V30s, purely for experimental and personal satisfaction reasons. Not for a need or a specific tone that I'm chasing. My tone is amazing, to my ears... especially since I'm just a home player. It blows me away every day! However... I totally agree with you on the cheap cab + speaker upgrade point. It's ridiculous.
P.S. I'm 42, with no car. I grew up, literally rolling speaker cabinets down the street. If you want it, you'll figure it out.
I did the same thing.
Found a 1978 Marshall 4/12 and rolled it home because I had a mustang that wouldn’t fit it… got it home and it had blackbacks in it. It’s my main cab now❤
I bought a peavey windsor 412 guitar cabinet. Shipping on any website was like 120 but not guitar center.... highly recommend
Speakers make a huge difference, i have done swaps on almost all of my set ups. Most notable was replacing the standard celestion evh in my iconic 40w combo with a uk made creamback.. chalk and cheese. Worth every cent..
I don’t usually comment on things, especially if what I want to say is not positive. BUT, in this case, I feel compelled to do it.
You aren’t looking at this in even close to the right way. Nobody should listen to you, unless they are looking for advice on becoming a music store owner, or are going to get involved in the buying and selling of music gear. For a player interested is finding the right tone, creating a unique sound, or is in any way concerned about their art, you aren’t helping - and you’re doing damage.
First of all, buying gear solely on the basis of its resale value will make the buyer become trapped in the everyday, pedestrian existing paradigm of tone - by definition, what is popular is what everyone is doing. It’s a good way to be stuck using the gear that everybody else is. Next, some of most interesting sounding gear has come from obscure places, from things that nobody wants. Eventually, the demand for it will spike (Josh Homme’s Peavey practice amp is a good example), but initially it wouldn’t have much of a resale value.
Next, if you’re a gigging musician and can find a way to upgrade your 4x12 Behringer speaker cabinet, waiting and saving is not going to help you on the job. It sounds like a good idea, what you say, but it’s not applicable to the real world, for working people. If your sound is lousy in the job, you probably won’t have that job for very long. A better piece of advice would be to tell the player to save the existing speakers, so that upon resale of the cab, it can be sold with the cheaper speakers - and the more expensive ones can be rehomed in another piece of gear, or sold separately.
The only monetary concern that an artist should consider AT ALL when purchasing some gear is “how can I afford this?” Everything else is secondary to the pursuit of quality and the growth of creativity. Even if it’s fiscally unwise, a decision that results in better art is never a mistake - if making art is your goal. If your goal is to make money, you’re better off in another industry.
I’m looking at some of your replies to comments that say things that are similar to what I’m saying, and I’m kind of shocked that you would be so smug and dismissive of your viewers. Your advice isn’t all that clever or insightful, and I actually don’t think that it would be that helpful for a working musician. And , using the example of the Behringer cab, if that’s what a person has, the fact that there are better cabs out there to be had is irrelevant to the immediate need. If a person can make that MDF cab sound better in time for the gig tonight, I would hope that they would do it. And figure the rest out later. Because keeping the crappy speakers in the crappy cab for a couple months while you wait for the perfect investment is a bad idea. Much better to swap out the speakers, and later buy a better cab without speakers and put the quality speakers into that.
If you care about serving the needs of the viewing audience, you should take the criticism (that it’s a matter of improving the sound, not a financial issue) and adjust your content. Either that, or make sure that you are very clear that you are making this video for collectors or flippers, and not musicians. Because nothing about your approach speaks to the needs or values of musicians. I can’t help but think that you revealed a little bit too much near the start of the video, when you said that you weren’t much of a player. I can’t help thinking that maybe if you were more of a player, you would understand the indignation of those who have made sacrifices in order to play, who have poured a lot of money into their art with little hope of a ROI - because they value the end result, and not how much they can get if they sell their tools.
@Kyle Bull I think you should upgrade your recording setup. I think you should add a Royer 121.
Bought my Crate Excalibur half stack from a stoner kid for $140 in 2005. Sold the head on eBay for $250 and kept the cab this whole time. Have used it on 6 records and 3 EPs. Countless shows. It’s super tough. It was in a flood and the bottom two speakers were ruined, but since it’s built like a tank with a Line-X type exterior the water did nothing to the exterior or the frame.
Flipped that baby over and replaced all the speakers with Greenbacks and Ampeg G12Ls. Back in business. That cab was the best investment ever.
💩 oh and here you go Kyle
i had a crate practice amp i turned into a monitor for our drummer. it came out of the back of a pickup going 60 mph down a country road and bounced about 50 feet. we plugged it in when we got to the bar and it fired right up! lol
Avatar cabs are another fantastic buy on the secondary market. I recently purchased a mint condition Avatar Vintage 4x12 loaded with V30's and G12H30's for $299.00 plus $100.00 shipping. All 3/4" ply and as solid as any other popular brand. One of the best equipment buys I have ever made.
Avatar contemporary 2x12 with v30’s is the one I have and it rules!
@johnnyroastbeef7130 , I also have a 2x12 Contemporary loaded with V30's(Hellatone 60's, actually). I have my MT15 running through it, and it sounds super fat. I was looking for a second Contemporary 2x12 when I found my 4x12. They are really good cabs.
I completely understand this argument and agree. However, for my own personal preferences, I prefer to shape my own unique sound. So, I tend to look for ways of creating a unique tone without going after the most popular and top-tier gear. That being said, i lean more towards getting a decent cabinet and loading it with speakers i prefer, no plans on reselling. Currently, I run Eminence speakers (2 Cannabis Rex, and 2 Private Jack) for a more unique tome. I spent hours listening to comparison videos on UA-cam to find exactly what I wanted, and it paid off.
So, it all depends on what you're planning on doing to get your tone. V30's sound vastly different from Greenbacks and Creambacks, etc. Oftentimes, the speakers you may want do not come preloaded in any cab.
Orange Crush pro 240-watt 4x12 has voice of the world speakers that are meant to mimic Celestion Vintage 30/G12H.
Swap it out it's Orange PPC412C that comes with Celestion V30s.
The speaker cabs are literally the same aside from the speakers.
You make a good point about getting your money back on cheap cabs when it's a 4x12. Personally I think you're better off just buying a cab with the speakers you want already in it (whether that be a Marshall, Mesa, Bogner etc). If you've got a combo with only one speaker, then upgrading it doesn't hit the bank anywhere near as hard and can be a good upgrade (especially if you buy them second hand). But it really depends on what your end goal is for the amp/speaker cab.
I could be wrong, but I don’t think Glen is suggesting folks buy 4 speakers when upgrading - I think he’s suggesting they buy one or two for smaller cabs - his focus is recording, not performing; performing is the only context in which a 412 is needed (although debatable even then)
Diagnosing starting point...
SOUND: From the speakers to the fingers (or pick)
TONE: From the fingers to the speakers (or combo amp)
End to end inspections from a 3rd party perspective (i.e. a common listener to pros).
P/s: Never listen to marketeers, they just want to sell you stuff.
Ok, one, I'm not gigging and don't need a 4-12 cab, but I do need a great sounding amp. So I'll buy a used celestion speaker so my amps sound even better. I use wet dry configuration. And it's awesome.
Same with modding cars. $3000 lift or turbo =\= $3000 value increase. Most of the time the value decreases.
So the issue isn't really "don't upgrade your speakers" it's "don't pay full retail for speakers that you can get cheaper second hand".
Marshall mode four cab is a great cab you can find used at a decent price.
definitely viable for combo amps, upgraded my 6505 112 speaker to a warehouse speaker and the difference is night and day
Yeah I got a pair of 2x12 egnater tweaker cab’s with celestion 70 anniversary 30s for $200 each cause I like how portable they are also a alnico
Cream and alnico Gold for $380,and two fullback 15s $125,,both from being opened not that great but better than regular if you look at used
I've been playing for 30 years. I have NEVER changed a speaker. I'm not against it, but if I don't like a tone I'm getting, that's what boosters, equalizers, and such are for. Got a certain speaker with a lot of high-end? Turn down the "high" EQ knob on the amp or mixing the console. It's not that complicated. Doesn't matter what I'm using, I might not have MY sound exact. But I can always get something I can work with.
💩I recommend asking the GC you are getting the cab from, before buying it, what method of shipping they are planning on using. I say this because I had a cab shipped from a GC outside of my state and they shipped it "Freight" instead of UPS and the freight company (It was Yellow Freight) could not get their truck up into my housing plan and therefore took the cab to the nearest Yellow Freight hub( which was across town) and I had to retrieve it myself. I pitched a fit and since I ordered it through my local GC, but had them ship it directly to my house, the manager (somehow) got my shipping and 50% off the price of the cab refunded to me for my troubles. All said and done, I ended up paying $150.00 for a Carvin Legacy (Bottom) cab which I still have. 😁
Lol. I had the same thing happen and that's how I came to own my first shipping pallet. Lol
Eminence speakers start at $250 in my country, so starting with a speaker swap can be an expensive mod, unless I’m really certain that I will keep an amp for a while. If I don’t love, I won’t swap the speaker(s). Even used Celestions are over $100 here.
I think the point most other creators are making is that the speaker will change the sound the most, and so that’s a good place to look if you want dramatic changes in tone. Changing the speaker you’re playing through doesn’t necessarily mean ponying up for expensive new in box individual speakers though, and that’s where your video can be helpful to those who are maybe falling down a rabbit hole of UA-camrs telling them to buy new speakers from a manufacturer like eminence. Just buy a used cab that has different speakers… The sound variance in different speakers and microphones when recording guitars is pretty easy to hear. If you go the upgrading route, get a unique combo of speaker pairings because you have the money to experiment. Otherwise, just try a bunch of cheaper cabs with different speakers like you mention.
The big problem with upgrading speakers is people underestimate the impact of the enclosure itself. There are a million V30 loaded cabs, and they all sound drastically different. So it’s very difficult to determine (without experience with a lot of cabs) whether your speaker swap is going to be effective or a futile attempt to mask the inherent tone of the enclosure. IMO if you don’t inherently like the tone from a cab from the start then a speaker swap is a time and money sink. If you do generally like the tone from a cab then a speaker swap or pairing can squeeze a little extra juice out of it.
WRT to costs for Guitar Center to ship a cabinet, they likely have some sort of arrangement with UPS due to their high volume of shipments. I worked for a warehouse that had a negotiated rate with UPS, it's probably similar.
I bought a Randall 4x12 dirt cheap with 70/80s in it that was about 150 with the tolex all tore up.
Been using it for a while and love it. Only thing i am going to do is replace the tolex. 70/80s are underrated.
I just put a set of them in my home built 2x12 cab and they sound awesome! Got them for $60 apiece at my LGS!
I totally agree dude! I just bought DV-77s to replace the V30s in one of my Mesa 412 cabs and the speakers cost me almost $700 after taxes from Sweetwater and now my $1,500 ($1,700 after taxes) is now a $2,500 investment lol. I would also like to say I thoroughly despise rewiring Mesa cabinets because their weird ass jack input switch configuration. I wish I knew where I could find a seller of unloaded and well built cabs I can wire up myself with the speakers I want. Lastly, be prepared to solder your contacts which can be a pain in the ass. And YESSSSSSSS dude, Guitar Center is my go to for used cabs lol. I love that they post the used gear way to high, but you can contact that store and offer half or 2/3 of what they're asking for and get the cab shipped directly to you. I watched to the end 💩
What would happen if your trying to load a Marshall 1960A with Tone Tubbys' does that help in keeping the value? the 1960A I have has vintage 30's in it.
You make good points about used cabs. At one time I had (2) 5150 cabs, 1960 A (beat up but with G12V speakers), 1960B (G1275), and an Avatar cab (70th Anniversary and Mode four V30's). Most were bought used except the 1960B bought new due to damaged grill cloth. I still have the G12V (sold the 1960 A as a shell) speakers in various DIY cab builds. I did swap the G1275's for G12EVH (Heritage Greenbacks) 10 years ago and it is still my only 4x12/favorite.
Even iff you aren't interested in re-selling your cab, you would spend so much upgrading speakers you might as well buy a loaded cab, HARLEY BENTON CABS ARE AMAZING TOO.
Idk, in a lot of cases maybe. But, sometimes the speakers that come with a combo aren't the best. I'm thinking of the speakers that say Vox fits to it's cheaper AC30S1, or even the Vox AC15C1, if you prefer a Celestion Blue Alnico to the Greenback. But, the Greenback is a great speaker, and I would use it for something else. Some of the standard Fender combos don't come with great speakers either, and would be better to put a Celestion in them. I don't think paying say 150 for a speaker to upgrade a 1500 amp is such a bad value proposition. Especially if you have a use elsewhere for the speaker you take out (e.g. the Greenback from a Vox AC15C1). Tube upgrades oth ...
I always keep the original speakers of my cabs. If I sell it, the old speakers go back in and I either put those speakers into the next cab or I'll trade them for a different speaker if I decide the speaker I should put in that cab is something different.
I bought a cheap Line 6 cab from a pawn shop once, expecting MDF, but when I opened the back to look at the speakers, I discovered it was plywood.
*With my formal background in the science of electrical/electronics engineering I will tell you that in general, the entire electronics industry robs their customers blind in some manner or another.* I also figure you know their secret which is they have an inductor on them which is an attempt to clean them up since Behringer amps are so terrible lol. They did a good job at stealing the Sansamp, but as with almost all semiconductor based circuits, it falls short, theirs worse than others.
If you can get the right series of these cabs, they're loaded with Jensen MOD's which is actually one of my favorite modern speakers, especially in 10's.
As far as the cheap Celestion Rocket 50, I have some floating around and they're hugely overrated and overpriced. They came in my ancient low budge Crate half stack cabinets. I also have some vintage Carvin BR-12's and these blow away the Celestions, but the MOD's are a good equivalent. My only regret for selling the Behringer cabinet I had is I paid $200 for it new back when there was no tax and shipping was free.
As far as replacing any speakers in general, most people would be far happier modifying the tone stack for their amp. It's one of the biggest problems with solid-state amps, but I would have to write a dissertation to explain what exactly the companies do wrong in their designs, and also make the point that after 20 years of being neck deep in electronics, 10+ years after going to college, it's intentional.
*The solution isn't exactly pretty, but it is absolutely simple.*
I watched the video till the end because its neck time and the wall is missing another amp. I agree that spending a lot of money on speakers to upgrade a cabinet not making monetary sense but if you are looking to not sound like every other metal guitar player on the planet I believe the best place to start is your speakers. Whether that means no Vintage 30's or some kind of blend. I do think thats the way to go. Great video though and thanks for all the great advice!
You're wrong in everything you just said💩
Kidding, love the channel. I think the key point is that you shouldn't upgrade a cheap cab if you plan on trying to turn it around. There's nothing wrong with upgrading one if you plan on keeping it, just hold on to the cheap speakers and swap the speakers back out if you do wind up selling it or, like you said, sell them separately. I think the marketplace still hasn't caught up with the current wave of information on the importance of the speakers
You sir are not wrong, pretty good advice from my experience. I’ve had some affordable cabs. I figured out cabs are not created equal as well. Personally I’ll never buy another budget cab. Who makes the best cab? Never had a half closed/open cab. Worth getting one?
I'm surprised to see this come only from the viewpoint of finances. I thought you were going to talk about sound advantages and disadvantages, since not everyone is concerned with resale value or cost. For example, using an EQ pedal or an amp sim would be an even more cost effective way of getting the sound you want. Speaking for myself, I buy things to create something custom I will keep forever. So upgrading a cab still doesn't seem like a dumb idea for my situation, but I appreciate the information you give that helps a lot of people find what they need more easily. Cheers
4:14 People think the same thing when swapping out pickups. They buy a Squier bullet strat for $150 and put $200 worth of Seymour Duncans in it. That's fine and dandy. But then they try to sell that Squier Bullet for $300, thinking it's worth that. Nope. You might get a buyer that's willing to pay $200, but upgrades don't increase the value of a cheap/inexpensive name. I always try to keep stock pickups and if I sell the guitar, I save the pickups for another project or sell them.
If doing speaker swap for studio recording... You only need 1 speaker anyway. I say put the desired speaker in, do studio work, then put the factory speakers back before selling.
marketplace is a gold mine for cheap gear.. today i picked up a cheap 4x12 cab for £50. thedude was down sizing. needs some TLC but it sounds pretty sweet has peavy sheffield 1230 and Vintage McKenzie in an x pattern. very unusual. but cool none the less
I spent $1200 on a brand new Soldano 412 w/V30's and that thing is priceless to me... All my guitars and gear have been through looking for deals and finding them... But i splurged on my cab... 🤘 💩💩💩🎸☠️🎛️🥁💩💩💩
I have bought Marshall 1960 cabs all the time for $350-400 and they have the gt75’s that are my all time favorite speakers, good points in this video. Buy used! Get good quality for less money 💵
It's pretty refreshing to hear your disclosure that your buzz with guitar stuff is acquiring cool gear. Many if not most guitarists do this (commonly called G.A.S.) but they are not honest with themselves about it.
If you want a super cheap rig, buy that cheap cab and *don't* change the speakers! You might be able to get around the inferior tone problem well enough by adding the right pedal to your rig.
If you want v30s get a harley benton cab. The cabs are about as much as the speakers alone.
I know it’s not 💯 % the same, but before I bought a cab , or speakers to change, I would cat the torpedo captor X and load it up with celestion IRs and figure out what I really like. I’ve had this Blackstar Artist 15 combo which is totally not a metal amp, but at times I use it as such. I’m not in love with the sound and am wondering if it’s that it’s a V “Type” speaker, that it a 1x12, that I need a parametric eq, or a combination of those things. I think even a 2x12 would be an upgrade and is cheaper than that captor X. Just my thoughts, been playing 38 years and 💩
The speakers matter more than anything else ... change them
I have upgraded my Marshall MG15DFX that comes with a generic chinese speaker with a Celestion Super 8, that same upgrade is done by many people and some other just put a line out to connet it to a cab. Indeed upgrade a behringer is not a wise move and cabs can be found for cheap but in this case a combo with good electronics and crap speaker is different.
Wholeheartedly agree especially for 4x12s.
Counterpoint to this: not everyone is necessarily looking for ROI or to retain value. If you're investing in several cabs, replacing speakers is likely not going to add much value and may even decrease value for purist collectors. For me, I'm a cheap-ass dude with a couple Peavey Bandits I got for cheap. I tossed a couple Eminence speakers I got a good deal on into em and it really breathed new life into them. Did I drastically increase the resale value? Probably not. But I did drastically increase how valuable they are to me and what job I need from them. Since I'm not really looking at selling them, that's more important to me.
In my personal opinion while what's said in the video is true there's a little more to it.
You could for example build an unloaded cab with a very specific set of speakers that you never see on the market in order to have a different tone for your recordings or gigs.
If you really think about it, there are almost no cabs left if you exclude those loaded with the usual suspects (V30s, greenbacks, creambacks, a couple of eminence's and few others)
best suggestion - but only if you have some woodworking capabilities - just build your own - you won't find a better quality one for sale...
if not the harley benton 2x12 wtth v30's is still the best deal... unless you don't want v30s
There are a few of the panama 2x12 cabs floating around for pretty cheap if you can find them, speakers mostly were not great, but the cabs are very well built
guitar centers used stuff is also a great deal for used cabs - a while ago I saw a core PRS mira for $500 as well as some of the hardwired blackstar artisan cabs for I think $200 - but the deals are way less frequent now than compared to several years ago.
those cabs are an excellent deal and actually well made. they are the only thing i would buy from hardly bent one.
I just keep the original speakers, and put them back in when I sell a cab or amp,... same with tubes.
All the European stuff comes out, and all the Chinese stuff goes back in, when it comes time to sell or trade.
I just assumed everyone did this.
So…you’re not actually saying upgrading your speakers is dumb. You’re saying don’t sell a cab with upgraded speakers, sell the speakers separately.
The discussion of buying new cabs or upgrading speakers is something I’ve personally never gave too much thought simply because of how hard it is to compare the difference it does. So when I bought my first head i decided on a harley benton 2x12 with v30’s and was happy with it, I only recently found a SUPER CHEAP Marshall 4x12 mg412a for 140 bucks. I know it’s not considered like a true Marshall cab but I decided to just check a short video on it, really liked the sound and bought it. One of the best investments I’ve made when considering the price and how good it sounds.
💩I have a similar Ampeg cab, the straight model. That plywood has to be an inch thick, and it's loaded with the G12-75's for a 300 watt beast, and I've had it for 30 years. I've almost let it go a couple of times, but now I'm convinced I should hang onto it. It's way bigger than I need, but so what. Thanks for the info Kyle, I would agree with your comments about the replacement speakers in a budget cabinet. A combo amp with a lame speaker, I would totally swap for something else, or even swap it out just to get a different sound. Not everything needs to be a V30, I mean Celestion makes those Hempbacks too.... Yeah, most Celestions sound the same to me, so again probably a waste of money.
I totally agree that replacing four speakers in a market place where you can buy second hand cabs with those speakers. Is not a great idea. But most of the vids you’re referencing aren’t suggesting to change the speakers over the cab. They are suggesting it vs pickups given the fact that pickups have less impact and are potentially far more expensive to do.
I personally don’t use cabs I have combos. So a speaker change in a 1x12 is far better than a 4x12 cab.
Also not everyone lives in a place where there is a great market place for second hand cabs. It’s way harder to find second hand cabs in my market place, not that I want one, or need one. So your speaker argument whilst holding true here isn’t always possible in a short period of time due to supply being limited compared to being in any major city in the USA.
Anyway, still a great point for the majority of your viewers I’d guess.
There's a simple solution to this. If replacing speakers, why not just keep the old speakers on hand for in case you want to sell the cabinet later on? That way the speakers are treated in a similar way to the cabinet: as an investment. Just because it's considered a part of a cabinet does not mean it can't be it's own thing.
Then over time you have different speakers to try on different cabinets. Just make a note of what the original speakers were for when you sell that cabinet so that you're shipping that cabinet off as original.
I definitely see where he's coming from, but this is more of a case by case basis. For someone like me, who only gigs on the weekends with a 2x12 katana, a speaker upgrade would be worth it. And if i were to ever sell it, I would put the original speakers back in it and put the new ones in a new cab. But, thats from a 2x12 point of view. Something I never really hear people talking about, is to buy an unloaded cab and put whatever speakers you want in it. Or build your own for even cheaper.
Kyle single handedly made guitar cabs go up in price
Interesting discussion here. From a business stand point I agree with what you say, but as a guitar player I don't. The thing you missed about Glenn's video is to not use a cab with v30s or whatever everyone else is using and to rather find your own sound. I bought a used Behringer cab for 60 bucks and I'm loading it with DV-77s and EVH G12s in an X pattern. I don't know of a cab on the market that has the option available. Also I love guitar center used and have recommended it on my channel as well. There's so many great deals if you are patient. Cheers 💩
I didn't miss anything about Glenn's video. I simply used his thumbnail as an example of UA-camrs who had been talking about speakers.
Guitar Centre only ship in the US though. This is the internet, most of us are in the rest of the world and don’t have access to guitar centre. We have other retailers here but they’re not the same.
You have a valid point about the resale value. However, I don’t think glen was ever coming at it from that perspective. He is coming at it from the perspective of how to record great and original times. And from that perspective, he’s absolutely correct. Besides, I don’t think most guitarists buy gear as a financial investment to begin with. It’s mostly a means to an end.
There are hundreds of variables within guitar playing that can slightly change the sound you have. There are hundreds. Everything from changing speakers to changing tubes or changing amps entirely from tube amp to solid state to changing pickups to changing strings to changing pickup heights to changing string heights to changing pedals or pedal order. Even cables make a difference in the sound you have. I defintiely agree that changing speakers in a cheap cab isn't going to make the cab worth the money you paid for the speakers. Even the pots in your guitar...changing those to a different value can change your sound.
However, if a person is after a very particular sound, that's a different story. In that scenario, they aren't looking in the future to resell it later. They want a very specific sound for their own setup and likely plan on keeping the cab anyway.
A really good example is Randy Rhoads. He used a very specific speaker that is no longer made. The only way to get one of those speakers is: buy a used vintage one in good working order. Buying a vintage reconed speaker but there's dangers to that. Buying a new speaker from Altec Lansing's descendant company Great plains audio for three times the original price of Altec Lansing speakers. An original Altec Lansing speaker was virtually the same price as any other speaker back in the day. Great Plains Audio make brand new versions of those same speakers for like $1200....that's just one speaker!
Rhoads had a very unique live sound that can only be acheived with the right equipment. You can mimic his studio sound with most modern equipment. You cannot mimic his live sound accurately this way. Trust me, I've tried. His sound lies in the pickups being used, the amp, the speakers and specific pedals. Even this may be futile because we also don't know what mods were done to all of his pedals in his signal chain.
With all of this said, I agree with Kyle. I wouldn't go after a specific sound from somebody else....find your own with what you have.