All You Need to Know about Wim Winters and the Whole Beat Revolution in Classical Music
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- Опубліковано 3 лют 2023
- Wim Winters is the clavichord player behind the UA-cam-channel @AuthenticSound and a proponent of a revolutionizing way of reading the metronome that would radically change the performance practice of music by Bach, Beethoven, Chopin, Mozart and other composers from the Classical period.
▶️ Watch the full interview with Wim Winters at @CaveofApelles:
• Single or Whole Beat? ...
00:10 Difference between Single beat and Whole beat
01:52 Beethoven's broken metronome
02:34 Wim Winters' critics
03:34 Thomas Kuhn and "Paradigm shift"
04:18 Lorenz Gadient and the Aha-moment
05:38 How Single beat destroys performers
07:42 What can Whole beat mean?
Video by Bork Nerdrum with the main source material from @CaveofApelles and @AuthenticSound-
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MUSIC in this video:
W.A.Mozart :: Rondo Alla Turca KV 331 :: Wim Winters, Clavichord
• W.A.Mozart :: Rondo Al...
Beethoven Symphony No. 9 conducted by Maximianno Cobra
• BEETHOVEN Symphony No ...
Beethoven Symphony No. 9 conducted by John Eliot Gardiner
• Beethoven: Symphony no...
Beethoven Piano Sonata No.1 performed by Jill Crossland
• Beethoven Piano Sonata...
Beethoven Piano Sonata No.1 performed by Wim Winters
• Beethoven, Piano Sonat...
Fantasie - Impromptu by Chopin performed by @bartoszbieganowski9588:
• Fantasie - Impromptu O...
Symphony No.5 by Beethoven performed on piano by Wim Winters and Alberto Sanna
• Beethoven, Symphony No...
Adagio from Moonlight Sonata by Beethoven performed by Wim Winters:
• Beethoven - Moonlight ...
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MOVIES featured in this video:
Shine (1996) directed by Scott Hicks:
• Video
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Wim Winters' critics featured in this video:
Daniel Waitzman:
• On the musical scam kn...
Vlad Vexler:
• Wim Winters Double Bea...
Gerard van Reenen:
• Wim Winters and his fo...
Simon Danell:
• This week's Wim, Seaso...
Patrick Hemmerlé:
• On Wim Winters double ...
Dr. Cory Hall:
• RESPONSE TO WIM WINTER...
Bradley Scarff:
• why double beat has lo...
David Arditti:
• Wim Winters, 'double b...
Bernhard Ruchti:
• A TEMPO Q&A #1: Did Ca...
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3:09: "you feel that this is not physically possible anymore" - followed by a sparkling performance of Beethoven's first sonata at its "physically impossible" proper alla breve allegro speed. Can Mr Winters genuinely not hear that his performance is playing what is supposed to be allegro in the style of an andante?
In my opinion, transmission is the biggest blow to WW's theories.
The first recording of a Beethoven symphony dates back to 1913, when the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by Arthur Nikisch, recorded Beethoven's Symphony No. 5 in C minor, Op. 67, for the German Grammophon label (its on UA-cam). We can hear the so-called "modern tempo". The conductor, Arthur Nikisch made his conducting debut in 1878. The pianist, composer, conductor and music director Ferdinand Hiller (1811-1885) heard Beethoven's pieces during the composer's lifetime and throughout the 19th century organised concerts with Beethoven's symphonies on the program. So there is a clear overlap here - just TWO generations of musicians between Beethoven's lifetime and the 1913 recording. Many people alive at the time of Beethoven lived on through the mid-19th century and even longer (like Hiller); attending regular concerts for decades. Even when Beethoven went through a less popular phase, his music never disappeared from concert halls. All these musicians and concert-goers could hardly fail to notice such a huge change in tempo IF such a thing occurred.
Quite right. There is an even earlier recording of a complete Beethoven symphony, again no.5, in 1911 from the Odeon Talking Machine Company, Berlin. You can also find it on YT (sometimes with the date 1910). There is a very recent article in the Journal of the American Musicological Society (no. 76, Spring 2023), James Hepokoski, "“Listen and Be Amazed!”: Odeon, Künneke, and the First Recordings of Complete Symphonies", available FREE online (thank you, JAMS) that will tell you all about it. The tempi are of the same order as Nikisch's. And then there is the wonderful recording of Richard Strauss, Berlin 1928. Links back to Beethoven: Strauss as a young man was Assistant to Hans von Bülow, who was a pupil (also later son-in-law) of Franz Liszt, who in 1823 at the age of 11 met Beethoven.
I play Chopin's Op 10 #4. My final speed is minim 80, not quite Chopin's minim 88, but if I play at crotchet 88, as Wim advocates, it so slow that I use it as an easy practice tempo.
At least here I can be amused by Mr. Winters' sideshow and the always entertaining commentary without supporting his channel. It's like enjoying a harmless trainwreck.
I think the best video against Wim’s theory was excluded in the list in the description: ua-cam.com/video/2Td7J7AnDeA/v-deo.html
This one refutes it so overwhelmingly, I haven’t seen any WBMP proponent even begin to attempt responding to it.
Wim has proven time and time again that he is unwilling to "meet his opponents in the open field" as it were, the reason why I state in my brief appearance in this video that double beat has lost the right to academic discussion is because of his blatant warping of information, the banning of detractors, resetting the dislike ratio on his videos when they were being outweighed, and eventually hiding them outright before UA-cam removed dislikes. things like these mean that he isn't taken seriously anywhere outside of small circles.
Thank you for including the links to videos critical of Wim Winters. I do hope that viewers of this video will take the time and effort to listen to them.
Likewise, I do hope that viewers of this video will take the time and effort to listen to a number of Wim Winters' videos. The series on Two Part Inventions, the English and German instruction for Maezel's Metronome, the video that demonstrate that Beethoven couldn't have misused the Metronome, and of course the Maezel Canon Video.
Dear Renshen, I’m not trying to be funny nor sarcastic, but there must be something I’m overlooking. Wim Winters is well versed in tempo ordinario - the time signature C gives 60(80) heartbeat per minute. But when the metronome came, and whole beat tempi was to be practiced, when was the number of heartbeats per minute at the time signature C reduced to 30(40)?
@@Renshen1957 You should be aware that no truly learned professional musician or musicologist takes Wim Wimters’ “theories” seriously. That’s just the way it is.
@@danielwaitzman2118 You shouldn’t talk in absolutes, more than one professional musician has made videos with him. One can conclude that these individuals did “take him seriously.” Which musicians? You will have to watch some videos.
@@Renshen1957 You won’t like it: but anyone who seriously espouses “double-beat” does not meet the minimum standards of professionalism in Music. I needn’t cite historical evidence-the ear and musical sensibility suffice. I am fully aware that nothing could convince you to change your mind about the cult of Winterism; but I say this so that you may know that the musical world rejects his ideas-and there’s nothing that you or he can do to change this. Embrace Wim’s nonsense, if you will; but cease from trying to foist it off on the rest of us. And, yes, these are absolutes-musical, historical, acoustical, biological, and aesthetical. I hope I have made myself absolutely clear.
I challenge advocates of “double-beat” metronome practice to produce credible 19th-century documents advocating the use of TWO clicks of the metronome, not one, to measure the note-value indicated by the metronome signature. Absent such proof, let there be an end to all this blather about double-beat.
It's not just the clicks of the metronome. Does crotchet =60, say, mean 60 crotchets per minute, or 60 crotchets every two minutes? Obviously, 60 per minute. Otherwise, why even bother with the number 60? Why not just write 30 and be done with it? Did the numbers represent beats per minute or not?
I'm with Wim - and I have listened to some of those opposing him - they have not convinced me - but I also continue to keep an open mind
VallaMusic. I try to use logic when arguing against the theory that Wim Winters believes in. Here at UA-cam we find a number of videos of children, 7-12 years old, playing Chopin’s etudes much faster than double beat tempo. We know that Chopin was about 20 years old when he composed opus 10. He had about 10 more years to reach a high level of technical play, but WW want you to believe that Chopin played much slower than the kids!? Be aware of this: Chopin grew up in a time of fierce competition between pianists. So what do you think? Does the theory make sense?
@@geiryvindeskeland7208 good argument - I don't know the answer - i come at it more intuitively as a composer myself - so much is lost at faster speeds - the music becomes a blur - like colors of paint on a canvas that start to drip and run
VallaMusic, thank you for your response. UA-cam is an amazing medium, what we write reaches most of the world. We must show respect for the many who read our comments, therefore what we write must be true.
VallaMusic, quote: « - so much is lost at faster speeds - the music becomes a blur…»
Yes, there are many who make the same point - it is difficult to perceive the details of fast tempi, which is why people think that fast tempi are wrong, but maybe they are correct? The mistake people make is assessing the value of what they hear theough UA-cam. We can’t do that, UA-cam didn’t exist back then. The music was most often performed in the private homes, the audience was in the same room as the instruments, and therefore it was possible to perceive the details despitethe fast tempi. Unfortunately, in our time there are pianists who exaggerate the use of the sustain pedal, and then the music really becomes blur! We know that Chopin warned against excessive use of the sustain pedal. And we must never forget the significant differences between the instruments then and now.
people are just salty about Wim because he is famous, and they attack him to leech on him
EruannaArte. Wim Winters reached its position through manipulations and sencorship, among other things. For civilised people, there is no honor in reaching such a position by manipulate their followers. You apparently also lack knowledge and have therefore also been manipulated by Wim. The signature Liquensrollant has understood it better than you: «Wim has the advanage that most people(like me)don’t know enough to prove him wrong».
This video was very funny, thank you. Wim as some sort of inspirational leader, going against all the close-minded conservatives in music land. Genius! Very well put together with appropriate melodramatic editing. Quite unfortunate that Wim has never given a corporate TED talk of sorts, that would have made the video even more a commentary of this time. Nevertheless, great piece of satire!
I particularly enjoyed the juxtaposition of “you have to make music” (9:40) with the wooden and depressingly unmusical rendition of the 5th, complete with a fermata executed exactly in tempo…
@@minirausch Actually, all those edits of Wim ranting combined with his own incredibly unmusical renditions in the background are hilarious. 10:10 is also great. "You can hear all the notes". Yes, indeed. So powerful. Ploink.... ploink..... p l o i n kk ..... It's like Tommy Wiseau giving a masterclass in acting and using his own performance in The Room as exemplary material.
He's a clown. Apply any of his metronome readings to traditional dances like Tarantella and you will see that his "theory" is a hoax.
Has anyone ever noticed that Wim's videos all have a title that grabs your attention and then, as you begin to watch, waiting for a clear, succinct, and straightforward explanation or declaration of whatever it is, he never actually gets there...he just talks in circles, embarking on any number of tangents and never quite ever getting back to the proposed primary point of his discourse? This is exactly the kind of tactic that cult leaders and marketing sales strategists use to double-talk their way into convincing their prey that what they are saying is important, by making it sound so much more complex and weighty than it actually is. At first, I used to think it was merely because he was speaking English which is not his first language, so I extended him the benefit of a doubt, and when I first discovered his channel had hoped to find truly interesting and inspiring content. I had thought, based on some of his earliest videos, that he would be a beacon of truth...until finally I came upon a video where he tried to argue that Chopin Etudes were all played too fast and then his ridiculous remarks about Beethoven tempi...it was then that I saw through his ruse and came to realize there is a nefariousness embedded in there. Whether it really is intentional misinformation or he truly believes this, I cannot say, nor do I care to make the distinction. I dare him to attempt to apply his WBT to vocal music. He will see quite quickly how easily it is disproved.
Oh my God, Wim Winters tries to grab your attention through attractive video titles, he must be a cult leader!
You have a weird logic 😂😂
Oh by the way, Wim just released Beethoven's 9 symphonies including the 9th with four singers. It is still time to back the kick-starter campaign 😉
@@jeremypresle3412 Wim’s latest video harks back to the Medicine Show of old. How can people fall for such tripe?
@@danielwaitzman2118 Wim raised over 7 000$, quite the success indeed. Hope it made your Christmas holy days better!
@@jeremypresle3412 So people do fall for such tripe. But carnival side-shows and snake oil salesman relied on a healthy percentage of suckers in the population. Plus ça change ...
The OP's point wasn't so much the attention-grabbing title, as the rambling double-talk, making everything sound so much more weighty than it actually is. I would add the presentation of most of his videos: just him, behind a desk, in a subdued setting, looking straight at the camera as if he has you pinned down, talking in a professorial manner, seemingly authoritative, never engaging in true dialogue with anybody who disagrees with him. It is quite compelling, and very much the tactic of a cult-leader.
@@dorette-hi4j Thank you for reminding me how low Wim's opponents can fall...
Whole Beat? How can anyone believe it? Just look at all the historical documents that mention the time a particular piece or number of pieces took in performance. That automatically proves the whole beat concept is incorrect. I'll give the guy (winters) credit for making himself widely known due to the internet but readily available historical facts don't support his theory at all...and neither do our ears... ;)
“Neither do our ears”-that says it all.
The Premiere concert oft Beethovens 5th and 6th symphony and several other pieces in 1808 lasted 4 hours according to Johann Friedrich Reichhardt. If you sum up the durations of this pieces of nowadays performances you hardly reach 2h 45m.
@@tobiashaak3568 Yes, if the orchestra, pianist and singers perform non-stop. But guess what, this whole concert was reproduced several times in 2020. Esa Pekka Salonen with the London Phiharmonia, 4 hours 15 minutes. Louis Langree with the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, 6 hours - including a 2 hour dinner break. Do the math.
Have you ever been to a concert of classical music?
Nobody is claiming that throughout the nineteenth century everybody played exactly, or perhaps even very closely, at the metronome mark (when works had a metronome mark). What is clear from concert durations then, and from early recordings, is that the tempi were in the same range as they are nowadays and were during the twentieth century (there are always a small number of exceptions), and that range is very far from WholeBeat as advocated by Wim Winters.
Search for: «Chopin etudes played by children». They are 9_12 years old, and play the etudes much faster than Wim Winters’ «real historical tempo». Is it still hard to understand that whole beat theory can’t possibly be correct?
I would be more amazed that a child in the current era could compose. Which seems to be a lost skill. Chopin could do it. So could Mozart. Where are the child composers?
Perhaps too much time spent on speed, rather than understanding what they are playing.
1:27. Should Beethoven's 9th be performed in Whole beat or in Single beat? Cobra vs Gardiner. Funeral march vs revolutionary outpouring of joy. Your choice. But if you go for the funeral march, bear in mind that there is no nineteenth-century evidence for that 'Whole beat' interpretation.
Forgive my ignorance, but couldn't this all be settled by finding documents regarding the duration of performances of symphonies etc. and contrasting them with the modern durations?
Wouldn't there be documentation stating that Beethoven's 9th is either 70 minutes long or 140 minutes long?There must be documentation like that.
Yes. Just look up "Historical Evidence of Tempi in the 18th and 19th Centuries" and you'll find a whole research paper on the topic with examples.
(Spoiler alert: they didn't play in whole beat)
Yes, it's been done. And, no, it doesn't support Wim's hypothesis.
Despite the title of the video, there is an awful lot more to be known about Wim Winters and the whole beat theory. To give him the chance to expose his ideas without giving anyone the chance to explain why they don't hold water is to present a deeply unbalanced view, and in fact, to give some veneer of respectability to a conspiracy theory.
I love your WTC analysis videos! Glad to see you’re still active on UA-cam
I loved your responses to Wim and his ridiculous notions, but I must admit I was disappointed with your "olive branch". I should make my own video contesting him from the perspective of vocal music which easily disproves his theory. Everything would become utterly unsingable! Just think of that long high A the sopranos have to hold in the 6/4 section of the 9th Symphony...twice as long would be utterly ludicrous. Beethoven pushed his performers to their limits and slightly beyond, but never to the point of such excess. I hope you are well, I so enjoy your videos!
Well, pianopat will you still type the same after his book comes out? It's not just his ideas, it's the late Wilard Palmer's ideas, Marten Noorduin's ideas...
@@Renshen1957 Just because someone writes a book doesn’t mean it’s true or factual.
@@MicheleAngeliniTenor When the book more than several hundred pages long, has contributions from more than a few musicologists, has citations, data, etc., and is published, Wim Winters will also become an "authority," an individual cited or appealed to as an expert, the word is derived from author, the writer of a literary work (such as a book).
That someone "writes a book doesn’t mean it’s true or factual" also works bothe ways, such as Williams various writings on J S Bach, and easily deflated claims as to J S Bach not being the author of the Toccata and Fugue in d minor, BWV 565. He may have been an authority, there's more than few facts he overlooked. Nor was he in agreement with other authorities.
As to the point, the converse of the your statement is true, "Just because someone writes a book doesn’t mean it’s false or mendacious." I'll be purchasing the book, to check every reference. On the other hand lethargy amoung the hallowed halls of academia with the Ivory Towers, could well use a shaking up.
To that point, some schools are introducing the the concept that whole beat was used. There is a supplement to the Allgemeienen Musikalishchen Zeitung, dated 09/1821 in J. Maelzel wrote Beethoven, Czerny, Clementi et al used the Metronome wrong. I have yet to come across the original, that beggars the question, how did they use the Metronome wrong and was this universal?
there is absolutely no scientific merit to wims wims, he is a cherry-picker of the highest degree and ignores all of his own theorys short comings!
Very nice video, thanks.
Renaissance music was conducted with a simple downstroke and upstroke of the arm which was known as the tactus. This concept is very like the back and forth swing of the metronome.
@Chlorinda Chlorinda, Beethoven still made reference to Tempo Ordinario in 1821, that practice was from 1600 to 1800+.
Why are tempi often too fast? I think its a simple psychoacoustic effect much like pitch perception. Often times our internal ears are faster just like our internal sense of pitch is often a little bit flatter.
This man is dangerous: he thinks sick imagination is right.
Dangerous in what way? A threat to convention beliefs. And Unless you've seen every video on the subject by Wim Winters your character assination is based on what, your disagreement with him. I suggest a closed mind is more dangerous than your alledged claim of "sick imagination."
@@Renshen1957 kindly check your facts. Then check your spelling. And explain “character assination”, please.
@@danielwaitzman2118 As to my typing with my thumbs and misspelling, mea culpa, not that my message was any less clear for my heterographic content with the assistance of my pad’s previous spellcheck “correction”. (I had to copy paste for the next line. )
As to @antoniosilva7083 “This man is dangerous” and the “sick imagination” comments (the latter an accusations of insanity), where do you draw the line for character assassination @danielwaitzman?
Do either of you play the piano? Do either of you possess superhuman powers to play repeated notes faster than a Steinway’s action/humanly possible or play a series of notes faster than the human ear can differentiate the individual notes? Etudes that exceed 22 notes per second and faster or J S Bach, all of the inventions at Czerny’s metronome marks indications in single beat. Some are possible but not everyone. And why would one want to attempt such when the possibility of injury, perhaps permanent injury (focal dystopia, a neurological condition that causes involuntary muscle contractions in the the body or repetitive stress injury, repetitive stress disorders, cumulative trauma disorders (CTDs), and a variety of other names? Which was never Czerny’s intent when he was giving a Tempo in step with Tempo Ordinario, as his preface mentions that the allegros were slower in J S Bach’s time.
There’s been more than one concert pianist historically, and now recently so afflicted and they brought this on with a variety of composers they attempted (and didn’t achieve) playing all of Chopin, Beethoven, et al in Single beat, especially for the works that have yet to be recorded at such a speed but somewhere in between.
He would be dangerous if he had charisma.
I actually found that “whole beat” slower version of that passage from the 9th to be appropriately stately and profound. I don’t have any bones to pick in this controversy, but I think we do need to determine how to interpret metronome markings on older publications of music where input from the composer is hard to come by.
This comment section is so sad
Great summary! I think Wim is right.
rasputozen, Wim Winters, quote: «The best argument FOR the WBMP are the thousands of metronome marks that nobody every will be able to play and we simply ignore». Who told you that, I asked him, but he didn’t answer. A few weeks later I asked him again, and he replied: «It doesn’t matter». The answer is not good enough, because: He tells the entire music-loving world that thousands of compositions are impossible to perform due to too fast MM numbers. But then it is of course important to know the source of the claim! But I know the name - it is Wim Winters. But he is not qualified to claim such a thing. Only the cleverest on their instruments can claim such a thing. Therefore, his main argument for WBMP is of no value.
@@geiryvindeskeland7208 Try the the latter Czerny etudes, at speeds in single beat interpretation in which notes cannot be distinguish (faster that 22 notes per second) or how about Czerny's indications for the Bach Two Part Inventions, which Lisista as an excercise couldn't reach 90% of the MM indications (and no one could reach the A major Invention. Those are in Wim Winters videos. Wim Winters isn't the first, Willard Palmer questioned the MM marks in his edition of Kinderszenen in 1972. Marten Noorduin (University of Manchester) has written more than a few articles such as Re-examining Czerny’s and Moscheles’s Metronome Marks for Beethoven’s Piano Sonatas published in 2017 Cambridge University Press. Wim Winters has quoted these, and I am sure these will be 600+page book which is intended for publication in 2024
If you had taken the time, most music on the concert stage is played somewhere between Wholebeat and Single Beat. Will discount this fact, (which many Wim Winters videos have illustrated) and throw the baby out with the bath water over "The best argument FOR the WBMP are the thousands of metronome marks that nobody every will be able to play and we simply ignore...?'' Have you ever tried playing in single Beat The best argument FOR the WBMP are the thousands of metronome marks that nobody every will be able to play and we simply ignore». Harmony of Angels as indicated by Burmueller in single beat? One of Wim's detractors does not play at that speed.
Franz Liszt said the audience wanted music played like a Charlatan (to Charles Widor). Music conservatories tell piano students to play the music as the public expects it be played.
Hi Renshen. Liquensrollant, quote: «Wim has the advantage that most people(like me)don’t know enough to prove him wrong.»
I am able to discover some of WW’s manipulations and untrue claims, but not all of them because I don’t know everything. Thanks to those people who know more than me so I can be familiar to more of Wim Winters’ manipulations.
As you know, Renshen, manipulations is not accepted on a scientific level.
@@geiryvindeskeland7208 The holidays are upon me so I must give be brief.
You didn't list any manipulations, however, but that is inconsequential, I believe this is most cases is the kettle calling the pot "black."
Are you a pianist or musician?
If so I have an experiment you can perform on the internet...
I await your reply.
chlorinda, many thanks for the full briefing regarding the 1932 source. For me, that’s the most important thing, that the manipulations of Wim Winters become known. I am aware that WW uses the 1932 source as a confirmation for double beat. However, as for the debate over double/single beat, I think that source from 1932 are out of the question because the problem with the introduction of the metronome must have arisen even before 1820. Wim Winters also refers to Max Reger. But Reger was born in 1873, it’s also far too late. Then what happened before 1820? Wim Winters recognizes tempo ordinario, 60 heartbeats per minute in time signature C. The most natural thing must be that, when the metronome was introduced, 60 heartbeats were transmitted to the metronome as 60 audible clicks per minute.
Great comparison of Beethoven 9 in double beat and single beat by the way. Very telling how totally dead, dull and dragging the double beat performance is (check the guy on the left of the screen in the second row at 1:30 looking thoroughly bored and almost trying to hide his face behind his hand. He looks like he is awkwardly attending a mind numbing lecture on sales figures) and the involvement and energy of the musicians in the single beat performance. And Wim has the belief the 'extremement lent' performances are going to revive classical music for the millions? This is "being totally in service to Beethoven"?
You might want to check out this video, ua-cam.com/video/vBFmJVG0wak/v-deo.html Despite the 'clickbait' title it does show a document from the 19th Century with an example of Whole Beat or whatever one wants to label it. And it pertains to Beethoven's 8th Symphony.
I haven't seen this before but I have studied what Wim Winters says, looking at the sources he uses and you and your commentators not only misrepresent what he has said but also the "single beat" practice which seldom to never plays pieces at the tempo indicated by the composers and early editors, they seldom could possibly achieve those speeds EXCEPT IN "SLOW" MOVEMENTS WHICH ARE SOMETIMES PLAYED AT ABOUT SPEED INDICATED IF READ IN "WHOLE BEAT." They do that without bothering with the metronome speed. If those are the right speeds for the slow movements, the speeds indicated for "fast" movements must be read the same way.
I am most impressed by how his critics feel it necessary to misrepresent what he has said and what the sources he uses to support his point of view say. If they could support their reading of it they wouldn't have to misrepresent what he says.
His sources are pretty much exclusively "some pieces are too hard if you play them at the noted tempo".
Many of Liszt's students made recordings. All of them played single beat. As did Brahms.
What i love about this whole debate:. For decades, there was no debate. Every thing must be played as fast as possiblem. Wim cimes in and says, no, thats not correct. He is then attacked as a heretic! How dare he! Everyone knows that chopin and Beethoven should be played as fast as possible! Its the only way you can prove you are a virtuoso!
Afterall, countless pianists have have labored their entire live playing the chopin etudes as fast as possible -- and doing so proves how great they are!
So wim saying that playing to the revolutionary etude atca breaknevk speed threatens the entire career of any orofrssional pianist. That is thd rrason there is such virulent reaction against tiis theory. It renders all their work as pointless.
Do you have any proof of your ' as fast as possible' theory? I have never heard many of Beethoven piano works played as fast as possible.
I don't know how Wim would figure out how to play a Chopin waltz as many have no metronome marking. He needs guidance and none is given.
Oh, please. What Wim is really saying is, hey I don’t have to achieve a professional standard of playing, if I can convince everyone that an amateur level is authentic.
rand503. In a couple of weeks, I hope to present two videos, where I want to reach people like you - debaters with little knowledge. It is important to reach out to you so that you do not continue to spread ntrue and manipulative information to more and more people. It happens that Wim Winters both manipulate and censors to strengthen credibility. Because you do not have enough knowledge to expose the manipulations, it is important that you receive more balanced nformation. «Every thing must be played as fast as possible». «As fast as possble» only applies where the composers write «prestissimo». Only then should it be played as quickly as possible. «Prestissimo» is not often seen compared to the many other terms for pace, therefore it is not a big problem.
As you should know, Wim Winters has an agenda, he believes in a theory that tells about a different understanding of the metronome numbers. Therefore, it is important for him to tell you that music was played mich slower + - 200 years ago. But is it true? Here are a few lines from the book «Beethoven» written by Maynard Solomon. We read: «Beethoven was concerned to maintain his preeminent position and regarded any accomplished pianist as a potential rival. In mid-1794 he wrote to Eleonore von Breuning of his «desire to embarrass» and « revenge myself on» the Viennese pianists, some of whom are my sworn enemies». The book also tells us that Beethoven was invited several times to private homes to compete against other pianists.
Here we get to know the mentality of over 200 years ago. Mentality? Yes - he human urge to compete! For almost 3000 years, people have competed in the Olympic Games. But the pianists back then did not compete in wrestling or discus, no, they competed on the piano. The keys were their sports arena!
For the pianists, it was important to compose so technically demanding that it was considered almost impossible to play. And that can well be the explanation for the «impossible» metronome numbers. But what was the point? Again - the pianists competed! It was about impressing other pianists, music critics and a large audience. «IMO, there is no music in the cirtuoso pieces, it’s just a ridiculous cascade of fast runs!»
Anyway, it was part of the music culture back then, whether we like it or not. But not everything was to be played at fast paces. Don’t you know that the composers piano sonatas also have slow movements or slow sections? It is here that the composers give the pianists ample opportunity to express emptions and moods - it is here that the pianists could really shine with their improvised musical expressions.
Rand503, if you are interested, I can give you several examples that show that Wim Winters is not qualified to tell anyone what is possible to play - for others. You also get examples of his misinformation and manipulations.
Love your videos, but I’ve given up after the first few seconds; you do realise that the US is the only part of the English-speaking world using the German mathematical naming system of the notes - whole note, half note, quarter note, et cetera so your talk becomes almost unintelligible to everyone else.
Most English speakers use semibreve, minim, crotchet and the rest which is also easier for Italian, French, and Spanish listeners as well who similarly do not use the mathematical naming system; the American-English names are virtually unknown and never used outside the US.
An additional problem arises as the American-English ‘whole note’ is a semibreve elsewhere (semi = half); a breve in English is a double whole note in American-English - all endlessly confusing, though I am surprised you were unaware of all this.
It would have been helpful to say ‘…the whole note or semibreve’ rather than lose everyone except your US audience.
The terminology whole note, half note, quarter note, eighth note and so on is logical, easy to understand, and universal among speakers of Teutonic languages, in addition to citizens of the US. It also makes life easier for all those whose native language is not British English. I too use and relish the idiosyncratic British terminology (minim, crotchet, quaver!), but it is ridiculous to cut yourself off from global musicology because of insular prejudice. (Not that Wim Winters is in any sense a musicologist, but that is another matter ...)
And at least, adopting the mathematical system avoids the endless confusions caused by Engish crotchet and French croche!
@@dorette-hi4j
This is simply inaccurate in that the rest of the English-speaking world also uses the ‘idiosyncratic’ (not) terminology that is just ‘insular prejudice’ (ie the home of the mother language doesn’t follow German/US practice).
As I’ve pointed out elsewhere, the mathematical terminology is *not* easier for Italians, French, Spanish and the rest as they too are ‘ridiculous’, suffer from ‘insular prejudice’ because they don’t follow your imagined (ie US) ‘global practice’ (it’s not*), and have a non-mathematical system from where the British one derived.
My point about Wim’s talk was he lost most of his listeners by using in English, American-English terminology which is *not* widely understood outside the limited areas you mentioned, and that it would not have been difficult to say ‘crotchet or quarter note’ which listeners in French or Italian for example would have in their minds translated the English term rather than the American-English one.
* One of the greatest of American musicologists of the 20th/21st century HC Robbins Landon who died in 2009 uses invariably the British terminology you so deride in his extensive writings, and he is not alone.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 I don't deride the British terminology. It is what I learnt. I enjoy its quirkiness, mixing terms derived from renaissance Latin with terms descriptive of the appearance of the note on the stave. I did not say that the terminology was ridiculous. I do think it is ridiculous (a) to suppose that not continually referencing them drives away listeners from the UK and its historical dominions, and (b) to be so offended by their omission that you give up the moment you realize that Mr Winter (whose native language is Dutch/Flemish) is using the other system.
@@dorette-hi4j
You have the last word; you are clearly just reciting a well-rehearsed argument which does not address the points I have raised, nor acknowledge the reality of the geographical limitations of the mathematical terminology of note values.
I simply suggested that the English note values be accorded equal status to the American-English ones because they are more widely used; you have a problem with that, and also fail to acknowledge that other major European languages similarly do not use the mathematical terminology.
Anyone passing by will understand the point.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 I will, then. I do take your points. I just think you are wrong about intelligibility. Perhaps you would not like to admit that the variety of English that has become a universal language is American (US) English. I don't particularly like it either, but it is the way it is. Is it really easier for a Frenchman to remember that in English a blanche is a minim and a noire is a crotchet and a croche is a quaver, than to know about the fractions of a whole note? And would it not make discussions of musical matters rather cumbersome if every time a note value was mentioned you had to give both the UK and the US versions, on the off-chance that someone in Australia might not know the equivalences?
How did a semi-breve become a whole note? Indeed, how did half a short become the longest note in common use? We have to go back four hundred years and more for answers to these questions.
This is.....bad. So bad.
Flat earther of musicology
nah all of musicology is just flat-earth level nonsense.
@@lolbruh1170 Not true. There are good and bad musicologists. Wim is a fraud and a huckster. The late Paul Henry Lang, on the other hand, was the real McCoy.
All of musicology is like that
@@Whatismusic123😂
„Wim Winters - pianist and clavichord player”
He is an *organist* and clavichord player. It needs to be clarified and emphasized.
It takes more to be labeled as a professional pianist, than to study piano as a second instrument for a few years.
He graduated with piano as his main instrument along with the organ...
Wim Winters has not established himself as a professional concert pianist, with a history of concerts in major venues, critical reviews, and awards. Absent these credentials, his academic degree means nothing in the world of professional music-making. He espouses super-slow tempi because he lacks the technique of a professional pianist and concert artist. His ideas have many times been disproved on UA-cam and elsewhere. He is the leader of a cult with no claims to credence as a performer or a scholar. His “whole-beat theory” was disproved 40 years ago.
@@jeremypresle3412 if memory serves me correctly he has a 'docerend musicus' (teaching musician) for piano and 'uitvoerend musicus' (performing musician) for organ.
@@jorislejeune Then let him give a full-length piano recital in New York’s Carnegie Hall or Alice Tully Hall, and another one in London’s Wigmore Hall. Invite the critics! Tell the world “all it needs to know about the Whole Beat Revolution in Classical Music.” And then, give it a rest.
@@danielwaitzman2118 I was just clarifying. Jérémy Presles statement is half-true...
Not that I think that any of this matters: the musical world has musicians without a degree, and musical butchers with all the diplomas one could hope for.
Also on an academic level: I disagree with his double-beat nonsense, and no amount of musical pedigree will make me fall for absurd cherry picking and misreading of crystal clear sources. Not to mention the constant silencing of critics on his channel.
There is no conspiracy, all of this information has long been widely available to everyone and anyone can access it. So many will disagree with WW but you're still left with the same problem, if the metronome was designed to put an end to any doubts about what tempo a composer e.g. Beethoven wanted his music to be played at, why is there so much controversy over this subject. Just a thought on tempo - from where I live in Bristol it takes about 1h 30min/2hrs to reach London. In Mozart and Beethovens' day that journey would have taken several days by carriage, with several changes of horses. My point is, their concept of tempo was very different from ours, their pace of life much slower. Many listeners today who are not supporters of WW double beat will nontheless agree that modern day tempi are getting faster and faster. The drive to sell classical music to a wider and younger audience is largely responsible for this trend. As for some of the outfits modern performers wear, especial the ladies, well.................no names mentioned.
Some of those early Sonatas by Beethoven and Mozart were composed for students to play. Are we to believe they were all able to play the Piano up to the standard of a Pollini or a Yuja Wang? I don't think so!! I support the work WW is doing because he backs up what he says with sound and extensive research and by'n by it is helping to make pieces available to performers who will never measure up to the very best classical musicians. Classical music is becoming strangely elitist when you consider that the desire by music outlets and the music schools/acadamies has been to broaden its appeal.
robintranter, quote: «…if the metronome was designed to put an end to any doubts about what tempo a composer e.g. Beethoven wanted his music to be played at, why is there so much controversy over this subject».
Sorry, but the answer will annoy you. If everyone who wanted to write comments here had to document an education in classical music, WW would hardly gain followers. But because anyone can comment, even those who don’t know, he gets thousands of followers, and that’s why we have this controversy, this endless discussion. Those who don’t have knowledge don’t listen to the musicologists because Wim Winters is very good at manipulation. Sometimes he also censors comments. Whoever is right in their argument does not need to manipulate or censor. So why does Wim Winters have to manipulate and censor?
Wim Winters, quote: «The best argument FOR the WBMP are the thousands of metronome marks that nobody every will be able to play and we simply ignore».
Wim is not qualified to tell you such a thing, and he confirms it himself. Here are some examples:
AuthenticSound (AS) «A Unique Description of Franz Liszt Practicing…»
A reply: «Lang Lang…what a joke».
WW: «Hmm…wish I had his technique though…»
So Lang Lang has a better technique than Wim. But around the world we find many virtuosos, who better than WW know what’s impossible to play. Therefore, his main argument is of no value.
I will continue in a couple of days.
Putting aside journey lengths, then and now, and the strange idea that the pace of life was slower (what does that even mean - people walked half as fast, their heart-beat was around 40?), those sonatas of Beethoven and Mozart intended for early-stage students are immeasurably easier than those intended for performance by themselves or by other experienced and accomplished musicians. They are still played successfully by young students today, at the same speeds (though probably not as well) as a Pollini or a Yang. Of course not all pupils would have gone on to play up to the level of the top virtuosi, then or now. But some of them made it. Carl Czerny, for instance, and Ferdinand Ries, of Beethoven's students.
Wim's research is severely limited by his WB theory, which prevents him from exploring anything that contradicts it, and is by no means sound. Certainly he is enabling people to attempt works far beyond their capabilities with the comforting notion that snail-speeds are 'authentic'. I much preferred it when he was introducing people to the works, mostly quite manageable by amateur pianists and intended for them, of composers like J.C. Bach and Muzio Clementi, or showing how Mozart and Haydn and even Beethoven sounded on the clavichord.
robintranter, part II.
AS, Beethoven sonata opus 14/1.
Reply: «Oof, this first movements really falls apart completely. Another great example of how double beat doesn’t work!»
WW: «yeah, how about the fact that in SBT it isn’t even playable…»
After a little hour on YT I can present this list of pianists who play the first movement faster than SBT, which Wim Winters says is unplayable. All the pianists play the repetition.
WW, double beat tempo: 13:43
SBT: 6:51
M. Korstick 5:45
A. Fischer 5:50
I. Levit 6:05
R. Buchbinder 6:11
Jumppanen 6:15
Sokolov 6:18
Yokoyama 6:31
L. Schwizgebel 6:32
Barenboim 6:45
Robintranter, quote: «…My point is, their concept of tempo was very different from ours, their pace or life muh lower….» That’s right, we live more hectic in our time, but it doesn’t affect the pace of music, and I explain it like this: Nowadays, most people listen to pop and rock, not classical. Because we live in a time of great stress, most pop and rock-music should be played in fast tempi, , but that is not the case. Most of pop and rock is performed in fairly moderate tempi. We know that pianists played very quickly + - 200 years ago, it is explained by man’s urge to compete. In the book «Beethoven» written by Maynard Solomon, we read: «Beethoven was concerned to maintain his preeminent position and regarded any accomplished pianist as a potential rival. In mid-1794 he wrote to Eleonore von Breuning of his «desire to embarrass» and «revenge myself on» the Viennese pianists, some of whom are my sworn enemies». We also read that Beethoven was invited several times to private homes to compete against other pianists. The extremely fast MM numbers confirm a music scene with competition. It was about doing to impress pther pianists, music journalists and audiences.
Robin Tranter, if you want to participate in the debate and be respected, you need to turn your back on WW. I can go on and on with a number of examples, but I have some other things to do. But wait! . ..to my delight, I found this in WW’s video: My «Immoral Tempo Allegations…» 2:30, «….and I take that etude in such a different - even claiming that it’s a really hitorical tempo. I should change those titles…»
He’s not saying he’s abondoned the theory, no, he’s not saying that. But he acknowledges that he perhaps went too far in claiming that his performances of Chopin’s etudes were historically correct. This is gratifying by Wim Winters! There he took a step in the right direction. I hope that he takes even more steps in the right direction, lest thusands of ignorant people be fooled into believing in a theory that has never been able to work the way WW presents it.
And once again, I mention the kids here at YT. A number of videos show children, 7-12 years old playing Chopin’s etudes much faster than double beat tempo. We know that Chopin was around 20-22 years old when he composed the etudes. He had 10 more years to reach a virtuoso level, and Wim said Chopin played much slower than the kids! Totally illogical!
Remember - it was a competition between the pianists, several old sources tell about it. And then you should be smarter than Wim and realize this: Chopin’s etudes in double beat tempo wouldn’t impress anybody!
Again, I have to apologize for spelling mistakes.
@@geiryvindeskeland7208 Great comment (don't worry about the odd typo). I listened to that truly awful performance of Op.14.1, and saw the rest of Wim Winter's snarky reply "yeah, how about the fact that in SBT it isn't even playable. All the rest is just habit and opinion. As Dr Marten Noorduin once said: in tempo research, leave your taste at the front door please. And besides that: would you believe I released a recording if I wasn't pleased with the result. Yes, the universe of taste and insight not only turns around [the OP] ..."
He was pleased with the result! He has certainly left his taste at the front door, supposing he had any to leave. He should have been rather more critical.
Whole just sounds better. You can actually hear the harmonies, etc.
You can hear all the harmonies in single beat also. You happen to like sloooooooooooww music.
@@Pablo-gl9dj
My heart beats 54 bpm, so yes, the slooooooower the better.
@@backtoschool1611 how profoundly unmusical can one be?
Please read this very very slowly.
This comment section shows just how rotten the classical music community is. There needs to be a complete revival from the ground up. This generation of musicians is already poisoned
That is too broad a statement by far.
@@danielwaitzman2118 I don't think it is. Try playing Beethoven's Pathetique at half note 90 in a concert hall and see what happens. Try uploading a recording to UA-cam of a performance like that and see what people say
@@thomasphelmer2657 Do you agree, or disagree, with Wim Winters’ preachings? Kindly enlighten us: In what respects is the “classical music community” “rotten”? and what is your definition of the classical music community?
@@danielwaitzman2118 I agree that the double beat theory is a very likely option for resolving the issues with a lot of 1800’s metronome marks. I don’t believe it was as far spread as Wim Winters believes. But I do think it was definitely used.
By “the classical music community”, I mean the body of people who take a particular interest in classical music and are actively involved in the discussions surrounding it.
They’re rotten because they’re a bunch of self aggrandizing, arrogant, tantrum throwing, snarky, unsympathetic, two faced jerks. I know that’s not everyone. I know I’m making a generalization. But I think it holds true in a lot of cases.
They pride themselves on reconstructing the composers’ intentions, down to the smallest detail, making sure they get every articulation and dynamic shift perfect, but then they also speed through allegros as if they’re prestissimos. They put up elegant facades and pretend they do their work for love of music, but then throw tantrums whenever someone plays something slower than they’d like.
And you should see these people in lessons. Once you get high enough in performance, teachers are perfectly comfortable screaming at students. They don’t know the first thing about controlling their emotions. And students just pretend it’s completely normal because as soon as they say they’re not going to be screamed at by an elitist with a god-complex, they’re suddenly kicked out the “club” and replaced by someone else.
It’s a toxic environment where everyone is just trying to out-speed each other. Again, I know I’m generalizing. But I think this is an accurate characterization
@@thomasphelmer2657 I shall try to answer your very thoughtful and nuanced post as best I can:
There are many "classical music communities": performers of various schools and repertory concentrations; aficionados of various levels of erudition and of many different fields of primary interest; critics; musicologists of many types; composers of many persuasions--and, last but not least, nut cases. Wim Winters falls into this last category. Music, I must emphasize, is a vastly more esoteric and élitist field than most music-lovers realize. It takes enormous talent to attain excellence in the fields of performance, composition, and scholarship. Thus, most of those who post on social media are not at all competent to evaluate such things as the "double-beat theory"; and they tend towards the abusive, ignorant rantings of the semi-literate. I can tell you, categorically, that there is absolutely no musical, nor aesthetic, nor historical foundation for the doubler-beat theory. Find me a nineteenth-century document that cites "double-beat" as anything but an error: you will come up empty-handed. There are indeed some apparently anomalous metronome indications, not only from the early nineteenth-century, but from succeeding eras as well. I can tell you, as a composer, that composers tend to hear their own music in their minds' ears at excessive tempi: this is a known psychological phenomenon. I can tell you that old instruments can play faster than you would believe; and that the human perception of speed has not changed for a million years or so. I can tell you that the old masters were at least as human as we are. I can also tell you that metronome indications tend to be far less important than the older Italianate tempo rubrics, precisely on account of the iron-clad specificity of numerical notation. Above all, it is the performer's sensibility that must serve as the final arbiter. The very idea of "tempo research" is a spurious one: see Vlad Vexler's excellent video on Wim Winters. Next, there is the question of whether or not the performer's final goal must be the reconstruction of the composer's "intentions", or, rather, something else entirely.. For a discussion of this, I refer you to my Amazon Kindle book, "Up from Authenticity." In brief, a musical performance is not a fixed artifact, as is a painting, but something quite different. Amateur aficinados tend towards verbal abuse, as you recognize: but they are hardly representative of the MUSICAL community at large. Professional musicians, when confronted by the abusive hortatory rantings of the ignorant and the musically demented, tend to lose their tempers: that is true. There is also a lot of back-biting amongst professional musicians and academicians: blame human nature for that, and the fiercely competitive worlds of Music and of scholarship. There is not the same reality-check in these fields that you find in, say, engineering. The publicity apparatus that governs the concert stage tends to emphasize the extra-musical over the musical--because most listeners cannot really judge the subtleties of performance; nor does "classical" music any longer occupy a central position in our culture. Good teachers do not scream and shout at their students: my teachers did not; and I did not behave in this fashion towards my students. The very idea sets my teeth on edge. You must realize that musical performance and music instruction are examples of human relations: and humans are very imperfect creatures. In the field of professional music-making, there is more nastiness and dishonesty than even you would believe; and I could tell you stories aplenty: but the kernel of Music is something wonderful and sacred; and the best performers will manage to preserve this somewhere within the deepest recesses of their souls. Many performances are indeed too fast: there seems to be a particularly nasty species of glibness amongst some "early-music" groups that compels them to race and prance about like demented pixies: but this is not something that calls for Wim Winters' "solution." Wim Winters is a sad and musically demented nut case; and we have all given him far too much attention and energy. I don't know to what degree you will make sense of this post; but I have done what I can to the best of my ability. Be careful about whom you do battle with; and think thrice before you do battle at all. And that is all I can say.