Much Less Meh | Fender '64 Custom Hand Wired Deluxe Reverb Pt 2
Вставка
- Опубліковано 4 січ 2024
- Easy Fixes that Shouldn't Be Necessary
These simple changes eliminated hiss, buzz, and static, gave the amp the correct amount of gain for a Deluxe Reverb, and eliminated the feedback from the reverb circuit.
Part one:
• Meh | Fender '64 Custo...
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These are things I get asked about a lot :
Amp Tech Gear Used :
Hakko FX-951 soldering station
Weller SPG 80L soldering iron (chassis work)
Rigol DS1054Z digital oscilloscope
Thsinde 18B+ digital multimeters
Kester 60/40 solder
Techspray #4 No-Clean Desoldering Braid
Below are things that make this channel possible that people don’t usually think about. If any of these companies want to send me new and wonderful toys, I’m open to that. I can’t take free stuff when it comes to the amps I review, etc, but for the stuff below, bribe away!
Microphones/Audio Equipment :
Guitar Amps : Royer R-10 Hot Rod and/or Shure SM57 (noted in videos)
Voiceover Bench : sE Audio sE8 (small diaphragm condenser)
Voiceover Streaming : Shure SM57 with shockmount and windscreen
Voiceover Mic Arms : Elgato Wave Mic arms
Guitar Mic Stand : Gator Frameworks short weighted base stand with boom
Mic Cables and Guitar Cables : Mogami/Neutrik
Mic pre : MOTU M2
DAW : Logic Pro X on MacBook Pro 16 running Sonoma 14.0
Plugins : No effects other than level matching/normalization unless a recording
specifically has reverb etc added in post (rare, various Waves plugins)
Monitors : Yamaha HS7s
Monitor Stands : Gator Frameworks Desktop Clamp-On Stands
Monitor Isolation Mounts : IsoAcoustics Iso-Puck Minis
Headphones : Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro (main)
Headphones : Sony MDR-7506 (alternate)
Video Equipment :
Camera : Sony ZVE-10 with SmallRig Cage (main)
Lens : Sigma f2.8 18-50mm (main)
Lens : Sony ZVE10 kit lens (rarely used)
B Camera : Apple iPhone 13 Pro (rarely used)
Tripod : SmallRig 71” with SmallRig Fluid Video Head
Streaming Mount : Elgato Master Mount S with SmallRig Ballhead
Bench Light : SmallRig RC 120D
Bench Light Diffusor : SmallRig Lantern Softbox
Bench C-Stands (light and overhead camera) : Neewer Pro SS Heavy Duty
Streaming Light : SmallRig RC 120B
Streaming Diffusor : SmallRig Parabolic Softbox
Streaming Light Mount : SmallRig 148CM Wall Mount Boom with Triangle Base
Various Other Lights : Neewer LED Panels with Neewer Softboxes
Video Software :
Davinci Resolve 18.6
Paul Leeming LUTs
Adobe Illustrator 28.0
Adobe Photoshop 25.0
Ecamm Live (streaming software)
I don't understand how a company like Fender doesn't have a person like Lyle guiding them through making these amp designs.
They most probably have, they just do not listen to him, because of costs:)
@@zsebora100% agree. I believe same happens in every big company these days. Certainly it is present in mine. Decision makers are not competent enough for the roles they hold but they’re aggressive enough to get those positions in firm. Sad and frustrating 🤷♂️
The people in the offices do not listen to the people on the floor.
You seem to have a very different view of Fender than I have.
products are typically built to a price point, not a quality point.
Agree completely. For the price, the amount of work needed to make it perform as advertised is pathetic.
I have one at the moment at home and what I can say is that it sounds wonderful without modification. the tremolo is incredible, the reverb is very usable and progressive. the normal channel is great.
I too have one and it sounds damn good in every respect. I suspect that every now and then, one that has issues gets by their QA folks and gets shipped off. I'm assuming Fender has quality inspectors checking what's coming off their assy. lines and looking at each one before it's considered complete.
Fender should use this as a training video for their design engineers and production team.
They should "invite" all expenses paid all year around any techs or students that want to learn how to maintain Fender amps "World-wide" and Lyle should be the "Shaman". Man.
I’ve owned this amp since they first came out. Never been happier with my tone nor have I gotten more compliments on my tone in 35+ years of gigging. Fender did something right.
You sir are a master at your craft! You are very generous to share the wealth of knowledge that you possess. Keep up the good work!
but that's just..... your opinion man :)
@@jancreighton An about 47,600 other ppl ... duh 🤣
@@jancreighton 😅😅😅
Great videos, Lyle! Thanks for posting all of these; they are so informative! I bought a used ‘ 65 Deluxe Reverb re-issue; it sounded great when I bought it. I had my local amp tech convert the app to hand wired and it sound 10 times better, and all in the cost of the amp + upgrade to HW was about a third less expensive or half as expensive as buying the ‘64 handwired, which, obviously, as Lyle has shown, is still a mess.
This is USD 2700 plus sales tax in Australia . I can get a damn good secondhand Matchless DC30 or Chieftain 212 for less . Your tutorials are marvelous . I'm very impressed with your approach .
Bias wiggle trem is an improvement feature to me. I never cared for tremolo until I tried a Princeton
If I was to get a new/used tube amp...I would have Lyle bring it up to it's most reliable and best sounding as it can be.
Hats off to a master of his craft.😎👍👍
At work, I described your work to a "professional" guitarist, he owns one of these amps from back then. I gave him the link to your channel. If I could drive my Fender down your way.... Your opinion would always be taken as "the" way. Like the work Ted Woodford produces, yours is rare and sets a standard we all wish to access locally. Mighty nice Lyle!
The chime sounds so darn good. And the reverb is lush. Critics need to calm down - this amp is much better sounding than the other so-called boutique amps!
It's the best 1x12 you can buy off the shelf, period.
If it's working....
That is the only "New Fender" that actually sounds like a really good "Old Fender" amp, even better in fact since you gave it your "Once-over"! We don't really need to hear any-one else play it cos we can dig it just fine now!
This is one Fender amp I will not be buying along with any other Fender amp unless it is an original one...great work Lyle.
Aloha and Mahalo Lyle. Thanks for going through the layout and explaining the differences and short comings.
Your careful work has paid off nicely. The sound now is quite a welcome contrast to what it was from the factory.
Sounds unbelievable after your hard labour. Thanks for sharing ❤
That 220k/220k voltage divider might be dumping too much signal. The quickest path to AC ground at that point on the traditional circuit is through the normal channel mix resistor, the 0.047uF coupling cap, and the 100k plate resistor for V1B. This ignores the triode, which is the case with V1 pulled anyway. A 330k in series with a 0.047 in place of the added 220k should mimic the behavior more closely since the cap gives it a frequency dependency--but is likely large enough to mostly ignore. The added 220k is throwing away ~10% more gain than it should.
I did a big spice model of this a while back, but I was modeling V1 with its triode. I can't find it now, but IIRC it suggested 280K was pretty much the ticket, so 270K closest standard. In practice I find 220K-330K all gives good results. Bear in mind the increased B+ with V1 pulled. so headroom increases a bit - it's kind of a subjective choice within that range.
I want you to know I'm not arguing with you or saying you're wrong - this stuff is fun to think about.
As usual - very nice job! For 10pF cap, if ceramic, NPO / COG are the best option these days. NPO / COG are superior to all other ceramic formulations in every way except physical size.
Sounds great…now. Thanks for the reverb tube wiring tip!
Excellent work Psionic. WTH Fender Custom Shop. Disappointing to say the least
Dripping with reverb - great job!
What a difference it makes with just a little TLC. I have to question the modern manufacturing methods. My 57 Custom Champ (bought used) is good but my SF Champ gives it a run for it's money. I re-housed my non-verb Princeton in a MojoTone cab with a Celestion G12M-65 and it is blissful. Thanks for ALL your excellent videos and brutally honest observations.
Great choice of speaker. I have swapped out the stock Jenson speaker for a Celestion in my Fender amp.
Ahhhh....I wish I was a fly on the wall to hear Jimi record Little Wing through his 59 Bassman back in the day! I wish that I never sold my 2004 reissue! Oh well!
Another awesome video ! Have you ever had a MARSH amp on your workbench? I have a Marsh Springfield (copy of a 65 Vibrolux) with the Overlord circuit! All handwired no PCB. The sound is amazing...all for about a quarter of the price of a boutique amp!
2:05 For me personally I MUCH prefer bias tremolo, but I understand it's not what originally came in the Deluxe.
Your playing is sounding nice, mate. Holidays do wonders for technique!
Eh… I played A major instead of minor. Ruined it for me, lost steam after that.
After hearing you comment on the presence of the F&T filter caps vs. Spragues found on a different unit, and then seeing your comment about the series 2.2nf / 250pf caps on the normal channel... I gotta wonder if electronic component part allocations affected Fender just like they did so many other electronic device manufacturers due to pandemic-induced supply chain restraints.
Can't get a supply of the right value cap? Put a couple parts we have in plentiful supply in as an equivalent-value substitute!
My work was heavily influenced by electronic part supply shortages, and like other electronics R&D labs and manufacturers, we had to get creative with what we were able to source to stay in business. And you probably already know that we're still not out of the wood yet regarding parts supply.
About LDRs, European here.
I had to draw and 3d print myself the housing for a couple of double element LDRs for a Red Knob (the) Twin recently. I could source the LDR elements and LEDs separately no problem, but not the assembly. On top of that, those were the weird one led - two LDRs in one casing ones, so some fun... I think it is the Cadmium in the Cadmium sulphide cells, there is a kind of an exemption for the cells themselves but not for the assemblies. And I also know that fixing a red Knob Twin is an exercise in futility, but it belongs to a friend.
CDE on the silver mica . Nice on the wire relocation .
I'm happy to hear you say f&t are better quality. I've never bought sprauges for any of my builds, just based on the insane pricing. F&t are bad enough haha
Fantastic work 👌👍👏🎸
One thing I like about my Deluxe Reverb is that there is no reverb or tremelo on the 2nd channel and the 1st channel therefore doesn't have the extra gain stage, I really enjoy the sound of the 1st channel, sometimes I prefer it.
GREAT VIDEO MAN!!!!
Nice job Lyle!
Looks like Fender are being strangled by modern project management techniques. Set cost and timescale to get to market without regard for the quality of the end result. It's a disease affecting most industries these days. Still, got to keep the stockholders and the VCs happy. Luckily there are still people left who do value quality. Always nice to see one such person in action.
Sounds SO SO much betta!
Sounds nice Lyle.
Nothing like Fender reverb to my ears.
I believe the '65 reissue has an opto trem and Fender sell them in europe so I doubt that was the reason behind the bias trem option for this amp. Anyway, great vid as usual, Lyle ! Will rewire V3 just like you did on this one next time I open it up and will also check if all the hardware is tight 😉
The EU version of the 65 and 68 have a little solid state daughter board added on to replace the opto trem. No LDR in those either.
Thanks for clarifying this. Those EU regulations are crazy ! Stangely enough you can still buy LDRs from TAD...
@@matboucheI think the EU allows the CdS Cell based trem roach as it is a repair part and not a new design/new manufacture.
Holy mizzoli! What a difference.
Does the reverb sound sandy or gritty to you sir? You mentioned the Princeton circuit, while my 65 FPRI sounds much smoother if you will. Thanks for your presentation Psionic Audio!💯✌️
Thanks for this, I've dodged a bullet as a result.
Sounds great
The key phrase here is: "the cheapest possible." If someone wanted to give me $3000.00 I could build a much better DR than that.
Yeah, a guy with lots of experience built me a Blackface Deluxe for $1,600 and it's really good. Looks a lot better inside than this amp.
I don't remember the wiring looking like that in the advertisement photo for this amp.
you know your stuff. kudos!
@PsionicAudio Thanks for the interesting videos! So in substance, if we leave out (please!) for a while the sloppy build (loose bolts, poorly mounted internal fuses, "cosmetic capacitors" etc.) as well as the "value for money" discussion; the main DESIGN flaw of this amp, which has a direct impact on its sound quality, is the way the two channels are being mixed (generating the high idle white noise)?
Any thoughts on addressing bias trem clipping? I've fought that heavily on a 6G3 build and never REALLY got the clipping gone without the trem being super weak at higher gain settings.
I just received a 64 custom last night. I was really nervous about placing the order due to the reviews about hiss and already had plans to send it back. To my surprise it’s absolutely quiet. Now I’m wondering if fender has corrected the problem or if the build quality is that inconsistent. The most surprising thing though is, it’s not much louder than my 64 Custom Princeton . Definitely fuller sounding.
Love the 'new' reverb. Did you stick with the OEM tank on this? It sounds so much better than the tank/circuit in my 80s The Twin.
It’s the stock Ruby after the mechanical repair.
What's the percentage of bitterness compared to the printed circuit board reissues. Is it worth the extra cost. And can you get the PCB to sound as good
Are Orange Super Crush amps any good? For $699 they sound well, but I mean Blackstar sound decent but I know their not that reliable. I’d like a sub $1500 amp, I mostly record with modelers though
This amp was so noisy when I played it at my store. Only reason I passed on it. Never had an issue with their tweed reissues
Scads of good info!
Excellent presentation, with so much helpful information!!! I wanted to ask for your brief thoughts on the Fender Chris Stapleton Princeton Reissue? I recently purchased one and found many of the same issues you experienced on this Deluxe Reissue, primarily the poor tightening of components. Totally not expected on a $2,400, 12-watt amp! I'd appreciate your insight if you're willing to provide it, as I respect your level of expertise greatly!!!
Thanks. I’ve not had that model in but I would expect the build quality to be the same as the other RI amps.
Thank you, Lyle! You provide an incredible kindness to those musicians who are blessed to have experienced the wisdom and knowledge you so willingly share!!!
Your playing is fine. I see you’ve changed your test lick to something more tasteful 😂
Thanks Lyle.
I can't believe those blue/yellow caps are all show no go
They’re not, don’t take something someone says as fact. Do some research, and check it out for yourself.
Makes me glad I got a tone king, what do you think of them?
Any new hand wired amps you would recommend?
Looking at that makes me feel much better about my lead dress.... 👀
I've tried one at my local store and it sound fantastic!! But now I would like to know if the wiring inside is a mess or not!! I'm interested with the 68 custom deluxe too!! Would you recommend it?? The only thing I have to try is the blonde tonemaster deluxe reverb before I'll make my decision!
What a sloppy mess of spaghetti inside. Good job fixing the hum
Much better!
I have my eyes on this amp but now I am a little confused. I’ve tried the 68 custom deluxe Reverb and love the sound. What amp do you recommand the most: the 64 handwired or the 68 custom? In both way does I need to understand that I will see my tech to get them in a good shape?
Totally proper now👊😎
What is the right way to add reverb to each channel?
How do you think this amp compares to tmdr?
Love these videos. BTW, the CDE micas are at CD Distribution now!
Did I catch that the normal channel is disabled? That is unfortunate option for a $50 dollar amp, let alone a $3k amp. Captain Obvious
It was the least expensive way to remove the noise as the owner doesn't use the Normal channel. As the board doesn't have eyelets for the usual Normal channel output cap or its associated mix resistor, this was the least intrusive option, though it would not be my preference. It's a piss poor design.
No critique of you. It was a critique of the design for sure.
Could you build someone a Mojotone kit for under $3k? Just curious, don’t worry, I won’t ask you to build one.
This thing is a steaming pos! i'll stick to my standard DRRI. thanks for making us aware its not so great x
Hi there, very interesting thank you, so would you say these Fender hand wired amps are no way near as good as they should be given the money they cost?
I found a mint used one on Reverb and it's perfect with no issues whatsoever. I also saved ~$1K off the new list price by going used.
Could you give us an idea what the level 1, 2, and 3 services would cost? Thanks!
Level one was bench fee of $150 and $5 in parts (prices as of 1-24). Level two would be $245-$325. Level three would be $330-$410. Probably the higher end of the estimates as I’d have to remove a lot of bad solder to then redo things properly.
I’ve owned one of these amps since they came out… but I want the amp Fender promised, not the one they delivered…
would love to hear the owner play it, a link maybe?
Given the apparent need for (or strong improvement dependence on) service and mods, would you recommend saving the money and getting a 65 Deluxe alongside a tech's expertise, or is it still 'worth it' in your opinion to cough up the premium for the 64?
I don’t see the 64 as any kind of premium. Get a used 65 RI and have a tech recap it and move screens/heaters to the octal sockets.
@@PsionicAudio You're a gentleman and a scholar, thank you sir!
That 2n2 in series with 250pF: Perhaps if there is DC voltage to be blocked and that 250 pF cap is of poor quality, that 2n2 could just be a safety feature. 😁
They used a solo 250pF on the other channel.
For those new to series caps, 2.2nF in series with 250pF gives you 224.5pF. Extra expense to achieve nothing.
@@PsionicAudio God only knows what they were thinking. Well, maybe even God doesn't understand what they were thinking. 😁
Who is the person you said was going to demo this amp and they have a UA-cam channel?
Yeah . ? .? . I liked the video cause it is truthful. Nice to see that even in 1970 fender, um, cough cough, America, did a great job in manufacturing. Nowadays, mostly money making/grabbing advertising. However that still is a clean looking wired amp that this video creator/amp specialist could work on and make it better. Fender is the one who should be ashamed and learn from this video. It's their responsibility to learn from this or lose their customers. It's simple for all of us in all professions. Do your best and do what's right. Be honest. Otherwise, good luck, cause someone else will get the money.
Nice job. It is a shame that it has to be worked from the factory. Luckily it can be worked relatively easily.
Would some of these issues with the gain, etc. be mitigated if the owner left a tube in V1? Almost sounds like Fender is counting on the end user not pulling a channel tube like is possible on the originals.
It’s still too noisy in stock form with all tubes present.
Custom shop must mean more attention to the wrong details..
Bought the hoopla, promptly sold the hoopla.
I’m surprised you didn’t replace the cap at C27 with a better cap.
That would be the next stage, if the customer wants to go that route.
Psionic Audio, I agree with you on one thing, this is all just your opinion.
Drawn from working on hundreds of actual sixties era Fenders. But yeah. Just that.
It nearly gets into your category of too well repaired for Fender to get credit. Sadly that’s before you solve the rest of its problems. You need an add on badge for mods. The Marshalls should get it too.
all the best for 2024 Lyle ... you know for how long the owner played the amp until he decided to bring it to a tech?
No, but it’s only a year or two old.
64 Custom with 74 Spaghetti Western Mod...
Why am I not shocked by lazy manufacturing? Maybe, it is because it is becoming more common.
What a mess of wires, nothing like the Original 64 Princeton Reverbs.
Cadmium is indeed the metal in old Fender trem circuits. It's also a terrible environmental toxin so while Fender should be more upfront that they can't exactly replicate the old amps, I'm very much fine with them not using it anymore.
And how much does that do to save the environment? Lol
Chip, chip, chipping away.
European detected
@@TeleCaster66 Across millions of units, in various sectors of industry, combined with the other harmful substances that would be included in the same regulation? Quite a bit.
@@ukmnu2142 and you're... a "conservative" American?
The Fender Marketing Corporation that also happens to make mediocre amps while co-opting a former legacy.
Soundtrack by Quentin Tarantino!
My first thought was that you sounded clean and practiced not rusty.........
Sadly Fender of today is a modern company where cost is key, and minimizing it at all cost is the priority.................Quality plays somewhere down the line.
Now we all know Leo Fender was indeed mindful of costs and keeping them low, but the build quality of his workers was top notch and was NEVER dropped to make a buck.
Fender's under Leo's ownership were professional built and assembled instruments, and it's been a long falling level since then, with small bursts of hope here and there.
Just saying guys for $3000 you could just get a REAL 1968 deluxe reverb for that money
The express goal of every capitalist enterprise - aside from certain niche, luxury offerings: Sell the Worst Possible product one can get away with (expressed, of course, as optimizing Efficiency, limiting Expenditures, etc.) - right up to the point (or just Before, rather) the product becomes unacceptable to consumers and sales diminish.
The Private Equity mantra - though Fender hasn't Yet sold out (if it's this bad now, god help us when it Does).
Instead of buying a fender, could you build me a deluxe reverb?
Tube amps had their day, assigning prestige to them as if they are magical is not my thing. To me it's just an old appliance that costs too much to keep running. They're unusable at home, they cost a fortune and they're a bear to lug around. A ss combo like a line 6 catalyst is sooo much better. I admire the people who keep the tube amps running, like this guy, but let's not pretend tube amps are better anymore, okay?
So sad how far Fender has fallen, i guess that’s what you get when you’d rather sell a million average things than a few great ones.
You have made me rethink buying a reissue. I feel disgusted by the amount you have to pay for the level of craftmanship. They sound great but you want them to last. But hey that's just my opinion man - this aggression will not stand.