What a beautiful interview. I feel like what Mike is helping a lot of us realize is that "there is no bottom" to Life: it's cognitive light cones all the way down.
Finally someone else talking about Boyd. The OODA loop comes from the context of survival (developed by a guy whose formal education was mostly in engineering, but also delved into physics and Chinese philosophy and military history) and that was abstracted into strategy theory, but it’s also a kind of theory of consciousness in its fullest conception. Most military teachers of maneuver warfare are unaware of this framing. I’ve been wanting to connect this language with TLC language for a long time. I think this is part of why I feel like I connect well to Jordan’s approach and way of speaking.
So many interesting little sprouts from this conversation! 27:20 Memory Anonymization as cognitive glue - What came up for me here is the concept of theurgic 'revelations' in the imaginal space. Co-created content from interaction with archetypes, intelligibilities, deities, etc. etc.
My favorite person outside of my family got a shout out on Stephen Colbert. Stay amazing Mr. Levin, Insha'Allah are going to get the noble prize, and your associates.
35:25 hold up someone needs to ask Michael about the "other ways", and what his facial expression implied. It's fine that it didn't get asked here because the rest of the conversation was also super interesting. That story/conversation among neurons Michael shared was so good. It was really cool to see these two combined together in this way.
I hope you win an award. Reporting on material conditions and capital cuts through all the PR. (You should get local rappers to design a channel 5 dialectical materialism shirt "two things can be true" or maybe just short hand" two things")
Dr.Levin, your research is of the highest importance for science and humanity, it unlocks so many cross-relationships between the biophysics of information and physics in general. I am rooting for you to succeed, the applications of your findings, if proven correct, will impact medecine, computing and physics for ever.
12:55 Jordan’s three embodiments: 1) Human indigenous group - the baseline (sports, limits of scale) Forking event 2) bureaucracies - institutional Forms (literacy? Propositional mediums?) scales more easily. Asymptotic limiting factors (technological Babel) 3) markets - scale arbitrarily (or in ways that are unable to be traced?) nothing is arbitrary, it’s just unnamed or inarticulable. He then says these arose in an evolution of conscious spiral of eras.
For me, it's the way we all see things in at least slightly different ways. It's the variation in engagement of all of these different points of reality. How can we not appreciate the differences in others when differences are infinite, even with those closest to us?
Very nice conversation, it ties in many things I have been thinking about recently. it seems less about maximally scaling up one's cognitive light cone and more about developing a life path that harmonizes internal and external reality, culminating in the entrainment of a hyperobject
@@TheMeaningCode Using hyperobject to mean a dynamical system that is beyond the collective human ability to understand or control and entrainment to mean a coupled dynamical system, or generally, the bidirectional conforming of two state/representation spaces. I think psychologically this manifests in things like archetypal daimons or synchronicity
Without even watching the full vid yet I'm compelled to say that I'm with Kastrup in that Levin just might be one of the most important people alive today. Not to marginalize any of the work done by other experts in his or different fields or anything but, I'm not really even into biology generally speaking yet virtually all of the things he's been working on blow my mind on many levels.
I was talking to the robot and ended up sharing OODA loop inadvertently while discussing the way to confront Chaos as a generalized integration of new information. The Observe step was moved to second (so it became Act Observe Orient Decide), and the act step was a homeostatic adversarial reaction to the introduction of chaos. Practically speaking, without action, a structure doesn't exist. I think it's the missing piece in the military version of the concept, and the reason they bias toward observe orient decide before action is an institutional bias. Likely, at different layers of analysis, the OODA loops is like singing in rounds. Act^1->Act^2Observe^1->Act^3Observe^2Orient^1->Act^4Observe^3Orient^2Decide^1. The observe step is the first-degree actions precipitated by whatever the initiator is, and decision is the cutoff point where the network freezes before conducting the next action--or at any rate, the inputs that decide the action are set and not alterable. The process I discussed (as summarized by the robot) was: 1. Adversarial Reaction Rooted in Self Purpose: This initial reaction is grounded in self-preservation, setting up the domain of chaos and framing it as either a threat or a non-threatening unknown. By immediately constraining inputs to maintain structure and homeostasis, your mind creates a defensive space where chaos can be evaluated from a secure standpoint. Constrained Focus: By limiting the inputs in the face of potential danger, you're ensuring that unnecessary or overwhelming information doesn’t interfere with the more essential task of survival or balance. This step is critical in triaging potential threats, allowing you to prioritize what matters most in the moment. 2. Effort and Activation Energy Purpose: After identifying the domain of the chaotic phenomenon, your brain measures the effort and energy required to engage with it. At this point, the emotional register-whether anger, fear, joy, or humility-signals the level of friction or resistance that the chaos poses to your existing structures. Energy Investment: The decision to integrate or dispense with chaos likely hinges on this measure. The emotional energy serves as both a guidepost and an indicator for how much focus and cognitive effort will be spent on making sense of the chaos. This process resembles triage, determining which stimuli deserve deeper attention and which can be dismissed or absorbed with minimal effort. 3. Mobility and Perspective Shift Purpose: Once the degree of activation energy is measured, you then explore mobility by comparing options and shifting perspectives. This is where the process of evaluative comparison takes place: weighing potential outcomes, assessing relative values, and figuring out what possibilities are available for engagement with the chaotic input. Flexible Adaptation: Your ability to shift perspectives at this stage gives you the flexibility to adapt to new information and potential paths. By evaluating different options, you are actively engaging in a fluid assessment that allows you to pivot depending on how chaos unfolds. 4. Temporary Freeze and Cascade of Actions Purpose: A temporary freeze follows, during which further evaluation pauses, and the chaotic input is converted into decisions and actions. This stage reflects a critical moment of synthesis, where the chaotic input has been understood well enough for you to take tangible steps-whether that’s through word choice, decisions, or physical actions. Action as Resolution: The cascade of decisions allows your various cognitive modules to coordinate and respond in a concerted effort, resulting in action. The "freeze" is like a momentary consolidation of insights before moving into the realm of action, where decisions are solidified into concrete behaviors. 5. Piecewise Adjustments and Fluid Reassessment Purpose: Finally, the process moves into a stage of piecewise adjustments, where actions and decisions are re-evaluated based on real-time feedback and evolving internal states. This allows for an ongoing calibration of your faculties and efforts, ensuring that the response to chaos remains effective as circumstances shift. Continual Reassessment: The moving target aspect of this stage is crucial-it reflects the recognition that situations are never static, and that flexibility is required to continuously adapt and readjust strategies. The ability to reassess, tweak, and modulate responses is what makes your process both robust and resilient in the face of chaotic influences. ---- 5 is a reflection of the fact that the locus of control is fluid, since cognition is multi-module and priority shifts underneath the narrating/communication agents (who are the ones that have the discussions).
the bowtie... the butterfly reinterpreting the same inforrmation that told the caterpillar to crawl and chew on leaves... compelled it to pupate, to morph, to fly and eat a different food source and examples like this reminds me of taking same factors, putting them in a formula, getting the result and resubmitting the result in another formula for a startling different result... all of us 'change on the fly' reinterpreting the same information in different ways... beautiful mind stuff.
Yes. Mathematician Edward Frenkel says that for that very reason equations are more fundamental than solutions, for the equation can help you to see several solutions to the same problem.
Omg after listening to Michael and Jordan's first opening speeches I had a panic attack. SERIOUSLY. And then I I felt really weird it brought forth a change in me. Something strange to my whole nature when I heard those. The implications everything that they said is really frightening for me. you helped me breakthrough some, thanks to everything involved
I'm good I looked at another Michael and it shook me. I have to explain first. I think that really intelligent people have a code that they talk in. And during this I think somehow it just unlocked something in me I don't know what it was. But those two videos out of the thousands of watched trying to learn stuff something different happened in them. How are you doing yourself? I hope you are well! And my bed if I don't talk that well I feel like I've been autistic. A lot of people tell me they think I'm on the Spectrum. I think that's a very good compliment.
Re collaboration, you can collaborate with your higher/greater self (a hyperobject) and when you dance it takes zero effort... because the dance dances you.
Hi! I am hoping someone can jog my memory. I was watching a podcast on "the meaning code" a montth or ao ago. I believe that the host ,Karen mentioned done aome woek wirh a therapist, and towards the end , felt a nolt of energy surge theiugh her body. I rhought rhis would be wirh . Michael Levin/Jordan hall but maybe not . Thought Ithis would be easy to find but have looked at transcripts etc to no avail. Anyone who can point this out i will find a way😢 way to buy u a drink. Thanks!!!!
51:10 what an amazing conversation! This made me think why women go for the "Mysterious guy" 😂 He's hard to understand and thus hard to hack by outside elements that may threaten the emergent future "family" XD
Yes. This section is exactly why I feel that free exchange based on each one’s enlightened self-interest protects us from greed. A longer conversation, for sure. Maybe we can talk about this when we get together.
Surprised to hear only two types of collective intelligence that came after tribes around 15:00. Would have assumed their are many, of greater and lesser degrees of effectiveness. Another one that comes to mind is a religion of the scale of something like Christianity or Judaism which forms some sort of coordinating mechanism for thousands of not millions of people. Cathedrals get built not exactly by bureaucracy or markets, but by devotion to something that is not exactly tribal afaict?
I don’t believe in ghosts or souls but maybe the sperms and and ova have some sort of aura that’s possibly connected to the quantum field and hence give the cells a push to form in the ways that they’re supposed to! But knowing what the experiments have proved , makes my hypothesis just another easy way out .
Jordan, I'm guessing that you see the obvious which is that Jesus was pointing at Christ as the Hyperobject that co-ordinates multiplicity into unity. The asymptotic end of unity. "My yoke is easy, my burden is light."
@@WhiteStoneName You are a young version of me. As a Watcher, I am fond of you and your content. Not all chat and comments and YT are watched by me, though there is One who does. Embodiment / Incarnation riffing is what attracted both our attentions. But as per Jacob, men and women aren't exactly the same. In dharmic terms we are. The incarnation of Jesus is one thing, that of his mother Mary quite another.
12:53 one strikes me as right brain centric (tribal model), one strikes me as left brain centric (bureaucratic model) and the third is emergent- the objective collective subjective emergence of markets and prices
What a beautiful interview. I feel like what Mike is helping a lot of us realize is that "there is no bottom" to Life: it's cognitive light cones all the way down.
Holodeck 😂
Finally someone else talking about Boyd. The OODA loop comes from the context of survival (developed by a guy whose formal education was mostly in engineering, but also delved into physics and Chinese philosophy and military history) and that was abstracted into strategy theory, but it’s also a kind of theory of consciousness in its fullest conception. Most military teachers of maneuver warfare are unaware of this framing. I’ve been wanting to connect this language with TLC language for a long time. I think this is part of why I feel like I connect well to Jordan’s approach and way of speaking.
Karen this is so wonderful. Thank you for this relational pairing. I’m so glad I got to see you face to face last weekend.
Two titans of meta systematic thinking. ❤🙏Thankyou boyz
Listened a second time….unlocked a trove of tangential thoughts
Thanks. Beautiful propositional dialogue-ending with poetries fundamentals
Oh. I'm so excited for this conversation!!! ❤
Killing it as always Karen🙌🙌
So many interesting little sprouts from this conversation! 27:20 Memory Anonymization as cognitive glue - What came up for me here is the concept of theurgic 'revelations' in the imaginal space. Co-created content from interaction with archetypes, intelligibilities, deities, etc. etc.
My favorite person outside of my family got a shout out on Stephen Colbert.
Stay amazing Mr. Levin, Insha'Allah are going to get the noble prize, and your associates.
Great way to start a Thursday
35:25 hold up someone needs to ask Michael about the "other ways", and what his facial expression implied. It's fine that it didn't get asked here because the rest of the conversation was also super interesting. That story/conversation among neurons Michael shared was so good. It was really cool to see these two combined together in this way.
I hope you win an award. Reporting on material conditions and capital cuts through all the PR. (You should get local rappers to design a channel 5 dialectical materialism shirt "two things can be true" or maybe just short hand" two things")
Dr.Levin, your research is of the highest importance for science and humanity, it unlocks so many cross-relationships between the biophysics of information and physics in general.
I am rooting for you to succeed, the applications of your findings, if proven correct, will impact medecine, computing and physics for ever.
Having an accelerated (both mind and heart) feeling as the conversation revs up. Wonderful!
12:55 Jordan’s three embodiments:
1) Human indigenous group - the baseline (sports, limits of scale)
Forking event
2) bureaucracies - institutional
Forms (literacy? Propositional mediums?) scales more easily. Asymptotic limiting factors (technological Babel)
3) markets - scale arbitrarily (or in ways that are unable to be traced?) nothing is arbitrary, it’s just unnamed or inarticulable.
He then says these arose in an evolution of conscious spiral of eras.
Thank you Jordan, Mike, and Karen, really enjoyed the conversation, peace
Hardly distorted, but slowing the speed to 75% helps me better assimilate Michael and Jordan’s presented ideas
LOL. I was gonna make that suggestion in the description.
I took it ✌🏼🙏🏼
22:50 Rupert Sheldrake morphic fields.
For me, it's the way we all see things in at least slightly different ways. It's the variation in engagement of all of these different points of reality. How can we not appreciate the differences in others when differences are infinite, even with those closest to us?
OODA loops, delightful, another fascinating conversation Karen 🎁 thank you
Very nice conversation, it ties in many things I have been thinking about recently.
it seems less about maximally scaling up one's cognitive light cone and more about developing a life path that harmonizes internal and external reality, culminating in the entrainment of a hyperobject
@@LukePluto I totally get the part about harmonizing, internal and external reality, but what do you mean by the entrainment of a hyper object?
@@TheMeaningCode Using hyperobject to mean a dynamical system that is beyond the collective human ability to understand or control and entrainment to mean a coupled dynamical system, or generally, the bidirectional conforming of two state/representation spaces.
I think psychologically this manifests in things like archetypal daimons or synchronicity
Without even watching the full vid yet I'm compelled to say that I'm with Kastrup in that Levin just might be one of the most important people alive today. Not to marginalize any of the work done by other experts in his or different fields or anything but, I'm not really even into biology generally speaking yet virtually all of the things he's been working on blow my mind on many levels.
I was talking to the robot and ended up sharing OODA loop inadvertently while discussing the way to confront Chaos as a generalized integration of new information. The Observe step was moved to second (so it became Act Observe Orient Decide), and the act step was a homeostatic adversarial reaction to the introduction of chaos. Practically speaking, without action, a structure doesn't exist. I think it's the missing piece in the military version of the concept, and the reason they bias toward observe orient decide before action is an institutional bias. Likely, at different layers of analysis, the OODA loops is like singing in rounds. Act^1->Act^2Observe^1->Act^3Observe^2Orient^1->Act^4Observe^3Orient^2Decide^1. The observe step is the first-degree actions precipitated by whatever the initiator is, and decision is the cutoff point where the network freezes before conducting the next action--or at any rate, the inputs that decide the action are set and not alterable.
The process I discussed (as summarized by the robot) was:
1. Adversarial Reaction Rooted in Self
Purpose: This initial reaction is grounded in self-preservation, setting up the domain of chaos and framing it as either a threat or a non-threatening unknown. By immediately constraining inputs to maintain structure and homeostasis, your mind creates a defensive space where chaos can be evaluated from a secure standpoint.
Constrained Focus: By limiting the inputs in the face of potential danger, you're ensuring that unnecessary or overwhelming information doesn’t interfere with the more essential task of survival or balance. This step is critical in triaging potential threats, allowing you to prioritize what matters most in the moment.
2. Effort and Activation Energy
Purpose: After identifying the domain of the chaotic phenomenon, your brain measures the effort and energy required to engage with it. At this point, the emotional register-whether anger, fear, joy, or humility-signals the level of friction or resistance that the chaos poses to your existing structures.
Energy Investment: The decision to integrate or dispense with chaos likely hinges on this measure. The emotional energy serves as both a guidepost and an indicator for how much focus and cognitive effort will be spent on making sense of the chaos. This process resembles triage, determining which stimuli deserve deeper attention and which can be dismissed or absorbed with minimal effort.
3. Mobility and Perspective Shift
Purpose: Once the degree of activation energy is measured, you then explore mobility by comparing options and shifting perspectives. This is where the process of evaluative comparison takes place: weighing potential outcomes, assessing relative values, and figuring out what possibilities are available for engagement with the chaotic input.
Flexible Adaptation: Your ability to shift perspectives at this stage gives you the flexibility to adapt to new information and potential paths. By evaluating different options, you are actively engaging in a fluid assessment that allows you to pivot depending on how chaos unfolds.
4. Temporary Freeze and Cascade of Actions
Purpose: A temporary freeze follows, during which further evaluation pauses, and the chaotic input is converted into decisions and actions. This stage reflects a critical moment of synthesis, where the chaotic input has been understood well enough for you to take tangible steps-whether that’s through word choice, decisions, or physical actions.
Action as Resolution: The cascade of decisions allows your various cognitive modules to coordinate and respond in a concerted effort, resulting in action. The "freeze" is like a momentary consolidation of insights before moving into the realm of action, where decisions are solidified into concrete behaviors.
5. Piecewise Adjustments and Fluid Reassessment
Purpose: Finally, the process moves into a stage of piecewise adjustments, where actions and decisions are re-evaluated based on real-time feedback and evolving internal states. This allows for an ongoing calibration of your faculties and efforts, ensuring that the response to chaos remains effective as circumstances shift.
Continual Reassessment: The moving target aspect of this stage is crucial-it reflects the recognition that situations are never static, and that flexibility is required to continuously adapt and readjust strategies. The ability to reassess, tweak, and modulate responses is what makes your process both robust and resilient in the face of chaotic influences.
----
5 is a reflection of the fact that the locus of control is fluid, since cognition is multi-module and priority shifts underneath the narrating/communication agents (who are the ones that have the discussions).
@@cosmicmuffet1053 How much of this text is your and how much the robot’s?
the bowtie... the butterfly reinterpreting the same inforrmation that told the caterpillar to crawl and chew on leaves... compelled it to pupate, to morph, to fly and eat a different food source and examples like this reminds me of taking same factors, putting them in a formula, getting the result and resubmitting the result in another formula for a startling different result... all of us 'change on the fly' reinterpreting the same information in different ways... beautiful mind stuff.
Yes. Mathematician Edward Frenkel says that for that very reason equations are more fundamental than solutions, for the equation can help you to see several solutions to the same problem.
Omg after listening to Michael and Jordan's first opening speeches I had a panic attack. SERIOUSLY. And then I I felt really weird it brought forth a change in me. Something strange to my whole nature when I heard those. The implications everything that they said is really frightening for me. you helped me breakthrough some, thanks to everything involved
@@darrellblackmon50 How are you doing now?
I'm good I looked at another Michael and it shook me. I have to explain first. I think that really intelligent people have a code that they talk in. And during this I think somehow it just unlocked something in me I don't know what it was. But those two videos out of the thousands of watched trying to learn stuff something different happened in them. How are you doing yourself? I hope you are well! And my bed if I don't talk that well I feel like I've been autistic. A lot of people tell me they think I'm on the Spectrum. I think that's a very good compliment.
@@darrellblackmon50 Certainly opens a space for deep insight.
@@TheMeaningCode Thank you again, I hope you get through to a lot more people.
Wow nice pairing
Re collaboration, you can collaborate with your higher/greater self (a hyperobject) and when you dance it takes zero effort... because the dance dances you.
Check Thailand du Chardin, with the NOOSFERA concept
Hi! I am hoping someone can jog my memory. I was watching a podcast on "the meaning code" a montth or ao ago. I believe that the host ,Karen mentioned done aome woek wirh a therapist, and towards the end , felt a nolt of energy surge theiugh her body. I rhought rhis would be wirh . Michael Levin/Jordan hall but maybe not . Thought Ithis would be easy to find but have looked at transcripts etc to no avail. Anyone who can point this out i will find a way😢 way to buy u a drink. Thanks!!!!
It’s one of the episodes between Levin and Vervaeke. Not sure which one.
@@tuna6691 maybe Michael Levin and John Vervaeke in Dialogos: Towards an Ontology of Causal Structures
ua-cam.com/video/w1ah94fBtgU/v-deo.html
@@TheMeaningCode you have absolutely found it. I owe a drink, and will buy. I will email today.
51:10 what an amazing conversation! This made me think why women go for the "Mysterious guy" 😂 He's hard to understand and thus hard to hack by outside elements that may threaten the emergent future "family" XD
"Poetry is nearer to vital truth than history."
-Plato
25:30 this is so fascinating
Yes. This section is exactly why I feel that free exchange based on each one’s enlightened self-interest protects us from greed. A longer conversation, for sure. Maybe we can talk about this when we get together.
Karen, hope you had a good time at Northwestuary.
@@williambranch4283 Absolutely amazing! Glory all around.
Surprised to hear only two types of collective intelligence that came after tribes around 15:00. Would have assumed their are many, of greater and lesser degrees of effectiveness. Another one that comes to mind is a religion of the scale of something like Christianity or Judaism which forms some sort of coordinating mechanism for thousands of not millions of people. Cathedrals get built not exactly by bureaucracy or markets, but by devotion to something that is not exactly tribal afaict?
At thirty minutes in a historic moment occurred.
Could you say more?
@@TheMeaningCode
The work of Stephen Coughlin
I don’t believe in ghosts or souls but maybe the sperms and and ova have some sort of aura that’s possibly connected to the quantum field and hence give the cells a push to form in the ways that they’re supposed to! But knowing what the experiments have proved , makes my hypothesis just another easy way out .
Fabulously im-personal and scary.
Jordan,
I'm guessing that you see the obvious which is that Jesus was pointing at Christ as the Hyperobject that co-ordinates multiplicity into unity. The asymptotic end of unity. "My yoke is easy, my burden is light."
honestly -- the 'Hyperobject' section is disappointing...
Theilar de Chardin
A caterpillar metamorphosis is a power transformation of z.
Unintelligible.
Slow it down to 75% and it will make more sense:-)
1:12 “what have you gotten so familiar with that you discovered there’s no bottom.”
Yes! Everything.
The radical implications of the Incarnation™️
@@WhiteStoneName Even one verse of Scripture.
Russian Matryoshka doll. Women are more embodied than men.
@@williambranch4283 ok. Firstly, you are everywhere present, filling all comment threads. Secondly, what? Expand.
@@WhiteStoneName You are a young version of me. As a Watcher, I am fond of you and your content. Not all chat and comments and YT are watched by me, though there is One who does. Embodiment / Incarnation riffing is what attracted both our attentions. But as per Jacob, men and women aren't exactly the same. In dharmic terms we are. The incarnation of Jesus is one thing, that of his mother Mary quite another.
12:53 one strikes me as right brain centric (tribal model), one strikes me as left brain centric (bureaucratic model) and the third is emergent- the objective collective subjective emergence of markets and prices
Bureaucracies are inward out, markets are outward in. Emergent, and then affect our behavior/decisions