Slaughter or Liberation?: A Debate on Russia's Role in the Syrian War & the Fall of Aleppo
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- Опубліковано 19 чер 2024
- democracynow.org - With the aid of Russian airstrikes, Syria has taken near full control of the city of Aleppo in a major defeat for forces hoping to topple Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. Before fighting began in 2012, Aleppo was Syria’s largest city with a population of over 2 million. Some of the first major peaceful protests against Assad’s rule broke out in Aleppo in March 2011. But today the city is in shambles after four years of fighting between Syria and rebel groups. A turning point in the battle of Aleppo occurred in September 2015, when Russia began carrying out airstrikes to aid the Syrian government. Russia described the fall of Aleppo as a victory against terrorists and jihadists. But the United States has decried the Russian-backed offensive. We host a debate between Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch, and Stephen Cohen, professor emeritus of Russian studies and politics at New York University and Princeton University.
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Why doesn't Human Rights Watch want to talk about Saudi Arabia bombing Yemen?
They do.
they don't get funding to do that?
+Aminor Amajor thebest
From their website:
With help from former President Saleh, Houthis, the Zaidi Shia group, took control of the capital and much of the north in late 2014. President Hadi and his cabinet fled to Saudi Arabia in early 2015 and in March, a Saudi Arabia-led coalition launched air strikes against the Houthis. Dozens of the airstrikes appeared to violate the laws of war. Houthi forces laid landmines and used other indiscriminate weapons in unlawful attacks . The UN reported in January 2016 that the conflict had claimed 2,795 civilian lives in 2015.
Kenneth Roth is an Israeli Zionist, so he is desperately trying to overthrow Assad... never mentioning that he is a democratically elected leader who is supported by a huge majority (despite some flaws).
Stephen Cohen nailed it.
Tim Bradley why isn't America bombing Isis columns heading to Palmyra??
Kenneth Roth is an infantile liar.
21:20 Says ROTH, "Institute for the Study of War" the re-named PNAC ! Kenneth Roth is a shill, anyone can look that up and the fact that that particular "THINK tank" is his Go-to is VERY telling .
Talks like crazy about how the force in Aleppo "isn't ISIS". Well, no, it's the Al Nusra front (recently rebranded as something something al Sham). The Al Nusra front, as Roth knows perfectly well, is the official Al Qaeda franchise in Syria. Didn't the Americans used to dislike al Qaeda? Something about a "9/11", this dude called bin Laden, any of that ring a bell Mr. Roth? So full of it.
His narrative is completely illogical. I mean, he says that Russians and Syrians deliberately targeted civilians that were so scared that they didn't leave, preferring to endure the bombing rather than fleeing to government controlled areas where they would risk imprisonment or forced conscription. And yet, as soon as the SAA pushed the militants back in the last days of november literally tens of thousands of civilians fled to government controlled parts of the city where they received medical assistance, food and shelter. Some of them even testified that the miltants were starving them and they were prevented from leaving East Aleppo at gunpoint. There are tens of videos showing people thanking and blessing the Army for saving them.
As icing on the cake - according to Al-Masdar - today around 10.000 civilians and 4.000 militants were evacuated to the Idlib province as per their request. More than 100.000 people have left East Aleppo in the last 15 days or so. That means that the vast majority of the population who fled East Aleppo decided to stay under the jurisdiction of the government rather than flee to militant controlled regions. Why would they do that if they were the target of a systematic mass murder campaign?
Roth even admits that HRW doesn't have personnel on the ground. That HRW employees are safely working from Lebanon and what they know bascially comes from contacts with people in Aleppo. So they have no real way of verifying the informations they are fed. And yet he so arrogantly tells us that there are no doubts about what is happening on the ground. Sure...
Stephen Cohen was much too kind when dealing with that guy.
edit: fixed typos
Additionally, he doesn't mention that there is a US embargo on essential materials(drugs, etc.) on the Syrian government. So the U.S. is ACTUALLY doing what he accuses the Syrian gov't and Russia of: strangling/terrorizing the Syrian people. This should come as no surprise, of course, as the strategy is a constant feature of U.S. state terror.
Leonardo Facchin I agree I also Dr Cohen was much too polite!
Debating 101: If your point starts with an ad hominem attack like "lets get back to reality" it loses all credibility and need not be made. Cohen is clearly much more interested in reality than his opponent.
Human Rights Watch has become an instrument of Washington DC's warmongers, as are the "White Helmets".
cam walker Google Cohen Chomsky debates. there are a few, WONDERFUL discussions between those two, although they are quite old (taken from film).
my thought to when he siad that ,,, its very disconcerting that someone purportedly representing human rights is so disrespectful of those rights when it comes to supposedly protecting those rights for anyone other than the group he selectively chosen to further a partisan ideological agenda that clearly isn;t advocating for equitable treatment for all people wrt to human rights
When Roth (of HRW) started quoting from the 'Institute for the Study of War (ISW), it does much damage to his credibility.
@@allancarter4242 the "instititue for the spreading of waffle" would be more appropriate
we are being lied too again to justify escalation.
Maxim Calixte Elaborate.
Red&Black Flag was
Mr. Stephen Cohen Thank You
Roth is CIA/Mossad dumb a..
omg, you're taking situation updates from White Helmets?! holy crap
signed up for the white helmets feed on my cell phone baby.
The fact that "Democracy Now" have resorted to giving airtime to these head-chopper gofers, and treating them as a "credible source of information"
indicates beyond any question, that "Democracy Now" has been completely INFILTRATED >>> CO-OPTED by THE NEW WORLD ORDER!!!
How many other Alternative News outlets have been ASSIMILATED in the same manner I wonder???
CIA/Mossad. The Smith-Bundt Act makes it Legal for DN etc. to Hasbara lie to the American people.
i have a friend who used to donate to public t v he needs to see this!
God bless you Mr.Cohen
intellact12 intellact12 quicly? Him?
This kind of BIASED 'reporting' is what stopped me from watching democracynow
Stephen Cohen is the voice of sanity - the Syrian people will be grateful to you for telling the truth.
Roth has no credibility. Has taken money from Saudi Arabia and has claimed that Hezbollah killed more people in Gaza than Israel!! Shill for the Sunni war against the Shia. A liar who is now justifying Al-Qaeda in Aleppo
Kenneth Roth cites the Institute for the Study of War as his source on the bombings in Aleppo. Kimberly Kagan is a founder and leader, along with her husband Robert Kagan. Why would he use ISW as a source? ISW is a promoter and propagandist for all things Pentagon. Robert was one on the co-founders of the Project for the New American Century, the "leadership" body for a world dominated by only one power the US of A. Kenneth Ross's use of ISW should qualify him as voice of the US government, which is not an NGO, something that Human Rights Watch pretends, and poorly so, to be.
Those two brothers almost look like twins ! May they rot in hell!!! With their wives , of course!!!
lol, why is she "cookie monster"?
***** Ah yes, I am familiar with the incident. Cookies were not the part of my memory of it but I remember now. Funny.
Excellent comment, thank you.
Stephen Cohen is such a brilliant observer and giving us the much desired skeptical, contrarian position and asking important questions that the established media has largely refused to ask even though it would have been there job to do so.
I agree with Cohen on Russia and the stupidity of the USA to get involved in Syria.
Assad said Syria wouldn't participate in a very big deal pipeline. he said this in 2009. plans to remove him started there. the pipeline he refused is a long time planned one that would put Saudi arabia and America at great advantage into the far future. The SA/US pipeline was also supposed to cut off access to Europe for Russia for their gas and oil. The CIA were in Syria from 2009/10.
I've read the U.S. government had planned to overthrow Assad since way back in 2005-2006, wayyyy before the so-called "Arab Spring". Syria is not a "civil war"; it's a foreign invasion.
@@charrobSix and for good reason. Syria was used as a training camp by Al Qaeda in the 2000s before the Civil war
That white helmet guy is lying. He keeps looking to his right.
Btw the white helmets are actually a military force that are killers.
Please interview Canadian Journalist, Eva Bartlett, on this issue.
Excellent suggesting. Why doesn't Democracy Now interview Eva Bartlett?! She tells the truth!
And Vanessa Beeley , Senator Black of Virginia also just returned.
My sympathies are with all innocent victims of any war.
roth is a flatout liar
I think you should be asking the same question about our American role in the Syrian conflict. look a little deeper than this kind of propaganda to get that side of the story
RIP professor.Cohen
Never trust anyone who says: "we know exactly what's going on"
The guy talking from Aleppo was reading froma script??!
i kinda doubt he was talking from Aleppo at all. kept sending Cohen mind signals to ask the guy just to rotate his camera a tad to show us the carnage. tsk.
And, Democracy Now, could you explain what this story is titled "the fall of Aleppo"? Are you saying liberating the city from Al Qaida is a "fall"? Smh
this HRW person is ridiculous
Democracy Now????? My foot is laughing.
Notice how carefully this news presentation is written, 0.18 “Some of the first major peaceful protests against Assad’s rule broke out in Aleppo in March 2011, but today the city is in shambles after 4 years of fighting between Syria and rebel groups”. Notice how they conflate “major peaceful protestors” and “rebel groups”, never mentioning the terrorist groups that make up most of the Anglo-American mercenaries that are attempting to overthrow Assad. Well done, that should keep the other Oligarchs happy. As for the White Helmets, I believe they have already been discredited as CIA and MI6
funded propaganda machines and Samantha Power is a joke. What’s the problem; couldn’t find another daughter of a Kuwaiti Ambassador to spread lies like in the lead up to Iraq. Have you ever wondered how many “Useful Idiots of Empire” remain that still believe your propaganda. From the comments I read, not many.
At least I thank you for allowing Steven Cohen to present the facts; that must have hurt. It was also interesting to see Human Rights Watch represented even though this entity, like most Orwellian named NGOs (e.g. National Endowment for Democracy) that are used to destabilize Anglo-American targeted nations, is main function is to spread propaganda and introduce bias. Human Rights Watch also has a Wikipedia page dedicated to it called, “Criticism of Human Rights Watch”; it’s worth a read and might give you some insight into the structure of the deception they peddle. Maybe Human Rights Watch can give Assad
some advice on how to cover up war crimes; they have covered up enough for the US. If you “accidentally” bomb a Medecins Sans Frontieres hospital in Afghanistan or "mow the grass" in Palestine, just call it an accident due to the “Fog of War” and like most militant thugs around the planet will let them investigate themselves to achieve justice. That does work so effectively; doesn’t it?
Sorry, what you have referenced and the last sentence were an attempt at sarcasm; I guess the first one failed. Next time I will review more carefully.
Please do not misunderstand me; I agree with you in full. How can Democracy Now ever be taken seriously when Roth is denying ISIS in Aleppo a few days after Representative Tulsi Gabbard Introduces a Bill into Congress to stop the government arming terrorists? Destabilization and propaganda have been the strategies of all Empires throughout history. Like the UN "Responsibility to Protect" and nearly all Anglo-American Imperial NGOs, HRW is just another in an extensive list of tools that the Empire uses to destabilize, overthrow and control independent nations. I have found what I believe to be the facts of Aleppo in the narrative of the Independent Canadian Journalist - Eve Bartlett. If you get a chance, have a look at her press conference at the UN on the 9th of December on UA-cam.
At least 1 guy is speaking the truth
joachim ndahne yes, his name is S. Cohen! Thank you sir!
The war cannot win without people support. Winning side has people support for sure esp for prolong war.USA should had learned that lesson since Vietnam war..
The Fascist Bigot Don't forget about us internet junkies!
Thank you Prof Cohen, for this information....
congrats Stephen Cohen for balance arguments
It doesn't matter to me what anyone says, all I know is people, civilian families, are being murdered and/or displaced from their homes. What is in Syria that is more valuable than these people that can justify these horrific human rights violations. What does Russia getting out of this that can justify its blatant disregard for human life?
you like "the triggering," don't you? well then trigger away, at syrian people's death, at yemeni, houthi deaths, at hundred of thousands killed/raped in several african countries, about ukrainian civilians bombed in their schools, etc. you've got so much triggering to explore, just don't explode ;)
Funny I don't recall Mr. Roth ever condemning Israel's bloodbath in Gaza
TRUTH(Stephen Cohen) EXPLAINING FACTS, FACTS SUPPORTING TRUTH!
I'm glad Mr Cohen pointed out the language change also done by Amy Goodman, who sold out years ago. Now she plays the compassionate liberal and supports US military interventions. The crap from the White Helmets about executions is laughable, and she doesn't call out this bull.
How this man Roth can look into anybody's eyes with those superlies?
I'm fucking sick and tired of being the bad guy and the villain because my government is fucked up As Americans we should feel bad we let our government get like this because if we actually got off our asses we could do things in our government stop stating the obvious educate yourselves get involved we talk about how everyone has rights everyone feels like a victims in the u.s.. apparently we don't know what a victims is till we get outside the us . and see what our govt has done. us being victimized by our own govt isnt enough just because we kept Hillary out which is good isn't enough Trump isn't enough I have a feeling the Trump supporters and us are going to be betrayed by him and we can not turn our back on them because they're Americans we all made mistakes with politics if I'm wrong I'll apologize I have a feeling it's not going to turn out that way
Human rights?! What about the human rights for the Palestinians? What about American committing atrocities in the Iraq war and illegal attack on Libya? And the Saudi atrocities on the Yemen people?
This obviously was posted in response to Eva Bartlett's testimony at the UN, but yet you don't mention that testimony. Very cowardly. And I used to love Amy and DN.
+Andrea Wisner Would you mind explaining why it is cowardly? I'm trying to learn more about this conflict (just watched Bartlett's testimony which was very interesting).
Stephen Cohen speaks common sense. Roth is clearly propagandist.
Did he say there is no isis in syria?
Yaoxing Li He said Aleppo not Syria
iHack3x2 Aleppo is in Syria
I know, but Syria doesn't mean Aleppo, it's like saying there is no Zika virus in Colorado and some guy saying, "Did he say there is no Zika in America?"
Get what I'm saying?
steven cohen is absoutly logical and truthful
Here's the real story of Syria's 'rebel forces': 21stcenturywire.com/2016/12/16/reports-at-least-10-nato-military-officers-captured-by-syrian-special-forces-this-morning-in-east-aleppo-bunker/
Here's one straight from the horse's mouth: www.timesofisrael.com/russia-mossad-other-foreign-agents-killed-in-aleppo-strike/
Stephen Cohen was wrong to dismiss the information of Human Rights Watch as baseless. He knew better.
@19:22 Cohen: "One person's war crime is another person's liberation."
@20:33 Roth: "Let's get back to reality here."
Well done Mr. Roth. I would not have been able to put up with Cohen's sophistry as well as you did.
Cohen is right though, the US for example has perpetrated many war crimes under the guise of liberation. Roth's hand waiving just shows his own ignorance and naivety.
+Patatmetmayo What does that have to do with Roth's point? You're acting like Roth was making excuses for the US when he was just honestly evaluating the reports he had been given on Russia's involvement in the war.
Mr.Cohen spoke the truth and even put "democracy now" on its place. Please bring him back it was a fresh of breath air to listen someone like him.
That old fart is dead.☠️
You can tell when Roth is creating a false narrative... he speeds up, and looks at the floor. Check it out.
All around victory Professor Cohen.
What an odd position of Mr Roth. Mixing arguments going till call the real appalling prison conditions in Syria and stay quiet about the most illegal prison Guantanamo- just for one example
The situation is a huge clusterfuck. The amount of foreign involvement has turned this civil war into a massive proxy conflict. It doesn't help that pretty much all remnants of the "moderate" rebels from the beginning of the war are now replaced with radical jihadists. There should be no excuse for the actions for Assad either as I am sure those who've been paying attention since the beginning know how the government opened fire into protestors against the regime among other repression. His execution of medical personnel and indiscriminate bombing of civilians is also horrific. In order to see the bigger picture I think you need to look at situations like the Syrian Civil War amorally, as to not allow your tears for one thing or another cover up what is really happening although this goes for both Assad and rebel supporters.
So, this debate is basically ‘we know what happened and our next actions are clear’ vs ‘we actually don’t know whats happening and we’re making moves as if we do know’ am I missing anything?
Am I safe to assume that part of Cohen’s allure is the confidence (I would say pompous attitude) in the things he say?
How can there be such differing viewpoints? And it sounds like Cohen really does not disagree that Roth could be correct. He's just a skeptic.
While we hear that the civilians in East Aleppo are trapped, being bombed, and executed, we see video images of large masses of those same civilians walking out of the same area where according to the words we hear they are being trapped, bombed, and executed, fleeing to West Aleppo where the Syrian army is. Speaking of an audio/graphic contradiction. A real cognitive dissonance. Then it comes down to what you want to believe: the words spoken of someone who isn't there, or the cameraman who shot the video evidence.
It is true those people were trapped as human shields, bombed with rockets and grenades, including with chlorine gas, and executed (and many more than 82 of them) by by the terrorists who are now being presented as the victims. Many were raped and beheaded by these "rebels" who are mostly foreign mercenary, jihadi-terrorists. But the MSM won't show that. Only the alternative news sites.
Just search for: "Syria White Helmets: Humanitarians or "Executioners"?"
case was closed a while back: liberation with inevitable civilian casualties, because it's a damned warzone...and what state actor(s) are at fault for that? (hint: it ain't Syria or Russia)
i hate when people point fingers .....and give no solution ....when we all know who started this shit.....and it sure was not the syrian people.....
Prof. Cohen is amazing.
This is hard to watch because while they talk people are being killed. So sad. But, I do really appreciate these two men talking with civility toward one another. I have watched way too much mainstream news in my life!!! This is how you have a conversation.
Goodman, take heed. That paralyzed face you had a while ago was karma for "reporting" like this.
Human Rights Watch has lost even the last shred of credibility and dignity. It's completely shameful. The guy repeats every piece of unsopported and unproved accusations that basically came from pro-militia activists.
Kenneth Roth, member of Council on Foreign Relations. Stephen F. Cohen, member of Council on Foreign Relations.
many of our us presidents should be punished not just Obama.
this is pathetic... i can find 100 who will say that "rebels" are executing anyone who wanna go out from alepo. is that truth then? if that hrw can get some evidence and help people, not target certain side. and finally, from what background are those rebels? professional soldiers and policemen or they was civilians who took arms? and aren't those civilians ones who support and aid those "rebels"? you guys hear about word WAR? you know its meaning?
"Occasionally going into Syria", says it all.
Aah, yes, the mythical “moderate opposition” that included radical jihadists.
Is there anyway to fight an urban war without civilians being harmed? Certainly, there are ways to prevent it but when you have families living with fighters you have a big problem. I don't understand this idea of mixing fighters and families.
Love Stephen Cohen!!!! The other guy sounds like more American propaganda!!!
At least you are providing two viewpoints now but your stance on the role of the rebels has been woefully slanted. I'm disappointed in your reporting on this topic, Amy.
to him saying bombin of institutions are being undertaken, he forgets to mention that terrorists and rebels (legitimate or illegitimate) dont follow any rules of warfare, using those institutions as bases and to attack from, ive seen this many times in the middle east, but what happens most often is that both sides break rules
Once SAA started to attack rebels and al qaeda in e. Aleppo, the rebels and the terrorists were morally and legally obligated to let all civilians go who wanted to leave e. Aleppo and had to have sent all children and their mothers to safe regions.
So, the blood is on their hands for such a criminal act.
But the West also has blood of civilians on its hands for not screaming at the terrorists for not forcing civilians to leave e.aleppo.
Democracy Now, we all know you are a Gate-Keeper.
wow I didn't know Human Rights Watch was so biased. Now I can't believe their reports any more
one side wants to blame Russia; the other wants to blame the US. This is exactly what Mario and Luigi want.
Thumps up for Dr Cohen!
Now, a year since this interview was published, Aleppo is liberated from ISIS and so is most of Syria. Syrian people are returning back to their homes and celebrating. Dear Kenneth, please post a message here accepting how wrong or how dishonest you were and apologize to all of us for trying to mislead us and spreading fake news. Thank you.
Moderate anti-Assad terrorists should get our full support as a tool of democracy.
It's so nice to see a heated intellectual debate where the people aren't morons yelling over each other like on shitty cable news outlets
why when the second debater Stephen F. Cohen talks we see traumatic images full screen and his face small and when the second debaer speaks we see his face full screen?
As we listen to the news emmanating from Mariupol today 3/29 2022.
There were numerous reports that terrorists in Eastern Aleppo hospitals would not let locals use them and used them to treat wounded fighters exclusively. Why would human right watch defends them so rigorously
Reports from who?
Aleppo never rose against Assad. Nor has it ever been completely controlled by anti-Assad forces.
It was invaded by ISIS forces three years ago. Those forces 'morphed' into a more US-friendly version called 'Al Nusra'. Those fighters have been holding their parts of the city against the other citizens of Aleppo who refused to join their 'Islamic revolution'.
No sensible America anti-terrorist would allow a terrorist to walk away to fight another day - unless there was a prisoner swap involved. Yesterday's evacuation stopped because the rebels were expected to reciprocate by evacuating two Shiite villages they have been besieging.
Syrian human rights watch is based in England they take their news from the social media posts of people still in Aleppo - social media, probably the ONLY 'public utility' still operating in eastern Aleppo. The HRW in America takes it's 'news' from a barbershop in southern England - not from Aleppo.
Young men in Aleppo indeed have a 'hobson's choice'. Fight for the 'rebels' or face having to fight for Assad. But they aren't unique - the same situation has applied to billions of people since President Bush uttered the words "You're with us, or you're with the terrorists."
Since then we've, 'legitimately' killed millions of them and imprisoned even more. We're still doing that yo-day. Yesterday, we announced, with pride, that, at Mosul, we have killed 50 000 ISIS fighters without inferring a single war crime.
Russia apparently isn't afforded that 'right'.
It's Stephen's Cohen clear win in the discussion. Shame on you, Kenneth Roth from Human Rights Watch!
What about the corridors?. Why didn't they use corridors?.
The path to a peaceful Syria doesn't include ISIS, Al Nusra or Assad. Hence why a path to a peaceful Syria doesn't exist.
Bravo Professor Stephen Cohen, you slammed hypocrisy of Amy and Roth with simple truth... Learn a lesson Mrs. Goodman, because many of us relay on you seeking for information we can trust every day and in regard of Russia and the war in Syria, you are failing miserably
Is there another part to this interview?
Silver lining, F.B. It's a very good (voluntarily given) documentation of what a nasty piece of work K.R. is.
***** Which next clip? I want to see it.
Where Cohen actually answers a question? No.
Go to DemocracyNow.org and check on the Dec. 14 program in their archives - you can watch the entire program.
The government forces secured 95% of Aleppo, the rest 5% probably where all the hospitals schools are. They also mentioned there are "hundreds of thousands"civilian, that make that 5% of Aleppo the most populated area in the world.
The Syrian Gov. Doesn't say that , western Media spreads that absurdity of hundreds of thousand in small area remaining. What a pile of BS.
Roth and Cohen says it all. Democracy now is sinking so low.
The title is made under the influence of the russian propaganda. Nobody with a clear mind would say, that Russia and it's mercenaries (SAA) and alies LIBERATED eastern Aleppo. That's an absolutely weird title.
Kenneth Roth you definitely not defending human rights your just accusing others based on false information. i believe you should let someone else to do dthe job
Fantastic rebuttal to the hysterical accusations by the regime change propagandists. My utmost respect for Mr. Cohen.
There are question marks around the white helmets now, some say they're totally discredited.
kenneth roth be real ,,,, white helmet is not the real information ...
Thank you Dr Cohen for being open and honest
the human rights watch guy speaks with such certainty, stating everything as if it is fact, even after saying their sources are not actually in Aleppo, only in communication with 'people in Aleppo'. He doesn't say who those people are. How can someone be so sure they are right in such a complicated situation with so many conflicting accounts?
LIBERATION
Ms Goodman, you should be ashamed of yourself.
It's neither slaughter nor fall. It's called the Liberation of Aleppo.
Hi mr. Roth how about Yemen children and women ?
I am a bit surprised the Democracy Now is pimping the MSM positions on the politics, recent history and propaganda/rhetoric of our US politics. Amy and Company always seemed too wise to make assumptions from the talking points of surface MSM talking points but I feel they are actually making this mistake.