"Mastery is an endless quest, but we can help you find proficiency" friggin love it. I've been shooting for years and I'm self taught. I've had to force myself out of bad habits. I'm new to competitive shooting but I don't really use my sights all that much. I'm much more concerned with other fundamentals.
Something to consider about bad habits are, do you have one or two that are working for you? Maybe just a little refinement is only needed to get you where you want to be..just my thoughts.
I'm a R.O at my range and have been down this exact thought path. New shooters will obsess over a perfect sight picture and then jerk the trigger or have a bad grip or flinch the shot etc etc, and it's because it's the only thing they can visualise and the easiest thing to initially get to grips with when being taught. Someone can look like they have a good grip because they're copying what others are doing but they don't understand the mechanics around it to make it effective for them. Developing a good grip and trigger pull takes time and practice, a good sight picture is easy. I tell people not to concentrate on the sights, get an acceptable sight picture, sure, but a marginal sight picture with good fundamentals will beat a perfect sight picture with bad fundamentals any day. The sights are not why people hit waaay low and left but they reckon if they can concentrate that bit harder on the sights the shot will magically hit the center.
I got a question about grip since your a R.O. If you dont mind answering. Is grip more about trying to squeeze my palms towards each other on both sides of the pistol grip and less of using my left hand thumb as a gas pedal against the side of the pistol frame? Hope this makes sense.
"The sights are not why people hit waaay low and left but they reckon if they can concentrate that bit harder on the sights the shot will magically hit the center." I feel people think like this because everyone keeps repeating front "sight focus." So logically one might think "I missed my shot because I didn't focus enough on the front sight." For me I feel focusing too much on the front sights makes me more shaky and makes me less accurate. I'll try this mindset next time I go to the range, but I know I need a lot of work on my grip, my hands feel swollen and painful after going to the range and my grip gets loose after almost every shot.
Wilson Combat has a Mas Ayoob video on YT where he goes over the different ways to grip a gun. He has been around for a long time, is calm, and explains and demonstrates along the way better than I can explain in words. Watch that video. Gripping a small j-frame vs a large revolver vs a micro semiauto or a service size semiauto may vary on several factors, mainly hand size. I have used at one time or another all the various ways to grip a gun over five decades. I have chosen my method based on my small hands and my particular firearm and what has given me repeatable success draw after draw and thousands upon thousands of rounds of practice. Same for stance.
@@Austin_180 I use more of a push pull technique. Pulling toward my body with my support hand and pushing with my hand holding the pistol. I haven’t really heard of squeezing the palms together. How much force you use depends. Too much force and you will start shaking, too little and the gun moves as you pull the trigger. You can play with it a little bit and find a happy medium. The push pull technique also helps with recoil control to get you back on target faster. I have heard several professional shooters say they grip it as hard as they can and with practice you will be able to increase the force you can apply and still be rock solid. This technique has worked really well with my students so give it a try and let me know how it works for you.
@@Austin_180 I'll start by saying I have no teaching qualifications, the R.Os job is primarily to ensure safety on the range. grip is one of those things that seems straightforward but there's a huge amount of tiny differences that can make a difference. Recommend the humble marksman deep dive on the thumbs forward grip, he's also got a separate excellent video on why you shoot low and left with a Glock. warrior poet has a good explanation with battle gnome on the two schools of thought on grip. Eric graufell, multiple IPSC world champ has explained he uses body mechanics more than brute force grip strength to control recoil but that's a different issue than the grip causing inaccurate shots. I also share Rob leathams view that when you start shooting at all quickly you ARE going to slap/jerk the trigger. The key is having a good enough grip for the jerking to make a minimal difference on the shot. Like with a lot of things there are many ways to skin a cat, general principles apply but the exact method will vary person to person. In general, strong front to back pressure on the strong hand combined with a strong support hand squeeze with elbows rotated out and both hands torqued inwards as if trying to touch both thumbs together is a good place to start. I spent a good few years changing my grip often and finding what works. Its unfortunately one of those things that for me anyway I can only half teach, the rest is up to the shooter. Good luck
Damn how close are these guys shooting?? I do like the sights printed on transparencies. That's what I need to print for my wife and kids for teaching. At less that at 7 yards what are sights?? I like Rob Pincus' concept of "Balance of Speed and Precision". For beginners, learn to shoot at 15 yds, get good by shooting at 25 and then get fast by shooting at 7. In real life, learn the Balance of Speed and Precision.
That's the key. If we're inside 10y (probably the majority of self-defense & certainly most training) this holds true. It's also a contributing factor why most people can't hit the target *stand* beyond 15y.
@@AOMartialArts in that case... lodge your barrel in between two ribs and gently squeeze off a round. They also talk about bad grip and shooting low left. So we are shooting a
When we trained with Tim Herron in 2019 his practice of driving the gun with the rear sight started us down the path of rethinking how we were using and teaching sights. If you never stop learning you never stop improving.
As an O.D. this introduction of vision and perception skills is sound. The concept of a window is frequently utilized in vision therapy both for regaining function and honing one’s abilities in a sports context.
I can shoot very accurately by NOT focusing on my sights, by focusing on my target and keeping the sights blurry so I can vaguely see that the sights are aligned, but very clearly see where my sights are indexed.
My wife and I are fairly new to shooting. We are seniors and have been wanting to train ourselves for our protection. We have taken classes and go to the range at least monthly. I have gotten better but the wife has gotten crazy good. The problem has been that first shot or two in an emergency situation. We came up with a drill where you grab the gun off the table, drawing from a holster is not allowed, and take two shots in 3 seconds. Both of us have real problems with making effective shots in that time frame. This concept your trainers brought opened our eyes! We will be adding these ideas to our training. Thanks for the great video. Keep up the good work!
I also practice a similar emergency 2-round quick succession scenario at the range, usually with the target around 7 to 10 yards. For that distance, what I've found that has helped me the most to do that acceptably is just drawing over and over at home (no live ammo) to gain muscle memory of bringing the firearm to eye level and having the gun "instinctively" aimed at my target. I'm not worried about aligning or evein viewing the front OR rear sight. I just want to bring it up and hit mass quickly. What these guys are saying is somewhat similar...basically you don't need perfect aim, you just gotta have good enough aim to hit mass.
@@paulcallaway71 Yes, and the key point in this video is that the alignment of the rear sight is a really good first indicator. The rest (such as the view of the front sight in the rear sight) is finer tuning. Actually the main point of the video is that the grip is the main thing that determines accuracy, for very many reasons.
When I practice shooting for defensive combat. I use one hand ( right or wrong ) to put the weapon on target and my other hand to work the trigger and offer very little support. My drill has always been 3 shots when I pull the trigger so if I'm going to shoot defensively my target gets three rounds consecutively. One problem I have with instructors is that they want you to shoot at a distance of 5 to 10 yards. I believe that's impractical unless someone is training to shoot across a parking lot. If Im just plinking and having some fun I'll shoot 25 or 50 yards, but in a real domestic combat situation the distance is going to be 3 yards or less. That's under ten feet. That's the distance I believe people should be shooting at to simulate the true distance in a self defense situation, and it could be as little as 3 or 4 feet. At those distances you don't need sights. I say forget about eye level sighting unless you want to shoot targets. Try not to make things hard for yourself. Taking 2 shots in 3 seconds is a long time unless it's just target shooting. I practice groups of 3 shots, so it's bam, bam, bam, and then a brief pause to see my grouping, and make any adjustments, and then continue. Be wary of instructors saying things like I've been a police officer for 20 years, and I was in the military. That doesn't mean anything to me. If you're thinking home protection. Always have a plan. If you don't have a plan you're going to be part of someone else's plan. One last thing. Don't make the mistake of trying to find one gun thats going to work for both of you, because that doesn't exist. You're going to have something that suites you best and she'll have something that works best for her. Anyway, keep your gun well lubricated and play safe.
It sounds to me literally TIM HERRONS teaching. Tim was a race car driver and uses the window analogy. He moves into a sight movie, not a sight picture. When he moves to distance, he teaches anchoring the rear sight. Imo a huge diservice to Tim by stealing this with limited credit.
This is interesting. When I switched from irons to a red dot one issue I had was I was waiting a long time for the red dot to settle perfectly in the window. I realized that this was costing me speed on targets where I could still get an acceptable hit even with the red dot not nearly as centered in that window as I might have thought. Basically I needed to learn what I “needed to see”. It was sort of an odd situation as I had spent time doing reflexive shooting courses based on the teachings of people like Bob Taubert where we shot with the sights entirely removed from the pistol and still got very effective hits up close by focusing on our grips and body positioning. Over time I had forgotten those lessons. What I found even more interesting is now when I go back to shoot irons I find I apply the same practices, that of using my rear sight as a window, like described here, and as long as I get the front sight in that window I know I can press the shot (like they cover here the size of the target zone matters). This ended up improving my iron sight shooting, too.
I had a very similar experience when I switched to red dots. My standard of "acceptable sight picture" got much higher because I was now able to refine it much more than I was with irons, and at close range, it was slowing me down. At longer ranges, where I would have to refine my sight picture regardless of the dot or irons, the dot was faster and more accurate. I love shooting both but it is something than needs to be considered when switching--many think a dot will make everything better without the need to train on the new hardware.
@@locomike102 valuable insight from you and Zero. I just got a Holosun 507K green dot for my P365X that I'm going to zero and shoot for the first time this weekend. I feel fairly proficient with irons but I think the dot will take some getting used to.
@@PerceptionVsReality333 me eventually getting better with the dot and seeing that doing so also improved my shooting with irons is why you choose to stick with irons?
I was a cop for 20 years, and a firearms instructor for many years. I was also a Marine with 10 years of service. In 30 overall years of fireams and marksmanship training; prior to watching this video, I NEVER, not once, ever heard anyone say, "see what you need to see". That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, simply because it means absolutely nothing! I'm glad I never had to hear that stooopid phrase, and thus never had to throat punch anyone at the range!
It’s almost as bad as “it is what it is” 🙄but the problem I see newbies doing is closing one eye, and that’s when I say ‘your trying to put the circle in the square”… and people understand what I’m saying which is open both eyes when you’re pulling the trigger dammit! …but see what you need to see? Sounds like an 80s song or something ..it’s as dumb as when Daffy duck tryed to hide under the bed during a housefire 😂
I bought a red dot before I even owned my first firearm, so I started on a HS509T. ...But going back & learning on iron sights is a fun challenge at the range.
Saw this technique about a year ago on the Humble Marksman - "How to use Iron Sights efficiently | Tim Herron Interview". If you watch this video, then you need to follow up with that video and get the intel straight from the horse's mouth. You will be glad you did! With that said this video provides a lot more detail in regards to defensive shooting. I also agree that grip is often the primary reason for failing to hit the target.
Tim's the man. He has his own channel, "Tim Herron Shooting." It's a fantastic resource for anyone who wants to get better. You'll be getting information from a bonafide USPSA Grandmaster for free. The only thing you need is discipline and time.
These gentlemen seem like an excellent teaching team. They compliment each other nicely. And the way they take over explaining without stepping on eachothers toes is impressive IMHO
One thing that helped me improve with irons was actually becoming adept with a dot. My carry gun I have an optic mounted and my nightstand gun (which previously had an optic) I returned to irons. Having to relearn irons after a long time only using dots, I've found I'm way faster and more accurate shooting it at regular handgun distances with a target focus, like I had a dot on it, than focusing on the front sight. Plus, when I focus on front sight, my target splits which can make it hard to tell what I'm shooting at. At longer distances I'm sure I'd need to focus on the front sight more.
It all depends on their level of experience and training. I found this rear sight mentality when I started shooting competition and was forced to speed up target acquisition. Standing and shooting a piece of paper is a lot different than moving and shooting multiple targets on a timer...and in sure actually using your weapon in the line of duty is a whole other level of pressure. Little tidbits like this that may seem obvious to some are not so apparent to others and can really flip on a light switch in one's mind.
Hold over from the days of bullseye shooting. Most Pistol instructors from years gone by were competitors from NRA target matches. Jeff Cooper was one of pioneers of teaching combat pistol shooting.
"I don't understand... trying to get a perfect sight picture..."? People are typically trained to concentrate on hitting a small bullseye, which is excessively time-consuming and unnecessary for *defensive* shooting.
It's a shame they won't sell me ammo. I went though a lot to be licensed to buy it online in California. While we fight for everyone's rights from behind enemy lines. We'll remember who supported us and who crapped on us, and Lucky Gunner are the crappers.
It never ceases to amaze me how chubby tactical types can wax on for hours convoluting shooting principals that are so frigging basic. These are the same guys who in decades past preached that you absolutely, positively MUST use the Weaver stance otherwise, you're not shooting properly. They're not unlike toothpaste companies who continuously re-invent their product despite no real need to do so, yet they have to stay relevant by generating interest in what they're selling.
This is fine at "combat" distances, but for qualifying at 10 yards or more, you need deliberate sight alignment and to focus on the front sight. This along with trigger control; no jerking, flinching, or anticipating. Practice, practice, practice.✌🏽
If people feel like they need to work on these close-range aiming techniques, is there any good reason they shouldn't just get an airsoft version of their gun of choice and practice with that? Obviously the recoil isn't the same and the trigger feel won't be identical, but for working on presenting the gun with a good, consistently-repeatable grip, while getting adequately on-target for a close-range shot, I would think one of the gas blowback airsoft pistols would be a great tool. The "accuracy" and projectile speed differences aren't super relevant at these kinds of extreme close ranges. You'll be able to shoot a lot, try different things, and find out quickly what works!
Don't use firearms to teach people how to shoot. That's like giving a kid a paint brush to teach them how to draw or write. It just makes the learning curve steeper by forcing the student to use the least forgiving highest level tools off the bat. It's stupid. Give someone a BB gun without adjustable sights. Then teach them to reliably hit soda cans at 5 to 6 different distances. Once they get good at that, set out a few plastic bottle caps at various ranges and have them snap those. If they try equal height equal light they will suck. If they start to experiment with offsetting the front sight they will succeed. Easy, simple. And if you want to teach a smooth trigger pull, get a long barreled rubber band gun and load up the heaviest rubber bands you can find.
I fail to see how this concept is more easily understood/conceptualized than either "punching the front sight at the threat" (aka focus on the front sight only) or "point shooting" (pointing your finger at the threat and ignoring the sights altogether) both of which are valid and easily teachable "close range" techniques. Pretty much any technique that involves a good draw and grip, including this "rear sight" technique should work at close range (10 yards and less).
Jeff Cooper said: the sights are to check your alignment with the target. At typical self defence distances you don't need the sights if you get the rest right.
I see what's being said. As a person with a bit of anatomical understanding, I would rather be as precise as possible with my aim. However, as a person with a bit of physiological understanding, I must realize that if I am considering the horrific need to shoot an attacker in order to survive, I will be facing a tidal wave of adrenaline and extreme time pressure. This video explains some geometric tolerances.
I trained with Tim Herron in 2018 and this sounds a lot like the conversation and block of instruction that he gave during that class. He was a performance driving instructor, it’s easy to see how he came to correlating the concepts of performance driving and shooting as it pertains to vision. Kind of shitty that he was given so little due credit and was glossed over, and that you’re leading folks to believe this was your original idea/concept…
Fact: You don't need sights on a gun for engagements within 15 feet. And with enough practice you can hit a man size target at that same distance with your eyes closed/in the dark by simply getting muscle memory and audio orientation. Having said all of that I do have all of my guns with either red dots or night sights for time or distance allowing shots.
Theoretically the barrel can be pointing low and still have the rear sight on the target. One still needs a reference point from the front of the barrel. And if they sell this, IMO I would never take a class from these guys. Again only my opinion.
It takes TIME to use the sights on a handgun. In a self-defense situation, you do NOT have the time, the target is moving, and, if you have to aim very accurately, you are far enough away from the threat to retreat. Therefore training in using the sights is an esoteric endeavor unless you are in organized warfare and you are trying to use a handgun in place of a rifle.
Front sight focus with extra steps. The only way to disagree is to deliberately misinterpret front sight focus. Put the front sight over the target. If the target is larger than the front sight and it's relatively boxed by the rear sight, send it. If the target is the size of the front sight and smaller, tighten that shit up. New spin on what people should be doing.
That's actually how I use irons because I was thought to shoot by my dad who was raised in an army home and served himself, but he never told me which sight to focus in
Chris, with much respect to you and these guys I would suggest the viewer find Rob Lathem , his philosophy, or I should say, approach shooting is dramatically better in every way , and I’m sure these guys would agree. Thanks
Can't agree more, but if I may, I will add that in my home defense class, I usually taught my students your weapon lights/laser/trigger finger is pointing where your bullet will most likely go. You won't have time to find your sight at all not even bringing up your normal firing height. We also teach students to use low rise ready for direct point and shoot, without aiming at all, in a classic 21 feet scenario. Weapon light in home defense is sometimes more important than tritium and red dot sights.
Finally! Someone that makes sense about using the rear sight as your focal point first. I’ve done that since I started shooting and it works. I’ve heard all the “tacticool” kids say “hard front sight focus” crap, and it just doesn’t makes sense to me and it doesn’t work for me. Even though I used blacked out rear sights, the notch is the window that I look through.
Very nicely explained. I was a world class skeet shooter and taught and coached many people so I know the skills I need to teach. Now that I shoot pistol almost exclusively this is an excellent way to teach how to shoot. The most important thing with a handgun is hand control and bringing your gun back to target after each shot. If you want an excellent visual aid, shoot a gun with a laser. It’s shocking how much your hand moves without recoil and more shock with recoil.
Well, that's a different interpretation of what they call a soup kitchen. Thanks for this, Chris! I would have made it to TacCon this year but I think Tim and Ash borrowed my car because I can't find it.
I sort of understand what he's saying. There are distances ( particularly in the realm of self defense ) where you can get good hits on target faster without seeing your sights at all. Also known as point shooting. You're still seeing what you need to see... because you're still getting combat effective hits.
I have 10 years of experience handling firearms, I find this information very fascinating however I think this would be more applicable to new shooters then those of us who already indoctrinated
right, my primary target since 1990 has been an 8.5x11 inch piece of paper at 30-50 feet for double-tap and fast fire practice and put every round on paper.
This is a variant on the old "balance a penny on the front sight" training trick. That is meant to show you that the front sight wiggling around a bit won't really affect your accuracy. At "inside your house" pistol range, if you can see the front sight in the rear sight's box (or the three dots are mostly lined up), and the penny hasn't fallen off, you'll get a hit. The penny is good for teaching trigger control, too. If your trigger pull is jerky or not straight back, you'll drop the penny.
I heard Tim Herron say something like this on a podcast. It's basically what I do, bisect the target with the rear sight, and when the front sight alignment is acceptable (for target size and distance) *yeet.*
I'm glad you put this out and they're not wrong. However, Brian Enos talks about this in his 1990 "Practical Shooting" publication. The knowledge of using sights in different ways has been out for over 30 years but is often overlooked.
Holy shit! this is exactly how I've been shooting for years and I could never explain it properly! especially for fast shooting at defensive ranges. I always told my buddies that I just get the target in the box (window) and ride the lightning till the mag is empty.
This actually makes perfect sense to me. My eye's aren't what they used to be, so I have a hard time focusing on the front sight. It's just a blur to me. I can see my target, but that front sight, I wish.
Good point...! at 7 yards too many folks want to take all day to shoot that 2 inch group...our happiness expands out to 4-5 inches (that horizontally, vertically add another inch or two), done before those folks get their second round off...see the target, send the round downrange, or, shoot first, hit first, for the win...under duress most folks will actually miss that first shot if in a big hurry, and more likely hit with subsequent shots...we don't get to plan how to engage any and every target, the bad guy will always have the initiative...we can practice at 7 yards, the more likely range 7 feet, which puts us back at shoot first, hit first...
I’m just a self taught old guy, these two guys are great teachers. My wife literally said, now I understand. Thank you so much for posting this! I say, squeeze the trigger, they say send it. My words, See the target in your rear sight and squeeze, don’t wait for the perfect picture, it may never come, not in self defense. I’m just a Nebraska homeboy, thanks for making sense of how I learned to shoot. Marksmanship at any distance with any weapon is the end result of practice.
I’ve never been confused about sights. I’ve never had trouble understanding their use. I’ve never struggled for a framework of understanding. Listening to these guys? Now, that is confusing! If I needed help understanding sights, I would be totally confused by this Mumbo-jumbo! The steering wheel is WHAT?? Whew. I just needed to walk away from this.
@@boomee78 we were. And we will be back in Virginia teaching Performance Pistol (which goes well beyond what we can cover in this video) on June 17th and 18th just outside Winchester, Va.
Really well done video. This is what I've been teaching students for years- not the windshield analogy, but I do like that. But that if someone is shooting poorly- 98 out of 100 it isn't the sights that they're messing up. Occasionally, and I mean RARELY, they forgot to keep the gun level, when focusing on the front sight, and they make more of a triangle- and shoot high. And I would even argue stance doesn't matter. I can shoot accurately standing on one leg- I might not be able to shoot rapidly, accurately, on one leg... but slowly... sure..... Grip, trigger, follow through.... that's what makes accurate shots, with grip being the most important.
Just an observation, not a critique. Been shooting since 5 (1957), competing since 18, LEO at 25 and agency/academy instructor at 35. Traditional sight alignment training, target-focus training (point shooting), combinations of each, some at highly prestigious training venues. Isosceles, Weaver and everything in between. RDS training/shooting, both handgun and long gun. Never once heard the phrase "see what you need to see". In our academy classes we basically teach what they're going for. Perfect sight alignment not critical for combat effective shots at close range unless you're going for the eyeball-behind-the-hostage's-head shot. Becomes more important as distance increases. Or deploy a rifle.
I believe this phenomenon is called ‘natural point of aim.’ From five yards or less a good grip and good stance equals a good hit, even with your eyes closed.
"Most of the shooting errors that we see have very little to do with sighting, [and have much more to do with grip". Yup. Sights aren't hard; it's keeping the gun rock steady while you press the trigger that trips people up. Had to help a guy at the range with this just last week. He wasn't gripping as hard as he should, and was pushing his shots low and right (he was a leftie). I grab his gun and center punch the target on the first shot. Difference being, I grip the gun as if it's going to explode if I don't, while he wasn't really doing anything with his support hand. The car analogy is a much more refined version of something John Correia of Active Self Protection offers: "Grip is the master, sights set the pace, trigger is the servant." I've always hated it because it doesn't feel intuitive in the least. But I can support this car analogy.
Thanks. I learned something. I hadn't been introduced to the "see what you need to see" meme, but I did train in the Applegate point shooting system. I astounded my trainers at the 7-meter rapid-fire event by finishing up that stage before most of the line got off their first shot. The contract was in the Middle East protecting a US Army logistics center in a peacetime environment prior to 9-11. Worse, I got 100% score over the entire course that included a 35-meter stage. No big deal because I routinely fired at 50 meters and when I could I shot my pistol at 100 meters. I scored 100% with both rifle and pistol twice on consecutive days and the trainers wanted to know the name of my shooting school. That incident was thirty years ago. The entire class, instructors and students, stared at me in disbelief. My technique varied depending on the distance and on how much time I had because "one size does not fit all." Now if I had to pop bottlecaps with a pistol at 7 meters, I would need to SLOW down and use a fine sight picture. I'd also need to determine where my pistol put bullets in relation to what the sights told me. Anyway, I conducted much of the small arms training for the contract (M9 pistol, M16A2 rifle and M60 machine gun) and got excellent results as measured by qualification scores. Thanks again--despite experience, I learned something new.
With a thumbs forwards grip and a good amount of hours on the same platform, you can shoot without using sights at all out to about 10, maybe 15, yards when shooting a human attacker. You just point with your front thumb and shoot when it feels right. But if you need more accuracy (due to distance or small target), this is great advice.
I've seen this taught, forgot by who, but it has helped me practice my low ready shooting. Yep, don't worry about exact dot placement, but have the front site anywhere within the back sites and you'll hit the target and save precious time.
I'm not sure I fully grasped this one. My takeaway is "if you're close to something, or the target is huge, don't worry about perfect sight alignment." Did I miss something?
They said if your target is bigger than your rear window and your front sight is somewhere in the rear window, take the shot. And if it's smaller than your rear window, then you need to start using the more front sight focus application. I tried it with a B8 target in my house and at the longest distance in my house (about 12 yards) the B8 black is still bigger than my rear sight window.
One of my tricks was one shot practice. Raise, shot and lower. Keep repeating. Till you are able to hit paper every time. Then do this and step it back. 10 feet, 15 feet and keep going. Then bring it back to 10 and do double tap while still raising, shot and lower. You need to practice. These guys do a good explanation for defensive use.
This was a fantastic video! First really novel discussion of hand gun firing theory in decades. I don't live near these guys, but I can certainly apply what they're saying. Awesome!
It is pretty obvious, but it's one of those things you aren't aware of as being obvious until you hear it, and then you have to reexamine your entire set of assumptions that your technique is based upon. Those who already know will know, and those who didn't already know will learn and grow.
The method of sighting discussed is very valid but emphasis should be made that this is applicable at 10 yards or less. Beyond that distance proper sight alignment, sight picture, grip and trigger press is vital if you have to make a meaningful shot placement. Rob Leatham said it first " you see what you need to see" he uses no sights most of the time at very close distances, but he too said that for any farther distances and difficult shots he used proper sight alignment/picture. The late Bill Allard of the famed NYPD Stakeout Squad the guy who had the most gunfights under his belt and survived them all believed in the strict application of the proper sight picture/alignment in all his encounters. " I remember the seven ridges on the front sight of my 1911" he said, speaking of actual shootings!
“They were training with another instructor, and one little (SIDE COMMENT?) he made about how he uses his pistol sights, blew their mind” No, that didn’t happen at all. I teach this concept, in depth, in all my classes and have for years. I believe I’m being completely misrepresented here
It actually works to a much higher level of precision with correctly built sights. With this method most people can be more “target focused” and still make 9 ring hits (on a B8) out to 15-20 yards.
Two weeks ago I pulled the trigger 186 times to fire 32 rounds of 357. I love dummy and ball. I don't saw even a single shooter doing dummy and ball in the last 33 years. Shoot right, shoot more and talk less.
This makes shit ton of sense. I'm self taught with a pistol and somewhat with a rifle (4 years Marine infantry, but doing it "their way" wasn't producing results. So I did it my way and qualified expert.) I don't focus on the front sight. Ever. I don't see it clearly. I look through the sights, superimposed over the target, and sort of unconsciously 'focus' on the sights while consciously 'seeing' the target clearly. Works 1,000x better than a blurry target and clear front sight.
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Good points!
hickok45 here
You been smokin some pot?
Big o7 to the most wholesome guntuber
Ringing gongs...
Life is good
"Mastery is an endless quest, but we can help you find proficiency" friggin love it. I've been shooting for years and I'm self taught. I've had to force myself out of bad habits. I'm new to competitive shooting but I don't really use my sights all that much. I'm much more concerned with other fundamentals.
Something to consider about bad habits are, do you have one or two that are working for you? Maybe just a little refinement is only needed to get you where you want to be..just my thoughts.
This is the single most helpful video I've ever seen on sight alignment.
Thanks
I'm a R.O at my range and have been down this exact thought path. New shooters will obsess over a perfect sight picture and then jerk the trigger or have a bad grip or flinch the shot etc etc, and it's because it's the only thing they can visualise and the easiest thing to initially get to grips with when being taught. Someone can look like they have a good grip because they're copying what others are doing but they don't understand the mechanics around it to make it effective for them. Developing a good grip and trigger pull takes time and practice, a good sight picture is easy. I tell people not to concentrate on the sights, get an acceptable sight picture, sure, but a marginal sight picture with good fundamentals will beat a perfect sight picture with bad fundamentals any day. The sights are not why people hit waaay low and left but they reckon if they can concentrate that bit harder on the sights the shot will magically hit the center.
I got a question about grip since your a R.O. If you dont mind answering. Is grip more about trying to squeeze my palms towards each other on both sides of the pistol grip and less of using my left hand thumb as a gas pedal against the side of the pistol frame? Hope this makes sense.
"The sights are not why people hit waaay low and left but they reckon if they can concentrate that bit harder on the sights the shot will magically hit the center."
I feel people think like this because everyone keeps repeating front "sight focus." So logically one might think "I missed my shot because I didn't focus enough on the front sight." For me I feel focusing too much on the front sights makes me more shaky and makes me less accurate. I'll try this mindset next time I go to the range, but I know I need a lot of work on my grip, my hands feel swollen and painful after going to the range and my grip gets loose after almost every shot.
Wilson Combat has a Mas Ayoob video on YT where he goes over the different ways to grip a gun. He has been around for a long time, is calm, and explains and demonstrates along the way better than I can explain in words. Watch that video. Gripping a small j-frame vs a large revolver vs a micro semiauto or a service size semiauto may vary on several factors, mainly hand size. I have used at one time or another all the various ways to grip a gun over five decades. I have chosen my method based on my small hands and my particular firearm and what has given me repeatable success draw after draw and thousands upon thousands of rounds of practice. Same for stance.
@@Austin_180 I use more of a push pull technique. Pulling toward my body with my support hand and pushing with my hand holding the pistol. I haven’t really heard of squeezing the palms together. How much force you use depends. Too much force and you will start shaking, too little and the gun moves as you pull the trigger. You can play with it a little bit and find a happy medium. The push pull technique also helps with recoil control to get you back on target faster. I have heard several professional shooters say they grip it as hard as they can and with practice you will be able to increase the force you can apply and still be rock solid. This technique has worked really well with my students so give it a try and let me know how it works for you.
@@Austin_180 I'll start by saying I have no teaching qualifications, the R.Os job is primarily to ensure safety on the range. grip is one of those things that seems straightforward but there's a huge amount of tiny differences that can make a difference. Recommend the humble marksman deep dive on the thumbs forward grip, he's also got a separate excellent video on why you shoot low and left with a Glock. warrior poet has a good explanation with battle gnome on the two schools of thought on grip. Eric graufell, multiple IPSC world champ has explained he uses body mechanics more than brute force grip strength to control recoil but that's a different issue than the grip causing inaccurate shots. I also share Rob leathams view that when you start shooting at all quickly you ARE going to slap/jerk the trigger. The key is having a good enough grip for the jerking to make a minimal difference on the shot. Like with a lot of things there are many ways to skin a cat, general principles apply but the exact method will vary person to person. In general, strong front to back pressure on the strong hand combined with a strong support hand squeeze with elbows rotated out and both hands torqued inwards as if trying to touch both thumbs together is a good place to start. I spent a good few years changing my grip often and finding what works. Its unfortunately one of those things that for me anyway I can only half teach, the rest is up to the shooter. Good luck
Damn how close are these guys shooting?? I do like the sights printed on transparencies. That's what I need to print for my wife and kids for teaching. At less that at 7 yards what are sights?? I like Rob Pincus' concept of "Balance of Speed and Precision". For beginners, learn to shoot at 15 yds, get good by shooting at 25 and then get fast by shooting at 7. In real life, learn the Balance of Speed and Precision.
That's the key. If we're inside 10y (probably the majority of self-defense & certainly most training) this holds true.
It's also a contributing factor why most people can't hit the target *stand* beyond 15y.
Have them play call of duty
They say exactly that in the video: for DEFENSIVE PURPOSES which translates to 7yds or less. In that case, this explanation is spectacular.
@@AOMartialArts in that case... lodge your barrel in between two ribs and gently squeeze off a round. They also talk about bad grip and shooting low left. So we are shooting a
Took their shotgun class a few years ago. Awesome teachers, and great techniques
When we trained with Tim Herron in 2019 his practice of driving the gun with the rear sight started us down the path of rethinking how we were using and teaching sights. If you never stop learning you never stop improving.
As an O.D. this introduction of vision and perception skills is sound. The concept of a window is frequently utilized in vision therapy both for regaining function and honing one’s abilities in a sports context.
Wow really good info. Coincidentally I was just thinking about buying fiber optic sights for my m&p shield 9mm
I can shoot very accurately by NOT focusing on my sights, by focusing on my target and keeping the sights blurry so I can vaguely see that the sights are aligned, but very clearly see where my sights are indexed.
@@nullface_YT Complete BS, you will NEVER see in a court of law the conversation of target focus to try and decide guilt!
My wife and I are fairly new to shooting. We are seniors and have been wanting to train ourselves for our protection. We have taken classes and go to the range at least monthly. I have gotten better but the wife has gotten crazy good. The problem has been that first shot or two in an emergency situation. We came up with a drill where you grab the gun off the table, drawing from a holster is not allowed, and take two shots in 3 seconds. Both of us have real problems with making effective shots in that time frame. This concept your trainers brought opened our eyes! We will be adding these ideas to our training. Thanks for the great video. Keep up the good work!
I also practice a similar emergency 2-round quick succession scenario at the range, usually with the target around 7 to 10 yards. For that distance, what I've found that has helped me the most to do that acceptably is just drawing over and over at home (no live ammo) to gain muscle memory of bringing the firearm to eye level and having the gun "instinctively" aimed at my target. I'm not worried about aligning or evein viewing the front OR rear sight. I just want to bring it up and hit mass quickly. What these guys are saying is somewhat similar...basically you don't need perfect aim, you just gotta have good enough aim to hit mass.
@@paulcallaway71 Yes, and the key point in this video is that the alignment of the rear sight is a really good first indicator. The rest (such as the view of the front sight in the rear sight) is finer tuning.
Actually the main point of the video is that the grip is the main thing that determines accuracy, for very many reasons.
Dry fire and laser trainers are great ways to train at home without spending money on ammunition and it will help you train drawing in a safe way.
@@jacobstaten2366 Good points. Thanks
When I practice shooting for defensive combat. I use one hand ( right or wrong ) to put the weapon on target and my other hand to work the trigger and offer very little support. My drill has always been 3 shots when I pull the trigger so if I'm going to shoot defensively my target gets three rounds consecutively. One problem I have with instructors is that they want you to shoot at a distance of 5 to 10 yards. I believe that's impractical unless someone is training to shoot across a parking lot. If Im just plinking and having some fun I'll shoot 25 or 50 yards, but in a real domestic combat situation the distance is going to be 3 yards or less. That's under ten feet. That's the distance I believe people should be shooting at to simulate the true distance in a self defense situation, and it could be as little as 3 or 4 feet. At those distances you don't need sights. I say forget about eye level sighting unless you want to shoot targets. Try not to make things hard for yourself. Taking 2 shots in 3 seconds is a long time unless it's just target shooting. I practice groups of 3 shots, so it's bam, bam, bam, and then a brief pause to see my grouping, and make any adjustments, and then continue. Be wary of instructors saying things like I've been a police officer for 20 years, and I was in the military. That doesn't mean anything to me. If you're thinking home protection. Always have a plan. If you don't have a plan you're going to be part of someone else's plan. One last thing. Don't make the mistake of trying to find one gun thats going to work for both of you, because that doesn't exist. You're going to have something that suites you best and she'll have something that works best for her. Anyway, keep your gun well lubricated and play safe.
Great to see these guys get some screen time. Their classes are well worth it. 👍👊
It sounds to me literally TIM HERRONS teaching. Tim was a race car driver and uses the window analogy. He moves into a sight movie, not a sight picture.
When he moves to distance, he teaches anchoring the rear sight. Imo a huge diservice to Tim by stealing this with limited credit.
I prefer iron sights when pistol shooting, but I prefer an optic when rifle shooting.
This is interesting. When I switched from irons to a red dot one issue I had was I was waiting a long time for the red dot to settle perfectly in the window. I realized that this was costing me speed on targets where I could still get an acceptable hit even with the red dot not nearly as centered in that window as I might have thought. Basically I needed to learn what I “needed to see”. It was sort of an odd situation as I had spent time doing reflexive shooting courses based on the teachings of people like Bob Taubert where we shot with the sights entirely removed from the pistol and still got very effective hits up close by focusing on our grips and body positioning. Over time I had forgotten those lessons.
What I found even more interesting is now when I go back to shoot irons I find I apply the same practices, that of using my rear sight as a window, like described here, and as long as I get the front sight in that window I know I can press the shot (like they cover here the size of the target zone matters). This ended up improving my iron sight shooting, too.
I had a very similar experience when I switched to red dots. My standard of "acceptable sight picture" got much higher because I was now able to refine it much more than I was with irons, and at close range, it was slowing me down. At longer ranges, where I would have to refine my sight picture regardless of the dot or irons, the dot was faster and more accurate. I love shooting both but it is something than needs to be considered when switching--many think a dot will make everything better without the need to train on the new hardware.
@@locomike102 valuable insight from you and Zero. I just got a Holosun 507K green dot for my P365X that I'm going to zero and shoot for the first time this weekend. I feel fairly proficient with irons but I think the dot will take some getting used to.
That's why I only stick with iron sights.
@@PerceptionVsReality333 me eventually getting better with the dot and seeing that doing so also improved my shooting with irons is why you choose to stick with irons?
Don’t look at the red dot, look at the target and impose the dot onto the target.
I was a cop for 20 years, and a firearms instructor for many years. I was also a Marine with 10 years of service. In 30 overall years of fireams and marksmanship training; prior to watching this video, I NEVER, not once, ever heard anyone say, "see what you need to see". That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, simply because it means absolutely nothing! I'm glad I never had to hear that stooopid phrase, and thus never had to throat punch anyone at the range!
It’s almost as bad as “it is what it is” 🙄but the problem I see newbies doing is closing one eye, and that’s when I say ‘your trying to put the circle in the square”… and people understand what I’m saying which is open both eyes when you’re pulling the trigger dammit! …but see what you need to see? Sounds like an 80s song or something ..it’s as dumb as when Daffy duck tryed to hide under the bed during a housefire 😂
Yeah, I have never heard that. These guys didn’t give me any assistance in figuring out what it’s supposed to mean, either!
I bought a red dot before I even owned my first firearm, so I started on a HS509T. ...But going back & learning on iron sights is a fun challenge at the range.
they need darker glasses maybe bigger ones lols
Wonder if they double as welding goggles.
Saw this technique about a year ago on the Humble Marksman - "How to use Iron Sights efficiently | Tim Herron Interview". If you watch this video, then you need to follow up with that video and get the intel straight from the horse's mouth. You will be glad you did!
With that said this video provides a lot more detail in regards to defensive shooting. I also agree that grip is often the primary reason for failing to hit the target.
Thank you! I truly appreciate that!
You mean Tim knows this and they butchered it to be like what we came up with i mean stole 😂
Tim's the man. He has his own channel, "Tim Herron Shooting." It's a fantastic resource for anyone who wants to get better. You'll be getting information from a bonafide USPSA Grandmaster for free. The only thing you need is discipline and time.
Thanks so much!
100%
These gentlemen seem like an excellent teaching team. They compliment each other nicely. And the way they take over explaining without stepping on eachothers toes is impressive IMHO
One thing that helped me improve with irons was actually becoming adept with a dot. My carry gun I have an optic mounted and my nightstand gun (which previously had an optic) I returned to irons. Having to relearn irons after a long time only using dots, I've found I'm way faster and more accurate shooting it at regular handgun distances with a target focus, like I had a dot on it, than focusing on the front sight. Plus, when I focus on front sight, my target splits which can make it hard to tell what I'm shooting at. At longer distances I'm sure I'd need to focus on the front sight more.
Well yeah from 10 feet away its not exactly hard to hit your target 😂 I dont understand are people trying to get a perfect sight picture at 7 yards?
Yeah lol
People who haven't shot mutch will take equal amounts of time to shoot a 7 yard target as they do a 25 yard target. Irons, dots, scope doesn't matter.
It all depends on their level of experience and training.
I found this rear sight mentality when I started shooting competition and was forced to speed up target acquisition. Standing and shooting a piece of paper is a lot different than moving and shooting multiple targets on a timer...and in sure actually using your weapon in the line of duty is a whole other level of pressure. Little tidbits like this that may seem obvious to some are not so apparent to others and can really flip on a light switch in one's mind.
Hold over from the days of bullseye shooting. Most Pistol instructors from years gone by were competitors from NRA target matches. Jeff Cooper was one of pioneers of teaching combat pistol shooting.
"I don't understand... trying to get a perfect sight picture..."? People are typically trained to concentrate on hitting a small bullseye, which is excessively time-consuming and unnecessary for *defensive* shooting.
It's a shame they won't sell me ammo. I went though a lot to be licensed to buy it online in California.
While we fight for everyone's rights from behind enemy lines.
We'll remember who supported us and who crapped on us, and Lucky Gunner are the crappers.
It never ceases to amaze me how chubby tactical types can wax on for hours convoluting shooting principals that are so frigging basic. These are the same guys who in decades past preached that you absolutely, positively MUST use the Weaver stance otherwise, you're not shooting properly. They're not unlike toothpaste companies who continuously re-invent their product despite no real need to do so, yet they have to stay relevant by generating interest in what they're selling.
This is fine at "combat" distances, but for qualifying at 10 yards or more, you need deliberate sight alignment and to focus on the front sight. This along with trigger control; no jerking, flinching, or anticipating. Practice, practice, practice.✌🏽
If people feel like they need to work on these close-range aiming techniques, is there any good reason they shouldn't just get an airsoft version of their gun of choice and practice with that? Obviously the recoil isn't the same and the trigger feel won't be identical, but for working on presenting the gun with a good, consistently-repeatable grip, while getting adequately on-target for a close-range shot, I would think one of the gas blowback airsoft pistols would be a great tool. The "accuracy" and projectile speed differences aren't super relevant at these kinds of extreme close ranges. You'll be able to shoot a lot, try different things, and find out quickly what works!
Don't use firearms to teach people how to shoot. That's like giving a kid a paint brush to teach them how to draw or write. It just makes the learning curve steeper by forcing the student to use the least forgiving highest level tools off the bat. It's stupid.
Give someone a BB gun without adjustable sights. Then teach them to reliably hit soda cans at 5 to 6 different distances.
Once they get good at that, set out a few plastic bottle caps at various ranges and have them snap those.
If they try equal height equal light they will suck. If they start to experiment with offsetting the front sight they will succeed.
Easy, simple.
And if you want to teach a smooth trigger pull, get a long barreled rubber band gun and load up the heaviest rubber bands you can find.
I fail to see how this concept is more easily understood/conceptualized than either "punching the front sight at the threat" (aka focus on the front sight only) or "point shooting" (pointing your finger at the threat and ignoring the sights altogether) both of which are valid and easily teachable "close range" techniques. Pretty much any technique that involves a good draw and grip, including this "rear sight" technique should work at close range (10 yards and less).
Jeff Cooper said: the sights are to check your alignment with the target. At typical self defence distances you don't need the sights if you get the rest right.
I see what's being said. As a person with a bit of anatomical understanding, I would rather be as precise as possible with my aim. However, as a person with a bit of physiological understanding, I must realize that if I am considering the horrific need to shoot an attacker in order to survive, I will be facing a tidal wave of adrenaline and extreme time pressure. This video explains some geometric tolerances.
I trained with Tim Herron in 2018 and this sounds a lot like the conversation and block of instruction that he gave during that class.
He was a performance driving instructor, it’s easy to see how he came to correlating the concepts of performance driving and shooting as it pertains to vision.
Kind of shitty that he was given so little due credit and was glossed over, and that you’re leading folks to believe this was your original idea/concept…
Fact: You don't need sights on a gun for engagements within 15 feet. And with enough practice you can hit a man size target at that same distance with your eyes closed/in the dark by simply getting muscle memory and audio orientation.
Having said all of that I do have all of my guns with either red dots or night sights for time or distance allowing shots.
If I ever heard "see what you need to see" from an instructor I probably would have given up lessons, just because that's so vague and generalized.
Theoretically the barrel can be pointing low and still have the rear sight on the target. One still needs a reference point from the front of the barrel. And if they sell this, IMO I would never take a class from these guys. Again only my opinion.
It takes TIME to use the sights on a handgun. In a self-defense situation, you do NOT have the time, the target is moving, and, if you have to aim very accurately, you are far enough away from the threat to retreat. Therefore training in using the sights is an esoteric endeavor unless you are in organized warfare and you are trying to use a handgun in place of a rifle.
Front sight focus with extra steps. The only way to disagree is to deliberately misinterpret front sight focus. Put the front sight over the target. If the target is larger than the front sight and it's relatively boxed by the rear sight, send it. If the target is the size of the front sight and smaller, tighten that shit up.
New spin on what people should be doing.
That's actually how I use irons because I was thought to shoot by my dad who was raised in an army home and served himself, but he never told me which sight to focus in
Chris, with much respect to you and these guys I would suggest the viewer find Rob Lathem , his philosophy, or I should say, approach shooting is dramatically better in every way , and I’m sure these guys would agree. Thanks
Can't agree more, but if I may, I will add that in my home defense class, I usually taught my students your weapon lights/laser/trigger finger is pointing where your bullet will most likely go. You won't have time to find your sight at all not even bringing up your normal firing height. We also teach students to use low rise ready for direct point and shoot, without aiming at all, in a classic 21 feet scenario. Weapon light in home defense is sometimes more important than tritium and red dot sights.
I mihgt be totally wrong with this, but wasn't this one of the primary ideas behind groove/channel/gutter sights?
Finally! Someone that makes sense about using the rear sight as your focal point first. I’ve done that since I started shooting and it works. I’ve heard all the “tacticool” kids say “hard front sight focus” crap, and it just doesn’t makes sense to me and it doesn’t work for me. Even though I used blacked out rear sights, the notch is the window that I look through.
Very nicely explained. I was a world class skeet shooter and taught and coached many people so I know the skills I need to teach. Now that I shoot pistol almost exclusively this is an excellent way to teach how to shoot. The most important thing with a handgun is hand control and bringing your gun back to target after each shot. If you want an excellent visual aid, shoot a gun with a laser. It’s shocking how much your hand moves without recoil and more shock with recoil.
This is an interesting but somewhat long winded way to get there. Target focus guys say "hold my beer"
That is the stupidest, most confusing analogy I've ever heard for using sights.
Well, that's a different interpretation of what they call a soup kitchen. Thanks for this, Chris! I would have made it to TacCon this year but I think Tim and Ash borrowed my car because I can't find it.
Lol the thumbnail looks like you said the wrong thing to Ben Shapiro 😂🤣😂
Been shooting all my life and never heard anything about, “see what you need to see”.
This interview should have been with Tim Herron. Its the material he has been teaching for years.
Thats gonna be a no from me dog. Focus on that front sight. Theres a reason why lots of race guns come with blackout rears
Ben Stoeger has been teaching this forever. Glad to see it’s catching on
9:00 when using a dot you can see when you goof your shots from grip or trigger issues.
Sorry I was just over 6 minutes in and couldn't Watch anymore
I sort of understand what he's saying. There are distances ( particularly in the realm of self defense ) where you can get good hits on target faster without seeing your sights at all. Also known as point shooting. You're still seeing what you need to see... because you're still getting combat effective hits.
I have 10 years of experience handling firearms, I find this information very fascinating however I think this would be more applicable to new shooters then those of us who already indoctrinated
Always enjoy the videos and You Chris.. very well done.. super cool content.. and thats why i have been watching for well over 5 years
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!
Fantastic, this just blew my mind
... is rifle sights
😂
right, my primary target since 1990 has been an 8.5x11 inch piece of paper at 30-50 feet for double-tap and fast fire practice and put every round on paper.
This is a variant on the old "balance a penny on the front sight" training trick. That is meant to show you that the front sight wiggling around a bit won't really affect your accuracy. At "inside your house" pistol range, if you can see the front sight in the rear sight's box (or the three dots are mostly lined up), and the penny hasn't fallen off, you'll get a hit. The penny is good for teaching trigger control, too. If your trigger pull is jerky or not straight back, you'll drop the penny.
I heard Tim Herron say something like this on a podcast. It's basically what I do, bisect the target with the rear sight, and when the front sight alignment is acceptable (for target size and distance) *yeet.*
Yes, I’ve been teaching this for years
@@TimHerronShooting hey brother I need you to bug Matt to do another gun gripes modcast
I'm glad you put this out and they're not wrong. However, Brian Enos talks about this in his 1990 "Practical Shooting" publication. The knowledge of using sights in different ways has been out for over 30 years but is often overlooked.
Holy shit! this is exactly how I've been shooting for years and I could never explain it properly! especially for fast shooting at defensive ranges. I always told my buddies that I just get the target in the box (window) and ride the lightning till the mag is empty.
They just overly explained minute of man
Yep great video... very instructional .. thanks
The car driving analogy was brilliant and very eye opening. Great video keep up the good work!!!
Thank Tim Herron for that, it's his analogy.
They are teaching Tim Herron techniques based on their understanding of his technique. I'd rather get the information directly from him.
Amen to that
This actually makes perfect sense to me. My eye's aren't what they used to be, so I have a hard time focusing on the front sight. It's just a blur to me. I can see my target, but that front sight, I wish.
Go to an shooting sports friendly optician.
@@onpsxmember I wasn't even aware there were such a place.
I was taught to misalign the sights (as an experiment) slightly to see the results. You can then learn what amount of "slop" you can live with.
Good point...! at 7 yards too many folks want to take all day to shoot that 2 inch group...our happiness expands out to 4-5 inches (that horizontally, vertically add another inch or two), done before those folks get their second round off...see the target, send the round downrange, or, shoot first, hit first, for the win...under duress most folks will actually miss that first shot if in a big hurry, and more likely hit with subsequent shots...we don't get to plan how to engage any and every target, the bad guy will always have the initiative...we can practice at 7 yards, the more likely range 7 feet, which puts us back at shoot first, hit first...
I’m just a self taught old guy, these two guys are great teachers. My wife literally said, now I understand. Thank you so much for posting this! I say, squeeze the trigger, they say send it. My words, See the target in your rear sight and squeeze, don’t wait for the perfect picture, it may never come, not in self defense. I’m just a Nebraska homeboy, thanks for making sense of how I learned to shoot. Marksmanship at any distance with any weapon is the end result of practice.
I’ve never been confused about sights. I’ve never had trouble understanding their use. I’ve never struggled for a framework of understanding. Listening to these guys? Now, that is confusing! If I needed help understanding sights, I would be totally confused by this Mumbo-jumbo! The steering wheel is WHAT?? Whew. I just needed to walk away from this.
Chris, thanks for highlighting Tim and Ash. Just got this a bit at their Red Pill pistol one day in Culpepper.
He was in VA?
@@boomee78 we were. And we will be back in Virginia teaching Performance Pistol (which goes well beyond what we can cover in this video) on June 17th and 18th just outside Winchester, Va.
@TCInVA if i can get leave im there
Chris, Is that a P-07 in the video thumbnail?
Are you testing a P-07?
I'm part of your notification gang and this is the first out of 6-7 of your recent videos UA-cam has decided to notify me about. 😔
Yep, UA-cam does like that
Really well done video. This is what I've been teaching students for years- not the windshield analogy, but I do like that. But that if someone is shooting poorly- 98 out of 100 it isn't the sights that they're messing up. Occasionally, and I mean RARELY, they forgot to keep the gun level, when focusing on the front sight, and they make more of a triangle- and shoot high. And I would even argue stance doesn't matter. I can shoot accurately standing on one leg- I might not be able to shoot rapidly, accurately, on one leg... but slowly... sure..... Grip, trigger, follow through.... that's what makes accurate shots, with grip being the most important.
Just an observation, not a critique. Been shooting since 5 (1957), competing since 18, LEO at 25 and agency/academy instructor at 35. Traditional sight alignment training, target-focus training (point shooting), combinations of each, some at highly prestigious training venues. Isosceles, Weaver and everything in between. RDS training/shooting, both handgun and long gun. Never once heard the phrase "see what you need to see". In our academy classes we basically teach what they're going for. Perfect sight alignment not critical for combat effective shots at close range unless you're going for the eyeball-behind-the-hostage's-head shot. Becomes more important as distance increases. Or deploy a rifle.
Thanks
I believe this phenomenon is called ‘natural point of aim.’ From five yards or less a good grip and good stance equals a good hit, even with your eyes closed.
"Most of the shooting errors that we see have very little to do with sighting, [and have much more to do with grip".
Yup. Sights aren't hard; it's keeping the gun rock steady while you press the trigger that trips people up. Had to help a guy at the range with this just last week. He wasn't gripping as hard as he should, and was pushing his shots low and right (he was a leftie). I grab his gun and center punch the target on the first shot. Difference being, I grip the gun as if it's going to explode if I don't, while he wasn't really doing anything with his support hand.
The car analogy is a much more refined version of something John Correia of Active Self Protection offers: "Grip is the master, sights set the pace, trigger is the servant." I've always hated it because it doesn't feel intuitive in the least. But I can support this car analogy.
Thanks. I learned something. I hadn't been introduced to the "see what you need to see" meme, but I did train in the Applegate point shooting system. I astounded my trainers at the 7-meter rapid-fire event by finishing up that stage before most of the line got off their first shot. The contract was in the Middle East protecting a US Army logistics center in a peacetime environment prior to 9-11. Worse, I got 100% score over the entire course that included a 35-meter stage. No big deal because I routinely fired at 50 meters and when I could I shot my pistol at 100 meters. I scored 100% with both rifle and pistol twice on consecutive days and the trainers wanted to know the name of my shooting school. That incident was thirty years ago. The entire class, instructors and students, stared at me in disbelief. My technique varied depending on the distance and on how much time I had because "one size does not fit all." Now if I had to pop bottlecaps with a pistol at 7 meters, I would need to SLOW down and use a fine sight picture. I'd also need to determine where my pistol put bullets in relation to what the sights told me. Anyway, I conducted much of the small arms training for the contract (M9 pistol, M16A2 rifle and M60 machine gun) and got excellent results as measured by qualification scores. Thanks again--despite experience, I learned something new.
Chris Baker is one of the smartest guys in the community. he is the epitome of the thinking man's approach to shooting
DO they credit Tim for this openly?
With a thumbs forwards grip and a good amount of hours on the same platform, you can shoot without using sights at all out to about 10, maybe 15, yards when shooting a human attacker. You just point with your front thumb and shoot when it feels right. But if you need more accuracy (due to distance or small target), this is great advice.
I've seen this taught, forgot by who, but it has helped me practice my low ready shooting. Yep, don't worry about exact dot placement, but have the front site anywhere within the back sites and you'll hit the target and save precious time.
This is really amazing! Thanks! I'll try this the next time I'm at the range
I'm not sure I fully grasped this one. My takeaway is "if you're close to something, or the target is huge, don't worry about perfect sight alignment." Did I miss something?
That was my understanding. For precision shooting I think I'm going to keep using my front sight.
They said if your target is bigger than your rear window and your front sight is somewhere in the rear window, take the shot. And if it's smaller than your rear window, then you need to start using the more front sight focus application. I tried it with a B8 target in my house and at the longest distance in my house (about 12 yards) the B8 black is still bigger than my rear sight window.
One of my tricks was one shot practice.
Raise, shot and lower.
Keep repeating.
Till you are able to hit paper every time.
Then do this and step it back.
10 feet, 15 feet and keep going.
Then bring it back to 10 and do double tap while still raising, shot and lower.
You need to practice.
These guys do a good explanation for defensive use.
Excellent points about sight picture/movie that are rarely discussed.
This was a fantastic video! First really novel discussion of hand gun firing theory in decades. I don't live near these guys, but I can certainly apply what they're saying. Awesome!
makes me wonder if there was a similar training method with the very old tiny sights that came with Colts and S&Ws
I have never heard anyone say "See what you need to see". It has no useful meaning.
Was thinking the same thing but maybe cause I've only been learning about shooting firearms for just forty years. :)
Hate to say it, but file this one under, "duh". Not sure this is revolutionary at all...
It is pretty obvious, but it's one of those things you aren't aware of as being obvious until you hear it, and then you have to reexamine your entire set of assumptions that your technique is based upon. Those who already know will know, and those who didn't already know will learn and grow.
This is a great explanation of defensive shooting
The method of sighting discussed is very valid but emphasis should be made that this is applicable at 10 yards or less. Beyond that distance proper sight alignment, sight picture, grip and trigger press is vital if you have to make a meaningful shot placement. Rob Leatham said it first " you see what you need to see" he uses no sights most of the time at very close distances, but he too said that for any farther distances and difficult shots he used proper sight alignment/picture. The late Bill Allard of the famed NYPD Stakeout Squad the guy who had the most gunfights under his belt and survived them all believed in the strict application of the proper sight picture/alignment in all his encounters. " I remember the seven ridges on the front sight of my 1911" he said, speaking of actual shootings!
“They were training with another instructor, and one little (SIDE COMMENT?) he made about how he uses his pistol sights, blew their mind”
No, that didn’t happen at all. I teach this concept, in depth, in all my classes and have for years.
I believe I’m being completely misrepresented here
Interesting, this is basically the idea behind guttersnipe sights. Not great for precision shooting, but solid defensive theory.
It actually works to a much higher level of precision with correctly built sights. With this method most people can be more “target focused” and still make 9 ring hits (on a B8) out to 15-20 yards.
9:16 100% agree. 👌🏻 and excellent video all around!
Two weeks ago I pulled the trigger 186 times to fire 32 rounds of 357. I love dummy and ball. I don't saw even a single shooter doing dummy and ball in the last 33 years.
Shoot right, shoot more and talk less.
This makes shit ton of sense. I'm self taught with a pistol and somewhat with a rifle (4 years Marine infantry, but doing it "their way" wasn't producing results. So I did it my way and qualified expert.)
I don't focus on the front sight. Ever. I don't see it clearly. I look through the sights, superimposed over the target, and sort of unconsciously 'focus' on the sights while consciously 'seeing' the target clearly.
Works 1,000x better than a blurry target and clear front sight.
uh so they are reinventing the concept of ghost ring pretty much
Thank you, someone else thought the same thing I did.