"Mastery is an endless quest, but we can help you find proficiency" friggin love it. I've been shooting for years and I'm self taught. I've had to force myself out of bad habits. I'm new to competitive shooting but I don't really use my sights all that much. I'm much more concerned with other fundamentals.
Something to consider about bad habits are, do you have one or two that are working for you? Maybe just a little refinement is only needed to get you where you want to be..just my thoughts.
I'm a R.O at my range and have been down this exact thought path. New shooters will obsess over a perfect sight picture and then jerk the trigger or have a bad grip or flinch the shot etc etc, and it's because it's the only thing they can visualise and the easiest thing to initially get to grips with when being taught. Someone can look like they have a good grip because they're copying what others are doing but they don't understand the mechanics around it to make it effective for them. Developing a good grip and trigger pull takes time and practice, a good sight picture is easy. I tell people not to concentrate on the sights, get an acceptable sight picture, sure, but a marginal sight picture with good fundamentals will beat a perfect sight picture with bad fundamentals any day. The sights are not why people hit waaay low and left but they reckon if they can concentrate that bit harder on the sights the shot will magically hit the center.
I got a question about grip since your a R.O. If you dont mind answering. Is grip more about trying to squeeze my palms towards each other on both sides of the pistol grip and less of using my left hand thumb as a gas pedal against the side of the pistol frame? Hope this makes sense.
"The sights are not why people hit waaay low and left but they reckon if they can concentrate that bit harder on the sights the shot will magically hit the center." I feel people think like this because everyone keeps repeating front "sight focus." So logically one might think "I missed my shot because I didn't focus enough on the front sight." For me I feel focusing too much on the front sights makes me more shaky and makes me less accurate. I'll try this mindset next time I go to the range, but I know I need a lot of work on my grip, my hands feel swollen and painful after going to the range and my grip gets loose after almost every shot.
Wilson Combat has a Mas Ayoob video on YT where he goes over the different ways to grip a gun. He has been around for a long time, is calm, and explains and demonstrates along the way better than I can explain in words. Watch that video. Gripping a small j-frame vs a large revolver vs a micro semiauto or a service size semiauto may vary on several factors, mainly hand size. I have used at one time or another all the various ways to grip a gun over five decades. I have chosen my method based on my small hands and my particular firearm and what has given me repeatable success draw after draw and thousands upon thousands of rounds of practice. Same for stance.
@@Austin_180 I use more of a push pull technique. Pulling toward my body with my support hand and pushing with my hand holding the pistol. I haven’t really heard of squeezing the palms together. How much force you use depends. Too much force and you will start shaking, too little and the gun moves as you pull the trigger. You can play with it a little bit and find a happy medium. The push pull technique also helps with recoil control to get you back on target faster. I have heard several professional shooters say they grip it as hard as they can and with practice you will be able to increase the force you can apply and still be rock solid. This technique has worked really well with my students so give it a try and let me know how it works for you.
@@Austin_180 I'll start by saying I have no teaching qualifications, the R.Os job is primarily to ensure safety on the range. grip is one of those things that seems straightforward but there's a huge amount of tiny differences that can make a difference. Recommend the humble marksman deep dive on the thumbs forward grip, he's also got a separate excellent video on why you shoot low and left with a Glock. warrior poet has a good explanation with battle gnome on the two schools of thought on grip. Eric graufell, multiple IPSC world champ has explained he uses body mechanics more than brute force grip strength to control recoil but that's a different issue than the grip causing inaccurate shots. I also share Rob leathams view that when you start shooting at all quickly you ARE going to slap/jerk the trigger. The key is having a good enough grip for the jerking to make a minimal difference on the shot. Like with a lot of things there are many ways to skin a cat, general principles apply but the exact method will vary person to person. In general, strong front to back pressure on the strong hand combined with a strong support hand squeeze with elbows rotated out and both hands torqued inwards as if trying to touch both thumbs together is a good place to start. I spent a good few years changing my grip often and finding what works. Its unfortunately one of those things that for me anyway I can only half teach, the rest is up to the shooter. Good luck
When we trained with Tim Herron in 2019 his practice of driving the gun with the rear sight started us down the path of rethinking how we were using and teaching sights. If you never stop learning you never stop improving.
As an O.D. this introduction of vision and perception skills is sound. The concept of a window is frequently utilized in vision therapy both for regaining function and honing one’s abilities in a sports context.
I’m just a self taught old guy, these two guys are great teachers. My wife literally said, now I understand. Thank you so much for posting this! I say, squeeze the trigger, they say send it. My words, See the target in your rear sight and squeeze, don’t wait for the perfect picture, it may never come, not in self defense. I’m just a Nebraska homeboy, thanks for making sense of how I learned to shoot. Marksmanship at any distance with any weapon is the end result of practice.
My wife and I are fairly new to shooting. We are seniors and have been wanting to train ourselves for our protection. We have taken classes and go to the range at least monthly. I have gotten better but the wife has gotten crazy good. The problem has been that first shot or two in an emergency situation. We came up with a drill where you grab the gun off the table, drawing from a holster is not allowed, and take two shots in 3 seconds. Both of us have real problems with making effective shots in that time frame. This concept your trainers brought opened our eyes! We will be adding these ideas to our training. Thanks for the great video. Keep up the good work!
I also practice a similar emergency 2-round quick succession scenario at the range, usually with the target around 7 to 10 yards. For that distance, what I've found that has helped me the most to do that acceptably is just drawing over and over at home (no live ammo) to gain muscle memory of bringing the firearm to eye level and having the gun "instinctively" aimed at my target. I'm not worried about aligning or evein viewing the front OR rear sight. I just want to bring it up and hit mass quickly. What these guys are saying is somewhat similar...basically you don't need perfect aim, you just gotta have good enough aim to hit mass.
@@paulcallaway71 Yes, and the key point in this video is that the alignment of the rear sight is a really good first indicator. The rest (such as the view of the front sight in the rear sight) is finer tuning. Actually the main point of the video is that the grip is the main thing that determines accuracy, for very many reasons.
When I practice shooting for defensive combat. I use one hand ( right or wrong ) to put the weapon on target and my other hand to work the trigger and offer very little support. My drill has always been 3 shots when I pull the trigger so if I'm going to shoot defensively my target gets three rounds consecutively. One problem I have with instructors is that they want you to shoot at a distance of 5 to 10 yards. I believe that's impractical unless someone is training to shoot across a parking lot. If Im just plinking and having some fun I'll shoot 25 or 50 yards, but in a real domestic combat situation the distance is going to be 3 yards or less. That's under ten feet. That's the distance I believe people should be shooting at to simulate the true distance in a self defense situation, and it could be as little as 3 or 4 feet. At those distances you don't need sights. I say forget about eye level sighting unless you want to shoot targets. Try not to make things hard for yourself. Taking 2 shots in 3 seconds is a long time unless it's just target shooting. I practice groups of 3 shots, so it's bam, bam, bam, and then a brief pause to see my grouping, and make any adjustments, and then continue. Be wary of instructors saying things like I've been a police officer for 20 years, and I was in the military. That doesn't mean anything to me. If you're thinking home protection. Always have a plan. If you don't have a plan you're going to be part of someone else's plan. One last thing. Don't make the mistake of trying to find one gun thats going to work for both of you, because that doesn't exist. You're going to have something that suites you best and she'll have something that works best for her. Anyway, keep your gun well lubricated and play safe.
This is interesting. When I switched from irons to a red dot one issue I had was I was waiting a long time for the red dot to settle perfectly in the window. I realized that this was costing me speed on targets where I could still get an acceptable hit even with the red dot not nearly as centered in that window as I might have thought. Basically I needed to learn what I “needed to see”. It was sort of an odd situation as I had spent time doing reflexive shooting courses based on the teachings of people like Bob Taubert where we shot with the sights entirely removed from the pistol and still got very effective hits up close by focusing on our grips and body positioning. Over time I had forgotten those lessons. What I found even more interesting is now when I go back to shoot irons I find I apply the same practices, that of using my rear sight as a window, like described here, and as long as I get the front sight in that window I know I can press the shot (like they cover here the size of the target zone matters). This ended up improving my iron sight shooting, too.
I had a very similar experience when I switched to red dots. My standard of "acceptable sight picture" got much higher because I was now able to refine it much more than I was with irons, and at close range, it was slowing me down. At longer ranges, where I would have to refine my sight picture regardless of the dot or irons, the dot was faster and more accurate. I love shooting both but it is something than needs to be considered when switching--many think a dot will make everything better without the need to train on the new hardware.
@@locomike102 valuable insight from you and Zero. I just got a Holosun 507K green dot for my P365X that I'm going to zero and shoot for the first time this weekend. I feel fairly proficient with irons but I think the dot will take some getting used to.
@@PerceptionVsReality333 me eventually getting better with the dot and seeing that doing so also improved my shooting with irons is why you choose to stick with irons?
These gentlemen seem like an excellent teaching team. They compliment each other nicely. And the way they take over explaining without stepping on eachothers toes is impressive IMHO
Very nicely explained. I was a world class skeet shooter and taught and coached many people so I know the skills I need to teach. Now that I shoot pistol almost exclusively this is an excellent way to teach how to shoot. The most important thing with a handgun is hand control and bringing your gun back to target after each shot. If you want an excellent visual aid, shoot a gun with a laser. It’s shocking how much your hand moves without recoil and more shock with recoil.
Saw this technique about a year ago on the Humble Marksman - "How to use Iron Sights efficiently | Tim Herron Interview". If you watch this video, then you need to follow up with that video and get the intel straight from the horse's mouth. You will be glad you did! With that said this video provides a lot more detail in regards to defensive shooting. I also agree that grip is often the primary reason for failing to hit the target.
I'm glad you put this out and they're not wrong. However, Brian Enos talks about this in his 1990 "Practical Shooting" publication. The knowledge of using sights in different ways has been out for over 30 years but is often overlooked.
Finally! Someone that makes sense about using the rear sight as your focal point first. I’ve done that since I started shooting and it works. I’ve heard all the “tacticool” kids say “hard front sight focus” crap, and it just doesn’t makes sense to me and it doesn’t work for me. Even though I used blacked out rear sights, the notch is the window that I look through.
I can’t thank you enough. It isn’t often n this business that you receive such a thought provoking idea on an old, old topic that you thought you had whipped. Learning is the best fun.
Excellent video on the Herron sighting innovation. and Ashton and Tim do a great job of demonstrating this principal. I’ve employed in my training and found it very beneficial!
Can't agree more, but if I may, I will add that in my home defense class, I usually taught my students your weapon lights/laser/trigger finger is pointing where your bullet will most likely go. You won't have time to find your sight at all not even bringing up your normal firing height. We also teach students to use low rise ready for direct point and shoot, without aiming at all, in a classic 21 feet scenario. Weapon light in home defense is sometimes more important than tritium and red dot sights.
Damn how close are these guys shooting?? I do like the sights printed on transparencies. That's what I need to print for my wife and kids for teaching. At less that at 7 yards what are sights?? I like Rob Pincus' concept of "Balance of Speed and Precision". For beginners, learn to shoot at 15 yds, get good by shooting at 25 and then get fast by shooting at 7. In real life, learn the Balance of Speed and Precision.
That's the key. If we're inside 10y (probably the majority of self-defense & certainly most training) this holds true. It's also a contributing factor why most people can't hit the target *stand* beyond 15y.
@@AOMartialArts in that case... lodge your barrel in between two ribs and gently squeeze off a round. They also talk about bad grip and shooting low left. So we are shooting a
I know these guys!! In fact, I was at the same class given by Tim Herron. Tim is a fantastic instructor, highly recommend. These are good guys and enjoyed taking the class with them.
I bought a red dot before I even owned my first firearm, so I started on a HS509T. ...But going back & learning on iron sights is a fun challenge at the range.
I've seen this taught, forgot by who, but it has helped me practice my low ready shooting. Yep, don't worry about exact dot placement, but have the front site anywhere within the back sites and you'll hit the target and save precious time.
I've been shooting 20 years and these men are GENIUS. The "iron sights whisper, dots scream" section is absolutely spot on. I became a much better shooter after using a red dot, and that was because it changed my grip and stabilized my mechanical movement during the shot. Everything they are saying ties in together. They've nailed this and I wish more instructors taught this. Honestly this should become a new standard for pistol shooting.
This is a really informative way of explaining the way I’ve been instinctually aiming my whole life! When shooting silhouette targets, I always tended to aim with the rear sight first and then bringing the front post into view. Because at that point, all I’m practicing is hitting generally in the center mass area. Sure, when I’m shooting for precision, I’m focusing more on exactly where the front post is, how my breathing is, just exactly how smooth my trigger pull is, but if I’m practicing self/home defense shooting at distances under 25 yards, this is how I get myself on target. I’ve always found pistol iron sights to be very easy to use for that reason, which is why I’ve never considered moving to a red dot for my handguns, whereas I have one on my rifle. Those are some really good instructors right there, I’d love to take a class with them someday.
That's actually how I use irons because I was thought to shoot by my dad who was raised in an army home and served himself, but he never told me which sight to focus in
Thanks for sharing, Chris! I appreciate their practical approach to sight alignment and I'm reminded of the old saying that perfect is the enemy of good.
Wow, I actually noticed what they were talking about at our range session last night. No matter where that front site was within the windshield of the rear sight, as long as it was on the target, I was getting very satisfying hits. Thanks for teaching this very old dog a new trick.
One thing that helped me improve with irons was actually becoming adept with a dot. My carry gun I have an optic mounted and my nightstand gun (which previously had an optic) I returned to irons. Having to relearn irons after a long time only using dots, I've found I'm way faster and more accurate shooting it at regular handgun distances with a target focus, like I had a dot on it, than focusing on the front sight. Plus, when I focus on front sight, my target splits which can make it hard to tell what I'm shooting at. At longer distances I'm sure I'd need to focus on the front sight more.
A little different view for older eyes. From over 20 years of competition shooting and being VERY good but not great, I found it is easiest for me to use the front sight since it is closer to the target. Not so much "focused" on the sight but somewhat "observing" the front sight on where I wish to hit. I don't even think about the rear sight. Was the rear sight there? I could not tell you, but I shot the match without any misses. The exception to that is shooting at targets less than 5 yards. Then I use the entire rear of the frame and and it gives me very fast shots with adequate accuracy. It is natural to almost center the "target area" on top of the frame.
Thanks. I learned something. I hadn't been introduced to the "see what you need to see" meme, but I did train in the Applegate point shooting system. I astounded my trainers at the 7-meter rapid-fire event by finishing up that stage before most of the line got off their first shot. The contract was in the Middle East protecting a US Army logistics center in a peacetime environment prior to 9-11. Worse, I got 100% score over the entire course that included a 35-meter stage. No big deal because I routinely fired at 50 meters and when I could I shot my pistol at 100 meters. I scored 100% with both rifle and pistol twice on consecutive days and the trainers wanted to know the name of my shooting school. That incident was thirty years ago. The entire class, instructors and students, stared at me in disbelief. My technique varied depending on the distance and on how much time I had because "one size does not fit all." Now if I had to pop bottlecaps with a pistol at 7 meters, I would need to SLOW down and use a fine sight picture. I'd also need to determine where my pistol put bullets in relation to what the sights told me. Anyway, I conducted much of the small arms training for the contract (M9 pistol, M16A2 rifle and M60 machine gun) and got excellent results as measured by qualification scores. Thanks again--despite experience, I learned something new.
Some people, at close range, call this "metal on meat". If the middle of the bad guys chest encompasses the silhouette of your pistol slide you can make the shot. These are close range speed tactics. As you get farther back ...say 15 yards you have to focus much more on sight alignment and slow down to press off the shot. In IDPA many people tend to miss far away steel because they hose down easy targets up close then wont slow down and carefully press the shot at 25 yds. Same with close head shots or non threats covering the target.....sometimes pistol shooting is like morse code.....up close is dot dot dot.....farther out is dash dash dash. You can also play with your head position when you are close up. You can get used to the image of the pistol if your eyes are raised up off the sights then up close you dont have to take the time to get full sight alignment behind your eye. Think about this. Baseballs, golf balls, and basket balls dont have sights on them and yet people can put them in very precise places. Its muscle memory and consistent draw stroke dynamics. If your draw and alignment of your arm bones are consistent you will hit consistently up close without the sights.
It's crazy this is exactly what I did a week ago and shot better than I ever have, with consistent improvement across several platforms. It felt heretical (at first) because it went against everything my professional training has taught me. BUT IT WORKS! I'm glad I saw this video as Confirmation. Makes me wonder what other edges can be smoothed out in my training.
Larry Vickers had a training tip a while back that was similar to this. It was point shooting with less focus on sight picture (he actually taped over the sights), more focus on the “steering wheel and pedals” concept. It works great for close in defensive shooting, especially in low light. Thanks Chris.
This is a variant on the old "balance a penny on the front sight" training trick. That is meant to show you that the front sight wiggling around a bit won't really affect your accuracy. At "inside your house" pistol range, if you can see the front sight in the rear sight's box (or the three dots are mostly lined up), and the penny hasn't fallen off, you'll get a hit. The penny is good for teaching trigger control, too. If your trigger pull is jerky or not straight back, you'll drop the penny.
I trained with Tim Herron in 2018 and this sounds a lot like the conversation and block of instruction that he gave during that class. He was a performance driving instructor, it’s easy to see how he came to correlating the concepts of performance driving and shooting as it pertains to vision. Kind of shitty that he was given so little due credit and was glossed over, and that you’re leading folks to believe this was your original idea/concept…
I watched a video with Rob Letham ( spelling?) and he discussed the importance of Trigger Control over Sight Picture. After many years of shooting and teaching Marksmanship that concept made my " Light Come On". It really does go back to the basics that I learned in The Marines. Sight Alinement, Tigger Control , Natural Point of Aim. This video was another light coming on event. The analogy if the Windshield, SteerI ng Wheel and Gas & Brake Pedals. HIT HOME VERY NICE! Salute to You'll for making it so very simple. Great Work to you all!!!!!!! Semper Fi
Always good to go back to basics and think about how to better explain what to do for newbies. I always explain that lining up a perfect shot is good, but in a defensive situation, time matters, and you can sacrifice SOME accuracy for a faster shot--a perfect shot won't help you if you took too long to make it and you don't get a chance to.
@@boomee78 we were. And we will be back in Virginia teaching Performance Pistol (which goes well beyond what we can cover in this video) on June 17th and 18th just outside Winchester, Va.
One of my tricks was one shot practice. Raise, shot and lower. Keep repeating. Till you are able to hit paper every time. Then do this and step it back. 10 feet, 15 feet and keep going. Then bring it back to 10 and do double tap while still raising, shot and lower. You need to practice. These guys do a good explanation for defensive use.
OK, using myself as a example I have to say that I'm 79 years old and While working, I carried a Glock 19 as my Duty Weapon and I had to qualify every year with m Firearm! Having said this and I'm Not Bragging but I managed to Qualify Top of My Class, every Year! I managed this by following what I learned in my early training on how to use my Handgun Sights with relation to Trigger Control and Grip Control! At my age, I can No Longer shoot the Larger Caliber handguns because of Nerve Damage in both my hands, so I had to switch to 22LR or 22 Magnum Handguns and now I shoot just as good or better at my LGR Every week here in Sunny Florida! Yes I still use the method of "Focus on Front Sight"! For Me the Basic Principals of Shooting has Not Changed and using myself as a prime example works Great All the Time! Thank you for this Video and I hope it helps some New Shooters and does not Confuse them! Good Luck
Really well done video. This is what I've been teaching students for years- not the windshield analogy, but I do like that. But that if someone is shooting poorly- 98 out of 100 it isn't the sights that they're messing up. Occasionally, and I mean RARELY, they forgot to keep the gun level, when focusing on the front sight, and they make more of a triangle- and shoot high. And I would even argue stance doesn't matter. I can shoot accurately standing on one leg- I might not be able to shoot rapidly, accurately, on one leg... but slowly... sure..... Grip, trigger, follow through.... that's what makes accurate shots, with grip being the most important.
Tim's the man. He has his own channel, "Tim Herron Shooting." It's a fantastic resource for anyone who wants to get better. You'll be getting information from a bonafide USPSA Grandmaster for free. The only thing you need is discipline and time.
Great video! Their explanation lands in the learning zone! The trainee learning is the purpose of training! This approach was effective for my understanding! Good job guys AND the trainer that clarified for you!
Ive always hated the idea of "covering up the target with the frint sight" especially when it came to pistol shooting. So what I've sort of trained on doing ( for close to medium ranges) is drop the rear notch and stick the front post slightly above the top of the rear notch, and ive found by putting this at the bottom edge of what im shooting i can clearly see the target, the impacts, and have quick follow up shots. Basically this concept but i was only limiting myself to the front post being raised above the rear notch. I absolutely love this concept theyre teaching!
This was a really neat video and something I will use when helping folks. I really like the vehicle control analogies. (windshield, brakes/ gas, steering wheel)
As a self-taught guy who is a fairly good shot. I didn't realize that this is what I do naturally. Great explanation! I have had people ask me to show them how I shoot so well and I honestly had no clue what to tell them. This will help me be better prepared next time if someone asks.
Fact: You don't need sights on a gun for engagements within 15 feet. And with enough practice you can hit a man size target at that same distance with your eyes closed/in the dark by simply getting muscle memory and audio orientation. Having said all of that I do have all of my guns with either red dots or night sights for time or distance allowing shots.
This was a fantastic video! First really novel discussion of hand gun firing theory in decades. I don't live near these guys, but I can certainly apply what they're saying. Awesome!
Holy shit! this is exactly how I've been shooting for years and I could never explain it properly! especially for fast shooting at defensive ranges. I always told my buddies that I just get the target in the box (window) and ride the lightning till the mag is empty.
With a thumbs forwards grip and a good amount of hours on the same platform, you can shoot without using sights at all out to about 10, maybe 15, yards when shooting a human attacker. You just point with your front thumb and shoot when it feels right. But if you need more accuracy (due to distance or small target), this is great advice.
Very interesting perspective...what's more interesting is that, while watching this ,I just realize that there where many instances when I actually used that as they are explaining it ,just that i wasn't aware of it ...and,further more,distance depending, shooting your gun while using only the back plate is tight to this same perspective. Thank you for putting this video @LuckyGunner
That makes a lot of sense. I did use of force scenario training and thus was using a firearm that is not mine nor used to. Yet, the main difference was that I had a better purchase on the grip and held it better than I do my own firearm. I had more accurate shots, and every time I hit my target was because the rear sight had the target inside of it, while the front was wobbling around.
I believe this phenomenon is called ‘natural point of aim.’ From five yards or less a good grip and good stance equals a good hit, even with your eyes closed.
I've always used the rear sights as the primary adjustment of barrel alignment and it has worked really well for me. Put the dot (front sight) on the target and move the rear of the gun to fi e tune it. Leverage means I have finer control and the muzzle is pointing in the right direction longer.
Thanks for the video. I don't know how much this would work for me or anyone else. I appreciate hearing the concept explained even if I'm not sure how much I could use it consciously. To follow the driving analogy, I agree that we don't need to see minute details through the windshield to drive a car safely and effectively in our day to day lives. Looking through the windshield normally and operating the steering wheel and pedals will keep someone in the proper lane and going forward well enough to reach a destination. I've never done any trick driving, but I wonder whether everything changes for people who are trying to perform precise stunt driving. Maybe success in that area requires them to take precise sightings based on parts of the car and visual cues on the course. The whole thing might be very different for a NASCAR driver. In the same way, I could see where there's a difference between self-defense shooting and precision shooting. Someone who follows these principles will likely put the bullets safely on the attacker in a self-defense scenario. As long as there isn't over-penetration, no bullets are going to go past the attacker and endanger bystanders downrange. If one needs to make a precise shot through the neck into the spine with a .22LR or similar low-power round, then one would need to get perfect alignment in the way that we normally think. If one just needs to put a 9mm round on the breastbone, this technique might work well. Along these lines, I've spent part of the winter trying to get better with a pistol that I bought fifteen years ago, never traded, and never could shoot all that well. I wasn't terrible, but I never felt that I was shooting good groups. When I bought the pistol and when I first tried it, my eyesight was good enough to focus on the front sight pretty easily. I've now reached the point where I can tilt my head backwards and see the front sight a little more clearly with my reading prescription of my bifocals as opposed to the distance prescription that I see when I hold my head steady. In trying to become better with this pistol this winter, I've pressed a fist-sized depression into a snow drift and shot from about twelve to fifteen yards. I haven't worried about getting a perfect, traditional sight picture. I don't try to shoot all that quickly either. I try to reach a good compromise, and I'm hitting the depression most of the time. While I wasn't consciously thinking about this technique, I realize that I was to some extent following this idea.
Good point...! at 7 yards too many folks want to take all day to shoot that 2 inch group...our happiness expands out to 4-5 inches (that horizontally, vertically add another inch or two), done before those folks get their second round off...see the target, send the round downrange, or, shoot first, hit first, for the win...under duress most folks will actually miss that first shot if in a big hurry, and more likely hit with subsequent shots...we don't get to plan how to engage any and every target, the bad guy will always have the initiative...we can practice at 7 yards, the more likely range 7 feet, which puts us back at shoot first, hit first...
When I was a wee lad .. my father (army) and the boy scouts taught me how to shoot.. listening to this explanation with different words is same method I was taught..
Jeff Cooper said: the sights are to check your alignment with the target. At typical self defence distances you don't need the sights if you get the rest right.
Just an observation, not a critique. Been shooting since 5 (1957), competing since 18, LEO at 25 and agency/academy instructor at 35. Traditional sight alignment training, target-focus training (point shooting), combinations of each, some at highly prestigious training venues. Isosceles, Weaver and everything in between. RDS training/shooting, both handgun and long gun. Never once heard the phrase "see what you need to see". In our academy classes we basically teach what they're going for. Perfect sight alignment not critical for combat effective shots at close range unless you're going for the eyeball-behind-the-hostage's-head shot. Becomes more important as distance increases. Or deploy a rifle.
Always learning! Another person's perception leading to question one's self and perhaps integrate this into one's own training. Practice, practice, practice I have now reached a point where I am more naturally "point shooting" My gun presentation naturally arrived to centre mass or designated point and without almost a hard reference I send the rounds. Great input.
I see what's being said. As a person with a bit of anatomical understanding, I would rather be as precise as possible with my aim. However, as a person with a bit of physiological understanding, I must realize that if I am considering the horrific need to shoot an attacker in order to survive, I will be facing a tidal wave of adrenaline and extreme time pressure. This video explains some geometric tolerances.
"Most of the shooting errors that we see have very little to do with sighting, [and have much more to do with grip". Yup. Sights aren't hard; it's keeping the gun rock steady while you press the trigger that trips people up. Had to help a guy at the range with this just last week. He wasn't gripping as hard as he should, and was pushing his shots low and right (he was a leftie). I grab his gun and center punch the target on the first shot. Difference being, I grip the gun as if it's going to explode if I don't, while he wasn't really doing anything with his support hand. The car analogy is a much more refined version of something John Correia of Active Self Protection offers: "Grip is the master, sights set the pace, trigger is the servant." I've always hated it because it doesn't feel intuitive in the least. But I can support this car analogy.
Great principles. John Lovell also shared a quick target acquisition tip. may not be as fast as today's vid though, but i found it works really well for me. instead of trying to float the front dot in the rear notch just focus putting an upper corner of the front dot mount level with one of the upper corners on the rear notch. for me it's quick and easy.
I heard Tim Herron say something like this on a podcast. It's basically what I do, bisect the target with the rear sight, and when the front sight alignment is acceptable (for target size and distance) *yeet.*
I can shoot very accurately by NOT focusing on my sights, by focusing on my target and keeping the sights blurry so I can vaguely see that the sights are aligned, but very clearly see where my sights are indexed.
Hmm, I should really get those stencils (projectors slides, transparent, whatever they’re called) for my next class! Very good instruction here in this video!
I've always done more or less this because I've never been able to focus on the front sight and also see anything else. Glad to hear that I'm not a complete fool
This concept is why I love the Holosun optic because you can just use the large green circle without the dot and you become much faster and effective. This is partly due to the fact that you are not trying to lineup a tiny dot so you can focus on the important aspects of grip and trigger pull.
![The Best Revolver in the World [2020 Update]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/uBQuoBBIENM/mqdefault.jpg)
Good points!
hickok45 here
You been smokin some pot?
Big o7 to the most wholesome guntuber
Ringing gongs...
Life is good
"Mastery is an endless quest, but we can help you find proficiency" friggin love it. I've been shooting for years and I'm self taught. I've had to force myself out of bad habits. I'm new to competitive shooting but I don't really use my sights all that much. I'm much more concerned with other fundamentals.
Something to consider about bad habits are, do you have one or two that are working for you? Maybe just a little refinement is only needed to get you where you want to be..just my thoughts.
This is the single most helpful video I've ever seen on sight alignment.
Thanks
Amen!
I'm a R.O at my range and have been down this exact thought path. New shooters will obsess over a perfect sight picture and then jerk the trigger or have a bad grip or flinch the shot etc etc, and it's because it's the only thing they can visualise and the easiest thing to initially get to grips with when being taught. Someone can look like they have a good grip because they're copying what others are doing but they don't understand the mechanics around it to make it effective for them. Developing a good grip and trigger pull takes time and practice, a good sight picture is easy. I tell people not to concentrate on the sights, get an acceptable sight picture, sure, but a marginal sight picture with good fundamentals will beat a perfect sight picture with bad fundamentals any day. The sights are not why people hit waaay low and left but they reckon if they can concentrate that bit harder on the sights the shot will magically hit the center.
I got a question about grip since your a R.O. If you dont mind answering. Is grip more about trying to squeeze my palms towards each other on both sides of the pistol grip and less of using my left hand thumb as a gas pedal against the side of the pistol frame? Hope this makes sense.
"The sights are not why people hit waaay low and left but they reckon if they can concentrate that bit harder on the sights the shot will magically hit the center."
I feel people think like this because everyone keeps repeating front "sight focus." So logically one might think "I missed my shot because I didn't focus enough on the front sight." For me I feel focusing too much on the front sights makes me more shaky and makes me less accurate. I'll try this mindset next time I go to the range, but I know I need a lot of work on my grip, my hands feel swollen and painful after going to the range and my grip gets loose after almost every shot.
Wilson Combat has a Mas Ayoob video on YT where he goes over the different ways to grip a gun. He has been around for a long time, is calm, and explains and demonstrates along the way better than I can explain in words. Watch that video. Gripping a small j-frame vs a large revolver vs a micro semiauto or a service size semiauto may vary on several factors, mainly hand size. I have used at one time or another all the various ways to grip a gun over five decades. I have chosen my method based on my small hands and my particular firearm and what has given me repeatable success draw after draw and thousands upon thousands of rounds of practice. Same for stance.
@@Austin_180 I use more of a push pull technique. Pulling toward my body with my support hand and pushing with my hand holding the pistol. I haven’t really heard of squeezing the palms together. How much force you use depends. Too much force and you will start shaking, too little and the gun moves as you pull the trigger. You can play with it a little bit and find a happy medium. The push pull technique also helps with recoil control to get you back on target faster. I have heard several professional shooters say they grip it as hard as they can and with practice you will be able to increase the force you can apply and still be rock solid. This technique has worked really well with my students so give it a try and let me know how it works for you.
@@Austin_180 I'll start by saying I have no teaching qualifications, the R.Os job is primarily to ensure safety on the range. grip is one of those things that seems straightforward but there's a huge amount of tiny differences that can make a difference. Recommend the humble marksman deep dive on the thumbs forward grip, he's also got a separate excellent video on why you shoot low and left with a Glock. warrior poet has a good explanation with battle gnome on the two schools of thought on grip. Eric graufell, multiple IPSC world champ has explained he uses body mechanics more than brute force grip strength to control recoil but that's a different issue than the grip causing inaccurate shots. I also share Rob leathams view that when you start shooting at all quickly you ARE going to slap/jerk the trigger. The key is having a good enough grip for the jerking to make a minimal difference on the shot. Like with a lot of things there are many ways to skin a cat, general principles apply but the exact method will vary person to person. In general, strong front to back pressure on the strong hand combined with a strong support hand squeeze with elbows rotated out and both hands torqued inwards as if trying to touch both thumbs together is a good place to start. I spent a good few years changing my grip often and finding what works. Its unfortunately one of those things that for me anyway I can only half teach, the rest is up to the shooter. Good luck
When we trained with Tim Herron in 2019 his practice of driving the gun with the rear sight started us down the path of rethinking how we were using and teaching sights. If you never stop learning you never stop improving.
Took their shotgun class a few years ago. Awesome teachers, and great techniques
As an O.D. this introduction of vision and perception skills is sound. The concept of a window is frequently utilized in vision therapy both for regaining function and honing one’s abilities in a sports context.
I’m just a self taught old guy, these two guys are great teachers. My wife literally said, now I understand. Thank you so much for posting this! I say, squeeze the trigger, they say send it. My words, See the target in your rear sight and squeeze, don’t wait for the perfect picture, it may never come, not in self defense. I’m just a Nebraska homeboy, thanks for making sense of how I learned to shoot. Marksmanship at any distance with any weapon is the end result of practice.
My wife and I are fairly new to shooting. We are seniors and have been wanting to train ourselves for our protection. We have taken classes and go to the range at least monthly. I have gotten better but the wife has gotten crazy good. The problem has been that first shot or two in an emergency situation. We came up with a drill where you grab the gun off the table, drawing from a holster is not allowed, and take two shots in 3 seconds. Both of us have real problems with making effective shots in that time frame. This concept your trainers brought opened our eyes! We will be adding these ideas to our training. Thanks for the great video. Keep up the good work!
I also practice a similar emergency 2-round quick succession scenario at the range, usually with the target around 7 to 10 yards. For that distance, what I've found that has helped me the most to do that acceptably is just drawing over and over at home (no live ammo) to gain muscle memory of bringing the firearm to eye level and having the gun "instinctively" aimed at my target. I'm not worried about aligning or evein viewing the front OR rear sight. I just want to bring it up and hit mass quickly. What these guys are saying is somewhat similar...basically you don't need perfect aim, you just gotta have good enough aim to hit mass.
@@paulcallaway71 Yes, and the key point in this video is that the alignment of the rear sight is a really good first indicator. The rest (such as the view of the front sight in the rear sight) is finer tuning.
Actually the main point of the video is that the grip is the main thing that determines accuracy, for very many reasons.
Dry fire and laser trainers are great ways to train at home without spending money on ammunition and it will help you train drawing in a safe way.
@@jacobstaten2366 Good points. Thanks
When I practice shooting for defensive combat. I use one hand ( right or wrong ) to put the weapon on target and my other hand to work the trigger and offer very little support. My drill has always been 3 shots when I pull the trigger so if I'm going to shoot defensively my target gets three rounds consecutively. One problem I have with instructors is that they want you to shoot at a distance of 5 to 10 yards. I believe that's impractical unless someone is training to shoot across a parking lot. If Im just plinking and having some fun I'll shoot 25 or 50 yards, but in a real domestic combat situation the distance is going to be 3 yards or less. That's under ten feet. That's the distance I believe people should be shooting at to simulate the true distance in a self defense situation, and it could be as little as 3 or 4 feet. At those distances you don't need sights. I say forget about eye level sighting unless you want to shoot targets. Try not to make things hard for yourself. Taking 2 shots in 3 seconds is a long time unless it's just target shooting. I practice groups of 3 shots, so it's bam, bam, bam, and then a brief pause to see my grouping, and make any adjustments, and then continue. Be wary of instructors saying things like I've been a police officer for 20 years, and I was in the military. That doesn't mean anything to me. If you're thinking home protection. Always have a plan. If you don't have a plan you're going to be part of someone else's plan. One last thing. Don't make the mistake of trying to find one gun thats going to work for both of you, because that doesn't exist. You're going to have something that suites you best and she'll have something that works best for her. Anyway, keep your gun well lubricated and play safe.
This is interesting. When I switched from irons to a red dot one issue I had was I was waiting a long time for the red dot to settle perfectly in the window. I realized that this was costing me speed on targets where I could still get an acceptable hit even with the red dot not nearly as centered in that window as I might have thought. Basically I needed to learn what I “needed to see”. It was sort of an odd situation as I had spent time doing reflexive shooting courses based on the teachings of people like Bob Taubert where we shot with the sights entirely removed from the pistol and still got very effective hits up close by focusing on our grips and body positioning. Over time I had forgotten those lessons.
What I found even more interesting is now when I go back to shoot irons I find I apply the same practices, that of using my rear sight as a window, like described here, and as long as I get the front sight in that window I know I can press the shot (like they cover here the size of the target zone matters). This ended up improving my iron sight shooting, too.
I had a very similar experience when I switched to red dots. My standard of "acceptable sight picture" got much higher because I was now able to refine it much more than I was with irons, and at close range, it was slowing me down. At longer ranges, where I would have to refine my sight picture regardless of the dot or irons, the dot was faster and more accurate. I love shooting both but it is something than needs to be considered when switching--many think a dot will make everything better without the need to train on the new hardware.
@@locomike102 valuable insight from you and Zero. I just got a Holosun 507K green dot for my P365X that I'm going to zero and shoot for the first time this weekend. I feel fairly proficient with irons but I think the dot will take some getting used to.
That's why I only stick with iron sights.
@@PerceptionVsReality333 me eventually getting better with the dot and seeing that doing so also improved my shooting with irons is why you choose to stick with irons?
Don’t look at the red dot, look at the target and impose the dot onto the target.
These gentlemen seem like an excellent teaching team. They compliment each other nicely. And the way they take over explaining without stepping on eachothers toes is impressive IMHO
Very nicely explained. I was a world class skeet shooter and taught and coached many people so I know the skills I need to teach. Now that I shoot pistol almost exclusively this is an excellent way to teach how to shoot. The most important thing with a handgun is hand control and bringing your gun back to target after each shot. If you want an excellent visual aid, shoot a gun with a laser. It’s shocking how much your hand moves without recoil and more shock with recoil.
Saw this technique about a year ago on the Humble Marksman - "How to use Iron Sights efficiently | Tim Herron Interview". If you watch this video, then you need to follow up with that video and get the intel straight from the horse's mouth. You will be glad you did!
With that said this video provides a lot more detail in regards to defensive shooting. I also agree that grip is often the primary reason for failing to hit the target.
Thank you! I truly appreciate that!
You mean Tim knows this and they butchered it to be like what we came up with i mean stole 😂
Great to see these guys get some screen time. Their classes are well worth it. 👍👊
I'm glad you put this out and they're not wrong. However, Brian Enos talks about this in his 1990 "Practical Shooting" publication. The knowledge of using sights in different ways has been out for over 30 years but is often overlooked.
Finally! Someone that makes sense about using the rear sight as your focal point first. I’ve done that since I started shooting and it works. I’ve heard all the “tacticool” kids say “hard front sight focus” crap, and it just doesn’t makes sense to me and it doesn’t work for me. Even though I used blacked out rear sights, the notch is the window that I look through.
I can’t thank you enough. It isn’t often n this business that you receive such a thought provoking idea on an old, old topic that you thought you had whipped. Learning is the best fun.
This is effectively what we do in PRS, although you'll hear it referred to as 'embrace the wobble.'
Excellent video on the Herron sighting innovation. and Ashton and Tim do a great job of demonstrating this principal. I’ve employed in my training and found it very beneficial!
Can't agree more, but if I may, I will add that in my home defense class, I usually taught my students your weapon lights/laser/trigger finger is pointing where your bullet will most likely go. You won't have time to find your sight at all not even bringing up your normal firing height. We also teach students to use low rise ready for direct point and shoot, without aiming at all, in a classic 21 feet scenario. Weapon light in home defense is sometimes more important than tritium and red dot sights.
Damn how close are these guys shooting?? I do like the sights printed on transparencies. That's what I need to print for my wife and kids for teaching. At less that at 7 yards what are sights?? I like Rob Pincus' concept of "Balance of Speed and Precision". For beginners, learn to shoot at 15 yds, get good by shooting at 25 and then get fast by shooting at 7. In real life, learn the Balance of Speed and Precision.
That's the key. If we're inside 10y (probably the majority of self-defense & certainly most training) this holds true.
It's also a contributing factor why most people can't hit the target *stand* beyond 15y.
Have them play call of duty
They say exactly that in the video: for DEFENSIVE PURPOSES which translates to 7yds or less. In that case, this explanation is spectacular.
@@AOMartialArts in that case... lodge your barrel in between two ribs and gently squeeze off a round. They also talk about bad grip and shooting low left. So we are shooting a
I know these guys!! In fact, I was at the same class given by Tim Herron. Tim is a fantastic instructor, highly recommend. These are good guys and enjoyed taking the class with them.
Love this. Jibes perfectly with Rob Latham’s priceless clip, “Aiming is useless!” Transformational wisdom here, clearly explained. THANK YOU
This interview should have been with Tim Herron. Its the material he has been teaching for years.
I bought a red dot before I even owned my first firearm, so I started on a HS509T. ...But going back & learning on iron sights is a fun challenge at the range.
I've seen this taught, forgot by who, but it has helped me practice my low ready shooting. Yep, don't worry about exact dot placement, but have the front site anywhere within the back sites and you'll hit the target and save precious time.
I've been shooting 20 years and these men are GENIUS. The "iron sights whisper, dots scream" section is absolutely spot on. I became a much better shooter after using a red dot, and that was because it changed my grip and stabilized my mechanical movement during the shot. Everything they are saying ties in together. They've nailed this and I wish more instructors taught this. Honestly this should become a new standard for pistol shooting.
This is a really informative way of explaining the way I’ve been instinctually aiming my whole life! When shooting silhouette targets, I always tended to aim with the rear sight first and then bringing the front post into view. Because at that point, all I’m practicing is hitting generally in the center mass area. Sure, when I’m shooting for precision, I’m focusing more on exactly where the front post is, how my breathing is, just exactly how smooth my trigger pull is, but if I’m practicing self/home defense shooting at distances under 25 yards, this is how I get myself on target. I’ve always found pistol iron sights to be very easy to use for that reason, which is why I’ve never considered moving to a red dot for my handguns, whereas I have one on my rifle. Those are some really good instructors right there, I’d love to take a class with them someday.
That's actually how I use irons because I was thought to shoot by my dad who was raised in an army home and served himself, but he never told me which sight to focus in
Wow really good info. Coincidentally I was just thinking about buying fiber optic sights for my m&p shield 9mm
Thanks for sharing, Chris! I appreciate their practical approach to sight alignment and I'm reminded of the old saying that perfect is the enemy of good.
Wow, I actually noticed what they were talking about at our range session last night. No matter where that front site was within the windshield of the rear sight, as long as it was on the target, I was getting very satisfying hits. Thanks for teaching this very old dog a new trick.
One thing that helped me improve with irons was actually becoming adept with a dot. My carry gun I have an optic mounted and my nightstand gun (which previously had an optic) I returned to irons. Having to relearn irons after a long time only using dots, I've found I'm way faster and more accurate shooting it at regular handgun distances with a target focus, like I had a dot on it, than focusing on the front sight. Plus, when I focus on front sight, my target splits which can make it hard to tell what I'm shooting at. At longer distances I'm sure I'd need to focus on the front sight more.
A little different view for older eyes.
From over 20 years of competition shooting and being VERY good but not great, I found it is easiest for me to use the front sight since it is closer to the target. Not so much "focused" on the sight but somewhat "observing" the front sight on where I wish to hit. I don't even think about the rear sight. Was the rear sight there? I could not tell you, but I shot the match without any misses.
The exception to that is shooting at targets less than 5 yards. Then I use the entire rear of the frame and and it gives me very fast shots with adequate accuracy. It is natural to almost center the "target area" on top of the frame.
Thanks. I learned something. I hadn't been introduced to the "see what you need to see" meme, but I did train in the Applegate point shooting system. I astounded my trainers at the 7-meter rapid-fire event by finishing up that stage before most of the line got off their first shot. The contract was in the Middle East protecting a US Army logistics center in a peacetime environment prior to 9-11. Worse, I got 100% score over the entire course that included a 35-meter stage. No big deal because I routinely fired at 50 meters and when I could I shot my pistol at 100 meters. I scored 100% with both rifle and pistol twice on consecutive days and the trainers wanted to know the name of my shooting school. That incident was thirty years ago. The entire class, instructors and students, stared at me in disbelief. My technique varied depending on the distance and on how much time I had because "one size does not fit all." Now if I had to pop bottlecaps with a pistol at 7 meters, I would need to SLOW down and use a fine sight picture. I'd also need to determine where my pistol put bullets in relation to what the sights told me. Anyway, I conducted much of the small arms training for the contract (M9 pistol, M16A2 rifle and M60 machine gun) and got excellent results as measured by qualification scores. Thanks again--despite experience, I learned something new.
Some people, at close range, call this "metal on meat". If the middle of the bad guys chest encompasses the silhouette of your pistol slide you can make the shot.
These are close range speed tactics. As you get farther back ...say 15 yards you have to focus much more on sight alignment and slow down to press off the shot. In IDPA many people tend to miss far away steel because they hose down easy targets up close then wont slow down and carefully press the shot at 25 yds. Same with close head shots or non threats covering the target.....sometimes pistol shooting is like morse code.....up close is dot dot dot.....farther out is dash dash dash.
You can also play with your head position when you are close up. You can get used to the image of the pistol if your eyes are raised up off the sights then up close you dont have to take the time to get full sight alignment behind your eye.
Think about this. Baseballs, golf balls, and basket balls dont have sights on them and yet people can put them in very precise places. Its muscle memory and consistent draw stroke dynamics. If your draw and alignment of your arm bones are consistent you will hit consistently up close without the sights.
This is a great explanation of defensive shooting
It's crazy this is exactly what I did a week ago and shot better than I ever have, with consistent improvement across several platforms. It felt heretical (at first) because it went against everything my professional training has taught me. BUT IT WORKS! I'm glad I saw this video as Confirmation. Makes me wonder what other edges can be smoothed out in my training.
Larry Vickers had a training tip a while back that was similar to this. It was point shooting with less focus on sight picture (he actually taped over the sights), more focus on the “steering wheel and pedals” concept. It works great for close in defensive shooting, especially in low light. Thanks Chris.
Chris Baker is one of the smartest guys in the community. he is the epitome of the thinking man's approach to shooting
This is a variant on the old "balance a penny on the front sight" training trick. That is meant to show you that the front sight wiggling around a bit won't really affect your accuracy. At "inside your house" pistol range, if you can see the front sight in the rear sight's box (or the three dots are mostly lined up), and the penny hasn't fallen off, you'll get a hit. The penny is good for teaching trigger control, too. If your trigger pull is jerky or not straight back, you'll drop the penny.
I trained with Tim Herron in 2018 and this sounds a lot like the conversation and block of instruction that he gave during that class.
He was a performance driving instructor, it’s easy to see how he came to correlating the concepts of performance driving and shooting as it pertains to vision.
Kind of shitty that he was given so little due credit and was glossed over, and that you’re leading folks to believe this was your original idea/concept…
Fantastic, this just blew my mind
I watched a video with Rob Letham ( spelling?) and he discussed the importance of Trigger Control over Sight Picture. After many years of shooting and teaching Marksmanship that concept made my " Light Come On".
It really does go back to the basics that I learned in The Marines. Sight Alinement, Tigger Control , Natural Point of Aim.
This video was another light coming on event. The analogy if the Windshield, SteerI ng Wheel and Gas & Brake Pedals. HIT HOME VERY NICE!
Salute to You'll for making it so very simple. Great Work to you all!!!!!!!
Semper Fi
Always good to go back to basics and think about how to better explain what to do for newbies.
I always explain that lining up a perfect shot is good, but in a defensive situation, time matters, and you can sacrifice SOME accuracy for a faster shot--a perfect shot won't help you if you took too long to make it and you don't get a chance to.
Chris, thanks for highlighting Tim and Ash. Just got this a bit at their Red Pill pistol one day in Culpepper.
He was in VA?
@@boomee78 we were. And we will be back in Virginia teaching Performance Pistol (which goes well beyond what we can cover in this video) on June 17th and 18th just outside Winchester, Va.
@TCInVA if i can get leave im there
Sounds like some good old combat accuracy. You don’t have to be a world record shooter to stop the threat.
This might have been one of the best instructions I have come across in a long time. Thank you for this content.
Pretty great, right?
One of my tricks was one shot practice.
Raise, shot and lower.
Keep repeating.
Till you are able to hit paper every time.
Then do this and step it back.
10 feet, 15 feet and keep going.
Then bring it back to 10 and do double tap while still raising, shot and lower.
You need to practice.
These guys do a good explanation for defensive use.
These gentlemen's uses of analogy are excellent.
Excellent points about sight picture/movie that are rarely discussed.
OK, using myself as a example I have to say that I'm 79 years old and While working, I carried a Glock 19 as my Duty Weapon and I had to qualify every year with m Firearm! Having said this and I'm Not Bragging but I managed to Qualify Top of My Class, every Year! I managed this by following what I learned in my early training on how to use my Handgun Sights with relation to Trigger Control and Grip Control! At my age, I can No Longer shoot the Larger Caliber handguns because of Nerve Damage in both my hands, so I had to switch to 22LR or 22 Magnum Handguns and now I shoot just as good or better at my LGR Every week here in Sunny Florida! Yes I still use the method of "Focus on Front Sight"! For Me the Basic Principals of Shooting has Not Changed and using myself as a prime example works Great All the Time! Thank you for this Video and I hope it helps some New Shooters and does not Confuse them! Good Luck
Really well done video. This is what I've been teaching students for years- not the windshield analogy, but I do like that. But that if someone is shooting poorly- 98 out of 100 it isn't the sights that they're messing up. Occasionally, and I mean RARELY, they forgot to keep the gun level, when focusing on the front sight, and they make more of a triangle- and shoot high. And I would even argue stance doesn't matter. I can shoot accurately standing on one leg- I might not be able to shoot rapidly, accurately, on one leg... but slowly... sure..... Grip, trigger, follow through.... that's what makes accurate shots, with grip being the most important.
Tim's the man. He has his own channel, "Tim Herron Shooting." It's a fantastic resource for anyone who wants to get better. You'll be getting information from a bonafide USPSA Grandmaster for free. The only thing you need is discipline and time.
Thanks so much!
100%
The car driving analogy was brilliant and very eye opening. Great video keep up the good work!!!
Thank Tim Herron for that, it's his analogy.
Thanks
If you train for self-defense this is a GREAT advice I've had to find on my own after a lot of frustration... Excellent video, thank you!! 🙂
Really interesting and useful way to think about sight alignment!
Great video! Their explanation lands in the learning zone! The trainee learning is the purpose of training! This approach was effective for my understanding! Good job guys AND the trainer that clarified for you!
Ben Stoeger has been teaching this forever. Glad to see it’s catching on
Ive always hated the idea of "covering up the target with the frint sight" especially when it came to pistol shooting. So what I've sort of trained on doing ( for close to medium ranges) is drop the rear notch and stick the front post slightly above the top of the rear notch, and ive found by putting this at the bottom edge of what im shooting i can clearly see the target, the impacts, and have quick follow up shots. Basically this concept but i was only limiting myself to the front post being raised above the rear notch. I absolutely love this concept theyre teaching!
This was a really neat video and something I will use when helping folks. I really like the vehicle control analogies. (windshield, brakes/ gas, steering wheel)
As a self-taught guy who is a fairly good shot. I didn't realize that this is what I do naturally. Great explanation! I have had people ask me to show them how I shoot so well and I honestly had no clue what to tell them. This will help me be better prepared next time if someone asks.
Fact: You don't need sights on a gun for engagements within 15 feet. And with enough practice you can hit a man size target at that same distance with your eyes closed/in the dark by simply getting muscle memory and audio orientation.
Having said all of that I do have all of my guns with either red dots or night sights for time or distance allowing shots.
Nice bits of refined, no nonsense information presented well. My favorite kinds of vids
Wow! Love this instruction. To me, it's not new, but a great way to explain and work on mechanics.
Kinda depends on the distance and the accuracy you need. Different sight pictures for different needs.
Nice presentation of a unique perspective. Thanks for the tutorial. All the best! "The JJ" SW Penna.
This was a fantastic video! First really novel discussion of hand gun firing theory in decades. I don't live near these guys, but I can certainly apply what they're saying. Awesome!
Always enjoy the videos and You Chris.. very well done.. super cool content.. and thats why i have been watching for well over 5 years
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!
Holy shit! this is exactly how I've been shooting for years and I could never explain it properly! especially for fast shooting at defensive ranges. I always told my buddies that I just get the target in the box (window) and ride the lightning till the mag is empty.
With a thumbs forwards grip and a good amount of hours on the same platform, you can shoot without using sights at all out to about 10, maybe 15, yards when shooting a human attacker. You just point with your front thumb and shoot when it feels right. But if you need more accuracy (due to distance or small target), this is great advice.
Such a big fan of the info from Chris...I have learned a ton! This was a great "alternative" perspective.
This is really amazing! Thanks! I'll try this the next time I'm at the range
Very interesting perspective...what's more interesting is that, while watching this ,I just realize that there where many instances when I actually used that as they are explaining it ,just that i wasn't aware of it ...and,further more,distance depending, shooting your gun while using only the back plate is tight to this same perspective. Thank you for putting this video @LuckyGunner
Excellent. This will be required viewing for anyone I'm coaching pre-range or the message/method will be what they get at the range.
Really cool advice. Grip is absolutely the main determining factor in accuracy. it affects trigger pull, for example.
Great take on combat accuracy.
That makes a lot of sense. I did use of force scenario training and thus was using a firearm that is not mine nor used to. Yet, the main difference was that I had a better purchase on the grip and held it better than I do my own firearm. I had more accurate shots, and every time I hit my target was because the rear sight had the target inside of it, while the front was wobbling around.
I believe this phenomenon is called ‘natural point of aim.’ From five yards or less a good grip and good stance equals a good hit, even with your eyes closed.
I've always used the rear sights as the primary adjustment of barrel alignment and it has worked really well for me. Put the dot (front sight) on the target and move the rear of the gun to fi e tune it. Leverage means I have finer control and the muzzle is pointing in the right direction longer.
Thanks for the video.
I don't know how much this would work for me or anyone else. I appreciate hearing the concept explained even if I'm not sure how much I could use it consciously.
To follow the driving analogy, I agree that we don't need to see minute details through the windshield to drive a car safely and effectively in our day to day lives. Looking through the windshield normally and operating the steering wheel and pedals will keep someone in the proper lane and going forward well enough to reach a destination. I've never done any trick driving, but I wonder whether everything changes for people who are trying to perform precise stunt driving. Maybe success in that area requires them to take precise sightings based on parts of the car and visual cues on the course. The whole thing might be very different for a NASCAR driver.
In the same way, I could see where there's a difference between self-defense shooting and precision shooting. Someone who follows these principles will likely put the bullets safely on the attacker in a self-defense scenario. As long as there isn't over-penetration, no bullets are going to go past the attacker and endanger bystanders downrange. If one needs to make a precise shot through the neck into the spine with a .22LR or similar low-power round, then one would need to get perfect alignment in the way that we normally think. If one just needs to put a 9mm round on the breastbone, this technique might work well.
Along these lines, I've spent part of the winter trying to get better with a pistol that I bought fifteen years ago, never traded, and never could shoot all that well. I wasn't terrible, but I never felt that I was shooting good groups. When I bought the pistol and when I first tried it, my eyesight was good enough to focus on the front sight pretty easily. I've now reached the point where I can tilt my head backwards and see the front sight a little more clearly with my reading prescription of my bifocals as opposed to the distance prescription that I see when I hold my head steady. In trying to become better with this pistol this winter, I've pressed a fist-sized depression into a snow drift and shot from about twelve to fifteen yards. I haven't worried about getting a perfect, traditional sight picture. I don't try to shoot all that quickly either. I try to reach a good compromise, and I'm hitting the depression most of the time. While I wasn't consciously thinking about this technique, I realize that I was to some extent following this idea.
I was taught to misalign the sights (as an experiment) slightly to see the results. You can then learn what amount of "slop" you can live with.
Good point...! at 7 yards too many folks want to take all day to shoot that 2 inch group...our happiness expands out to 4-5 inches (that horizontally, vertically add another inch or two), done before those folks get their second round off...see the target, send the round downrange, or, shoot first, hit first, for the win...under duress most folks will actually miss that first shot if in a big hurry, and more likely hit with subsequent shots...we don't get to plan how to engage any and every target, the bad guy will always have the initiative...we can practice at 7 yards, the more likely range 7 feet, which puts us back at shoot first, hit first...
When I was a wee lad .. my father (army) and the boy scouts taught me how to shoot.. listening to this explanation with different words is same method I was taught..
Jeff Cooper said: the sights are to check your alignment with the target. At typical self defence distances you don't need the sights if you get the rest right.
Just an observation, not a critique. Been shooting since 5 (1957), competing since 18, LEO at 25 and agency/academy instructor at 35. Traditional sight alignment training, target-focus training (point shooting), combinations of each, some at highly prestigious training venues. Isosceles, Weaver and everything in between. RDS training/shooting, both handgun and long gun. Never once heard the phrase "see what you need to see". In our academy classes we basically teach what they're going for. Perfect sight alignment not critical for combat effective shots at close range unless you're going for the eyeball-behind-the-hostage's-head shot. Becomes more important as distance increases. Or deploy a rifle.
Appreciate the perspective that they are teaching.
Always learning!
Another person's perception leading to question one's self and perhaps integrate this into one's own training.
Practice, practice, practice
I have now reached a point where I am more naturally "point shooting"
My gun presentation naturally arrived to centre mass or designated point and without almost a hard reference I send the rounds.
Great input.
I see what's being said. As a person with a bit of anatomical understanding, I would rather be as precise as possible with my aim. However, as a person with a bit of physiological understanding, I must realize that if I am considering the horrific need to shoot an attacker in order to survive, I will be facing a tidal wave of adrenaline and extreme time pressure. This video explains some geometric tolerances.
"Most of the shooting errors that we see have very little to do with sighting, [and have much more to do with grip".
Yup. Sights aren't hard; it's keeping the gun rock steady while you press the trigger that trips people up. Had to help a guy at the range with this just last week. He wasn't gripping as hard as he should, and was pushing his shots low and right (he was a leftie). I grab his gun and center punch the target on the first shot. Difference being, I grip the gun as if it's going to explode if I don't, while he wasn't really doing anything with his support hand.
The car analogy is a much more refined version of something John Correia of Active Self Protection offers: "Grip is the master, sights set the pace, trigger is the servant." I've always hated it because it doesn't feel intuitive in the least. But I can support this car analogy.
Great principles. John Lovell also shared a quick target acquisition tip. may not be as fast as today's vid though, but i found it works really well for me. instead of trying to float the front dot in the rear notch just focus putting an upper corner of the front dot mount level with one of the upper corners on the rear notch. for me it's quick and easy.
I heard Tim Herron say something like this on a podcast. It's basically what I do, bisect the target with the rear sight, and when the front sight alignment is acceptable (for target size and distance) *yeet.*
Yes, I’ve been teaching this for years
@@TimHerronShooting hey brother I need you to bug Matt to do another gun gripes modcast
I can shoot very accurately by NOT focusing on my sights, by focusing on my target and keeping the sights blurry so I can vaguely see that the sights are aligned, but very clearly see where my sights are indexed.
@@nullface_YT Complete BS, you will NEVER see in a court of law the conversation of target focus to try and decide guilt!
Hmm, I should really get those stencils (projectors slides, transparent, whatever they’re called) for my next class! Very good instruction here in this video!
9:16 100% agree. 👌🏻 and excellent video all around!
I've always done more or less this because I've never been able to focus on the front sight and also see anything else. Glad to hear that I'm not a complete fool
Very nice analogies. Proficiency first then life-long quest toward the elusive mastery.
Best analogy, tips I have heard to date.
This concept is why I love the Holosun optic because you can just use the large green circle without the dot and you become much faster and effective. This is partly due to the fact that you are not trying to lineup a tiny dot so you can focus on the important aspects of grip and trigger pull.
A sightley alternate approach to sights. Great info! Couldn’t resist the pun.