Okay I am hooked. I want to see all of the suspension systems compared this way now. Might help picking out what I need based on my riding and not marketing bs.
Really excellent vid. I have ridden numerous four bar (Horst) designs, DWLink bikes (Pivot and Ibis), Yeti’s Switch Infinity and I own 2 Santa Cruz Bronsons (V2 with upper linkage and V3 with lower, and have demoed the new Tallboy and Hightower with lower linkages, although not the Mega yet). Most of what your math indicates should happen in the real world I would say is correct, with a few caveats. I have found that the anti squat on the lower link Santa Cruz bikes in the real word outperforms four bar as follows- they stay higher in their travel and have less pedal bob but stay planted providing better traction under pedal power and there is zero pedal kickback on big square edge hits. The four bar definitely loses some small bump compliance and ground hugging compared to the VPP, which if you then drop the psi in the shock to compensate you get more pedal bob. So with a four bar you have to choose- do want better ground hugging traction or less pedal bob, you can’t have both, whereas with the VPP you get both. Also, the pedal kickback difference is quite noticeable. IMO the four bar feels more like the old upper mounted VPP designs- they all had these same issues, especially the pedal kickback due to the chain lengthening. But the new lower link VPP fixes all of these issues. Also, IMO, the DW link bikes and Yeti switch infinity are even better than the VPP in all these areas, but the difference is closer than ever and probably not noticeable for a lot riders. Regarding downhill, the VPP is far superior to the four bar IMO- it is significantly more supple off the top providing better small bump ground hugging but there is no mid travel sag- in fact just the opposite- when you push the suspension into the mid travel to rail a bermed turn or preload for a jump, it is quite supportive. This is, I believe, why just about everyone who rides a VPP will tell you that they rail turns and feel poppy. And that to me is the magic of the lower link VPP, downhill they manage amazing traction and ground hugging over smaller chunder at high speed, yet still allow you to push into the suspension to rail a turn or boost a jump, making the bike both a bomber and playful and poppy. While IMO the DW link bikes and Yeti have a slight advantage up and under pedal power over the VPP, the VPP is better downhill compared to all of them, although I would take all of them over a four bar. Regarding blowing through the travel, what I will say about the lower link VPP is that every aggressive ride the little rubber ring is either at the end of the shock or off, indicating I have either used all the travel or blown through it. The VPP combined with the shock tuning will have you using all the travel, occasionally blowing through it. If you are used to older bikes where after even aggressive rides you often have a fair amount of travel left, this may seem shocking (no pun intended). But what I can also say is that even when I have blown through it I have seldom ever actually felt it, and was surprised at the end of my ride that I had blown through it. So in MTB review terminology- the VPP has no harsh bottom out- in other words there is no jarring bang at the end of the travel to mess up your landing- just smoothness. Why I went Santa Cruz- first, the price difference is not much- compare the Bronson with Trek Remedy, the Scott Genius, the Yeti SB 140, the Pivot Mach 5 etc. All of these brands, if you compare models with similar components, are all within a few hundred dollars of each other. So price is really not an issue if you compare Santa Cruz to other similar upscale brands that do not sell direct to consumer. Although you can save money on consumer direct brands. Which brings me to another reason I went Santa Cruz- dealer support and availability. SC dealers are everywhere in the US, so support no matter where I am is great. And their dealers seem to be the better LBSs with more mountain bike oriented workers. And Company support and warranty are excellent. And the most important reason- the feel when I rode it- the bikes are substantial and stiff as hell resulting in a machine that felt more like an extension of me than any other bike. Plus the sizing is great- at 5’10” I like a long bike and could and did size up to an XL with no problem because of the low standover. The Bronson just fit me better and overall felt better than other bike I had demoed, pedaled awesome, and absolutely felt like a dream on the downhills. And that really should be the deciding factor for a buyer. It is how does the suspension and geometry and the quality of the build and the components come together to feel when you swing a leg over it and hit the trails. Anyway, great vid and interesting to learn the engineering behind it and how it does really play out on the trail.
Great commentary on top of the great vpp explanation. Just got a HT3, still getting used to it after riding a norco sight 2017. While not a hardcore downhiller, the HT3 is so much more refined up and down. Plus w the norco was constantly having to play with the rear shock pressures and ultimately had to reach down and lock it out to prevent pedal bob. Not so w HT3. Never really have to touch the lockout.
I bought that same bike about two years ago Megatower C XL & I loved it. 160mm Fox 36 up front & rock shox ultimate deluxe plus in the rear. One hell of a bike. It's now 2022 & I'm now on my second 2020 Santa Cruz Megatower & this time I'm riding a large CC👍🏿👍🏿 170mm factory Fox 38 up front a factory DHX 2 coil in the rear & I'm 6ft 1in tall. My bike is now amazing to ride & better then before. I live in the PNW Oregon/Washington where we have some big mountains to climb with some amazing down hill to boot & this bike climbs up them all very well & with very little noticeable anti squat & that was with the air shock. Now with the coil I do notice some squat when climbing but not much to complain about. When I get to the top of these mountains & point that Megatower down hill that is where this bike comes alive. I do believe that this bike performs much better with a coil shock in the rear better then the air shock. But tuning that coil to your liking will take some time & homework. I'm not sure that I got it right but all I know is that my 2020 Megatower feels really good to ride🤘🏿
@@TrailPOV Thank you for the quick response, and especially the great work! In case it needs some votes, I would also be interested in a comparison of old vpp design (e.g. hightower lt) vs the new one.
Gosh, what a great video. I remember when Santa Cruz first came out.... they had a single pivot, and I would laugh because they bobbed so much climbing. At the time, I thought they were toys and never turn into a serious, highly engineered machine. Wrong I was. Thanks for this explanation. Now, I would consider buying.
It would be great if you kept an updated list of bikes ranked from best to worst depending on specific characteristics. A spreadsheet would be great. I think you've found a great video format here. Keep making these and you'll eventually become the go to guy for this stuff. Anytime anyone is looking to buy a new bike, they'll refer to these vids. Great stuff. Keep up the amazing work. Btw, it would be really cool if you could compare the full floater design from the 2018 Trek Remedy to the non full floater modern Trek Remedy models. I've always been curiuos about the ABP as well.
Thanks very much....glad you liked the videos. Interesting idea about the spreadsheet, I'll keep it in mind if I have some time. You're not the first to mention the Trek, but I'm waiting till I can organize something with a friend of mine to get a hold of one to ride.
Thanks for your video, after buy a megatower one friend of mine share me this video and I found why this bike it’s better than my transition scout 19, and his old horse link
Very much enjoying your suspension analyses videos. I believe you've overlooked a critical characteristic between the VPP (Megatower) and 4-bar-link (Scott Ransom) during you're summary. While your analyses shows the suspension to perform in a fairly similar manner in your 2D analyses, I suspect the VPP design has greater lateral and torsional stiffness making the bike track better in corners especially when the going gets rough. The solid VPP rear triangle also likely transfers bump energy to the shock more efficiently without flexing and twisting. The VPP rear triangle stiffness should also increase pedaling efficiency with less energy lost to a flexing and twisting of the rear triangle. The same type of lateral and torsional stiffness benefits should apply to DW link and the Yeti suspensions you've reviewed. Probably the only way to test for this would be to build a test jig that measures deflections while applying twisting forces to the rear axle while holding the main frame steady. The same type of test jig could probably be used to test the stiffness of forks.
Thanks very much. You are indeed correct that there will be stiffness differences between designs.....but without numbers I'd rather not jump to conclusions :)
Lovely engineering explanation since I'm looking for my next bike frame; been used to 4 bar linkages for quite some time on the Enduro and Trek bikes, but looking at an Intense Carbine frame which uses VPP derived tech.
Please please please do the hightower in XXL :). Loving your channel. And lets delve a little deeper into the maths than just the graphical plots 🙂. Interested to see how the anti-squat changes with gradient as CG shifts back.
1st time seeing your content. I remember seeing some content from an engineer I think his channel is alexxtr or something like that but he rarely does anything. He has some very interesting content on suspension. Anyway, hopefully you keep up these explanations of different suspension types and their characteristics.👍
Cool! I rode the Ransom and Megatower back to back and found them very different. The Ransom was very plush and smooth, and the Megatower bounced around a lot and felt like the rear wheel hung up on any square hit.
That's super interesting to hear. Might have something to do with the Megatower's anti-squat staying higher during the travel, or the shock tune being different. Always good to have real-world feedback. Thanks.
Trail POV The Megatower did have Fox suspension and the Ransom had Rockshox, but they were similar mid level caliber. I played around with the settings a lot and still found that to be the general feel to me. I didn't play with volume spacers though as they were demo bikes. The Fox stuff could have been pretty progressive.
Excellent stuff, Im still a huge fan of the VPP design, whats interesting is its been around for a very long time and wasn't until Santa Cruz got there hands on the patent after Litespeed went under that people started to take notice. IMHO its still the best all around design for the type of riding that I do, with great small bump compliance under braking with minimal "stinkbug effect." Your suspension info is very helpful and I like how you are including just how important shock choice can be depending on design and type of riding a person does. Thanks, keep up the great work.
Thanks a lot for the videos like this one!! I really enjoy them and find them useful to chose my new bike. I'd like to see one for the Mondraker's Zero suspension system, that uses also a VPP
Two more important things about VPP: 1) all bearings are installed in links which makes service extremely easy; 2) (goes to all virtual pivot point suspensions) front and rear triangles are single parts which makes them also easier to (dis)assemble and service.
Honestly they aren't really trying to win EWS Races at the moment, as they don't have a single consistent podium rider. They obviously focus on their downhill team the Syndicate, and that's one of the most winning teams in DH history on the same platform.
Love your videos. So much effort in these. Could you do one on Niner Rip 9 RDO? CVA suspension? Super curious how this suspension system compares to the competition. Thank you!
Excellent, well in-depth video. Keep ‘em coming. I would love to hear your opinion on the PROPAIN HUGENE suspension. It has an unusual design. Bike was named Bike of the Year amongst 10 others, by some magazine, I forgot which one. Thanks!
I have a megatower and can tell you that when pedaling the bike reacts very differently depending on how much you keep your weight on the seat. If I'm fully committed to weight on the seat there's no Bob. In fact, the lack of bob is actually a pain when doing some trails as it makes you feel like you're sitting too high on the bike.
Trail POV thanks. I just subscribed. These videos are absolutely amazing. I truly appreciate the hard work and research that you put into the suspension series.
I'd be curious to see how the Intense derivative of VPP that they use on the Carbine and the Tracer stacks up to the Santa Cruz. Love the videos, very informative!
Would be very interesting to see how some of the Intense/Jeff Steber designed Santa Cruz bikes compare to the new SC and JS tuned bikes now that they aren't collaborating so much.
@3:50 more air in this suspension does not result in less small bump compliance, specifically because the leverage curve is higher. the higher leverage curve makes the suspension more reactive in the lower air pressures before the shock is compressed.
Yup totally agree if you had to take friction out, but the extremely high shock pressures do result in the need for tighter seals to keep the pressure in resulting in more stiction
Thank you very much for the incredible video! Do you have an opinion on the Mondraker Zero Suspension system? Especially in comparison between the Superfoxy and the Megatower? Thanks!
Great, I have actually had a chance to ride this. You can really notice the small bump compliance (I am a heavy rider). I'm also facinated that the spring rate has a bigger effect then the leverage curve. Inifinity link or DW next?
Very nicely explained, but you talk about the price for the Megatower as it is more as the Scott Ransom?! They are identically priced here in Europe. In my opinion the big difference between the two are the 2kg while pedalling uphill. The Ransom about 13kg and the Meg about 15kg (with coil). I own a Megatower and my grilfriend a Ransom. Love both bikes.
How did you get your measurements for your analysis? Most bikes it's fairly straightforward and you can do it in linkage with a side profile pic of the bike. The new lower link Santa Cruz's tho are really hard because you can't see the pivot bolts, so curious where you got your measurements from. Fantastic videos btw. Good explanation and some of the best editing I've seen on any analysis like this ever, nice work!
Thanks very much. I base my measurement off CAD geometry diagrams of the side profiles of the bikes. Most side photos of bicycles move the pivots slightly due to the fish-eye effect of a lens so aren't as reliable and hide pivots as you say.
I would love to see a Comparison of the Santa Cruz Megatower and the V10... of course, the one is Enduro and the other a DH, but i would line to see the significant differences between them.👍🏻
thanks for the informative and unbiased technical analysis, can I conclude that all the latest santa cruz bikes that have the same design will have similar characteristics? or it will be vary by model since this was analysed based on megatower?
Unfortunately not all SC bikes will have same characteristics as each will be tailored to the discipline.....eg. XC, enduro, DH etc to ensure they perform as well as they can in the conditions they are designed for.
Thanks. I have a huge video idea for the Enduro but it might be a month or so before I attempt it as there have been a lot more requests for the Canyon so far.
@@ArturPereiraMTB Nice bike from what I've heard. If you check out my Patreon page there is a tier option to become a patron and select which bike I do next. Depending on if you're certain on the Enduro or just considering it might be an option to support me to get some hopefully valuable info #shameless-plug
Great information regarding the chain growth of 5.2%. Is that a relatively constant number for all VPP suspension on their bikes. e.g, will the 5010v3 rear-center be 447mm at max length (425mm static). I’m curious what the Megatower and 5010v3 rear-center measurements are at 50% travel and if the low shock VPP ratio of 5.2% is similar to the high shock mount VPP of the 5010? Thanks for the interesting video!!
Thanks for the comments. Unfortunately I'm guessing that chain growth is probably not similar across their lineup as different travel etc is going affect how much the suspension needs to move. I would have to do an entirely different measurement for each bike.
Great review! I would really like to know how this compairs to the 2020 Specialized Enduro?? Can’t decide between the two? I am 6’1” and 220lbs. I ride hard and like to pop off things and hit jumps and drops.
Thanks very much, glad you liked it. Unfortunately without doing a full analysis it's hard to guestimate how they would compare. If you check out @vancan he might give you an idea of what it's like as he just bought one.
They would likely have similar leverage ratios but the anti-squat and rise may be tweaked to make one bike a better pedaler or decender depending on the travel and intended use
If you crack a frame for instance or there is a warranty call the LBS would still have to deal with the manufacturer so support would be different. But that comes a lot down to lead time for replacement parts but you'd still deal with your hopefully happy LBS :)
While it might have similar traits with the leverage ratio, the 5010 is meant to be a better pedaler so it likely will have different braking and acceleration characteristics
@@TrailPOV The reason why the Scott is my preffered choice for an "all mountain/Enduro" rig is due to it's versatility that I don't believe any other bike in its category can match. The frame is ultra light for its class. flip the geo chip and install 27.5 with 2.3" tires and you have a super light weight enduro rig. To make it even more versatile you have the Twinloc. Put it in traction mode to set the suspension at 120mm or fully locked out for those long fire roads or uphill climbs. The icing on the cake is the rear shock from Fox that has the ramp switch. Make the bike more progressive or more linear depending on the trail conditions. Truly amazing bike coming from a guy who loves his Scott Genius.
Trail POV Your channel will grow and gain countless more subscribers and views/likes I hope to see you get one with the revenue you make here on UA-cam!
How does it compares to SB150? It seems a little more progressive, and having that situation when breaking over 50% of travel. With both pedaling very well. Is that correct?
@@TrailPOV which downsides do you see when comparing Suspension action of megatower to SB150? (Maybe some pedal kickback, and to much antirise? Or even a harsh endfeel do to too much progressivity?)
@@juscelinocastro The anti-squat and chain growth (pedal kickback) between the two are very similar. Only the anti-rise of the SB150 stays much higher throughout its travel. So under braking the SB150 might not stay as active and plush. Additionally the leverage ratio means that you can hit bigger hits with the Megatower and likely not bottom out while still being able to maintain good small-bump compliance due to the LR being higher to start with.
@@TrailPOV fantastic! I ended buying a megatower with DHX2. Since than, I'm working on setting and studying the harsh end of the travel. I got surprise, since I thought that going coil I'll be able to get less wheel rate. But it appears in the end is opposite. I saw some dhx2 analysis Arguing that it ramps up a lot T the end of the stroke because of the stroke bumper. (Have you ever analyze this?) So I'm thinking to stroke resize to 239 x 60 and go long and high with the fliptips settings, so that i can reduce this Harsh feeling at the end of travel. What's your opinion?
@@juscelinocastro Nice choice. Unfortunately I haven't looked too deep into shock tunes or specific shock model characteristics. Also it'd be very hard to model the flip chip modifications with stroke length adjustments without getting exact dimensions on each flipchip setting. If you are able to provide the exact dimensions on the flipchips I could potentially analyze the effect on LR if you sign up for one of my Patreon Bike Analysis Tiers #shamelessplug
I love these video, but am noticing that your leverage ratio curves are different than those found on the very popular Linkage Design Blogspot. Can you offer any insight as to why the leverage ratio curves might differ between your videos and the Blogspot site? Makes it tough to make a decision when you're not sure who's more on point. Thank you!
I have noticed that as well as my guess is it comes down to where that sites selects the center of the pivots especially the back wheel. If you just use a side photo, the lens will introduce a fisheye effect and also perspective will cause the rear axle to 'shift backward' from where it should be. That is why I use 2D CAD drawings as much as possible and if I have to use a photo, I take the perspective shift into account by using measurements such as shock length which is the same across all model sizes to adjust measurements such as chainstay length to match those indicated in the geometry tables
@@TrailPOV I guess what makes it tough, especially for the Megatower, is that the average LR is 2.78:1, but your graph shows very few moments throughout travel around that 2.8:1 range. The Linkage Design Blogpot seems to be more likely for this particular bike, as about half of the travel is above the 2.8:1 ratio and half is below that same ratio. This is the one graph where you two present very different LR graphs, and it could definitely sway someone in one direction or the other.
@@persistentconsistency That is a really good point you make. I'll have to look into my math and find out the reason for the discrepancy. Thanks for the input.
I suppose the VPP is nowhere near the performance of DW-Link? I demo'd a Megatower and loved how it pedaled to the trailhead but once I got it on the dirt it didn't track very well. Perhaps, the VPP is very finicky and needs to be setup properly? With DW-Link, more specifically an Ibis Ripley and Ripmo, anyway you setup the suspension you get endless traction! I don't want to be a total Santa Cruz hater ( my first full suspension was a Superlight) but I feel Santa Cruz should have their Suspension platform on par with Yeti, Ibis, and Pivot by now! I remember when I first demo'd a Ripley and then demo'd a tallboy back to back at a local Demo. The difference in traction was huge and seems like it still is!
Pinkbike needs to hire you for there reviews, this is so much more informative then some dude saying "Yea the bike shreds!!"
Haha. Thanks!
Ya, you didn't get into the shred factor at all maaan
Okay I am hooked. I want to see all of the suspension systems compared this way now. Might help picking out what I need based on my riding and not marketing bs.
Haha. Glad you like it
@@TrailPOV Amen... Keep this very informative channel going... Subscribed and Notified.
@@baksi07 Thanks very much!
There is a lot of kool-aid drinking going on in the mtb industry. Test riding is essential.
Really excellent vid. I have ridden numerous four bar (Horst) designs, DWLink bikes (Pivot and Ibis), Yeti’s Switch Infinity and I own 2 Santa Cruz Bronsons (V2 with upper linkage and V3 with lower, and have demoed the new Tallboy and Hightower with lower linkages, although not the Mega yet). Most of what your math indicates should happen in the real world I would say is correct, with a few caveats. I have found that the anti squat on the lower link Santa Cruz bikes in the real word outperforms four bar as follows- they stay higher in their travel and have less pedal bob but stay planted providing better traction under pedal power and there is zero pedal kickback on big square edge hits. The four bar definitely loses some small bump compliance and ground hugging compared to the VPP, which if you then drop the psi in the shock to compensate you get more pedal bob. So with a four bar you have to choose- do want better ground hugging traction or less pedal bob, you can’t have both, whereas with the VPP you get both. Also, the pedal kickback difference is quite noticeable. IMO the four bar feels more like the old upper mounted VPP designs- they all had these same issues, especially the pedal kickback due to the chain lengthening. But the new lower link VPP fixes all of these issues. Also, IMO, the DW link bikes and Yeti switch infinity are even better than the VPP in all these areas, but the difference is closer than ever and probably not noticeable for a lot riders.
Regarding downhill, the VPP is far superior to the four bar IMO- it is significantly more supple off the top providing better small bump ground hugging but there is no mid travel sag- in fact just the opposite- when you push the suspension into the mid travel to rail a bermed turn or preload for a jump, it is quite supportive. This is, I believe, why just about everyone who rides a VPP will tell you that they rail turns and feel poppy. And that to me is the magic of the lower link VPP, downhill they manage amazing traction and ground hugging over smaller chunder at high speed, yet still allow you to push into the suspension to rail a turn or boost a jump, making the bike both a bomber and playful and poppy. While IMO the DW link bikes and Yeti have a slight advantage up and under pedal power over the VPP, the VPP is better downhill compared to all of them, although I would take all of them over a four bar.
Regarding blowing through the travel, what I will say about the lower link VPP is that every aggressive ride the little rubber ring is either at the end of the shock or off, indicating I have either used all the travel or blown through it. The VPP combined with the shock tuning will have you using all the travel, occasionally blowing through it. If you are used to older bikes where after even aggressive rides you often have a fair amount of travel left, this may seem shocking (no pun intended). But what I can also say is that even when I have blown through it I have seldom ever actually felt it, and was surprised at the end of my ride that I had blown through it. So in MTB review terminology- the VPP has no harsh bottom out- in other words there is no jarring bang at the end of the travel to mess up your landing- just smoothness.
Why I went Santa Cruz- first, the price difference is not much- compare the Bronson with Trek Remedy, the Scott Genius, the Yeti SB 140, the Pivot Mach 5 etc. All of these brands, if you compare models with similar components, are all within a few hundred dollars of each other. So price is really not an issue if you compare Santa Cruz to other similar upscale brands that do not sell direct to consumer. Although you can save money on consumer direct brands. Which brings me to another reason I went Santa Cruz- dealer support and availability. SC dealers are everywhere in the US, so support no matter where I am is great. And their dealers seem to be the better LBSs with more mountain bike oriented workers. And Company support and warranty are excellent. And the most important reason- the feel when I rode it- the bikes are substantial and stiff as hell resulting in a machine that felt more like an extension of me than any other bike. Plus the sizing is great- at 5’10” I like a long bike and could and did size up to an XL with no problem because of the low standover. The Bronson just fit me better and overall felt better than other bike I had demoed, pedaled awesome, and absolutely felt like a dream on the downhills. And that really should be the deciding factor for a buyer. It is how does the suspension and geometry and the quality of the build and the components come together to feel when you swing a leg over it and hit the trails.
Anyway, great vid and interesting to learn the engineering behind it and how it does really play out on the trail.
Awesome insights! Thanks very much!
Trail POV just sub’d and looking forward to checking out more of your vids.
"Find a comment which is as important as the video, and you are winning!" SunTzu
Great commentary on top of the great vpp explanation. Just got a HT3, still getting used to it after riding a norco sight 2017. While not a hardcore downhiller, the HT3 is so much more refined up and down. Plus w the norco was constantly having to play with the rear shock pressures and ultimately had to reach down and lock it out to prevent pedal bob. Not so w HT3. Never really have to touch the lockout.
Dude these are great. Demystifies the hype from the manufacturers and offers objective data-based comparisons.
I think there definately is some good characteristics in various designs that are well thought out, but nothing is perfect.
I bought that same bike about two years ago Megatower C XL & I loved it. 160mm Fox 36 up front & rock shox ultimate deluxe plus in the rear. One hell of a bike. It's now 2022 & I'm now on my second 2020 Santa Cruz Megatower & this time I'm riding a large CC👍🏿👍🏿 170mm factory Fox 38 up front a factory DHX 2 coil in the rear & I'm 6ft 1in tall. My bike is now amazing to ride & better then before. I live in the PNW Oregon/Washington where we have some big mountains to climb with some amazing down hill to boot & this bike climbs up them all very well & with very little noticeable anti squat & that was with the air shock. Now with the coil I do notice some squat when climbing but not much to complain about. When I get to the top of these mountains & point that Megatower down hill that is where this bike comes alive. I do believe that this bike performs much better with a coil shock in the rear better then the air shock. But tuning that coil to your liking will take some time & homework. I'm not sure that I got it right but all I know is that my 2020 Megatower feels really good to ride🤘🏿
Thanks for the input. Always great to hear from owners. Happy trails!
These videos are amazing. Would love to see one on the Infinity Link
Thanks. Seems like a lot of votes for it
@@TrailPOV Yes, I am also looking forward to see an analysis of the Switch infinity. Do you already know when you will do that? Thanks!
@@markusschmid1145 I've already done a video on the Switch Infinity: ua-cam.com/video/9bfUZxRpyn0/v-deo.html
@@TrailPOV Thank you for the quick response, and especially the great work! In case it needs some votes, I would also be interested in a comparison of old vpp design (e.g. hightower lt) vs the new one.
This is the best mtb channel on UA-cam. Give this man a million subs!
Haha. Thanks very much
Finally someone who speaks suspension with analytical language unbiased by marketing. Thank you sir!
Haha....you're welcome :)
Probably the best video out there that teaches suspensions kinematics for dummies like me. Thanks!
Thanks very much!
My santa cruz dealer has some of the best costumer support i have ever tried.
I've heard that many times through other riders :)
Santa Cruz has the best costumer support out there.
Gosh, what a great video.
I remember when Santa Cruz first came out.... they had a single pivot, and I would laugh because they bobbed so much climbing.
At the time, I thought they were toys and never turn into a serious,
highly engineered machine.
Wrong I was.
Thanks for this explanation. Now, I would consider buying.
Thanks very much. Glad you liked the vid.
Amazing video!! these tipes of videos are better than reviews so keep doing them!
Thanks very much!
Amazing! I want to see pivots dw-link or something where the shock is further up in the frame
The Ibis DW-link and Infinity by Yeti are both on the table
awesome analysis - I'm surprised I actually understood most of it. The best explanation of complex suspension interactions I've ever seen
Glad it was helpful!
It would be great if you kept an updated list of bikes ranked from best to worst depending on specific characteristics. A spreadsheet would be great. I think you've found a great video format here. Keep making these and you'll eventually become the go to guy for this stuff. Anytime anyone is looking to buy a new bike, they'll refer to these vids. Great stuff. Keep up the amazing work. Btw, it would be really cool if you could compare the full floater design from the 2018 Trek Remedy to the non full floater modern Trek Remedy models. I've always been curiuos about the ABP as well.
Thanks very much....glad you liked the videos. Interesting idea about the spreadsheet, I'll keep it in mind if I have some time. You're not the first to mention the Trek, but I'm waiting till I can organize something with a friend of mine to get a hold of one to ride.
@@TrailPOV Nice. Keep up the great work. 😁👍
Excellent video! Please keep them coming
Absolutely killer! Do yeti switch infinity next!
Thanks. Seems like a lot of votes for it.
Sb150 vid is out
Ryan Hicks thank man I watched it when it released
Holy headset ! I knew I should have taken calculus ! That's what I call tech support!. Thanks for that and stay safe.
Haha. Happy trails!
Thanks for your video, after buy a megatower one friend of mine share me this video and I found why this bike it’s better than my transition scout 19, and his old horse link
Nice. Enjoy the new bike!
Very much enjoying your suspension analyses videos. I believe you've overlooked a critical characteristic between the VPP (Megatower) and 4-bar-link (Scott Ransom) during you're summary. While your analyses shows the suspension to perform in a fairly similar manner in your 2D analyses, I suspect the VPP design has greater lateral and torsional stiffness making the bike track better in corners especially when the going gets rough. The solid VPP rear triangle also likely transfers bump energy to the shock more efficiently without flexing and twisting. The VPP rear triangle stiffness should also increase pedaling efficiency with less energy lost to a flexing and twisting of the rear triangle. The same type of lateral and torsional stiffness benefits should apply to DW link and the Yeti suspensions you've reviewed. Probably the only way to test for this would be to build a test jig that measures deflections while applying twisting forces to the rear axle while holding the main frame steady. The same type of test jig could probably be used to test the stiffness of forks.
Thanks very much. You are indeed correct that there will be stiffness differences between designs.....but without numbers I'd rather not jump to conclusions :)
Lovely engineering explanation since I'm looking for my next bike frame; been used to 4 bar linkages for quite some time on the Enduro and Trek bikes, but looking at an Intense Carbine frame which uses VPP derived tech.
Nice! Glad I could help shed some light on the topic :)
Please please please do the hightower in XXL :). Loving your channel. And lets delve a little deeper into the maths than just the graphical plots 🙂. Interested to see how the anti-squat changes with gradient as CG shifts back.
Thanks for the feedback. I'm always trying to run that fine line of too much math that alienates people, and enough math that it's useful.
I love these suspension review videos. Very informative. I do some bike reviews on my channel, and this info really goes more in depth. Love it.
Thank very much
1st time seeing your content. I remember seeing some content from an engineer I think his channel is alexxtr or something like that but he rarely does anything. He has some very interesting content on suspension.
Anyway, hopefully you keep up these explanations of different suspension types and their characteristics.👍
Ya alexxtr has been doing vids for a while. I'm planning on putting out content regularly 🙂
Cool! I rode the Ransom and Megatower back to back and found them very different. The Ransom was very plush and smooth, and the Megatower bounced around a lot and felt like the rear wheel hung up on any square hit.
That's super interesting to hear. Might have something to do with the Megatower's anti-squat staying higher during the travel, or the shock tune being different. Always good to have real-world feedback. Thanks.
Trail POV The Megatower did have Fox suspension and the Ransom had Rockshox, but they were similar mid level caliber. I played around with the settings a lot and still found that to be the general feel to me. I didn't play with volume spacers though as they were demo bikes. The Fox stuff could have been pretty progressive.
Great video and work! So glad I found your channel, I've got some binge watching to do.
Thanks very much! Glad to have you along for the ride
Excellent stuff, Im still a huge fan of the VPP design, whats interesting is its been around for a very long time and wasn't until Santa Cruz got there hands on the patent after Litespeed went under that people started to take notice. IMHO its still the best all around design for the type of riding that I do, with great small bump compliance under braking with minimal "stinkbug effect." Your suspension info is very helpful and I like how you are including just how important shock choice can be depending on design and type of riding a person does. Thanks, keep up the great work.
Thanks. Glad you liked the vid.
Great explanation I'd love to see the new 2020 Specialized Enduro analysed :)
It's coming....there is a long queue
Liked and subscribed. I liked your little joke at the end there, the "why to buy a Santa Cruz" part. Excellent satire.
Awesome to hear. Thanks!
Thanks for the information dude!
HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Happy belated New Year to you too!
Very good content. Great explanation. Thank you.
You are welcome!
Please do Specialized Stump jumper FSR
yes please
It's a 4 bar. He's done them.
Really excellent video. Explained clearly and quickly. Subscribed ☑️
Nice. Thanks!
Thanks a lot for the videos like this one!! I really enjoy them and find them useful to chose my new bike. I'd like to see one for the Mondraker's Zero suspension system, that uses also a VPP
Thanks for the suggestion!
Two more important things about VPP: 1) all bearings are installed in links which makes service extremely easy; 2) (goes to all virtual pivot point suspensions) front and rear triangles are single parts which makes them also easier to (dis)assemble and service.
Very true. Stiffness is another thing that is good on VPP bikes.
When Santa Cruz bikes start winning Enduro's I'll believe the hype
Haha
Honestly they aren't really trying to win EWS Races at the moment, as they don't have a single consistent podium rider. They obviously focus on their downhill team the Syndicate, and that's one of the most winning teams in DH history on the same platform.
remember - it's the Indian, not the arrow
True 👑 GT BICYCLES
It's about the riders not the bikes....
Great analysis! Would be cool to see your thoughts and analysis on the new Megatower V2 with it's revised kinematics.
Thanks for the input
Love your videos. So much effort in these. Could you do one on Niner Rip 9 RDO? CVA suspension? Super curious how this suspension system compares to the competition. Thank you!
Thanks for the suggestion
Awesome video and explanations. I would love to see one on Commencal meta 29s linkage driven single pivot and how it compares.
Thanks for the feedback. I'll add it to the list.
x2! I just bought one
@@carter240 Awesome!
holy shit this is so good. legit thought this good had like 100k subs coz of the quality of the vids. how do you have only 6.3??
Haha. Thanks very much!
Good work!
Thanks very much!
Excellent, well in-depth video. Keep ‘em coming. I would love to hear your opinion on the PROPAIN HUGENE suspension. It has an unusual design. Bike was named Bike of the Year amongst 10 others, by some magazine, I forgot which one. Thanks!
Thanks very much for compliment and input!
great suspension reviews! please do more bikes. and, thank you.
You can always join me over on Patreon for a bunch more analysis #shamelessplug
Great comparison to the 4bar style linkage 👌🏻 Giant’s Maestro next?
Thanks! This thing took forever to edit but turned out well :) I was thinking Specialized Enduro as there a good amount of buzz surrounding it
...or if you had to hook me up with a contact at Knolly I might have my arm twisted to do one of their suspensions hehe
I have the Kross moon 1.0 and i love it❤️
I have a megatower and can tell you that when pedaling the bike reacts very differently depending on how much you keep your weight on the seat. If I'm fully committed to weight on the seat there's no Bob. In fact, the lack of bob is actually a pain when doing some trails as it makes you feel like you're sitting too high on the bike.
Thanks for the info. Good to know.
Please do the new v10!
Do people actually pedal V10s haha
Cool video. I've been debating between an air or coil shock for my Megatower. I think I'll stay with air.
Enjoy!
Please do the Specialized Enduro suspension.
Already in the queue.
Trail POV thanks. I just subscribed. These videos are absolutely amazing. I truly appreciate the hard work and research that you put into the suspension series.
@@bryancola6655 Thanks very much! Glad you like them.
What a great review. Thanks
Thanks for watching!
This is mind blowing! Please review Trek Slash 2021 if possible. Thank you.
Glad you liked it!
I'd be curious to see how the Intense derivative of VPP that they use on the Carbine and the Tracer stacks up to the Santa Cruz. Love the videos, very informative!
Thanks for the input.
Would be very interesting to see how some of the Intense/Jeff Steber designed Santa Cruz bikes compare to the new SC and JS tuned bikes now that they aren't collaborating so much.
@3:50 more air in this suspension does not result in less small bump compliance, specifically because the leverage curve is higher. the higher leverage curve makes the suspension more reactive in the lower air pressures before the shock is compressed.
Yup totally agree if you had to take friction out, but the extremely high shock pressures do result in the need for tighter seals to keep the pressure in resulting in more stiction
Hi, can you also do another analysis for Bronson V3? Thanks for the great analysis.
Thanks for the feedback.
Thank you very much for the incredible video!
Do you have an opinion on the Mondraker Zero Suspension system?
Especially in comparison between the Superfoxy and the Megatower?
Thanks!
Great, I have actually had a chance to ride this. You can really notice the small bump compliance (I am a heavy rider). I'm also facinated that the spring rate has a bigger effect then the leverage curve.
Inifinity link or DW next?
I'm considering a few options next, but pretty open to suggestions.
@@TrailPOV v10 next please
@@TrailPOV Ibis Ripmo DW-link would be an interesting comparison
@@lennyfellmeth7892 I could, but my initial gut is you're not buying a v10 for the pedalling efficiency :)
this is gonna be my next rig
Sweeet!
Could you please do a video on the Jamis 3VO suspension? Just subscribed for these videos, great info!
Just posted on Patreon: www.patreon.com/posts/54358590
Could you do one of these videos for the Trek ABP suspension system? Thanks for your awesome videos!
Thanks very much! Trek may make an appearance in the future.
Very cool and geeky video ! Can you do the Mondraker Foxy 29 ?
Thanks. With enough requests from others the Mondraker could be bumped in priority. So far the dw-link seems to be next in line.
It would be cool to see a video where you compare the effects of a flip chip on a bike like the Nukeproof Dissent or Giga.
I am intrigued to look at the Giga given how new it is
Very nicely explained, but you talk about the price for the Megatower as it is more as the Scott Ransom?! They are identically priced here in Europe. In my opinion the big difference between the two are the 2kg while pedalling uphill. The Ransom about 13kg and the Meg about 15kg (with coil). I own a Megatower and my grilfriend a Ransom. Love both bikes.
Thanks for the input. Must be an EU vs NA thing regarding price. Happy trails!
How did you get your measurements for your analysis? Most bikes it's fairly straightforward and you can do it in linkage with a side profile pic of the bike. The new lower link Santa Cruz's tho are really hard because you can't see the pivot bolts, so curious where you got your measurements from.
Fantastic videos btw. Good explanation and some of the best editing I've seen on any analysis like this ever, nice work!
Thanks very much. I base my measurement off CAD geometry diagrams of the side profiles of the bikes. Most side photos of bicycles move the pivots slightly due to the fish-eye effect of a lens so aren't as reliable and hide pivots as you say.
Love this particular insight into frame! Could you do one on the new kona process 153s?:)
Thanks for the feedback.
I would love to see a Comparison of the Santa Cruz Megatower and the V10... of course, the one is Enduro and the other a DH, but i would line to see the significant differences between them.👍🏻
Thanks for the suggestion
Trail POV Thanks for those Interesting and helpful Videos!🤗 Keep going👍🏻
@@Pitstopcomponents Thanks very much!
thanks for the informative and unbiased technical analysis, can I conclude that all the latest santa cruz bikes that have the same design will have similar characteristics? or it will be vary by model since this was analysed based on megatower?
Unfortunately not all SC bikes will have same characteristics as each will be tailored to the discipline.....eg. XC, enduro, DH etc to ensure they perform as well as they can in the conditions they are designed for.
@@TrailPOV any plan to do a suspension analysis for nomad v4?
@@alextan1008 It hasn't made it onto my recurring poll yet
Can you make one on the Devinci spartan?
I'd be interested to see this for the Canfield Balance Formula!
I have the Revel Rail in my poll, which is running a CBF design
Enjoying your videos, are you doing one for the 2020 specialized enduro
Yup. It's coming up next 👍
@@TrailPOV sweet, would be cool to see a comparison between it & the megatower since they are "similar" looking
A video on the Specialized Enduro vs YT Capra 29 just went live on Patreon if you're interested
Please do the CBP suspension of Revel Bikes and Salsa’s suspension design it would be really helpful for me to decide what I would get thanks!
I have actually looked at the CBF designs in my Revel Rail video.
Its a bit late but can you do a video on forbiddens trifecta linkage
A forbidden bike will be in the future but likely the druid
Like what you’re doing. When will you check out the new 2020 Specialized Enduro ? Thanks.
Thanks. I have a huge video idea for the Enduro but it might be a month or so before I attempt it as there have been a lot more requests for the Canyon so far.
Trail POV I’m about to get one soon.
@@ArturPereiraMTB Nice bike from what I've heard. If you check out my Patreon page there is a tier option to become a patron and select which bike I do next. Depending on if you're certain on the Enduro or just considering it might be an option to support me to get some hopefully valuable info #shameless-plug
A video on the Pole bikes?
Interesting analysis! Is it possible to tune the suspension on a Megatower to feel more plush, like on that of a Nomad?
The leverage curves are very similar in shape. It has more to do with the tune of the shock likely.
Great information regarding the chain growth of 5.2%. Is that a relatively constant number for all VPP suspension on their bikes. e.g, will the 5010v3 rear-center be 447mm at max length (425mm static). I’m curious what the Megatower and 5010v3 rear-center measurements are at 50% travel and if the low shock VPP ratio of 5.2% is similar to the high shock mount VPP of the 5010? Thanks for the interesting video!!
Thanks for the comments. Unfortunately I'm guessing that chain growth is probably not similar across their lineup as different travel etc is going affect how much the suspension needs to move. I would have to do an entirely different measurement for each bike.
excellent analysis,can you do one for the nukeproof mega? thanks
I can certainly add it to the queue
Great review! I would really like to know how this compairs to the 2020 Specialized Enduro?? Can’t decide between the two? I am 6’1” and 220lbs. I ride hard and like to pop off things and hit jumps and drops.
Thanks very much, glad you liked it. Unfortunately without doing a full analysis it's hard to guestimate how they would compare. If you check out @vancan he might give you an idea of what it's like as he just bought one.
How about a breakdown of a CBF suspension? (Revel licenses the Canfield Balance formula)
Already done: ua-cam.com/video/rGeB5RfQRnU/v-deo.html
I have ZERO idea what any of this is and means. And I am an engineer. Lol.
And it is all AWESOME!!!!! 🤣😍
😆
If anything else it looks clean af compared to other technologies
It is nice to have everything compactly situated at the bottom
Would this analysis apply to all of Santa’s Cruz’s lower link VPP bikes (Hightower and Tallboy)?
They would likely have similar leverage ratios but the anti-squat and rise may be tweaked to make one bike a better pedaler or decender depending on the travel and intended use
Any chance you can do Rocky Mountain Element and Instinct? Both are some sort of 4 bar design. thanks!
Thanks for the input
Best
Do nukeproof giga vs mega!
Amazing 🤩, YT V4 please :)
Thanks. I'll add that to my next Patreon poll.
A video on the Specialized Enduro vs YT Capra 29 just went live on Patreon if you're interested
My LBS deals in SC, Specialized and Rocky Mountain so support would be the same for all I'm guessing.
If you crack a frame for instance or there is a warranty call the LBS would still have to deal with the manufacturer so support would be different. But that comes a lot down to lead time for replacement parts but you'd still deal with your hopefully happy LBS :)
SO WHICH IS BETTER? scott ransom or santa cruz suspension?
Both are great bikes, it probably is equally important to look at the budget
Does this analysis apply to the 5010 v4 with the same VPP design?
While it might have similar traits with the leverage ratio, the 5010 is meant to be a better pedaler so it likely will have different braking and acceleration characteristics
Is it just me, when I see other suspensions designs I don't care if it's better or worse than the Ranson...I still want the Scott Ransom haha
The Ransom certainly is nice
@@TrailPOV The reason why the Scott is my preffered choice for an "all mountain/Enduro" rig is due to it's versatility that I don't believe any other bike in its category can match. The frame is ultra light for its class. flip the geo chip and install 27.5 with 2.3" tires and you have a super light weight enduro rig. To make it even more versatile you have the Twinloc. Put it in traction mode to set the suspension at 120mm or fully locked out for those long fire roads or uphill climbs. The icing on the cake is the rear shock from Fox that has the ramp switch. Make the bike more progressive or more linear depending on the trail conditions. Truly amazing bike coming from a guy who loves his Scott Genius.
@@liquidSpin I hundred percent agree....I've drunk the Scott Twinloc coolaid already and love my Genius LT (the precursor to the Ransom)
Trail POV Your channel will grow and gain countless more subscribers and views/likes I hope to see you get one with the revenue you make here on UA-cam!
Giant's Maestro suspension pls
I wonder how much improvement between Santa Cruz old VPP and new VPP
Unfortunately I have no data for the old model
Is there a verison of this video for the new v2?
While there isn't a video, over on Patreon I have an analysis that shows the core elements without the timely animations. #shamelessplug
Can you please do Marin Mount Vision ?
Thanks for the suggestion
Do an IDS GT!!!
How does it compares to SB150? It seems a little more progressive, and having that situation when breaking over 50% of travel. With both pedaling very well. Is that correct?
The Megatower is way more progressive. While the Megatower has a leverage ratio range of about 0.8, the SB150 has a range of only 0.3.
@@TrailPOV which downsides do you see when comparing Suspension action of megatower to SB150? (Maybe some pedal kickback, and to much antirise? Or even a harsh endfeel do to too much progressivity?)
@@juscelinocastro The anti-squat and chain growth (pedal kickback) between the two are very similar. Only the anti-rise of the SB150 stays much higher throughout its travel. So under braking the SB150 might not stay as active and plush. Additionally the leverage ratio means that you can hit bigger hits with the Megatower and likely not bottom out while still being able to maintain good small-bump compliance due to the LR being higher to start with.
@@TrailPOV fantastic! I ended buying a megatower with DHX2. Since than, I'm working on setting and studying the harsh end of the travel. I got surprise, since I thought that going coil I'll be able to get less wheel rate. But it appears in the end is opposite.
I saw some dhx2 analysis Arguing that it ramps up a lot T the end of the stroke because of the stroke bumper. (Have you ever analyze this?)
So I'm thinking to stroke resize to 239 x 60 and go long and high with the fliptips settings, so that i can reduce this Harsh feeling at the end of travel. What's your opinion?
@@juscelinocastro Nice choice. Unfortunately I haven't looked too deep into shock tunes or specific shock model characteristics. Also it'd be very hard to model the flip chip modifications with stroke length adjustments without getting exact dimensions on each flipchip setting. If you are able to provide the exact dimensions on the flipchips I could potentially analyze the effect on LR if you sign up for one of my Patreon Bike Analysis Tiers #shamelessplug
May i request the zero suspension tech on Mondraker *please*
Thanks for the suggestion. So far the poll is leaning toward the Forbidden Druid next.
I love these video, but am noticing that your leverage ratio curves are different than those found on the very popular Linkage Design Blogspot. Can you offer any insight as to why the leverage ratio curves might differ between your videos and the Blogspot site? Makes it tough to make a decision when you're not sure who's more on point. Thank you!
I have noticed that as well as my guess is it comes down to where that sites selects the center of the pivots especially the back wheel. If you just use a side photo, the lens will introduce a fisheye effect and also perspective will cause the rear axle to 'shift backward' from where it should be. That is why I use 2D CAD drawings as much as possible and if I have to use a photo, I take the perspective shift into account by using measurements such as shock length which is the same across all model sizes to adjust measurements such as chainstay length to match those indicated in the geometry tables
@@TrailPOV I guess what makes it tough, especially for the Megatower, is that the average LR is 2.78:1, but your graph shows very few moments throughout travel around that 2.8:1 range. The Linkage Design Blogpot seems to be more likely for this particular bike, as about half of the travel is above the 2.8:1 ratio and half is below that same ratio. This is the one graph where you two present very different LR graphs, and it could definitely sway someone in one direction or the other.
@@persistentconsistency Out of interest, where are you getting the 2.78 LR from?
@@TrailPOV I just took the 160 mm travel and divided it by the shock stroke length of 57.5 mm, to get an average LR of 2.78:1
@@persistentconsistency That is a really good point you make. I'll have to look into my math and find out the reason for the discrepancy. Thanks for the input.
I think the biggest part of the VPP suspension design is actually the low center of gravity it offers, not actually the suspension performance
That....and stiffness. Same idea to the Spec Enduro.
I suppose the VPP is nowhere near the performance of DW-Link?
I demo'd a Megatower and loved how it pedaled to the trailhead but once I got it on the dirt it didn't track very well. Perhaps, the VPP is very finicky and needs to be setup properly?
With DW-Link, more specifically an Ibis Ripley and Ripmo, anyway you setup the suspension you get endless traction!
I don't want to be a total Santa Cruz hater ( my first full suspension was a Superlight) but I feel Santa Cruz should have their Suspension platform on par with Yeti, Ibis, and Pivot by now!
I remember when I first demo'd a Ripley and then demo'd a tallboy back to back at a local Demo. The difference in traction was huge and seems like it still is!
Thanks for the input. Each design has its pros and cons depending on your riding style
Do the maestro link pls