This was one of the bests conversations I have seen with Niall. To see his historical repertoire on display was epic. Josh really did well on bringing this out. Excellent
Very good discussion. Ferguson often sounds like he's on autopilot because he is interviewed so often. Here he was prodded out of his comfort zone and had to start growling a bit, which makes him much more interesting to listen to .
Nial Fergusson says he is happy as long as his books are sold, no matter who buys it. This is his approach in other matters as well. He can flatter war criminals like Henry Kissinger or write things that are loved by the neo conservative. He can go to any extent to get attention of those who are in power
If the differences are from institutions rather than culture, what's the explanation for differences between people who live in Virginia vs. West Virginia? Or people in the San Joaquin Valley vs. people in the Bay Area? Why did the institutions of the British Empire produce such different results in Pakistan and India, but such similar results in Canada and Australia? Did the 1 day-old State of Israel have an institutional advantage over the Arab countries in 1948, or was it instead a cultural advantage? The Eastern Poland vs. Western Ukraine argument also doesn't make sense - it's not the geography that houses the culture, but the people. The Poles moved west, and took their culture, and thus their institutions (existing and potential), with them. I am an admirer of Niall Ferguson, but trying to divorce a society's culture from its institutions seems wrong. If an institution is a system of incentives, but a culture is a system of values, then the culture will determine the acceptance, effectiveness, and durability of the institutions.
Obviously institutions are critical. But does anyone believe if you imposed Western institutions on the Afghans or Syrians, their societies would accept and flourish under them? Culture is the context in which institutions operate.
Nial Fergusson's ancestors benefitted from the Empire, so he will definitely support it. This is very personal argument though I feel sympathy for him and his family who cannot enjoy that benefit any longer. Also recall the population of red Indians which was around 124 million, according to Roy Casandra of Austin School, over the several decades it was reduced to 25 million only. Howard Zinn said it was 59 million probably as big as that of Europe in 1492 and 0ver 90 percent perished, 12 million slaves were brought, 4 million perished in the Middle Passage. Zinnia asserted 55 million slaves were brought. According to Christopher Clark, a Cambridge historian, over 80 percent Red Indians decimated because of massacres, diseases etc. Zinn claims 55 million slaves were brought, one million Irish perished because of the British imposed famines while millions of Irish and other European served as indentured labourers in the new world while 35 million Indian also faced the same fate who died in British imposed Jamie's which were the result of British policies, over 40 percent British trade consisted of opium sale in the early 19th century, China was forced to buy opium, France killed millions in North Africa and other parts of the world, British introduced concentration camps in Kenya and other parts of the world, Germany played havoc with the lives of African colonies, Leopold of Belgium killed over ten million Africans , amputating over a million, Portugal and Spain looted silver and gold from South and Central America, Japan ruthlessly killed Chinese and people of other colonies. Nial talks about killings in China and Russia but he intends to ignore the brutalities of empires. By the way modern research claims one million were killed in the USSR. I am not justifying the brutality of Stalin and others but you tend to forget the oppression of western colonial powers---the genocides, massacres, plundering, imposition of opium, destruction of Indian and Chinese economy that would contribute over 40 percent to global economy. It is argued that the British laid railways to transport weapons. Shashi Tharoor has claimed that the entire education budget of British India was lesser than that of New York state or city and Fergusson has no answer to this. The British and other empires introduced protectionism and not free market as Neil claims. How many scientific institutions the Empire set up in India? The grim reality that agri tax would be waived off during the Mughal Time when a famine hit a certain area but the British, according to many historians, extorted this even during and after famines that complicated the situation. The USSR played a key in defeating Hitler losing 27 million people, over 30 million Soviets wounded and the country faced the destruction of over 34000 industries. Fergusson claims a lot about rule of law which principles of law allow a country to invade and subjugate others. Papers and guns invesnted in China and they made their way to Arab world and Europe. Agriculture was used by the Middle East first but it reached Europe as well. The life was brute in European continent which was overcrowded and impoverished. The America's were not overcrowded that is why they didn't face as many famines or diseases as the Europeans did. I can go one for hours
I couldn’t believe that Iraq started with national elections. Voting for a president who is very remote from most people is not a good place to start. Voting for a dog catcher or an office where almost everyone already knows the candidates personally is where to start. It is not abstract. In a small area everyone may know all candidates and know which one follows through on what they say.
I'd say that Fergy makes too much of the Scottish civil law vs English common law difference. Sure, it was historically significant but for a long time now the majority of law is just statute law.
At least social media has provided a platform to ordinary people that they can come and expose lies of Fergusson. Otherwise you would have had never enough money to print a book against elitist writers like Fergusson. Publishers would not take your books. So, social media in a way has broken that monopoly.
Frederick Remington, the famous American Western artist proposed that the most warlike tribes of the late 19th Century be incorporated into the US Army as light cavalry. He argued that for self respect becoming farmers or clerks would demean them, but they would happily put their lives on the line as warriors and they would retain the respect of their families. He envisioned them as sort of American Gurkas. Sacajawea, the young woman who guided Lewis and Clark, had been kidnapped as a child and sold to a French trapper as a wife before the expedition arrived. Would Jim Thorpe been happier to be known as the best athlete among a few dozen tribal children? No outrage of often well-meaning British or American was not commonly exercised before the arrival of Anglo people, except children sent to Indian schools were thought to be doing them a service in integrating them, while, stolen children in more primitive societies were just slaves.
While modernity has been originated from western europe, it needed the rest of the world to be fully born and not always in the best way. Without european expansion, you would have a world cyclically filled with roman-like empires with wild fringes while waiting for religion sophisticated like christianity to pacify and show them a new way that would have possibly end up to technical progress and human life inprovement. These latters have indeed precedes modernity.
Well finelly I got the answer why Niall is kind of pushing to hard the Putin=Hitler theme.. it all goes down to his old Russia -Weimar theory. Ok.apparently a briliant and fascinating historian can also be traped in a conseption. A wrong one for shure. I wonder how of all people he can't see the different between the persons and the backround exc..
_'One thing's for sure, it wouldn't have been Wakanda.'_ You walked right into that one. Ludicrous claim that it could have looked like that. And it is, there's not a 'million different ways this could go'. There are few viable ones. If not European imperial expansion, the most likely invaders of Australia would have been from what is today Indonesia, likely Javanese as they were exceptional seafarers and had a very large population. The Maori are another candidate. The Ming dynasty certainly had the technology to do so as well plus the wealth and population to fund and man mass voyages, but they were not open sea mariners for extended periods, preferring to hug the coastline. Certainly, they could have worked their way through the Indonesian or Philippine archipelagos.
The first 20 mins Ferguson seems to waffle a load of contradictory nonsense - and ups his 'middle class west scotland protestant' accent to cover it up
While modernity has been originated from western europe, it needed the rest of the world to be fully born and not always in the best way. Without european expansion, you would have a world cyclically filled with roman-like empires with wild fringes while waiting for religion sophisticated like christianity to pacify and show them a new way that would have possibly end up to technical progress and human life inprovement. These latters have indeed precedes modernity.
This was one of the bests conversations I have seen with Niall. To see his historical repertoire on display was epic. Josh really did well on bringing this out. Excellent
Very good discussion. Ferguson often sounds like he's on autopilot because he is interviewed so often. Here he was prodded out of his comfort zone and had to start growling a bit, which makes him much more interesting to listen to .
Well spotted. I agree.
Brilliant what a mighty man he is, thank you mr Ferguson.
Excellent conversation ! Kudos!!!
Love Niall. Great job pushing back about reparations etc.
Nial Fergusson says he is happy as long as his books are sold, no matter who buys it. This is his approach in other matters as well. He can flatter war criminals like Henry Kissinger or write things that are loved by the neo conservative. He can go to any extent to get attention of those who are in power
If the differences are from institutions rather than culture, what's the explanation for differences between people who live in Virginia vs. West Virginia? Or people in the San Joaquin Valley vs. people in the Bay Area? Why did the institutions of the British Empire produce such different results in Pakistan and India, but such similar results in Canada and Australia?
Did the 1 day-old State of Israel have an institutional advantage over the Arab countries in 1948, or was it instead a cultural advantage?
The Eastern Poland vs. Western Ukraine argument also doesn't make sense - it's not the geography that houses the culture, but the people. The Poles moved west, and took their culture, and thus their institutions (existing and potential), with them.
I am an admirer of Niall Ferguson, but trying to divorce a society's culture from its institutions seems wrong. If an institution is a system of incentives, but a culture is a system of values, then the culture will determine the acceptance, effectiveness, and durability of the institutions.
Brilliant work!
Obviously institutions are critical. But does anyone believe if you imposed Western institutions on the Afghans or Syrians, their societies would accept and flourish under them? Culture is the context in which institutions operate.
Start with the basic building blocks: rule of law, property rights, impartial courts, and *go slowly*
Fabulous is the word.
Nial Fergusson's ancestors benefitted from the Empire, so he will definitely support it. This is very personal argument though I feel sympathy for him and his family who cannot enjoy that benefit any longer. Also recall the population of red Indians which was around 124 million, according to Roy Casandra of Austin School, over the several decades it was reduced to 25 million only. Howard Zinn said it was 59 million probably as big as that of Europe in 1492 and 0ver 90 percent perished, 12 million slaves were brought, 4 million perished in the Middle Passage. Zinnia asserted 55 million slaves were brought. According to Christopher Clark, a Cambridge historian, over 80 percent Red Indians decimated because of massacres, diseases etc. Zinn claims 55 million slaves were brought, one million Irish perished because of the British imposed famines while millions of Irish and other European served as indentured labourers in the new world while 35 million Indian also faced the same fate who died in British imposed Jamie's which were the result of British policies, over 40 percent British trade consisted of opium sale in the early 19th century, China was forced to buy opium, France killed millions in North Africa and other parts of the world, British introduced concentration camps in Kenya and other parts of the world, Germany played havoc with the lives of African colonies, Leopold of Belgium killed over ten million Africans , amputating over a million, Portugal and Spain looted silver and gold from South and Central America, Japan ruthlessly killed Chinese and people of other colonies.
Nial talks about killings in China and Russia but he intends to ignore the brutalities of empires.
By the way modern research claims one million were killed in the USSR. I am not justifying the brutality of Stalin and others but you tend to forget the oppression of western colonial powers---the genocides, massacres, plundering, imposition of opium, destruction of Indian and Chinese economy that would contribute over 40 percent to global economy.
It is argued that the British laid railways to transport weapons. Shashi Tharoor has claimed that the entire education budget of British India was lesser than that of New York state or city and Fergusson has no answer to this.
The British and other empires introduced protectionism and not free market as Neil claims. How many scientific institutions the Empire set up in India?
The grim reality that agri tax would be waived off during the Mughal Time when a famine hit a certain area but the British, according to many historians, extorted this even during and after famines that complicated the situation.
The USSR played a key in defeating Hitler losing 27 million people, over 30 million Soviets wounded and the country faced the destruction of over 34000 industries.
Fergusson claims a lot about rule of law which principles of law allow a country to invade and subjugate others.
Papers and guns invesnted in China and they made their way to Arab world and Europe. Agriculture was used by the Middle East first but it reached Europe as well.
The life was brute in European continent which was overcrowded and impoverished. The America's were not overcrowded that is why they didn't face as many famines or diseases as the Europeans did.
I can go one for hours
Great guest. Great interview.
I couldn’t believe that Iraq started with national elections. Voting for a president who is very remote from most people is not a good place to start. Voting for a dog catcher or an office where almost everyone already knows the candidates personally is where to start. It is not abstract. In a small area everyone may know all candidates and know which one follows through on what they say.
Hamilton and Madison proved to some degree a republic can be large.
I'd say that Fergy makes too much of the Scottish civil law vs English common law difference.
Sure, it was historically significant but for a long time now the majority of law is just statute law.
Good episode.
At least social media has provided a platform to ordinary people that they can come and expose lies of Fergusson. Otherwise you would have had never enough money to print a book against elitist writers like Fergusson. Publishers would not take your books. So, social media in a way has broken that monopoly.
Frederick Remington, the famous American Western artist proposed that the most warlike tribes of the late 19th Century be incorporated into the US Army as light cavalry. He argued that for self respect becoming farmers or clerks would demean them, but they would happily put their lives on the line as warriors and they would retain the respect of their families. He envisioned them as sort of American Gurkas.
Sacajawea, the young woman who guided Lewis and Clark, had been kidnapped as a child and sold to a French trapper as a wife before the expedition arrived.
Would Jim Thorpe been happier to be known as the best athlete among a few dozen tribal children?
No outrage of often well-meaning British or American was not commonly exercised before the arrival of Anglo people, except children sent to Indian schools were thought to be doing them a service in integrating them, while, stolen children in more primitive societies were just slaves.
UK seems totally screwed,
How dangerous can our ideas be, and still be hosted on your channel? Curious about the idea of "freedom."
While modernity has been originated from western europe, it needed the rest of the world to be fully born and not always in the best way. Without european expansion, you would have a world cyclically filled with roman-like empires with wild fringes while waiting for religion sophisticated like christianity to pacify and show them a new way that would have possibly end up to technical progress and human life inprovement. These latters have indeed precedes modernity.
Well finelly I got the answer why Niall is kind of pushing to hard the Putin=Hitler theme.. it all goes down to his old Russia -Weimar theory. Ok.apparently a briliant and fascinating historian can also be traped in a conseption. A wrong one for shure. I wonder how of all people he can't see the different between the persons and the backround exc..
_'One thing's for sure, it wouldn't have been Wakanda.'_
You walked right into that one.
Ludicrous claim that it could have looked like that. And it is, there's not a 'million different ways this could go'. There are few viable ones. If not European imperial expansion, the most likely invaders of Australia would have been from what is today Indonesia, likely Javanese as they were exceptional seafarers and had a very large population. The Maori are another candidate. The Ming dynasty certainly had the technology to do so as well plus the wealth and population to fund and man mass voyages, but they were not open sea mariners for extended periods, preferring to hug the coastline. Certainly, they could have worked their way through the Indonesian or Philippine archipelagos.
57:41 who are they referring to?
Enjoying the conversation but the amount of vocal fry is annoying
Once you begin to hear it, it cant be unheard.
Min 55
Please define woke. Pretty please.
Hello 'humans'? Try 'ladies and gentlemen' mate, or leave off boasting about 'dangerous ideas'. You're scared.
Josh > Niall
The first 20 mins Ferguson seems to waffle a load of contradictory nonsense - and ups his 'middle class west scotland protestant' accent to cover it up
While modernity has been originated from western europe, it needed the rest of the world to be fully born and not always in the best way. Without european expansion, you would have a world cyclically filled with roman-like empires with wild fringes while waiting for religion sophisticated like christianity to pacify and show them a new way that would have possibly end up to technical progress and human life inprovement. These latters have indeed precedes modernity.