In a fantasy setting, sometimes it makes no sense to be an atheist, but you can be God defiant, like so many greek characters, or just someone who doesn't care that much, and then it could lead to a story where this or that God wants to punish you, teach you a lesson. Or maybe the PC starts to discover his faith through his journey, and the GM is working to put these signs of divine presence or interference.
Hey, Guy, just wanted to point out something. But you actually were being accurately labeled when you said you're a Satanist. Satanists believe in neither God nor the Devil. They believe in human agency and sovereignty. They're pretty much atheists who make a point of ethics and morals not being religious currency alone. The term Satanist is merely there to aggravate Christians and to spark challenging conversation. There's a really good meme out about this that says "If Satanists don't believe in the devil, then what do you call people who do?" and the answer is "Christian".
in harry dresden exist a character how is a knight of the cross, and is atheist... the point is the arc angel gabriel gave him his sword, and after he was questioned about by Harry, he is now a agnostic becaus he is not realy sure about the fact that the sword he uses to fight has been given to him by a true angel... realy funny character by the way
Best role playing cleric I saw was a guy running a cleric of Groetus, apoc god, the skull moon God of the end. The other players were suspicious of him, that he would bring on real chaos, and there were end of the world prophecies that were causing the other players to be concerned. The apoc cleric laughed. He pointed to all of the chaos the players had caused, monsters they unleashed, wars they started, he thought THEY would bring about the end of the world. He laughed again, explaining he didn't have to do anything. They sweated.
Totally agree. As a player I am an atheist, but my character not believing in the very entity that grants him magical powers is just daft. Likewise he would also believe in the many entities that grant power to his enemies or allies, since eldritch-blast to the backside hurts whether you believe in it or not :)
Even while being atheist I like to play my characters in D&D and similar settings always with at least having one god they believe in, since they are actually forces that have impact on the world. Some of them are even a little zealous in their faith, even if they don't get any power from it. Like, when you worship a good god and you are facing constant demons and winning against all odds, you end up thinking the god is helping you somehow so maybe in the next town it's time to pay a visit to the church.
Atheism in a fantasy world doesn't really make too much sense. The gods are objectively real (at least D&D gods are). There are three tropes that come into play here. Pick your favorite. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NayTheist For if you don't believe the gods aren't worthy of worship. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlatEarthAtheist If your character is delusional and refuses to believe in the gods talking to you aren't real. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SufficientlyAdvancedAlien If the "gods" are real, but they aren't actually gods, and don't care if you worship them or not.
@@zhoupact8567 I like some of this and have played some homebrew stuff like this in previous editions. Can be interesting but can be very hair-raising.
I'm Christian and my warforged/synthetic characters In Sci fi settings are generally full blown adeptus mechanicus, if I can't get away with playing a race like that in a setting my character generally avoids religion but obviously believes in it. I just really love the idea of a fanatical artificer
My characters generally take the stance of The Wizards of Terry Pratchett's Discworld. Out of 'Reaper Man': "Wizards don't believe in gods in the same way that most people don't find it necessary to believe in, say, tables. They know they're there, they know they're there for a purpose, they'd probably agree that they have a place in a well-organised universe, but they wouldn't see the point of believing, of going around saying "O great table, without whom we are as naught." Anyway, either the gods are there whether you believe in them or not, or exist only as a function of the belief, so either way you might as well ignore the whole business and, as it were, eat off your knees.”
Pratchett quote=instant like :) I remember a scene in one of the books where they generally are very respectful in a vague manner because while powerful and prideful, they don't like to be vaporized by a random lighting bolt.
A good video, as always. I think if someone plays an "atheist" in D&D or any other setting where Gods are real, the example of an "atheist" in a fantasy setting is Nagash from Warhammer. In the Nagash series he knows that gods are real, he knows they have power but he does not worship them. He believes they are entities which are dependent upon humanity for their existence and in turn give their priests "miracles," and he even speculates that they intentionally keeping humanity down. If someone plays an "atheist" in a setting where gods are a thing, they should play like that. Acknowledge the existence of gods, just don't worship them. Plot to get rid of them and take their crowns for your own. Granted, such a character would usually be evil but I can definitely see it being done in a way to make it so the character is a hero and the gods are evil.
Here's another way of looking at it. An "atheist" character in D&D/any other setting where gods are real doesn't believe in them because he's uneducated. Now, why would that be the case? Well simple, he's uneducated and believes that the Miracles and acts done by clerics and others are simply their way of explaining how they use their magic. While Wizards study, the religious people think their own magic power is their gods giving them that power when it is really themselves unlocking it, and thus making the moments when a cleric or priest loses power entirely a placebo effect. Maybe uneducated's not the right word. Perhaps it'd be more like, they don't see the proof of gods existing when they see the proof of magic first if that makes sense.
@@hysterical5408 Or maybe the individual could think the two spell casting methods come from the same thing. Think about it, a sufficiently powerful wizard could say they are the prophet of a god, real or made up, and pass their magic off as miracles. I think in Pathfinder there is a wizard who is passing himself off as a god to run a country.
Its worth pointing out that there are flat earthers and anti-vaxers. It could be interesting to play a character that had no keening, refused to believe any magic existed and just had the observation skills of a goldfish, *Always happens to be facing the wrong way when a fireball goes off* *Creates elaborate conspiracies to justify his perspective* etc..
@@StarboyXL9 That smells like 'the group kills this character faster, than the constantly lying, scheming and PC-pickpocketing Tiefling, who is also annoying as hell' :D But comedy gold none the less as long as it's good for :D
"I've never seen a god, just a bunch of people in robes telling us that they get their magic powers from gods. Clearly, they're just arcane casters who are running an elaborate ruse so that they become rich on the offerings we give to the gods they've invented."
@@ashtonkerr6276 meanwhile in 5e the gods draw their power from worship, so if they gain enough followers to believe that trickery, they would become real honest to goodness dieties. I'm serious, that's a completely valid, 100% canon way of achieving godhood in D&D. It would vary how difficult it would be from DM to DM, and various other factors, but it's easier than most other methods presented so far in the official D&D material.
@@auroralaruam and it's a surefire way to get a deity's attention if you actively undermine belief in them. :-} At least if you're at least moderately successful...
Guy starts talking about a controversial religious subject Me: raises eyebrows Guy: but we won't go there Me: Smiles Thank you for making this great video. This is one of my favourite channels on youtube right now, and if I had much money I would support you on patreon. This deserves way more support then it gets.
I've never seen a Dungeon Master handle clerics correctly. He's a PRIEST for gods sake! He should be given a higher level of respect by NPCs than other adventures. Father, Your Grace, Your Honor ( ST. Cuthbert ) or some other honorific should be used when addressing them. NPCs of the same or allied faith should view them more favorably. Players of course have their own obligations when playing clerics. Flavor presents itself for this class. Use it.
I have my cleric PC address other clerics with their titles. That being said, I can see a cleric's party members just calling them by their name anyway, since they know them personally.
I strenuously disagree. A cleric should be granted respect by NPCs, yes, but so should the guy who can point at things and make everything within 20 feet of that point explode. Or the guy who throws around more money in an afternoon than they've seen in their entire life (which is how most settings seem to handle their economies). Very *different* kinds of respect, certainly. But honestly, in a world of magic, active gods, warriors with the skill to take down 20 peasants single handedly even if they're armed and he's not...every NPC should be very wary of every stranger they meet. It's kinda like being a normal in the Marvel universe - you've got superheroes, supervillains, mutants and all that jazz going on, and you're just a vanilla human. Show some bloody respect, or that annoying environmentalist might just turn herself into a bear and eat you. There's also the fact that being a priest of a specific god in a polytheistic culture gets you very different recognition depending on how that particular person feels about that god. "Oh, you're a cleric of that peasant god, Pellor, aren't you? Why don't you go help out to the farms and help with their peasant problems" "Ach, ye expec' me to care about yer prissy elf gods. By Moradin's hammer, tha's a lark!" Etc.
@@rashkavar : In my world there is a honorific for priests (father or - depending on the east-european setting of the campaign 'batushka' ) as for mages 'Learned Sir/Lady' (don't know if 'learned' or 'academic' is the better translation. Depending on the actions of said priest / mage that honorific title may change to 'THAT'S HIM! BRING OUT THE TORCHES!'
In my campaign, clerics fulfill community functions in and around their temples. Deities with domains of healing would have hospital style temples, death gods handle corpses and rites for the otherwise unadministered, law deities' temples and clerics function very like Judge Dredd, and deities with mixed domains would have mixed temples. My cleric PC gets an awful lot of "Father" and "Your Honor", and the NPCs will listen when he speaks. Overall, I wanted the gods to have a real place in the world, especially since my campaign is very large in scope.
@@johntheherbalistg8756 That kind of thing is great. My argument isn't against giving respect to a cleric for what they do for the people, it's the argument that they should be respected inherently because they're priests of a specific deity. Getting respect from lesser acolytes within that deity's clergy, certainly. Respect from people who particularly honor that god, or see that god as playing a particularly important role in their lives (ie: farmers to a priest of the god of agriculture), sure. Respect from people who are actively benefiting from the activities of that priest's clergy, certainly. Respect for the armed stranger walking around talking about a god you have very little knowledge of? Not so much. I'd expect less hostility than you might get in specific real world possibilities- ie: a Muslim Imam walking around in late 12th century Britain armed, armoured and extolling the virtues of Allah, given that there's at least a common recognition of the reality of that priest's god in an active-deity scenario. But given that scenario probably ends in a mob lynching the poor man, that's really not saying much.
I was playing a Paladin of Augma, and my group at the time we were trying to restore the people of a city, and I forgot Augma's name, and a few days later was struck deaf, dumb, blind, and paralyzed for three weeks with the phrase "My name us Augma" set on repeat until the time was up.
It took me soo long to find a god I liked for my D&D character. I was looking through every pantheon book until I finally found one in the animal pantheon that fit her. I suppose it goes without saying, but you should really play to the dogma and tenants of your god. That's why it took me so long to find one that fit my character. The one I did end up choosing was Larue, the unicorn god: be a symbol of hope and always smile in the face of evil, etc etc. We had a priest of Mystra who thought he was a devout follower but did a piss-poor job of following Mystra's rules. One of our rogues worshipped Tymora and lived her dogma to a T, (by the end of the campaign became Saint of Tymora). So it's not just about praying and being pious. *It's a lifestyle, damnit!!* lol
I find it easier to work with the GM in making the pantheons so each player can have a god they (almost always) enjoy worshipping (even if they don't help the characters)
There is only one god Pelor and it is a vengeful god. At least when you are Cleric of Pelor its pretty handy because almost every human prays to Pelor. You can get lots of shit done with status as an instrument of most believed god.
That outro ^^ I fully agree with you, when you SEE everyday proof of the existence of gods, you wouldn't cross them. But there is an interesting point about faith to be made. Faith is you believing without proof (imo), so you wouldn't necessarily be faithfull but fearfull ; to pray with an agenda in mind. Just an idea, but i'll try to develop it, I believe it as potential
There is a lot of misconception about faith. Just as we do not have multiple single words to segregate the concept of love as the Greeks did (agape, phileo, eros, storge, pragma, philautia), so faith is used to convey multiple meanings. Faith is not all about unsupported belief. It embodies reliance and expectation of future behavior based on past behavior. It can also be about trusting while not fully understanding, as Guy describes concerning science in the video. Faith can be about holding on to the belief that the mind-bending supernatural proof that you experienced actually did happen, applies to you personally, and wasn't a hallucination, bad dream, or misinterpreted. How many times do you have to roll an 01 until it gets through to you? What is really happening when a deity does or doesn't do something and offers no explanation?
So I see 2 ways to go about this. 1: "Okay. An atheist doesn't make sense in this setting but an apatheist is more than doable" 2: "Okay. You are someone who rejects the reality around them for their own comfort. You are the fantasy equivalent to an anti-vaxer & are pitied & looked down upon as such" I would personally allow my player to choose one of these if they didn't want to take a patron or be a heretic or one of those characters that curse the gods outright.
There is a third way, written up by another commenter higher up. The Nagash path (see Warhammer). "You are someone who accepts that the gods exist, but believes that they require mortals more than mortals require them, they purposely try to keep mortals down to force mortals to worship them for support, and you actively try to cast them down so that they can't screw with humanity anymore." Also known as the antitheist path.
Why can't there be atheists in a world with gods?... There are theists in a world without gods... The majority of the world is theistic, and gods don't exist... Why can't the reverse also be true?
If a ritual is particularly long could be interesting to add that god's prayers offer respite to those faithful. Basically a time stop while praying, but no resting etc. while praying for mechanic abuse.
The gods do not speak to everyone. You could come from a Barbarian tribe where the only gods you believed in was whatever chose to grant you strength, whether or not that be a weird brew cooked up by a druid or The Aztec Gods of Fitness descending upon the heavens to teach you about the path of the Swole doesn't really matter.
They COULD speak to everyone. Everyone relevant to them at least. Be a helluva lot more interesting if you could just duck into a prayer and have a chat with them. Being gods, they should have the theoretical power to handle it.
Yep, I think it's ridiculous that we only tend to roleplay clerics and paladins as religious. I imagine most npc's in most d&d fantasy settings practice a faith of some sort to some degree even if they don't get a Channel Divinty power out of it.
My halfling sorceress was very religious unlike the paladin I was more on point with destroying shrines to very evil entities whilst he wanted to turn villains to his cause before killing them. So far they were bad guys but deliberately murdering them after they kept their word?
A good video. The trouble is, very few RPGs have any actual religions. That is to say, they probably have a list of gods, and maybe some holy symbols, but that's as far as it goes. No rituals, no vestments, no liturgy, no nothing. So either the GM has to do all that work themselves, or, more likely, they just don't bother. That, I suspect (besides the fact that there a lot more agnostics/atheists around) that Clerics, etc., get so little respect. Show, don't tell, is still the litmus test for good writing.
I might advise for 'The Dark Eye' - that one has books dedicated to the ingame-religions. It... has books on everything - that's the greatest advantage and the bane of the game :D But it has a really rich living world with lot's of descriptions and a love (some might say obsession) for details. Interacting cultures, history, (you'll find demon names that, slightly distorted were worshipped as gods in earlier times and so on). Downside is the overly complicated rule-system. But as for D&D - the same goes here: Make it your own game, kick out what you don't need, change what you think needs changed and be on your merry way :D
aonprd.com/DeitiesByGroup.aspx I swear by the archives of Nethys when it comes to a website that spells out the deities involved, since everything is neat organized and you usually get as much information as exists.
I've really been getting into D&D recently and I want to thank you for this video. It and videos like it have been allowing me to deepen and expand my knowledge and the richness of my play. Thanks a bunch!
Guy, you make great content. Thank you. I've just finished my first ever tabletop roleplay session, and you're inspiring me to bring a more compelling PC to the table. Ditching my D&D atheism now.
Ok your sense of humor is great and it's rare to meet someone who isn't derogatory towards people who believe in god irl. Looking forward to more content!
Great video, interesting topic to bring up. Ive seen a guy play a paladin of Lethander, and with a wonderful southern accent he constantly passed out tracts to other players, went into battle singing a hymn to Lethander, and encouraged players to give Lethander a go. It was very characterful and a lot of fun. Ive also built a half orc rogue whose back story includes being nearly killed by a priest of Shargas (half orc death god), so now my rogue is very anti religion, acts uncomfortable when another player mentions their god, and when swearing is usually being disrespectful of Shargas ('by Shargas hairy ballsack' etc) It think it can be used very well to be very flavourful for your character especially if their culture would be very influential.
Best interaction with an unreasonable nonbeliever in dnd was when they said in essence. Player: Hell is a story used to frighten children. When you die you die it’s done! There is no hell! Me, a tiefling: ...boi
So my game takes place after "god's fall", an epic war between the C'thonics and the Gods along with their Angelic followers. This war resulted in the deaths of the C'thonics and the Gods, and a host of the Angels. This resulted in the priesthoods of all the worshipers loosing their magical powers, until the remnant of the surviving Angelic Host took up the cause and lent the priests their power for healing, purification, and exorcism spells. Now, in order to perform Divine magic, a priest has to get in touch with an Angel and convince them to patronize you with their magic. The old priesthood of the gods still exists, but without magic their followers are disappearing and moving over to the new church of angel worshiping Clerics (and Paladins). The Church tries to promote "good", but is running into some theological trouble, as the clergy can't seem to agree on what the definition of Good should be exactly. This is causing a lot of trouble, along with more than a little bit of political back-biting within the church. As for the Angels, they have their hands full. They were created billions of years ago to regulate the flow of "the light" into the universe. Too little and life can't exist, too much and everything becomes super-charged with energy and starts to spontaneously combust. They also handle prayers, collecting them and sending them on their way to the correct supernatural recipient, sort of like a postal service for higher-level beings. They are also engaged in a several billion year old war with the Demons, over a dispute they'd rather keep kept out of the public eye. If one doesn't want to worship dead gods or angels, then one can alternatively speak with the fairies and gain nature magic from them. The Fey are generally benevolent, but also beings of chaos, who find it endlessly amusing to turn people into cows that produce chocolate milk for them to drink, and leave you like that for a century or two "because that's funny". They are true immortals, so they cannot die, nor can they kill. Even if their bodies are destroyed, they can just migrate back to the fairy realms and just reform their body anew. You do NOT want to ever piss off a fairy, as when they form a grudge, they can just keep coming back to harass you over and over, and nothing you can do will ever stop them. They can't kill you, but they will never stop harassing you, ruining your magic spells, spoiling potions, and trying to enchant you so they can drag you back with them to the fairy realms, from which you will never return. People who get a fairy as a patron can use nature magic, and they can "produce fertilizer" that is highly prized by farmers. Other cosmic powers who will lend people their magic are the Demons, who are engaged in an ancient and eternal war with the angels. Anyone who's played a D&D Warlock is familiar with this class. The Shades of Hades will grant people power over the shadows of their realm, allowing people to perform Necromancy, or "actually it's NecroThaumaturgury, but no one ever calls it that". Necromancy (shadow magic) allows entropic control, so you can speed up, or completely stop the aging process, as well as imbue a shade into a corpse so they can control it as an Undead minion. The Shades of Hades are fascinated with the mortal world, but have trouble interacting with it in their native form, so they require a host to interact with the physical world. Typically a corpse is used as that host, but a living body can work as well, though that requires sharing a body, which can cause trouble. Finally, there are the gods, who are dead. Any player with a lick of sense will realize one thing: That leaves a job opening.
I had a character once that had a thing before battle. He was a sorcerer, and when he decided that the gloves were coming off, he started his "power chants". Some arcane phrases that had no mechanical benefit, but he believed it made his magic more powerful. He didn't pay any attention to the gods, but that part reminded me of him. He did believe in the gods, swore with their names and would even drop a few coins in at shrines, but he didn't devote himself to any gods
I super agree with this perspective - a world with demonstrated Godly occurrences it's a great opportunity to have characters with faith. I've mainly played within Pathfinder's pantheon and one of the interesting elements of characterisation is how the character interprets their God and incorporates that God's ideals, goals, or philosophies into their lives. If you grow up with parents worshipping the deity of farming and thus you do too, then you become an adventurer, it's going to impact what you value, how you behave, and probably how you relate to the story and story world. We've never had a mechanic associated with it either; churches just impacts the world we're playing in so much that it becomes part of the rich fabric of the story.
Raising her hands, fingers and thumbs lightly press together to form a circle around her silver pendant in the shape of a sword , "May the Dark Maiden's Song touch your Heart and bring you Joy."
THAT was hilarious! I mean, 'Hit the like, ...' All good points. Just beware that for those not on any spirituality path, religious themes can easily turn into parody. There is a way to avoid that. In my nation's (Latvian) fairytales, God often reciprocates disguised as an old man, giving the heroes perhaps an odd thing - which later saves the day. What are the requirements for that? Not the rituals, no. A true religion has moral codes and ethical principles the heroes are expected to follow. Combined with dedicating their deeds to the object of their worship. Which can be represented either as a gesture before fight, like you mentioned - or as shouting out a phrase or name. In the spiritual tradition I personally follow, though, there is a saying: 'It is not so difficult to see God; much harder to make Him notice you'. Bringing God's attention to the themselves, the heroes can really get a heap of fate points. :)
It's also worth considering that some settings have pantheons of gods that don't demand to be worshiped exclusively. In the Forgotten Realms, you have to have a "patron deity" (and your devotion to this deity determines what happens to your soul when you die), but if you pray to a different god, your patron deity (probably) won't get mad. Even if someone is a devout follower of Lathander, they might pray to Tyr before a trial, or make an offering to Umberlee before a sea voyage.
True but what proof was there of the Force in the day to day life? And what proof was there that it was anything more than an energy field? The Jedi were long gone by Solo's time after all.
And their order had been vilified and generally erased by the Galactic Empire. All Solo is likely to have had are old battle stories (which he could easily dismiss as exaggerated) about Yoda. But then again that's also kind of just an incongruity between the originals and the prequels :P But two decades of absolute power is a long time for the Empire to malign the order. Wouldn't even be that difficult, the Jedi were genuinely messed up and flawed as an organisation.
One thing to consider: in a polytheistic culture, most people would not be bound to a specific god, at least not in a profound way. In some polytheistic cultures, worship of a chief god was common - Zeus/Jupiter in the Greco-Roman theme, for example - while others had differing hierarchies depending on where you were - the Norse, for example, generally held Odin, Thor, or Freyr as their chief god, but which of those three varied widely. People working a specific profession tended to privately worship the god of that profession even if they were not highest in the overall hierarchy of gods - the warrior elite of Sparta, for example, worshiped Ares alongside Zeus. And more sophisticated individuals often mixed up their name drops - a king of the Danes might worship Odin directly (ie: visiting the temple and doing whatever a worshiper of Odin does, but pray to Thor for assistance in battle during a speech, or Freyr to bring rains to his drought stricken lands in time to save the harvest while holding court and being asked for help by some poor farmer. I'd also suggest that it's a reasonable extension that in a less organized pantheon such as many of those found in role-playing universes - those in which there is no chief god, or are several chief gods - one for the elves, one for the dwarves, the gnomes, the halflings, etc - that people might use much more varied forms of praise in general. (Real world polytheistic pantheons tend to have a built in hierarchy because the gods are either a mythical species that traces back to a unified origin (Norse mythology), exist in a society that uses that structure to justify its mortal leaders' right to rule (Egyptian mythology), or some combination of the two (Greco-Roman mythology) - I deliberately leave out modern polytheistic religions because I know of only two and what little I know about them is so minute that it's nigh inconceivable that I would not say something offensively wrong about them, and unlike the ones I did use, there's actually people who follow those religions to be offended by my ignorance.) Most fiction I've read that has such chaotic pantheons tends have characters swearing by multiple gods or none, unless they actively follow a specific deity. Which leads me to the one big exception to this: priests. D&D's clerics follow a specific god to the point of being granted the ability to enact several minor miracles per day - most systems have some equivalently super-devout class or archetype, as far as I know - at least among those where deities form a core aspect of the setting. (Though in fairness, the religion could be along the lines of the Song of Ice and Fire one, where a priest of the 7 gods acts as a representative of all of them, rather than a single deity in absence of the others.)
@@theboredlich215 "Toutatis" is a Gallic god often quoted in the "Asterix" comics, a well-known comics series in France about a small Gallic village being the last to resist against the Roman invader.
Here's something I've never seen done to completion when it comes to playing characters with "religious" backgrounds: Have the characters follow completely different sets of gods. I don't mean just "Have the Elves follow the Elven gods, have the Dwarves follow the Dwarven gods, etc.", I mean completely unconnected sets of gods. Maybe the Elves follow the standard set of Elven gods from the player's guide, but the Humans follow the Egyptian gods, the Orcs follow the Norse gods, the Dwarves have a monotheistic religion, etc. Make stuff weird for the game by making it more normal by our standards. In my opinion, the conflicts between the various races are more tangible when they're all followers of fundamentally incompatible religions that are all completely valid and accurate in the setting. The Orcs fight because fighting is a way to let the gods show which side they favor. The Dwarves fight because their god commands them to spread its word to the heathens and convert them to the one true path. The Humans fight because their Emperor is the physical embodiment of their chief god, and he's demanding more territory. The Elves fight because they have to fight back against all the crazy people that believe the fairy tales told to them by their ancestors, but won't accept that the immortal people that have flawless recall of their past lives were literally born from the blood of a god. And they're all right. It sounds sort of crazy, and I'm sure it'd be difficult to accomplish with a diverse party, but our world somehow manages to have multiple religions simultaneously without everyone always being at everyone's throats or having humanity completely wipe itself off the face of the planet, so a fantasy world with magic and objective proof of the existence of gods should have no problem with it.
This actually makes more sense of the PHB section listing all the gods. The impression from there is that each setting has discrete gods, with those from another setting being in a completely different universe. I've not played the game, only watched UA-cam and did some online research. Your idea has a lot of merit.
When you said, "if there is something that exists out there that does have a provable influence over your life but you don't believe in it", I was instantly reminded of American politics. Sorry for bringing politics into it. Great videos! Love the content. :)
Dont agree all the way, but you make a lot of good points. I think a non-religious character is perfectly valid, even in a world like most D&D settings where the existence of gods is nothing less than fact. Firstly, not worshipping a god doesnt mean not believing in the gods. You wouldn't say that a Tempus worshipper doesnt believe in the existence of Umberlee, right? The non-religious character, just like in the real world, only goes one god further than most people. So I agree that giving your character a religion and some rituals based around that can add depth, but that certainly isnt the only way to bring them to life. And on the opposite end being nonreligious can also make for an interesting character, by giving your character a reason to not believe in gods. Maybe your character always rolls their eyes whenever someone wishes them "Blessings of Brighty the Sunboy upon you" maybe they occasionally remark on how someone is wasting their time praying to that pompous, self-important jerk of a glorified celestial. They acknowledge that the gods are real, but where were they when i spent most of my life as a slave being whipped and abused by some noble from that country of devil-worshippers. Don't dismiss the non-religious character so easily.
once had a player who wanted to play an atheist, in the same party as a priest character (favored soul), during the play priest player led them to a sacred spring for cleansing tainted corruption. The clerics told them they needed to pray for healing. The Atheist decided to "fake it" and the patron of healing took notice.... it did not end well.
Why did the God take notice? Is that God so vain that someone that doesn't worship him/her is such an outrage that they just have to go down there and make a point about it? That must be a God that must be on the war path all the time since there is so many believers of other Gods. Why should a God care about someone that is socially pressured into making a prayer to a God they do not serve or worship? If I was that God I should just.... "Oh. There is a unbeliever there being forced into a prayer to me by one of my worshipers.... Why should I care? If I do something about it I just make his life worse, I can do without him if he doesn't want to follow me."
Cloud Seeker, well, that is an interesting set of assumptions, not terribly unreasonable ones considering most pantheons. These gods had jobs overseeing both natural tasks and exceptions to their spheres of responsibility on behalf of their boss deity. They weren’t worshipped they worked for the boss deity. Cosmic middle management. By going to the sacred pool and engaging in pseudo prayer was like a crank call to tech support only you are holding them on the line by doing so in the sacred pool.
@@evilallensmithee Lets put this into perspective using your example. It isn't a prank call since they are forced into it. If you force me to prank call someone and they come and it turns out you forced me, who do you think is in trouble for that prank call? It isn't going to be me who have been forced to do it against my will. In your case your worshiper should have been punished for prank calling their God. Why should I be punished for wasting the Gods time when you forced people into wasting your Gods time? You are the culprit here and not me.
A great video, just one thing I noticed in my RPG groups and noticed in Your video as well... Why should a person outside of a religious profession choose one god? I think that is simply because we live in a monotheistic society. But in a polytheistic society most people dont choose one god, they believe in all of them and worship all of them. One minute they thank the god of luck that the carriage missed them, the other moment they pray to the god of fertility for a good harvest. You either believe in all of the gods and worship (or at least fear) all of them, or none of them. You can have one favorite god and when You are a priest You choose the one god You are a servant of, but You still believe in and worship the other gods.
My character was an academic of whom didnt believe in a deity until at level 12, a paladin called upon Meliki, and an ethereal unicorn appeared and led the party to someone in distress. I made it a point to build 'finding out gods are real' into the characters actions after that point. At level 20, the character was chosen as an avatar of the god Selune to settle a dispute between deities because thats the direction the campaign went.
Funnily enough, one of my characters (not a very actively religious one at that) used the "Our Lord and Savior Bahamut" line to have a conversation opener to knock on a door he wanted to peek behind.
I really like to integrate Gods in my games (as GM or Player). My two favourite characters are in shadowrun a nordic banshee that acts as the highpriest of hel and has her little rituals like telling anyone she gonna kill "I'll present you to the mighty and only true ruler of your soul, may she be forgiving where I ain't" (that's my coplayers clue for shit is hitting the fan now really fast) and my DnD druid whorshipping mother Gaia and the element, her most known ritual is doing pyre burials and chanting "from life, to death, from fire to wind, through water to earth, regrow as life, everlasting in the circle!" (on occasions only the mid part "from fire to wind through water to earth) And as a GM I really like it when player invest into deitys (real or absent) that realy brings so much more flavour than a punch of "naahh don't need da gods"-players.
Also, I love that you say your religion is science. It's far more honest than many who say they have no religion, but really science is their religion.
Here's an idea for believing in a god in ttrpg. Your character has done something to anger a god so as a consequence, the god curses you. Possible outcomes of this could be that you have to adjust your play style to accommodate the curse, you have to pray and make offerings to the god (food, ale or even blood of your enemies every day) or it could even force a chaotic evil into playing somewhat nice with a group giving reason for that character to actually be in the group instead of trying to kill them and making off with their stuff.
the only part of the game my dm allowed for me to interact with my characters god was a blessing on her bow.... i have to throw a percentile die and if I get a 00 the shot and damage is blessed. but nothing else so far... not even for the paladin... i think its sad
It is sad. Religion really is one of those subjects you are completely dependent on the gm actually portraying religion as an active part of the world. Especially if it is organized religion.
Hey, just wanted to note you gave me a cool idea to have a character who is questing to write the bible of their god. In a game that could be a super interesting character angle on the side of a main plot
Well in a setting where the gods are real you can have a character who just thinks that they aren't all powerful. That's why he doesn't believe in them.
A couple of points that came up for me, reflecting on the games I've played over the years: 1) There's a difference between a character believing a god or gods exist, and actively worshiping them. The worship is a kind of contract, but your gods can happily go on influencing your world even if the characters never actually interact with them... Also from a practical standpoint, having played with new atheists for whom D&D was once a terrifying taboo, and a girlfriend who grew up in an abusively strict Calvinist family, I'd be suuuuuper wary of throwing even a fictional Pascal's Wager at my players without having a quiet, private conversation first. 2) Anti-theism in a world where gods are unequivocally real opens up a whole universe of interesting narratives. The Divinity games explored this, as did the first Dragon Age... And it's an important consideration when you're world-building, this question of whether the Gods create overall more misery than good as they play out their petty squabbles (or noble causes) on the mortal plane. I mean, if your world has multiple pantheons, and they're *all* real, how does that play out? Do they fight? Do they share? Are minds or souls a resource they're competing for? 3) The gods in many fantasy worlds seem to be racial, or have racial biases... For example the gods of the Dwarven mountain-homes being different from the gods of man, or the fey deities of harvest and hearth that Halflings might pay tribute to... Or to take it a step further the Elder or Ancient races like the Elves may not, in fact, have any gods; being borne directly from the same source of godhood that the mortal races require intercedents or interlocutors for. For once I feel like this whole approach of "You've gotta have one" puts the proverbial cart before the horse. It shouldn't be on the players to just pick a god from a list, unless they're specifically interested in doing that... If a GM wants to explore narratives around religion, godliness or ritual then they should just DO that... Have the gods start manipulating events or setting stories in motion. Give a character visions, or guidance accompanied by religious symbolism. Have the characters stumble into a ritual and unwittingly complete it, or disrupt it... That sort of thing. And you can slowly ramp up the obviousness until the players are like "Hey!... Waaaaait a minute!?"
I am personally an aetheist but I do have 3 strongly religious characters. The most Prominent one would be my Shadowrun character Father Paladin. Paladin isn't actual name, just a shadowrunner handle, but he does run a legitimate church and has a low income lifestyle. He carefully plans out his budget and how much will be enough to cover his modest church, equipment, and barebones lifestyle essentials. Everything else he puts towards charity and helping reinvest into the community because he believes that Christ would want it that way. Granted he slides a bit on the "thou shalt not kill" business but whatever. He is a shepherd of his flock and one of the duties of a shepherd is to fight off the wolves.
I really identify with being called a Satanist, and countering with "to believe in Satan, you have to believe in a religion, by default". It never worked for me. this episode hits home for me, even though I may have missed the point.
I chose my character's gods based on his backstory, and also because it's just juicy to have a dhampir who prays to Kelemvor (who famously HATES undead), Lathander (who also hates undead and probably hates vampires a little bit more), and Selûne (started out okay, not so much after he got himself cursed with lycanthropy). His prayers to Lathander are mostly thanks because, in the first dawn after being killed by a vampire and returned to unlife as a dhampir, he expected to be destroyed by the rising sunlight. When the light didn't destroy him, he took it as a sign of Lathander's mercy, and genuinely thanks him every sunrise for yet another day. His prayers to Selûne are for guidance, mostly, because he first rose after death under the light of a full moon (shout out to old vampire literature). Now he asks for help to control his lycanthropy, because if she guides and protects kind-hearted lycanthropes, he needs the help. And when he prays to Kelemvor, it's to ask him to guide the spirits of the dead to the next world, and also for forgiveness due to his unfortunate undead state.
Hmmm. Lots of thoughts on this one: Including the dimension of belief in our character's story will certainly result in a deeper tale. Even the lack of belief is a belief, opening questions of why that belief, how and when did it come about, who was involved, what is believed, etc. Guy's personal Science example was excellent, and goes along with my point of objection: believers (even in a fantasy setting with objective benefits) don't believe BECAUSE of those benefits, but have access to those benefits BECAUSE of belief. Guy's belief in science helps him make sense of the world, relate to the world, and to others in the world. Faith of any type does this for believers. Faith in science, democracy, constitutional monarchy, community, the good in people, the evil in people, logic, law, profit, and religions do that for those with those beliefs. Our characters will be the same, viewing their world through various lenses. Paying attention to those lenses will help us tell better stories. Believers do not pick a deity based on the deities UTILITY (Players do, which is a whole metagame issue). The faith and worship of a deity should emerge out of the culture the character is in, the experiences the character has (mundane or sacred), merging with the character, their outlook, backstory, profession, etc. I would argue that IF a Deity found believers only paying lip service to the tenants of the faith, only focused on the powers of the faith & the utility of the faith, progressive intervention would be undertaken until the worshiper gained insight, or was dead. **** SPOILERS**** for Save or Dice, and an episode of The Adventures of the Windswift: What was Barnabas' offense? Accusing his God of having no use: "Brax, you are USELESS!" after having just prayed to him for help. The statement was not the main problem; the attitude behind the statement betrayed a fundamental misunderstanding of religion, faith, and the role of the faithful. This was totally the opposite of Blaxton's prayer, in which he asked for the strength and skill to enact Brax's Judgement upon a certain Duke. Had Blaxton failed, he would have assumed it was his lack, not this god's. Including a faith dimension as part of a character arch is probably the most interesting way of developing this facet of the story. The other players and their beliefs can influence your character. Events in the campaign can influence your character's development. My long term character (a mage) was from earth, was religious, but felt the "gods" on the world he found himself were just another form of "magic". Part of his story arch was understanding where this "magic" came from. It was after about 2 years of playing that he witnessed an in-game miracle, and admitted that perhaps there was some truth to these gods, apart from cultural norms. Over time, religion became more important to the character, and his story. At the same time, on the same journey, our Druidic players found their faith tested and challenged as they learned the underpinnings of the "natural world" was not as natural as they had believed. One player got rather depressed, feeling betrayed by her faith. Treading gently with all of this is critical. Depending on the DM, players may be concerned about religion being used more as a negative (you have sinned), rather than a positive story element. The players experience with faith in real life will also color their perception. It was very interesting in the recent Windswift episode Hope Lost two of the player characters, and two of the NPCs struggling with their perceptions of the gods' role in their world.
I've always included Odin (as a deity of both Wisdom and War, though sometimes more of one than the other, depending on the world and campaign flavor) in my pantheons ever since I started DMing in '96. My longtime group (well, a couple of individuals within said group) made one joke that has stood the test of time while talking to a Paladin of Odin way back in the late 90's as a "method of greeting:" They covered one eye with a hand while maintaining eye contact with the faithful they're speaking to. At the time, I hated the joke because it felt like they absolutely just made fun of that Paladin's deity and should have been smitten [smote!?] on the spot, especially since they weren't exactly being respectful or even god-fearing. I admit that it didn't help that Odin has been one of my favorite deities from any real-life pantheon since childhood, especially thanks to his appearance in my favorite Final Fantasy games (namely 4 and 6, though 7 is an honorable mention). Now, while the more fanatical followers might actually challenge someone who makes that gesture, I generally roleplay that many of the faithful (even some Paladins) take it in stride with good humor, having seen it many times in the past. :) Another Odin-related joke is that when the faithful of Odin touch someone for the purpose of healing, they actually hit them hard while screaming "THE POWER OF ODIN COMPELS YOU TO MEND YOUR WOUNDS!" or something similar. Yeah, a rare few of my NPC Paladins do that now, and not all of them follow Odin. :)
I have this goliath barbarian who believes in and worships the goddess Auril. She doesn't really revere the goddess, it's more that she's kinda terrified of her, given that as a goliath my character would have witnessed the dangers of very harsh winters first-hand. Even though she no longer lives in the mountains that trauma has followed her, and so she's always leaving sacrifices out for Auril and trying not to speak ill of her/do anything that might offend her, especially in winter months. Idk, I love the idea of characters who don't belong to 'religious classes' (like clerics and paladins) still having religious beliefs. Kind of connects them a little more to the worth regardless of whether the gods in question exist or not.
I appreciate your recognizing that "believing in science" is still, structurally speaking, a religion. Thank you for refraining from the standard naturalist's contempt.
I remember my last character was a Life Cleric who worshipped Pelor, and was abandoned by Pelor due to doing necromancy in an attempt to bring back their dead wife. His story was supposed to be a redemption story where he worked over the course of the campaign to gain Pelor's favor again by healing with his own hands and resurrecting a person without zombifying them. Another character in our campaign, a Paladin, also worshipped Pelor. He was a Domination Paladin who crushed hope out if people and wanted to militarize the church and use Pelor's name to rule and dominate the lands. Needless to say this flyes atleast *partially* against what Pelor represents. The thing that set me off one day and stopped me playing that character was when we were both in town preparing. I prayed to Pelor and as expected received no message due to my actions. Wheb the paladin prayed instead, he immediately found that his weapons and armor were blessed by Pelor, assumeably approving of his actions. Next session I dumped my cleric and told the DM if Pelor was ok with slaughter and warmongering then he would probably be ok with necromancy and my past experimentation, which completely ruined my characters concept.
As always, I really enjoyed the video and the insights that you've provided, Guy. I'm very sorry that your sunday school more or less disowned you for asking questions and thinking about religion in an analytical and critical way. As a christian, I am constantly see how God uses science and logic to dictate the world. I see Him in math and I see Him in nature. I believe that if you can't explain and have arguments as to why you believe in something, then you don't have a very valid belief (that was a lot of uses of the word "belief").
I like the approach of Kobold Press. Their setting explains that the gods are all worshipped pseudonyms and this is common knowledge. Those pseudonyms can be stolen and traded and fabricated. This means that all worship is dependent on the faith that your chosen gods are more or less who they say they are. Or even on the belief that you can outsmart the gods at their own game by playing them against each other under their chosen pseudonyms. I like that system a lot, because it makes gods both more mysterious as well as more approachable. The masks offer a layer of separation from absolutes so that drama has a better chance.
Stumpt’s campaign Hero Squad has an atheistic paladin. His parents pushed him into the career. He thinks divine power comes from the stars and the universe rather than from some living entity. The player does a great job of using this background when appropriate without forcing his character’s views on other characters.
my goliath barbarian canibal would (i have decided just now) take a bite out of the heart of one slain opponent, to gain some of his or her power, and then offer the rest to his god, through some other way. maybe burning, so it becomes smoke, and can drift up into the heavens, idk. just thought of it. :)
“Why your character should be god fearing” My answer: direct intervention by the gods in this world, in favor or against the players. Based on wether they follow them or not. Kinda like in Greek myths, like with the battle of Troy, or the transformation of Medusa, and stuff. I mean, they were even betting on who would win a few times or directly took sides.
Did anyone else laugh a lot during the video? It was great as always, but I think Guy can be very funny XD. "They (the gods) need to have good PR" hahahahaha
Had a game once where the whole party was religious. Had a war cleric, a divine hunter, a wizard, and a psychic detective who was married to a cleric. It became a party thing to always stop in local temples to find shrines. The war cleric and the divine hunter were active parts of the temple structure and would spend an "hour in prayer" at dawn every day. The psychic detective was more lax in his practices when away from his wife and more active when with her. Further he was a bit less resolute in his morality. The wizard was more devout, but less ritualistic. Later the party was joined by a paladin and a bard. The bard was a first time player who also chose a deity. The paladin I wrote in as sent by the wife of the psychic detective to protect him. The campaign was a lot of fun. Over time the party became more and more integrated with their local temple. And eventually there were visions and visits that would occur at different times. The psychic detective got to have a crisis of faith when his god asked him about his devotion. The wizard was offered a choice in power when he became strong enough to be interesting to his deity. Having quiet moments of awe and wonder for the PCs was a great time.
if i'm not making a very religious man i usually just go with a deity from the list that best fits him. my rouge who causes plenty of trouble for the party will start following loki and have the CG alignment (i pick these kinds of things after PC creation, makes it so "i'm following my alignment" but "this is what my PC does as shown before"
there's a character in my science fiction setting whom is an android who is absolutely fanatical in devotion to the god of creation. a god which is literally worshiped via prayer and tinkering at the same time. she is almost always either fighting someone or tinkering. she's an artificer
In the 41+ years I've gamed, all we've done is picked a god, wrote it on the character sheet, and forgot about it. I've played characters who were clerics who have gone farther, to the consternation of other players and GM. But that is the exception rather than the rule.
My next character is going to be a dragonborn paladin of bahamut, whose ultimate goal is become a dragon. Yknow, the BIG kind. He believes that if he is faithful to Bahamut and earns his favor, he can become, like, bahamut's personal guard or something. Haven't fleshed it out with my DM yet, but I will soon.
Im just now looking into playing D&D and i have watched some videos on how you can technically become a demi god without breaking any D&D rules ( thos of course comes down to the DM and what they allow )
I had a character in a Legend of Zelda homebrew who, as a goron, followed Din, the Goddess of Power (and fire and shadow and earth and probably some other things). He wasn't very bright though, and didn't really get how the whole "worshiping" thing is supposed to go. He saw Din more as a really powerful guy (he also didn't get the whole "gender" thing) who deserved respect because of how awesome he was. This character would pay his respects at a temple of Din by going in, loudly and cheerfully greeting the most prominent depiction of his goddess, and leaving. He also had this cultural quirk where he would show deference to the queen by clapping a fist to his chest. Unfortunately, he was rather enthusiastic about everything he did, so I usually ended up punching myself in the chest. It started to get a bit tender as the campaign wore on.
How might you work up a personal ritual for a character? I have a character that would worship The Moonweaver but have no idea how to go about to make that worship more bound to my character
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In a fantasy setting, sometimes it makes no sense to be an atheist, but you can be God defiant, like so many greek characters, or just someone who doesn't care that much, and then it could lead to a story where this or that God wants to punish you, teach you a lesson. Or maybe the PC starts to discover his faith through his journey, and the GM is working to put these signs of divine presence or interference.
Hey, Guy, just wanted to point out something. But you actually were being accurately labeled when you said you're a Satanist. Satanists believe in neither God nor the Devil. They believe in human agency and sovereignty. They're pretty much atheists who make a point of ethics and morals not being religious currency alone. The term Satanist is merely there to aggravate Christians and to spark challenging conversation.
There's a really good meme out about this that says "If Satanists don't believe in the devil, then what do you call people who do?" and the answer is "Christian".
in harry dresden exist a character how is a knight of the cross, and is atheist... the point is the arc angel gabriel gave him his sword, and after he was questioned about by Harry, he is now a agnostic becaus he is not realy sure about the fact
that the sword he uses to fight has been given to him by a true angel... realy funny character by the way
Best role playing cleric I saw was a guy running a cleric of Groetus, apoc god, the skull moon God of the end. The other players were suspicious of him, that he would bring on real chaos, and there were end of the world prophecies that were causing the other players to be concerned.
The apoc cleric laughed. He pointed to all of the chaos the players had caused, monsters they unleashed, wars they started, he thought THEY would bring about the end of the world.
He laughed again, explaining he didn't have to do anything. They sweated.
Reminded of a joke I once encountered...
We love the Sun God!
He is the Fun God!
Ra, Ra, Ra!
Who Ra!
Wait.
Heh. Gonna steal it if don't mind.
"... And we'll have
Fun, fun, fun,
'til Lathander takes your longsword away..."
“He says gods like to see an atheist around. Gives them something to aim at.” - Terry Pratchett, Small Gods.
I've just started re-reading my Discwold novels after many years. Maybe Small Gods will be the second book in this endeavor.
God created gays because God is bi-curious
Depending on how high up the god is, they're likely an atheist themselves. They don't have any faith or belief in a god above them after all.
Totally agree. As a player I am an atheist, but my character not believing in the very entity that grants him magical powers is just daft.
Likewise he would also believe in the many entities that grant power to his enemies or allies, since eldritch-blast to the backside hurts whether you believe in it or not :)
Even while being atheist I like to play my characters in D&D and similar settings always with at least having one god they believe in, since they are actually forces that have impact on the world. Some of them are even a little zealous in their faith, even if they don't get any power from it. Like, when you worship a good god and you are facing constant demons and winning against all odds, you end up thinking the god is helping you somehow so maybe in the next town it's time to pay a visit to the church.
Atheism in a fantasy world doesn't really make too much sense. The gods are objectively real (at least D&D gods are). There are three tropes that come into play here. Pick your favorite.
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NayTheist
For if you don't believe the gods aren't worthy of worship.
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlatEarthAtheist
If your character is delusional and refuses to believe in the gods talking to you aren't real.
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SufficientlyAdvancedAlien
If the "gods" are real, but they aren't actually gods, and don't care if you worship them or not.
@@joshuarichardson6529 playing NayThheist is fun, some of my character just worship/follow a patron, master, teacher or lord
@@zhoupact8567 I like some of this and have played some homebrew stuff like this in previous editions. Can be interesting but can be very hair-raising.
I'm Christian and my warforged/synthetic characters In Sci fi settings are generally full blown adeptus mechanicus, if I can't get away with playing a race like that in a setting my character generally avoids religion but obviously believes in it. I just really love the idea of a fanatical artificer
My characters generally take the stance of The Wizards of Terry Pratchett's Discworld. Out of 'Reaper Man':
"Wizards don't believe in gods in the same way that most people don't find it necessary to believe in, say, tables. They know they're there, they know they're there for a purpose, they'd probably agree that they have a place in a well-organised universe, but they wouldn't see the point of believing, of going around saying "O great table, without whom we are as naught." Anyway, either the gods are there whether you believe in them or not, or exist only as a function of the belief, so either way you might as well ignore the whole business and, as it were, eat off your knees.”
Pratchett quote=instant like :) I remember a scene in one of the books where they generally are very respectful in a vague manner because while powerful and prideful, they don't like to be vaporized by a random lighting bolt.
The OP can be summed up with sentence: "Not everyone is a preacher"
A good video, as always. I think if someone plays an "atheist" in D&D or any other setting where Gods are real, the example of an "atheist" in a fantasy setting is Nagash from Warhammer. In the Nagash series he knows that gods are real, he knows they have power but he does not worship them. He believes they are entities which are dependent upon humanity for their existence and in turn give their priests "miracles," and he even speculates that they intentionally keeping humanity down. If someone plays an "atheist" in a setting where gods are a thing, they should play like that. Acknowledge the existence of gods, just don't worship them. Plot to get rid of them and take their crowns for your own. Granted, such a character would usually be evil but I can definitely see it being done in a way to make it so the character is a hero and the gods are evil.
I have a character who does just that :)
You can also play them where they don't believe them to be gods but to be like a super powerful wizard or a more powerful kind of djinn like creature
Here's another way of looking at it. An "atheist" character in D&D/any other setting where gods are real doesn't believe in them because he's uneducated. Now, why would that be the case? Well simple, he's uneducated and believes that the Miracles and acts done by clerics and others are simply their way of explaining how they use their magic. While Wizards study, the religious people think their own magic power is their gods giving them that power when it is really themselves unlocking it, and thus making the moments when a cleric or priest loses power entirely a placebo effect. Maybe uneducated's not the right word. Perhaps it'd be more like, they don't see the proof of gods existing when they see the proof of magic first if that makes sense.
@@worldwar1flyingace645 Ooh. Is he/she a necromancer as well?
@@hysterical5408 Or maybe the individual could think the two spell casting methods come from the same thing. Think about it, a sufficiently powerful wizard could say they are the prophet of a god, real or made up, and pass their magic off as miracles. I think in Pathfinder there is a wizard who is passing himself off as a god to run a country.
Its worth pointing out that there are flat earthers and anti-vaxers. It could be interesting to play a character that had no keening, refused to believe any magic existed and just had the observation skills of a goldfish,
*Always happens to be facing the wrong way when a fireball goes off*
*Creates elaborate conspiracies to justify his perspective*
etc..
That smells like comedy gold right there!
@@StarboyXL9 That smells like 'the group kills this character faster, than the constantly lying, scheming and PC-pickpocketing Tiefling, who is also annoying as hell' :D
But comedy gold none the less as long as it's good for :D
"I've never seen a god, just a bunch of people in robes telling us that they get their magic powers from gods. Clearly, they're just arcane casters who are running an elaborate ruse so that they become rich on the offerings we give to the gods they've invented."
@@ashtonkerr6276 meanwhile in 5e the gods draw their power from worship, so if they gain enough followers to believe that trickery, they would become real honest to goodness dieties.
I'm serious, that's a completely valid, 100% canon way of achieving godhood in D&D.
It would vary how difficult it would be from DM to DM, and various other factors, but it's easier than most other methods presented so far in the official D&D material.
@@auroralaruam and it's a surefire way to get a deity's attention if you actively undermine belief in them. :-} At least if you're at least moderately successful...
Guy starts talking about a controversial religious subject
Me: raises eyebrows
Guy: but we won't go there
Me: Smiles
Thank you for making this great video. This is one of my favourite channels on youtube right now, and if I had much money I would support you on patreon. This deserves way more support then it gets.
Your kind words support the channel too! I appreciate it.
I've never seen a Dungeon Master handle clerics correctly. He's a PRIEST for gods sake! He should be given a higher level of respect by NPCs than other adventures. Father, Your Grace, Your Honor ( ST. Cuthbert ) or some other honorific should be used when addressing them. NPCs of the same or allied faith should view them more favorably. Players of course have their own obligations when playing clerics. Flavor presents itself for this class. Use it.
I have my cleric PC address other clerics with their titles. That being said, I can see a cleric's party members just calling them by their name anyway, since they know them personally.
I strenuously disagree. A cleric should be granted respect by NPCs, yes, but so should the guy who can point at things and make everything within 20 feet of that point explode. Or the guy who throws around more money in an afternoon than they've seen in their entire life (which is how most settings seem to handle their economies).
Very *different* kinds of respect, certainly. But honestly, in a world of magic, active gods, warriors with the skill to take down 20 peasants single handedly even if they're armed and he's not...every NPC should be very wary of every stranger they meet. It's kinda like being a normal in the Marvel universe - you've got superheroes, supervillains, mutants and all that jazz going on, and you're just a vanilla human. Show some bloody respect, or that annoying environmentalist might just turn herself into a bear and eat you.
There's also the fact that being a priest of a specific god in a polytheistic culture gets you very different recognition depending on how that particular person feels about that god. "Oh, you're a cleric of that peasant god, Pellor, aren't you? Why don't you go help out to the farms and help with their peasant problems" "Ach, ye expec' me to care about yer prissy elf gods. By Moradin's hammer, tha's a lark!" Etc.
@@rashkavar : In my world there is a honorific for priests (father or - depending on the east-european setting of the campaign 'batushka' ) as for mages 'Learned Sir/Lady' (don't know if 'learned' or 'academic' is the better translation.
Depending on the actions of said priest / mage that honorific title may change to 'THAT'S HIM! BRING OUT THE TORCHES!'
In my campaign, clerics fulfill community functions in and around their temples. Deities with domains of healing would have hospital style temples, death gods handle corpses and rites for the otherwise unadministered, law deities' temples and clerics function very like Judge Dredd, and deities with mixed domains would have mixed temples. My cleric PC gets an awful lot of "Father" and "Your Honor", and the NPCs will listen when he speaks.
Overall, I wanted the gods to have a real place in the world, especially since my campaign is very large in scope.
@@johntheherbalistg8756 That kind of thing is great. My argument isn't against giving respect to a cleric for what they do for the people, it's the argument that they should be respected inherently because they're priests of a specific deity. Getting respect from lesser acolytes within that deity's clergy, certainly. Respect from people who particularly honor that god, or see that god as playing a particularly important role in their lives (ie: farmers to a priest of the god of agriculture), sure. Respect from people who are actively benefiting from the activities of that priest's clergy, certainly. Respect for the armed stranger walking around talking about a god you have very little knowledge of? Not so much.
I'd expect less hostility than you might get in specific real world possibilities- ie: a Muslim Imam walking around in late 12th century Britain armed, armoured and extolling the virtues of Allah, given that there's at least a common recognition of the reality of that priest's god in an active-deity scenario. But given that scenario probably ends in a mob lynching the poor man, that's really not saying much.
"Help me Brax!!! I've been your loyal servant grant me the power to save you! To save everything!!"
(No response)
"You're useless"
(Jazz stops)
Yes, that scene should go down in gaming history!
"Krom, I've never prayed to you before. I don't have the tounge for it..."
moukidelmar *Crom
"Grant me my wish, or go to hell"
"I'm pissed off now, Jobu. Look, I go to you. I stick up for you. You no help me now. I say "Fuck you Jobu", I do it myself. " - Pedro Cerrano
I was playing a Paladin of Augma, and my group at the time we were trying to restore the people of a city, and I forgot Augma's name, and a few days later was struck deaf, dumb, blind, and paralyzed for three weeks with the phrase "My name us Augma" set on repeat until the time was up.
It took me soo long to find a god I liked for my D&D character. I was looking through every pantheon book until I finally found one in the animal pantheon that fit her. I suppose it goes without saying, but you should really play to the dogma and tenants of your god. That's why it took me so long to find one that fit my character. The one I did end up choosing was Larue, the unicorn god: be a symbol of hope and always smile in the face of evil, etc etc. We had a priest of Mystra who thought he was a devout follower but did a piss-poor job of following Mystra's rules. One of our rogues worshipped Tymora and lived her dogma to a T, (by the end of the campaign became Saint of Tymora). So it's not just about praying and being pious. *It's a lifestyle, damnit!!* lol
I find it easier to work with the GM in making the pantheons so each player can have a god they (almost always) enjoy worshipping (even if they don't help the characters)
There is only one god Pelor and it is a vengeful god. At least when you are Cleric of Pelor its pretty handy because almost every human prays to Pelor. You can get lots of shit done with status as an instrument of most believed god.
That outro ^^
I fully agree with you, when you SEE everyday proof of the existence of gods, you wouldn't cross them.
But there is an interesting point about faith to be made. Faith is you believing without proof (imo), so you wouldn't necessarily be faithfull but fearfull ; to pray with an agenda in mind. Just an idea, but i'll try to develop it, I believe it as potential
There is a lot of misconception about faith. Just as we do not have multiple single words to segregate the concept of love as the Greeks did (agape, phileo, eros, storge, pragma, philautia), so faith is used to convey multiple meanings. Faith is not all about unsupported belief. It embodies reliance and expectation of future behavior based on past behavior. It can also be about trusting while not fully understanding, as Guy describes concerning science in the video. Faith can be about holding on to the belief that the mind-bending supernatural proof that you experienced actually did happen, applies to you personally, and wasn't a hallucination, bad dream, or misinterpreted.
How many times do you have to roll an 01 until it gets through to you? What is really happening when a deity does or doesn't do something and offers no explanation?
"Eight Slices and your done!" XD
So I see 2 ways to go about this.
1: "Okay. An atheist doesn't make sense in this setting but an apatheist is more than doable"
2: "Okay. You are someone who rejects the reality around them for their own comfort. You are the fantasy equivalent to an anti-vaxer & are pitied & looked down upon as such"
I would personally allow my player to choose one of these if they didn't want to take a patron or be a heretic or one of those characters that curse the gods outright.
There is a third way, written up by another commenter higher up. The Nagash path (see Warhammer). "You are someone who accepts that the gods exist, but believes that they require mortals more than mortals require them, they purposely try to keep mortals down to force mortals to worship them for support, and you actively try to cast them down so that they can't screw with humanity anymore." Also known as the antitheist path.
@@mortemtyrannus8813 I would just call that a heretical path. Which is totally doable.
There are also Maltheists. People who believe there is a God (or there are gods) but that he is (they are) evil.
Why can't there be atheists in a world with gods?...
There are theists in a world without gods... The majority of the world is theistic, and gods don't exist... Why can't the reverse also be true?
If a ritual is particularly long could be interesting to add that god's prayers offer respite to those faithful. Basically a time stop while praying, but no resting etc. while praying for mechanic abuse.
I love the intro where the god is just like "yeah okay, that's fine"
Perfect timing. Playing a cleric today. I shall use this information well.
The gods do not speak to everyone. You could come from a Barbarian tribe where the only gods you believed in was whatever chose to grant you strength, whether or not that be a weird brew cooked up by a druid or The Aztec Gods of Fitness descending upon the heavens to teach you about the path of the Swole doesn't really matter.
Awaken my masters
@@Darth_Insidious WAMU!
"Gawd, grawnt meh straingth, and if you do nawt listen, thain to hell wit you!"
--Conan
AYAIYAIYAIYA
They COULD speak to everyone. Everyone relevant to them at least. Be a helluva lot more interesting if you could just duck into a prayer and have a chat with them. Being gods, they should have the theoretical power to handle it.
Yep, I think it's ridiculous that we only tend to roleplay clerics and paladins as religious. I imagine most npc's in most d&d fantasy settings practice a faith of some sort to some degree even if they don't get a Channel Divinty power out of it.
my artificers are downright fanatical. I love science fiction settings
My halfling sorceress was very religious unlike the paladin I was more on point with destroying shrines to very evil entities whilst he wanted to turn villains to his cause before killing them.
So far they were bad guys but deliberately murdering them after they kept their word?
That intro sketch was great haha.
I really loved the little bit at the end. Now all the videos will start on a high note and end on a high note. :D
A good video. The trouble is, very few RPGs have any actual religions. That is to say, they probably have a list of gods, and maybe some holy symbols, but that's as far as it goes. No rituals, no vestments, no liturgy, no nothing. So either the GM has to do all that work themselves, or, more likely, they just don't bother. That, I suspect (besides the fact that there a lot more agnostics/atheists around) that Clerics, etc., get so little respect. Show, don't tell, is still the litmus test for good writing.
I might advise for 'The Dark Eye' - that one has books dedicated to the ingame-religions. It... has books on everything - that's the greatest advantage and the bane of the game :D
But it has a really rich living world with lot's of descriptions and a love (some might say obsession) for details. Interacting cultures, history, (you'll find demon names that, slightly distorted were worshipped as gods in earlier times and so on).
Downside is the overly complicated rule-system. But as for D&D - the same goes here: Make it your own game, kick out what you don't need, change what you think needs changed and be on your merry way :D
aonprd.com/DeitiesByGroup.aspx
I swear by the archives of Nethys when it comes to a website that spells out the deities involved, since everything is neat organized and you usually get as much information as exists.
I've really been getting into D&D recently and I want to thank you for this video. It and videos like it have been allowing me to deepen and expand my knowledge and the richness of my play. Thanks a bunch!
Guy, you make great content. Thank you.
I've just finished my first ever tabletop roleplay session, and you're inspiring me to bring a more compelling PC to the table. Ditching my D&D atheism now.
Ok your sense of humor is great and it's rare to meet someone who isn't derogatory towards people who believe in god irl. Looking forward to more content!
Great video, interesting topic to bring up. Ive seen a guy play a paladin of Lethander, and with a wonderful southern accent he constantly passed out tracts to other players, went into battle singing a hymn to Lethander, and encouraged players to give Lethander a go. It was very characterful and a lot of fun.
Ive also built a half orc rogue whose back story includes being nearly killed by a priest of Shargas (half orc death god), so now my rogue is very anti religion, acts uncomfortable when another player mentions their god, and when swearing is usually being disrespectful of Shargas ('by Shargas hairy ballsack' etc)
It think it can be used very well to be very flavourful for your character especially if their culture would be very influential.
Best interaction with an unreasonable nonbeliever in dnd was when they said in essence.
Player: Hell is a story used to frighten children. When you die you die it’s done! There is no hell!
Me, a tiefling: ...boi
So my game takes place after "god's fall", an epic war between the C'thonics and the Gods along with their Angelic followers. This war resulted in the deaths of the C'thonics and the Gods, and a host of the Angels. This resulted in the priesthoods of all the worshipers loosing their magical powers, until the remnant of the surviving Angelic Host took up the cause and lent the priests their power for healing, purification, and exorcism spells. Now, in order to perform Divine magic, a priest has to get in touch with an Angel and convince them to patronize you with their magic. The old priesthood of the gods still exists, but without magic their followers are disappearing and moving over to the new church of angel worshiping Clerics (and Paladins). The Church tries to promote "good", but is running into some theological trouble, as the clergy can't seem to agree on what the definition of Good should be exactly. This is causing a lot of trouble, along with more than a little bit of political back-biting within the church.
As for the Angels, they have their hands full. They were created billions of years ago to regulate the flow of "the light" into the universe. Too little and life can't exist, too much and everything becomes super-charged with energy and starts to spontaneously combust. They also handle prayers, collecting them and sending them on their way to the correct supernatural recipient, sort of like a postal service for higher-level beings. They are also engaged in a several billion year old war with the Demons, over a dispute they'd rather keep kept out of the public eye.
If one doesn't want to worship dead gods or angels, then one can alternatively speak with the fairies and gain nature magic from them. The Fey are generally benevolent, but also beings of chaos, who find it endlessly amusing to turn people into cows that produce chocolate milk for them to drink, and leave you like that for a century or two "because that's funny". They are true immortals, so they cannot die, nor can they kill. Even if their bodies are destroyed, they can just migrate back to the fairy realms and just reform their body anew. You do NOT want to ever piss off a fairy, as when they form a grudge, they can just keep coming back to harass you over and over, and nothing you can do will ever stop them. They can't kill you, but they will never stop harassing you, ruining your magic spells, spoiling potions, and trying to enchant you so they can drag you back with them to the fairy realms, from which you will never return. People who get a fairy as a patron can use nature magic, and they can "produce fertilizer" that is highly prized by farmers.
Other cosmic powers who will lend people their magic are the Demons, who are engaged in an ancient and eternal war with the angels. Anyone who's played a D&D Warlock is familiar with this class. The Shades of Hades will grant people power over the shadows of their realm, allowing people to perform Necromancy, or "actually it's NecroThaumaturgury, but no one ever calls it that". Necromancy (shadow magic) allows entropic control, so you can speed up, or completely stop the aging process, as well as imbue a shade into a corpse so they can control it as an Undead minion. The Shades of Hades are fascinated with the mortal world, but have trouble interacting with it in their native form, so they require a host to interact with the physical world. Typically a corpse is used as that host, but a living body can work as well, though that requires sharing a body, which can cause trouble.
Finally, there are the gods, who are dead. Any player with a lick of sense will realize one thing: That leaves a job opening.
Dude, that's an awesome setting.
I like the concept, too
My Satanist counter is always "Just because I don't believe in your Sky-wizard doesn't mean I believe in your Ground-goblin."
Grant Train The Sky wizard and the Ground Goblin sounds like a young adult fantasy book you can get at your local highschool library.
I really appreciate this episode.
I had a character once that had a thing before battle. He was a sorcerer, and when he decided that the gloves were coming off, he started his "power chants". Some arcane phrases that had no mechanical benefit, but he believed it made his magic more powerful. He didn't pay any attention to the gods, but that part reminded me of him. He did believe in the gods, swore with their names and would even drop a few coins in at shrines, but he didn't devote himself to any gods
I super agree with this perspective - a world with demonstrated Godly occurrences it's a great opportunity to have characters with faith. I've mainly played within Pathfinder's pantheon and one of the interesting elements of characterisation is how the character interprets their God and incorporates that God's ideals, goals, or philosophies into their lives.
If you grow up with parents worshipping the deity of farming and thus you do too, then you become an adventurer, it's going to impact what you value, how you behave, and probably how you relate to the story and story world. We've never had a mechanic associated with it either; churches just impacts the world we're playing in so much that it becomes part of the rich fabric of the story.
Raising her hands, fingers and thumbs lightly press together to form a circle around her silver pendant in the shape of a sword , "May the Dark Maiden's Song touch your Heart and bring you Joy."
Played a cleric once who did not like his god who he felt was to meddlesome. The interplay was some great role-playing.
THAT was hilarious! I mean, 'Hit the like, ...'
All good points. Just beware that for those not on any spirituality path, religious themes can easily turn into parody. There is a way to avoid that.
In my nation's (Latvian) fairytales, God often reciprocates disguised as an old man, giving the heroes perhaps an odd thing - which later saves the day. What are the requirements for that?
Not the rituals, no. A true religion has moral codes and ethical principles the heroes are expected to follow. Combined with dedicating their deeds to the object of their worship. Which can be represented either as a gesture before fight, like you mentioned - or as shouting out a phrase or name.
In the spiritual tradition I personally follow, though, there is a saying: 'It is not so difficult to see God; much harder to make Him notice you'. Bringing God's attention to the themselves, the heroes can really get a heap of fate points. :)
"Yeah, I don't believe in water"
Nice Samwell Tarly impression at the start.
"The God-Emperor is absent?"
*purging intensifies*
It's also worth considering that some settings have pantheons of gods that don't demand to be worshiped exclusively. In the Forgotten Realms, you have to have a "patron deity" (and your devotion to this deity determines what happens to your soul when you die), but if you pray to a different god, your patron deity (probably) won't get mad. Even if someone is a devout follower of Lathander, they might pray to Tyr before a trial, or make an offering to Umberlee before a sea voyage.
So interesting; Tabletop games actually (in part) brought me to Anglicanism! Now I'm training for the priesthood!
I think of it more like Hans not believing in the force but it clearly being there in that setting
True but what proof was there of the Force in the day to day life? And what proof was there that it was anything more than an energy field?
The Jedi were long gone by Solo's time after all.
Damn it, Hans!
@@lynxfirenze4994 "long gone..." less than 20 years ago. Chewbacca fought alongside Yoda, for f*ck sake.
And their order had been vilified and generally erased by the Galactic Empire. All Solo is likely to have had are old battle stories (which he could easily dismiss as exaggerated) about Yoda.
But then again that's also kind of just an incongruity between the originals and the prequels :P
But two decades of absolute power is a long time for the Empire to malign the order. Wouldn't even be that difficult, the Jedi were genuinely messed up and flawed as an organisation.
One thing to consider: in a polytheistic culture, most people would not be bound to a specific god, at least not in a profound way. In some polytheistic cultures, worship of a chief god was common - Zeus/Jupiter in the Greco-Roman theme, for example - while others had differing hierarchies depending on where you were - the Norse, for example, generally held Odin, Thor, or Freyr as their chief god, but which of those three varied widely. People working a specific profession tended to privately worship the god of that profession even if they were not highest in the overall hierarchy of gods - the warrior elite of Sparta, for example, worshiped Ares alongside Zeus. And more sophisticated individuals often mixed up their name drops - a king of the Danes might worship Odin directly (ie: visiting the temple and doing whatever a worshiper of Odin does, but pray to Thor for assistance in battle during a speech, or Freyr to bring rains to his drought stricken lands in time to save the harvest while holding court and being asked for help by some poor farmer.
I'd also suggest that it's a reasonable extension that in a less organized pantheon such as many of those found in role-playing universes - those in which there is no chief god, or are several chief gods - one for the elves, one for the dwarves, the gnomes, the halflings, etc - that people might use much more varied forms of praise in general. (Real world polytheistic pantheons tend to have a built in hierarchy because the gods are either a mythical species that traces back to a unified origin (Norse mythology), exist in a society that uses that structure to justify its mortal leaders' right to rule (Egyptian mythology), or some combination of the two (Greco-Roman mythology) - I deliberately leave out modern polytheistic religions because I know of only two and what little I know about them is so minute that it's nigh inconceivable that I would not say something offensively wrong about them, and unlike the ones I did use, there's actually people who follow those religions to be offended by my ignorance.) Most fiction I've read that has such chaotic pantheons tends have characters swearing by multiple gods or none, unless they actively follow a specific deity.
Which leads me to the one big exception to this: priests. D&D's clerics follow a specific god to the point of being granted the ability to enact several minor miracles per day - most systems have some equivalently super-devout class or archetype, as far as I know - at least among those where deities form a core aspect of the setting. (Though in fairness, the religion could be along the lines of the Song of Ice and Fire one, where a priest of the 7 gods acts as a representative of all of them, rather than a single deity in absence of the others.)
I was told that none of the war gods appreciate offerings of skulls. I was apparently a bit too pious for the DM's liking.
As a french, you had my attention at "By Toutatis" =D
As a non French. Why?
As a non-French educated by years and years of reading and memorising Asterix-comics - I understand you very well :D
@@theboredlich215 "Toutatis" is a Gallic god often quoted in the "Asterix" comics, a well-known comics series in France about a small Gallic village being the last to resist against the Roman invader.
0:00 Guy channeling his inner Hugh Jackman...😂
You are absolutely a marvelous human being
Here's something I've never seen done to completion when it comes to playing characters with "religious" backgrounds:
Have the characters follow completely different sets of gods.
I don't mean just "Have the Elves follow the Elven gods, have the Dwarves follow the Dwarven gods, etc.", I mean completely unconnected sets of gods. Maybe the Elves follow the standard set of Elven gods from the player's guide, but the Humans follow the Egyptian gods, the Orcs follow the Norse gods, the Dwarves have a monotheistic religion, etc.
Make stuff weird for the game by making it more normal by our standards. In my opinion, the conflicts between the various races are more tangible when they're all followers of fundamentally incompatible religions that are all completely valid and accurate in the setting. The Orcs fight because fighting is a way to let the gods show which side they favor. The Dwarves fight because their god commands them to spread its word to the heathens and convert them to the one true path. The Humans fight because their Emperor is the physical embodiment of their chief god, and he's demanding more territory. The Elves fight because they have to fight back against all the crazy people that believe the fairy tales told to them by their ancestors, but won't accept that the immortal people that have flawless recall of their past lives were literally born from the blood of a god.
And they're all right.
It sounds sort of crazy, and I'm sure it'd be difficult to accomplish with a diverse party, but our world somehow manages to have multiple religions simultaneously without everyone always being at everyone's throats or having humanity completely wipe itself off the face of the planet, so a fantasy world with magic and objective proof of the existence of gods should have no problem with it.
This actually makes more sense of the PHB section listing all the gods. The impression from there is that each setting has discrete gods, with those from another setting being in a completely different universe. I've not played the game, only watched UA-cam and did some online research. Your idea has a lot of merit.
My characters believe in the Greyhawk Gods. The rest are considered false by their upbringing.
I agree higher power adds alot to a game, alot more then just flavor, great video subject as usual guy, also Waukeen 4lyfe xD
When you said, "if there is something that exists out there that does have a provable influence over your life but you don't believe in it", I was instantly reminded of American politics. Sorry for bringing politics into it. Great videos! Love the content. :)
Dont agree all the way, but you make a lot of good points. I think a non-religious character is perfectly valid, even in a world like most D&D settings where the existence of gods is nothing less than fact. Firstly, not worshipping a god doesnt mean not believing in the gods. You wouldn't say that a Tempus worshipper doesnt believe in the existence of Umberlee, right? The non-religious character, just like in the real world, only goes one god further than most people.
So I agree that giving your character a religion and some rituals based around that can add depth, but that certainly isnt the only way to bring them to life. And on the opposite end being nonreligious can also make for an interesting character, by giving your character a reason to not believe in gods. Maybe your character always rolls their eyes whenever someone wishes them "Blessings of Brighty the Sunboy upon you" maybe they occasionally remark on how someone is wasting their time praying to that pompous, self-important jerk of a glorified celestial. They acknowledge that the gods are real, but where were they when i spent most of my life as a slave being whipped and abused by some noble from that country of devil-worshippers.
Don't dismiss the non-religious character so easily.
Another brilliant video as always.
Immeral is currently rattling his alms box!
Love it!
once had a player who wanted to play an atheist, in the same party as a priest character (favored soul), during the play priest player led them to a sacred spring for cleansing tainted corruption. The clerics told them they needed to pray for healing. The Atheist decided to "fake it" and the patron of healing took notice.... it did not end well.
Why did the God take notice? Is that God so vain that someone that doesn't worship him/her is such an outrage that they just have to go down there and make a point about it? That must be a God that must be on the war path all the time since there is so many believers of other Gods. Why should a God care about someone that is socially pressured into making a prayer to a God they do not serve or worship? If I was that God I should just.... "Oh. There is a unbeliever there being forced into a prayer to me by one of my worshipers.... Why should I care? If I do something about it I just make his life worse, I can do without him if he doesn't want to follow me."
Cloud Seeker, well, that is an interesting set of assumptions, not terribly unreasonable ones considering most pantheons. These gods had jobs overseeing both natural tasks and exceptions to their spheres of responsibility on behalf of their boss deity. They weren’t worshipped they worked for the boss deity. Cosmic middle management. By going to the sacred pool and engaging in pseudo prayer was like a crank call to tech support only you are holding them on the line by doing so in the sacred pool.
@@evilallensmithee Lets put this into perspective using your example. It isn't a prank call since they are forced into it. If you force me to prank call someone and they come and it turns out you forced me, who do you think is in trouble for that prank call? It isn't going to be me who have been forced to do it against my will. In your case your worshiper should have been punished for prank calling their God. Why should I be punished for wasting the Gods time when you forced people into wasting your Gods time? You are the culprit here and not me.
A great video, just one thing I noticed in my RPG groups and noticed in Your video as well...
Why should a person outside of a religious profession choose one god? I think that is simply because we live in a monotheistic society. But in a polytheistic society most people dont choose one god, they believe in all of them and worship all of them. One minute they thank the god of luck that the carriage missed them, the other moment they pray to the god of fertility for a good harvest. You either believe in all of the gods and worship (or at least fear) all of them, or none of them. You can have one favorite god and when You are a priest You choose the one god You are a servant of, but You still believe in and worship the other gods.
My character was an academic of whom didnt believe in a deity until at level 12, a paladin called upon Meliki, and an ethereal unicorn appeared and led the party to someone in distress. I made it a point to build 'finding out gods are real' into the characters actions after that point. At level 20, the character was chosen as an avatar of the god Selune to settle a dispute between deities because thats the direction the campaign went.
Not having a god in d&d generally means "I don't identify with one, so I worship all equally as I need them."
11:30 it's funny that you bring him up to I just made a nature cleric that worships Dionysus. He's a mostly naked loxodon hermit.
No armor just a shield and his armored class is 18 by the way......
Funnily enough, one of my characters (not a very actively religious one at that) used the "Our Lord and Savior Bahamut" line to have a conversation opener to knock on a door he wanted to peek behind.
It’s funny when there is a massive prayer speech and the gods are just like “k”
I really like to integrate Gods in my games (as GM or Player).
My two favourite characters are in shadowrun a nordic banshee that acts as the highpriest of hel and has her little rituals like telling anyone she gonna kill "I'll present you to the mighty and only true ruler of your soul, may she be forgiving where I ain't" (that's my coplayers clue for shit is hitting the fan now really fast)
and my DnD druid whorshipping mother Gaia and the element, her most known ritual is doing pyre burials and chanting "from life, to death, from fire to wind, through water to earth, regrow as life, everlasting in the circle!" (on occasions only the mid part "from fire to wind through water to earth)
And as a GM I really like it when player invest into deitys (real or absent) that realy brings so much more flavour than a punch of "naahh don't need da gods"-players.
Also, I love that you say your religion is science. It's far more honest than many who say they have no religion, but really science is their religion.
Here's an idea for believing in a god in ttrpg. Your character has done something to anger a god so as a consequence, the god curses you. Possible outcomes of this could be that you have to adjust your play style to accommodate the curse, you have to pray and make offerings to the god (food, ale or even blood of your enemies every day) or it could even force a chaotic evil into playing somewhat nice with a group giving reason for that character to actually be in the group instead of trying to kill them and making off with their stuff.
the only part of the game my dm allowed for me to interact with my characters god was a blessing on her bow.... i have to throw a percentile die and if I get a 00 the shot and damage is blessed. but nothing else so far... not even for the paladin... i think its sad
It is sad. Religion really is one of those subjects you are completely dependent on the gm actually portraying religion as an active part of the world. Especially if it is organized religion.
Before I watch the rest of the video: it seems you are invoking the god of Asterix. :p Par Toutatis!
Asterix! I love Asterix!
Yay!
Hey, just wanted to note you gave me a cool idea to have a character who is questing to write the bible of their god. In a game that could be a super interesting character angle on the side of a main plot
Well in a setting where the gods are real you can have a character who just thinks that they aren't all powerful. That's why he doesn't believe in them.
A couple of points that came up for me, reflecting on the games I've played over the years:
1) There's a difference between a character believing a god or gods exist, and actively worshiping them. The worship is a kind of contract, but your gods can happily go on influencing your world even if the characters never actually interact with them... Also from a practical standpoint, having played with new atheists for whom D&D was once a terrifying taboo, and a girlfriend who grew up in an abusively strict Calvinist family, I'd be suuuuuper wary of throwing even a fictional Pascal's Wager at my players without having a quiet, private conversation first.
2) Anti-theism in a world where gods are unequivocally real opens up a whole universe of interesting narratives. The Divinity games explored this, as did the first Dragon Age... And it's an important consideration when you're world-building, this question of whether the Gods create overall more misery than good as they play out their petty squabbles (or noble causes) on the mortal plane. I mean, if your world has multiple pantheons, and they're *all* real, how does that play out? Do they fight? Do they share? Are minds or souls a resource they're competing for?
3) The gods in many fantasy worlds seem to be racial, or have racial biases... For example the gods of the Dwarven mountain-homes being different from the gods of man, or the fey deities of harvest and hearth that Halflings might pay tribute to... Or to take it a step further the Elder or Ancient races like the Elves may not, in fact, have any gods; being borne directly from the same source of godhood that the mortal races require intercedents or interlocutors for.
For once I feel like this whole approach of "You've gotta have one" puts the proverbial cart before the horse. It shouldn't be on the players to just pick a god from a list, unless they're specifically interested in doing that... If a GM wants to explore narratives around religion, godliness or ritual then they should just DO that... Have the gods start manipulating events or setting stories in motion. Give a character visions, or guidance accompanied by religious symbolism. Have the characters stumble into a ritual and unwittingly complete it, or disrupt it... That sort of thing. And you can slowly ramp up the obviousness until the players are like "Hey!... Waaaaait a minute!?"
I am personally an aetheist but I do have 3 strongly religious characters. The most Prominent one would be my Shadowrun character Father Paladin. Paladin isn't actual name, just a shadowrunner handle, but he does run a legitimate church and has a low income lifestyle. He carefully plans out his budget and how much will be enough to cover his modest church, equipment, and barebones lifestyle essentials. Everything else he puts towards charity and helping reinvest into the community because he believes that Christ would want it that way. Granted he slides a bit on the "thou shalt not kill" business but whatever. He is a shepherd of his flock and one of the duties of a shepherd is to fight off the wolves.
I really identify with being called a Satanist, and countering with "to believe in Satan, you have to believe in a religion, by default". It never worked for me. this episode hits home for me, even though I may have missed the point.
I chose my character's gods based on his backstory, and also because it's just juicy to have a dhampir who prays to Kelemvor (who famously HATES undead), Lathander (who also hates undead and probably hates vampires a little bit more), and Selûne (started out okay, not so much after he got himself cursed with lycanthropy).
His prayers to Lathander are mostly thanks because, in the first dawn after being killed by a vampire and returned to unlife as a dhampir, he expected to be destroyed by the rising sunlight. When the light didn't destroy him, he took it as a sign of Lathander's mercy, and genuinely thanks him every sunrise for yet another day.
His prayers to Selûne are for guidance, mostly, because he first rose after death under the light of a full moon (shout out to old vampire literature). Now he asks for help to control his lycanthropy, because if she guides and protects kind-hearted lycanthropes, he needs the help.
And when he prays to Kelemvor, it's to ask him to guide the spirits of the dead to the next world, and also for forgiveness due to his unfortunate undead state.
Hmmm. Lots of thoughts on this one:
Including the dimension of belief in our character's story will certainly result in a deeper tale. Even the lack of belief is a belief, opening questions of why that belief, how and when did it come about, who was involved, what is believed, etc.
Guy's personal Science example was excellent, and goes along with my point of objection: believers (even in a fantasy setting with objective benefits) don't believe BECAUSE of those benefits, but have access to those benefits BECAUSE of belief. Guy's belief in science helps him make sense of the world, relate to the world, and to others in the world. Faith of any type does this for believers. Faith in science, democracy, constitutional monarchy, community, the good in people, the evil in people, logic, law, profit, and religions do that for those with those beliefs. Our characters will be the same, viewing their world through various lenses. Paying attention to those lenses will help us tell better stories.
Believers do not pick a deity based on the deities UTILITY (Players do, which is a whole metagame issue). The faith and worship of a deity should emerge out of the culture the character is in, the experiences the character has (mundane or sacred), merging with the character, their outlook, backstory, profession, etc. I would argue that IF a Deity found believers only paying lip service to the tenants of the faith, only focused on the powers of the faith & the utility of the faith, progressive intervention would be undertaken until the worshiper gained insight, or was dead. **** SPOILERS**** for Save or Dice, and an episode of The Adventures of the Windswift: What was Barnabas' offense? Accusing his God of having no use: "Brax, you are USELESS!" after having just prayed to him for help. The statement was not the main problem; the attitude behind the statement betrayed a fundamental misunderstanding of religion, faith, and the role of the faithful. This was totally the opposite of Blaxton's prayer, in which he asked for the strength and skill to enact Brax's Judgement upon a certain Duke. Had Blaxton failed, he would have assumed it was his lack, not this god's.
Including a faith dimension as part of a character arch is probably the most interesting way of developing this facet of the story. The other players and their beliefs can influence your character. Events in the campaign can influence your character's development. My long term character (a mage) was from earth, was religious, but felt the "gods" on the world he found himself were just another form of "magic". Part of his story arch was understanding where this "magic" came from. It was after about 2 years of playing that he witnessed an in-game miracle, and admitted that perhaps there was some truth to these gods, apart from cultural norms. Over time, religion became more important to the character, and his story. At the same time, on the same journey, our Druidic players found their faith tested and challenged as they learned the underpinnings of the "natural world" was not as natural as they had believed. One player got rather depressed, feeling betrayed by her faith. Treading gently with all of this is critical.
Depending on the DM, players may be concerned about religion being used more as a negative (you have sinned), rather than a positive story element. The players experience with faith in real life will also color their perception. It was very interesting in the recent Windswift episode Hope Lost two of the player characters, and two of the NPCs struggling with their perceptions of the gods' role in their world.
I've always included Odin (as a deity of both Wisdom and War, though sometimes more of one than the other, depending on the world and campaign flavor) in my pantheons ever since I started DMing in '96. My longtime group (well, a couple of individuals within said group) made one joke that has stood the test of time while talking to a Paladin of Odin way back in the late 90's as a "method of greeting:"
They covered one eye with a hand while maintaining eye contact with the faithful they're speaking to.
At the time, I hated the joke because it felt like they absolutely just made fun of that Paladin's deity and should have been smitten [smote!?] on the spot, especially since they weren't exactly being respectful or even god-fearing. I admit that it didn't help that Odin has been one of my favorite deities from any real-life pantheon since childhood, especially thanks to his appearance in my favorite Final Fantasy games (namely 4 and 6, though 7 is an honorable mention).
Now, while the more fanatical followers might actually challenge someone who makes that gesture, I generally roleplay that many of the faithful (even some Paladins) take it in stride with good humor, having seen it many times in the past. :)
Another Odin-related joke is that when the faithful of Odin touch someone for the purpose of healing, they actually hit them hard while screaming "THE POWER OF ODIN COMPELS YOU TO MEND YOUR WOUNDS!" or something similar. Yeah, a rare few of my NPC Paladins do that now, and not all of them follow Odin. :)
I have this goliath barbarian who believes in and worships the goddess Auril. She doesn't really revere the goddess, it's more that she's kinda terrified of her, given that as a goliath my character would have witnessed the dangers of very harsh winters first-hand. Even though she no longer lives in the mountains that trauma has followed her, and so she's always leaving sacrifices out for Auril and trying not to speak ill of her/do anything that might offend her, especially in winter months.
Idk, I love the idea of characters who don't belong to 'religious classes' (like clerics and paladins) still having religious beliefs. Kind of connects them a little more to the worth regardless of whether the gods in question exist or not.
A character not believing in the gods in D&D is like flat earthers here.
I appreciate your recognizing that "believing in science" is still, structurally speaking, a religion. Thank you for refraining from the standard naturalist's contempt.
I remember my last character was a Life Cleric who worshipped Pelor, and was abandoned by Pelor due to doing necromancy in an attempt to bring back their dead wife. His story was supposed to be a redemption story where he worked over the course of the campaign to gain Pelor's favor again by healing with his own hands and resurrecting a person without zombifying them.
Another character in our campaign, a Paladin, also worshipped Pelor. He was a Domination Paladin who crushed hope out if people and wanted to militarize the church and use Pelor's name to rule and dominate the lands. Needless to say this flyes atleast *partially* against what Pelor represents.
The thing that set me off one day and stopped me playing that character was when we were both in town preparing. I prayed to Pelor and as expected received no message due to my actions. Wheb the paladin prayed instead, he immediately found that his weapons and armor were blessed by Pelor, assumeably approving of his actions. Next session I dumped my cleric and told the DM if Pelor was ok with slaughter and warmongering then he would probably be ok with necromancy and my past experimentation, which completely ruined my characters concept.
As always, I really enjoyed the video and the insights that you've provided, Guy. I'm very sorry that your sunday school more or less disowned you for asking questions and thinking about religion in an analytical and critical way. As a christian, I am constantly see how God uses science and logic to dictate the world. I see Him in math and I see Him in nature. I believe that if you can't explain and have arguments as to why you believe in something, then you don't have a very valid belief (that was a lot of uses of the word "belief").
I like the approach of Kobold Press. Their setting explains that the gods are all worshipped pseudonyms and this is common knowledge. Those pseudonyms can be stolen and traded and fabricated.
This means that all worship is dependent on the faith that your chosen gods are more or less who they say they are. Or even on the belief that you can outsmart the gods at their own game by playing them against each other under their chosen pseudonyms.
I like that system a lot, because it makes gods both more mysterious as well as more approachable. The masks offer a layer of separation from absolutes so that drama has a better chance.
Stumpt’s campaign Hero Squad has an atheistic paladin. His parents pushed him into the career. He thinks divine power comes from the stars and the universe rather than from some living entity. The player does a great job of using this background when appropriate without forcing his character’s views on other characters.
Praise the All Father! A new video!
I think if anything, this episode has proven that Guy is the Stephen Fry of roleplaying.
I really like Stephen Fry!
my goliath barbarian canibal would (i have decided just now) take a bite out of the heart of one slain opponent, to gain some of his or her power, and then offer the rest to his god, through some other way. maybe burning, so it becomes smoke, and can drift up into the heavens, idk. just thought of it. :)
6:40 Aaaargh, inner nerd raging, not Juno in Greece
I watched this like a year ago and was kind of put off with the quality of the audio. It's improved quite a bit since i've last checked.
thanks that was very interesting!
“Why your character should be god fearing”
My answer: direct intervention by the gods in this world, in favor or against the players. Based on wether they follow them or not. Kinda like in Greek myths, like with the battle of Troy, or the transformation of Medusa, and stuff. I mean, they were even betting on who would win a few times or directly took sides.
Elven Forge Cleric of Hanali Celanil, I've already come up with prayers and sayings and I plan for him to pray every full moon on her coming day.
Did anyone else laugh a lot during the video? It was great as always, but I think Guy can be very funny XD. "They (the gods) need to have good PR" hahahahaha
I have a warforged heavily based on Hatsune miku and gir, a literal god showed up to the party and she probably is rethinking her life
Had a game once where the whole party was religious. Had a war cleric, a divine hunter, a wizard, and a psychic detective who was married to a cleric. It became a party thing to always stop in local temples to find shrines. The war cleric and the divine hunter were active parts of the temple structure and would spend an "hour in prayer" at dawn every day. The psychic detective was more lax in his practices when away from his wife and more active when with her. Further he was a bit less resolute in his morality. The wizard was more devout, but less ritualistic. Later the party was joined by a paladin and a bard. The bard was a first time player who also chose a deity. The paladin I wrote in as sent by the wife of the psychic detective to protect him. The campaign was a lot of fun. Over time the party became more and more integrated with their local temple. And eventually there were visions and visits that would occur at different times. The psychic detective got to have a crisis of faith when his god asked him about his devotion. The wizard was offered a choice in power when he became strong enough to be interesting to his deity. Having quiet moments of awe and wonder for the PCs was a great time.
My PF Rogue wears a necklace of eleven different holy symbols.
if i'm not making a very religious man i usually just go with a deity from the list that best fits him.
my rouge who causes plenty of trouble for the party will start following loki and have the CG alignment (i pick these kinds of things after PC creation, makes it so "i'm following my alignment" but "this is what my PC does as shown before"
there's a character in my science fiction setting whom is an android who is absolutely fanatical in devotion to the god of creation. a god which is literally worshiped via prayer and tinkering at the same time. she is almost always either fighting someone or tinkering.
she's an artificer
In the 41+ years I've gamed, all we've done is picked a god, wrote it on the character sheet, and forgot about it. I've played characters who were clerics who have gone farther, to the consternation of other players and GM. But that is the exception rather than the rule.
My next character is going to be a dragonborn paladin of bahamut, whose ultimate goal is become a dragon. Yknow, the BIG kind. He believes that if he is faithful to Bahamut and earns his favor, he can become, like, bahamut's personal guard or something. Haven't fleshed it out with my DM yet, but I will soon.
Im just now looking into playing D&D and i have watched some videos on how you can technically become a demi god without breaking any D&D rules ( thos of course comes down to the DM and what they allow )
I had a character in a Legend of Zelda homebrew who, as a goron, followed Din, the Goddess of Power (and fire and shadow and earth and probably some other things). He wasn't very bright though, and didn't really get how the whole "worshiping" thing is supposed to go. He saw Din more as a really powerful guy (he also didn't get the whole "gender" thing) who deserved respect because of how awesome he was. This character would pay his respects at a temple of Din by going in, loudly and cheerfully greeting the most prominent depiction of his goddess, and leaving.
He also had this cultural quirk where he would show deference to the queen by clapping a fist to his chest. Unfortunately, he was rather enthusiastic about everything he did, so I usually ended up punching myself in the chest. It started to get a bit tender as the campaign wore on.
How might you work up a personal ritual for a character? I have a character that would worship The Moonweaver but have no idea how to go about to make that worship more bound to my character