Enforcing The Law In Your TTRPG - Great GM
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- Опубліковано 25 сер 2024
- We take a look at Law and order in your world, focusing on the lore of the law, the lawmen and the technical aspects. This is how I add the law in my game so it's still present, a threat, still something the pc's need to worry about but also by not painting myself in a corner in the case they are arrested.
Whether it is the law in a medieval castle, or a spaceport, we look at how you can bring it together so your pc's don't get arrested for all sorts of things.
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Building a Complete Campaign from Scratch? Find out more about Guy's 'Complete Guide to Creating Epic Campaigns' book here: ua-cam.com/video/9CH4VQ_9GTI/v-deo.html
Such a good book. Already running my first campaign guided by the book. Was a bit worried but the book really lays it out straight
My law enforcement, if I am running a Medium or higher Magical Setting, will usually know a bit about magic.
Generally, even the most uneducated peasant-turned-guard will be taught 2 basic rules.
1. When arresting any magic user or suspected magic user: cuff, fold and gag the bugger.
2. If an item is magical or suspected to be magical, never touch it directly; put it somewhere safe, and wait for the village wizard or priest to inspect it or something.
These are things taught, often in children rhymes; alongside other things such as "don't fight a bear with your bare fists". Or "Beware beware the sorcerer: With his eyes he will steal your mind, with his mouth he will steal your soul, and with his hands he will burn your home." Even peasants will know this, + a health dose of superstition as well.
More professional guards will likely know of more spells, such as how some spellcasters can shapeshift or turn themselves invisible, and a bit about both magical & mundane countermeasures, such as using soft ground to detect invisible creatures.
Just as how a successful merchant will most likely be familiar with spells commonly used to trick & manipulate them, such as suggestion or transmute items. He might not be an arcane academic, but his profession will most likely mean he'll know the base rules and most common countermeasures.
Given the power of magic and the amazing things even low level spellcasters can do, it is reasonable to expect that any setting with even a meager level of magic will likely have a population with at least a base understanding of magic as well.
Just think how attentive you'd be as a guard if someone walked into your town with a fully automatic assault rifle, loadead and ready under their coat. Now imagine if someone walked into your medieval town, and you knew mages could conjure 30ft radius fireballs in less than 6 seconds!
same in my setting the local or kingdom guard all have a basic understanding of magic and 2 or more magic guards called the Seekers they secure criminal mages and local guard will use Enchanted Cuffs that are painful to wear
when they get to a cells or prison the walls are made from an Element that nullifies magic and may cause the mage to be violently sick if there not used to the Element
and of course some Forts are magic proof but not all the kingdom has a dark past with them
This is true. I hadn't considered much about the average person's knowledge of magic or how it would affect the culture and education. Those rhymes are cool!
Is fireball radius of 30 in other editions besides 5e? In 5e it's 20.
STOP! YOU VIOLATED THE LAW! PAY THE COURT A FINE OR SERVE YOUR SENTENCE, YOUR STOLEN GOODS ARE NOW FORFEIT.
I refuse!
*resist arrest*
Surely you can look away =) (persuade) (speech 100)
@@nemooceansoul1137 (psssst, that only works in skyrim)
In Daggerfall it's just HALT! HALT HALT HALT HALT HALT HALT HALT HALT HALT HALT HALT!!! X 100
One of my PCs decided to shoulder-check and then threaten a guard on the way into a militarised city and got him self thrown into jail. He also has some contraband on him which if found with it will be punishable by death.
The other PCs went for a nice lunch.
No contest, your videos are the most inspiring to me. I'm designing a new setting for an Age of Rebellion campaign, and this video couldn't have come at a better time! Thanks for always providing awesome insights and ideas!
The other thing to consider especially with medieval settings is that the public prosecutors that people today take for granted are a modern invention. In many medieval legal systems all prosecutions were brought privately by the accuser petitioning the relevant authority to hear their grievance and functioned quite a bit more like a civil case than we are used to today. In such systems it wasn't uncommon for many cases to be resolved or even not brought at all because the accused was able to offer an acceptable sum as compensation this could even be the case for things like murder especially if the decedent leaves behind dependents of little means where compensation that offers them the means to survive could be worth far more than the catharsis any punishment the court could meat out could provide. Course if the PC's are going to go about murdering nobles or others of means this is less likely to work they can afford to forego any compensation you could offer for the chance to see you hang.
Well, as a lawyer with a special interest in history of law I *must* say: the beginning of the video is gross oversimplification. I'm not saying it's wrong in its entirety, but to me it's "common misconception"-level statement. Yes, word of a nobleman was held in higher regard than that of the commoner, but many a time said commoner still had the same options presented: hearing by the court (not always an independent court, but still), presenting evidence (most likely witnesses) and if no evidence nor witness was found, the commoner still had right to trial by combat with the nobleman (but only then, no Game of Thrones bullshit here, where you can call for a trial by combat even if you're clearly guilty).
Medieval law was different from ours, but people form that time well knew what is just and weren't stupid.
Thank you for sharing and adding. I love seeing how our own personal interests and hobbies can help improve the game. So - trail be combat! I like it. :)
Adding to that, my understanding is that until fairly recently, in most societies guards would be primarily in charge of keeping the peace, not of investigating matters between individuals. A magistrate or ruler might hear these cases and pass judgment, but the burden of finding evidence would be on the accusing party rather than an independent investigation.
Based on your findings, do you think this is accurate?
Doesn't that depend tremendously on the specific society you're talking about (as well as the time)? While the idea of "let's hear what the accused has to say" is probably universal in most cultures and time periods, any mention of universal "rights" already sounds fairly culture specific to me.
And something like a right to trial by combat was probably only a thing in a particular region during a particular time period.
@@Louigi36 Kinda, but not really. Laws in medieval Europe were pretty similar from the north of Iberian Peninsula to Poland. It was a weird combination of tribal laws which were brought there by migrant tribes and what was left and preserved by the Church from Roman Law. After all, most lawyers from that time were studying the same thing in the same places (Bologna, Paris, Salerno).
Of course there were differences, but not huge. It worked like that: French law was "inspiration" for the German law, German law "inspired" Polish Law... It's like kids cheating in the exam, you can compare their exams and clearly see which was the orginal one.
One of the unintended consequences of evolutionary theory is it leaking into areas of study totally unrelated to biology. "We're more technologically advanced than those stumbling barbarians in the Dark Ages--where are *their* smartphones?" Yeah, and where are our Pyramids and Cathedrals Notre Dame built by hand across generations? I wholeheartedly agree, our historical forebears were most assuredly not stupid!
My group just got themselves arrested last weekend- this couldn't have come at a better time. Thank you Guy!
I got one of my players arrested recently. I had prepared three different ways for him to solve the problem, but (as players often tend to do) he found a fourth AKA breaking out of the cell, sommoning a giant mouse and riding into the sunset
one thing to try is to have each region or city in your campaign have an unexpected law of some sort: either something that isn't normally illegal that is here, or something that's normally illegal in other places that isn't there. For example, one country in the game I'm running is the only nation in the continent where creating undead isn't illegal, which has led to some hilarious misunderstandings.
Geezer here...
Good vid.
Often overlooked in my experience. One of the greatest surprises waiting for new players regards the "town guard" and the rest of law enforcement. They are capable to scary capable compared to most other tables. Makes a great opportunity to set them off on about any quest/adventure. Wipe out the evil cult or what ever, or rot out your time in prison.
This is not strictly about law or the reach of law in RPGs but useful nonetheless.
When you mentioned Galaxy wide Empires and Law (around 5:20) I remembered the following:
In Stephen R. Donaldsons Gap-Cycle (sci fi adventure about space pirates, aliens and so on - really good read by the way).
One ships captain I believe pondered about hunting down pirates in the vastness of space. It was about
"People don't believe how it is so hard to hunt the pirates, when we have the fastest ships in the known universe, FTL-technology and all...
Yes. Our technology allows for travelling between the stars in mere hours. But once you are there, once you found the asteroide belt where the pirates are hiding it takes months to actually search the belt, to literally look under every stone..."
And that's a very good reminder of what law enforcment can do and can't do - Even if they have FTL-Drives, Stargates or magic portals at their disposal - they have a hard time to actually find you, WHEN they are near your hideout...
Excellent example yes. On the other hand, breaking into a sci-fi building with sensors and AI monitoring the building, and then escaping becomes more challenging... so the trick is to get into space, and fast... can't we just teleport the building into space? Oceans 23100000... The Last Heist. - Seriously though yes, space is huge.
@@HowtobeaGreatGM : "Teleporting the building into space" That's a good one :D
But in the (heartbleading amateur) sci-fi world my friends and me created, we did something like this.
The space pirates (sponsored by one of the noble houses) put some remote controlled extra-jump drives on a luxus-liner they were about to enter and just jumped a few lightyears away in an unknown direction.
Any distress-signal would take years to arrive somewhere - and finding a few hundred meter long object anywhere in deep space is nearly impossible.
It's like the needle in an infinite haystack...
A book of law can also be useful as a handout for when they're going on trial. Them trying hard to find loopholes and uses of charisma and such to try and convince a judge or jury to allow the loophole to be used allow for interesting roleplay.
This is especially relevant for the DarkHeresy setting, thanks a lot!
In a book i've read there was this city where people gather to commerce, more than other criminals because violence was... well, not impossible, but to draw a weapon means to be focused by those golems that patrols the place. Characters said that nobody knows from where those come from, but they act like that so they where used by people gathering there as a warranty agaist fights and murdering.
Great video!! I feel like, not only do you teach me about tabletop gm-ing, but I learn lil tidbit of world knowledge every video :D
I guess the first thing is to apply the rule that you don't solve out-of-game problems in-game. If the PCs are knowingly embarking upon a criminal career, so be it. You can simply play out the consequences of the PCs actions according to the internal rules of the setting as you lay out in this video.
But if the PCs are headed towards a disastrous collision with the forces of law and order as a result of the players not expecting the setting to provide actual consequences (it's not unusual for new players to "poke" at the setting or have the freedom of the medium go to their heads), then they do deserve a frank warning that they have drastically misread what kind of game you are running.
Pause play. Point out that - however hilarious the current situation might be to the players - their characters are aware that what they are about to do is illegal. Point out that they are also aware that should they make themselves a problem to the powers that be, the law will apply greater and greater force until the problem is solved. You know, like the law operates in the real world.
My PCs are in the process of 'infiltrating' a government building. The way they tried was sneaking in at noon. The rogue was spotted and now the whole party is entering the building to save the rogue.
I have some ideas to give the players options on how to leviate the problems that will pop up. But from this video I got an idea to work with them murdering the whole group of gnomes in charge of this building.
Thanks loads for this inspiration.
Crazy timing :D One of my players for my future campaign decided they'd like a family in law enforcement, I hadn't thought of the legal system yet. Thanks a lot!
Been catching up on your videos for months, this is by gar your magnum opus, sir. And fascinating tidbit about the Magic Crimes Unit in your SA.
In my last game the players where eager to leave a city in the middle of the night. I seeded that the guards would happily would look away, if there´s enough coin involved. So the ranger stepped forward and handed one of the guards a platin piece. These guys immidiatly went nuts. "Hey Josh, i think i need a short rest and a smoke right now!" This was in fact the highest bribe of a simple gateguard in my entire roleplay time.
Lol.
It's my experience that players quickly lose sight of just how fabulously wealthy their characters are once they get out of the "ratcatcher" levels.
Even if they fight the guard, they don't really have to die. Most system you don't die until you reach well into the minus. You name make their punishment bigger, and add a medical bill to it. What I did once was sentence them to the fighting pits. After a few fights they were released by one of the noble who needed expandable assets for a few not so legal jobs.
The best case for adventurers, either they are away from the law, or, they are the law
If the players get arrested, a good way out is a penal unit. They have to deal with robbers or a monster harassing the city and to make sure they really deal with it, place a curse on them that gets removed when they are done.
Great ideas for different cities to feel unique especially when traveling to different regions of the world or completely different worlds.
Another thing to consider is the availability of Zone of Truth.
This is a great video---am often overlooked area from DMs that contributes to Murder Hobos(TM)
I can listen to you talk for hours.
I am thankful for How to be a Great Game Master.
Thank you for this video! Helped a lot since my first ever party will include a klepto tabaxi.
Would be interesting to hear your thoughts on running a game where the party *are* law enforcement. Changes the dynamic for them to have the police as backup rather than an obstacle.
I had my PCs accusing the local mayor of working with a cult even though he was being compelled (they kidnapped his daughter and held her ransom) and the paladin called on the local lictor. I had made it known that they were on the frontier of an authoritarian state and formal legal charges are handled with a large degree of seriousness. Through 4h of legal proceedings (I'm no lawyer) the PCs had argued such a good case that the mayor was found guilty...of treason, dereliction of duty, and cowardice (very big no no for leaders in the setting given that it derives from a military-esque background). The look on their faces when the mayor was summarily hanged from the old tree in the town square, while telling his (then rescued) daughter to remember him not for his failings but the good he did for the people and for her, was a highlight of our current campaign. They now think before breaking the law or committing obvious crimes >:)
Law #1: I'm the GM, so what I say goes. No ifs, ands, or buts about . . . H-hey? Guys? Where's everyone going?
Hmm. Time to find new vict- *ahem*- players again
One of the games I'm in we are currently trying to figure out a way to have one of our characters not be court martial'd for piracy. Our party consists of the accused sailor, a lawyer from the Nine Hells, a prison escapee, a person who top three choices include murder at all times, and a circus acrobat... It's so much fun!
Just give your campaign it’s own Judge Dredd. I AM THE LAW
Alternately, if your setting doesn't support an oppressive, dictatorial form of law enforcement from the actual law enforcement, coming up with a vigilante party might be fun. Your choice as to whether they go the Batman route or the Punisher route as far as whether murdering criminals is ok.
amazing episode, thank you so much!
My game is a modern supernatural setting. Basically, Heroes Unlimited with emphasis on the mutant and magic sections of that game. Heavily influenced by Lovecraft, Marvel, and Men in Black. The players are in an agency who effectively are the "magic" police.
I like this because it gives me a couple of ideas for how the agency, players included, could interact with regular police. Never thought of incorporating a detective. However, my players do have their sort of Nick and Zed to answer to when things go south.
In many towns during the middle ages the "police force" of the time (especially the night's watch) were just as brutish and sometimes just as corrupt as their criminal counterparts. In many cases they were simply men with a "badge" and some rather violent tendencies hehe. Ofcourse this depends on the setting but dont underestimate how far coin can get you when it comes to medieval crime fighters. It's an interesting way to keep the same game features but add a lot more flavour. If the fine for a murder is 1000 gold in the more civilized parts, and you have to first be arrested and taken to court and you pay the fine to the judge lets say. Well, in less civilized areas the pure financial cost can remain the same, but while *officially* the penalty is death with no way around it, perhaps the "police chiefs" of that area are more open to bribes, and would be ready to "consider alternative evidence" for a small "clerical fee" of, let's say.. a 1000 gold? ;)
I personally think the most important thing about the law is that it be reasonable or realistic for the setting you're using. For instance in a medieval setting, a small rural town should not have an infinite amount of guards all of whom are the king's most elite knights. Most small rural towns in the medieval ages had 1 or 2 guards (if any at all) and they would have been inept because if they had any skill they'd have been conscripted into one of the noble's private armies. In too many games I've played in, the dm goes way too far to provide consequences for the players. By all means have consequences, just make it realistic to your setting. For instance, the small rural town I mentioned earlier, use the guards from the back of the MM. The ones who are cr 1/8 with like 5 hp, and keep the number small. This does mean that if the players get out of hand they can just kill the guards with no effort and be done with it. If they kill everyone in the small town there will be no one to give their descriptions to other town guards or the local nobles, so they get away with sacking a village scot free. If anybody survives they can go to the nobles, give out the descriptions of the pc's and now the pc's are wanted all over the noble's territory as bandits. The only place where there is no chance for the pc to escape the law should be in a setting where the law is all powerful, usually an evil empire or an Orwellian dystopia.
" If they kill everyone in the small town there will be no one to give their descriptions to other town guards or the local nobles, so they get away with sacking a village scot free."
Even then you can bet the lord/noble will notice their village got slaughtered and would start an investigation, maybe look for tracks etc.. to try to find the culprits or at the very least tighten security around the neighbouring territory. They might not know who exactly to look for but the guards and common folk should become more suspicious of strangers, or might stop and search your PCs to check for blood/weapons that were tied to the attack.
@@agilemind6241 yes the nobles will notice (eventually), people *may* be more suspicious of strangers unless gangs of roaming bandits are common (and they usually are in dnd games), but I very highly doubt an investigation would turn up anything of relevance, especially since you're likely to be long gone by the time someone notices and stopping every passerby with an axe would be time consuming and ultimately fruitless.
@@clericofchaos1 If an entire village was wiped, there might be magical beef to that investigation, so I wouldn't be too sure about the investigation turning up squat. Heck, unless the players go full terminator and kill everything alive, there will be enough witnesses in the form of livestock, rodents and birds left, that any low-level druid, forest gnome or a range of other people could still interview. Then there are necromantic spells to interrogate the spirits of the victims, and a bunch of divination options.
Also, besides nobles, there is also the very real possibilities of relatives or clan members swearing vengeance and starting to hunt down the culprits for personal reasons. And when wanton slaughtering of children, women and helpless elders is part of your MO, you might soon have a Paladin order hunting you down.
@@stefanb6539 All are possible, though few are probable. Again, bandits in standard D&D settings are common enough to have their own entry in the monster manual. Separating out the attacks of any one group from the hundreds of similar cases is just not worth the effort. Your time and money would be better spent in preparing nearby towns in the area for the possibility of a raid. You're also assuming an awful lot. You should never assume. For instance in this particular scenario, why would you assume that there are druids, wizards, or paladins around to care? I never made any mention of that. For all you know it's actually a historic setting rather than a fantasy setting. you have to ask about details like that before coming up with a counter argument.
@@clericofchaos1 You ARE talking about the Monster Manual and C/R, and now you get cheezy when I assume a D&D-setting? Really?
That's a bit of a disgusting pretentious attitude you show there, explaining to me in that scholarly tone what to assume and what not, don't you think?
About 16:30 - (alleged low) Intelligence of guards in medieval fantasy settings:
I grew up with reading Terry Pratchets Discworld... So you players better don't do anything criminal on MY watch - or I send an angry, fatalistic guy with a loaded swamp-dragon after you...
100 XP for using a Loaded Swamp-dragon. Some just use a swamp-dragon and that never ends well...
Recently, my party viisted Waterdeep. One of the players, a Drow, has been secretly reading forbidden knowledge books to discover a ritual that could turn him into a demon so that he could be with a Succubus he'd met a long while ago.
When the party went to Waterdeep, he wound up joining a slaver gang to get an innocent victim to kill for his ritual, and while he successfully completed it, he was apprehended by the City Watch. Charged with multiple crimes, he was charged (disowned by most of the party) and executed...not that the execution actually worked on him.
Similarly, one member of the party refused, point-blank, to register with the Watchful Order because she has a major problem with authority. That character eventually took off and left the party until they leave Waterdeep, with the player replacing that character with another one for the duration.
Meanwhile, a third member of my party is the opposite; she's a member of the Arcane Court, a magic policewoman. She obeys the laws and even assists them in apprehending her fellow party members if they break them.
(But that said, she doesn't give a toss for laws not about magic).
What I've done with my players is specifically ask them if their characters have read up on the law. If yes then I will remind them when they are about to break one. Otherwise I will warn them only about the most common laws.
Ex: I had a vampire player go read a public law manual and discover that while he was a person under the law that because he was undead he would be executed for felonies. Hench if it's not a fine/misdemeanor type crime he's caught in he's dead. Which given a large number of the city's law enforcement are paladins put him on a leash without me having to directly interfere in his desires.
Ex: I have a player who is living in a grey area of the law as 'evil' detecting outsiders are illegal entities in the regions he's in, but he's an abberation not and 'outsider' so he's fine... Problem being how many guards will know the difference. He's been sending minions into town on his behalf a lot. Can't imagine why.
Another thing I use laws for is flavoring each city abd region. In my orc capital murdering is a fine. In my primary city it's a great deal more than that but there's enough legal system to support a more elaborate response.
The biggest thing I've found is there's a lot to be said for avoiding surprises. I try not to have my players be shocked or confused by when they run foul of my laws. I also give a lot of leway for how smart they play that crime off because that's part of the fun, and rule of fun wins 9/10 times.
I love the new ending theme, but I heavily prefer the older picture in the videos. The news ones with just one color and Guy made me wonder "What? Is this some new thing? Well, I'll maybe check it out later..." and now I am back after a few weeks and, well, feth me. I have missed plenty I guess.
Expanding on that magic crimes point, most police departments have specialized units for dealing with high-stakes situations - like tactical for terrorists and hostage situations, vice for drug rings and prostitution, organized crime, sex crimes, online crimes; as a GM, maybe give some consideration to how law enforcement is organized.
How to deal with the law:
1 fishing rod/hook
1 box of doughnuts
I had a player, who built his character only to kill murder... he had a build, that allowed him, to sneak away from almost any murder szene and did so most of the times... I hate it, when players do not know consequences, so one time, when he murdered the second NPC in a village, a detective showed up and found him within matter of minutes.... well and then the player got toxic because I "killed" his character...
The group should also look at how much time it is and whether or not the juice is worth the squeeze with regards to trying to break out. I have had my character do the time numerous times with and without the group. Maybe I need to make another character in the mean time to not slow the game down.
7:59 Those enemies are probably not going to be recognized in general, given how they are most often chopped into small pieces and on fire.
Make em like the are in real life. Coordinated and over outfitted, tenacious and violent, but extremely dull minded and fearful of and easily intimidated by actual resistance/counter violence. Nothing will be more immersive.
I know this is old, but don't worry, there's apparently a 3rd half of this video.
I really need this because my characters are abusing their freedom so I want them to have consequences 🤔
What exactly are they doing and why have they got away with it so far?
I'd say the first step is to talk with your players. You may find that their behaviour is actually driven by _your_ failure to provide consequences. That is, they _want_ their PCs' actions to have an effect on the game world, you aren't giving them that, so they're turning it up to eleven, so to speak.
Or you may find that they genuinely _want_ a consequence-free "beer-and-pretzels" comedy game. At which point you're going to have to ask yourself if you want to run that game or find new players.
So talk to your players before you try to use in-game punishment to alter their behaviour.
After all, suddenly having fines for littering in a town where the PCs stabbed the fuck out of the mayor in broad daylight last week, is _as_ immersion-breaking as letting them get away with the murder in the first place.
@@nickwilliams8302 i think is pretty much the second, and sadly is mostly one player. We havent gotten to the point of "i guess this table is not for you" but we have been pretty close bcause his actions upset the others.
But the thing is that he explicitly says what he enjoys most of D&D is that to him is sortof a VideoGame where he can trully do whatever he wants, and his interpretation to that is kindof being an asshole to npcs from stealing to torturing or going full murder hobo on them. I tought, welp if thats what you enjoy, a good way to let him still do shenanigans but having him at margin is provide a justice sistem that in game punishes him for his deeds.
@@m.ferashida7422
Okay.
It really sounds like the problem is this player's attitude towards the game, not the character he's created. This is not a problem that can be fixed by in-game sanctions. In-game sanctions are only effective at altering behaviour if the player actually cares about the game world and their character. And I'm getting the feeling that this guy just doesn't.
Have you talked to the other players?
Would they be on board with reining in this player's antics, or are you going to have to lay down the law alone if you want to alter this situation?
What are the other players and their PCs like?
In particular, is it believable that the other PCs would continue to adventure with a psychopath?
@@nickwilliams8302 no, and we have talked to him and their PCs have been harsh with his, telling him to behave and that they do not agree, which has been effective, he is behaving more but i do notice he feels restrain and doesnt enjoy it as much. I tought that maybe if it was the ingame law the one makingnpressure insteado of the other players or the GM he would finnthe challenge funnier andnsmth to work around and maybe succed some times bit not as often to make everyone uncomfortable.
Guilty of destroying imperial property (Death Star).
How can you trust in a blind women swinging her sword wildly ...
I didn't realize SA has a magic crime division.
I wonder if Zim (where i'm from) has one?
1:33 to be fair, that'd is another OG idea for a campaign, prisonbreak....but you know more gnomes, tabaxis and Kenku, oh man.... a prison block of Kenkus all making noise, actually roll a WIS save against SAN xD 12:06 ...wut? 12:32 "CSI: Faerun" 14:45 or they rough you up for a "Bribe" but the guards call it "charity" xD 16:05 OHHH there it is 16:54 MGS "Who's footprints are these???" 18:22 i had a group that was part a guild, and i gave them a legit contacts for them to sign (Printed paper with cursive writing) with a code of conduct *"“Every Hawke shall be called fairly in turn by the list on board of prizes, because over and above their proper share, they are allowed a shift of clothes. But if they defraud the Guild to the value of even one piece in plates, jewels, or items, they shall be punished on the spot. If any hawk were rob another, they shall have his nose and ears slit, and be put on the street where they shall be sure to encounter hardships” :P **22:54** ah yis the "Tiny Net" , i'd be sweet to have a "Salty, hardass, loose cannon" type of paladin.... "Sir Logan Blade" xD golden video topics as always Guy *Tips Helmet*
Would you ever consider putting this into a podcast/audio only format for download? I spend a lot of time driving so I feel it would be good to fill the time with something like this.
We do have a podcast available on our Patreon group. Currently it is How to create Epic Campaigns.
Half my lot kept killing people so I used a powerful wizard to arrest them and end the campaign as almost every NPC I made they slaughtered for no reason. Its what my character would do they would say.
"It's what my character would do." isn't an excuse. They made the character.
But what this sounds like is a bunch of players disrespecting the game. It's not a roleplay issue at all.
Does anyone think a game where players are judges in the judge dred world could work? They're on the side of the law but they dont have to act like goody paladins if they dont want to. Judges are well within the right to execute criminals on the spot if they deem it necessary
Quite a few paladins are expected to execute evildoers if it serves the greater good.
I'm pretty sure Judge Dredd fits the D&D5e Vengeance Paladin pretty well. Possibly even Conqueror Paladin. Paladins are often vigilantes, not guards. They have no due process, they serve whatever they're sworn to serve, and do so with all the implacable might they can muster. When they pick LAW as their oath above all else, you get a being that's truly terrifying.
Look up Vhailor from Planescape: Torment. He was technically a fighter, but the only reason he wasn't a paladin of law is because that game predates the idea that paladins might be anything other than perfect paragons of lawful goodlyness.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge_Dredd:_The_Role-Playing_Game
"Kings Guards"
Recruits most of the guards level 1 to 3 fighters.
Corporal 1 per 7 recruits level 4 to 5 fighters
Sergent 1 per 28 recruits level 6 to 8 fighter
Leutenant 1 per 28 recruits level 9 to 12 fighter or fighter multiclass.
Captain 1 per 56 recruits
And so forth.
Essentially the breakdown of chain of command of an army.
The guards will overwhelm the criminals with sheer numbers and power if the kingdom has enough guards, when the players become known as criminals.
The kingdom might hire specialist bounty hunters of high level if necessary.
Certain crimes by PC... I don't care about realism my 3 "Enforcers" show up and its game over.
@@fhuber7507
If you have genuine "red lines" beyond which you will simply take the PC out of play, I'd suggest explaining to the players where these lines are and simply telling them, "If you cross these lines, your character becomes an NPC."
@@nickwilliams8302
Some things won't be about about turning the character into an NPC... its turning the character into a corpse.
Basic rules of civilization, enforced with the typical iron hand of a medieval ruler's judgement.
They didn't have long term imprisonment. Swift justice by fines, flogging, amputation or worse.
@@fhuber7507
Dead, retired, antagonist of the party, insane.
Unplayable is unplayable. Game over is game over.
My point is that you should give your players fair warning of the consequences they can expect should they behave like a ten year-old in RDR2. In Session Zero and when they're considering it.
And of course, should you be _forced_ to drop the hammer on a PC, you should probably discuss it with your players afterwards. Something along the lines of, "What did you _think_ the result of trying to kill the King in front of his guards, the Court Wizard, the heads of several prominent churches and some of the most legendary warriors in the land was _going_ to be?"
You may have to get them to read this:
theangrygm.com/dear-players-a-better-way/
Hogwarts is in South Africa, confirmed. They have magic police!
Law is, in truth, only something you have to worry about in more modern settings. In medieval settings such as Forgotten Realms, Pathfinder, Dragonlance, or Greyhawk as a PC, you don't have to really worry about the law, per se.
That's because, by and large, as long as you're not breaking any major laws *in town* they really don't give a shit. If you're out of town and slaughtering monsters, bandits, or the like, the town guard isn't going to bother with you. And in town, unless you're doing something egregious, they likewise won't waste their time.
Only if your player characters are complete dipshits will this really ever be an issue. And if you ARE playing with people that constantly do this kind of shit, then you really need to reevaluate who you game with.
I wondered that you did not mention one major aspect of medieval justice:
TORTURE! Until the 18th century, it was completely legal to torture someone suspected of a major crime. Strangely enough, there is almost no fantasy setting wherein torture does happen.
Being accused with treason is another thing that could quite easily happen to you in earlier times. Being rich and powerful was dangerous, as the king could well ask himself why you are amassing all that money and power. Are you plotting against the crown? Even if you are not, it could make a lot of sense to take you down before you and your family get far to powerful. As you do know this, plotting against the king may be your only chance to get out of things alive...
And let us not even speak about superstition and witchcraft...
Wherever possible, always have some spare coin to bribe the law, and hope the law enforcement your are attempting to bribe doesn't put the law above their own greed
Honestly in general even cops today can be..... very stupid. Like i have heard stories of them freaking out by things that they think are there and killing each other doing russian roulette.
When you are more focused upon filling a position with bodies you often go with anyone who will follow and order and not question it. Generally, someone not very smart or trustworthy.
Still waiting on the third half of the video.
Stop right there you sneak theif!
Town marshals, county sheriffs.
I think for a Fantasy setting, you are concentrating too much on organised law enforcement and legal systems. Medieval justice was far more likely to be a matter of personal revenge or clan pride.
Not all TTRPGs have a fantasy setting, let alone a medieval one.
I gotta disagree once more - about the idea that the GM should let the players off the hook if they "don't enjoy being arrested and processed". Well, the law is there, and if the players don't want to be arrested, then they should maybe not break it? Or at least don't get caught - otherwise, the law and judiciary system is just a joke, a facade without meaning and the whole suspension of disbelief collapses, imho.
I get what you're saying, but it really depends on the cause of the in-game lawbreaking.
If the PCs have deliberately become criminals, then the possibility of being caught is part and parcel of that choice. The local Thieves Guild typically pays more than the jobs posted in the Town Hall _precisely because_ of this risk. You make your choice; you take your chances.
But if the criminal behaviour is the result of the _players_ just not taking the game world seriously and doing lolrandom stuff for cheap laughs, the DM needs to address that issue _directly_ before applying in-game punishments to their characters.
But I think where Guy was coming from with this video is how to apply in-game legal consequences (so that, as you pointed out, the verisimilitude of the world isn't broken) in such a way that it doesn't end the campaign.
@@nickwilliams8302 I agree that if the players take the game lighter than the GM, some conversation is needed to settle on expectations from the game. Nothing is more annoying than a GM playing one game and the players another.
As for the consequences of the players breaking the law and potential campaign ending repercussions, I think it's important for the players to realise that it may happen, adding additional layer to their game - by no means does it cheapen the experience.
@@jakubjanicki3989
I'm not saying it cheapens the experience. I'm saying it ends the experience.
If the players have _decided_ that they want to play a criminal campaign and I've been providing that, I'd provide an out. A way they can break out of prison or expiate their crime through some kind of action. Because if I'm running a game, I _want_ to run a game. If I have the PCs executed, I'm not running a game any more.
In other words, this option is about making sure that a campaign that I _want_ to run doesn't end due to a couple of bad dice rolls. So maybe the characters break out of prison and have to run away to sea and be pirates. Or something.
If everyone's still having fun, let's not stop the fun.
@@nickwilliams8302 I'm far from suggesting that the players should be executed, that is never a good idea - even if they kill the king or something they will have at least a night in the dungeon before hanging during which they can run away or make a shady deal or whatnot - I'm only saying that having the players avoid consequences because you don't want to derail your story or game is a bad idea in my opinion.
I'm completely in agreement with you, that having the characters executed is never a good option, without giving them a way to get out and play on - it can be it's own sort of fun too. My only point is that the consequences should in my opinion be there - and should be felt.
Examples you suggest are perfectly good the way I see it. They broke the law, had to run and be pirates - consequence.
@@nickwilliams8302 it would only really be campaign ending if they are all caught, otherwise it is like any other character death. On the other hand if they are ALL caught that is either up to them to find a way out or like any other party wipe, not letting them fail removes all risk
Is the red overheadder supposed to say the law instead of the lore?
I AM THE LAW.
Step One: Open carry
The word you were looking for might be Occultism.
weeeee!
You didn't really touch on- maybe for a future video- what if the PCs go ahead and do kill that first guard/police/sheriff that catches them. How can you deal with making the law still meaningful with a group that decides to be the villain?
What happens in the real world if a criminal kills a cop to evade arrest?
I mean, the other cops don't just say, "Well, looks like we have to let the matter drop." do they?
No. The state just piles on more and more overwhelming force until the criminal is apprehended or killed. Killing cops doesn't make the PCs troubles with the law go away, _it makes them worse._
As @Nick Willaims said - if the PCs want to be evil, then they must face that. Killing city watch, police etc. is a terrible crime, and often gains more wrath then just a civilian. I would have the law desperate to find them. I would also have the widows hire bounty hunters to find them. And quite possibly have the god of evil/temptation send a rep. to invite them to join the evil cult for protection. Of course in joining the evil cult they need to do things -which keeps the party on track from a plot perspective.
2nd comment and 1st like
You look drunk in this video. Lol.