It would be great if you could arrange an interview with the designer given your connections. There is one on UA-cam already but it is in Polish. I would love to learn more about the design decisions behind the changes compared to the original as well as the changes in Tainted Grail 2.0.
I believe one of the developers does a weekly Q&A livestream? You might be able to ask there. Unfortunately, I don't remember if it's on Facebook or UA-cam. It's one or the other, but I don't remember which.
Your observation about needing to remember a path at a location that you’ve gone down before and the game not having a way to prompt your memory is spot on. And something I think Roll Player Adventures does well with the keywords and titles.
@@BoardGameCo Would be nice a detailed review comparison between WildAscent and Storm Sunder ,for those that can only pick one , you told you like both , but which one you like more and why?
Tainted Grail is an amazing experience! I did have to house rule past some of the late game grind to finish the story. That said, I am looking forward to finishing wave 2 with the new rules when I get time.
Found this an interesting game in terms of how it handles solo/4-player. I can see solo being insanely repetitive. However, with 4 players, it's great because you can bounce ideas, locations and battles around each other. Keeping a journal is a must - just writing the location, and the places you've been, things you've interacted with. Solo is great for the narrative because you can just enjoy the story at your pace, but our group was able to be engaged the whole time... especially when individual options impact the whole game and we can remind that person of their life choices every time we play ;)
There were certain infinite loops to get resources and no time limits at certain points, (also easy to avoid or kill anything on the map when strong enough)so instead of doing infinite loop at a certain point we just said you have as much of x resource as you need.
This is soooo much more cautious than what I'd expect in the usual vein for your thoughts on this game. I "knew" I didn't have to worry about the gamefound deal in terms of you selling me a bunch of crap, but I wonder if the opposite may really pose an issue. The comparison at the end though, below ISS Vanguard, around 7th Continent really brought it home for me. I would genuinely recommend doing this more often - not only is it a great way to deliver a somewhat quantitative how you feel about a game, it also sort of rewards your regular viewers who know what those comparisons mean in the context of how much you like the games you compare against.
Yep, ultimately because of the perception of bias in these cases, if anything I tend to drift 5% in the other direction to remove any potential hint at all....I'm likely to be more critical and less excited since they could be interested the wrong way. And that's also why I tried gauging this in terms of where I am with other experiences...to be as specific as possible.
@@BoardGameCo fully understand why and respect the effort this must mean. I did expect (and selfishly hope) for a much more excited Alex, but the factual information got me what I wanted in the end. Selfishly hope you're not forced to hold back how you feel too much, but will now look forward to see the little ways in which you answer that challenge and improve in directions I didn't see coming.
They should definitely have the status paths at the top of the pages like Roll player adventures. Also they should make the audio app to remember if you've been to a location before.
Definitely Oathsworn, without a shadow of a doubt. Playing the original Tainted Grail campaign and Oathsworn at the moment and I am always keen to play the next chapter in Oathsworn. TG not so much and I am not sure that it will stay in my collection.
@@Wealtharch they are very different games with Oathsworn being a boss battler, with a city/exploration element and TG being an exploration/survival game. I would rate Oathsworn as one of the top 5 games in my collection and I first started playing games in the 70s!
Tainted Grail was fine as a board game experience for me, just fine. I was honestly disappointed since I had very high expectations (probably unfairly so) going in. I will definitely skip Kings of Ruin since I cannot justify getting it as I have yet to complete the base Tainted Grail's campaign.
I pledged this based on reviews (didn't play first game). But now I see Oathsworn is going to have a 2nd edition next week (haven't played it either) and am thinking maybe I should wait for that one instead. Any recommendations if your were only going to get one? My game group seems to prefer more action and less story/reading. The games we have played most (completed or have played 50+ sessions) are Gloomhaven, Imperial Assault, and Shadows of Brimstone.
I've tried the original, loved the first scenario, but then quickly got bored of the same type of combat each time (which is not mechanically complex enough to catch my interest). The story in that one is good, but the gameplay has issues. Going back through locations and not remembering what you did where (an app with tracking would be soooo much better), grinding for insignificant gains (which is why we made the game easier in several ways), all of this means that I'm likely going to abandon it after the three scenarios I played. I'm much more interested in boss battle games where the battle itself is the main element and is different enough from play to play. Oathsworn (minus the story which at least in the first episode mainly misleads you with pointless clues...) seems much more my type of game.
I think game will need / benefit from Echoes of the Past 2 to learn more about your character. Hopefully something campaign unlocks. In addition, the voiced app and usage of it was excellent so also essential for best possible experience.
Completely agree regarding your comments about exploration and that's why for me 7th Continent is miles ahead of this. Don't get me wrong, I like Tainted Grail, but I absolutely love 7th Continent. Specifically, I'm referring to the fact that 7C often has multiple cards with the same number, one (or more) green and one gold. Often, if you do a certain task it'll tell you to banish green card #xyz. Then if you revisit that location you'll experience the gold card instead and the world will remember that you've done that task. This removes the problem TG has where you need to remember which sequence of options you need to revisit in the narrative book. If the game remembers things so I don't have to, that's a win! (Admittedly in both games I still feel the need to make many, many notes!) People complain that sorting out all the cards in 7C gets tedious, and it's obviously not my favourite task in the world, but the fact that it allows for mechanisms like this means I give it a lot of leeway. Also, Shana Tova!
Tainted grail literally has the exact same system you described in 7C. Locations get replaced with others and you write down which location to go to instead of. Replace location 71 with 72
Well sure, but it's used less than 10 times in the whole game. But you're right, I should've been more precise and said something like '7C uses this system much more often, and in a much better way' (better because TG doesn't always do it even in a few places when it would be useful)
Is no one confused why the ISS Vanguard sundrop is so much worse than the sundrop in previous awaken realms games? It looks almost like a flat grey than any real sundrop...
I did single wave shipping so I don’t have it to physically compare, but I thought I read somewhere that they were changing the color a bit to give it a “colder” feel bc of the space theme. Regardless, a bit disappointing that they’re a step back. I’d expect an overall improvement on the technique each iteration
I take your point that the combat mechanic can get repetitive after a time. Perhaps combat needs to be expanded in this genre of games? You could have a scenario battle map like Rove or D&D. Making it more like an encounter with movement and tactics will make it more engaging long term.
Oathsworn does exactly this, it has a much more involved combat system which uses both cards and a map, with movement, positioning, and sequencing of actions being very important. But that one I feel is a boss battler with a tacked on story.
Hearing you talk I think I understand my views on Tainted Grail more - I think I would like it more as two games. It has an innotative combate system which would make a great solo deck builder game battle on rails. The story is also great but could do with far lighter resource and encouter management.
I would also love a video review of the 3 wave 2 campaigns of the original Tainted Grail. I cannot find any on UA-cam ( just some unboxing). I understand that is a lot of work but maybe there is somebody in your network who already played them and can help out
@@timraley8299 Thanks for offering to share your experience! I will definitely buy Kings of Ruin and I am trying to decide whether to buy the original three campaigns and possibly the Red Death if it is offered. I have seen mostly positive reviews for Fall of Avalon with some concerns about grind and difficulty (but again, for the most part positive). I was wondering if the quality of the story and gameplay is equally good in the wave 2 campaigns. Thanks!!
@@timraley8299 Thanks a lot for your insight! Stretch goals reviews are very rare. I figure most reviewers don't finish the base game before reviewing (understandably given the time commitment), let alone getting into the stretch goals 😊
Tainted Grail 1.0 was a flawed master piece. The grind was real, but not a dealbreaker. The game is three parts Combat Exploration Resource Management. Just make sure to get Skills (kinda like feats/powers) that help with resource management.
Also it was too long. Me and my friend played around 10-12 evenings and then we had new jobs/family situations...and we felt full. We had done almost all the game offerered on a mechanical sense. But we had only finished chapter 8 out of 14 or so on the adventure
How does this prototype compare to the prototype of 7th Citadel? I feel like both games could hold a similar spot in my collection but wondering which you prefer from the little you’ve played of both.
@@BoardGameCo I was hoping you would say that. TG looks so good except for combat/diplomacy. I'm all in on 7th and I wondered the same thing as jverdin.
Yeah..I’m saving money for Rove instead. I hope it’s great with a lot of depth in characters development and different enough from Gloomhaven with a story that matters.Thanks for the video Alex.
Just curious if you think the combat / diplomacy would be more interesting over the long-term if it was dice driven rather than deck driven. (And I guess there's always the good old house-ruled auto-resolve and just enjoy the exploration)
Thank you, this was very helpful. I’ve decided NOT to back KoR. I heard enough keywords that guide me to believe that it’s not an extraordinary game in the ways I’m looking for. Key comments like “sameness,” “tedious combat ( not to be confused with complexity)” in ways I don’t enjoy, and most importantly “not invested in the characters journey”…this is a big one!! I’ve decided to back Dungeon Universalis instead. I don’t have unlimited funds so I have to make the best decision with the $300 I put aside to back 1 game this year.
I got bored by the repetitive combat and diplomacy in Tainted Grail very quickly and like you said I skipped it. Until I saw your video I thought I was the only one doing that 😂
AR really need to not worry so much about "____ hours of gameplay!!" because yeah the repetitive aspects in all their games really drain the experience of fun. Just make it all unique content and aim for half or even quarter of the amount of hours. that would still be like 20+ hours. As it stands i'd never play the original TG again, or even try the expansions
It would be great if you could arrange an interview with the designer given your connections. There is one on UA-cam already but it is in Polish. I would love to learn more about the design decisions behind the changes compared to the original as well as the changes in Tainted Grail 2.0.
I believe one of the developers does a weekly Q&A livestream? You might be able to ask there. Unfortunately, I don't remember if it's on Facebook or UA-cam. It's one or the other, but I don't remember which.
@@DJcystrom it’s every monday on Facebook
Your observation about needing to remember a path at a location that you’ve gone down before and the game not having a way to prompt your memory is spot on. And something I think Roll Player Adventures does well with the keywords and titles.
Yep, I don't even know if I would have had a solution if not for playing RPA
@@BoardGameCo Would be nice a detailed review comparison between WildAscent and Storm Sunder ,for those that can only pick one , you told you like both , but which one you like more and why?
@@technoartfest8708 king of average did a comparison already. Search for “tainted grail cage match “
Nice first look. Looking forward to your next vid on this topic and seeing how your initial perceptions of the game evolve and play out.
Likewise :-)
Tainted Grail is an amazing experience! I did have to house rule past some of the late game grind to finish the story. That said, I am looking forward to finishing wave 2 with the new rules when I get time.
Glad to hear :)
Found this an interesting game in terms of how it handles solo/4-player. I can see solo being insanely repetitive. However, with 4 players, it's great because you can bounce ideas, locations and battles around each other. Keeping a journal is a must - just writing the location, and the places you've been, things you've interacted with. Solo is great for the narrative because you can just enjoy the story at your pace, but our group was able to be engaged the whole time... especially when individual options impact the whole game and we can remind that person of their life choices every time we play ;)
There were certain infinite loops to get resources and no time limits at certain points, (also easy to avoid or kill anything on the map when strong enough)so instead of doing infinite loop at a certain point we just said you have as much of x resource as you need.
I am planning on getting all of this, I loved Ether Fields and this game is considered a better version of it.
Very objective review, thanks! I’m glad that ISS Vanguard had it’s expansion on w2 for some new (maybe) mechanism after the same sequenced rounds😅
Glad you enjoyed :)
This is soooo much more cautious than what I'd expect in the usual vein for your thoughts on this game. I "knew" I didn't have to worry about the gamefound deal in terms of you selling me a bunch of crap, but I wonder if the opposite may really pose an issue.
The comparison at the end though, below ISS Vanguard, around 7th Continent really brought it home for me. I would genuinely recommend doing this more often - not only is it a great way to deliver a somewhat quantitative how you feel about a game, it also sort of rewards your regular viewers who know what those comparisons mean in the context of how much you like the games you compare against.
Yep, ultimately because of the perception of bias in these cases, if anything I tend to drift 5% in the other direction to remove any potential hint at all....I'm likely to be more critical and less excited since they could be interested the wrong way. And that's also why I tried gauging this in terms of where I am with other experiences...to be as specific as possible.
@@BoardGameCo fully understand why and respect the effort this must mean. I did expect (and selfishly hope) for a much more excited Alex, but the factual information got me what I wanted in the end.
Selfishly hope you're not forced to hold back how you feel too much, but will now look forward to see the little ways in which you answer that challenge and improve in directions I didn't see coming.
They should definitely have the status paths at the top of the pages like Roll player adventures. Also they should make the audio app to remember if you've been to a location before.
Yep, that would be excellent.
Which game do you prefer? This or oathsworn? I can only afford one.
Oathsworn
Definitely Oathsworn, without a shadow of a doubt. Playing the original Tainted Grail campaign and Oathsworn at the moment and I am always keen to play the next chapter in Oathsworn. TG not so much and I am not sure that it will stay in my collection.
Thanks for answering this. This was my exact question
@@Wealtharch they are very different games with Oathsworn being a boss battler, with a city/exploration element and TG being an exploration/survival game. I would rate Oathsworn as one of the top 5 games in my collection and I first started playing games in the 70s!
I appreciate the extra details
Tainted Grail was fine as a board game experience for me, just fine. I was honestly disappointed since I had very high expectations (probably unfairly so) going in.
I will definitely skip Kings of Ruin since I cannot justify getting it as I have yet to complete the base Tainted Grail's campaign.
Totally reasonable.
Love the first game. Easy in my top 10. Will get this for sure.
Glad to hear :)
I pledged this based on reviews (didn't play first game). But now I see Oathsworn is going to have a 2nd edition next week (haven't played it either) and am thinking maybe I should wait for that one instead. Any recommendations if your were only going to get one?
My game group seems to prefer more action and less story/reading. The games we have played most (completed or have played 50+ sessions) are Gloomhaven, Imperial Assault, and Shadows of Brimstone.
I've tried the original, loved the first scenario, but then quickly got bored of the same type of combat each time (which is not mechanically complex enough to catch my interest). The story in that one is good, but the gameplay has issues. Going back through locations and not remembering what you did where (an app with tracking would be soooo much better), grinding for insignificant gains (which is why we made the game easier in several ways), all of this means that I'm likely going to abandon it after the three scenarios I played.
I'm much more interested in boss battle games where the battle itself is the main element and is different enough from play to play. Oathsworn (minus the story which at least in the first episode mainly misleads you with pointless clues...) seems much more my type of game.
Nice video, with good points. Im definitely interested in this game.
Glad to hear :)
I noticed that in your description, it says "Kickstarter Link" but it's gamefound.
Since he now works for Gamefound, this is a grievous sin lol (this is a joke...in case someone is reading this and doesn't understand nuance)
Fixed thanks!
I think game will need / benefit from Echoes of the Past 2 to learn more about your character. Hopefully something campaign unlocks. In addition, the voiced app and usage of it was excellent so also essential for best possible experience.
Would love to play these games but I gotta pack up the table by sundown.
Ya, that can be a deal breaker to any big campaign experne.ce
Completely agree regarding your comments about exploration and that's why for me 7th Continent is miles ahead of this. Don't get me wrong, I like Tainted Grail, but I absolutely love 7th Continent.
Specifically, I'm referring to the fact that 7C often has multiple cards with the same number, one (or more) green and one gold. Often, if you do a certain task it'll tell you to banish green card #xyz. Then if you revisit that location you'll experience the gold card instead and the world will remember that you've done that task. This removes the problem TG has where you need to remember which sequence of options you need to revisit in the narrative book.
If the game remembers things so I don't have to, that's a win! (Admittedly in both games I still feel the need to make many, many notes!)
People complain that sorting out all the cards in 7C gets tedious, and it's obviously not my favourite task in the world, but the fact that it allows for mechanisms like this means I give it a lot of leeway.
Also, Shana Tova!
Tainted grail literally has the exact same system you described in 7C. Locations get replaced with others and you write down which location to go to instead of. Replace location 71 with 72
Well sure, but it's used less than 10 times in the whole game. But you're right, I should've been more precise and said something like '7C uses this system much more often, and in a much better way' (better because TG doesn't always do it even in a few places when it would be useful)
Is no one confused why the ISS Vanguard sundrop is so much worse than the sundrop in previous awaken realms games? It looks almost like a flat grey than any real sundrop...
Hmm, haven't looked closely yet.
I did single wave shipping so I don’t have it to physically compare, but I thought I read somewhere that they were changing the color a bit to give it a “colder” feel bc of the space theme. Regardless, a bit disappointing that they’re a step back. I’d expect an overall improvement on the technique each iteration
@@G0F15H I'm trying to offload the sundrop below cost with no luck..
I take your point that the combat mechanic can get repetitive after a time. Perhaps combat needs to be expanded in this genre of games? You could have a scenario battle map like Rove or D&D. Making it more like an encounter with movement and tactics will make it more engaging long term.
Oathsworn does exactly this, it has a much more involved combat system which uses both cards and a map, with movement, positioning, and sequencing of actions being very important. But that one I feel is a boss battler with a tacked on story.
I think they're all just examples of different games trying to achieve different things.
Hearing you talk I think I understand my views on Tainted Grail more - I think I would like it more as two games. It has an innotative combate system which would make a great solo deck builder game battle on rails. The story is also great but could do with far lighter resource and encouter management.
I would also love a video review of the 3 wave 2 campaigns of the original Tainted Grail. I cannot find any on UA-cam ( just some unboxing). I understand that is a lot of work but maybe there is somebody in your network who already played them and can help out
@@timraley8299 Thanks for offering to share your experience! I will definitely buy Kings of Ruin and I am trying to decide whether to buy the original three campaigns and possibly the Red Death if it is offered. I have seen mostly positive reviews for Fall of Avalon with some concerns about grind and difficulty (but again, for the most part positive). I was wondering if the quality of the story and gameplay is equally good in the wave 2 campaigns. Thanks!!
@@timraley8299 Thanks a lot for your insight! Stretch goals reviews are very rare. I figure most reviewers don't finish the base game before reviewing (understandably given the time commitment), let alone getting into the stretch goals 😊
@@timraley8299 I am a crappy painter, but I still have fun doing it 😂
Thank you Tim!
Tainted Grail 1.0 was a flawed master piece.
The grind was real, but not a dealbreaker. The game is three parts
Combat
Exploration
Resource Management.
Just make sure to get Skills (kinda like feats/powers) that help with resource management.
Also it was too long.
Me and my friend played around 10-12 evenings and then we had new jobs/family situations...and we felt full. We had done almost all the game offerered on a mechanical sense. But we had only finished chapter 8 out of 14 or so on the adventure
Totally respect that. My personal preference for campaigns is around 10-20 hours but I know everyone has their own threshhold.
How does this prototype compare to the prototype of 7th Citadel? I feel like both games could hold a similar spot in my collection but wondering which you prefer from the little you’ve played of both.
From prototype experiences alone, 7th Citadel.
@@BoardGameCo Thanks Alex!
@@BoardGameCo I was hoping you would say that. TG looks so good except for combat/diplomacy. I'm all in on 7th and I wondered the same thing as jverdin.
In terms of open world choose your own adventure, I wonder if Destinies is a better experience than Tainted Grail?
Very different feels due to coop vs comp
Yeah..I’m saving money for Rove instead. I hope it’s great with a lot of depth in characters development and different enough from Gloomhaven with a story that matters.Thanks for the video Alex.
Happy to help :)
Just curious if you think the combat / diplomacy would be more interesting over the long-term if it was dice driven rather than deck driven.
(And I guess there's always the good old house-ruled auto-resolve and just enjoy the exploration)
Thank you, this was very helpful. I’ve decided NOT to back KoR. I heard enough keywords that guide me to believe that it’s not an extraordinary game in the ways I’m looking for. Key comments like “sameness,” “tedious combat ( not to be confused with complexity)” in ways I don’t enjoy, and most importantly “not invested in the characters journey”…this is a big one!! I’ve decided to back Dungeon Universalis instead. I don’t have unlimited funds so I have to make the best decision with the $300 I put aside to back 1 game this year.
I got bored by the repetitive combat and diplomacy in Tainted Grail very quickly and like you said I skipped it. Until I saw your video I thought I was the only one doing that 😂
I imagine there are a lot that sometimes choose to skip.
Instant back,
Super excited for this one :)
Ty for this video!
Always :)
AR really need to not worry so much about "____ hours of gameplay!!" because yeah the repetitive aspects in all their games really drain the experience of fun. Just make it all unique content and aim for half or even quarter of the amount of hours. that would still be like 20+ hours. As it stands i'd never play the original TG again, or even try the expansions
I think everyone is different, I'm with you personally, but for some they actually really explore these universes.
I never played Tainted Grail but it sounds like a deeper app-less Destinies. Too bad I didn't like Destinies to begin with so this is a pass from me.
While different, definite degrees of overlap to the genre.
Looking forward to this 👍
Was helpuful. Will remain neglective towards this one. Still have enough campaign games to play (e.g. ISS Vanguard).
Totally fair :)
A tainted Tainted discussion. Lol.
Ok guys stop the party, 7 citadels is delayed a full year, now we riot
Whoa...
Shana Tova 😃
Thank you!
What a wierd mecanic to do damage.....dont like it so much :/ to many many thing (for me)
Totally respect that. It's not for everyone.
@@BoardGameCo Agree