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Power Meter Metrics: Pedal Smoothness and Torque Effectiveness Explained
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- Опубліковано 7 сер 2024
- Pedal Smoothness (PS) and Torque Effectiveness (TE) have been part of the ANT+ Power Meter specification since 2012, yet their usefulness and application is still very much unknown (or they're simply not useful at all..). Here's an overview of what Pedal Smoothness (PS) and Torque Effectiveness (TE) are on paper and in action here in the Lama Lab. Remember to click SUBSCRIBE to support this UA-cam channel: goo.gl/QS5YZg
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#cycling #powermeter #garmin
Im glad you did a video on this after our conversation a couple of weeks ago, now I know what it all means.
This subject has been boiling in my head, thanks for explaining, greatly appreciated
I have a page on my bolt with pedal smoothness, left/right power balance, and rpm. I switch over to this screen for a couple minutes every 3rd or 4th ride to check in on my metrics. Thanks for the video!
Great one Llama pedal smoothness was a mystery to me. I always felt my 20% was embarrassing.
Nope. That just means you're a human.... or an advanced machine who can pedal like a real human. ;)
Great informative video and valuable input found in this community of subscribers. This is refreshing when compared to most YT channels. New subscriber! Thanks.
Cheers. I don’t have a power meter yet. But when I do, I’ll definitely be checking these out 👍🏻
Love this guy and the videos he produces!! It’s like he’s one of us!
Cheers. I'm actually a llama. ;)
Hi Shane, Very informative! very clear information. Thanks, T Mo
Finally, a quality explanation. Thank's mate, great job. Now my next question is will it help me follow Slane's wheel up Stelvio in a few weeks. It's okay, I know the answer sadly
Great video. Will definately try this out!
Great video! Very well explained
Great content!
Good video, very nice to know. Wonder how the stages Dual reads 🤷♂️
Thanks for this I didn't have a clue. The data is on my Garmin but I didnt understand the figures.
I have a 4iii left crank powermeter and after a recent update they show torque effectiveness and pedal smoothness on the edge 520. I think it's quite useful. I have another bike with Giant powermeter pro and that doesn't show torque effectiveness and pedal smoothness. It's a pity because they also calculate those numbers but they can only be shown on their own App on the smartphone. And it is not recorded, just live in action.
thx for the great video, very useful. I would love a video describing the jungle in what power sensors will work with what computers when it comes to pedaling analysis. will your Garmin only work with your Garmin computers or could you swap that into for example a wahoo or Hammerhead computer etc? For me, it's a jungle.
Hi Shane, thanks for this! Quick question on your test setup are you using your Garmin pedals as a powermeter of the giant power pro??? Thanks for letting me (us) know!
Great video, thanks a lot! That data was collected by your Giant PowerPro or by your Vector pedals?
Thank you, this is really useful. I've it on my cycle computer but other than get that I'm in the average for both smoothness and effectiveness, I'm not sure to how those info could help.me to improve...
That's the unknown... how we can use these metrics. Or if they're useful at all.
I must have the motor gene as my PS is typically between 50-60% with the max I have seen it display at 63%. I use the SRM PM9 with PC8 head unit ..
Good to know my metrics are not that bad!
So I'm getting the vibe that these metrics aren't that useful - I was curious to find out what a 'good' percentage would be, after seeing the data from my Assioma Duo pedals (19/21% PS and 72/73% TE)... I guess at least I know I'm an actual human being and not a robot - there's a use case for you! 😆
For fatigue I would think power/lack thereof would be a better indicator than TE. Like you mentioned regarding PS when trying to get to 40% that it was very uncomfortable, I'm curious if similar to "optimal cadence" if that is subjective to how each rider feels or if they are standard levels to aim for, thanks Shane. These metrics are very intriguing but still trying to determine effectiveness for the "weekend warrior".
Lower power is the result of fatigue, yep. Additional metrics (maybe these, maybe not these) could give an insight into why or where the lower power is occurring.
Thanks for the video. I do use them while riding my Wahoo Kickr on Zwift. I believe aiming for the perimeters considered normal help to confirm bike fit adjustments. What do you think about that?
I think that could be a good use of the metrics.
I do use it after the ride. 52/48 lr balance on real pedal power meter is part of the story but you add to that smoothness and torque efficiency and it can tell me more of quadracep l/r balance and simultaneously hamstring l/r balance. Think about this smoothness of 30 is how many times more effective than 25? 5/25 is 20 % so if you do 30 and I do 25 then, if we have equal peak torgue values, your power output is 20% more than mine. I'm pumping 300 watts while you are pumping 360 watts. They say a smooth stroke is more cardiovascularly demanding. True. But why not work on pulling a bit? If you can make your body efficient at it, then it's free power. Try your hardest in shoe a, then try shoe b. Are you pushing down harder? No they are equal. So pedal smoothness then is directly proportional to power output. Smoothness is avg/ peak torque or avg powr/ peak power. Peak power on the stroke doesn't change much so avg Power, which is real power is the one to target, or at least don't neglect it as your down ward pushing is getting stronger.
Hi GPLama love your informative info. I have Power2Max NG Power Meter. Wanted to ask if i can add Pedal Smoothness and Torque Effectiveness for my Garmin 830 please ?
Yep. See this video about enabling a 30hr (ride hour) trial mode on an NGeco ua-cam.com/video/lNIycxGof-s/v-deo.html
Last couple of lengthy rides I’ve had PS of 18% TE of about 70%. I’ve never understood these numbers and now I’m pretty sure I don’t need to.
I’ve just bought some Favero Assisoma duos and I have a Garmin 810. Can I use my Garmin 810 to work this out or can I use my computer? Help would be appreciated. Thanks
I’m not familiar with the older 810 unit sorry. The Garmin support site should have the info if it supports PS and TE.
Thanks for shedding some light on these rather obscure metrics. Are these still meaningful with single sided power?
1/2 as meaningful, I guess. :)
Hi GPLama love your informative info/reviews, totally off subject here but i have a question for you i'm looking to take my first trip to Europe/Germany with a couple of flight transfers in between with my carbon disc road bike but i'm not sure what bike case to buy for my pride and joy there are sooo many on the market to choose from can you recommend a bag or hard case for me? i am currently looking at BKND Helium or the Topeak Pakgo x.any input would be greatly appreciated.
I've used an EVOC soft-case once to Fiji (worked well). I've travelled a LOT with my Thule RoundTrip Pro bike case which is a semi-hard case (ua-cam.com/video/x-8DUM3kpcY/v-deo.html) and once with the Elite Borson (ua-cam.com/video/MV9TUTQjsAE/v-deo.html). No easy answers though sorry. It depends on your preference/bike/size and how confident you are with your airline(s). Good packing is essential. Hope this helps mate.
Hi GP Lama, thanks for the video. Any chance you could explain the best way to use the Assioma duo with the kickr core and Garmin head unit? I’ve been using the Garmin edge 530 with the kickr core controlling the power for intervals or steady state through Garmin workouts. I’ve just upgraded to the assioma duo pedals. Can I do the same controlled workouts but get the data from the duo?
I don't think the Garmin can do power matching like Zwift/TrainerRoad/FulGaz etc can do. I believe when connected to a smart trainer it'll take power from the trainer only and not from an external power meter such as the pedals. I'd need to test/confirm to be 100% sure (if this isn't already documented by Garmin somewhere).
@shaneMiller, can you sir please tell me what Garmin model do you use in this video?
I just bought my Favero duo Shi peddals and i like the live feature that you are presenting here!
Thank you!
I believe this was a Garmin Edge 1030.
@@gplama wow i got luck and you comment, i'm so happy.
Thank you very, very much!
Wow thanks Shane! I though nobody really cared about these bells and whistles. I am looking into getting an edge 530 but the Company promoting the First Beat data have not reply to my Garmin forum post. It would be great if you had the time to make a video on each of these metrics the new 530 supports. (Bar FTP, Calories Burned and FTP which are well known industry standards)
There is info on the First Beat website but I have no idea how to integrate most of it into my training.
VO2max Fitness Level
Functional Threshold Power (FTP)
Training Effect: Aerobic
Training Effect: Anaerobic
Real-Time Performance Condition
Calories Burned
Training Load
Training Status
Training Load Balance
Workout Labels
Recovery Time Advisor
Quick Stress Level Test
Heat and Altitude Acclimatization
Respiration Rate
I am not sure if you feel the same but do we need all of these metrics, obviously some are more useful than others. I just wanted to know if you think metrics which are not industry standard and basically (scientifically??) made up by a certain company are even worth looking at? Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers David. There's two sides to this. Firstly identifying what these metrics are and how they're calculated (what this video is about), then there's the discussion around how those metrics are applied to training..... and that's a whole other topic, and it's hotly debated. I've had a few people misinterpret this video as "promoting" these pedal metrics... when my intent was to simply define what they were for people who hadn't looked into them. As for the additional metrics the Edge 530 has.... I'll first need a unit to get my head around the functions. IMO, both Garmin and FirstBeat should be more forthcoming in regard to how to use these metrics and why they exist in the first place. Ray and I discuss this in the latest episode of our FIT File Podcast.
Pedal Smoothness and Torque Effectiveness are best used by a bike fitter, so that they can find the most effective position on your bike.
I just got the Assioma Duos and continue to feel great about the decision to buy them. @Shane Miller - GPLama when will the Assiomas get cycling dynamics?
Dear Anthony,
Thank you for your kind reply and useful information.
The new firmware will be released in a very short time, I suppose few weeks.
I remain at your complete disposal for any further technical request.
Best regards,
Elia Lorenzetto
FAVERO ELECTRONICS srl
@@visualsbyac Any news on the cycling dynamics update? First time I've heard it's coming soon is end of last year :/
Hi Shane - can you explain the diff btw pedal smoothness as measured here and pedaling uniformity as demo'd in your Nov 3, 2017 video on the Direto?
Off the top of my head, nope. I'd have to loop back and look at those. iirc the Direto does the pedal peanut - which is a circle with 360 power application and more peanutty with typical pedal stroke power application.
@@gplama - well, the smoothness number was in the 20-30% type of range, and the uniformity number was in the 50-60% kind of range but they both claimed to be avg/max. I have a guess as to the difference, but thought i'd ask.
Thank you.
? Elliptical chain ring metrics? Your opinion without a lama-lab test? Especially the torque metric.
Not something I’ve used sorry. Not enough data to convince me they’re worth the time. And not enough power meters support them to give good/accurate data I can use to check other meters against.
I have been using it.... I feel it's a placebo effect. Bees-dick difference. (miniscule)
GP I see the Power Pro back on the bike, did the firmware correct it's issues you found? Thanks! DZ.
Dino Z yeah I'd love to know too. Got them on my bike this year and they seem all over the place
I can’t get my giant power meter to show pedal smooth % on my garmin?
As pertains to pedal Smoothness, does the percentage map to the amount of the pedaling circle to which we are applying force?
I'd say yes based on his description .... He doesn't like pulling up on his up stroke and claims it isn't efficient and is uncomfortable to pedal full cycles?
Is good to understand TE and PS but I think that Gross Power Absorbed (GPA) and Gross Power Released (GPR) and the other asociated metrics as Asimmetry index or Kurtotic index are more useful for understand and optimize pedaling tecnique :)
Are more useful or would be more useful? I haven't heard of those associated with cycling/power meters.
@@gplama Sorry, I did not explain that point. I use them in WKO4, it is likely that they are only there then. They are very useful metrics because they consider all the power that each leg releases (GPR) and the power that one leg absorbs from the other (GPA). With these metrics it becomes easier to identify asymmetries that can derive from the strength of one leg over the other, poor bike fitting, and so on. In my case, I managed to identify issues of "pedaling technique" that I could correct so that my right leg worked a little more and at the same time did not absorb so much power from my left leg (my strong leg). Take a look at google and you'll find better explanations than my summary here. ;) By the way, I use Assioma Duo power meter.
Could we use it for the right saddle height
Very similar numbers to yours using the Assiomas. L/R average power balance though is slightly off, 52% left, 48% right and I thought my right was the stronger one. Anyone would like to share more on this? Is your balance 50:50?
Balance... hmm... It's not static. It'll change based on power levels, fatigue, and terrain. I'm pretty close to 50:50 on average.... Today's 42km ride I was 48/52 on one power meter and 51/49 on the other.... so anything within a few % is to be taken as 'good enough'... and only accurate as long as each power meter (LR = two) is reading correctly.
@@gplama thanks for sharing Shane.
I was convinced that I was much weaker on my left leg until I got duo power meters. I was amazed to find out that my left leg consistently produces more power than my right.
When I put some Powertaps on my indoor exercise bike I was surprised to see 52:48 or 51:49, since I am right-handed (and right-footed?). A few months later I put some Assiomas on my road bike, only to see similar results. Coincidentally, I was seeing a physiotherapist about a probable case of (medial) patellofemoral syndrome on my right knee, who diagnosed weak glutes and tight quads on the right side. Consequently paying more attention to my pedalling dynamics, I observed that my right leg was not applying force right to the bottom of the stroke (possibly because of the tightness). Now I am aware of that, my balance is slowing improving. To me dual-side pedals and their metrics are a boon.
I'm using a new set of Garmin Vector 3 (2nd time having these, ridden lots of k's with them). I wanted to check my pedal smoothness and torque effectiveness and they aren't reading. Pedals are linked, everything else is working properly (left/right power, power phase, balance, etc). Only things I can't get to work are Ped. Smooth. and Torque Effect.
Any ideas?
Check the paired sensor options.
@@gplama thought I poked around in the settings, but maybe I missed it. Are you talking in Connect or on my Edge 830?
@@HolmsOnBikes On the Edge.
I'm an idiot. Didn't see the toggle to turn them on. Does it use more battery or something? Why are they 2 metrics that you can turn on or off?
could you repeat that test when standing or even sprinting? would be interesting...
Cycling Dynamics are more interesting for those. If anyone is looking at their PS or TE during sprinting, they're doing it wrong ;)
How to set up garmin vector 3 and garmin 1040 to read torque effectiveness ?
Should be within the paired sensor settings.
Hi, Good video!
If you are 75% effective at 175 Watts this means you are wasting 58.3W and Your total power is 233.3W?
I have around same numbers with easy pedalling(Favero duo pedals)
While seated 70-75% (under 200W)
And 95% at 400W.
But standing up My easy pedalling is much more efficient:
90% under (200W) and
99% (over 400W).
Are we really wasting 50W whit easy pedalling?
Should I aim to improve My seated efficiency closer to numbers I achieve standing up?
No, there's no wasted watts (as they were never produced in the first place). These metrics are interesting... but borderline misleading. They're comparing a human to a motor. Humans are terrible motors.
@@gplama Hi again! Thanks for answering.
I see how pedal smoothness(PS) numbers compares humans to motors but I'm looking at the Torque Effectiveness(TE).
Formula TE=100x(P+ + P-)/P+ indicates that:
With easy pedalling seated:
200W=propulsion=P+, TE=75%, NEGATIVE POWER(P-) is 50W. "pushed in the opposite direction applied, to the crank over each revolution"[Favero electronics]
hard pedaling seated:
with P+ =400W, TE=95% the same Negative Power(P-) is 20 Watts.
and standing up:
200W, TE=90%, negative Power(P-) is 20 watts
400W, TE=99%, negative Power(P-) is 4 watts
Could this variation in the negative power be only effected by your pedal stroke or is there something wrong with measurement electronics or sensors?
If you have any connections to Favero electronics maybe You could ask them?
I have calibrated my pedals before each ride and they are brand new. Got them for Christmas and not even driven them outside yet due to the snow conditions. :)
I mix between flat pedals or clipless when riding indoors on the kickr. Of note - my best power metrics I've achieved this year are with flats.... So I'm not sure there is really a difference, unless I'm doing 100% sprint efforts.
The flats I use have a massive platform, the largest pedal you can buy.
The majority of the power is generated during downstroke, hence there is not much difference in that regard (if any).
@@michwoz so then, why the accepted notion that clipless pedals are a must have?
@@MrBJPitt Firm connection between foot and pedal provides more control, comfort and paradoxically is safer. Especially when sprinting, riding at high cadence, out of the saddle or on bad surface where foot may slip or completely fall of the pedal.
@@michwoz maybe you are right. It's odd as downhill riders who face all that in spades prefer flats.
The flats I use never have those issues, and the comfort is unparalleled. I can use my feet in any position I want - higher cadence I put use the front of my foot - low cadence grinding, I move to the middle of the foot. My pedals are massive though, twice the length of normal oem pedals which are rubbish.
Commuting is so much better on them, I'll never go back to clipped in for commuting.
I do use my Shimano dura ace clipless pedals for "proper" rides, feels odd riding a 6.6kg bike with 500 gram pedals otherwise 😂
@@MrBJPitt Yeah. Downhillers are probably at another extreme of the spectrum as they need huge platform and ability to put the foot on the ground in the blink of an eye. XC and CX riders are all on clipless though.
Would your numbers change with oval chainrings? Or someone with a low TE?
No idea. Oval rings aren't something I'll be on any time soon as I'm just not convinced of their benefits and they'll screw with most power meters I use/test.
I use rotor Q and my numbers are averaging 40-50%
@@gplama Isn't the low pedal smoothness an indicator enough of the benefits oval chainrings provide? I guess it's one of those things that don't need an explanation and those who do will never get it.
@@frederikroark I'm not one to make claims oval rings provide any benefit.... **and unleash the anger!!** :)
What data do you use on your screens on garmin?
3s power / cadence / HR / time / distance.
Sorry if I missed it but which pedals are you using here?
These were likely the Vector3
When there is another lama lab test? Saw on the zwift app u have tested twice..
Not everything makes it into a video. Some are pre-release. Some just don’t work and end up on the scrap heap.
i have a favero assioma duo and garmin edge 1030 but i everytime i ride watts comes out, but the pedal smoothness% and torque effectiveness is just zero :/
Update firmware on the Assioma. If that doesn’t work then contact Favero Support.
@@gplama thank you! last question how do you sync your favero assiomas? with the left power meter only sending or both sending datas? :D
DUO sends both L/R data.
I have Vector 3 pedals and I don't see pedal smoothness and torque effectivness, why?
Best contact Garmin Support
Are you using garmin or favero pedals?
Vector 3 in this video.
My pedaling smoothness and torque effectiveness are lower than yours on most rides. But I ride oval chainrings. I wonder if that's the reason...🤔
Do you often lift with your pedals? Pulling up and pushing in complete cirlces will increase the number. Biopace shouldn't drastically effect it
Maybe two more metrics for Zwift to be able to see if someone is using an ebike/Zwift doping...?
Good in theory but in practice? The location you measure power from determines if you can get this data. Only a true left-right power meter (or left only version of one) is in the position to measure this. So basically all trainers and spider based power meter can't really measure this
@@enki42ea if you're using a smart trainer and an ebike this metric would be able to detect the equal torque being applied through a full pedal stroke when the motor is being employed. Don't need L-R PM
WRT torque effectiveness, don't be too concerned about dropping below 100% because it doesn't factor gravity in to the equation. Meaning that even though you're opposing the crank as it comes up, another way of looking at this is that you're "pre-loading" the weight of your leg and that adds to your "real" effectiveness on the way down when you have gravity working for you.
I think it's a relevant data.
Shane, how do you get to these metrics to show up on your Garmin while using the Pioneer? I have the fields on my Garmin, but they stay blank using my dual sided Pioneer Power meter R9100 gen3. I have spent hours online looking to see how this is done and can not find any info other than that it was built-in with Wahoo now.
I can't recall if the Pioneer units have Pedal Smoothness and Torque Effectiveness. They do have a proprietary feature called "Monitor Mode" which is what you're referring to on the Wahoo head units.
@@gplama Hmm, I thought this video showed you using a Garmin with the Pioneer power meter and able to show the pedaling metrics.
Unless you were getting the power data from the Garmin pedals rather than the Pioneer.
Nice explaining. In my opinion those metrics have very limited usefulness in any training scenario. Same as L/R power balance. Maybe in post ride analysis, in post-injury or rehabilitation scenario... I most certainly wouldn't base any purchasing decisions on power meter having them or not. Power (and sometimes cadence) is what you need 99.9% of the time.
try pedal smoothness whilst pedalling with only one leg
The only time I'm pedalling with one leg is when I stuff up my clip-in taking off from the stop lights. :)
@@gplama you can't do a track stand / surplace?! :-p
Only on slight inclines. (Lots of practice waiting for my garage door to open enough to ride under) :)
I want every roadie out there to get on a road bike with proper MTB pedals so you all can see just how hard you can pull up on flats. There's a huge misconception when people say 'flats' they automatically assume you're talking about like the generic pedals that come on a cruiser that don't have grip.
I have power SPD pedals on my gravel bike. What’s your point? I don’t get it.
@@gplama By MTB pedals I mean flats with pins. The idea that all flat pedals are just smooth surface cruiser pedals isn't accurate. Even my road bike I have MTB flats on it and when I do a casual group ride people look at my like I'm crazy when I tell them I can pull the pedals up with flats, but you can. Granted you use more hamstrings than hip flexors, but I can completely burn out my hamstrings on MTB flats while barely using my quads.
Ahhhhh! Shin graters! I’ll have to get a pair and do some power tests for fun.
@@gplama Lol I actually have a nice gash down my left shin right now where I hit some soft sand and went down quick. The pedal flipped up and scraped half way up my shin. My wife was none too happy about it when I got home. lol.
In my opinion ones like the Crank Brothers Stamp versions are great with the concave center section, your shoes can dip down into the pedal. If you have bigger feat they have a larger size too for a bigger platform to stand on. I also use Chrome Kursk 2.0 shoes that have a solid sole (they don't sell them anymore which sucks) so I can still manage a lot of power in my sprints (on the road) and trail grinding without my shoe flexing.
At some point I'll probably get some sort of SPD or Speedplays, but I'm two years into my road bike with this setup and haven't had a real issue with it. I'd love to see your power data and thoughts on it if you ever did a video about it.
Next: oval chainrings
Sorry, nope. Not here any time soon.
I use Rotor oval chain rings and can say that since using them my knees don’t hurt and cramping is non existent..... my .02
iminim
This metric is useless for the majority of us using L (or R) only PMs. You need dual sided one, otherwise the data shown is just gibberish (it is displayed for one leg only).
GCN has shown that there is almost no difference between clic and flat pedals. Thats why I use flats and am a happy rider 😁
That's bullshit. GCN advertises a lot of bullshit.
The only real difference is more stable connection between foot and pedal. I hate when my foot slides or even drops from the pedal (which is dangerous), that's why I use SPD. Other than that I doubt there is any significant power or efficiency benefit in using clipless pedals.
@@marekzmazur2077 see my other post. For me, there is no difference in normal riding. Last 250m to the line, okay I'll take clipless.
I have extra large flats, so I don't have issues with slipping.
I'm really surprised this is not common knowledge among even weekend warrior cyclists! An efficient pedal stroke is one where you maintain power through 360 degrees. Push down with one leg and pull up with the other. This way power is generated by both legs at the same time. You lose a lot in terms of power and efficiency when not clipped in. Even during just casual riding. Flat pedal riders will argue till they're blue in the face but that's just the reality.
@@marekzmazur2077 This is simply not true. It's a myth busted long time ago. The power is produced predominantly in downstroke. Our legs evolved to push, not pull. Upstroke is mostly about properly unweighing and working in sync with pushing leg. (check this out: ua-cam.com/video/yjVJIudTK8E/v-deo.html)
If your logic on TE is correct there's no point being clipped in, because all effort spent raising the pedal is 'wasted', as it's not pushing the bike forward. I don't think that's the point of this stat.
Whheeeyy back a little. Clipped in is about a lot more than pulling up.
TE is what it is. A dyno is 100%, humans never will be.
This is all very nice, but very pointless. Pedaling a bike uses motor skills - the sequence of muscle firings which allow you to do complex movements (by complex I mean more than a single contraction). Most of your motor skill learning happened in the first year of your life as you learned how to walk. Walking is very different from pedaling. In walking you support your body weight on the ground. In cycling, if you want to be effective on the bike you need to be pushing down at 3:00 (90 degree offset angle from the crank, effectiveness = Sin(offset angle)) This explains why when you look at force vectors, the longest vectors are at the bottom - that's a person who's learned how to walk. Much of the information out there says that people can't change how they pedal, but if you look closely at the tests you'll notice that they skipped the learning process. There is a 3 step learning process to creating motor skills, which nobody is teaching, or even seems to understand. My point in all of this is that without that learning process, all that data is pointless.