Clickbait journalist logic be like: San from Ateez has a blonde streak in his hair in their music video for Answer. You know who else has a blonde streak? That's right, Anna from Frozen. The reason why Anna has it is because Elsa struck her in the head when she was young. Therefor, San's hair is a subtle cry for help because he is physically abused by his managers. It's so disgusting to me how people will hyper-analyse everything about an idol, from hair color, to the their laugh to them being shy in an English interview in a desperate attempt to find signs of suffering. It's so dehumanizing and very "white savior"
LMAO with the hair thing, but yeah when people try to over-analyse stuff it's really annoying like for example "dk from seventeen cried at a concert? you know what that means lads, it's his true feelings of hating the idol life coming through and he's just doing this because he is forced to" like shut up susan maybe he's just feeling emotional???? like normal humans do??
@@italianspaghettisauce As far as I know it is a white person who wants to speak about how another person, someone who is a person of colour, is treated badly. The problem with "white saviours" is that often, they don't actually think about the person affected, and aren't interested in their perspective, even though it would be best if the person affected would be able to speak up and if white people would give them a platform instead of trying to get in the spotlight themselves, while acting like the person of colour can't speak for themselves or understand what has happened to them. Of course you should be catious with using white saviour in any situation where a white person defends a person of colour because sometimes people don't accept the experiences of people of colour and try to dismiss them and only listen to the problem after a white person has "legitimized" it. It's sad but it can happen.
@@italianspaghettisauce it's the idea that you (assuming you are white for explanation purposes) are going to save these POC, because they can't do it for themselves, without taking into consideration what those people actually want. For example, people would europeanize native Americans, because of the white saviour complex. These native Americans wanted to keep their culture and family, but because of these white saviour complex people, they lost that because they were forced to be more European.
I definitely agree that there's a white savior complex thing going on. western writers have been some pushing some form of the "foreign culture treats people BAD" narrative for all of time to make America look better and make people pity these other nations instead of respecting them.
I really hate the whole "you just wanna date them" thing because no I don't. I am a 14 year old minor. Most of the groups I'm a fan of are fully grown adults who are around 10 years older than me. That would just be weird and really wrong.
And even if someone listens to groups because they think the members are attractive, why is that such an issue? I think it is ignorant to say that looks do not matter as a whole. If it is 'bad' for someone to enjoy KPop in part because of the looks, what does that say of the movie industry? usually in blockbuster movies, you usually do not see unattractive leads UNLESS the role calls for it. Look at movies based in high school: most of the student roles are filled with older good-looking actors that play into a glamorized fantasy of high school. They do not look like actual teenagers who are going through realistic puberty. And yet, does 'spicing up' the narrative harm the narrative core of those movies? Oftentimes, no. Seeing attractive people in our preferred fantasies actually enhances it, as looks are a deep-set anxiety for most people. It is foolish to pretend that media must be 'honorable' and show people and scenarios as they are because that is an impossible task. How do you provide pleasure for the senses if you show something mundane? Mundane is the exact opposite of fantasy; they exist as a spectrum and neither work quite as well if they are purely one or the other. Media is built upon fantasies and fantasies do not work if they are not fantastical in nature. That one indulges in these types of things is not some sort of flaw of character; it is human nature to constantly dream and wish for better things for oneself. It's maddening to me when I see people criticize the KPop fantasy because it reeks of teenage girl hatred (which, let's be honest, is the main component of Western KPop fandom). I don't want to make this into a more painful read than it already is, but there is no moral high ground when discussing media to be indulged in, and I am sick of adults demonizing things that young girls enjoy. Is there anything that young girls like that people will NOT scorn? TL:DR: all fantasies come from an indulgence of an egotistical need, there is no hierarchy of 'acceptable' fantasies, KPop hate in part stems from a hatred of young girls' hobbies. Thank you if you suffered through all of my ramblings, stay safe and know that you are loved. (Oh god, what does it say about me that I could actually turn this into a whole thesis paper...)
@@janie31281 i agree! Most of the hate is build upon the sexist idea that if girls or woman like something it immediatly is bad. Guys can fanboy over sports, but girls can't fangirl over Kpop, I don't see no difference. This is why we need feminism😂😂
I agree to that so much, but on a whole different lvl. I am not 10 years younger than most Idols, I am like 5-10 years older than most of them. I could count like 10 idols who are my age, yet I'm listening to hundreds of idols from 10-20 groups. Tho I find them all attractive, there is a difference in how I see Kim Seokjin from BTS compared to Eric from The Boyz. Both are absolute handsome men and they can both be sexy, but would I ever imagine a relationship with either of them? hell no? For Jin I'm just realistic, I'm never going to meet him, so why bother? and Eric ...? urgh, he is a child for god's sake! I was shoked when I saw Reveal tbh bc I've never seen The Boyz being sexy like that. But that didn't change my mind that most of them are still children. Boys grow up and they change, doesn't make the age difference any different tho.
@@asavakitchristl3615 haha exactly, one of my good friends is 45 years old, has 4 children and is a huge bts fangirl 😂 she squels when they're doing a sexy move, but that doesn't mean she wants to f*ck 'em 🤷🏻♀️
@@italianspaghettisauce Exactly, there's no ethical consumption under capitalism and of course every industry has an abusive side but I keep on seeing people hyperfocusing on "kpop bad" aspect and if it were because of the genuine emphaty for the well being of the idols I wouldn't care but it's obvious how it's mostly just superiority complex or a gotcha.
@@bananapuding866 Exactly. Every single video I've ever watched and ever person that's ever brought up Sulli never really cared about her, it was just about more justification to hate kpop.
banana puding unfortunately if i sent this to my friends they would most likely not watch it cause they would say it is too long of a video of something they don't care about 😔
The whole "you just want to date them" is especially frustrating for us international fans not just the assumption that we are all interested in idols in that way but the suggestion that we are so delusional that we don't understand that the idea that we'll date a celebrity from a foreign country who we in all likelyhood have a language barrier with them along with a cultural one is as improbable as winning the lottery, probably more improbable I assure you I am well aware that I could have Korean language and culture zapped into my brain and wake up in Korean tomorrow and I still wouldn't have a 1% chance with any memeber of BTS. That's not why I listen to them!
I agree. I'm not even straight and definitely not interested sexually or romatically in any idols that I like. Even the idols that I think are attractive don't really register in my brain the same as people that I know in real life that I know I could fall in love with. All in all, I find it really uncomfortable to think that others think I would like any idols like that.
exactly. and it’s also going off the assumption that all kpop fans are straight teenage girls when in fact you’ll find a huge amount of lgbt people are drawn to kpop, especially bts and other groups who openly support the community and discuss issues that resonate with or impact them. as a lesbian, i sure as hell don’t stan male idols because i’m sexually attracted to them.
I don’t even get that point, why would anyone listen to music because they like the artists face? What does the music have anything to with the appearance of the singer? They are two separate things. Why is so unbelievable that some people like music that isn’t from America?
@@Tessa_Gr It's unfortunately the go to way to dismiss the merit of somthing that demographically appeals to young women and teenage girls You don't have to acknowledge the deeper meaning of songs if you just pin the popularity on the industry perfecting relationship fantasies between fans and idols It's very a heteronormative assumption to make it mostly stems from the "stay single stay pure" critiques of the kpop industry, but honestly if you look at a lot of "girly" stuff you'll see outsiders create a narrative that the fans only like it for shallow reasons. And, ya know, if they really cared they would critique the companies for creating the fantasy not shit on fans for *maybe* falling for it.
Anti-Kpop locals: They arent perfect! They don’t want you to see their imperfections!! *kpop artist talks about struggles with mental heath, show very human sides to themselves* Anti Kpop Locals: Theyre faking it!! It’s not true!
TBF - this open talk about mental issues is a fairly new concept in kpop. It used to be this perfect, shiny thing and that memory still holds up in the west because that's how the media showed it. There's a reason they're called idols after all. Jonghyun's death kicked it off for the most part and the industry and fans finally woke up. Before that it was a silent knowledge, now it's loud and that's good. 2019 and the amount of idols in hiatus was proof of it. Those would've never happened 5 yrs ago or so. Or VERY rarely. And no company would've outright admitted it's because of mental issues.
EmmyPZcss it did happen, sooyong from ladies code and iu did speak about their eating disorders and BTS were widely known for talking about their struggles, “started from the bottom now we’re here” defined the group for a while. But it definitely became more widely accepted as you mentioned the suicides and also because the grou that committed to the “concept” succeeded, despite the odds being against them. It’s laughable how companies think they can make it in the west without giving their idols a chance to express themselves in some sort. People buy into the artist not a production company.
This comes off as some who are jealous of kpop due to how big it is getting. A good number of westerners are loving this kind of music so you have these other people (like those in the entertainment industry) putting out info against it. Asian men have always been looked down upon for various reasons and never ever in the sex symbol category over here in the western world. So to see some of the women of the west really checking out the men of the east and those groups coming over to the west is like a shake up(it was always where asian women were so gorgeous and acceptable as beautiful). If kpop continues it will rival pop music that's already established here in the west and asian men will be regarded as "hot sexy man" rival in the west too. And i mean this all getting to the point of them being household names.
If I had a dollar for everytime I saw a kpop fan talk about their idols being mistreated, I'd be rich. I hate that non-kpop fans think we don't care about what's going on in the industry and are being complicit in everything. We are literally the most outspoken people when it comes to mistreatment and the "dark side of kpop." I'll use one example of the group NCT. SM entertainment treats the nct members terribly. They overwork taeyong and mark and mistreat the non Korean members, especially the Chinese ones. I'm pretty sure every nctizen hates SM with a burning passion and we all constantly talk about how terrible they treat their artists. Just bc I like the group and the members does NOT mean I agree with how SM treats them. This is also the case with Blackpink. Nobody hates YG more than blinks, I swear. They are an awful company that treats their artists horribly, especially their female ones. Every kpop fan hates YG and are constantly talking about blackpink's mistreatment
LEGIT! I don't stan NCT and my good friend half-stans them, yet at least an hour of dang near all of our phone conversations become a rant about the dumpster fire that is SM, and in her interaction with the NCT fandom, she knows that this is common subject matter. WE HATE THE MESS THE MOST BECAUSE WE ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT THE IDOLS UNLIKE SOME PEOPLE WHO CHOOSE TO DEHUMANIZE THEM. How hard is that to process??
Me and my other NCTzen friends even made a discord server called "burning sm". We ALWAYS talk about how much we hate sm and wish they treated idols better. I dont want to hear one more anti-kpop fan say that we dont care or that we turn a blind eye to this. We care more than most people do.
Right? I was watching a video by a creator I love, Illuminaughtii, but she did this very typical "dark side of kpop" video and one of my biggest problems was how she implied that kpop fans are wrong for supporting the industry when the thing is we don't support the industry, we support the idols and the music and are one of the most outspoken fandoms when it comes to problems.
@@yeojeons9337 whatever, seokjin #1 keeps winning, all other seokjins could only dream *hair flip* ( FYI this is hilarious, i forgot I had commented this and when I saw your response I was like, wait what did I say lmao)
Yeah people always way oversimplify their deaths when each of them had unique individual circumstances that led to their choice. It's horrible that they passed away that way, but it's also horrible to twist the information about their deaths to make a point. Plus they are so much more than just a statistic of dead celebrities. Their lives deserve to be remembered too, not just their deaths.
yes, same their deaths aren't in a vacuum, there's much more context to be found if one actually bothers to treat them as human beings and not just use that event to make a point which if the needed context is taken into consideration won't even be fully valid. How they barely seem to value human lives and every person's story and put immense value in making everything a set piece to fit into their narrative is so distrubing to me to add to this, something that really upsets me and i see endlessly is the usage of Jonghyun's funeral footage and the consumption of it it's really disturbing that when you type in jonghyun into youtube there are recommendations such as "jonghyun funeral" and "jonghyun funeral bts", how was some person's funeral being available online publically and its consumption ever normalised? why do people keep using it endlessly?
What absolutely kills me is the very real issues faced by Goo Hara, Sulli and Jonghyun are brushed aside in favor of fitting them in a cookie-cutter "dark side of kpop" narrative. The western media says that the kpop industry dehumanizes idols, but in reality it's the western media doing the dehumanization. Western media looks at them and sees "kpop idol commited suicide" and takes it as a cue to write one more "dark side of kpop" thinkpiece with zero regard for the deceased person, their life and what they faced. Western media reduces their entire existence to "kpop-bad" and then with all the hypocrisy of a white savior goes on to say kpop industry is dehumanizing. They are individual humans with individual lives and problems that they have to face, not just another kpop idol interchangeable with any other.
Hypocrisy at its finest. As if those 3 couldn't have possibly had other issues in their lifes? In a way it's at least good to see that these deaths have definitely sparked some changes in the industry, but sucks to see them being used in western media like tools to fit their narrative
@A. L. Exactly. Idols are people and face societal problems and personal problems outside of their occupation, just like any other person. Goo Hara and Sulli were victims of the lowlifes present in the society they lived in. But western media's perception of kpop idols is too one dimensional and exoticized to capture that, to them it's kpop idol suffers = kpop industry bad.
It reminds me of those TV shows that talk about those who have sadly passed in very horrific ways, and they treat it as a entertainment piece instead of something that actually happened and that there’s people who are still mourning. They do not humanize it, they just want something to be entertaining, and it’s disgusting as someone who has faced something similar myself. I don’t like this. But of course everybody eats it up. And I just don’t understand the lack of empathy like how can you just involve these people’s passing, and just be like oh yeah the dark side of K-pop it’s like what the Frick is wrong with y’all. And the worst thing is that if people are already xenophobic, and against or have some kind of bias against K-pop this will lend more to their narrative of how awful and disgusting K-pop is.
Their performances are pretty close to perfect, which as a ballerina I absolutely love. But these reporters think we don't know the difference between a performance and the person behind it.
@@LynnHermione how well said, yes the problem is there, they can't see the difference between their performances and their real character. their performances are perfect but not their characters they work hard to look perfect on stage and that's the character of a real artist. they can't believe the result of hard work so they call them robots!!!
They may not be perfect, they’ve made mistakes in the past but “the scars from your mistakes makes up your constellation” and bts inspire with this message :)
What pisses me off the most is that locals will present this to kpop fans like its some unknown evidence to us and they are the ones all knowing But the thing that really gets me is how this leads to them straight up dehumanizing the idols and the fans. For other industries when you get corrupt and messed up elements there is usually sympathies spared examples like the ppl you mentioned. but for kpop idols they do this condescending pity and saying they have no free will they are robots and will just insult the idols and give them no respect?? They think they care but they just end up saying some really messed up shit about the people. The problem with this dark side of kpop narrative is not just its peoples excuse to reject kpop but it gives locals this weird ass idea to insult the supposed victims they care about and INSIST they have no free will and some adding racist comments at the same time. Edit: Also i wanna add that western celebrities can have really tough work schedules and also have mental illness problems but it wont be a reason to stop consuming what they sell or do and generally gets reported in a neutral way that doesnt attack the industry they are apart of or sometimes leaning in positivity of their devotion and hard work. and ive seen some of these celebrities even have reports of them overworking to the point of passing out on stage. But when it comes to idols they are ALL being ABUSED. What my point is western celebrities again get sympathy and they are praised for their work ethic but when kpop idols share this its suddenly extremely negative and only negative things.
Narcissism. All they want to know is how little they can work to maintain their narrative and appear the good guy. It's like BTS' song "Am I Wrong" -- you don't expect it, but when you look into it, it provides an interesting narrative as to how so many normalized and often minimized practices in society are borderline psychopathic through any logical lens. It's genuinely scary.
This is why racism does. When it happens to the Us is an exception, when it happens to the Them it's because that's how They are. Nevermind we all work within the constraints of capitalism and we try to live our best lives despite it. If you wanna be an idol, and you are in SK, you will put up with bs in the same way I put up with bs as a schoolteacher bc I FKIING LOVE IT. (not the bs. but everything else)
and it's such a hilarious irony how they would dehumanize and disrespect anyone who likes kpop or any artist from the industry because they supposedly "support the mistreatment". They'd complain about the twitter kpop stans or as I'd prefer to say, the twitter cancel culture (another case of lack of context, since it's not a phenomenon inherent to the whole kpop community), saying they spread much more hate and toxicity by defending their idols, BUT it is a good enough reason to attack any normal person who dares to express their love for kpop, saying they should die just for being part of that "toxic and obsessive" community.
While it may not be direct, or on purpose, due to society, I think the thing with K-pop in the media is that they're just xenophobic to kpop, and it's REALLY irritating. Because thats not something you can argue against unless you explain what the person is doing, and why they shouldn't. And that makes people defensive, so you can't get anywhere in a conversation.
I'm glad you're forcing yourself to watch these "documentaries" and dissecting them for us, so I don't have to watch that garbage. Thanks for taking one for the team.
Honestly the last point you made is so true and it often annoys me. A lot of people don't realize that surprise surprise, not everyone speaks English fluently and when you are in a situation where you're not exactly comfortable with the language, you are obviously going to act less comfortably and maybe a bit more uptight. But also, they are being flippin POLITe wouldn't you want that when you are interviewing someone anyway.
I'm not even Korean and this is how I, as a person with English as her second language interact with people fluent in English, because I'm unsure of my speaking skills so I try to keep as composed as I get to be.
i think i have the greatest issue with the implication that sexual harrassment is caused by mental illness, but overall i hate how Vice and many other western documentary creators / news platforms love to view k-pop and its fans through this lense. i have the feeling that this image of 'interchangeable', 'fabricated', 'robotic' kpop idols is an extension of how western white people view Asians as a whole. i was told similar things in the past about the artists i listened to, back when i was a fan of Japanese metal and then there's of course the racist image that all East Asians look the same. i hadn't even considered the difference in standards for politeness / attitudes which was mentioned in the last part of the video, but that's a good point as well.
Honestly, I'm glad that politeness is important in Korean culture, I really like that, as opposed to America where in general people don't seem as polite, because it's not seen as important. I don't really have a problem with swearing in general but being rude definitely is one and I don't want musicians I like to be unnessecarily rude to others.
@@Tessa_Gr being raised in the US, and having seen things about Korean culture, and seen videos and stuff, I do wish there was a middle ground between the two where I live.
you said it so well!!! in western media there's definitely clear xenophobia against asian music and culture in general. the websites that churn out 'dark side of kpop' articles just can't seem to tolerate the fact that people from overseas can enjoy asian music too. an example of casual racism 😪
I once had a woman tell me that Asians valued conformity to the point that they couldn't pick out ice cream flavors for themselves. She genuinely believed that she understood their culture because she knew they lacked the ability to be individualistic. She saw a group of Asian tourists buying ice cream and they asked the person at the counter what the best flavor was. And this proved her already held opinion about Asian cultures. She wasn't smart enough to take her sentiment to it's logical conclusion: They only sell one flavor of ice cream in all of Asia. She thought their goal was to be indecipherable from each other. I can't even express to you how understanding and open minded she thought she was being. She thought I was ignorant for thinking that they maybe didn't recognize bubblegum as an ice cream flavor or maybe they just wanted a recommendation so they could try something new.
@@beccangavin wow. That is some kind incredible close minded ness. Like, that's a completely normal thing to ask in my opinion, because some places are really good at certain flavors.
It disguts me that they use names of idols who have passed away as part of their agenda to prove something to us. It's disrespectful. No one has the right to assume things about the reasons someone took their own life. They are more than just names. They're people.
the point haeryun kang made at 27:32 about politeness and humanity in english interviews was so poignant i immediately had to rewatch it like five times to fully appreciate how succinct it is. i never thought about it that way but now that i do everything makes sense. variety shows are incredibly important to the pubic 'image' of an idol that western journalists or the average person just are not aware of and that can sway their perception immensely. in the west, artists' connections with the public are usually either through more formal interviews or performances on stage to a crowd. and because of a myriad of factors, those artists get to act more 'real' in those spaces. but kpop idols often are not. most idol performances are incredibly flashy and well-rehearsed, and often act as how new fans get drawn in. but where do those fans go after watching the performances? to variety shows. and on said shows those idols get to be goofy and show their 'real' selves that so many fans connect with. (i know for me run bts! is one of my favorites parts about being an army and once i was able to come down from an anxiety attack just by watching bts gayo episodes). but if you're a westerner, unless you talk to other fans, you probably wouldn't come to those variety shows without doing some digging, which many journalists just don't want to do. so where do they look instead? english interviews. and like haeryun kang points out, of course many idols are going to be 'stiff' during those interviews. not only are there different politeness standards, but if you're put in a situation where you're supposed to try to hold a formal conversation in a language you're not fluent in, of course you're going to look a little uncomfortable and not be able to say much. and the combination of perfected performances and 'stiff' english interviews can often be all a westerner needs to write idols of as 'robotic.' but if they watched just 5 minutes of a variety show -- where the idols are comfortable with the language and basically just get to hang out with their members and play games -- then their 'uber-perfect image' is shattered and replaced with a far more nuanced look at these people who are incredibly skilled performers, but still can act goofy and 'real' and 'human'. (thank you for coming to my ted talk and incredible video once again bby gang! :D)
Exactly!! I was _so glad_ to see that addressed because every time idols come into the Western space and are uncomfortable and/or stiff for perfectly logical reason, or even _rehearsed_ because that's the formal culture of their industry, I just _know_ that locals and the Western media are going to take it in the wrong context, failing to use their brains in the right place, and push their dehumanizing narrative forward. It's so exhausting. We as fans might think less about this stuff because it's just normal; we know the idols and are (even if subconsciously) aware that they're just uncomfortable in said unfamiliar space. But somehow, this level of common sense isn't exercised in the external viewer because of the _lens_ that they've chosen to see everything K-Pop through. *Sigh*
you are sooooooo correct about the variety shows. no offense to any group or artist, but i don't like watching english interviews bc of how stiff and uncomfortable they get. korean variety shows are so much more indulging and their real side really shows. and english interviews just ask about music, collabs (i will punch the next person who asks bts that question i am literally sick of it), and how they find the us. there is no depth to those questions and they don't even try to engage all the members. just the leader or english-speaking member. now there are some interviews that really try to engage everyone but nothing can compare to seeing them be natural in an environment where they can speak their own language.
Thanks, I'm so tired of people not acknowledging the many ways artists connect with fans in an intimate way. They work hard to perfect their performances to show the best side of them, but we unlike the journalists are able to discern the performance from the performer. Idols goof around on variety shows and spend an hour on vlive just talking to fans about their lives or answering questions and have apps for the specific purpose of fan interaction and general goofing around because they want us to think they're perfect? I think not
Whenever there's an issue that includes an idol, it automatically becomes a "kpop" issue when if you think about the issue at hand, it's more a societal or cultural issue that is going on. It's seen in any industry really where if one person does an illegal or morally wrong thing and is a part of niche group or industry, that negative connotation stays with that industry. People need to learn more rather than on the surface details.
the not drinking, smoking dating is so funny to me. They obv don't know ANYTHING about the industry at all. My cousin was a trainee for one of the companies and seriously. They're all smoking, drinking and dating FYI. They just don't broadcast it
Yeah and for good reason, they tend to get a lot of abuse up to and including death threats if they are no longer available as masturbation fodder for some deluded fans who are their "girl/boyfriends".
@@waynemackinnon3918 that's steorotyping, i'm a kpop fans and i never think about making them my masturbation fodder, i just love their songs and personalities
@@thezplayer3002 I was talking about certain men. If you're not like that, I wasn't talking about you, did you seriously believe I meant all or most men?
Othering of non-western art in the western sphere is such an annoying concept. I had a presentation on the post-colonial critical lense on the current art Canon in the west. It's funny how you almost have to be different in order to fit into the Western scene. You can't be just as good or better at what the west is doing. It has to be tied to some other culture, it has to be 'exotic' and different. Many African artist are rejected to present themselves in Western galleries, because they aren't 'exotic' enough, they aren't what Africa is supposed to be. When many western shows and reporters, hopped on the bts hype at the beginning, you could see the same. They didn't really treat them as individuals, more like a gimmick, a sensation, that they didn't think would stay. They thought of them as the short thrill of something 'new' and different. Only now we see more and more networks in America recognizing them as artists, that will stick around.
Right! Like only non-western art specifically has to come with some signifier labeling it as 'other'. American pop isn't called A-Pop, Canadian pop isn't called C-Pop, it just gets to be called 'Pop' because western art gets to be the most true pure form of art everything else is judged against. I do agree that there are elements of K-Pop that make it unique and very different from other pop, and it deserves it's own label. But the categorization of art by country of origin is dumb and an increadibly disrespectful way to accomplish this.
It's kind off insane that vice showed monsta x and monbebes giving testimonies about their music and their fan experiences and yet still managed to include none of it in their actual conclusion of 'the dark side'. Why include them at all if you are not going to listen to what they have to say. Also feel bad for the monbebe who talked about really personal and vulnerable issues that were eventually disregarded and talked over. That;s straight up disrespectful But, I am really glad that we have videos like these that at least show a more nuanced side of the conversation. Looking forward to part 2 :) Thanks bby gang!
I was wondering if you would make a video about this whole Jim Jones sample on AgustD mixtape. I made my research and concluded that people are just horrible and Yoongi did nothing wrong
I am still convinced that the main reason media is portraying K-pop (and world music for that matter) that way is 1)xenophobia and 2) powerplay. The western music industry has been losing influence and importance steadily and the emergence of K-pop as a global phenomenon that they are not controlling scares the beejezus out of them therefore they are doing everything they can to discredit it
There are ppl who like to know this tho. There are deaf ppl who don't listen to everybody and twist words to fit their own narratives. Ignore them. Their validation doesn't matter on the first place. But still, there are some curious people who'll like to have a sane discussion and know more about kpop. We need to target them.
@@xylypotatohead3947 the worst part is that even Seungri was never involved in that, but the media used him for clout and now even this video which is meant to criticize misinformation from the media is linking him to that shit when the police, victims and everyone involved didn't. I wish people would do a proper research before destroying a person's life.
Why does she call it ‘kpop burning sun scandal’ apart from having some idols involved, burning sun wasn’t linked to kpop at all, in fact there are far more politicians, police in that scandal. It makes it seem that burning sun is a result of kpop which is just incorrect and weird
I mean really, most of the structural problems of kpop remind me of the structural problems of Ballet companies: impossible beauty standards, overworking, power abuse scandals etc. But who cares about changing those things? people who like ballet and dancers themselves. There are so many industries like this, but outsiders will only look into it so they can shame the people who enjoy the art produced by said industries. They go with this saviour complex when they don't even know the names of the artists they are supposedly defending
Even as a Monsta X fan, I was never able to watch that full documentary as their reporting bugged me so much... seeing that footage made me realize that that footage was filmed at my monsta x concert. Which confuses me on the interviewers persistence in a negative view of the idols because... they were so comfortable and such sweethearts on stage during that
it's scary how one doesn't even have to look deep to be able to recognize how most of those kpop "critiques" tie so well into the prevalent racist narrative against asians. the same old accusations of being robot-like, soulless, passive and subservient, indistinguishable and replaceable. all too painfully familiar.
Yes! I've been a fan of kpop for 10 years, and you have no idea how many times people have found out and been like "but do you know how messed up the kpop industry actually is?" after having seen one of those "investigative" videos or articles. I'm just gonna send them the link to this video from now on. I'm so tired of hearing stuff like that.
Something I always find strange is how the people covering the "dark side of kpop" almost never mention the music itself. Is it so hard to believe that fans are there for the music, not for the pretty faces? Is it so hard to believe that, by doing a simple google of the lyrics, you'll find that many kpop songs discuss the very things that their audience is suffering through? I can't say how many times I've found comfort in one of Stray Kids' songs, which are more often than not my form of therapy. I'm sure everyone else here has also found comfort in their favorite group's songs. And it's so interesting how I can't see their faces when I listen to them on Spotify.
Exactly Skz have so many songs that have helped me personally feel seen. Like voices, insomnia, and now phobia. It is so infuriating to see people who have helped you so much be belittled constantly and reduced to their looks.
Locals pointing out all the bad things in kpop to kpop stans is like walking into someone's house for the first time and pointing out a huge hole in their roof. Honey... I live here... Trust me, I know. Edit: Wording, lol
One of the main reasons I love bts is that they are very vulnerable, raw, and honest with their emotions, struggles, etc. and they are willing to speak candidly about them so that they may be able to help other people going through the same issues. Sure I find them handsome but I wouldn’t be this invested in them and their music if the music wasn’t quality and they weren’t good and honest people. I’ve always said I don’t want them to put on a persona for us. I just want them to be themselves and do what makes them happy and that makes me happy.
I know, when I first listened to them I didn't even care about their visuals, all cared about is that I liked their music. Then I watched the variety shows,and their personalities made me love them.
I've been realizing that the "both can be true" concept is impossible for some people to digest because it doesn't tell them what to do; stan or unstan. They for real just want to be told, they don't want to make a decision on their own and "live in their truth". They don't. They for real don't. That is the conclusion I'm drawing. Anyway, enjoyed the vid very much.
There are many people who see the world or some parts of it just in whites and blacks and in these areas the grayscale doesn’t exist. Many times, when we are not interested in something and view it just as general public, as people we're known to make assumptions and not to look too deep into it. These "journalists" are building on this and that’s why they mostly generalize the facts and everything else that was said in the video. It's a sad truth.
Some people see the world as extremes - good is only good and bad is only bad. There's NEVER a middle for them. While reality is everything has nuances but it's easier to keep one narrative than really think something is not quiet like that
I was thinking the exact same thing when he said it. It just goes right over some people's heads. This is something that deserves a whole TED talk. I agree so much, and as someone who likes to see everything from both sides, the whole white/black and good/bad notion just pains me. Specially considering it's everywhere in media
I’ve always been annoyed with the clips of BTS in American interviews not because of them, but because the interviewers ask such shitty questions. Like asking them if they’re going to make an English album...why should they do that? It’s like they’re treated as alien specimens and not the amazing artists that they are. That’s why I just keep to my own K-Pop bubble because it’s so frustrating feeling like I have to explain everything to people.
Yeah! It annoyed me too. Like, why the hell would they produce an English album if they are so FRICKIN' PROUD TO BE KOREAN. A western artist fan, can even without knowing English, listen to them then why do BTS need to change their language??
Monsta X made a pretty awesome english album, other non native english speakers from all over the world do it all the time. I dont get how the question in it self is shitty? Tho i agree with you in general, just not on that example
@@denzelwenzel bcoz BTS don't HAVE to do that. The interviewers ask as if making an English album will make them more acceptable when they already ARE. They do sing in Japanese bcoz of the inter relationships between Korea and Japan. Also, they are much comfortable in Japanese than in English. If a group wants to produce an English album then it's their choice, interviewers don't have to remind them that. Interviewers are supposed to be a bridge between idols and fans but they definitely are not taking the messages to them. Repeated questions only make the interview boring and reflect how they haven't done their research properly... English albums are nothing more than a marketing strategy but BTS don't need that marketing strategy bcoz ppl already listen to them more than other idol groups, we already like their beautiful voices in Korean, why the HECK would we need an English album??? Also, BTS represent Korea when they are in America which other idol groups don't and when they are in America, they are watched all over the world, so representation is necessary. Hope you get the point now:)
@@denzelwenzel also, when other artists are promoting in the west, they are only promoting themselves, their own brand but BTS are promoting a lot more than just a brand:)
Damn the media so fixated on bringing down kpop and people are so focused on the kpop industry that they don't even realize just how DARK the American music industry is in comparison 👁️
I'm so thankful for your channel, as a leftist who still enjoys casual kpop music I've often felt judged and guilty and I hate how some of the bredtube claims to be "deeply into research, studies and facts" but then pulls out the same three points I've been hearing about since 2016. Thank you for reassuring me I can still enjoy the media while being critical about it and point out the abuse happening. It should be logical to do so but kpop fans get treated harsher because of the few bad apples who go overboard.
As a Shawol who ults Jonghyun, I just want to thank you for speaking about him in a respectful way and for providing the appropriate warnings beforehand. I know you're a Kpop fan and you made this to debunk a lot of common misconceptions about Kpop, including how the media treats his life, but a lot of Kpop fans don't seem to care about Shawol's mental well-being or respecting his memory. Not using him for shock value should be a bare minimum requirement but more often than not that's what people do. You also expressed a lot of the things the media gets wrong about him that frustrate me to no end but I feel powerless to stop. So thank you for making me feel represented.
Using people who tragically passed away as an argument and completely disregarding their life stories, struggles and emotions to brand it as "KPOP=BAD" is the most disgusting thing. And it's also shutting any potential discussion about actual problems that played big parts in those stories like sexism or approach to mental health in Korea. Let these poor people rest and stop rewriting their life.
am i the only one who went ???? when those experts and stuff said "no drinking" and then they referred to mx who do it "often"? um excuse me, this is SOUTH KOREA we're talking about? a country with such a strong after-work-drink culture? theyve never been shy in talking about drinking, even on public broadcast.
It's kinda insane how these stereotypes about Kpop got introduced to me by the actual Kpop stans themselves when I first started listening to BTS in 2015. Doesn't it show how deeply rooted these misconceptions are and how much work we have to do to clear them up? Elliot you should have staned earlier 😭
YES THAT'S IT, finally someone said it. Everything has a dark side. Anime has a dark side, I like it. Television has a dark side, many people consume it. Hell even gourmet cooking and all that chef exploitation have a dark side but we like good food. You just have to be aware and try to inform yourself to know how to support in a good way
I also hate how they act like we don’t know all this messed up stuff is happening. Like, we can be aware that the industry is god awful and screwed beyond belief and still enjoy the music. They act like it’s a big break through when we’ve known this stuff for years. Stop talking to us like we’re children, we knew this before you did.
That "shock value" section of the VICE video is what puts me off the most. They can disregard fans, ignore the facts, and contradict themselves as much as they want, but when they started using those idols' suicides to their advantage, I was so disturbed. Hara, Sulli, and Jonghyun did NOT suffer as martyrs for truth, testifying against social constructs until their last breath for these people to devalue their contributions and chalk them up to be "another tragedy of K-pop." It's so ignorant and disrespectful. I audibly gasped when you said they actually used FOOTAGE OF A FUNERAL?? in their "documentary." I haven't even seen it, but I can guess it was Jonghyun's, since his funeral was broadcasted more than the other two's. Overall, this is more corrupt of them to try to gain clout and sympathy from viewers by exploiting their suicide than the industry which supposedly caused their deaths.
Vice documentary just threw some stuff together which made no sense, drew a picture of villain and left it. So if Kpop is so wrong, why they didn’t propose a change?! How to turn industry to LIGHT?! Also I have asked them to remove my image from the documentary as I didn’t give my consent, they never replied. Speaks about professionalism. Volumes.
Yeah, I'm in my 40's and am a huge fan of Red Velvet and Mamamoo. I don't want to date them and I know they're not perfect. Honestly, more than anything I'd just want to hang out and have a beer with them and eat Korean BBQ, and do all the other things you do with a close friend/family. I think of them kind of like little sisters that entertain me and make me smile, more than anything. I'm very proud of them and I enjoy watching their journey as artists and human beings. So, yeah, when somebody tells this kind of narrative that gets the fandom completely wrong, they're getting one of the biggest pieces of the puzzle in the wrong place. After all, K-Pop wouldn't exist without the fans, so we are just as responsible for what it is - good and bad - as the artist and companies themselves. Doesn't this journalist think that's a kind of important thing to get right?
Thank you. I've unsubbed from several channels I formerly respected due to these "dark side of Kpop" videos. Sure it sounds mysterious and interesting, but is no better than tabloid "journalism." The cringe is real.
I think western media only talk about the negative side of kpop because they can get a juicy story out of it. When it comes to American artists or other western artists, they also say things like 'X is getting married' or 'X bought a new house' or whatever. But when it comes to kpop, they aren't gonna report good news, because most of the people reading the articles or watch the videos on that don't even know korean celebrities aside from bts. So they only report on bad news, because it's sensational and interests non-kpop fans too. It kinda sucks how people only care about something they don't know of when it's a shocking and juicy story.
Definitely. Unfortunately kpop is becoming mainstream so to expose it gets clicks so people can proceed to trash talk it and hate it even further. As if us fans weren't already aware of everything that goes on
I can say that as a stan of multiple SM groups as well as BTS that kpop fans are the first people to "expose" companies for their mistreatment. There are always protests and mass email campaigns happening to defend artists and fans are extremely dedicated in wanting SM to own up to their behavior. No fan ignores the shading things companies/the Korean media and public do because we want the best for the people that we have supported for years and who we know are extremely talented and good people. also who tf wants lee sooman's weird AI idols? do they think fans are that stupid
There are definitely issues with the trainee process, but I get annoyed when hear stuff like "They're trained to be the perfect specimen and to have no flaws". Like no?? How would one even accomplish that?? Also god forbid anyone ever be trained and educated in order to succeed in an industry they want a career in. The horror. I'm sure they totally learned journalism through their own means and talent and didn't pay a college a good chunk of money to educate them or help them network and land a job in the industry.
i absolutely despise it when they use jonghyun for shock value and "proof" that the kpop industry is toxic and leads to suicide. how dare they use his death and others' for their agenda
Anti- Pop music people, join with Racist people (who are against "Asian" music infiltrating into the primarily dominant "western" music control) to create this underlying prejudice that SHADES their conclusions---or even as way to "INFLUENCE". It's a struggle. I am happy for this kind of a video that Looks at how particular elements are used to make statements that may appear as "universal truth" but are often more sinister (so of course they will deny it).
ok elliot, wow.. this video was well informed and very engaging! a good balance between being serious and entertaining. definitely keeping this in mind when making some content of my own. and i love how you added in an interview with a very credible and reliable person. keep up the hard work! you need to blow up! hope more people see🔥
I think every single person that learns a new language will know how difficult and sometimes anxiety provoking it is to speak that language to a native speaker. I speak two languages and I'm learning a third. I get incredibly self conscious and anxious when I speak to native speakers. These Korean speaking artists try to speak English to an English speaking host for western shows that are broadcasted for a largely English audience. I'm pretty sure it's terrifying but they always try. I hardly ever see western media try to help them though. Only a handful will get a translator, they usually rely on the one or two fluent English members in a group which I think is so unfair.
What bothers me is that kpop seems to be seen as a single entity. If a kpop idol is involved in a scandal, its a kpop issue. If one group or company is mistreated, its all of kpop.
One of the thing that bugs the hell out of me, is that when they mention one dark aspect, they apply it to the whole of kpop. Like don't they understand that different companies are run differently? Not everyone is subjected to the same treatment. Some idols even voluntarily restrict themselves, cause they feel responsible to their group members and group. And doing something voluntarily vs contractually is a huge difference.
I don’t really get why she made the point about Korean entertainment companies being strict with copyright of kpop music in the documentary like have you really not heard how much of a problem there is with western record labels copyright striking youtubers for no reason? I actually find that Korean entertainment companies don’t copyright strike youtube videos nearly as much as western labels do 🤷♀️
That ending.."what is your definition of human?" really hit hard. This video was very well put together and your narration was easy to follow. I really loved it i feel like I've learned alot and it helped me understand alot of other things I couldn't wrap my head around. Thanks!
Thank you for trying to stand up against this! I think that the whole "kpop is trash" thing has become a meme at this point.. It doesn't matter if it's true or not. They have just found a scape goat to be at the end of the joke. And if it just had ended there I wouldn't care much. But when MSM makes a documentary like this, that is clearly targeted to people outside the community trying to "understand" kpop, it seems very one-sided and manipulative. On the other hand, who really trusts MSM in 2020? Especially the younger generations don't give a shit... Also I find it hilarious that they used BTS's successes but never really talked about how BTS has changed and is changing the rotten parts of kpop, or how their success is based on the fact that they didn't follow all those rules that the rest was following. I do agree that kpop is relatively toxic, but I came to realise that that has more to do with the standards of the Korean society and it been more conservative. However that is changing, and kpop is one of the wheels towards that. And honestly, which industry isn't toxic? Like for real, do you actually think that the entertainment industry is any better in the US? I would even argue that it's worse in some cases...
keeping in with the point he made about how non western artists are often "otherized", i think much of the negativity toward idol music (kpop) is that it is from a non westernized country. xenophobia is deeply ingrained in much of western media and the lens through which many western-raised people view the world. how is it possible that a non english speaking movement, whether it be music or dance or visual art or film, became popular? well it must be because the fans refuse to see the "dark side" of that particular industry. it must be because the 'fantasy' of the movement is all the fans tune into, and they don't wish to engage on the issues within that industry. these statements are so untrue its laughable, but the media will continue to throw these chunks of 'news' at western viewers because that is what they are expecting to read.
Why I like kpop - For the longest time, I only listened to girl groups (I’m a straight girl), so obviously I didn’t want to date them. I just liked the fact that there where these people who had like inside jokes with the fans and it felt like a weird type of friend. I’m not delusional I know they don’t know me but it’s like there’s these people who you can listen to their music or watch their vlogs and it feels like your at home.
As a Korean Canadian, I really appreciate this video because it includes what I have been saying and thinking for years in regards to k-pop. There are most definitely issues that NEED to be fixed but why are the idols getting the undeserved back-lash. I would also like to point out how the utter foolishness of expecting a foreigner that is not fluent in the language, to suddenly become outgoing. I also hate how when they can not communicate in English, somehow, people treat them as if they are a circus act. If they are too quiet, that means that they cannot talk about anything, if they are “too” outgoing, they are attention seekers. Why can’t western media understand everything and are not more “enlightened” than other countries and need to help them manage their own people. Like, white saviour complex much?
As an asexual I've always found it humorous when locals water down my love for k-pop to, "You're a hormonal teenager. You don't really care for their music! You just like them for their body. Go read your Jungkook smut fics." Trust me when I say I've tried having intercourse with past partners, but in the first couple of minutes I've always came to the same conclusion. The feeling of disgust. I'm incapable of batting an eye at a shirtless guy or a woman doing erotic dances, so it's easy to say that I have no desire to "get with" k-pop groups I look up to. I get a bit testy when people call me a liar. Here's the simple truth, I admire their hardworking nature that reflects within the choreography and music. I enjoy watching their interactions with each other in reality shows, because they make me laugh. It's safe to say that there's others who share the same sentiment as well. This misconception of the k-pop community is honestly so gross and dehumanizing. The fact that you see it so wide spread is almost baffling. On another note though, thank you for making these videos. You're doing incredible work right now that many refuse to deliver on. It's helping the community educate themselves and others on complex matters presented within the industry/fandom.
The thing that annoys me the most about these articles is the fact that they criticize and villainize kpop and then ignore the fact that the same exact issues can also be found in our music industry, which is hella hypocritical. Many young artists are abused and taken advantage of in every country, there are constant hate comments that affect the artists' mentality in every industry. Instead of villainizing kpop, these journalists should bring attention to these issues overall and how we can help these artists. Also if kpop wasn't Asian or from a foreign country it wouldn't have been treated like this
I think the BTS Carpool Karaoke stands as an excellent counterpoint to the politeness "issue" - when put into a less-formal context, one in which the members were allowed to speak for themselves in Korean rather than having RM do all the talking apart from the introductions, mainstream Western audiences got a chance to see their personalities the way fans do when we watch variety shows and V-lives. The reactions I saw online and from the friends I watched it with were overwhelmingly positive. James Cordon in particular seems to be the host who understands how the groups he covers can thrive when taken out of a more standard interview setting; his games with other groups have given them a chance to really show their personalities, too. But very little Western coverage provides a chance to the groups to actually show personality this way, so of course groups come across as stiff!
Whenever people try to accuse kpop fans of only liking kpop because the members are good-looking I always remember something I saw a Black Veil Brides fan say back when I listened to a lot of emo music: "I download the mp3's so I can listen to their faces." It's a sarcastic statement. Basically, why would I download the music to listen to if I didn't enjoy the music itself, not just the faces?
i really want to show this to my uncle, cuz he bullies me for this, but he only speaks french ;-; like last week i had a panic attack and he just said it was because im a "teenager" that it's bc of hormones and i hate it ... im tired of ppl shaming me for being an ARMY like sometimes when im in public or in school my "friends" would just make fun of me and sometimes even strangers would insult bts if they saw my phone case...
just ignore them. don't even think about them. at the end of the day they will understand they're wrong. good music is good music no one can deny it until the end one day they'll regret their blindness. smile to them and calmly say will see...
The same thing used to happen with Beatlemaniacs in their time. Just ignore them sis, Time will tell! And try interacting with more ARMYs, I mean the non toxic ones, they'll make you feel much happier to be ARMY. Yes, but in the process, don't get yourself too indulged in the online fan community and forget the real people surrounding you. One day will come when you'll no longer be a teenager and all those things that ppl around you say about BTS would seem like they didn't matter on the first place 💜
@@zzzz44400 I agree. I went to a stray kids concert just a few days ago and it felt really good to be around other people who liked the same thing I liked. Everyone there felt really relaxed and I even interacted with a few of them, and for the first time in a while, I felt super comfortable talking about kpop, so I realized that it really is good to surround yourself with good fans.
I agree with everything you said. The Othering and generalizations need to stop. However there's one thing that I think we need to keep in mind, something I didn't want to admit in my early years as a kpop fan. You talked about how the narrative of the "perfect fantasy boyfriend" is false, referring to the many instances of idols being quirky/goofy/imperfect. However, I would argue that it's entirely possible that these imperfections are just part of their public persona. What I mean is that this "dorky" side of idols is always presented as charming or endearing. They are never serious character flaws. I can't help but feel that somewhere along the line, these idols were trained to show just enough humanity to be relatable. But not enough to expose their "true selves." Now this definitely won't apply to every idol. And I'm not saying having a persona is a bad thing! After all, everyone has one, and it's up to you to decide how you will utilise your own persona (for positive or negative public influence). But I do think we need to keep in mind that pretty much everything the idols do on camera is intentional. It is part of their branding to make themselves likeable. This includes all the crackhead behaviour we so love lol. The companies know fans love that stuff, so I'm sure they encourage it. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. It's just that there is no way we could "know" our idols in a personal sense, because the relationship is inherently para social. Fans should be aware that having cameras rolling does in fact change a person's behaviour. It's inevitable. The other component to this issue is the "fantasy" element. You pointed out that for a lot of fans, it isn't relevant. They aren't in it for the sex appeal. And while that may be true for some people, that doesn't change the fact that there is rampant sexual objectification in kpop. Both female and male. These young people are made to look aesthetically pleasing, attractive, and sexy. And lots of fans have no problem turning them into objects of sexual fantasy. I don't think I need to remind you about the ridiculous amount of explicit fanfic written about idols. It becomes especially problematic when it comes to male idols, because everyone knows about the Male Gaze, but what about the Female Gaze? There are multiple groups that pander specifically to this. All the water stages, ab reveals or just plain shirtless dancing. The boys are taught to look at the camera seductively. Their sexuality becomes something to be consumed. There is this assumption that boys should just appreciate being overly sexualized, that being desired by thousands of women who are essentially strangers is a mark of success. Or that in some way it empowers them because they are proving they are confident in their body. But I would argue that it is actually just as demeaning as if a female idol was heckled for shaking her butt onstage. When you turn someone you are not in a relationship with into a sexual object, you commodify them. Turn them into a means to your own ends instead of a full human being. And kpop companies know this and exploit it. I'm not blaming the idols. And I don't necessarily blame the fans either, because most people aren't even aware that over sexualizing men is a problem too. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we need to remain very vigilant on this issue. Because although many fans rebel against objectifying their idols, it's still something that is super prevalent in stan culture. And it's something the companies push for, in music videos, live stages, reality TV shows where they get members to flirt with each other. Thus it needs to be continually questioned and reexamined if we want to be taken seriously when we say "it's not about the sex appeal."
This why I don’t watch or read those type of articles. It’s extremely generalising and dehumanising. I get frustrated. They only want to paint a certain picture and don’t want to look at it properly. I completely admit that industry has those dark sides but they completely ignore the other details.
Look, I was a preteen during BSB times. YES they are cute (and i use present tense on purpose, man are they daddy now). Yes we like seeing attractive people do stuff, that's the whole point of Hollywood. But you do not stan a group JUST bc the members are pretty. I hate that they force you into a binary of sex-negative / hormonal teen And it's utterly shameless to mention BSB in this context when Brian had his HEART SURGERY postponed twice bc MANAGEMENT WOULDN'T LET HIM STOP TOURING. He could have died. How's that for a dark Side. 3:41 I love the Gravity Falls episode because it was a loving parody, the boy band was in fact voiced by a member of Nsync, and the whole thing happened bc the creator's sister used to be a huge NSyinc fan and he arranged the whole thing so she could meet Lance.
me when i cant play beyonce's lemonade in a youtube video: given beyonce's sensitivity to exposing ANY flaws in her carreer..... where the creation of perfect imagery is the standard..... permissions to even music rights are nearly impossible.... foolery aside, another incredible video. cant wait for more, also cant wait for these to go viral. like someone else in the comments said PLEASE start clickbaiting locals so this information can finally reach them (doubt they'll want to listen though lol) i'll do my best sharing until then. take care, lots of love&support xx
The fact that I love the group I love BECAUSE they seemed more real, genuine, raw than the western artists while they are saying the opposite is almost amusing. My whole life I saw public figures and artists as some kind of demigods, perfect beings, unapproachable and far superior to me, and now supporting a group of artists who feel like family to me, normal people who could be my neighbors, my friends, my siblings it's so refreshing. It's a type of human connection they will never understand. The fact that I am able and do contribute to their achievements and success, brings a sense of accomplishment and happiness to me. I'm happy with them, I'm happy for them, I'm happy I could help. I was there for them like they were there for me when I needed it. They didn't manipulate me with fantasy bullshit, like they say, it's more of a symbiosis. They accuse the fans of superficiality while talking about the idols' appearance, but don't realize they themselves created the superficial narrative without researching deeper. This is fodder for the brain-dead people who like to absorb this kind overly dramatic, half-assed "news". What happened to journalism really? So many so called journalists today behave like hyenas rubbing their hands together waiting for you to say something they can twist around and change the meaning to fit their agendas... Maybe we are ALL delusional, maybe we are all victims of the big bad kpop devil's manipulation. But I'm not suffering, on the contrary, the depression that ate away at my heart for so many years is now something that I can deal with, and heal... with music and lovely people(artists, people behind the cameras and fans).
The media likes people who are genuine. Usually,the first thing I watch when I get interested in a group is crack videos. The media likes BTS not necessarily just for their beautiful visuals, good music, or amazing performances but because of how genuine, real, and funny they are. Genuine people are fun and enjoyable to watch, for example,Pewdiepie, the biggest UA-camr doesn't nessasarilly have the best video quality, the most handsome, or is the most professional, but he's so popular because he's genuine. He comfortable with showing his true self camera. Now I'm not saying BTS isn't popular because of their music but that how real they are is also part of what makes them popular. BTS is actually so liked because of their imperfectness, I doubt AI would ever be able to replace their genuineness.
every time I see " the dark side of kpop " video made by a non asian person makes me ask my self " are they jealous or what?" fr why they're obssesed of showing the bad side of it while the bad is only a 10%
You had me at 10 identical seokjins. But in all seriousness, thank you again for a really in depth look at the way kpop is shown, I always enjoy your videos. I particularly liked you picking up on the fact that outsiders are only seeing kpop idols in western settings (where they don't speak the language) and thus superficially judging them by a "stiff robotic exterior", and not allowing for differences in cultural politeness, which is nicely contrasted by the very human side fans actually see in variety shows and content that the kpop artists create/are involved in in SK.
Also regarding the sex appeal of the artists, while that can't be entirely dismissed, the idea that fans are so wholly invested in them for one thing is incredibly demeaning to both the fans and the artists themselves, while also ignoring the LGBT portion of the fan community.
It's funny when "western media" are like "Oh you just when date them" as if no one ever fantasized about any western artist. A lot of singers/bands use their attractiveness to draw attention. I mean, have they never *seen* a Nicki Minaj video? I like a lot of her music, but no one can deny that her butt is often in the starring role and you know what? **That's okay.** I think even like 99% of people who do fantasized about dating idols are aware that it is just a pleasant day dream and get on with their life. Yes, there are ppl who are obsessed, but they are not exclusive to idol music either.
Why does this channel not have more subscribers? I'm so upset. You need more appreciation. This is the well thought out, well researched video that the world needs to listen to.
I'm not a fan because of perfection. I'm a fan because "wow, they really did that!" I'm a fan because I'm proud these people managed to do something so difficult. It's not perfect persay, but I do think it's intricate. It's surely fascinating but it's not a fantasy. Their hard work is not a fantasy. I'm a fan because I began to feel a connection to these people individually and I'm connected to their music. The looks just kind of come along with it. I do find idols attractive sometimes but it's not something that really factors into anything. To put it in better words: they are aestethically pleasing. I am not a fan just cause I want to *do stuff* with them one day, I know there is 1000% no possibility. Sometimes the outfits can also play a part into the theme they are trying to portray because in kpop themes are conveyed through the music, the dances, and the aesthetic. I fell in love with (for example) BTS because I heard their music and thought it was good. Their aesthetic and the theme they were conveying was breathtaking and eventually I got to know these people from crack videos I'd find online. While of course still thinking these men where beautiful in their own right. Also, let me tell you crack videos are not "perfection", I came to see a chaotic mess. Sometimes it starts with looks, but it doesn't end with them. I can think "hey, this person looks cool" but if that was all I would move on and continue my day and forget about them.
the way I'm seeing a stark difference in the comment section here vs the last part. you left them no room to argue on this one. absolutely incredibly researched and discussed (I'm not sure abt the part w suicide mentioned bc I chose to skip that section since it makes me uncomfortable) but as for all the rest you left no stone unturned. amazing job.
my problem is where they (to me it sounds like ) they are saying that kpop idols ending their life is a thing in the k-pop industry.... there many other celebrity's around the world that sadly end their life because the fame and many other things you lose for being famous. Also just being depressed is a common thing around the world for any celebrity. Yes, the company does make mental health more at risk for their bad expectations during training and being an idol and then cause more problems, but they all have their own things that happen in their life that can also be a add on to their mental health. But using famous idols who was known and just saying that it because of the company who put them through this and made them to the decision that they have chosen. When we have seen that there was more than just the hard strict idol training and just being an idol. Overall, to me when people say about the training and idol life is a the main reason to such decisions (which is probably sadly true that happens for trainees but not every trainee has the same experiences) and that it doesn't happen to idols that are not k-pop idols. just because they are not k-pop idol it doesn't mean they have mental health problems and/or have ended/attempted for their own struggles in their life. Mental health and the hard S word is not exclusive to k-pop trainees and idols. wherever the idol is from in any country you can have mental health issues do to the cons of being exposed to the world and having your life watch pretty much 24/7. Thank you for listening, if anything came out something off putting or weird please tell me because tried my best to say what i felt but i could come off as something else to other. thank you bye have a nice day.
As a French person ,I can tell you that when someone speak a language you're not good at, you feel lost and look robotic since you're just trying your best to understand it I had a trip to the north of england when I wasn't as good at english and I seemed very stiff since I was scared of offending someone or not being understood and I couldn't understand them as good as they had a very strong accent my ear were not used to. Same thing when my german teacher speak , in my head it's just like: "???what???"
Thank you Elliot for taking the time out to do this video essay, it was very interesting as always. Having open conversations about the K-pop industry is so important because there are so many layers like the ones you addressed in your video(s)💜. I believe that the 'dark side' of K-pop narrative is pushed mainly by western media because the K-pop industry alone is in direct competition financially with the Western music industry, mainly in America. Most K-pop labels today are trying to break into the American market mostly and now they have some legitimate numbers/support to stand on than ever before. This is probably one of the main reasons aside from racism and ignorance that they won't allow K-pop acts to succeed there on the same level as their own artists, i.e lack of or zero radio play. A huge example is BTS and the Billboard + iheart radio scandals recently. BTS is making more money/breaking more records than a lot of the top ten artists in the US today, whilst staying true to who they are as artists and not pandering. A label like BigHit Entertainment is on its way to competing directly with big labels such as Sony and is paving the way for many other K-pop groups to also have a slice of the American market. This is a big issue for them. It's fine for them when K-pop is kept in a sterotypical box andd is seen as just a wave but when a 'K-pop' band like BTS starts to show that they can make bigger numbers in your own industry and have staying power, that's when it becomes a problem. I think it always boils down to money at the end of the day.
I already it's annoying. my friend don't like k pop she like some music but doesn't like k pop I was like why? She said Because k pop is shady industry. I was like: bruhhhhhhh😐🤦♀️ In this world there will be this kinds of thing She don't even know much at all. She low kye scared of me when we talk about BTS because I am ARMY HER OWN FRIEND WTF! ;~; she thinks I am toxic, I'm not toxic ;~;
I feel the same, but thanks to Eliott's video now I can explain myself better :) I'm 25, I've study sociology and media and I'm working in communication, I am well aware of social issues and politics, I like to understand the entire world and be pro-active in local associations. My friends always respect my opinion, but when I spoke KPOP, they all turned into ice with big eyes O.O They are more socialists and all, so Kpop is like "damn inhuman industry capitalism blablabla" and I can't open them Edit : I'm working in communication but I'm still like FUCK THE MEDIA WHATS WRONG WITH U JOURNALISM DEONTOLOGY IS DEAD??
@@slumpmanwun ;~; That's rude you don't even know me... She looked into her self then back off, because of that image. But I didn't and still love BTS and k pop
i hate how antis feel the need to act all heroic about it, pretending that we don’t know what a company is. or even going as far as acting like none of us heard about sulli dying.
My friend once said the music isn't bad but she refuses to like it because of the industry, I really want her to watch this video but I know for a fact she won't watch it if I send it to her... It's a vicious cycle
Clickbait journalist logic be like: San from Ateez has a blonde streak in his hair in their music video for Answer. You know who else has a blonde streak? That's right, Anna from Frozen. The reason why Anna has it is because Elsa struck her in the head when she was young. Therefor, San's hair is a subtle cry for help because he is physically abused by his managers.
It's so disgusting to me how people will hyper-analyse everything about an idol, from hair color, to the their laugh to them being shy in an English interview in a desperate attempt to find signs of suffering. It's so dehumanizing and very "white savior"
LMAO with the hair thing, but yeah when people try to over-analyse stuff it's really annoying like for example "dk from seventeen cried at a concert? you know what that means lads, it's his true feelings of hating the idol life coming through and he's just doing this because he is forced to" like shut up susan maybe he's just feeling emotional???? like normal humans do??
Wtf is a white savior
@@italianspaghettisauce As far as I know it is a white person who wants to speak about how another person, someone who is a person of colour, is treated badly. The problem with "white saviours" is that often, they don't actually think about the person affected, and aren't interested in their perspective, even though it would be best if the person affected would be able to speak up and if white people would give them a platform instead of trying to get in the spotlight themselves, while acting like the person of colour can't speak for themselves or understand what has happened to them.
Of course you should be catious with using white saviour in any situation where a white person defends a person of colour because sometimes people don't accept the experiences of people of colour and try to dismiss them and only listen to the problem after a white person has "legitimized" it. It's sad but it can happen.
@@italianspaghettisauce it's the idea that you (assuming you are white for explanation purposes) are going to save these POC, because they can't do it for themselves, without taking into consideration what those people actually want. For example, people would europeanize native Americans, because of the white saviour complex. These native Americans wanted to keep their culture and family, but because of these white saviour complex people, they lost that because they were forced to be more European.
I definitely agree that there's a white savior complex thing going on. western writers have been some pushing some form of the "foreign culture treats people BAD" narrative for all of time to make America look better and make people pity these other nations instead of respecting them.
I really hate the whole "you just wanna date them" thing because no I don't. I am a 14 year old minor. Most of the groups I'm a fan of are fully grown adults who are around 10 years older than me. That would just be weird and really wrong.
And even if someone listens to groups because they think the members are attractive, why is that such an issue? I think it is ignorant to say that looks do not matter as a whole. If it is 'bad' for someone to enjoy KPop in part because of the looks, what does that say of the movie industry?
usually in blockbuster movies, you usually do not see unattractive leads UNLESS the role calls for it. Look at movies based in high school: most of the student roles are filled with older good-looking actors that play into a glamorized fantasy of high school. They do not look like actual teenagers who are going through realistic puberty. And yet, does 'spicing up' the narrative harm the narrative core of those movies? Oftentimes, no. Seeing attractive people in our preferred fantasies actually enhances it, as looks are a deep-set anxiety for most people. It is foolish to pretend that media must be 'honorable' and show people and scenarios as they are because that is an impossible task. How do you provide pleasure for the senses if you show something mundane? Mundane is the exact opposite of fantasy; they exist as a spectrum and neither work quite as well if they are purely one or the other.
Media is built upon fantasies and fantasies do not work if they are not fantastical in nature. That one indulges in these types of things is not some sort of flaw of character; it is human nature to constantly dream and wish for better things for oneself.
It's maddening to me when I see people criticize the KPop fantasy because it reeks of teenage girl hatred (which, let's be honest, is the main component of Western KPop fandom). I don't want to make this into a more painful read than it already is, but there is no moral high ground when discussing media to be indulged in, and I am sick of adults demonizing things that young girls enjoy. Is there anything that young girls like that people will NOT scorn?
TL:DR: all fantasies come from an indulgence of an egotistical need, there is no hierarchy of 'acceptable' fantasies, KPop hate in part stems from a hatred of young girls' hobbies. Thank you if you suffered through all of my ramblings, stay safe and know that you are loved.
(Oh god, what does it say about me that I could actually turn this into a whole thesis paper...)
Thank you! I'm just as old as Kookie, but I just wanna be friends with them, but everybody always assumes I want to date them 😓
@@janie31281 i agree! Most of the hate is build upon the sexist idea that if girls or woman like something it immediatly is bad. Guys can fanboy over sports, but girls can't fangirl over Kpop, I don't see no difference. This is why we need feminism😂😂
I agree to that so much, but on a whole different lvl. I am not 10 years younger than most Idols, I am like 5-10 years older than most of them. I could count like 10 idols who are my age, yet I'm listening to hundreds of idols from 10-20 groups. Tho I find them all attractive, there is a difference in how I see Kim Seokjin from BTS compared to Eric from The Boyz. Both are absolute handsome men and they can both be sexy, but would I ever imagine a relationship with either of them? hell no? For Jin I'm just realistic, I'm never going to meet him, so why bother? and Eric ...? urgh, he is a child for god's sake! I was shoked when I saw Reveal tbh bc I've never seen The Boyz being sexy like that. But that didn't change my mind that most of them are still children. Boys grow up and they change, doesn't make the age difference any different tho.
@@asavakitchristl3615 haha exactly, one of my good friends is 45 years old, has 4 children and is a huge bts fangirl 😂 she squels when they're doing a sexy move, but that doesn't mean she wants to f*ck 'em 🤷🏻♀️
Sending this to my non kpop friends who think kpop is disturbing while blasting Kesha.
I just reply to every comment that's like "kPoP iS dArK ANd aBUsIvE" to a link to his first video.
@@italianspaghettisauce Exactly, there's no ethical consumption under capitalism and of course every industry has an abusive side but I keep on seeing people hyperfocusing on "kpop bad" aspect and if it were because of the genuine emphaty for the well being of the idols I wouldn't care but it's obvious how it's mostly just superiority complex or a gotcha.
@@bananapuding866 Exactly. Every single video I've ever watched and ever person that's ever brought up Sulli never really cared about her, it was just about more justification to hate kpop.
banana puding unfortunately if i sent this to my friends they would most likely not watch it cause they would say it is too long of a video of something they don't care about 😔
love that xD
The whole "you just want to date them" is especially frustrating for us international fans not just the assumption that we are all interested in idols in that way but the suggestion that we are so delusional that we don't understand that the idea that we'll date a celebrity from a foreign country who we in all likelyhood have a language barrier with them along with a cultural one is as improbable as winning the lottery, probably more improbable
I assure you I am well aware that I could have Korean language and culture zapped into my brain and wake up in Korean tomorrow and I still wouldn't have a 1% chance with any memeber of BTS. That's not why I listen to them!
I agree. I'm not even straight and definitely not interested sexually or romatically in any idols that I like. Even the idols that I think are attractive don't really register in my brain the same as people that I know in real life that I know I could fall in love with.
All in all, I find it really uncomfortable to think that others think I would like any idols like that.
exactly. and it’s also going off the assumption that all kpop fans are straight teenage girls when in fact you’ll find a huge amount of lgbt people are drawn to kpop, especially bts and other groups who openly support the community and discuss issues that resonate with or impact them. as a lesbian, i sure as hell don’t stan male idols because i’m sexually attracted to them.
I don’t even get that point, why would anyone listen to music because they like the artists face? What does the music have anything to with the appearance of the singer? They are two separate things. Why is so unbelievable that some people like music that isn’t from America?
@@Tessa_Gr
It's unfortunately the go to way to dismiss the merit of somthing that demographically appeals to young women and teenage girls
You don't have to acknowledge the deeper meaning of songs if you just pin the popularity on the industry perfecting relationship fantasies between fans and idols
It's very a heteronormative assumption to make it mostly stems from the "stay single stay pure" critiques of the kpop industry, but honestly if you look at a lot of "girly" stuff you'll see outsiders create a narrative that the fans only like it for shallow reasons. And, ya know, if they really cared they would critique the companies for creating the fantasy not shit on fans for *maybe* falling for it.
@@lanm1818
Wait till someone writes the article "Does male idol femininity help make them appeal to lesbian fans" 🙄
Anti-Kpop locals: They arent perfect! They don’t want you to see their imperfections!! *kpop artist talks about struggles with mental heath, show very human sides to themselves* Anti Kpop Locals: Theyre faking it!! It’s not true!
TBF - this open talk about mental issues is a fairly new concept in kpop. It used to be this perfect, shiny thing and that memory still holds up in the west because that's how the media showed it. There's a reason they're called idols after all. Jonghyun's death kicked it off for the most part and the industry and fans finally woke up. Before that it was a silent knowledge, now it's loud and that's good. 2019 and the amount of idols in hiatus was proof of it. Those would've never happened 5 yrs ago or so. Or VERY rarely. And no company would've outright admitted it's because of mental issues.
EmmyPZcss it did happen, sooyong from ladies code and iu did speak about their eating disorders and BTS were widely known for talking about their struggles, “started from the bottom now we’re here” defined the group for a while. But it definitely became more widely accepted as you mentioned the suicides and also because the grou that committed to the “concept” succeeded, despite the odds being against them. It’s laughable how companies think they can make it in the west without giving their idols a chance to express themselves in some sort. People buy into the artist not a production company.
EmmyPZcss Jonghyun talked openly about mental health many times prior to his death
This comes off as some who are jealous of kpop due to how big it is getting. A good number of westerners are loving this kind of music so you have these other people (like those in the entertainment industry) putting out info against it. Asian men have always been looked down upon for various reasons and never ever in the sex symbol category over here in the western world. So to see some of the women of the west really checking out the men of the east and those groups coming over to the west is like a shake up(it was always where asian women were so gorgeous and acceptable as beautiful). If kpop continues it will rival pop music that's already established here in the west and asian men will be regarded as "hot sexy man" rival in the west too. And i mean this all getting to the point of them being household names.
@KStar I never denied that!?
If I had a dollar for everytime I saw a kpop fan talk about their idols being mistreated, I'd be rich. I hate that non-kpop fans think we don't care about what's going on in the industry and are being complicit in everything. We are literally the most outspoken people when it comes to mistreatment and the "dark side of kpop." I'll use one example of the group NCT. SM entertainment treats the nct members terribly. They overwork taeyong and mark and mistreat the non Korean members, especially the Chinese ones. I'm pretty sure every nctizen hates SM with a burning passion and we all constantly talk about how terrible they treat their artists. Just bc I like the group and the members does NOT mean I agree with how SM treats them.
This is also the case with Blackpink. Nobody hates YG more than blinks, I swear. They are an awful company that treats their artists horribly, especially their female ones. Every kpop fan hates YG and are constantly talking about blackpink's mistreatment
LEGIT! I don't stan NCT and my good friend half-stans them, yet at least an hour of dang near all of our phone conversations become a rant about the dumpster fire that is SM, and in her interaction with the NCT fandom, she knows that this is common subject matter. WE HATE THE MESS THE MOST BECAUSE WE ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT THE IDOLS UNLIKE SOME PEOPLE WHO CHOOSE TO DEHUMANIZE THEM. How hard is that to process??
Me and my other NCTzen friends even made a discord server called "burning sm". We ALWAYS talk about how much we hate sm and wish they treated idols better. I dont want to hear one more anti-kpop fan say that we dont care or that we turn a blind eye to this. We care more than most people do.
And 2ne1
Right? I was watching a video by a creator I love, Illuminaughtii, but she did this very typical "dark side of kpop" video and one of my biggest problems was how she implied that kpop fans are wrong for supporting the industry when the thing is we don't support the industry, we support the idols and the music and are one of the most outspoken fandoms when it comes to problems.
Exactly, even og ELFs and VIPs don't like SM and YG!
Generalizing the whole kpop industry is what pisses me off the most
I actually like Seokjin number 6 most. No hate on the others tho, respect them too
My bias is Seokjin number 4
Seokjin number 10 is sooo underrated
Nah fam, seokjin #1 remains superior, the other 9 remain lacking
you’re such a fake fan. If you don’t love all ten equally why even call yourself a stan? 🙄🙄
@@yeojeons9337 whatever, seokjin #1 keeps winning, all other seokjins could only dream *hair flip*
( FYI this is hilarious, i forgot I had commented this and when I saw your response I was like, wait what did I say lmao)
I always get uncomfortable when Jonghyun, Sulli, and Goo Hara are only brought up for shock factor or to show a point.
Yeah people always way oversimplify their deaths when each of them had unique individual circumstances that led to their choice. It's horrible that they passed away that way, but it's also horrible to twist the information about their deaths to make a point. Plus they are so much more than just a statistic of dead celebrities. Their lives deserve to be remembered too, not just their deaths.
yes, same
their deaths aren't in a vacuum, there's much more context to be found if one actually bothers to treat them as human beings and not just use that event to make a point which if the needed context is taken into consideration won't even be fully valid. How they barely seem to value human lives and every person's story and put immense value in making everything a set piece to fit into their narrative is so distrubing to me
to add to this, something that really upsets me and i see endlessly is the usage of Jonghyun's funeral footage and the consumption of it
it's really disturbing that when you type in jonghyun into youtube there are recommendations such as "jonghyun funeral" and "jonghyun funeral bts", how was some person's funeral being available online publically and its consumption ever normalised? why do people keep using it endlessly?
It makes me uncomfortable cause they’re using someone’s struggles and full-on fucking death as a way to garner attention like-
What absolutely kills me is the very real issues faced by Goo Hara, Sulli and Jonghyun are brushed aside in favor of fitting them in a cookie-cutter "dark side of kpop" narrative. The western media says that the kpop industry dehumanizes idols, but in reality it's the western media doing the dehumanization. Western media looks at them and sees "kpop idol commited suicide" and takes it as a cue to write one more "dark side of kpop" thinkpiece with zero regard for the deceased person, their life and what they faced. Western media reduces their entire existence to "kpop-bad" and then with all the hypocrisy of a white savior goes on to say kpop industry is dehumanizing. They are individual humans with individual lives and problems that they have to face, not just another kpop idol interchangeable with any other.
Hypocrisy at its finest. As if those 3 couldn't have possibly had other issues in their lifes? In a way it's at least good to see that these deaths have definitely sparked some changes in the industry, but sucks to see them being used in western media like tools to fit their narrative
@A. L. Exactly. Idols are people and face societal problems and personal problems outside of their occupation, just like any other person. Goo Hara and Sulli were victims of the lowlifes present in the society they lived in. But western media's perception of kpop idols is too one dimensional and exoticized to capture that, to them it's kpop idol suffers = kpop industry bad.
It reminds me of those TV shows that talk about those who have sadly passed in very horrific ways, and they treat it as a entertainment piece instead of something that actually happened and that there’s people who are still mourning.
They do not humanize it, they just want something to be entertaining, and it’s disgusting as someone who has faced something similar myself. I don’t like this. But of course everybody eats it up. And I just don’t understand the lack of empathy like how can you just involve these people’s passing, and just be like oh yeah the dark side of K-pop it’s like what the Frick is wrong with y’all.
And the worst thing is that if people are already xenophobic, and against or have some kind of bias against K-pop this will lend more to their narrative of how awful and disgusting K-pop is.
I wouldn't call BTS "perfect" - they got flaws and they share them with their fans. That's why I like them
Their performances are pretty close to perfect, which as a ballerina I absolutely love. But these reporters think we don't know the difference between a performance and the person behind it.
@@LynnHermione how well said, yes the problem is there, they can't see the difference between their performances and their real character. their performances are perfect but not their characters they work hard to look perfect on stage and that's the character of a real artist. they can't believe the result of hard work so they call them robots!!!
They may not be perfect, they’ve made mistakes in the past but “the scars from your mistakes makes up your constellation” and bts inspire with this message :)
Same
Perfect doesn’t exist. But the perfect we usually refer to isn’t the robotic, down to a mm, no defiance from how something is supposed to be perfect.
What pisses me off the most is that locals will present this to kpop fans like its some unknown evidence to us and they are the ones all knowing
But the thing that really gets me is how this leads to them straight up dehumanizing the idols and the fans. For other industries when you get corrupt and messed up elements there is usually sympathies spared examples like the ppl you mentioned. but for kpop idols they do this condescending pity and saying they have no free will they are robots and will just insult the idols and give them no respect?? They think they care but they just end up saying some really messed up shit about the people. The problem with this dark side of kpop narrative is not just its peoples excuse to reject kpop but it gives locals this weird ass idea to insult the supposed victims they care about and INSIST they have no free will and some adding racist comments at the same time.
Edit: Also i wanna add that western celebrities can have really tough work schedules and also have mental illness problems but it wont be a reason to stop consuming what they sell or do and generally gets reported in a neutral way that doesnt attack the industry they are apart of or sometimes leaning in positivity of their devotion and hard work. and ive seen some of these celebrities even have reports of them overworking to the point of passing out on stage. But when it comes to idols they are ALL being ABUSED. What my point is western celebrities again get sympathy and they are praised for their work ethic but when kpop idols share this its suddenly extremely negative and only negative things.
Ikr. They don't know a dot about K-pop but hey, we should be hated because 'kpop is dark'
Narcissism. All they want to know is how little they can work to maintain their narrative and appear the good guy. It's like BTS' song "Am I Wrong" -- you don't expect it, but when you look into it, it provides an interesting narrative as to how so many normalized and often minimized practices in society are borderline psychopathic through any logical lens. It's genuinely scary.
This is why racism does. When it happens to the Us is an exception, when it happens to the Them it's because that's how They are.
Nevermind we all work within the constraints of capitalism and we try to live our best lives despite it. If you wanna be an idol, and you are in SK, you will put up with bs in the same way I put up with bs as a schoolteacher bc I FKIING LOVE IT. (not the bs. but everything else)
and it's such a hilarious irony how they would dehumanize and disrespect anyone who likes kpop or any artist from the industry because they supposedly "support the mistreatment". They'd complain about the twitter kpop stans or as I'd prefer to say, the twitter cancel culture (another case of lack of context, since it's not a phenomenon inherent to the whole kpop community), saying they spread much more hate and toxicity by defending their idols, BUT it is a good enough reason to attack any normal person who dares to express their love for kpop, saying they should die just for being part of that "toxic and obsessive" community.
While it may not be direct, or on purpose, due to society, I think the thing with K-pop in the media is that they're just xenophobic to kpop, and it's REALLY irritating. Because thats not something you can argue against unless you explain what the person is doing, and why they shouldn't. And that makes people defensive, so you can't get anywhere in a conversation.
"Whats your definition of human?"
Chills...
I'm glad you're forcing yourself to watch these "documentaries" and dissecting them for us, so I don't have to watch that garbage. Thanks for taking one for the team.
I am actually currious to see the MonstaX and Monbebe Parts. That seemed nice
@@hellionshark3197 yeah. Sad that they’re so outspoken though.
Honestly the last point you made is so true and it often annoys me. A lot of people don't realize that surprise surprise, not everyone speaks English fluently and when you are in a situation where you're not exactly comfortable with the language, you are obviously going to act less comfortably and maybe a bit more uptight. But also, they are being flippin POLITe wouldn't you want that when you are interviewing someone anyway.
I'm not even Korean and this is how I, as a person with English as her second language interact with people fluent in English, because I'm unsure of my speaking skills so I try to keep as composed as I get to be.
Yeah, and they talk like being polite is bad. Like... Has it seriously gotten to that point in western media where people can't be polite?
i think i have the greatest issue with the implication that sexual harrassment is caused by mental illness, but overall i hate how Vice and many other western documentary creators / news platforms love to view k-pop and its fans through this lense. i have the feeling that this image of 'interchangeable', 'fabricated', 'robotic' kpop idols is an extension of how western white people view Asians as a whole. i was told similar things in the past about the artists i listened to, back when i was a fan of Japanese metal and then there's of course the racist image that all East Asians look the same. i hadn't even considered the difference in standards for politeness / attitudes which was mentioned in the last part of the video, but that's a good point as well.
Honestly, I'm glad that politeness is important in Korean culture, I really like that, as opposed to America where in general people don't seem as polite, because it's not seen as important.
I don't really have a problem with swearing in general but being rude definitely is one and I don't want musicians I like to be unnessecarily rude to others.
@@Tessa_Gr being raised in the US, and having seen things about Korean culture, and seen videos and stuff, I do wish there was a middle ground between the two where I live.
you said it so well!!! in western media there's definitely clear xenophobia against asian music and culture in general. the websites that churn out 'dark side of kpop' articles just can't seem to tolerate the fact that people from overseas can enjoy asian music too. an example of casual racism 😪
I once had a woman tell me that Asians valued conformity to the point that they couldn't pick out ice cream flavors for themselves. She genuinely believed that she understood their culture because she knew they lacked the ability to be individualistic. She saw a group of Asian tourists buying ice cream and they asked the person at the counter what the best flavor was. And this proved her already held opinion about Asian cultures. She wasn't smart enough to take her sentiment to it's logical conclusion: They only sell one flavor of ice cream in all of Asia. She thought their goal was to be indecipherable from each other. I can't even express to you how understanding and open minded she thought she was being. She thought I was ignorant for thinking that they maybe didn't recognize bubblegum as an ice cream flavor or maybe they just wanted a recommendation so they could try something new.
@@beccangavin wow. That is some kind incredible close minded ness. Like, that's a completely normal thing to ask in my opinion, because some places are really good at certain flavors.
It disguts me that they use names of idols who have passed away as part of their agenda to prove something to us. It's disrespectful. No one has the right to assume things about the reasons someone took their own life. They are more than just names. They're people.
the point haeryun kang made at 27:32 about politeness and humanity in english interviews was so poignant i immediately had to rewatch it like five times to fully appreciate how succinct it is. i never thought about it that way but now that i do everything makes sense.
variety shows are incredibly important to the pubic 'image' of an idol that western journalists or the average person just are not aware of and that can sway their perception immensely.
in the west, artists' connections with the public are usually either through more formal interviews or performances on stage to a crowd. and because of a myriad of factors, those artists get to act more 'real' in those spaces. but kpop idols often are not.
most idol performances are incredibly flashy and well-rehearsed, and often act as how new fans get drawn in. but where do those fans go after watching the performances? to variety shows. and on said shows those idols get to be goofy and show their 'real' selves that so many fans connect with. (i know for me run bts! is one of my favorites parts about being an army and once i was able to come down from an anxiety attack just by watching bts gayo episodes).
but if you're a westerner, unless you talk to other fans, you probably wouldn't come to those variety shows without doing some digging, which many journalists just don't want to do. so where do they look instead? english interviews. and like haeryun kang points out, of course many idols are going to be 'stiff' during those interviews. not only are there different politeness standards, but if you're put in a situation where you're supposed to try to hold a formal conversation in a language you're not fluent in, of course you're going to look a little uncomfortable and not be able to say much.
and the combination of perfected performances and 'stiff' english interviews can often be all a westerner needs to write idols of as 'robotic.' but if they watched just 5 minutes of a variety show -- where the idols are comfortable with the language and basically just get to hang out with their members and play games -- then their 'uber-perfect image' is shattered and replaced with a far more nuanced look at these people who are incredibly skilled performers, but still can act goofy and 'real' and 'human'.
(thank you for coming to my ted talk and incredible video once again bby gang! :D)
Exactly!! I was _so glad_ to see that addressed because every time idols come into the Western space and are uncomfortable and/or stiff for perfectly logical reason, or even _rehearsed_ because that's the formal culture of their industry, I just _know_ that locals and the Western media are going to take it in the wrong context, failing to use their brains in the right place, and push their dehumanizing narrative forward. It's so exhausting.
We as fans might think less about this stuff because it's just normal; we know the idols and are (even if subconsciously) aware that they're just uncomfortable in said unfamiliar space. But somehow, this level of common sense isn't exercised in the external viewer because of the _lens_ that they've chosen to see everything K-Pop through. *Sigh*
you are sooooooo correct about the variety shows. no offense to any group or artist, but i don't like watching english interviews bc of how stiff and uncomfortable they get. korean variety shows are so much more indulging and their real side really shows. and english interviews just ask about music, collabs (i will punch the next person who asks bts that question i am literally sick of it), and how they find the us. there is no depth to those questions and they don't even try to engage all the members. just the leader or english-speaking member. now there are some interviews that really try to engage everyone but nothing can compare to seeing them be natural in an environment where they can speak their own language.
Thanks, I'm so tired of people not acknowledging the many ways artists connect with fans in an intimate way. They work hard to perfect their performances to show the best side of them, but we unlike the journalists are able to discern the performance from the performer. Idols goof around on variety shows and spend an hour on vlive just talking to fans about their lives or answering questions and have apps for the specific purpose of fan interaction and general goofing around because they want us to think they're perfect? I think not
@@platycorn5301 exactlyyy, like come on they are humans too
Whenever there's an issue that includes an idol, it automatically becomes a "kpop" issue when if you think about the issue at hand, it's more a societal or cultural issue that is going on. It's seen in any industry really where if one person does an illegal or morally wrong thing and is a part of niche group or industry, that negative connotation stays with that industry. People need to learn more rather than on the surface details.
"only now starting to expose"
Nah, they've been exposin it's just the first an American has heard it
These documentaires are so after the fact that slave contracts of the 2000s are rarely brought up.
the not drinking, smoking dating is so funny to me. They obv don't know ANYTHING about the industry at all. My cousin was a trainee for one of the companies and seriously. They're all smoking, drinking and dating FYI. They just don't broadcast it
Yeah and for good reason, they tend to get a lot of abuse up to and including death threats if they are no longer available as masturbation fodder for some deluded fans who are their "girl/boyfriends".
@@waynemackinnon3918 that's steorotyping, i'm a kpop fans and i never think about making them my masturbation fodder, i just love their songs and personalities
@@thezplayer3002 I was talking about certain men. If you're not like that, I wasn't talking about you, did you seriously believe I meant all or most men?
@@thezplayer3002 Well, the person did say 'some' not all. I mean sasaengs do exist.
Othering of non-western art in the western sphere is such an annoying concept. I had a presentation on the post-colonial critical lense on the current art Canon in the west. It's funny how you almost have to be different in order to fit into the Western scene.
You can't be just as good or better at what the west is doing. It has to be tied to some other culture, it has to be 'exotic' and different.
Many African artist are rejected to present themselves in Western galleries, because they aren't 'exotic' enough, they aren't what Africa is supposed to be.
When many western shows and reporters, hopped on the bts hype at the beginning, you could see the same. They didn't really treat them as individuals, more like a gimmick, a sensation, that they didn't think would stay. They thought of them as the short thrill of something 'new' and different. Only now we see more and more networks in America recognizing them as artists, that will stick around.
Right! Like only non-western art specifically has to come with some signifier labeling it as 'other'. American pop isn't called A-Pop, Canadian pop isn't called C-Pop, it just gets to be called 'Pop' because western art gets to be the most true pure form of art everything else is judged against. I do agree that there are elements of K-Pop that make it unique and very different from other pop, and it deserves it's own label. But the categorization of art by country of origin is dumb and an increadibly disrespectful way to accomplish this.
Whenever I see an interview where BTS are obviously comfortable, and the interview doesn't treat them as a gimmick, I sigh in relief.
@@ItsTheTinyBug Colonialism!
It's kind off insane that vice showed monsta x and monbebes giving testimonies about their music and their fan experiences and yet still managed to include none of it in their actual conclusion of 'the dark side'. Why include them at all if you are not going to listen to what they have to say. Also feel bad for the monbebe who talked about really personal and vulnerable issues that were eventually disregarded and talked over. That;s straight up disrespectful
But, I am really glad that we have videos like these that at least show a more nuanced side of the conversation. Looking forward to part 2 :) Thanks bby gang!
agust d2 is coming >:)
I was wondering if you would make a video about this whole Jim Jones sample on AgustD mixtape. I made my research and concluded that people are just horrible and Yoongi did nothing wrong
ayee! :>
I am still convinced that the main reason media is portraying K-pop (and world music for that matter) that way is 1)xenophobia and 2) powerplay. The western music industry has been losing influence and importance steadily and the emergence of K-pop as a global phenomenon that they are not controlling scares the beejezus out of them therefore they are doing everything they can to discredit it
The saddest thing is that you know who's gonna watch this? The people who already know this, not the people who need to see this.
Yep
But we can use this video when talking to those people
There are ppl who like to know this tho.
There are deaf ppl who don't listen to everybody and twist words to fit their own narratives. Ignore them. Their validation doesn't matter on the first place.
But still, there are some curious people who'll like to have a sane discussion and know more about kpop. We need to target them.
@@zmz7795 yep
You should've name it Dark Side of K-pop: the truth just to clickbate locals, they need it👏
Agree
they just don’t like seeing poc successful in the west💅🏻
@Sanaz Zaman person/people of color.
lexi.03 if they just want to be the white saviour they can just admit it but oh no they need to hate on kpop sksjsjsjsjs
PERIODT!!
People just wanna hate Kpop
Burning sun is not a kpop issue. Its not a scandal. Is a world wide trafficking crime. Ugh this documentary is so frustrating .
i know, that is incredibly insulting for the victims and outright cover of the real problems
also only seugri is an idol, the rest are actors, so you were saying bbc
@@xylypotatohead3947 the worst part is that even Seungri was never involved in that, but the media used him for clout and now even this video which is meant to criticize misinformation from the media is linking him to that shit when the police, victims and everyone involved didn't. I wish people would do a proper research before destroying a person's life.
@@xylypotatohead3947 wasn't there a highlight member?
Why does she call it ‘kpop burning sun scandal’ apart from having some idols involved, burning sun wasn’t linked to kpop at all, in fact there are far more politicians, police in that scandal. It makes it seem that burning sun is a result of kpop which is just incorrect and weird
lmao flex on the vice documentary by using kpop music in the outro
entirely unintentional but strong observation lmao
I mean really, most of the structural problems of kpop remind me of the structural problems of Ballet companies: impossible beauty standards, overworking, power abuse scandals etc. But who cares about changing those things? people who like ballet and dancers themselves. There are so many industries like this, but outsiders will only look into it so they can shame the people who enjoy the art produced by said industries. They go with this saviour complex when they don't even know the names of the artists they are supposedly defending
Even as a Monsta X fan, I was never able to watch that full documentary as their reporting bugged me so much... seeing that footage made me realize that that footage was filmed at my monsta x concert. Which confuses me on the interviewers persistence in a negative view of the idols because... they were so comfortable and such sweethearts on stage during that
"what is your definition of human" DAMN
it's scary how one doesn't even have to look deep to be able to recognize how most of those kpop "critiques" tie so well into the prevalent racist narrative against asians. the same old accusations of being robot-like, soulless, passive and subservient, indistinguishable and replaceable. all too painfully familiar.
Yes! I've been a fan of kpop for 10 years, and you have no idea how many times people have found out and been like "but do you know how messed up the kpop industry actually is?" after having seen one of those "investigative" videos or articles. I'm just gonna send them the link to this video from now on. I'm so tired of hearing stuff like that.
Something I always find strange is how the people covering the "dark side of kpop" almost never mention the music itself. Is it so hard to believe that fans are there for the music, not for the pretty faces? Is it so hard to believe that, by doing a simple google of the lyrics, you'll find that many kpop songs discuss the very things that their audience is suffering through? I can't say how many times I've found comfort in one of Stray Kids' songs, which are more often than not my form of therapy. I'm sure everyone else here has also found comfort in their favorite group's songs. And it's so interesting how I can't see their faces when I listen to them on Spotify.
Exactly Skz have so many songs that have helped me personally feel seen. Like voices, insomnia, and now phobia. It is so infuriating to see people who have helped you so much be belittled constantly and reduced to their looks.
Locals pointing out all the bad things in kpop to kpop stans is like walking into someone's house for the first time and pointing out a huge hole in their roof. Honey... I live here... Trust me, I know.
Edit: Wording, lol
I love that analogy, so accurate lmao
One of the main reasons I love bts is that they are very vulnerable, raw, and honest with their emotions, struggles, etc. and they are willing to speak candidly about them so that they may be able to help other people going through the same issues. Sure I find them handsome but I wouldn’t be this invested in them and their music if the music wasn’t quality and they weren’t good and honest people. I’ve always said I don’t want them to put on a persona for us. I just want them to be themselves and do what makes them happy and that makes me happy.
I know, when I first listened to them I didn't even care about their visuals, all cared about is that I liked their music. Then I watched the variety shows,and their personalities made me love them.
I've been realizing that the "both can be true" concept is impossible for some people to digest because it doesn't tell them what to do; stan or unstan. They for real just want to be told, they don't want to make a decision on their own and "live in their truth". They don't. They for real don't. That is the conclusion I'm drawing.
Anyway, enjoyed the vid very much.
A good conclusion at that
There are many people who see the world or some parts of it just in whites and blacks and in these areas the grayscale doesn’t exist. Many times, when we are not interested in something and view it just as general public, as people we're known to make assumptions and not to look too deep into it. These "journalists" are building on this and that’s why they mostly generalize the facts and everything else that was said in the video. It's a sad truth.
very interesting point, i would tend to agree with that. it seems like in a lot of people's brains it comes down to "so, is it good or bad?"
Some people see the world as extremes - good is only good and bad is only bad. There's NEVER a middle for them. While reality is everything has nuances but it's easier to keep one narrative than really think something is not quiet like that
I was thinking the exact same thing when he said it. It just goes right over some people's heads. This is something that deserves a whole TED talk. I agree so much, and as someone who likes to see everything from both sides, the whole white/black and good/bad notion just pains me. Specially considering it's everywhere in media
I’ve always been annoyed with the clips of BTS in American interviews not because of them, but because the interviewers ask such shitty questions. Like asking them if they’re going to make an English album...why should they do that? It’s like they’re treated as alien specimens and not the amazing artists that they are.
That’s why I just keep to my own K-Pop bubble because it’s so frustrating feeling like I have to explain everything to people.
Yeah!
It annoyed me too.
Like, why the hell would they produce an English album if they are so FRICKIN' PROUD TO BE KOREAN.
A western artist fan, can even without knowing English, listen to them then why do BTS need to change their language??
omgg..same. all the interviewers ask that same question. like..what do u think the k in kpop stand for? english? whts not clicking?
Monsta X made a pretty awesome english album, other non native english speakers from all over the world do it all the time. I dont get how the question in it self is shitty? Tho i agree with you in general, just not on that example
@@denzelwenzel bcoz BTS don't HAVE to do that. The interviewers ask as if making an English album will make them more acceptable when they already ARE. They do sing in Japanese bcoz of the inter relationships between Korea and Japan. Also, they are much comfortable in Japanese than in English.
If a group wants to produce an English album then it's their choice, interviewers don't have to remind them that.
Interviewers are supposed to be a bridge between idols and fans but they definitely are not taking the messages to them. Repeated questions only make the interview boring and reflect how they haven't done their research properly...
English albums are nothing more than a marketing strategy but BTS don't need that marketing strategy bcoz ppl already listen to them more than other idol groups, we already like their beautiful voices in Korean, why the HECK would we need an English album???
Also, BTS represent Korea when they are in America which other idol groups don't and when they are in America, they are watched all over the world, so representation is necessary.
Hope you get the point now:)
@@denzelwenzel also, when other artists are promoting in the west, they are only promoting themselves, their own brand but BTS are promoting a lot more than just a brand:)
Damn the media so fixated on bringing down kpop and people are so focused on the kpop industry that they don't even realize just how DARK the American music industry is in comparison 👁️
I'm so thankful for your channel, as a leftist who still enjoys casual kpop music I've often felt judged and guilty and I hate how some of the bredtube claims to be "deeply into research, studies and facts" but then pulls out the same three points I've been hearing about since 2016. Thank you for reassuring me I can still enjoy the media while being critical about it and point out the abuse happening. It should be logical to do so but kpop fans get treated harsher because of the few bad apples who go overboard.
As a Shawol who ults Jonghyun, I just want to thank you for speaking about him in a respectful way and for providing the appropriate warnings beforehand. I know you're a Kpop fan and you made this to debunk a lot of common misconceptions about Kpop, including how the media treats his life, but a lot of Kpop fans don't seem to care about Shawol's mental well-being or respecting his memory. Not using him for shock value should be a bare minimum requirement but more often than not that's what people do. You also expressed a lot of the things the media gets wrong about him that frustrate me to no end but I feel powerless to stop. So thank you for making me feel represented.
Using people who tragically passed away as an argument and completely disregarding their life stories, struggles and emotions to brand it as "KPOP=BAD" is the most disgusting thing. And it's also shutting any potential discussion about actual problems that played big parts in those stories like sexism or approach to mental health in Korea. Let these poor people rest and stop rewriting their life.
am i the only one who went ???? when those experts and stuff said "no drinking" and then they referred to mx who do it "often"? um excuse me, this is SOUTH KOREA we're talking about? a country with such a strong after-work-drink culture? theyve never been shy in talking about drinking, even on public broadcast.
It's kinda insane how these stereotypes about Kpop got introduced to me by the actual Kpop stans themselves when I first started listening to BTS in 2015. Doesn't it show how deeply rooted these misconceptions are and how much work we have to do to clear them up? Elliot you should have staned earlier 😭
YES THAT'S IT, finally someone said it. Everything has a dark side. Anime has a dark side, I like it. Television has a dark side, many people consume it. Hell even gourmet cooking and all that chef exploitation have a dark side but we like good food. You just have to be aware and try to inform yourself to know how to support in a good way
I also hate how they act like we don’t know all this messed up stuff is happening. Like, we can be aware that the industry is god awful and screwed beyond belief and still enjoy the music. They act like it’s a big break through when we’ve known this stuff for years. Stop talking to us like we’re children, we knew this before you did.
That "shock value" section of the VICE video is what puts me off the most. They can disregard fans, ignore the facts, and contradict themselves as much as they want, but when they started using those idols' suicides to their advantage, I was so disturbed. Hara, Sulli, and Jonghyun did NOT suffer as martyrs for truth, testifying against social constructs until their last breath for these people to devalue their contributions and chalk them up to be "another tragedy of K-pop." It's so ignorant and disrespectful. I audibly gasped when you said they actually used FOOTAGE OF A FUNERAL?? in their "documentary." I haven't even seen it, but I can guess it was Jonghyun's, since his funeral was broadcasted more than the other two's. Overall, this is more corrupt of them to try to gain clout and sympathy from viewers by exploiting their suicide than the industry which supposedly caused their deaths.
Vice documentary just threw some stuff together which made no sense, drew a picture of villain and left it. So if Kpop is so wrong, why they didn’t propose a change?! How to turn industry to LIGHT?! Also I have asked them to remove my image from the documentary as I didn’t give my consent, they never replied. Speaks about professionalism. Volumes.
Yikes, really
Professionalism who?
Yeah, I'm in my 40's and am a huge fan of Red Velvet and Mamamoo. I don't want to date them and I know they're not perfect. Honestly, more than anything I'd just want to hang out and have a beer with them and eat Korean BBQ, and do all the other things you do with a close friend/family. I think of them kind of like little sisters that entertain me and make me smile, more than anything. I'm very proud of them and I enjoy watching their journey as artists and human beings. So, yeah, when somebody tells this kind of narrative that gets the fandom completely wrong, they're getting one of the biggest pieces of the puzzle in the wrong place. After all, K-Pop wouldn't exist without the fans, so we are just as responsible for what it is - good and bad - as the artist and companies themselves. Doesn't this journalist think that's a kind of important thing to get right?
I'm a 15 year old male, now I don't get those comments like "you just want to date them"
I usually get "your gay"...
man it really sucks that people still do that... like as an insult
Thank you. I've unsubbed from several channels I formerly respected due to these "dark side of Kpop" videos. Sure it sounds mysterious and interesting, but is no better than tabloid "journalism."
The cringe is real.
Yeah
I think western media only talk about the negative side of kpop because they can get a juicy story out of it. When it comes to American artists or other western artists, they also say things like 'X is getting married' or 'X bought a new house' or whatever. But when it comes to kpop, they aren't gonna report good news, because most of the people reading the articles or watch the videos on that don't even know korean celebrities aside from bts. So they only report on bad news, because it's sensational and interests non-kpop fans too. It kinda sucks how people only care about something they don't know of when it's a shocking and juicy story.
Definitely. Unfortunately kpop is becoming mainstream so to expose it gets clicks so people can proceed to trash talk it and hate it even further. As if us fans weren't already aware of everything that goes on
Yeah! I really dislike the western media in general! :'(
I can say that as a stan of multiple SM groups as well as BTS that kpop fans are the first people to "expose" companies for their mistreatment. There are always protests and mass email campaigns happening to defend artists and fans are extremely dedicated in wanting SM to own up to their behavior. No fan ignores the shading things companies/the Korean media and public do because we want the best for the people that we have supported for years and who we know are extremely talented and good people. also who tf wants lee sooman's weird AI idols? do they think fans are that stupid
There are definitely issues with the trainee process, but I get annoyed when hear stuff like "They're trained to be the perfect specimen and to have no flaws". Like no?? How would one even accomplish that?? Also god forbid anyone ever be trained and educated in order to succeed in an industry they want a career in. The horror. I'm sure they totally learned journalism through their own means and talent and didn't pay a college a good chunk of money to educate them or help them network and land a job in the industry.
i absolutely despise it when they use jonghyun for shock value and "proof" that the kpop industry is toxic and leads to suicide. how dare they use his death and others' for their agenda
Yes its really disrespectful...
Anti- Pop music people, join with Racist people (who are against "Asian" music infiltrating into the primarily dominant "western" music control) to create this underlying prejudice that SHADES their conclusions---or even as way to "INFLUENCE". It's a struggle. I am happy for this kind of a video that Looks at how particular elements are used to make statements that may appear as "universal truth" but are often more sinister (so of course they will deny it).
ok elliot, wow.. this video was well informed and very engaging!
a good balance between being serious and entertaining. definitely keeping this in mind when making some content of my own.
and i love how you added in an interview with a very credible and reliable person.
keep up the hard work! you need to blow up! hope more people see🔥
I think every single person that learns a new language will know how difficult and sometimes anxiety provoking it is to speak that language to a native speaker. I speak two languages and I'm learning a third. I get incredibly self conscious and anxious when I speak to native speakers. These Korean speaking artists try to speak English to an English speaking host for western shows that are broadcasted for a largely English audience. I'm pretty sure it's terrifying but they always try. I hardly ever see western media try to help them though. Only a handful will get a translator, they usually rely on the one or two fluent English members in a group which I think is so unfair.
Basically, it is like we already have drawn our conclusions but to convince you, we are going to portray that we met all this people and dwell deep
"why are people so willing to believe things about kpop that are so easy to disprove?" xenophobia and the west's superiority complex
It ain't about xenophobia.
Freddie mercury was literally a gay man and the west adores him.
It's just the male chauvinists, I think.
@@zzzz44400 there were indeed people that didn't like freddie mercury for his gayness, even some that outright denounced his persian heritage
What bothers me is that kpop seems to be seen as a single entity. If a kpop idol is involved in a scandal, its a kpop issue. If one group or company is mistreated, its all of kpop.
Same can be said if one Asian messed up , all Asians become bad, we get lump up in generalisations as stereotypes
One of the thing that bugs the hell out of me, is that when they mention one dark aspect, they apply it to the whole of kpop. Like don't they understand that different companies are run differently? Not everyone is subjected to the same treatment. Some idols even voluntarily restrict themselves, cause they feel responsible to their group members and group. And doing something voluntarily vs contractually is a huge difference.
I don’t really get why she made the point about Korean entertainment companies being strict with copyright of kpop music in the documentary like have you really not heard how much of a problem there is with western record labels copyright striking youtubers for no reason? I actually find that Korean entertainment companies don’t copyright strike youtube videos nearly as much as western labels do 🤷♀️
That ending.."what is your definition of human?" really hit hard. This video was very well put together and your narration was easy to follow. I really loved it i feel like I've learned alot and it helped me understand alot of other things I couldn't wrap my head around. Thanks!
Thank you for trying to stand up against this! I think that the whole "kpop is trash" thing has become a meme at this point.. It doesn't matter if it's true or not. They have just found a scape goat to be at the end of the joke. And if it just had ended there I wouldn't care much. But when MSM makes a documentary like this, that is clearly targeted to people outside the community trying to "understand" kpop, it seems very one-sided and manipulative. On the other hand, who really trusts MSM in 2020? Especially the younger generations don't give a shit...
Also I find it hilarious that they used BTS's successes but never really talked about how BTS has changed and is changing the rotten parts of kpop, or how their success is based on the fact that they didn't follow all those rules that the rest was following.
I do agree that kpop is relatively toxic, but I came to realise that that has more to do with the standards of the Korean society and it been more conservative. However that is changing, and kpop is one of the wheels towards that. And honestly, which industry isn't toxic? Like for real, do you actually think that the entertainment industry is any better in the US? I would even argue that it's worse in some cases...
keeping in with the point he made about how non western artists are often "otherized", i think much of the negativity toward idol music (kpop) is that it is from a non westernized country. xenophobia is deeply ingrained in much of western media and the lens through which many western-raised people view the world. how is it possible that a non english speaking movement, whether it be music or dance or visual art or film, became popular? well it must be because the fans refuse to see the "dark side" of that particular industry. it must be because the 'fantasy' of the movement is all the fans tune into, and they don't wish to engage on the issues within that industry. these statements are so untrue its laughable, but the media will continue to throw these chunks of 'news' at western viewers because that is what they are expecting to read.
Why I like kpop -
For the longest time, I only listened to girl groups (I’m a straight girl), so obviously I didn’t want to date them. I just liked the fact that there where these people who had like inside jokes with the fans and it felt like a weird type of friend. I’m not delusional I know they don’t know me but it’s like there’s these people who you can listen to their music or watch their vlogs and it feels like your at home.
As a Korean Canadian, I really appreciate this video because it includes what I have been saying and thinking for years in regards to k-pop. There are most definitely issues that NEED to be fixed but why are the idols getting the undeserved back-lash. I would also like to point out how the utter foolishness of expecting a foreigner that is not fluent in the language, to suddenly become outgoing. I also hate how when they can not communicate in English, somehow, people treat them as if they are a circus act. If they are too quiet, that means that they cannot talk about anything, if they are “too” outgoing, they are attention seekers. Why can’t western media understand everything and are not more “enlightened” than other countries and need to help them manage their own people. Like, white saviour complex much?
Side note: had no idea the ‘bebe’ in monbebe was pronounced like the spanish word for baby.
monbebe is a shortening of 'mon bébé' which is french for 'my baby.' and yup, the french and spanish words for 'baby' are incredibly similar :)
jayyone wow all this time thinking it was pronounced ‘monbeeb’
I too thought it was monbeeb
For some reason I always read it as “monobe”
Hell I didn't either and I'm portuguese, it's pretty much the same word I'm shook
As an asexual I've always found it humorous when locals water down my love for k-pop to, "You're a hormonal teenager. You don't really care for their music! You just like them for their body. Go read your Jungkook smut fics." Trust me when I say I've tried having intercourse with past partners, but in the first couple of minutes I've always came to the same conclusion. The feeling of disgust. I'm incapable of batting an eye at a shirtless guy or a woman doing erotic dances, so it's easy to say that I have no desire to "get with" k-pop groups I look up to. I get a bit testy when people call me a liar. Here's the simple truth, I admire their hardworking nature that reflects within the choreography and music. I enjoy watching their interactions with each other in reality shows, because they make me laugh. It's safe to say that there's others who share the same sentiment as well. This misconception of the k-pop community is honestly so gross and dehumanizing. The fact that you see it so wide spread is almost baffling. On another note though, thank you for making these videos. You're doing incredible work right now that many refuse to deliver on. It's helping the community educate themselves and others on complex matters presented within the industry/fandom.
The thing that annoys me the most about these articles is the fact that they criticize and villainize kpop and then ignore the fact that the same exact issues can also be found in our music industry, which is hella hypocritical. Many young artists are abused and taken advantage of in every country, there are constant hate comments that affect the artists' mentality in every industry. Instead of villainizing kpop, these journalists should bring attention to these issues overall and how we can help these artists.
Also if kpop wasn't Asian or from a foreign country it wouldn't have been treated like this
I think the BTS Carpool Karaoke stands as an excellent counterpoint to the politeness "issue" - when put into a less-formal context, one in which the members were allowed to speak for themselves in Korean rather than having RM do all the talking apart from the introductions, mainstream Western audiences got a chance to see their personalities the way fans do when we watch variety shows and V-lives. The reactions I saw online and from the friends I watched it with were overwhelmingly positive. James Cordon in particular seems to be the host who understands how the groups he covers can thrive when taken out of a more standard interview setting; his games with other groups have given them a chance to really show their personalities, too. But very little Western coverage provides a chance to the groups to actually show personality this way, so of course groups come across as stiff!
Whenever people try to accuse kpop fans of only liking kpop because the members are good-looking I always remember something I saw a Black Veil Brides fan say back when I listened to a lot of emo music: "I download the mp3's so I can listen to their faces." It's a sarcastic statement. Basically, why would I download the music to listen to if I didn't enjoy the music itself, not just the faces?
this is what i'll be linking to everyone if they make a 'dark side of kpop' comment
i really want to show this to my uncle, cuz he bullies me for this, but he only speaks french ;-; like last week i had a panic attack and he just said it was because im a "teenager" that it's bc of hormones and i hate it ... im tired of ppl shaming me for being an ARMY like sometimes when im in public or in school my "friends" would just make fun of me and sometimes even strangers would insult bts if they saw my phone case...
just ignore
them. don't even think about them. at the end of the day they will understand they're wrong. good music is good music no one can deny it until the end one day they'll regret their blindness.
smile to them and calmly say will see...
The same thing used to happen with Beatlemaniacs in their time.
Just ignore them sis, Time will tell!
And try interacting with more ARMYs, I mean the non toxic ones, they'll make you feel much happier to be ARMY.
Yes, but in the process, don't get yourself too indulged in the online fan community and forget the real people surrounding you.
One day will come when you'll no longer be a teenager and all those things that ppl around you say about BTS would seem like they didn't matter on the first place 💜
@@zzzz44400 I agree. I went to a stray kids concert just a few days ago and it felt really good to be around other people who liked the same thing I liked. Everyone there felt really relaxed and I even interacted with a few of them, and for the first time in a while, I felt super comfortable talking about kpop, so I realized that it really is good to surround yourself with good fans.
I agree with everything you said. The Othering and generalizations need to stop. However there's one thing that I think we need to keep in mind, something I didn't want to admit in my early years as a kpop fan. You talked about how the narrative of the "perfect fantasy boyfriend" is false, referring to the many instances of idols being quirky/goofy/imperfect. However, I would argue that it's entirely possible that these imperfections are just part of their public persona. What I mean is that this "dorky" side of idols is always presented as charming or endearing. They are never serious character flaws. I can't help but feel that somewhere along the line, these idols were trained to show just enough humanity to be relatable. But not enough to expose their "true selves." Now this definitely won't apply to every idol. And I'm not saying having a persona is a bad thing! After all, everyone has one, and it's up to you to decide how you will utilise your own persona (for positive or negative public influence). But I do think we need to keep in mind that pretty much everything the idols do on camera is intentional. It is part of their branding to make themselves likeable. This includes all the crackhead behaviour we so love lol. The companies know fans love that stuff, so I'm sure they encourage it. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. It's just that there is no way we could "know" our idols in a personal sense, because the relationship is inherently para social. Fans should be aware that having cameras rolling does in fact change a person's behaviour. It's inevitable.
The other component to this issue is the "fantasy" element. You pointed out that for a lot of fans, it isn't relevant. They aren't in it for the sex appeal. And while that may be true for some people, that doesn't change the fact that there is rampant sexual objectification in kpop. Both female and male. These young people are made to look aesthetically pleasing, attractive, and sexy. And lots of fans have no problem turning them into objects of sexual fantasy. I don't think I need to remind you about the ridiculous amount of explicit fanfic written about idols. It becomes especially problematic when it comes to male idols, because everyone knows about the Male Gaze, but what about the Female Gaze? There are multiple groups that pander specifically to this. All the water stages, ab reveals or just plain shirtless dancing. The boys are taught to look at the camera seductively. Their sexuality becomes something to be consumed. There is this assumption that boys should just appreciate being overly sexualized, that being desired by thousands of women who are essentially strangers is a mark of success. Or that in some way it empowers them because they are proving they are confident in their body. But I would argue that it is actually just as demeaning as if a female idol was heckled for shaking her butt onstage. When you turn someone you are not in a relationship with into a sexual object, you commodify them. Turn them into a means to your own ends instead of a full human being. And kpop companies know this and exploit it. I'm not blaming the idols. And I don't necessarily blame the fans either, because most people aren't even aware that over sexualizing men is a problem too. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we need to remain very vigilant on this issue. Because although many fans rebel against objectifying their idols, it's still something that is super prevalent in stan culture. And it's something the companies push for, in music videos, live stages, reality TV shows where they get members to flirt with each other. Thus it needs to be continually questioned and reexamined if we want to be taken seriously when we say "it's not about the sex appeal."
This why I don’t watch or read those type of articles. It’s extremely generalising and dehumanising. I get frustrated. They only want to paint a certain picture and don’t want to look at it properly. I completely admit that industry has those dark sides but they completely ignore the other details.
Look, I was a preteen during BSB times. YES they are cute (and i use present tense on purpose, man are they daddy now). Yes we like seeing attractive people do stuff, that's the whole point of Hollywood. But you do not stan a group JUST bc the members are pretty. I hate that they force you into a binary of sex-negative / hormonal teen
And it's utterly shameless to mention BSB in this context when Brian had his HEART SURGERY postponed twice bc MANAGEMENT WOULDN'T LET HIM STOP TOURING. He could have died. How's that for a dark Side.
3:41 I love the Gravity Falls episode because it was a loving parody, the boy band was in fact voiced by a member of Nsync, and the whole thing happened bc the creator's sister used to be a huge NSyinc fan and he arranged the whole thing so she could meet Lance.
Love how people be like "dark side of kpop" yet chose to ignore the actual truth about their own culture like Hollywood...
me when i cant play beyonce's lemonade in a youtube video: given beyonce's sensitivity to exposing ANY flaws in her carreer..... where the creation of perfect imagery is the standard..... permissions to even music rights are nearly impossible....
foolery aside, another incredible video. cant wait for more, also cant wait for these to go viral. like someone else in the comments said PLEASE start clickbaiting locals so this information can finally reach them (doubt they'll want to listen though lol) i'll do my best sharing until then. take care, lots of love&support xx
The fact that I love the group I love BECAUSE they seemed more real, genuine, raw than the western artists while they are saying the opposite is almost amusing. My whole life I saw public figures and artists as some kind of demigods, perfect beings, unapproachable and far superior to me, and now supporting a group of artists who feel like family to me, normal people who could be my neighbors, my friends, my siblings it's so refreshing. It's a type of human connection they will never understand. The fact that I am able and do contribute to their achievements and success, brings a sense of accomplishment and happiness to me. I'm happy with them, I'm happy for them, I'm happy I could help. I was there for them like they were there for me when I needed it. They didn't manipulate me with fantasy bullshit, like they say, it's more of a symbiosis.
They accuse the fans of superficiality while talking about the idols' appearance, but don't realize they themselves created the superficial narrative without researching deeper. This is fodder for the brain-dead people who like to absorb this kind overly dramatic, half-assed "news". What happened to journalism really? So many so called journalists today behave like hyenas rubbing their hands together waiting for you to say something they can twist around and change the meaning to fit their agendas...
Maybe we are ALL delusional, maybe we are all victims of the big bad kpop devil's manipulation. But I'm not suffering, on the contrary, the depression that ate away at my heart for so many years is now something that I can deal with, and heal... with music and lovely people(artists, people behind the cameras and fans).
The media likes people who are genuine. Usually,the first thing I watch when I get interested in a group is crack videos. The media likes BTS not necessarily just for their beautiful visuals, good music, or amazing performances but because of how genuine, real, and funny they are. Genuine people are fun and enjoyable to watch, for example,Pewdiepie, the biggest UA-camr doesn't nessasarilly have the best video quality, the most handsome, or is the most professional, but he's so popular because he's genuine. He comfortable with showing his true self camera. Now I'm not saying BTS isn't popular because of their music but that how real they are is also part of what makes them popular. BTS is actually so liked because of their imperfectness, I doubt AI would ever be able to replace their genuineness.
every time I see " the dark side of kpop " video made by a non asian person makes me ask my self " are they jealous or what?" fr why they're obssesed of showing the bad side of it while the bad is only a 10%
You had me at 10 identical seokjins. But in all seriousness, thank you again for a really in depth look at the way kpop is shown, I always enjoy your videos. I particularly liked you picking up on the fact that outsiders are only seeing kpop idols in western settings (where they don't speak the language) and thus superficially judging them by a "stiff robotic exterior", and not allowing for differences in cultural politeness, which is nicely contrasted by the very human side fans actually see in variety shows and content that the kpop artists create/are involved in in SK.
Also regarding the sex appeal of the artists, while that can't be entirely dismissed, the idea that fans are so wholly invested in them for one thing is incredibly demeaning to both the fans and the artists themselves, while also ignoring the LGBT portion of the fan community.
Their always has to be a dark side of a fandom
It's funny when "western media" are like "Oh you just when date them" as if no one ever fantasized about any western artist. A lot of singers/bands use their attractiveness to draw attention. I mean, have they never *seen* a Nicki Minaj video? I like a lot of her music, but no one can deny that her butt is often in the starring role and you know what? **That's okay.**
I think even like 99% of people who do fantasized about dating idols are aware that it is just a pleasant day dream and get on with their life. Yes, there are ppl who are obsessed, but they are not exclusive to idol music either.
Why does this channel not have more subscribers? I'm so upset. You need more appreciation.
This is the well thought out, well researched video that the world needs to listen to.
I'm not a fan because of perfection. I'm a fan because "wow, they really did that!" I'm a fan because I'm proud these people managed to do something so difficult. It's not perfect persay, but I do think it's intricate. It's surely fascinating but it's not a fantasy. Their hard work is not a fantasy. I'm a fan because I began to feel a connection to these people individually and I'm connected to their music. The looks just kind of come along with it. I do find idols attractive sometimes but it's not something that really factors into anything. To put it in better words: they are aestethically pleasing. I am not a fan just cause I want to *do stuff* with them one day, I know there is 1000% no possibility. Sometimes the outfits can also play a part into the theme they are trying to portray because in kpop themes are conveyed through the music, the dances, and the aesthetic. I fell in love with (for example) BTS because I heard their music and thought it was good. Their aesthetic and the theme they were conveying was breathtaking and eventually I got to know these people from crack videos I'd find online. While of course still thinking these men where beautiful in their own right. Also, let me tell you crack videos are not "perfection", I came to see a chaotic mess. Sometimes it starts with looks, but it doesn't end with them. I can think "hey, this person looks cool" but if that was all I would move on and continue my day and forget about them.
the way I'm seeing a stark difference in the comment section here vs the last part.
you left them no room to argue on this one. absolutely incredibly researched and discussed (I'm not sure abt the part w suicide mentioned bc I chose to skip that section since it makes me uncomfortable) but as for all the rest you left no stone unturned. amazing job.
my problem is where they (to me it sounds like ) they are saying that kpop idols ending their life is a thing in the k-pop industry.... there many other celebrity's around the world that sadly end their life because the fame and many other things you lose for being famous. Also just being depressed is a common thing around the world for any celebrity. Yes, the company does make mental health more at risk for their bad expectations during training and being an idol and then cause more problems, but they all have their own things that happen in their life that can also be a add on to their mental health. But using famous idols who was known and just saying that it because of the company who put them through this and made them to the decision that they have chosen. When we have seen that there was more than just the hard strict idol training and just being an idol. Overall, to me when people say about the training and idol life is a the main reason to such decisions (which is probably sadly true that happens for trainees but not every trainee has the same experiences) and that it doesn't happen to idols that are not k-pop idols. just because they are not k-pop idol it doesn't mean they have mental health problems and/or have ended/attempted for their own struggles in their life. Mental health and the hard S word is not exclusive to k-pop trainees and idols. wherever the idol is from in any country you can have mental health issues do to the cons of being exposed to the world and having your life watch pretty much 24/7. Thank you for listening, if anything came out something off putting or weird please tell me because tried my best to say what i felt but i could come off as something else to other. thank you bye have a nice day.
As a French person ,I can tell you that when someone speak a language you're not good at, you feel lost and look robotic since you're just trying your best to understand it
I had a trip to the north of england when I wasn't as good at english and I seemed very stiff since I was scared of offending someone or not being understood and I couldn't understand them as good as they had a very strong accent my ear were not used to.
Same thing when my german teacher speak , in my head it's just like: "???what???"
i'm ready for this well-researched vid :0
Thank you Elliot for taking the time out to do this video essay, it was very interesting as always. Having open conversations about the K-pop industry is so important because there are so many layers like the ones you addressed in your video(s)💜. I believe that the 'dark side' of K-pop narrative is pushed mainly by western media because the K-pop industry alone is in direct competition financially with the Western music industry, mainly in America. Most K-pop labels today are trying to break into the American market mostly and now they have some legitimate numbers/support to stand on than ever before. This is probably one of the main reasons aside from racism and ignorance that they won't allow K-pop acts to succeed there on the same level as their own artists, i.e lack of or zero radio play. A huge example is BTS and the Billboard + iheart radio scandals recently. BTS is making more money/breaking more records than a lot of the top ten artists in the US today, whilst staying true to who they are as artists and not pandering. A label like BigHit Entertainment is on its way to competing directly with big labels such as Sony and is paving the way for many other K-pop groups to also have a slice of the American market. This is a big issue for them. It's fine for them when K-pop is kept in a sterotypical box andd is seen as just a wave but when a 'K-pop' band like BTS starts to show that they can make bigger numbers in your own industry and have staying power, that's when it becomes a problem. I think it always boils down to money at the end of the day.
I already it's annoying.
my friend don't like k pop she like some music but doesn't like k pop
I was like why?
She said
Because k pop is shady industry.
I was like: bruhhhhhhh😐🤦♀️
In this world there will be this kinds of thing
She don't even know much at all.
She low kye scared of me when we talk about BTS because I am ARMY
HER OWN FRIEND WTF! ;~; she thinks I am toxic, I'm not toxic ;~;
I feel the same, but thanks to Eliott's video now I can explain myself better :)
I'm 25, I've study sociology and media and I'm working in communication, I am well aware of social issues and politics, I like to understand the entire world and be pro-active in local associations. My friends always respect my opinion, but when I spoke KPOP, they all turned into ice with big eyes O.O They are more socialists and all, so Kpop is like "damn inhuman industry capitalism blablabla" and I can't open them
Edit : I'm working in communication but I'm still like FUCK THE MEDIA WHATS WRONG WITH U JOURNALISM DEONTOLOGY IS DEAD??
@@esilenna8716 wow :0 you are so cool! 🥺
@@slumpmanwun ugh!
@@slumpmanwun ;~;
That's rude you don't even know me...
She looked into her self
then back off, because of that image.
But I didn't and still love BTS and k pop
Direct her to documentaries about how clothes are made. THAT'S a shady industry :/
i hate how antis feel the need to act all heroic about it, pretending that we don’t know what a company is.
or even going as far as acting like none of us heard about sulli dying.
My friend once said the music isn't bad but she refuses to like it because of the industry, I really want her to watch this video but I know for a fact she won't watch it if I send it to her... It's a vicious cycle