Okay so I want to address my comment about Sam. I still stand by my analysis and would like to add more nuance, because I don’t think I explained myself clearly. The last thing that I would want to do as a black person is imply that poverty and absent fathers are exclusive to the black community. We know those stereotypes are harmful because anyone from any race or background can experience those issues. My feelings on Sam are that while those experiences on their own do not necessarily mean she’s a black caricature, the show itself intentionally tried to align both her and Rex with blackness, by relying on stereotypes. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that as the show went on and we learned more about her those details would just be randomly thrown in there. For example of course other races love hip hop and rapping, but I don’t think it’s a coincidence that in the iCarly Victorious crossover, when Robbie destroyed the speaker system his attempt at rapping was seen as inauthentic, but the “urban” puppet was seen as a good rapper. And throughout the party when he was having rap battles his only opponents were black and the ONLY person who could beat him was Sam? It just felt so clear to me that that was an intentional effort to align Rex and Sam with blackness. Now of course, loving fried chicken, having an absent father and loving hip hop are not exclusive to black people, but in this Dan Schneider Universe it is. Sam and Rex were aligned with blackness to make them seem more edgy. I understand if people still disagree and reject this idea, but I would hate for anyone’s takeaway to be that I believe black people can only be depicted in this one stereotypical way.
When I was little I always thought she was scary cos she wore leopard print and I knew they were scary animals but now that I’m older I see there’s definitely a racial element to that nickname
White trad goth here, I totally agree. Scary spice was my favorite because of her fashion and attitude, and that's why it's so important to educate ourselves on racial issues like that. Shes still truly an inspiration though
The angry black woman stereotype affects black women in real life. I will never forget when I was working at an insurance office back in 2019. I was the only black woman there and it was a very small office. I remember my manager and coworker called me to say that they will be late so I was alone there for a couple of hours. I noticed that there were no customers and I had to use the bathroom really bad. I went to the bathroom and came back and I saw a customer outside. I greeted her and she asked where my manager was. I told her that my manager stepped away but will be back. ( That’s what my manager said to tell customers when they ask .) The customer who was a white lady asked if I even worked here. I said yes. She responded back that she did not recognize me. I said I was new but she accused me of lying. She told me that I was probably a thief trying to steal the computers. I was literally sitting at my desk in my work uniform. I defended myself of course and said I’m not a thief. I have been working here for a couple of months. The customer told me that she didn’t like “ my tone “ and I’m being “ aggressive “. She kept accusing me of lying and asked to speak to my manager. I called my manager after she asked to speak to my manager but she kept going off about how I’m lying. I really don’t work here. She proceeded to say that she is calling the police. I told my manager what was going on and I handed my phone to her. Fortunately he was only a few minutes away and he showed up and helped the customer. When I tried to talk to him about the way she treated me, he simply said she was crazy. The police really did show up later that day and we had to explain what really happened. I quit shortly after that. That’s how the angry black woman stereotype can negatively affect us in real life. She falsely accused me of being a thief and when I defended myself, I was being “ aggressive “.
I'm sorry that happened to you. I just know that lady is miserable every day of her life. I thrive knowing racists wish they could tear me down. We persist. Fuck them.
@@CoffeeisnecessarynowpepperIt wasn't about eating unhealthy food. She never specified her eating disorder but you need a certain amount of calories a day. A lot of them and if you're obsessed with a low calorie intake you won't get nutrition. That's less healthy than eating unhealthy. On top of not taking in any nutrition you'll be starving.
@@Coffeeisnecessarynowpepper congrats, you’re gonna get a lot of traction for your ignorant statement, as if you knew what was happening. You won, but at what cost?
Andre was my favourite as a kid, and I very much noticed they avoided giving him a love interest and was livid. Was so happy when i thought he could have smt w jade 😔
Even as a kid I noticed that! I knew that if he wasn’t black, he would’ve gotten with Tori, because I watched *so many* teen sitcoms and picked out their patterns. I was critical as hell of these shows because I was analytical. I remember being like 9 and being upset at how I rarely saw interracial relationships being advertised, and especially not ones where a white person wasn’t involved. Or watching Jessie and realizing that shows rarely let adult black women have natural hairstyles, and usually it was only the children who seemed to. God. Justice for Andre. He was genuinely one of the best characters and he would’ve been perfect for Tori if they cared to go that route. He got her into Hollywood arts! He was her first friend there! And is a good friend! They perform together! He’s a singer, songwriter, and plays more than one instrument. It’s like they wrote him to be Tori’s endgame he’s so fitting. But then they sidelined him and he never got the same kind of attention as the other characters. It felt like even Trina got more attention. WHY.
When I was an oblivious kid (and Victorious being the first Nickelodeon show I watched) I always thought him and Tori were going to be a will they won’t they sorta story that would have ended with them together. Still pissed that they didn’t, they had amazing chemistry
@CreoTan Andre and Tori have EVERY aspect of a romantical pairing for a children tv main relationship. Why they hadnt done it? Cause he's black And people like to defend it by, "no it's just showcasing that men and women can be just friends without romance developing" funny how thats only the case when it's a poc character (or in some cases a whatever girl character that isnt as atractive or the fan favourite as the other girl option, cant rly explain)
I honestly wanted him to be with Jade then again that probably woule mess with the brocode with him. Yet I do understand Tori n him being together too, thats just options they could've went with Andre
Oooor because Jade is a main character. And you're just making up nonsense. It's extremely obvious to anyone who isn't looking for nonsense to be mad about. Jade has been there the entire time, and is even given character development to show she's acting the wrong way and shouldn't be like that. A one off character is there just to show they're wrong. But because one is blk, racists like you are mad about it...
Yesss. People r always saying sam is so real for that or sam is me. If it were a black girl they would've said she doing too much or it would've been better without her
Jocelyn, the bully… I never realized she is just… a grown ass woman? Not only is she 6ft tall, but she looks much older than everyone else. I think that part of casting was intentional, and I don’t like it very much. Also, a lot of these characters only did well because of their actors. Yvette Nicole Brown is a gift to the world! And whoever plays Andre’s grandmother put her ALL into that.
It's disgusting when you realize black children are adultified all the time, and it's rooted in racism. A black boy is seen as a threat, and a black girl is more likely to be sexualized than a white girl. Adults justify their blatant racist treatment of actual children by aging them up in their heads.
Yeah and the actress, Cynthia Dallas was around 29 at the time the episode aired so she was near 30 (which they also did the same thing with that one girl who Sam was friends with named Dana. The actress was 32 at the time the episode aired)
@@lunarblake it seems like you're pigeonholding degenerate behavior (Sam being a troubled aggressive girl with no dad) with only specifics to black people. I dunno but that seems more racist.
@@Thenoble1j Because, to you, she probably didn't look like a stereotypical black woman. It's in her behavior, not her appearance. I can without a doubt understand what Tronn is trying to convey. Especially when this exact aggressive nature is displayed with actual POC in other shows Dan has created.
Literally!! Especially during that one mascot episode where after Andre talked to Tori he INSTANTLY wrote a LOVE SONG. Like I think they would've been cute together 💔
They have a lot of set up. I just don't like how Tori's flaws are never addressed like others in the show. She's "perfect". I dunno I would've preferred andre got with Cat or Jade. Or even just had a consistent girlfriend not in the main cast.
As a kid, I was confused by why other characters were expected to be scared of Helen. I can’t help but think some of the writers wanted to expand upon her character to make her the Helen we admired, while other writers wanted to keep her boxed into the stereotypes.
I agree, she was my favorite character from Drake and Josh. My brother and i to this day still bring her up. And when she showed up I audibly cheered. And I was so disappointed with how everyone was scared of her even back than I was like???
Probably because her character was another example of the "neurodivergent people = dangerous and scary" stereotype that is also persistent throughout Schneider's works
I've always hated how kid's tv was so against interracial couples and any black character might have a singular date or crush on a white character they always ultimately ended up with a black partner
and now this stereotype is so heavily put only on black women, theres 15 movies a year coming out about a black man and a white woman or any other race of woman but rarely ever a black woman dating outside of their race
THANK YOU I THOUGHT I WAS THE ONLY ONE. Especially as a guy who finds interracial relationships as a breath of fresh air from popular media, and the possibilities like the mixing and integration of different cultures. IT’S NOT ALWAY THE SAMESIES EVERY 2010’s SHOW I CAN THINK OF!
The “angry black women” part is so true also note that literally in everything where black woman are the side characters they usually never cry or show vulnerability. only being “strong, sassy, funny (stereotypically) or angry.
@Nakia11798 That only applies if their character is only based around trauma and suffering, cause that's also a harmful black trope. There's a difference between that and a fully rounded character with vulnerabilities and other traits.
Helen’s character could have been portrayed as a powerful authority figure but instead, like you said, the characters’ REACTIONS to her set up the stereotype. What a shame
Definitely agree it’s a shame, because after seeing Yvette in Community, she’s a great actress and it’s fun watching her play Shirley (who is pretty much the complete opposite of Helen).
I was always disturbed by the way they portrayed and reacted to Andre’s grandmother as a child. I felt bad for Andre-I was like damn this poor guy has so much on his plate and his friends just joke ab it or brush it all off. I wanted everyone to be nicer to Andre AND his grandma 😢
@@pbsfundingaddict790 yeah but his grandmother was sick and had a disease that made her that way-but definitely fucked of his parents for abandoning him to make him care for his grandmother
I remember as a kid I never understood why everyone was so scared of Helen. I just thought she was a funny and charming. As a kid, I thought the joke was that she WASN’T scary, but everyone around her thought she was
@@zaire-aniyarobinson2928Cat is always so uncomfortable around Robbie. He’s such a creep to her and the pirate joke makes it seem like it’s pretty likely he SAed her. So I *really* don’t agree with u on that one
@@zaire-aniyarobinson2928Considering he's dan Schneiders self insert I agree. But I feel like andre would've been able to be silly with cat while also helping her be responsible.
You can pick up on a lot of patterns with various stereotypes across all of these shows: -Black people are portrayed as angry and physically imposing -Asians are portrayed as unpopular nerds -Homeless people (almost exclusively referred to as hobos) are portrayed as scary and almost subhuman -Characters' mental disorders (Sam and Coco's overeating, Cat's bipolarity, Andre’s grandma’s schizophrenia, etc.) are played purely for laughs -Transphobic jokes (Jade calls Robbie "sort of a him," Beck uses air quotes when referring to his "Uncle Barbara," Spencer gets called a "man lady" and chased by security guards simply for crossdressing) -Robbie, who is Jewish, is portrayed as a cheapskate
I won't consider the "sort of a him" joke to be transphobic per se She's literally just calling Robbie a half-man, is more like a sexist insult as it is common for us men to get called as "not manly enough" just because we don't show strong traits of masculinity Is not transphobic, is just sexist. Still bad but in a different cathegory
@@swllzllck133 did i say it wasn't wrong? Also if it hadn't been considered good at some point dan schneider wouldn't have risen to his ranks and produced many similar shows with similar jokes and punchlines. Guess what's wrong is the american tv audience then
@amazingunreleasedalbumsI don't know about the cutting Jade out thing. She has some Regina George vibes where she is both feared and loved. Well, before they started making her scream all the time.
@@rizkiramadhan9266”24 comments on this channel” get a fvcking hobby dude my god. No one cares about your piss poor attempt rage bait, you’ve been in every reply section I’ve opened so far
I mean, considering that according to the black cast from All That in the Quiet On Set documentary, they were overlooked while Dan was focused on little white girls feet. He even complained about a black girl’s birthday cake being too big, so looking back at these shows through your video, these depictions of black characters through his shows aren’t really surprising at all.
Correct! From the mouth of the woman herself; it isn’t about her skin color. She said it’s because she would demand to see interviewers questions, to protect the group, and exuding confidence always. Anyone, especially a woman, being that confrontational will get you called more than scary. She likes scary and identifies with it. Everyone here just wants to be offended so they can feel something in this modern age.
if i remember correctly, i heard that while Dan did co-create Henry Danger, he wasn't on set a lot, which may be why Charlotte seems like a deviation from his use of the stereotype.
Charlotte was and did follow the stereotype in the first season, but since it was so far from Riele (Charlotte’s actress), they decided to switch her characteristics
Bro the one girlfriend they gave Andre that was mean asf was darkskin but the others were lightskin 😭 all the stereotypes and micro aggressions were so obvious. So sad
Ehem ...macro aggressions -micro too don't get me wrong but that is loud and wrong thus macro..and the ppl that dont get it just don't get it like the ignorant little idiotic things they are.
Ok so as someone who had the lady who play Andres cousin as a substitute teacher tell us her experience, it’s very sad how black wonen are portrayed in media honestly and it does carry over into every day life and how people react to black women in public.
@@ariannapommells basically we thought she was mean like the show but she was saying that they were playing into stereotypes because she was so nice as a sub and she was telling us how hard it was so find gigs
There was also that episode where Carly mocked the city name Yakima and the city got the name from the Yakama Tribe, who are Indigenous to what is known as Washington State
It’s funny how Helen on the show favored Drake and was always rude to Josh, but apparently behind the scenes Yvette Nicole Brown was always looking out for him and they’re still on good terms
I was SO hung up on this as a kid! I couldn't understand how they thought we wouldn't notice. We weren't babies. The shows target audience was preteens?? Would it have been that hard/expensive to just edit the script for someone to just say the new actress is subbing for Helen whilst she was on a trip or something??
I think the issue there was that they swapped out an entire character, a frequently appearing one at that, and expected us to not notice. It has nothing to do with Helen being black. Although, Fresh Prince apparently got away with doing the same thing for Aunt Viv, and for much longer.
Was she exceptionally angry and irritable? Was she basically a black Karen with a much more rude character and/or mentally unstable? @@Missmagazinebura
@@juandiegotorres9632 she just don’t tell a woman what to do lol so possibly yeah and when she tells Henry and captain man what to do they don’t listen to her
The one that always wanted to beat people or flush them in the toilet? I remember they changed actresses at one point, like okay just sub in another Black girl to do the same schtick
I think this was a wonderful conversation piece. Hollywood has a very obvious history of stereotyping black people or using black people as the "butt of the joke" and I am not surprised that these continued to linger in children's television shows. I am happy that this is finally being brought to light. Dan Schneider knew exactly he was doing with mocking black sterotypes imo.
I never made the Helen connection. I always thought people were scared of her cuz she was their boss in some way. But what you said made more sense honestly.
It made WAY more sense to me as I got older. She was loud, mean (mostly to Josh but still), sassy, and stayed angry, and the fact that she was the only black person on the show was icing on the racist cake.
@@b.7375Mindy sucked too, her constantly putting Josh down by making him feel inferior and I never forgot her attempt to frame Drake for putting the English teacher gave her a low grade so she became vindictive by nearly getting Drake kicked from school because she couldn't handle a B average. I hate that Josh dated an mentally abusive girl narcissist like that.
I remember being a kid and furrowing my brow upon learning the one black Spice Girl was called “Scary”. I think at the time, I vaguely knew about the Aggressive Black Woman stereotype but not in full, but even then just the fact everyone else had these nice names but then you got to the one that looked the most like me and she’s “scary”. But hey, I assumed all this time they chose the names themselves. Learning otherwise makes it so much worse ❤
@@ihartm6scra since when this is an oppression contest? Minimizing other people's pain won't make yours bigger. Matter fact, it will make yours smaller by only validating one specific amount of pain that literally no human can live to reach
I suspect the reason they changed Rex puppet after the _Victorious_ pilot was because somebody (either a writer or a producer) considered it would be "unaceptable" for a kids show to have a white ventriloquist making a black puppet talk in a stereotypically black manner. _Arrested Developtment_ had a main character do exactly that and the reaction of the only character with some semblance of decency was "this is inappropiate and in poor taste, please stop", and people didn't complain (as far as I know) because it was a comedy for adults, children TV shows have less leeway for that sort of thing
The joke on Arrested Development was that it was racist and everyone knew it, except for the puppeteer. But there's no self-awareness in the Schneider-verse
Wow, was charlotte really the only black girl/woman who wasn’t written with this stereotype?? Disappointing looking back as an adult. Wonderful video, and a necessary discussion to have.
For anyone who is thinking “it’s fiction, who is it hurting?” I does hurt countless black people/women. I grew up very conflicted because I loved these shows but felt gaslit and boxed in. Many of the thoughts in my head where “is that how we’re depicted? Do people see me like that?” This was as a kid, little alone as an adult. No, I don’t think this video was a reach. Even in the recent ‘Quiet on Set’ docuseries a topic that was talked about was the unfair treatment of people of color as well as bother mothers sticking up for their kids and being called ‘Angry Black Women’ so yeah, this stuff both happens on the show, bts of the show, and in day to day life.
@robertjohnson2916 that's because of racial bias. Black women will never escape the stereotype because it effects them. If they get normal in a ration situation where they should be then it's still a play into the stereotype white women don't have the stereotype all white people stereotypes are lack of positive poc stereotypes. Good cooking rythm ect which makes them just everage. The default of a person. Check your bias dude. Ofc bw fit into that stereotype if it's all they're made to be.
@@robertjohnson2916 still doesn't change the fact that even if they don't they'll still be perceived that way if they show any emotion. There's no winning
I completely recognize Jocelyn fell into the angry black woman stereotype, but I will say when I was younger I wanted to be Sam when Jocelyn pushed her against the locker
I would really like to see a version of this video focusing on Disney Channel characters. There's a black girl in Austin and Ally who is given similar treatment to Andre's girlfriends. I think her only personality trait is that her breath smelled bad 😒. I feel that most black characters in Disney more fit the nerdy stereotype, which seems like a misguided attempt at not being racist lmao.
Andre and Jade should have gotten together! I feel like they compliment each others’ personalities very well. Andre was awesome and I’m sad he got sidelined so much
@amazingunreleasedalbumsAndre is a nice person but he's also not like Beck. He's able to put his foot down on stuff he doesn't like when he really doesn't want to. I feel like he can be a dominant role that jade seems to need in relationships. While also being sweet and understanding. I don't think he'd flirt with other girls which would quell jades jealousy. But he could still challenge her because he's very teasing. Then again Andre is scared of her.
The idea of Andre dating a girl general was always played off as a joke. That girl with the curly hair that was into Andre would've been a perfect match, and just when we get our hopes up that we'll be seeing more of her, they throw the "Hammertime" nonsense into it just because Andre had the potential to date a girl that was actually hotter and much more interesting than Jade. Andre was the only character in the whole group that most of us would love to hang out with because he was just super chill, loyal, supportive, and talented, but he wasn't allowed to have a normal life at all, which was very annoying.
People always wonder why poc mainly black people and mainly black women want good representation. Yeah after being stereotyped as a mean black women or the black best friend. Whenever a black woman is the lead it's then woke. Not all black women are the same or a stereotype and it's fun to see that in the media today. The black girl can be nerdy or the love interest and just not the stereotype Hollywood tried to push.
Your whole point on Sam embodying black female stereotypes is not wrong. I don’t know how accurate this is but apparently Sam was supposed to be that black token friend. Production decided to make her white because her attributes sounded way too stereotypical and harmful. Please let me know if this is right or wrong. I just saw this on Reddit
I always assumed that they filmed the pilot and threw away the Rex puppet. Maybe when the show got picked up, they relaxed they still needed a puppet and got another one.
18:46 this right here is the point. Black people on TV are rare depicted with their entire humanity intact and that’s a problem. Black people are not a monolith.
Drake and Josh -- Helen. The iconic "loud black woman". ...Which is a shame, because Yvette Nicole Brown is a wonderful actress and she's been typecast ever since.
I really enjoy that this isn’t another video that will just devolve into Dan Schneider crimes and issues, the shows involving him have more to be discussed than just the fact he was on them
The thing with Andre and Tori: If they would've stuck with not having any couples in the show except for Jade and Beck (who had one of the worst relationship ever lmao) I would've totally be fine with it and people saying "Andre and Tori should've stayed friends" but then also don't try to force Beck and Tori down on the audience throats ! They had zero chemistry ! Especially if you have someone like Andre and Tori who, even tho having a sibling like relationship, also had some sparks here and there. Them not having even the smallest of HINTS on getting together down the road, when even Cat and Robbie shared a kiss made me realize how hard they tried to avoid this ship for OBVIOUS reasons...
it's odd, I never thought of 'Scary Spice' as anyone but who she was -- and yet she's the one me and my friends wound up just calling by her actual name the soonest, because "Scary Spice" still didn't fit her overall. so we called her Mel B while we called the others by the ____ Spice nicknames. to look back on it as an example of that pervasive stereotype is indeed so gross but I'm glad it didn't seem to impact how my friends and I viewed her or the group as a whole. (I was my group's resident Posh stan; we had a Mel B stan and a Ginger stan in the group as well.)
I also think it's important to point out that the "angry Black woman" trope and the "magical Black person" trope actually converge in characters like Helen Dubois; it's important not to just say 'oh this character is an angry Black woman' to these other (mostly white) characters. You need to acknowledge that there's also an element of 'deep down, this woman knows what's actually the right thing to do and we should listen' because that is what makes these tropes so pervasive -- they aren't 100% negative to the demographic they are for. there is a lot of gray area where we dip into the category of "positive racist stereotypes" and that is why the conversation gets so muddled.
Here's the stereotypes for those who actually wanted a video about the different characters that appear in every show Main character who's always "attractive" and liked by half their peers except one Annoying person (usually a secondary antagonist) Hot guy who's surprisingly chill Bad girl (sometimes the antagonist but also sometimes friends with the main character) Dumb cute girl Nerdy guy Weird guy Cool guy Annoying sibling Chill, terrible or absent mother Clueless, stupid, strict, or absent father usually it's either one or the other, but there's always one parental figure
Andre's cousin was actually the first time i noticed it as a kid.. idk if for the other examples i was too young or if they were just subtle enough, but the way that outrage scene was played was difficult not to notice the stereotype she was supposed to represent.. i also never really noticed it with Helen because i always thought she was super sweet towards nearly everyone except Josh.. with Rex however it was extremely noticeable because his inappropriate one-liners were never that subtle.. i'm not seeing it with Sam tho.. growing up i knew irl white girls who were exactly like her.. heck, sometimes she also even gives trailer trash vibes..
on top of the stereotypes, there’s a GLARING lack of POC main characters. which must’ve been obvious to them after the fact when the sprinkled poc into the reboots.
I love that you brought up Spice Girls as the first segment. At some point in my head I stopped calling Mel B Scary Spice and started calling her Spunky Spice -- I always thought that was a more fitting name to her character and outfits. she was my favorite. super outgoing and her outfits were some of the most fun and fashion forward. when i was reminded that her nickname was actually scary spice and not spunky spice i was pretty bummed lol. i basically mandela effected myself into giving her a better nickname
Rex’s color got changed because of test group after the pilot. A couple people apparently raised a concern about the Jewish kid puppeteering a black representation puppet being a little on the noise. (Not because of the black racism but because of the crazy Jewish conspiracy theories that kinda of got front page news at the time thanks to the Mel Gibson arrest around the same time.) It was in an insider magazine at the time, I’m sure you can find it in the bowls of the internet if you really scrape.
Drake and Josh was my least favourite nickelodeon show but I distinctively remember really liking Helen bcz of all the same reasons you mentioned and i found her to be really pretty.
As a writer it’s sometimes interesting to look back and see how many missed opportunities they had with the characters. There are characters on here that I feel like, if they were written better or given much better arcs with finer improvements, they could have potentially been fan favorites. 2 that come to my mind right away are Helen and Jocelyn. 1. Helen could have very easily had more episodes showing off more of her sweet side and being nicer to people. She already has a lot of the makings of one in Drake and Josh, and I personally feel as if everything in terms of her characterization from that show was fine just the way it was. Even as a kid I felt as if she really didn’t even need to be included in shows like Victorious because it completely contradicted her characterization in D&J. Her arc already ended perfectly from her wedding episode. (which should have been the series finale but that discussion’s for another day lmao.) 2. Jocelyn to me was just wasted potential, here’s how I would have written her episode. Sam still has a crush on the dude she’s interested in but is still afraid to come across as too tomboy-ish/boy-ish etc. Then we see Jocelyn ‘bullying’ a kid, the teacher breaks it up per usual etc. However, later on during the episode Sam bumps into Jocelyn and instead of Jocelyn beating Sam up, she instead picks up Sam’s books and hands them to her. From that point on we learn that Jocelyn’s reasons for ‘bullying’ that kid were actually 100% justified (insert genuinely solid reason here) and at some point during the conversation Jocelyn and Sam learn to become friends with each other. Later on Jocelyn finds out what Sam’s trying to do to impress the boy she likes and reflects as she used to act a very similar way, she would try to encourage Sam to be her own person and to not change who she is all for the sake of impressing someone else, however the advice would fall on deaf ears (as giving advice to people who are in love often does.) as Sam would walk away. Jocelyn would come up with an idea. Towards the later half of the episode Jocelyn insults and pushes Carly like she does in the original episode, only this time Sam would be even more angry because Jocelyn was someone she thought was her friend. Sam and Jocelyn then duke it out as normal only towards the end of the fight, Jocelyn asks Sam if she enjoyed beating her up, Sam confused by what she means would say yes. Jocelyn would then respond with something along the lines of ‘Good, remember how that felt. Never forget it.’ (It’s perfectly in tune with Schneider’s albeit most times random humor all while teaching an important lesson about individuality and being your own person.) Jocelyn would be kicked out of the store and from that point on Sam starts acting like her usual normal self again, only this time instead of Jocelyn being portrayed as the violent intimidating bully, she’s portrayed as if anything the opposite. Hell, if I were in charge? I’d make her a recurring side character that would often stick up for Sam instead of just a one off. Hell, she might even have her own character arc where she finds healthier ways to cope with her inner anger’s and frustrations (but that’s a story for another day I suppose.) Regardless. From my new summary alone, she works not only much better as a foil to Sam in this episode, but it also makes her a more memorable character as a result. I apologize if this summary was very unorthodox and jumbled, but I love trying to problem solve and come up with various ways and solutions to fix characters and expand on aspects where I feel they could be expanded upon.
I rewatched Victorious during the pandemic. Or tried to, anyway, I stopped pretty early on when I realized how much of the content was revolved around shipping (and arguably sexualizing) characters. It's crazy how much Nick got away with when it comes to racial stereotypes, sexualization, and general mistreatment of marginalized groups, that I didn't fully grasp since I was just a kid
Does anyone else remember that episode of Victorious where they were stuck in "Yerbania" which was an obvious parody of Balkan countries (the name literally sounded like Serbia, Albania, Yugoslavia) and the flag was just a yellow Albanian flag? And the running joke was how poor and weird the country was and that they were at war? There would be bombs going off outside and the cast just looked at each other like "uhhh ... awkward! 😳" I was born over there and escaped with my parents as refugees because of the war and ongoing genocide so it was a touchy subject for me as a kid, plus being bullied for not speaking English well. I remember when that episode aired my face was hot and my heart was pounding the whole time from embarrassment and anger lol
Holy shit....that is so insane. I'm so sorry that made you feel embarrassed about your culture, especially after having fleed a WAR?! Only American media would depict war like a goddamn inconvenience. The things kids television got away with is beyond wild.
I remember that was a two part episode. I couldn’t watch after they got to The hotel in Yerba. It was nothing but disparaging jokes that felt targeted. I was disgusted. I can not imagine the rage I’d feel if I were in your shoes. I’m so sorry. The insensitivity and blatant irresponsibility of Dan Sneider’s shows is limitless.
Girl I thought it was a parody of my own country 😨 (I'm from Cuba). I think they even use footage from my country but I'm not sure. Either way, it was giving communist dictatorship😭
@@v0519I can definitely see the similarities in that too! Especially that it was said to be an island. It was the name and the flag + war stuff that felt personal to me 😭 Either way, completely disrespectful and gross
I don’t really think that Helen fits the angry black woman stereotype; I’ve always felt like a key part of that trope was the masculinization of black women that Helen doesn’t really seem to convey like most examples
I also do not think that Helen falls into that stereotype, but I do think they were trying to put her there by constantly having other characters respond to her with fear, another “scary” black woman
@@Tronn9672i definitely agree with this, although i think in the beginning Helen was just supposed to be “scary” because she’s Josh’s boss, but then shows she’s not by how she treats Drake, funny juxtaposition. but kids tv has gotten more outrageous over time and they leaned incredibly hard into her harshness, like on Victorious (thus, leaning into the stereotype more).. like the Helen on Victorious feels like a completely different Helen than the person on Drake and Josh (like when they use her hot tub and it’s shown that she has a cool-ass life and is really fun outside of work)
As a Hispanic male from Virginia that primarily hung out with black students growing up, I honestly wasn’t aware of the “angry black woman” stereotype until watching Quinton’s video on iCarly…💀
This is also really eye opening, because I realised that it's a struggle to think of ten named black main or recurring characters in the nick shows I watched. There really was little to no representation of black or Asian people in those days. I can't speak for any new shows, of course, but I'd hope it's not the same these days.
There are a lot more black leads in the new shows from what it seems. Not that I watch the new Nick shows because most of them look like hot garbage honestly. But there’s definitely more now than before.
she is jewish, it was mentioned several times in the earlier seasons. The writers made a continuity error with saying she's not for a one-off pun. Really it can be seen that she's either jewish or she's not, it's pretty unimportant
@@hassanalkhalaf1115 I can’t remember any specific/particular mentions of it, but she had a star of david necklace hung up in her locker, so that seems pretty definitive that she was at least originally written to be jewish
She could be Jewish heritage but not practicing Jewish faith, and lies to her grandma about practicing Judaism to get more money out of her 🤷🏼♀️ But the reality is more likely that the writers weren’t taking anything serious enough in a kids sitcom to keep up with continuity, they don’t have time to keep things canon if it sacrifices a bit.
@@greysonholtzhow can you say was mentioned several times in earlier seasons, and then when asked to provide those examples you'd say you don't know any of them lol? How can you say that they existed if you genuinely don't remember them
Even Charolette’s depiction is kind of odd, because I remember being younger and feeling like her intelligence was treated as “abnormal” for a while. Just uncomfortable.
I have to comment again because there are a lot of people who lack basic comprehension in the comments. Tronn is not saying that Sam’s character IS black. He’s pointing out the harm that comes from them using obvious stereotypes associated with black people (women specifically) and attaching them to this character to make her appear more “edgy.” The problem is that they literally associate black cultural things like rap music and aave and stereotypes with “edge” and “aggression.” It’s the same thing with Rex. And it’s even more obvious what they were doing with Rex because the puppet literally started out black. I’m also inclined to believe the whole story about Dan originally wanting a black actress to play Sam because 1. They started with a black puppet in Victorious and later changed it. Probably due to them realizing how that looks 2. All of Dan’s shows prior to icarly and even after, had at least one black character who was a part of the main ensemble. I always found it weird that iCarly didn’t have any. (Not including T-Bo because he didn’t become a recurring character until later seasons). I hope that everyone watching this video, especially nonblack viewers will listen to understand and not to respond. These ideas and patterns don’t just come out of thin air. They’re harmful and upsetting to say the very least.
@@witchplease9695 mama it's a show reboot, with the exact same premise. They kept every character except one, sam, and the one new character who's Carly's "feisty" bestie is now a Black woman. Which the new show is milking HARD. also just throwing in Freddy's daughter being black is levels of weird considering the iCarly gang has only had meaningful relationships with white people.
@@ShouPowIt's not a reboot, the producers and Miranda Cosgrove literally made that clear. It takes place AFTER the original iCarly. You just lack comprehension. So confident and *so* wrong. Lol.
Weird that they took the "have a black puppet full of stereotypes" joke from Arrested Development but took out the "and everyone is very uncomfortable about it and asserts that its wrong" part then made a whole actual character
@@JaxNovoa509 well obviously i was a child when i was shopping them lol, but i don’t get it? why is it a lousy ship? i think it’s a weird thing to judge people for im genuinely curious
@@emilyislame5078 Not every main male character and main female character need to be a couple in a show. They worked better as just friends and the writers handled that perfectly. And even if they did start becoming a couple, it would've just felt very forced and would most likely be short lived, similar to Sam and Freddie. If anything, Andre getting together with Jade would've been so much better than with Tori.
@@JaxNovoa509 i was like 11 years old tho lol im an adult well over drinking age now lol i don’t think it’s that deep. but i see what u saying it’s just rlly not something to call someone lousy for, but that’s just my personal onion 🧅 lolol
The visual of Rex as "black" being controlled by a white performing was probably flagged as not a good look. This was a genuine concern and is even addressed in shows like West Wing, where Leo was concerned about the visual of Charlie "serving the President."
I hate Sam but what I hate more is the fact characters like Carly just sits back and watch as she is abusive to other characters. Why are these 2 best friends?
Carly's an enabler. Whenever Sam goes feral on someone, she just smiles and rolls her eyes as if her best friend's violent disposition is just a cute personality quirk. In any other show, that would be disturbing as all fuck.
Omg yes! Aside from Dan Schneiders creepiness, that's one of the worst things about the show. Carly let Sam get away with damn near everything. The only time she actually put her foot down was when Sam told Freddie's secret on the internet.
I always thought that the whole rex thing was robbie trying to sound "cooler" (?) and "saying his true thoughts and opinions" but i think i gave this show too much credit...
Aside from the controversy of Rex sounding “urban”. (They even called him an “urban puppet” in the show, which sounds like such a weird dog whistle), I feel like Robbie often used him to make a bunch of weird, creepy comments as well.
I remember towards the end of Drake and Josh( the really big shrimp movie) Helen was getting married and her grandmother had to stay with deal and Josh’s family for some reason before the wedding. Looking at the character now, I think she was a precursor to how Andre’s grandmother character. An older black woman who is loud and is depicted as having some sort of mental illness but it’s played off as a joke.
sam was supposedly written to be black, so the fried chicken stereotype and aggressive would’ve been more noticeable; edit: just got to this part in the video.
THANK UUUU SO MUCH NO ONE HAS SPOKE ABOUT THIS THE LITTLE GIRL IN SAME AND CAT “I didn’t throw nothing..” AND THEN WHEN ANDRE BROUGHT HIS COUSIN TO THAT REALITY SHOW- AND SHE WAS ACTING LIKE A STEREOTYPE.
Not an example of antiblackness, but I swear Jade was giving racist vibes in the pilot. Because the way she (a white girl) saw a Tori (who’s brown) touch her boyfriend (also brown) in an innocent way and then proceeded to immediately force her to play as a dog and dump coffee all over her head in front of the whole class. And I get they were trying to set up the conflict for the show but it was lowkey triggering because I’ve seen white girls attempt to viciously humiliate brown and black girls over the tiniest perceived slight so many times and hate us for all eternity, but they have no problem getting with our men.
One interesting thing I found about that scenario and Tori's depiction in general is that at times they wanted to treat her as brown or mixed and other times as another White girl depending on the episode and who she's talking to. I always wondered if this was related to Victoria Justice looking less "ethnic" as she got older.
I don’t think that’s a race thing. At least in the show. Jade acted that way about Beck the entire show. The tiniest things would make this chick overreact. Honestly Jade getting her karma at the end was nice to see. Partly because her fanbase annoys the shit out of me.
y'all forget that Victoria's IRL mom is a white Puerto Rican woman. Latin American is not a race and does not automatically make you "brown." she's of white Spanish descent from her mom's side and white English, Irish, German from her dad's side. so any attempts to make her more "ethnic" were misguided and racist, trying to homogenize Latin Americans into one "brown" race when it's a regional group of people of any race.
@@sunnyblossom_711 I’m not using brown interchangeably with Latin American. I grew up with hella Puerto Ricans and plenty of them were white. Her mom ain’t one of them. She’s more what they call “trigueño” or someone who’s mixed Indigenous, European, and African and isn’t as heavily one or the other. You can tell she has Spanish blood but she favors Indigenous features more so looks wise compared to a lot of Boricuas I’ve seen.
My friend and I (she is black and I'm Latino) went through what you're describing about these two girls when we were both back in high school. Looking back, I wished both of us could've seen right through those toxic white girls who viewed us as nothing but threats and pests. Now I knew there was a reason why I never really shipped Bade nor am I fond of that ship in the first place. I thought I could ship Jori instead for the sake of sapphic representation, but after what you just said, there is no way I can pair up Tori with a white girl who showed her microaggression racism in her own way. So yeah, Tori x Andre for me only.
jennette(very reasonably) did not want to come back to do the reboot of icarly. of course, carly needs a new best friend so they added a character (idk her name coz i haven't watched it) who happens to be black. i saw a short of a scene with her and carly and as i was reading the comments i came across one like this "its so ridiculous to see that black girl try to replace sam as much as possible, she's not the same" smth like that, and it was so annoying because sam's whole personality is that of a stereotypical black woman, like she even does a "stereotypical black accent" sometimes in sam and cat.
@@pabloescobarschanclas of course i don't mean a full on black accent, that would've been too controversial, but sometimes her intonation sounds uncannily like that of a black person's and its clear that that is not how she usually speaks. (and its done when she is joking in order to make the scene funnier) i don't really note down every example i see so idk what to tell you
@@yoyomintzz7657 i’ve been thinking back through the episodes since i read this comment because it’s been kind of eating at me. the closest thing to what you’re talking about that i can think of is sam referring to herself in third person sometimes as mama. like for example, she’d be like “mama loves her fat cakes” (fat cakes referring to those pink packaged pastries in the show that sam packed with her to go to japan.) is that kind of what you’re thinking of?
As someone who grew up in poverty, I just saw Sam as a stereotype for "trailer trash" (I do not think that's an appropriate way to label people, I'm just using the name for a point). I saw her as angry about her lot in life, aggressive as a defense, and always hungry because she's broke. That was realistic and unfortunately probably relatable for many viewers. That episode where she had to pay everyone back made me really uncomfortable because it was clear, to me at least, that she was doing everything she could by herself to make the money. The people she borrowed from were either old enough to have their own jobs or they got it from their parents. I could feel her despair and I hated how it was played for laughs. She's a kid and kids don't fully understand how to handle money. Yes, she shouldn't have taken all of that money, but again, she has no one to really take care of her that could give her an allowance. I didn't associate her back then with the black community but I get where you're coming from. The stereotype of "trailer trash" isn't exclusive to one race, but when I hear the term, I first think of a white person in poverty. Sam is being made fun of for her situation by the showrunners, so that makes me think more that she fits that stereotype more. I think making her any other race would be deemed offensive even though laughing at people in poverty and broken homes is already in poor taste. I do see parallels between the "trailer trash" and black stereotypes used, especially in the sitcoms produced by Nick. I just think Sam fits more into the former. I fully agree that Rex is a stereotypical black person. I remember watching Victorious wondering if it's okay for him to act/talk like that and also wondering if I was racist for making that connection. Of course I don't think black people behave the way Rex does, I think he's a caricature and a possible reference to minstrels. That also made me uncomfortable and I wondered how that was given the okay. They didn't make Andre into a loud, weird, "urban" character, so why is this light skinned puppet who is controlled by a nonblack character like this? Was this to show Robbie's internalized racism? Was it supposed to be funny? I'm curious to see what the actors thought of Rex because I can't remember ever liking or laughing at him.
This also reminds me about his views on black women reflects his wife’s views too. Between her and Patti LaBelle on the Tyra Banks show. Talking to Ms LaBelle like she was a kid and being disrespectful.
“That’s why stereotypes are so powerful: Once we make the association in our minds about where this character belongs and who they are, they kind of always stay there-even if there’s new information to challenge this idea.” (7:50-8:02) So well said!
2mins in and I have to pause to say this is such a fascinating story about the Spice Girls and an excellent way to start the video, I'm hooked in and my mind is blown already
Okay so I want to address my comment about Sam. I still stand by my analysis and would like to add more nuance, because I don’t think I explained myself clearly. The last thing that I would want to do as a black person is imply that poverty and absent fathers are exclusive to the black community. We know those stereotypes are harmful because anyone from any race or background can experience those issues. My feelings on Sam are that while those experiences on their own do not necessarily mean she’s a black caricature, the show itself intentionally tried to align both her and Rex with blackness, by relying on stereotypes. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that as the show went on and we learned more about her those details would just be randomly thrown in there. For example of course other races love hip hop and rapping, but I don’t think it’s a coincidence that in the iCarly Victorious crossover, when Robbie destroyed the speaker system his attempt at rapping was seen as inauthentic, but the “urban” puppet was seen as a good rapper. And throughout the party when he was having rap battles his only opponents were black and the ONLY person who could beat him was Sam? It just felt so clear to me that that was an intentional effort to align Rex and Sam with blackness. Now of course, loving fried chicken, having an absent father and loving hip hop are not exclusive to black people, but in this Dan Schneider Universe it is. Sam and Rex were aligned with blackness to make them seem more edgy. I understand if people still disagree and reject this idea, but I would hate for anyone’s takeaway to be that I believe black people can only be depicted in this one stereotypical way.
@@LillyHitara Okay?
I promise you, us black people know what you’re talking about fren 😌❤️
by this logic they were doing this with all of the victorious cast. 5 fingers to the face is a rap
@@dmdudes2that’s one song so no ☠️they literally called Rex URBAN. They knew exactly what they were doing.
@@jadamaynard-chung3046yup
I was always confused about ”Scary Spice”, it would make sense for a goth or something but I didn’t see what was scary about her.
The stereotype they were going for was the " unhinged alt girl stereotype " ( for example : jinx (league of legends) / harley quinn ( DC comics )
She was the thoughest with the stronger character
When I was little I always thought she was scary cos she wore leopard print and I knew they were scary animals but now that I’m older I see there’s definitely a racial element to that nickname
White trad goth here, I totally agree. Scary spice was my favorite because of her fashion and attitude, and that's why it's so important to educate ourselves on racial issues like that. Shes still truly an inspiration though
@@nobirthday definitely!!
The angry black woman stereotype affects black women in real life. I will never forget when I was working at an insurance office back in 2019. I was the only black woman there and it was a very small office. I remember my manager and coworker called me to say that they will be late so I was alone there for a couple of hours. I noticed that there were no customers and I had to use the bathroom really bad. I went to the bathroom and came back and I saw a customer outside. I greeted her and she asked where my manager was. I told her that my manager stepped away but will be back. ( That’s what my manager said to tell customers when they ask .) The customer who was a white lady asked if I even worked here. I said yes. She responded back that she did not recognize me. I said I was new but she accused me of lying. She told me that I was probably a thief trying to steal the computers. I was literally sitting at my desk in my work uniform. I defended myself of course and said I’m not a thief. I have been working here for a couple of months. The customer told me that she didn’t like “ my tone “ and I’m being “ aggressive “. She kept accusing me of lying and asked to speak to my manager. I called my manager after she asked to speak to my manager but she kept going off about how I’m lying. I really don’t work here. She proceeded to say that she is calling the police. I told my manager what was going on and I handed my phone to her. Fortunately he was only a few minutes away and he showed up and helped the customer. When I tried to talk to him about the way she treated me, he simply said she was crazy. The police really did show up later that day and we had to explain what really happened. I quit shortly after that. That’s how the angry black woman stereotype can negatively affect us in real life. She falsely accused me of being a thief and when I defended myself, I was being “ aggressive “.
I'm sorry that happened to you. I just know that lady is miserable every day of her life. I thrive knowing racists wish they could tear me down. We persist. Fuck them.
Yeah, it's really tough. I've been stereotyped as the angry black woman too. It starts in childhood.
That’s so disgusting. I’m sorry you experienced that. The fact that she went out of her way to falsely accuse you is crazy.
Oo oo aa aa monkey!
That's really evil of her I hope you got a better job after that or that atleast the manager was helpful
It's incredibly disturbing that Sam was obsessed with food, while Jennette was battling an eating disorder in real life.
@@Coffeeisnecessarynowpepper I mean eating disorders do exist
@@Coffeeisnecessarynowpepper she had anorexia and then bulimia. You're a tool.
@@chrisdiokno5600they clearly don’t know how eating disorders work
@@CoffeeisnecessarynowpepperIt wasn't about eating unhealthy food. She never specified her eating disorder but you need a certain amount of calories a day. A lot of them and if you're obsessed with a low calorie intake you won't get nutrition. That's less healthy than eating unhealthy. On top of not taking in any nutrition you'll be starving.
@@Coffeeisnecessarynowpepper congrats, you’re gonna get a lot of traction for your ignorant statement, as if you knew what was happening. You won, but at what cost?
Andre was my favourite as a kid, and I very much noticed they avoided giving him a love interest and was livid. Was so happy when i thought he could have smt w jade 😔
Even as a kid I noticed that! I knew that if he wasn’t black, he would’ve gotten with Tori, because I watched *so many* teen sitcoms and picked out their patterns.
I was critical as hell of these shows because I was analytical. I remember being like 9 and being upset at how I rarely saw interracial relationships being advertised, and especially not ones where a white person wasn’t involved. Or watching Jessie and realizing that shows rarely let adult black women have natural hairstyles, and usually it was only the children who seemed to.
God. Justice for Andre. He was genuinely one of the best characters and he would’ve been perfect for Tori if they cared to go that route. He got her into Hollywood arts! He was her first friend there! And is a good friend! They perform together! He’s a singer, songwriter, and plays more than one instrument. It’s like they wrote him to be Tori’s endgame he’s so fitting. But then they sidelined him and he never got the same kind of attention as the other characters. It felt like even Trina got more attention. WHY.
When I was an oblivious kid (and Victorious being the first Nickelodeon show I watched) I always thought him and Tori were going to be a will they won’t they sorta story that would have ended with them together. Still pissed that they didn’t, they had amazing chemistry
@CreoTan Andre and Tori have EVERY aspect of a romantical pairing for a children tv main relationship. Why they hadnt done it? Cause he's black
And people like to defend it by, "no it's just showcasing that men and women can be just friends without romance developing" funny how thats only the case when it's a poc character (or in some cases a whatever girl character that isnt as atractive or the fan favourite as the other girl option, cant rly explain)
yesss i always wanted him to be with tori, and he was obviously the most talented of them all
I honestly wanted him to be with Jade then again that probably woule mess with the brocode with him. Yet I do understand Tori n him being together too, thats just options they could've went with Andre
its funny because andrew's gf acts the same way as jade but ofc everyone would hate the black woman
Jade was never rude to anyone for no reason though, besides Tori maybe.
@@lukeskywalker9507 to all the other students she was
@@lukeskywalker9507 Someone's never watched Victorious
@@lukeskywalker9507rewatch the show she's rude to everyone
Oooor because Jade is a main character. And you're just making up nonsense. It's extremely obvious to anyone who isn't looking for nonsense to be mad about. Jade has been there the entire time, and is even given character development to show she's acting the wrong way and shouldn't be like that. A one off character is there just to show they're wrong. But because one is blk, racists like you are mad about it...
What's crazy is that if there was a black female character that acted like sam at the time she would be hated
Yesss. People r always saying sam is so real for that or sam is me. If it were a black girl they would've said she doing too much or it would've been better without her
Why? Are you racist?
Why? What's wrong with realism?
@@rizkiramadhan9266shut up man
@@rizkiramadhan9266 Realism...?
Jocelyn, the bully… I never realized she is just… a grown ass woman? Not only is she 6ft tall, but she looks much older than everyone else. I think that part of casting was intentional, and I don’t like it very much.
Also, a lot of these characters only did well because of their actors. Yvette Nicole Brown is a gift to the world! And whoever plays Andre’s grandmother put her ALL into that.
...I'm just wondering if she's single...
It's disgusting when you realize black children are adultified all the time, and it's rooted in racism. A black boy is seen as a threat, and a black girl is more likely to be sexualized than a white girl. Adults justify their blatant racist treatment of actual children by aging them up in their heads.
@@PhoenixRising87👀 fr
Yeah and the actress, Cynthia Dallas was around 29 at the time the episode aired so she was near 30 (which they also did the same thing with that one girl who Sam was friends with named Dana. The actress was 32 at the time the episode aired)
@@devonmunn5728 her friend Dana was young looking though she passed for the same age as Sam
as a Black woman who loved some of these shows growing up, thank you for waking this shit up lol because as an adult it’s beyond obvious
I still don’t see Sam being black tho 🤷🏿♂️
@@Thenoble1j i mean if you say so. i see it though
@@lunarblake it seems like you're pigeonholding degenerate behavior (Sam being a troubled aggressive girl with no dad) with only specifics to black people. I dunno but that seems more racist.
@@lunarblakeyou see if cause you want her to be black and it’s weird lol
@@Thenoble1j Because, to you, she probably didn't look like a stereotypical black woman. It's in her behavior, not her appearance. I can without a doubt understand what Tronn is trying to convey. Especially when this exact aggressive nature is displayed with actual POC in other shows Dan has created.
so all that tori/andre subtext was in my mind?! i always thought they had a thing going on that just wasnt brought up
Literally!! Especially during that one mascot episode where after Andre talked to Tori he INSTANTLY wrote a LOVE SONG. Like I think they would've been cute together 💔
They have a lot of set up. I just don't like how Tori's flaws are never addressed like others in the show. She's "perfect". I dunno I would've preferred andre got with Cat or Jade. Or even just had a consistent girlfriend not in the main cast.
@@trialerrorsharer9398I like the idea of him having a girlfriend not apart of the friend group.
Unlike Tori and Beck, they never showed any romantic interest towards each other
I DID TO!!!
As a kid, I was confused by why other characters were expected to be scared of Helen. I can’t help but think some of the writers wanted to expand upon her character to make her the Helen we admired, while other writers wanted to keep her boxed into the stereotypes.
I agree, she was my favorite character from Drake and Josh. My brother and i to this day still bring her up. And when she showed up I audibly cheered. And I was so disappointed with how everyone was scared of her even back than I was like???
She was so funny like when she didnt pay josh bc she wanted to save some money 😭😭😭
@@noeliaurquizo4620yes! And when they help her with her eyes, me ans my friends still quote "a ti no te sale, callate" and "ese no es asunto mio" ❤
@@barbicel Esooo
Probably because her character was another example of the "neurodivergent people = dangerous and scary" stereotype that is also persistent throughout Schneider's works
I've always hated how kid's tv was so against interracial couples and any black character might have a singular date or crush on a white character they always ultimately ended up with a black partner
and now this stereotype is so heavily put only on black women, theres 15 movies a year coming out about a black man and a white woman or any other race of woman but rarely ever a black woman dating outside of their race
i thought it was only me that noticed like i love black love but they would never have a non black throw away character love interest 😭
THANK YOU I THOUGHT I WAS THE ONLY ONE. Especially as a guy who finds interracial relationships as a breath of fresh air from popular media, and the possibilities like the mixing and integration of different cultures. IT’S NOT ALWAY THE SAMESIES EVERY 2010’s SHOW I CAN THINK OF!
You mean a lot like what happens in the real world? Got it.
@@JoeyBoBoeywhat are you trying to get across with your comment
The “angry black women” part is so true also note that literally in everything where black woman are the side characters they usually never cry or show vulnerability. only being “strong, sassy, funny (stereotypically) or angry.
Doesn't help that if they're made to be vulnerable, people complain
@@Nakia11798 I found this out the hard way.
@Nakia11798 That only applies if their character is only based around trauma and suffering, cause that's also a harmful black trope. There's a difference between that and a fully rounded character with vulnerabilities and other traits.
Helen’s character could have been portrayed as a powerful authority figure but instead, like you said, the characters’ REACTIONS to her set up the stereotype. What a shame
Definitely agree it’s a shame, because after seeing Yvette in Community, she’s a great actress and it’s fun watching her play Shirley (who is pretty much the complete opposite of Helen).
Helen just has that stare made the personality fit its called actin
I was always disturbed by the way they portrayed and reacted to Andre’s grandmother as a child. I felt bad for Andre-I was like damn this poor guy has so much on his plate and his friends just joke ab it or brush it all off. I wanted everyone to be nicer to Andre AND his grandma 😢
Si todos se portaban horribles entre si en ese programa
Not gonna lie, I felt bad for Andre, too. His grandmother was a toxic caregiver and Andre’s parents didn’t think straight.
@@pbsfundingaddict790 yeah but his grandmother was sick and had a disease that made her that way-but definitely fucked of his parents for abandoning him to make him care for his grandmother
If I remember correctly, they also made him miss his grandfather's funeral.
@@lazarus8018 YES THEY DID
I’m so here for this Dan Schneider slander
Not slander, because one he's a child molester and two he's a bad writer. And he used insulting stereotypes to divide people even more.
Honestly is it considered slander if its true
This video doesn’t even have much slander in it.
Same here
no hes being exposed
I remember as a kid I never understood why everyone was so scared of Helen. I just thought she was a funny and charming. As a kid, I thought the joke was that she WASN’T scary, but everyone around her thought she was
I remember always loving her when I was little because the character had the same last name as me (DuBois) lol
I'm not from USA so i see Hellen the same way, like someone funny and kind, i never understood that "scary factor"
She acts like my aunt nice but loud and can show authority at same time
No because tori and andrei shouldve been together honestly
I agree
I always thought him and cat would be cute
@@ijustlikebeescat was definitely made for Robbie
@@zaire-aniyarobinson2928Cat is always so uncomfortable around Robbie. He’s such a creep to her and the pirate joke makes it seem like it’s pretty likely he SAed her. So I *really* don’t agree with u on that one
@@zaire-aniyarobinson2928Considering he's dan Schneiders self insert I agree. But I feel like andre would've been able to be silly with cat while also helping her be responsible.
You can pick up on a lot of patterns with various stereotypes across all of these shows:
-Black people are portrayed as angry and physically imposing
-Asians are portrayed as unpopular nerds
-Homeless people (almost exclusively referred to as hobos) are portrayed as scary and almost subhuman
-Characters' mental disorders (Sam and Coco's overeating, Cat's bipolarity, Andre’s grandma’s schizophrenia, etc.) are played purely for laughs
-Transphobic jokes (Jade calls Robbie "sort of a him," Beck uses air quotes when referring to his "Uncle Barbara," Spencer gets called a "man lady" and chased by security guards simply for crossdressing)
-Robbie, who is Jewish, is portrayed as a cheapskate
This was a show when awareness for trans related stuff wasn't all that high
@@sckaze777 doesn't take away the harm it did
@sckaze777
there wasn't any Real awareness for any of the stuff listed except for racism (to an extent.) doesn't make it any less wrong.
I won't consider the "sort of a him" joke to be transphobic per se
She's literally just calling Robbie a half-man, is more like a sexist insult as it is common for us men to get called as "not manly enough" just because we don't show strong traits of masculinity
Is not transphobic, is just sexist. Still bad but in a different cathegory
@@swllzllck133 did i say it wasn't wrong? Also if it hadn't been considered good at some point dan schneider wouldn't have risen to his ranks and produced many similar shows with similar jokes and punchlines. Guess what's wrong is the american tv audience then
sam has the black women stereotype but it's seen as funny and cute because she non black
Do people hate realism that much? Why?
Exactly. Sam would be called all types of “ghetto” and “ratchet” if she was casted as a black character
@amazingunreleasedalbumsI don't know about the cutting Jade out thing. She has some Regina George vibes where she is both feared and loved. Well, before they started making her scream all the time.
also jade
@@rizkiramadhan9266”24 comments on this channel” get a fvcking hobby dude my god. No one cares about your piss poor attempt rage bait, you’ve been in every reply section I’ve opened so far
I mean, considering that according to the black cast from All That in the Quiet On Set documentary, they were overlooked while Dan was focused on little white girls feet. He even complained about a black girl’s birthday cake being too big, so looking back at these shows through your video, these depictions of black characters through his shows aren’t really surprising at all.
Oof
Never heard the spice origin story. I hate pop culture
Me too
And nobody's favorite is "scary spice". Bro really racially profiled her.
why are you watching this type of video then?
Correct! From the mouth of the woman herself; it isn’t about her skin color. She said it’s because she would demand to see interviewers questions, to protect the group, and exuding confidence always. Anyone, especially a woman, being that confrontational will get you called more than scary. She likes scary and identifies with it. Everyone here just wants to be offended so they can feel something in this modern age.
Yeah.
if i remember correctly, i heard that while Dan did co-create Henry Danger, he wasn't on set a lot, which may be why Charlotte seems like a deviation from his use of the stereotype.
Charlotte was and did follow the stereotype in the first season, but since it was so far from Riele (Charlotte’s actress), they decided to switch her characteristics
Yeah, I was kind of wondering if maybe the Schneiderverse has become less racist in recent years
Andre was the “magical n-word” stereotype. He’s only there to help the main protagonist succeed. Aka being Tori’s songwriter lol
There's a society for him
It’s just magісal nеgrо, not mаgісаl nіggеr??
Bro the one girlfriend they gave Andre that was mean asf was darkskin but the others were lightskin 😭 all the stereotypes and micro aggressions were so obvious. So sad
Who cares? They’re fictional characters. It’s not that deep.
@@quangamershyguyyz7166 oh brother…
@@quangamershyguyyz7166Then why are you watching this video???
Ehem ...macro aggressions -micro too don't get me wrong but that is loud and wrong thus macro..and the ppl that dont get it just don't get it like the ignorant little idiotic things they are.
Hi stranger. I’m just letting you know, you look beautiful!
Ok so as someone who had the lady who play Andres cousin as a substitute teacher tell us her experience, it’s very sad how black wonen are portrayed in media honestly and it does carry over into every day life and how people react to black women in public.
What did she say
@@ariannapommells^^
Off topic but you look SO fucking cool
@@ariannapommells basically we thought she was mean like the show but she was saying that they were playing into stereotypes because she was so nice as a sub and she was telling us how hard it was so find gigs
@@chattycatty3336 aweee thank you 🖤
did yall ever see that episode of icarly where the ended it with the characters playing “jamaican tag” with a braids wig on their head💀 it was wild..
There was also that episode where Carly mocked the city name Yakima and the city got the name from the Yakama Tribe, who are Indigenous to what is known as Washington State
Bro… as a guy who’s part Jamaican that’s kinda wild
and the accents were absolutely godawful lmaooooo as a person with jamaican parents even chet hanks did a better job 💀
It’s not braids it’s locs and yea I remember that
The Jamaican guy who worked at the smoothie shop or something in iCarly was always a questionable character too... T-Bo I think his name was?
It’s funny how Helen on the show favored Drake and was always rude to Josh, but apparently behind the scenes Yvette Nicole Brown was always looking out for him and they’re still on good terms
I think it’s also funny how her character in Community is so different. I wish Yvette would do more acting!
Well that’s kind of how acting works lol. Do you think Willem Defoe really hates Toby Maguire and wants to kill him
That has such a different meaning now that we know about the assault between perpetuated by Dan Schneider towards Drake Belss
Kinda weird they swapped the black lady out and expecting us not to notice
I was SO hung up on this as a kid!
I couldn't understand how they thought we wouldn't notice. We weren't babies. The shows target audience was preteens??
Would it have been that hard/expensive to just edit the script for someone to just say the new actress is subbing for Helen whilst she was on a trip or something??
I think the issue there was that they swapped out an entire character, a frequently appearing one at that, and expected us to not notice. It has nothing to do with Helen being black.
Although, Fresh Prince apparently got away with doing the same thing for Aunt Viv, and for much longer.
@@GoldenKernelor they could’ve just saved the script for the episode and shot scenes for another episode during that period instead 😭
You’re forgetting about nicks most famous black woman, Ariana Grande
💀💀
Girl is treating races like Pokemon, gotta catch em all!
i was in genuine disbelief when i found out ariana grande played cat 😭😭
🤣🤣🤣🤣 you play too much.
I'm so glad we're finally having this conversation
Agreed
I think Charlotte from Henry danger is missing
Was she exceptionally angry and irritable? Was she basically a black Karen with a much more rude character and/or mentally unstable? @@Missmagazinebura
@@juandiegotorres9632 she just don’t tell a woman what to do lol so possibly yeah and when she tells Henry and captain man what to do they don’t listen to her
@@Missmagazinebura I always thought she was the voice of reason
They made Raquel Lee play a ratchet ghetto stereotype on the Amanda Show in the Girls Room sketch
The one that always wanted to beat people or flush them in the toilet? I remember they changed actresses at one point, like okay just sub in another Black girl to do the same schtick
@@propogandalf yea they replaced her with Josh peck 🙄
I think this was a wonderful conversation piece. Hollywood has a very obvious history of stereotyping black people or using black people as the "butt of the joke" and I am not surprised that these continued to linger in children's television shows. I am happy that this is finally being brought to light. Dan Schneider knew exactly he was doing with mocking black sterotypes imo.
Andre was the best character on Victorious imo I felt he would’ve been good with Tori even though I don’t ship or anything like that really
I’m so confused bc he was one of the main characters 💀
Tori didn’t like Andre like that. And if we’re being honest, a girl like Tori would not fall for Andre. I feel like y’all are insecure.
@@jaylenadegoke insecure cause I felt like two characters coulda been good together? Yeah alright keep projecting
“Down the Hall, swing a left at the water fountain, second door on the right.” 💀💀
😭😭😭😭
i read it in the voice 💀
"I was being urban"
Only black guy- "yeah, not really" 😂
yeah nothing urban about that
😹😹😹😹
I never made the Helen connection. I always thought people were scared of her cuz she was their boss in some way. But what you said made more sense honestly.
It made WAY more sense to me as I got older. She was loud, mean (mostly to Josh but still), sassy, and stayed angry, and the fact that she was the only black person on the show was icing on the racist cake.
This video opened my eyes because as a kid I just really liked her. I thought Josh's gf was scarier lol.
@@b.7375Mindy sucked too, her constantly putting Josh down by making him feel inferior and I never forgot her attempt to frame Drake for putting the English teacher gave her a low grade so she became vindictive by nearly getting Drake kicked from school because she couldn't handle a B average. I hate that Josh dated an mentally abusive girl narcissist like that.
@@rachelmartin5187It’s not racist though, calm down. Not everything is about race all the time.
@@quangamershyguyyz7166I think you’re on the wrong video
also with andres cousin, it didnt even have to be ANDRES cousin. it couldve been just someone they hired off the internet.
Fr
@@shellydoomor not have her at all. They coulda hired like some biker type dude or they all coulda came together and plotted a prank or whatever.
I remember being a kid and furrowing my brow upon learning the one black Spice Girl was called “Scary”. I think at the time, I vaguely knew about the Aggressive Black Woman stereotype but not in full, but even then just the fact everyone else had these nice names but then you got to the one that looked the most like me and she’s “scary”. But hey, I assumed all this time they chose the names themselves. Learning otherwise makes it so much worse ❤
Same, TIL
exactly, she could've had any other name
A problem that I have with Zoey 101 is that Stacey has a lisp, they were making fun of people that have speech impediments
Wow! Ur so oppressed!
(Really didn’t need everyone to go wild over this I don’t rebuke what i said stay mad and keep commenting to your self!!)
Who cares… if you’re that easily offended why are you watching anything
@@ihartm6scra since when this is an oppression contest? Minimizing other people's pain won't make yours bigger. Matter fact, it will make yours smaller by only validating one specific amount of pain that literally no human can live to reach
@@projectc.j.j3310
-Oh wow, there's shit on the sidewalk, watch out
-Who cares? If you're that easily offended, why are you walking in any sidewalk?
@@Vivian2043 I never complained about a sidewalk💀tf are you taking about
I suspect the reason they changed Rex puppet after the _Victorious_ pilot was because somebody (either a writer or a producer) considered it would be "unaceptable" for a kids show to have a white ventriloquist making a black puppet talk in a stereotypically black manner. _Arrested Developtment_ had a main character do exactly that and the reaction of the only character with some semblance of decency was "this is inappropiate and in poor taste, please stop", and people didn't complain (as far as I know) because it was a comedy for adults, children TV shows have less leeway for that sort of thing
The joke on Arrested Development was that it was racist and everyone knew it, except for the puppeteer. But there's no self-awareness in the Schneider-verse
Wow, was charlotte really the only black girl/woman who wasn’t written with this stereotype?? Disappointing looking back as an adult. Wonderful video, and a necessary discussion to have.
For anyone who is thinking “it’s fiction, who is it hurting?” I does hurt countless black people/women. I grew up very conflicted because I loved these shows but felt gaslit and boxed in. Many of the thoughts in my head where “is that how we’re depicted? Do people see me like that?” This was as a kid, little alone as an adult. No, I don’t think this video was a reach. Even in the recent ‘Quiet on Set’ docuseries a topic that was talked about was the unfair treatment of people of color as well as bother mothers sticking up for their kids and being called ‘Angry Black Women’ so yeah, this stuff both happens on the show, bts of the show, and in day to day life.
@@robertjohnson2916 but it’s not a black woman thing…it’s just a person thing.
@robertjohnson2916 that's because of racial bias. Black women will never escape the stereotype because it effects them. If they get normal in a ration situation where they should be then it's still a play into the stereotype white women don't have the stereotype all white people stereotypes are lack of positive poc stereotypes. Good cooking rythm ect which makes them just everage. The default of a person. Check your bias dude. Ofc bw fit into that stereotype if it's all they're made to be.
@@tdf_worldkey6666 I'm black btw.
@@tdf_worldkey6666 black women do act this way. Not all of course but a lot.
@@robertjohnson2916 still doesn't change the fact that even if they don't they'll still be perceived that way if they show any emotion. There's no winning
I completely recognize Jocelyn fell into the angry black woman stereotype, but I will say when I was younger I wanted to be Sam when Jocelyn pushed her against the locker
real
Oh baby... 😅😅 I hope you found your Jocelyn to push you into lockers and what not😭🖤
Don't let your dreams be dreams
Sam should have fought her in the hallway since she had touched her first but when Carly gets pushed that's when she's ok with Sam fighting.
I would really like to see a version of this video focusing on Disney Channel characters. There's a black girl in Austin and Ally who is given similar treatment to Andre's girlfriends. I think her only personality trait is that her breath smelled bad 😒. I feel that most black characters in Disney more fit the nerdy stereotype, which seems like a misguided attempt at not being racist lmao.
The girl from Austin and Ally did date Austin in multiple episodes though and was a recurring character.
Que hay de la protagonista de programa de talentos
Andre and Jade should have gotten together! I feel like they compliment each others’ personalities very well. Andre was awesome and I’m sad he got sidelined so much
@amazingunreleasedalbumsAndre is a nice person but he's also not like Beck. He's able to put his foot down on stuff he doesn't like when he really doesn't want to. I feel like he can be a dominant role that jade seems to need in relationships. While also being sweet and understanding. I don't think he'd flirt with other girls which would quell jades jealousy. But he could still challenge her because he's very teasing. Then again Andre is scared of her.
He does seem like the only person she sees as an equal
@@trialerrorsharer9398 nah bro, Jade is the dom
jade is wayy to toxic to be with anyone
There was an episode where Andre fell in love with Jade but at the end he was out of it
The idea of Andre dating a girl general was always played off as a joke. That girl with the curly hair that was into Andre would've been a perfect match, and just when we get our hopes up that we'll be seeing more of her, they throw the "Hammertime" nonsense into it just because Andre had the potential to date a girl that was actually hotter and much more interesting than Jade.
Andre was the only character in the whole group that most of us would love to hang out with because he was just super chill, loyal, supportive, and talented, but he wasn't allowed to have a normal life at all, which was very annoying.
People always wonder why poc mainly black people and mainly black women want good representation. Yeah after being stereotyped as a mean black women or the black best friend. Whenever a black woman is the lead it's then woke. Not all black women are the same or a stereotype and it's fun to see that in the media today. The black girl can be nerdy or the love interest and just not the stereotype Hollywood tried to push.
In Mariala, Mariala and Carmelo's best friend Debbie Miller defy black stereotypes by being a punk rock loving rebellious girl
Your whole point on Sam embodying black female stereotypes is not wrong. I don’t know how accurate this is but apparently Sam was supposed to be that black token friend. Production decided to make her white because her attributes sounded way too stereotypical and harmful. Please let me know if this is right or wrong. I just saw this on Reddit
yup i heard this a few years ago too! apparently someone who worked in the audition room initially exposed this.
This isn't true
that's just a rumor
@amazingunreleasedalbums i’m not sure that’s why i said apparently , im not 100% sure
It's not true lol
That actually made sense, they made him lighter and lighter over the episodes and seasons.
@amazingunreleasedalbumsDid you watch the video? He literally showed the different puppets
I always assumed that they filmed the pilot and threw away the Rex puppet. Maybe when the show got picked up, they relaxed they still needed a puppet and got another one.
@@neb.9489that makes absolutely no sense
@@propogandalfThere’s only one other puppet that’s lighter skin. That’s literally what they said.
I literally forgot what video I was watching and thought to myself “that’s pretty racist” when they named Mel B scary spice
im not familiar with the spice girls and i was like "let me guess, they called her black spice" before i realized it's honestly a Lot worse than that
@@cyanidenightshadei had the exact same thought process damn
18:46 this right here is the point. Black people on TV are rare depicted with their entire humanity intact and that’s a problem. Black people are not a monolith.
Drake and Josh -- Helen. The iconic "loud black woman".
...Which is a shame, because Yvette Nicole Brown is a wonderful actress and she's been typecast ever since.
I think the only roles she actually got to act in were Community and the Odd couple tbh.
Her in community is iconic and she wasn’t loud or angry. She was however overly religious and very self righteous
Yeah, but that's more tolerable. So many religions people regardless of race and gender are like that.
I really enjoy that this isn’t another video that will just devolve into Dan Schneider crimes and issues, the shows involving him have more to be discussed than just the fact he was on them
The thing with Andre and Tori: If they would've stuck with not having any couples in the show except for Jade and Beck (who had one of the worst relationship ever lmao) I would've totally be fine with it and people saying "Andre and Tori should've stayed friends" but then also don't try to force Beck and Tori down on the audience throats ! They had zero chemistry ! Especially if you have someone like Andre and Tori who, even tho having a sibling like relationship, also had some sparks here and there. Them not having even the smallest of HINTS on getting together down the road, when even Cat and Robbie shared a kiss made me realize how hard they tried to avoid this ship for OBVIOUS reasons...
it's odd, I never thought of 'Scary Spice' as anyone but who she was -- and yet she's the one me and my friends wound up just calling by her actual name the soonest, because "Scary Spice" still didn't fit her overall. so we called her Mel B while we called the others by the ____ Spice nicknames. to look back on it as an example of that pervasive stereotype is indeed so gross but I'm glad it didn't seem to impact how my friends and I viewed her or the group as a whole.
(I was my group's resident Posh stan; we had a Mel B stan and a Ginger stan in the group as well.)
I also think it's important to point out that the "angry Black woman" trope and the "magical Black person" trope actually converge in characters like Helen Dubois; it's important not to just say 'oh this character is an angry Black woman' to these other (mostly white) characters. You need to acknowledge that there's also an element of 'deep down, this woman knows what's actually the right thing to do and we should listen' because that is what makes these tropes so pervasive -- they aren't 100% negative to the demographic they are for.
there is a lot of gray area where we dip into the category of "positive racist stereotypes" and that is why the conversation gets so muddled.
Mel B actually loves the nickname
@@kendrichbadando7950that doesn’t make the nickname any less racist.
Here's the stereotypes for those who actually wanted a video about the different characters that appear in every show
Main character who's always "attractive" and liked by half their peers except one
Annoying person (usually a secondary antagonist)
Hot guy who's surprisingly chill
Bad girl (sometimes the antagonist but also sometimes friends with the main character)
Dumb cute girl
Nerdy guy
Weird guy
Cool guy
Annoying sibling
Chill, terrible or absent mother
Clueless, stupid, strict, or absent father
usually it's either one or the other, but there's always one parental figure
Tori&Trina are probably the only characters having both parents...
what would you possibly know about having a dad?
Did you watch the fucking video?
@@southerncoastproductions7587man I wish I was 14 years old again. Keep on growing lil buddy
@@olakeska7908 the only ones with both parents but both parents are literally never around 💀 gosh there really is a pattern
ngl ive always thought her name and the reasoning behind, "scary spice" just seemed racist
Andre's cousin was actually the first time i noticed it as a kid.. idk if for the other examples i was too young or if they were just subtle enough, but the way that outrage scene was played was difficult not to notice the stereotype she was supposed to represent.. i also never really noticed it with Helen because i always thought she was super sweet towards nearly everyone except Josh.. with Rex however it was extremely noticeable because his inappropriate one-liners were never that subtle..
i'm not seeing it with Sam tho.. growing up i knew irl white girls who were exactly like her.. heck, sometimes she also even gives trailer trash vibes..
Off topic, but did they ever explain what happened to Andre's parents?? Like, he doesn't even say "My mom or dad" which is strange????
Yeah and giving his grandma the custody of Andre clearly demonstrates that Andre’s parents weren’t thinking straight. Poor Andre
on top of the stereotypes, there’s a GLARING lack of POC main characters. which must’ve been obvious to them after the fact when the sprinkled poc into the reboots.
There was always only one token black friend in the group just to throw in diversity and everyone else was white.
yikes ...did anyone notice in drake and josh they randomly replaced Helen with another black lady thinking we would not no the difference
I mean would you rather they replaced her with a white man
I love that you brought up Spice Girls as the first segment. At some point in my head I stopped calling Mel B Scary Spice and started calling her Spunky Spice -- I always thought that was a more fitting name to her character and outfits. she was my favorite. super outgoing and her outfits were some of the most fun and fashion forward. when i was reminded that her nickname was actually scary spice and not spunky spice i was pretty bummed lol. i basically mandela effected myself into giving her a better nickname
Sam ran so whiteboy Carl could walk.
Rex’s color got changed because of test group after the pilot. A couple people apparently raised a concern about the Jewish kid puppeteering a black representation puppet being a little on the noise. (Not because of the black racism but because of the crazy Jewish conspiracy theories that kinda of got front page news at the time thanks to the Mel Gibson arrest around the same time.) It was in an insider magazine at the time, I’m sure you can find it in the bowls of the internet if you really scrape.
Drake and Josh was my least favourite nickelodeon show but I distinctively remember really liking Helen bcz of all the same reasons you mentioned and i found her to be really pretty.
I think they might’ve made rex white because Robbie is white and the idea of *Robbie* doing the “urban” voice is a little too on the nose
I don't think they changed his voice during the series.
As a writer it’s sometimes interesting to look back and see how many missed opportunities they had with the characters. There are characters on here that I feel like, if they were written better or given much better arcs with finer improvements, they could have potentially been fan favorites. 2 that come to my mind right away are Helen and Jocelyn.
1. Helen could have very easily had more episodes showing off more of her sweet side and being nicer to people. She already has a lot of the makings of one in Drake and Josh, and I personally feel as if everything in terms of her characterization from that show was fine just the way it was. Even as a kid I felt as if she really didn’t even need to be included in shows like Victorious because it completely contradicted her characterization in D&J. Her arc already ended perfectly from her wedding episode. (which should have been the series finale but that discussion’s for another day lmao.)
2. Jocelyn to me was just wasted potential, here’s how I would have written her episode. Sam still has a crush on the dude she’s interested in but is still afraid to come across as too tomboy-ish/boy-ish etc. Then we see Jocelyn ‘bullying’ a kid, the teacher breaks it up per usual etc. However, later on during the episode Sam bumps into Jocelyn and instead of Jocelyn beating Sam up, she instead picks up Sam’s books and hands them to her. From that point on we learn that Jocelyn’s reasons for ‘bullying’ that kid were actually 100% justified (insert genuinely solid reason here) and at some point during the conversation Jocelyn and Sam learn to become friends with each other. Later on Jocelyn finds out what Sam’s trying to do to impress the boy she likes and reflects as she used to act a very similar way, she would try to encourage Sam to be her own person and to not change who she is all for the sake of impressing someone else, however the advice would fall on deaf ears (as giving advice to people who are in love often does.) as Sam would walk away. Jocelyn would come up with an idea. Towards the later half of the episode Jocelyn insults and pushes Carly like she does in the original episode, only this time Sam would be even more angry because Jocelyn was someone she thought was her friend. Sam and Jocelyn then duke it out as normal only towards the end of the fight, Jocelyn asks Sam if she enjoyed beating her up, Sam confused by what she means would say yes. Jocelyn would then respond with something along the lines of ‘Good, remember how that felt. Never forget it.’ (It’s perfectly in tune with Schneider’s albeit most times random humor all while teaching an important lesson about individuality and being your own person.) Jocelyn would be kicked out of the store and from that point on Sam starts acting like her usual normal self again, only this time instead of Jocelyn being portrayed as the violent intimidating bully, she’s portrayed as if anything the opposite. Hell, if I were in charge? I’d make her a recurring side character that would often stick up for Sam instead of just a one off. Hell, she might even have her own character arc where she finds healthier ways to cope with her inner anger’s and frustrations (but that’s a story for another day I suppose.) Regardless. From my new summary alone, she works not only much better as a foil to Sam in this episode, but it also makes her a more memorable character as a result.
I apologize if this summary was very unorthodox and jumbled, but I love trying to problem solve and come up with various ways and solutions to fix characters and expand on aspects where I feel they could be expanded upon.
I rewatched Victorious during the pandemic. Or tried to, anyway, I stopped pretty early on when I realized how much of the content was revolved around shipping (and arguably sexualizing) characters. It's crazy how much Nick got away with when it comes to racial stereotypes, sexualization, and general mistreatment of marginalized groups, that I didn't fully grasp since I was just a kid
Does anyone else remember that episode of Victorious where they were stuck in "Yerbania" which was an obvious parody of Balkan countries (the name literally sounded like Serbia, Albania, Yugoslavia) and the flag was just a yellow Albanian flag? And the running joke was how poor and weird the country was and that they were at war? There would be bombs going off outside and the cast just looked at each other like "uhhh ... awkward! 😳" I was born over there and escaped with my parents as refugees because of the war and ongoing genocide so it was a touchy subject for me as a kid, plus being bullied for not speaking English well. I remember when that episode aired my face was hot and my heart was pounding the whole time from embarrassment and anger lol
Holy shit....that is so insane. I'm so sorry that made you feel embarrassed about your culture, especially after having fleed a WAR?! Only American media would depict war like a goddamn inconvenience. The things kids television got away with is beyond wild.
I remember that was a two part episode. I couldn’t watch after they got to The hotel in Yerba. It was nothing but disparaging jokes that felt targeted. I was disgusted. I can not imagine the rage I’d feel if I were in your shoes. I’m so sorry. The insensitivity and blatant irresponsibility of Dan Sneider’s shows is limitless.
Girl I thought it was a parody of my own country 😨 (I'm from Cuba). I think they even use footage from my country but I'm not sure. Either way, it was giving communist dictatorship😭
To clarify my country doesn't have war, I just thought because some things were more relatable and bc of the way they described it at the beginning!
@@v0519I can definitely see the similarities in that too! Especially that it was said to be an island. It was the name and the flag + war stuff that felt personal to me 😭 Either way, completely disrespectful and gross
I don’t really think that Helen fits the angry black woman stereotype; I’ve always felt like a key part of that trope was the masculinization of black women that Helen doesn’t really seem to convey like most examples
I also do not think that Helen falls into that stereotype, but I do think they were trying to put her there by constantly having other characters respond to her with fear, another “scary” black woman
@@Tronn9672I feel like it was just a racism thing, where they are just irrationally scared of the non white person
@@Tronn9672i definitely agree with this, although i think in the beginning Helen was just supposed to be “scary” because she’s Josh’s boss, but then shows she’s not by how she treats Drake, funny juxtaposition. but kids tv has gotten more outrageous over time and they leaned incredibly hard into her harshness, like on Victorious (thus, leaning into the stereotype more).. like the Helen on Victorious feels like a completely different Helen than the person on Drake and Josh (like when they use her hot tub and it’s shown that she has a cool-ass life and is really fun outside of work)
22:29 I never noticed baby Andre was in iCarly!!! 🥹
Victorious wasn't a thing yet during the time of that episode.
As a Hispanic male from Virginia that primarily hung out with black students growing up, I honestly wasn’t aware of the “angry black woman” stereotype until watching Quinton’s video on iCarly…💀
This is also really eye opening, because I realised that it's a struggle to think of ten named black main or recurring characters in the nick shows I watched. There really was little to no representation of black or Asian people in those days. I can't speak for any new shows, of course, but I'd hope it's not the same these days.
There are a lot more black leads in the new shows from what it seems. Not that I watch the new Nick shows because most of them look like hot garbage honestly. But there’s definitely more now than before.
The iCarly reboot is just as white, and the new non-white character tropes are so painfully cringe, most cringe being Freddy's daughter.
sam is not jewish she just said that to scam her grandma💀
she is jewish, it was mentioned several times in the earlier seasons. The writers made a continuity error with saying she's not for a one-off pun. Really it can be seen that she's either jewish or she's not, it's pretty unimportant
@@greysonholtz when has it been said? Just curious
@@hassanalkhalaf1115 I can’t remember any specific/particular mentions of it, but she had a star of david necklace hung up in her locker, so that seems pretty definitive that she was at least originally written to be jewish
She could be Jewish heritage but not practicing Jewish faith, and lies to her grandma about practicing Judaism to get more money out of her 🤷🏼♀️
But the reality is more likely that the writers weren’t taking anything serious enough in a kids sitcom to keep up with continuity, they don’t have time to keep things canon if it sacrifices a bit.
@@greysonholtzhow can you say was mentioned several times in earlier seasons, and then when asked to provide those examples you'd say you don't know any of them lol? How can you say that they existed if you genuinely don't remember them
Even Charolette’s depiction is kind of odd, because I remember being younger and feeling like her intelligence was treated as “abnormal” for a while. Just uncomfortable.
I have to comment again because there are a lot of people who lack basic comprehension in the comments. Tronn is not saying that Sam’s character IS black. He’s pointing out the harm that comes from them using obvious stereotypes associated with black people (women specifically) and attaching them to this character to make her appear more “edgy.” The problem is that they literally associate black cultural things like rap music and aave and stereotypes with “edge” and “aggression.” It’s the same thing with Rex. And it’s even more obvious what they were doing with Rex because the puppet literally started out black. I’m also inclined to believe the whole story about Dan originally wanting a black actress to play Sam because 1. They started with a black puppet in Victorious and later changed it. Probably due to them realizing how that looks 2. All of Dan’s shows prior to icarly and even after, had at least one black character who was a part of the main ensemble. I always found it weird that iCarly didn’t have any. (Not including T-Bo because he didn’t become a recurring character until later seasons). I hope that everyone watching this video, especially nonblack viewers will listen to understand and not to respond. These ideas and patterns don’t just come out of thin air. They’re harmful and upsetting to say the very least.
Agreed. 100%
Also on the reboot of iCarly, Sam's replacement is black
Harper isn't "Sam's replacement" , she's an entirely new character that Carly met in her adulthood...Carly can have other friend that arent Sam
@@witchplease9695 mama it's a show reboot, with the exact same premise. They kept every character except one, sam, and the one new character who's Carly's "feisty" bestie is now a Black woman. Which the new show is milking HARD. also just throwing in Freddy's daughter being black is levels of weird considering the iCarly gang has only had meaningful relationships with white people.
@@ShouPowIt's not a reboot, the producers and Miranda Cosgrove literally made that clear. It takes place AFTER the original iCarly. You just lack comprehension. So confident and *so* wrong. Lol.
@@arisbobait's called a soft reboot.
What's your point?
Weird that they took the "have a black puppet full of stereotypes" joke from Arrested Development but took out the "and everyone is very uncomfortable about it and asserts that its wrong" part then made a whole actual character
Andre deserved better, honestly
i used to ship Andre and Tori so hard 😭 i remember being so confused as to why they wouldn’t do it because they got along so well
Facts they were cute together
Of course there are lousy Tori and Andre shippers in this comment section.
@@JaxNovoa509 well obviously i was a child when i was shopping them lol, but i don’t get it? why is it a lousy ship? i think it’s a weird thing to judge people for im genuinely curious
@@emilyislame5078 Not every main male character and main female character need to be a couple in a show. They worked better as just friends and the writers handled that perfectly. And even if they did start becoming a couple, it would've just felt very forced and would most likely be short lived, similar to Sam and Freddie. If anything, Andre getting together with Jade would've been so much better than with Tori.
@@JaxNovoa509 i was like 11 years old tho lol im an adult well over drinking age now lol i don’t think it’s that deep. but i see what u saying it’s just rlly not something to call someone lousy for, but that’s just my personal onion 🧅 lolol
The visual of Rex as "black" being controlled by a white performing was probably flagged as not a good look. This was a genuine concern and is even addressed in shows like West Wing, where Leo was concerned about the visual of Charlie "serving the President."
I hate Sam but what I hate more is the fact characters like Carly just sits back and watch as she is abusive to other characters. Why are these 2 best friends?
Carly's an enabler. Whenever Sam goes feral on someone, she just smiles and rolls her eyes as if her best friend's violent disposition is just a cute personality quirk. In any other show, that would be disturbing as all fuck.
Omg yes! Aside from Dan Schneiders creepiness, that's one of the worst things about the show. Carly let Sam get away with damn near everything. The only time she actually put her foot down was when Sam told Freddie's secret on the internet.
Carly sometimes uses Sam as her attack dog. 🙄
Because Sam is Carly's attack hound lol
Yeah Sam is a straight up bully
I loveee how everyone is ignoring the point talking about characters not even important in the video.
In glad someone else brought up. It’s annoys me this conversation topic always gets ignored.
I always thought that the whole rex thing was robbie trying to sound "cooler" (?) and "saying his true thoughts and opinions" but i think i gave this show too much credit...
You really did, and you also clearly don't have a fundamental understanding of AAVE. tell me you have no Black friends...
Aside from the controversy of Rex sounding “urban”. (They even called him an “urban puppet” in the show, which sounds like such a weird dog whistle), I feel like Robbie often used him to make a bunch of weird, creepy comments as well.
I'm a black woman who loved the Spice Girls, but always wondered why the only black girl in the group was named "Scary" Spice, just saying...🧐
I remember towards the end of Drake and Josh( the really big shrimp movie) Helen was getting married and her grandmother had to stay with deal and Josh’s family for some reason before the wedding. Looking at the character now, I think she was a precursor to how Andre’s grandmother character. An older black woman who is loud and is depicted as having some sort of mental illness but it’s played off as a joke.
sam was supposedly written to be black, so the fried chicken stereotype and aggressive would’ve been more noticeable;
edit: just got to this part in the video.
THANK UUUU SO MUCH NO ONE HAS SPOKE ABOUT THIS THE LITTLE GIRL IN SAME AND CAT “I didn’t throw nothing..” AND THEN WHEN ANDRE BROUGHT HIS COUSIN TO THAT REALITY SHOW- AND SHE WAS ACTING LIKE A STEREOTYPE.
i never understood why scary was used to drscribe her when the other girls got cute names
Y’all remember “The Girl’s Room” on The Amanda Show?
Yes
Not an example of antiblackness, but I swear Jade was giving racist vibes in the pilot. Because the way she (a white girl) saw a Tori (who’s brown) touch her boyfriend (also brown) in an innocent way and then proceeded to immediately force her to play as a dog and dump coffee all over her head in front of the whole class.
And I get they were trying to set up the conflict for the show but it was lowkey triggering because I’ve seen white girls attempt to viciously humiliate brown and black girls over the tiniest perceived slight so many times and hate us for all eternity, but they have no problem getting with our men.
One interesting thing I found about that scenario and Tori's depiction in general is that at times they wanted to treat her as brown or mixed and other times as another White girl depending on the episode and who she's talking to. I always wondered if this was related to Victoria Justice looking less "ethnic" as she got older.
I don’t think that’s a race thing. At least in the show. Jade acted that way about Beck the entire show. The tiniest things would make this chick overreact.
Honestly Jade getting her karma at the end was nice to see. Partly because her fanbase annoys the shit out of me.
y'all forget that Victoria's IRL mom is a white Puerto Rican woman. Latin American is not a race and does not automatically make you "brown." she's of white Spanish descent from her mom's side and white English, Irish, German from her dad's side. so any attempts to make her more "ethnic" were misguided and racist, trying to homogenize Latin Americans into one "brown" race when it's a regional group of people of any race.
@@sunnyblossom_711 I’m not using brown interchangeably with Latin American. I grew up with hella Puerto Ricans and plenty of them were white. Her mom ain’t one of them. She’s more what they call “trigueño” or someone who’s mixed Indigenous, European, and African and isn’t as heavily one or the other. You can tell she has Spanish blood but she favors Indigenous features more so looks wise compared to a lot of Boricuas I’ve seen.
My friend and I (she is black and I'm Latino) went through what you're describing about these two girls when we were both back in high school. Looking back, I wished both of us could've seen right through those toxic white girls who viewed us as nothing but threats and pests.
Now I knew there was a reason why I never really shipped Bade nor am I fond of that ship in the first place. I thought I could ship Jori instead for the sake of sapphic representation, but after what you just said, there is no way I can pair up Tori with a white girl who showed her microaggression racism in her own way. So yeah, Tori x Andre for me only.
U cooked with this video. Put everything I've been thinking into words. Subscribed right away 🔥🔥🔥
LET HIM COOK 🗣🔥🔥🔥
jennette(very reasonably) did not want to come back to do the reboot of icarly. of course, carly needs a new best friend so they added a character (idk her name coz i haven't watched it) who happens to be black. i saw a short of a scene with her and carly and as i was reading the comments i came across one like this "its so ridiculous to see that black girl try to replace sam as much as possible, she's not the same" smth like that, and it was so annoying because sam's whole personality is that of a stereotypical black woman, like she even does a "stereotypical black accent" sometimes in sam and cat.
can you provide specific examples of sam doing a “black accent” in the show? because i watched every episode religiously and never saw that.
@@pabloescobarschanclas of course i don't mean a full on black accent, that would've been too controversial, but sometimes her intonation sounds uncannily like that of a black person's and its clear that that is not how she usually speaks. (and its done when she is joking in order to make the scene funnier) i don't really note down every example i see so idk what to tell you
@@yoyomintzz7657 i’ve been thinking back through the episodes since i read this comment because it’s been kind of eating at me. the closest thing to what you’re talking about that i can think of is sam referring to herself in third person sometimes as mama. like for example, she’d be like “mama loves her fat cakes” (fat cakes referring to those pink packaged pastries in the show that sam packed with her to go to japan.) is that kind of what you’re thinking of?
"Stereotypical black accent"
@@khirrah4073 oh thank you, good point, i should change that on my comment
As someone who grew up in poverty, I just saw Sam as a stereotype for "trailer trash" (I do not think that's an appropriate way to label people, I'm just using the name for a point). I saw her as angry about her lot in life, aggressive as a defense, and always hungry because she's broke. That was realistic and unfortunately probably relatable for many viewers. That episode where she had to pay everyone back made me really uncomfortable because it was clear, to me at least, that she was doing everything she could by herself to make the money. The people she borrowed from were either old enough to have their own jobs or they got it from their parents. I could feel her despair and I hated how it was played for laughs. She's a kid and kids don't fully understand how to handle money. Yes, she shouldn't have taken all of that money, but again, she has no one to really take care of her that could give her an allowance. I didn't associate her back then with the black community but I get where you're coming from. The stereotype of "trailer trash" isn't exclusive to one race, but when I hear the term, I first think of a white person in poverty. Sam is being made fun of for her situation by the showrunners, so that makes me think more that she fits that stereotype more. I think making her any other race would be deemed offensive even though laughing at people in poverty and broken homes is already in poor taste. I do see parallels between the "trailer trash" and black stereotypes used, especially in the sitcoms produced by Nick. I just think Sam fits more into the former. I fully agree that Rex is a stereotypical black person. I remember watching Victorious wondering if it's okay for him to act/talk like that and also wondering if I was racist for making that connection. Of course I don't think black people behave the way Rex does, I think he's a caricature and a possible reference to minstrels. That also made me uncomfortable and I wondered how that was given the okay. They didn't make Andre into a loud, weird, "urban" character, so why is this light skinned puppet who is controlled by a nonblack character like this? Was this to show Robbie's internalized racism? Was it supposed to be funny? I'm curious to see what the actors thought of Rex because I can't remember ever liking or laughing at him.
That's what I was thinking. When the stereotype is put onto a white character, doesn't that make them white trash instead?
I think is always important to take a look at the media that we consume with a critic eye and question it, thanks for this video!
This also reminds me about his views on black women reflects his wife’s views too. Between her and Patti LaBelle on the Tyra Banks show. Talking to Ms LaBelle like she was a kid and being disrespectful.
“That’s why stereotypes are so powerful: Once we make the association in our minds about where this character belongs and who they are, they kind of always stay there-even if there’s new information to challenge this idea.” (7:50-8:02)
So well said!
That scene when Sam went off, that was lit 🔥
Hey my friend I’m hard of hearing can you please put captions on this video?
Hey! Will do, going forward I’ll try to make sure all videos have CCs
@@Tronn9672thank you so much my friend
I too also have a difficult time hearing and my parents are deaf it is nice knowing there are more people like me out there
Thank you!
@@CodeNameAlison Hey subtitles have now been added! Hope you enjoy the video!
2mins in and I have to pause to say this is such a fascinating story about the Spice Girls and an excellent way to start the video, I'm hooked in and my mind is blown already