Lantana in India is a whole other story. Massive detrimental impact on natives - nothing else grows under it. I agree with you point about judging a a species based on impact rather than origin for novel ecosystems. But also be careful. The plant has enormous genetic plasticity, and if you have a very dry year or some extreme event it could suddenly take over completely.
Why not just do what Geoff did and plant overstorey trees in the lantana that will eventually completely shade and kill it? I don't see how lantana can take over when it is dense shade?
Has anyone ever worked with Japanese honeysuckle. I recently moved to Missouri. Here it is classed as invasive and the department of conservation recommends land owners to remove it. I have a small wooded area around a catch pool that a want to create a food forest. The honeysuckle had grown up into the trees, mulberry and oak but others I haven’t identified yet. Rather than destroying the honeysuckle I pollard it and use it as mulch, I do not let it flower though. When I first started there were trees that were looking un healthy and honeysuckle with bare earth beneath. I have sown a cover crop, a mix or edible greens that will germinate early this spring. I am not sure if this is the right thing to do.
I was just literally talking to a customer today about her Lantana and how it's a weed but a pioneering plant and I love it. Told her that it's really hardy and great for green mulch as I chop that stuff back and it grows right back and I get nice green mulch to add to compost or just chop and drop. Here in the AZ desert, I like Lantana as a shady ground type cover that provides protection to animals, predators, and pollen for bees and other plants nearby.... and it looks pretty. It's an excellent mulch for all my trees and my pioneering legume trees.
"...all this "weed" issue and prejudice; assumptions and feeling that you've come with some kind of privileges that have to be native and endemic only. Entitlements to make judgements just restrict your ability to observe and design in a way that works with nature but also provide what we need with least effort and maximum return." -Sensei Geoff Lawton
Helpful video, thank you. Lantana grows like a weed here and you've given me more ideas and options. I like it quite well using it in feature pots and find it's many colors quite pretty. Gloves and long sleeves are a necessity when working with it I've found. I live in the Sonoran Desert in Tucson, AZ.
yes, it is a predujice. We can only know what has been 'endemic' within a certain period of time. To rip out plants based on them being native or not is damaging to soils and the fauna that rely on those plants. Native birds don't seem to mind where the plant originated from, just as we don't seem to mind where our vegetables originated from. Why do humans think they have to fix everything?
It's Old Sleningford Farm and there's a video called Rachel's Forest Garden, here: www.discoverpermaculture.com/products/the-permaculture-circle/categories/182758/posts/2197347
The only topic that I dissagree with, is that invasive species are good. I understand that nature adapts, but if one invasive species is so "agressive" in the way it spreads, it can make other local species extinct. And then we have not gained anything at all. We gained one species, but lost in biodiversity. I see that as something negativ. Many invasive species also carries deseases that the local species are defensless against.So, I ask you to please be carefull with introdusing other species into your area. (Sorry about my bad English).
Ah Tim low has an interesting view on it for sure I am reading feral future at the moment and a new nature was next on my to read list , his book on bushfoods is amazing . Thank you Jeff for sharing.
Geoff, YOU MISS THE POINT, the so-called diversity of invasives is NOT ECOSYSTEM DIVERSITY, it's a bunch of wood and leaves that APPEAR AS PLASTIC to the local insects, which they're not adapted to eat, so A STAND OF INVASIVES BECOMES A BIOLOGICAL DESERT. MY DIRECT OBSERVATION, OVER 20 YEARS IN SOUTH AFRICA, ONE OF THE MOST DIVERSE PLANT KINGDOMS ON EARTH, IS THAT INVASIVES KILL LOCAL ECOSYSTEMS. DEAD.
I was delighted to read 'The New Wild' by Fred Pearce. I have therein read countless examples that contradict what you are saying, Krag Lohry. Organisms are opportunistic, the notion of a static 'climax ecosystem' is a misreading of Darwin's theory of co-evolution. Many people are stuck with the dogma that, Natives are good, and Aliens are bad. This prejudice often catalyzes 'research' on a subject, so people are looking only for negative examples of what lantana does and omitting the positives. This is bias. Conservationists are trying to cling to an image of how nature was at a fundamentally arbitrary period in time. Why should we preserve nature how it was 50 years ago? Why that time period? Is Nature not allowed to demonstrate her evolution? Putting nature in a straight jacket. And....it's all at the core, futile. Why should we waste effort fighting a losing battle. We should embrace novel ecosystems, and work with them, understand the principles of Nature. Thus embracing the essence of Permaculture.
@@braidenforest-weaver4274 Thanks, I'm interested in getting the book but I believe the context of having SO MANY SPECIES/NICHES IN SOUTH AFRICA on poor soils makes it impossible to react/compete with rampant foreign pioneers/colonizers. Any person familiar with the bush here will tell you the exact same thing - A STAND OF INVASIVES IS DEVOID OF ACTIVITY. Contact expert Iain Paterson at Rhodes University I.Paterson@ru.ac.za
@@kraglohry109 agreed Krag. I'm also in SA and Lantana is rampant here in Kyalami area and I believe highly toxic to cattle if they graze on it. So indiscriminate dispersal by birds is not a good thing.
@@carlyblankevoort3856 invasives are a MAJOR BLINDSPOT in the permaculture ethic. Few justifications for fostering them - Nitrogen Fixing, Timber... I admin on the FB group - Port Elizabeth Permaculture - join us!
@@kraglohry109 ah, PE. Are you practising Perms down there? I have a tract of land near Kleinemonde I'd like to use as such. Still need to study Perma though. It has been said invasive globally will strangle out the indigenous plants. Management is a FULL time business for those who care. I'll check out the site, thank you. Take care
Least amount of effort, with the maximum amount of return. That's the key, and paramount reason for working with weeds. The more effort you put into controlling them, the more effort becomes your responsiblity to fill the niche they occupied. Otherwise, it will just be another weed, that does it.
I have always disagreed with Geoff's position on invasive species. ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY DON'T PRODUCE HUMAN FOOD. Invasives usually have an unfair advantage - no predators. Without plant specific bio-control (bugs or fungus), promoting invasives is, IMO, is unethical.
Same here, but I think, and what he keeps pointing out, are just the non-natives vs natives. For someone with his kind of understanding of ecology this is not a problem. But there are lots of people hearing this and understanding it as if "invasiveness" is not a problem. When you pay close attention Geoff does say this is a problem because you have to understand nature and design around it, so known invasive species in a region, known to suppress local biodiversity, are thus not non-natives that can be applied within a permaculture design.......
@@Pieter_Meert I am in fully agreement with growing body of scientists who now have all the proof needed that "Invasive species are the saviours of nature" and the promotion of the weed hype is totally false information in regard to diversity and ecological stability. The big chemical/pharmacy/weaponry companies have dumbed so many people down with the old emotional trickery. Last words of Hermann Goering "you can take the people to war any time and it works every time just tell them there is an enemy and they are under attack and denounce the peace makers as non patriotic".
@@geofflawton3198 I know the literature you are referring to because 2 years ago, when writing my masters thesis on the effect of 2 invasive species (non native invasive species, not native species that portray invasive behaviour) on the ecosystem they invaded, I included that point of view in my literature study. It is a fair point to say that their could be some benefits (producing good flowers for pollinators) to invasive species, but generally they have a negative effect on native biodiversity. Therefore it has to be specified that "new nature" point of views really depend on the setting you are focussing on. But to say that the extermination of native diversity always is a good thing goes a bit to far in my opinion......therefore known invasive species do have to be implemented with care. Maybe you could do another Q&A specifically on the theme of effects of invasive species to native biodiversity. Because native "weeds" are a whole other concept......otherwise, please keep up your wonderful advise! I really enjoy your videos
@Elizar Tringov Come to South Africa and see the devastation of habitat. You are seriously confused. Fostering invasives that have no practical purpose is unethical.
Lantana is pretty, but I think it stinks -- I call it: eau de diseased mint.😏 I guess one man's weed is another man's beloved plant. Why do some people love spotted spurge? I HATE it! I want to purge the scourge of spurge in my garden. 😠 I prefer clover to spurge.
I hear you, my neighbor plants spread to my garden but I rent so I haven’t bothered to pull it out and now it’s 6mth old and 2m x 2m bastard of a plant and the smell is comparable to cat piss 😂
Geoff Lawton I get its benefits Geoff it’s just an annoying plant to have in the garden, on another note I’m making an arboretum, I’m heavily planting a few hundred trees for bees some eucalyptus and Hakea and many more, it’s in semi arid Australia but it’s irrigated can you recommend a ground cover that’ll grow under the eucalyptus?
@@geofflawton3198 very true. As of my current understanding, the natural purpose of spotted spurge seems to be to annoy me. At least I can feed dandelions and clover to my chickens, but spurge? --nope.😑
I have always disagreed with Geoff's position on invasive species. ESPECIALLY SPECIES THAT DON'T PRODUCE HUMAN FOOD. Invasives usually have an unfair advantage - no predators. Without plant specific bio-control (bugs or fungus), promoting invasives is, IMO, is totally unethical.
@@geofflawton3198 Everything has its place. We humans scrambled the earth's species but didn't install the entire ecosystem that keeps those species in check. As a mouthpeice for permaculture, I encourage you to re-think your position on this matter. I've been in South Africa for 20 yrs and the devastation from mostly Australian species is ... scary. And so few ppl care.
@@kraglohry109 The game is over for big chemical/pharmacy and we have the proof if you count the invasive species everywhere on earth is more diverse than ever in life's history. It is great to hear from you and I am sure you can relate to your history and none African past : ) that now cares for Africa.
I could watch this forever.
Thank you.
So much green!!!! We're surrounded by dry and brown. Thanks for the info Geoff.
In Antigua, we use the West Indian lantana camara (locals refer to it as sage) as a tea. It is usually blended with lemon grass.
I have a tape of Bill from 1979 giving a talk at the organic convention mentioning how useful wild tobacco plant leaves are for toilet paper.
There is also video of Bill talking about using chokoes to remove lantana by choking it out
Lantana in India is a whole other story. Massive detrimental impact on natives - nothing else grows under it. I agree with you point about judging a a species based on impact rather than origin for novel ecosystems. But also be careful. The plant has enormous genetic plasticity, and if you have a very dry year or some extreme event it could suddenly take over completely.
Why not just do what Geoff did and plant overstorey trees in the lantana that will eventually completely shade and kill it? I don't see how lantana can take over when it is dense shade?
Thanks for the book recommendation... I looked it up on Amazon, it's actually The New Wild Fred Pearce. Adding it to my permaculture book list!
Has anyone ever worked with Japanese honeysuckle. I recently moved to Missouri. Here it is classed as invasive and the department of conservation recommends land owners to remove it. I have a small wooded area around a catch pool that a want to create a food forest. The honeysuckle had grown up into the trees, mulberry and oak but others I haven’t identified yet. Rather than destroying the honeysuckle I pollard it and use it as mulch, I do not let it flower though. When I first started there were trees that were looking un healthy and honeysuckle with bare earth beneath. I have sown a cover crop, a mix or edible greens that will germinate early this spring. I am not sure if this is the right thing to do.
very foolish, the thing is damaging to the native environment and as you say will kill the trees and take over
cheers geoff
I was just literally talking to a customer today about her Lantana and how it's a weed but a pioneering plant and I love it.
Told her that it's really hardy and great for green mulch as I chop that stuff back and it grows right back and I get nice green mulch to add to compost or just chop and drop.
Here in the AZ desert, I like Lantana as a shady ground type cover that provides protection to animals, predators, and pollen for bees and other plants nearby.... and it looks pretty. It's an excellent mulch for all my trees and my pioneering legume trees.
"...all this "weed" issue and prejudice; assumptions and feeling that you've come with some kind of privileges that have to be native and endemic only.
Entitlements to make judgements just restrict your ability to observe and design in a way that works with nature but also provide what we need with least effort and maximum return."
-Sensei Geoff Lawton
Helpful video, thank you. Lantana grows like a weed here and you've given me more ideas and options. I like it quite well using it in feature pots and find it's many colors quite pretty. Gloves and long sleeves are a necessity when working with it I've found. I live in the Sonoran Desert in Tucson, AZ.
I wish I had seen this video last week. Just planted about 20 lantanas in flower beds next to the house. I would have used them elsewhere had I known.
Brilliant. Fred Pearce is a genius.
yes, it is a predujice. We can only know what has been 'endemic' within a certain period of time. To rip out plants based on them being native or not is damaging to soils and the fauna that rely on those plants. Native birds don't seem to mind where the plant originated from, just as we don't seem to mind where our vegetables originated from. Why do humans think they have to fix everything?
Could you give a link for that Yorkshire farm you mentioned in this video?
It's Old Sleningford Farm and there's a video called Rachel's Forest Garden, here: www.discoverpermaculture.com/products/the-permaculture-circle/categories/182758/posts/2197347
The lantana in Florida is very deep rooted. But it brings all kinds of pollinators. Someone called it Texas Lantana. I just stick with that.
The only topic that I dissagree with, is that invasive species are good. I understand that nature adapts, but if one invasive species is so "agressive" in the way it spreads, it can make other local species extinct. And then we have not gained anything at all. We gained one species, but lost in biodiversity. I see that as something negativ. Many invasive species also carries deseases that the local species are defensless against.So, I ask you to please be carefull with introdusing other species into your area. (Sorry about my bad English).
That book by Fred Pearce, is it called ‘The new wild’? I couldn’t find one called ‘New Nature’
Pretty sure that’s the book he meant he has mentioned it in other videos
www.dymocks.com.au/book/the-new-nature-by-tim-low-9780143783633?gclid=Cj0KCQjwhdTqBRDNARIsABsOl9_x-LpzLW9_mv3WeRXqWd9dFaiVjPGGtuPae4cysf_RyduevW_G1AcaAhT4EALw_wcB
Ah Tim low has an interesting view on it for sure I am reading feral future at the moment and a new nature was next on my to read list , his book on bushfoods is amazing . Thank you Jeff for sharing.
Geoff, YOU MISS THE POINT, the so-called diversity of invasives is NOT ECOSYSTEM DIVERSITY, it's a bunch of wood and leaves that APPEAR AS PLASTIC to the local insects, which they're not adapted to eat, so A STAND OF INVASIVES BECOMES A BIOLOGICAL DESERT. MY DIRECT OBSERVATION, OVER 20 YEARS IN SOUTH AFRICA, ONE OF THE MOST DIVERSE PLANT KINGDOMS ON EARTH, IS THAT INVASIVES KILL LOCAL ECOSYSTEMS. DEAD.
I was delighted to read 'The New Wild' by Fred Pearce. I have therein read countless examples that contradict what you are saying, Krag Lohry. Organisms are opportunistic, the notion of a static 'climax ecosystem' is a misreading of Darwin's theory of co-evolution.
Many people are stuck with the dogma that, Natives are good, and Aliens are bad. This prejudice often catalyzes 'research' on a subject, so people are looking only for negative examples of what lantana does and omitting the positives. This is bias.
Conservationists are trying to cling to an image of how nature was at a fundamentally arbitrary period in time. Why should we preserve nature how it was 50 years ago? Why that time period? Is Nature not allowed to demonstrate her evolution? Putting nature in a straight jacket. And....it's all at the core, futile. Why should we waste effort fighting a losing battle. We should embrace novel ecosystems, and work with them, understand the principles of Nature. Thus embracing the essence of Permaculture.
@@braidenforest-weaver4274 Thanks, I'm interested in getting the book but I believe the context of having SO MANY SPECIES/NICHES IN SOUTH AFRICA on poor soils makes it impossible to react/compete with rampant foreign pioneers/colonizers. Any person familiar with the bush here will tell you the exact same thing - A STAND OF INVASIVES IS DEVOID OF ACTIVITY. Contact expert Iain Paterson at Rhodes University I.Paterson@ru.ac.za
@@kraglohry109 agreed Krag. I'm also in SA and Lantana is rampant here in Kyalami area and I believe highly toxic to cattle if they graze on it. So indiscriminate dispersal by birds is not a good thing.
@@carlyblankevoort3856 invasives are a MAJOR BLINDSPOT in the permaculture ethic. Few justifications for fostering them - Nitrogen Fixing, Timber... I admin on the FB group - Port Elizabeth Permaculture - join us!
@@kraglohry109 ah, PE. Are you practising Perms down there? I have a tract of land near Kleinemonde I'd like to use as such. Still need to study Perma though. It has been said invasive globally will strangle out the indigenous plants. Management is a FULL time business for those who care. I'll check out the site, thank you. Take care
Least amount of effort, with the maximum amount of return. That's the key, and paramount reason for working with weeds. The more effort you put into controlling them, the more effort becomes your responsiblity to fill the niche they occupied. Otherwise, it will just be another weed, that does it.
I have always disagreed with Geoff's position on invasive species. ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY DON'T PRODUCE HUMAN FOOD. Invasives usually have an unfair advantage - no predators. Without plant specific bio-control (bugs or fungus), promoting invasives is, IMO, is unethical.
Same here, but I think, and what he keeps pointing out, are just the non-natives vs natives. For someone with his kind of understanding of ecology this is not a problem. But there are lots of people hearing this and understanding it as if "invasiveness" is not a problem. When you pay close attention Geoff does say this is a problem because you have to understand nature and design around it, so known invasive species in a region, known to suppress local biodiversity, are thus not non-natives that can be applied within a permaculture design.......
@@Pieter_Meert I am in fully agreement with growing body of scientists who now have all the proof needed that "Invasive species are the saviours of nature" and the promotion of the weed hype is totally false information in regard to diversity and ecological stability.
The big chemical/pharmacy/weaponry companies have dumbed so many people down with the old emotional trickery. Last words of Hermann Goering "you can take the people to war any time and it works every time just tell them there is an enemy and they are under attack and denounce the peace makers as non patriotic".
@@geofflawton3198 I know the literature you are referring to because 2 years ago, when writing my masters thesis on the effect of 2 invasive species (non native invasive species, not native species that portray invasive behaviour) on the ecosystem they invaded, I included that point of view in my literature study. It is a fair point to say that their could be some benefits (producing good flowers for pollinators) to invasive species, but generally they have a negative effect on native biodiversity. Therefore it has to be specified that "new nature" point of views really depend on the setting you are focussing on. But to say that the extermination of native diversity always is a good thing goes a bit to far in my opinion......therefore known invasive species do have to be implemented with care. Maybe you could do another Q&A specifically on the theme of effects of invasive species to native biodiversity. Because native "weeds" are a whole other concept......otherwise, please keep up your wonderful advise! I really enjoy your videos
@Elizar Tringov Come to South Africa and see the devastation of habitat. You are seriously confused. Fostering invasives that have no practical purpose is unethical.
👁ronically, some one or some"thing" has posted this very same comment... A.👁. Bots
Lantana is pretty, but I think it stinks -- I call it: eau de diseased mint.😏 I guess one man's weed is another man's beloved plant. Why do some people love spotted spurge? I HATE it! I want to purge the scourge of spurge in my garden. 😠 I prefer clover to spurge.
I hear you, my neighbor plants spread to my garden but I rent so I haven’t bothered to pull it out and now it’s 6mth old and 2m x 2m bastard of a plant and the smell is comparable to cat piss 😂
@@BESHYSBEESLol...😂 Pepé le pew!
Anything you hate in the natural world haunt you forever until you come to an understanding of its function.
Geoff Lawton I get its benefits Geoff it’s just an annoying plant to have in the garden, on another note I’m making an arboretum, I’m heavily planting a few hundred trees for bees some eucalyptus and Hakea and many more, it’s in semi arid Australia but it’s irrigated can you recommend a ground cover that’ll grow under the eucalyptus?
@@geofflawton3198 very true. As of my current understanding, the natural purpose of spotted spurge seems to be to annoy me. At least I can feed dandelions and clover to my chickens, but spurge? --nope.😑
I have always disagreed with Geoff's position on invasive species. ESPECIALLY SPECIES THAT DON'T PRODUCE HUMAN FOOD. Invasives usually have an unfair advantage - no predators. Without plant specific bio-control (bugs or fungus), promoting invasives is, IMO, is totally unethical.
Just relate that to people. Anything you hate in the natural world haunt you forever until you come to an understanding of its function.
@@geofflawton3198 Everything has its place. We humans scrambled the earth's species but didn't install the entire ecosystem that keeps those species in check. As a mouthpeice for permaculture, I encourage you to re-think your position on this matter. I've been in South Africa for 20 yrs and the devastation from mostly Australian species is ... scary. And so few ppl care.
@@kraglohry109 The game is over for big chemical/pharmacy and we have the proof if you count the invasive species everywhere on earth is more diverse than ever in life's history. It is great to hear from you and I am sure you can relate to your history and none African past : ) that now cares for Africa.