+Funny Farmer I know. Considering this was made during one of the most important eras in Mexico's history. One would think it would be in a museum. But, it's more likely a forgotten weapon indeed. It worries me to see such this being in a private collection, but I'm grateful Ian got to make a video of it for prosterity.
It's still used by the Mexican honor guard and I'm sure historic museums in Mexico feature it. In fact, I think I recall a certain Mexico City museum displaying it.
As a machinist for 27+ years, I almost choked as you casually described the bolt as "simple", especially for being made over 100 years before CNC machines. I can't imagine trying to mass produce such parts with that technology. Amazing! Thanks for the great videos!!!
Ian, how the HELL do you guys get a serial number 1 Mondragón 1894 and a serial number 1 Mondragón 1908??? Dude I mean, WTF?!!! You guys rock. These two rifles should be in a Museum here in my beloved México haha, a proof that there was a time when México was awesome at innovation in firearm designing.
These two weapons are in the United States because they were sold buy a corrupt politician to a private collector. He was probably the father or grandfather of one of the corrupt politicians that are running your beloved Mexico and have sold it to the cartels. Just like they are selling out the rest of Mexico for whatever they can get to line their pockets
One of my favorite things about these videos is seeing a design from the 19th century that looks so similar to what we still use today. It's amazing how the bolt face / firing pin area looks so similar to an AR15 and even the idea of the rotating bolt, etc… are all still seeing use. I find it so amazing that the engineers from this era were producing such quality designs that many of the ideas have carried over in to today's modern weapons. Thanks for all your effort on these Ian, it's really educational and fun.
Looks like they learned their lesson on the shotguns end of the Spanish-American war lol. I bet they saw the 1897 and they probably said, “dat. Put dat into a rifle, so farther pulverization ablility!” Or they designed it without thought like with all other bolt-actions
About the automatic/slam fire setting. I think it might serve another purpose than suppressive fire. It might be intended for trench clearing and near-bayonet combat. I imagine it wouldn't be difficult to keep the rifle shouldered with your support arm, and using your firing arm to cycle the weapon rapidly when an enemy is close to you. This would be more controllable than hipfire, and much faster to put rounds on target than cycling a standard bolt action, moving your finger to the trigger and firing. It removes a step in the process of firing, which simplifies close combat. I imagine it would be a bad idea trying to suppress an enemy trench with inaccurate hipfire, and forcing your men to fiddle with reloading their magazines in the middle of an advance. In such a situation the feature is meaningless. In other words, say you come around a bend in the trenchline and meet an enemy. He must both cycle the bolt and pull the trigger. You only need to cycle the bolt rapidly.
There was some trench-style warfare in the American Civil War, but it was not all that common in 19th century European wars. Trenches could have saved the French army from constantly getting massacred by Prussian artillery in the Franco-Prussian War.
Joseph K. You have to remember this is 1894 and no-one would have probably imagined what mass scale trench combat would be. Still an interesting idea though.
Another use maybe to utilize it as an aimed "sweep:" how far back does the bolt travel? With my Ross mk3, I can safely witness my sight picture while chambering a second round on target; although trenches may not have been envisioned, I imagine rocks and fortified locations offering ample cover to meticulously cycle from the next target at leisure. As Ian had said, the handguard is flimsy, making me believe it acted in in a similar role that a blunder buss performed as a deck gun on ships: not necessarily mobile, but not required to perform any role that would see it rendered useless in an attrition not meant for its presence. Picking apart unsuspecting columns and waves of attackers would be its niche role. Looking at how far the bolt travels, I doubt one could safely load and fire at will. Perhaps, it was slowly moved forward to allow the shooter to reacquaint his sight picture prior to fully firing the action. In this way, it would still eliminate the need to drop the hand to the trigger, and hasten the delay normally required to sight and fire repeatedly. ...But this is simply conjecture. An experiment would be required to see what roles this rifle would exceed at. Hopefully there is a bastardized example somewhere for Forgotten Weapons can work its magic~
deadpan237 Because that's not really how designing military firearms has ever worked. The only time anyone puts a "whatever" in a weapon is because they're copying someone else's successfull design & don't really understand why the "whatever" was put there originally, even if it no longer serves any meaningful purpose.
Ian my God I’ve never made a comment on your videos and I’ve watched so many of them. You do the most excellent work and it’s so interesting hearing about all these different guns. I am now 61 I started working at a sporting good store when I was 10 years old sweeping the floors😊 And then moved into sales I was such a sponge. Great work for sure
Hi, Ian. Still cruisin' through the 'History' part of your site. 2015 being the year. And I find another great forgotten weapon. This is what this channel is all about. This rifle was like a gem among the cobbles. So many of the historical weapons, as well as many modern weapons, are developmental steps from previous designs. Of course, this is not a totally new rifle, but it has so many unique aspects, such as woodworking, that I really appreciated its design. If I was a collector and had the opportunity, this would be in my collection. It would be fun to walk toward the target slinging bolt fired rounds down range 'automatically', probably to a marching song. Thanks for sharing! Stay healthy!
The simplicity (the action, ease of field stripping) and seeming strength (double locking lugs) of this design is really great. The designer should be getting more credit than he does. A couple small improvements (more robust and easier-to-manufacture stock, change to a fixed front sight, and ditching the slam fire mode) could have seemingly made this rifle a worthy adversary to the Mauser for military rifles.
The only reason he doesn’t get more credit is the nation it was made for and how many were made. There were small amount of these rifles made along with his semi-auto rifle and Mexico was not only a minor power but also quite chaotic at this time. It’s unfortunate but the truth. If he moved to the US and got this and his semi-auto accepted for US service he might be as famous as John Browning and Paul Mauser.
Thanks Ian. That is a very interesting rifle design. I have seen Mondragon automatic rifles but have never really dedicated any time to them. After seening the excellent design of this rifle I think I will take another look at the semi-auto design. Thanks again.
Great video again my friend. Your videos teach me so much about guns. Its so nice to be able to watch gun videos on UA-cam that isn't some guy shooting an M4 at a sheet of paper.
That is one of the smoothest straight-pulls I have ever seen. And, 1894!??!!?? And Mexico!?? Getting help from the Swiss doesn't surprise me, but the fact that Mexico and not a German state fielding this is probably the most surprising thing. A good designer from Mexico doesn't surprise me though, all humans have the same brain and we are a resourceful and imaginative bunch when faced with a problem. I would actually be surprised if I didn't find creative inventors in every place on the earth.
Forgotten Weapons Thanks for highlighting this fascinating and remarkably advanced (for its time) firearm. I look forward to your videos. I am never sure what i might learn or be amazed/ammused by. Keep up the good work!
I suppose the automatic feature would have been proven quite useful if someone was found in a very close range encounter, but they'd need time to actually switch it over to the automatic fire mode. There are still some moments when you'd think it could possibly save someone's life.
And you have to remember that the rifle was designed when assaults with massed ranks of infantry were still considered tactically viable. Pouring fire at close range before engaging with the bayonet was probably the intent behind the automatic setting.
Man that is a cool looking rifle, I love it! Everything i've seen designed by Mondragon is so cool looking and interesting. Really neat features and its essentially a Swiss gun. Love that straight-pull!
I think ALR describe the status of the bolt when this ALR-handle is engaged in it´s various modes: A = Aufschliessend (german for repeating / unlocking) aufschliessend means that something has to come next in line in order to move on a certain operation or action. I think this means the repeating cartrige, one is coming after another one till the mag is empty. L = Lose (german for loose) the bolt is loose from the mechanism and cannot be cycled (e.g. safe) R = Ruhend (german for resting) the bolt is resting in semi-auto mode, ready to manually be cycled. Or the bolt snaps back for semi-auto mode resting, ready to shoot again. (these all are just guesses. I have no experience with this rifle)
Cartridge for the model 1893 is the mondragon 6.5x48 the mag was originally designed to hold 8 rounds, or rather the pre-production prototype rifles were.
The automatic feature was probably intended for a walking-fire type of infantry advance - something obviously outdated today, but immensely popular back in the early 1900s. The French Chauchat, British Lewis Gun, and American BAR were all designed with that in mind. Having the infantryman being able to do that as well would have been rather nice.
The walking fire you're thinking of as an infantry tactic came about 20 years after this rifle was developed. Examples of the use of defensive field works in 19th century warfare were significant more for their rarity, despite being completely practical.
ostiariusalpha I agree 1890 - 1910 were the golden years of fire arm development with many of the basic designs still used today. Straight pulls we simply a faster more efficient way to operate a rifle.
There was a 5.2mm Mondragon cartridge, with a very sharp shoulder, a long bullet that was seated in a washer over the powder. A collectors' book "Guns of the World" and a 1967 Guns & Ammo article refer to this unique round, which may have been this Mexican issue caliber. The 6.5mm of your specimen may have been a different chambering, serial number 1, as you mentioned, a prototype. (BTW: I'm going off rote memory, pardon me if I'm off on a detail.)
old necro, yeah.. anyways wikipedia details that Mondragon invented his own cartridge which was initially 6.5mm and while it was being manufactured by the Swiss the cartridge was changed to 5
My first thought on the "automatic" position was of the Lee-Enfield and the practice of holding the bolt handle with the thumb and first two fingers while pulling the trigger with the last finger. I don't remember whether the British were training that "volley fire" technique at the 1895 introduction of the MLE, it seems like this Mondragon rifle could have been intended to provide the same capability more easily.
British soldiers were middle fingering their Lee-Enfields by 1914. But it was only taught officially from 1942. And only for rapid fire, during close quarters combat.
"Like it was something made by Century" I damn near pissed my pants laughing and trying to explain to my girlfriend why I was on the floor rolling.. good job! I needed that!
I reckon it could be quite accurate, the front & rear locking design should greatly reduce play in the bolt giving a more consistent bolt-face alignment. The offset nature of the lugs evenly spreads the locking force. That bolt could be the key to super-accurate long range snipers.
That action should be hellish strong with 2 sets of locking lugs, also the action seems smooth functioning and no way as with the Ross to misassemble the bolt
That automatic feature is actually pretty dope if you had a scope on it or a good line of sight you could just run the bolt and lay down a bunch of suppressing fire real quick
Now add just a gas tube and let the selector operate a disconnector and you got a pretty modern gun. Had Mondragon worked in the US he might have done many more designs and even without an early military adoption of them would have served the larger commercial market pretty well.
An interesting rifle to be sure. However I don't see much in the guns mechanism that would supply any initial camming power for primary extraction. I'm guessing all the primary extraction power resides in the shooters right bicep. It's never a problem unless you get a sticky case. Soft brass,battlefield dirt and a pressure jump fromm smoking hot barrels make this more likely. Still Senor Mondragon sounds like an interesting guy and I'm inspired to read more about him.
As a leftie, i really like the idea of taking out one step for cycling the gun, much more easy "probably less reliable but whatever" than the open, pull, push, lock of the mauser family like i needed to learn.
As for machining the locking lugs on the bolt, that would not be a terribly difficult thing to do... First, the machinist would turn the rings that would become the lugs to size on the lathe - probably after another machinist had bored out the blanks. Then, another machinist would take the intermediate blanks to the horizontal mill, and cut the slots through the rings to make the lugs, using and indexer to ensure even angular spacing. Since the lugs are out of phase between the front and back sets, that's two milling operations. In a modern shop, the whole thing could be done on a CNC lathe, but those obviously did not exist back then... ;^)
Mondragon also designed a Cannon to protect the ports from foreign attacks, he designed the Mondragon Cannon and sent the blueprints to Germany, where Krupp company made it and then imported it to protect the port of Salina Cruz. It proven to be very dangerous, and prevented an American secret invasion when the cannon successfully shot down a Tinclad. Later on the US done some treaty to prevent another war from unleashing, and one of the things americans wanted was removing Mondragon's Krupp Canon from Salina Cruz, so it was then sold to Turkey. He aslo designed the Saint Chamond-Mondragón, a light artillery piece to fight agains revolutionaires. When he was exiled the artillery design was trashed from Mexico, but it survived and Israeli troops used the design during 1948 arab-israaeli war. three of the artillery pieces survived the war and can be found at Batey ha-OSEF museum in Tel Aviv, other in Beit ha-Gdudim Museum and Moshav Avihayil.
Very interesting. Different means different, neither better or worse, simply not the same as something else. World wide plumbing or electrical plug ins are great examples.
I love hearing about the history of who and how a gun was made but I kinda would love to hear the over all history of where these guns have been and who owned them down thru history. I bet a lot of these guns have a very interesting history and stories.
Seems like the ram firing feature would be better on the defensive. Rest it on a low wall or using a bipod. You could more accurately lay down rapid fire.
Hi there Ian, I greatly appreciate your videos and I greatly appreciate your education. I have a request: Would you be able to do a video on Mexican Mauser Rifles? Kindest regards always, ~Keith Erickson
This is a fascinating rifle. It would be interesting to know more about it's history: why didn't a fine rifle like this become a commercial success? Also, I am gonna be a gunsmith in several years. and I am feeling that after I get enough experience, I will be making one for myself.
I think the "automatic" slam-fire mode would be useful during a snap shooting match*, presuming that a sight picture can be maintained while cycling the bolt. . * red circle targets 30cm in diameter which can only be shot at while they are "open" (facing the shooter), but not when closed (sideways, edge-on). I believe it was intended to simulate shooting at enemy heads that could suddenly appear over a trench lip. The match usually has the targets open for 4 seconds and then closed for 4 seconds, repeated 5 times.
Graeme Philips K31s are quite inexpensive, and very high quality. In addition, you can get match grade surplus GP11 for $0.50/round. In my opinion, they are the best kept secret of the WWII surplus world. I recently bought a K31 from Simpson LTD. $320 with shipping to my gun store.
No I'm not worried about it at all. I just had my K31 out doing some 700 yard shooting this morning, and getting reliable hits on a 10" gong at that distance. Like the article stated, some K31s made around 1944 were given operating rods made out of inferior steel. I am aware of this problem, and its safety implications. If I had a K31 that might have been affected then I would just replace the rod. Mine is a 1940 production K31 though, so it was made with the proper steel. In addition, the bolt throw of the K31 is very smooth. If anything breaks or you have to force it closed, you will definitely know that something is wrong. Being an alert and aware shooter will keep you safe in virtually all situations like this. They are super reliable, affordable, and accurate guns. And perfectly safe in my opinion. I would recommend a K31 to anybody who wants an affordable and high quality introduction to the milsurp market.
Ben Aguilar Aw, man, that actually sounds affordable... If only "hobbyist shooting" was reason enough to register a weapon in Poland... Instead you have to go through hoops and register into some hunting society or something to have a "legitimate" reason to have a gun... Damn it.
One of the coolest rifles reviewed lately. Seems like Mondragon was a solid weapon maker who was in the wrong country. I wonder if his designs would have prospered had he been in a location that could get better quality ammunition for his semi-auto designs?
Ian, no it is not complicated to machine the locking lugs on the bolt. You take stock material with outer diameter the same or greater as the outer diameter of the lugs, then you turn down the ends and the middle and then you cut with an endmill between the lugs, and of course you drill out the inner diameter. Simple...
It wasn't the bulk. The gun was *very* prone to jamming from grit and debris, which is unacceptable in a combat rifle. The Swiss Schmidt-Rubin straight pull rifle was much better enclosed and reliable.
For the same reason that none of the straight pull designs was widely adopted,the brass were apprehensive in having issues with the bolt locking after extented use,or in case the bolt handle is hit accidently
Bowman08 The Canadian Ross in 303 British is another example. Of these three examples the Swiss operates smooth, the Ross is nor too bad but the Steyr operation is ahh... to put it mildly rather clunky.
I suspect that 'auto' feature was intended for crowd suppression. Nobody was thinking in terms of World War 1 style 'over the top, no mans land crossing' suppressive fire.. but marching fire from the hip while advancing on crowds in a plaza... was probably a consideration.
This gun should really be in a museum. Serial number 1.. wow.
+Funny Farmer I know. Considering this was made during one of the most important eras in Mexico's history. One would think it would be in a museum. But, it's more likely a forgotten weapon indeed. It worries me to see such this being in a private collection, but I'm grateful Ian got to make a video of it for prosterity.
It's still used by the Mexican honor guard and I'm sure historic museums in Mexico feature it. In fact, I think I recall a certain Mexico City museum displaying it.
John F. Kennedy well that's great to hear. So it's not an issue then. Private collectors aren't too bad to have around either.
remember this class of rifle was working from WW1 to Vietnam , after that is in vacation o in development . thanks
SO DO YOU!
Mondragon has to be one of the most underrated gun makers.
Another great rifle as well as the semi auto version
As a machinist for 27+ years, I almost choked as you casually described the bolt as "simple", especially for being made over 100 years before CNC machines. I can't imagine trying to mass produce such parts with that technology. Amazing! Thanks for the great videos!!!
You haven't seen master machinist work from the last century ( 1800's).
You would be amazed at what pre computer mechanical marvels there are .
Ian, how the HELL do you guys get a serial number 1 Mondragón 1894 and a serial number 1 Mondragón 1908??? Dude I mean, WTF?!!! You guys rock. These two rifles should be in a Museum here in my beloved México haha, a proof that there was a time when México was awesome at innovation in firearm designing.
Indeed. A forgotten showdown of arms history. Along with Japan, they did a great deal as well
There are other mondragon designs that are fascinating and are beautifully made . Same for their variations of the Mauser .
These two weapons are in the United States because they were sold buy a corrupt politician to a private collector. He was probably the father or grandfather of one of the corrupt politicians that are running your beloved Mexico and have sold it to the cartels. Just like they are selling out the rest of Mexico for whatever they can get to line their pockets
just guessing
A=asegurado (safe)
R=rapidamente/rapido (fast)
L=lentamente (slow)
One of my favorite things about these videos is seeing a design from the 19th century that looks so similar to what we still use today. It's amazing how the bolt face / firing pin area looks so similar to an AR15 and even the idea of the rotating bolt, etc… are all still seeing use. I find it so amazing that the engineers from this era were producing such quality designs that many of the ideas have carried over in to today's modern weapons. Thanks for all your effort on these Ian, it's really educational and fun.
Interesting thought with the slam fire capability.
Looks like they learned their lesson on the shotguns end of the Spanish-American war lol. I bet they saw the 1897 and they probably said, “dat. Put dat into a rifle, so farther pulverization ablility!” Or they designed it without thought like with all other bolt-actions
"...front sight canted, like it was something made by Century" ahahahahahahaha
Roasts by Ian xD
@@Kacpa2 They should be honored.
Shots fired.
2:50, lmao
i like how he casually says "the serial number is one" that's.... kinda a big deal...
About the automatic/slam fire setting.
I think it might serve another purpose than suppressive fire.
It might be intended for trench clearing and near-bayonet combat.
I imagine it wouldn't be difficult to keep the rifle shouldered with your support arm, and using your firing arm to cycle the weapon rapidly when an enemy is close to you.
This would be more controllable than hipfire, and much faster to put rounds on target than cycling a standard bolt action, moving your finger to the trigger and firing.
It removes a step in the process of firing, which simplifies close combat.
I imagine it would be a bad idea trying to suppress an enemy trench with inaccurate hipfire, and forcing your men to fiddle with reloading their magazines in the middle of an advance. In such a situation the feature is meaningless.
In other words, say you come around a bend in the trenchline and meet an enemy. He must both cycle the bolt and pull the trigger. You only need to cycle the bolt rapidly.
There was some trench-style warfare in the American Civil War, but it was not all that common in 19th century European wars. Trenches could have saved the French army from constantly getting massacred by Prussian artillery in the Franco-Prussian War.
Joseph K. Interesting thought - I hadn't considered that.
Joseph K. You have to remember this is 1894 and no-one would have probably imagined what mass scale trench combat would be. Still an interesting idea though.
Another use maybe to utilize it as an aimed "sweep:" how far back does the bolt travel? With my Ross mk3, I can safely witness my sight picture while chambering a second round on target; although trenches may not have been envisioned, I imagine rocks and fortified locations offering ample cover to meticulously cycle from the next target at leisure.
As Ian had said, the handguard is flimsy, making me believe it acted in in a similar role that a blunder buss performed as a deck gun on ships: not necessarily mobile, but not required to perform any role that would see it rendered useless in an attrition not meant for its presence. Picking apart unsuspecting columns and waves of attackers would be its niche role.
Looking at how far the bolt travels, I doubt one could safely load and fire at will. Perhaps, it was slowly moved forward to allow the shooter to reacquaint his sight picture prior to fully firing the action. In this way, it would still eliminate the need to drop the hand to the trigger, and hasten the delay normally required to sight and fire repeatedly.
...But this is simply conjecture. An experiment would be required to see what roles this rifle would exceed at. Hopefully there is a bastardized example somewhere for Forgotten Weapons can work its magic~
deadpan237 Because that's not really how designing military firearms has ever worked. The only time anyone puts a "whatever" in a weapon is because they're copying someone else's successfull design & don't really understand why the "whatever" was put there originally, even if it no longer serves any meaningful purpose.
Mondragon was clearly ahead of his time!
Bolt action gun with "select" fire? How awesome and one of the kind.
Ian my God I’ve never made a comment on your videos and I’ve watched so many of them. You do the most excellent work and it’s so interesting hearing about all these different guns. I am now 61 I started working at a sporting good store when I was 10 years old sweeping the floors😊 And then moved into sales I was such a sponge. Great work for sure
"You don't want to reassemble this to discover that you've got the front sight canted, like it was something made by Century." HAHAHA. Made my day.
It reminds me of how Scotty Kilmer talks about Chrysler.
Hi, Ian. Still cruisin' through the 'History' part of your site. 2015 being the year. And I find another great forgotten weapon. This is what this channel is all about. This rifle was like a gem among the cobbles. So many of the historical weapons, as well as many modern weapons, are developmental steps from previous designs. Of course, this is not a totally new rifle, but it has so many unique aspects, such as woodworking, that I really appreciated its design. If I was a collector and had the opportunity, this would be in my collection. It would be fun to walk toward the target slinging bolt fired rounds down range 'automatically', probably to a marching song. Thanks for sharing! Stay healthy!
The simplicity (the action, ease of field stripping) and seeming strength (double locking lugs) of this design is really great. The designer should be getting more credit than he does. A couple small improvements (more robust and easier-to-manufacture stock, change to a fixed front sight, and ditching the slam fire mode) could have seemingly made this rifle a worthy adversary to the Mauser for military rifles.
The only reason he doesn’t get more credit is the nation it was made for and how many were made. There were small amount of these rifles made along with his semi-auto rifle and Mexico was not only a minor power but also quite chaotic at this time. It’s unfortunate but the truth.
If he moved to the US and got this and his semi-auto accepted for US service he might be as famous as John Browning and Paul Mauser.
Rear sight leaf and camming bolt shroud are like my K31. Glad I watched this.
Thanks Ian. That is a very interesting rifle design. I have seen Mondragon automatic rifles but have never really dedicated any time to them. After seening the excellent design of this rifle I think I will take another look at the semi-auto design. Thanks again.
That Century Arms slam was wonderful
You never fail to impress.
Very cool, love the action design! Thanks for sharing Ian.
Great video again my friend. Your videos teach me so much about guns. Its so nice to be able to watch gun videos on UA-cam that isn't some guy shooting an M4 at a sheet of paper.
Damn, first time I've ever heard Ian throw shade! "As if it was made by centry". Well said sir.
guns like this are the reason i like this chanel so much
That is one of the smoothest straight-pulls I have ever seen. And, 1894!??!!?? And Mexico!?? Getting help from the Swiss doesn't surprise me, but the fact that Mexico and not a German state fielding this is probably the most surprising thing. A good designer from Mexico doesn't surprise me though, all humans have the same brain and we are a resourceful and imaginative bunch when faced with a problem. I would actually be surprised if I didn't find creative inventors in every place on the earth.
Forgotten Weapons Thanks for highlighting this fascinating and remarkably advanced (for its time) firearm. I look forward to your videos. I am never sure what i might learn or be amazed/ammused by. Keep up the good work!
A truly fascinating and near fully forgotten weapon. Excellent!
I suppose the automatic feature would have been proven quite useful if someone was found in a very close range encounter, but they'd need time to actually switch it over to the automatic fire mode. There are still some moments when you'd think it could possibly save someone's life.
And you have to remember that the rifle was designed when assaults with massed ranks of infantry were still considered tactically viable. Pouring fire at close range before engaging with the bayonet was probably the intent behind the automatic setting.
ostiariusalpha Sort of like the original idea behind the BAR. Just a walking line of fire. I think Ian might of covered this?
"You don't want to reassemble this and discover you have the front sight canted like it was something made by Century" - Ian
SHOTS FIRED! :)
That gun is so freaking cool and unique. Pretty ahead of it's time too
Man that is a cool looking rifle, I love it! Everything i've seen designed by Mondragon is so cool looking and interesting. Really neat features and its essentially a Swiss gun. Love that straight-pull!
This gun is brilliant, especially for 1908.
I think ALR describe the status of the bolt when this ALR-handle is engaged in it´s various modes:
A = Aufschliessend (german for repeating / unlocking) aufschliessend means that something has to come next in line in order to move on a certain operation or action. I think this means the repeating cartrige, one is coming after another one till the mag is empty.
L = Lose (german for loose) the bolt is loose from the mechanism and cannot be cycled (e.g. safe)
R = Ruhend (german for resting) the bolt is resting in semi-auto mode, ready to manually be cycled. Or the bolt snaps back for semi-auto mode resting, ready to shoot again.
(these all are just guesses. I have no experience with this rifle)
teezee92 Auto, Locked, Ready? A pure guess. ^^
what a well made, clever and elegant rifle.
It's the Swiss K31's mother ;)
Esta' chulo de bonito
How we can get one ?
Very nice mexican made gun! So sad great Many Mondrago'n was involved in Decena Tra'gica.
Love straight pull riffles!
Everytime he says "simple" I heard "elegant". I love good design, and this thing seems very cleverly designed.
So many future firearms connections in one design. Coolness factor, extreme. Mondragon was one sharp individual.
I really liked that solid wood look...
"Like it was something made by Century..."
LULZ!
Shots fired!
Bertisevil666 I don't get it.
The quality that went into making this rifle is clearly more reminiscent of something made by Cobray lol
Time for all Ian's roasts montage xD
Savage af
“It just kinda looks Swiss”
Wow, it really does just kinda look... Swiss
shots fired at century arms
REexpert44 i like your profile image ...
Ivan Emrich thanks broham
Your pfp is from a great fkn video
That en-bloc of .45 auto is just adorable, I imagine a tiny broomhandle-garand hybrid pistol in .45 auto now
Examples like this are why i subscribe to this channel. Unbelievably interesting piece.
That "front piece of furniture" is amazing. It was probably the most expensive part. Beautiful rifle!
This is one of the most interesting rifles I've ever seen. Mr. Mondragon was quite a proficient arms designer. :)
Cartridge for the model 1893 is the mondragon 6.5x48 the mag was originally designed to hold 8 rounds, or rather the pre-production prototype rifles were.
The automatic feature was probably intended for a walking-fire type of infantry advance - something obviously outdated today, but immensely popular back in the early 1900s. The French Chauchat, British Lewis Gun, and American BAR were all designed with that in mind. Having the infantryman being able to do that as well would have been rather nice.
The walking fire you're thinking of as an infantry tactic came about 20 years after this rifle was developed. Examples of the use of defensive field works in 19th century warfare were significant more for their rarity, despite being completely practical.
ostiariusalpha I agree 1890 - 1910 were the golden years of fire arm development with many of the basic designs still used today. Straight pulls we simply a faster more efficient way to operate a rifle.
One of my favorite rifles you have shown
There was a 5.2mm Mondragon cartridge, with a very sharp shoulder, a long bullet that was seated in a washer over the powder. A collectors' book "Guns of the World" and a 1967 Guns & Ammo article refer to this unique round, which may have been this Mexican issue caliber. The 6.5mm of your specimen may have been a different chambering, serial number 1, as you mentioned, a prototype. (BTW: I'm going off rote memory, pardon me if I'm off on a detail.)
old necro, yeah.. anyways wikipedia details that Mondragon invented his own cartridge which was initially 6.5mm and while it was being manufactured by the Swiss the cartridge was changed to 5
Should be in a museum, #1 . Whooo
I wonder if that bolt influenced Johnson or Stoner at all. Sure looks like it could have. Great video as always. Thank you
seriously like this action
My first thought on the "automatic" position was of the Lee-Enfield and the practice of holding the bolt handle with the thumb and first two fingers while pulling the trigger with the last finger. I don't remember whether the British were training that "volley fire" technique at the 1895 introduction of the MLE, it seems like this Mondragon rifle could have been intended to provide the same capability more easily.
British soldiers were middle fingering their Lee-Enfields by 1914. But it was only taught officially from 1942.
And only for rapid fire, during close quarters combat.
"Like it was something made by Century"
I damn near pissed my pants laughing and trying to explain to my girlfriend why I was on the floor rolling.. good job! I needed that!
i love this channel one thing id love even more would be like an example of the cartridge the firearm shoots but ether way love the channel
I reckon it could be quite accurate, the front & rear locking design should greatly reduce play in the bolt giving a more consistent bolt-face alignment. The offset nature of the lugs evenly spreads the locking force.
That bolt could be the key to super-accurate long range snipers.
That action should be hellish strong with 2 sets of locking lugs, also the action seems smooth functioning and no way as with the Ross to misassemble the bolt
And no delicate threading inside.
That automatic feature is actually pretty dope if you had a scope on it or a good line of sight you could just run the bolt and lay down a bunch of suppressing fire real quick
Now add just a gas tube and let the selector operate a disconnector and you got a pretty modern gun.
Had Mondragon worked in the US he might have done many more designs and even without an early military adoption of them would have served the larger commercial market pretty well.
An interesting rifle to be sure. However I don't see much in the guns mechanism that would supply any initial camming power for primary extraction. I'm guessing all the primary extraction power resides in the shooters right bicep. It's never a problem unless you get a sticky case. Soft brass,battlefield dirt and a pressure jump fromm smoking hot barrels make this more likely. Still Senor Mondragon sounds like an interesting guy and I'm inspired to read more about him.
The info and presentation are always solid! Just need to remember to adjust volume between FW and other videos or get blasted into space. 😁
As a leftie, i really like the idea of taking out one step for cycling the gun, much more easy "probably less reliable but whatever" than the open, pull, push, lock of the mauser family like i needed to learn.
Man, the O.G. AR-10/15 bolt!
Cool rifle.
It is probably much better than the later Ross strait pull rifle.
If you consider the bolt to be the "trigger" then it is technically semiautomatic although it gives new meaning to "pull the trigger"
As for machining the locking lugs on the bolt, that would not be a terribly difficult thing to do...
First, the machinist would turn the rings that would become the lugs to size on the lathe - probably after another machinist had bored out the blanks.
Then, another machinist would take the intermediate blanks to the horizontal mill, and cut the slots through the rings to make the lugs, using and indexer to ensure even angular spacing. Since the lugs are out of phase between the front and back sets, that's two milling operations.
In a modern shop, the whole thing could be done on a CNC lathe, but those obviously did not exist back then... ;^)
Mondragon also designed a Cannon to protect the ports from foreign attacks, he designed the Mondragon Cannon and sent the blueprints to Germany, where Krupp company made it and then imported it to protect the port of Salina Cruz. It proven to be very dangerous, and prevented an American secret invasion when the cannon successfully shot down a Tinclad. Later on the US done some treaty to prevent another war from unleashing, and one of the things americans wanted was removing Mondragon's Krupp Canon from Salina Cruz, so it was then sold to Turkey. He aslo designed the Saint Chamond-Mondragón, a light artillery piece to fight agains revolutionaires. When he was exiled the artillery design was trashed from Mexico, but it survived and Israeli troops used the design during 1948 arab-israaeli war. three of the artillery pieces survived the war and can be found at Batey ha-OSEF museum in Tel Aviv, other in Beit ha-Gdudim Museum and Moshav Avihayil.
Who Could imagine that a mexican engineer was the pioneer of the actual fire arms?
@J H are they easy to get
After seeing the last video about the same gun... So this is what the No.1 of Model 2B..... Interesting
It's an open-bolt select-fire gun.
An SMG?
No, it's a full-power rifle.
Unusual. Is it delayed blowback action?
No, it's bolt action.
Very interesting. Different means different, neither better or worse, simply not the same as something else. World wide plumbing or electrical plug ins are great examples.
Did engaging the rapid fire switch on a closed bolt drop the firing pin? It looked like the trigger went back
dustyak79 Yes, it would fire when the switch was moved to Rapid.
Forgotten Weapons Yikes
RabidMortal1 I think you would switch it to full auto before you close the bolt making it more safe.
It seems like a third setting that serves as a complete opposite of the safety.
I love hearing about the history of who and how a gun was made but I kinda would love to hear the over all history of where these guns have been and who owned them down thru history. I bet a lot of these guns have a very interesting history and stories.
Would love to see this on the range!
Wow, nice piece
Forgets full auto is on, proceeds to load .45 acp into rifle. Closes bolt and Alas the Thompson is born
Seems like the ram firing feature would be better on the defensive. Rest it on a low wall or using a bipod. You could more accurately lay down rapid fire.
Hi there Ian, I greatly appreciate your videos and I greatly appreciate your education. I have a request: Would you be able to do a video on Mexican Mauser Rifles? Kindest regards always, ~Keith Erickson
thumbs up for the century joke.
This is a fascinating rifle. It would be interesting to know more about it's history: why didn't a fine rifle like this become a commercial success? Also, I am gonna be a gunsmith in several years. and I am feeling that after I get enough experience, I will be making one for myself.
This, oddly, has to be my favorite rifle I have seen on here. Is there a simiauto rifle with that kind of bolt?
This rifle looks like a 8x56 steyr and early swiss 1911 mix with the drop clip and 6.5 ammo. It would look really good in my rifle collection
There was also a prototype Enfield carbine with a “slam fire” setting.
I think the "automatic" slam-fire mode would be useful during a snap shooting match*, presuming that a sight picture can be maintained while cycling the bolt.
.
* red circle targets 30cm in diameter which can only be shot at while they are "open" (facing the shooter), but not when closed (sideways, edge-on). I believe it was intended to simulate shooting at enemy heads that could suddenly appear over a trench lip. The match usually has the targets open for 4 seconds and then closed for 4 seconds, repeated 5 times.
The early small ring mauser 98's and the Mendosa pistols are also very interesting from mexico.
Fascinating. Great Job
the bolt and camming system are the predecessor to the auto rifle. just add a recoil spring, and gas piston to the bold handle.
The century remark 😂😂😂😂LMAO,Good one.
I've love to get my hands on a straight-pull rifle. Love the depiction of them in Metro: Last Light.
Graeme Philips K31s are quite inexpensive, and very high quality. In addition, you can get match grade surplus GP11 for $0.50/round. In my opinion, they are the best kept secret of the WWII surplus world. I recently bought a K31 from Simpson LTD. $320 with shipping to my gun store.
No I'm not worried about it at all. I just had my K31 out doing some 700 yard shooting this morning, and getting reliable hits on a 10" gong at that distance.
Like the article stated, some K31s made around 1944 were given operating rods made out of inferior steel. I am aware of this problem, and its safety implications. If I had a K31 that might have been affected then I would just replace the rod. Mine is a 1940 production K31 though, so it was made with the proper steel.
In addition, the bolt throw of the K31 is very smooth. If anything breaks or you have to force it closed, you will definitely know that something is wrong. Being an alert and aware shooter will keep you safe in virtually all situations like this.
They are super reliable, affordable, and accurate guns. And perfectly safe in my opinion. I would recommend a K31 to anybody who wants an affordable and high quality introduction to the milsurp market.
Ben Aguilar Aw, man, that actually sounds affordable... If only "hobbyist shooting" was reason enough to register a weapon in Poland... Instead you have to go through hoops and register into some hunting society or something to have a "legitimate" reason to have a gun... Damn it.
One of the coolest rifles reviewed lately. Seems like Mondragon was a solid weapon maker who was in the wrong country. I wonder if his designs would have prospered had he been in a location that could get better quality ammunition for his semi-auto designs?
Ian, no it is not complicated to machine the locking lugs on the bolt. You take stock material with outer diameter the same or greater as the outer diameter of the lugs, then you turn down the ends and the middle and then you cut with an endmill between the lugs, and of course you drill out the inner diameter. Simple...
I wonder who won this thing? I think it is far advanced over anything built in its' time period. I certainly wish I could afford to get one.
Good for a Mad Minute run?
Mondragón , the accent is in the second o
Gracias
Very cool. Way ahead of its time IMHO. Only thing I would change is to move that handle further back and increase the magazine capacity if possible.
that is a bautiful piece of rifle
Any idea why this design never caught on?
very very bulky
It wasn't the bulk. The gun was *very* prone to jamming from grit and debris, which is unacceptable in a combat rifle. The Swiss Schmidt-Rubin straight pull rifle was much better enclosed and reliable.
For the same reason that none of the straight pull designs was widely
adopted,the brass were apprehensive in having issues with the bolt locking
after extented use,or in case the bolt handle is hit accidently
John Bonaros Have you ever heard of Steyr-Mannlicher? Have you ever heard of Schmidt-Rubin?
Bowman08 The Canadian Ross in 303 British is another example. Of these three examples the Swiss operates smooth, the Ross is nor too bad but the Steyr operation is ahh... to put it mildly rather clunky.
So simple, easy and not even a Canadian can get it wrong. Makes the Ross Rifle look even more ridiculous.
I suspect that 'auto' feature was intended for crowd suppression. Nobody was thinking in terms of World War 1 style 'over the top, no mans land crossing' suppressive fire.. but marching fire from the hip while advancing on crowds in a plaza... was probably a consideration.